Cherie

Women aren't all about the physical. Are you treating her like you want to keep her? Are you doing things you did to attract her in the beginning? IMO it's not fair when a spouse stops. It's like false advertising. if you missed that part of my post, it was a waste of my time.

If the approaches you are taking and the approaches people are telling you are not working, then you're SOL and your wife is an ice cube, or you just don't do it for her. Good luck to you with that one.

Catherine602

I have fallen off numerous times. I get up and get back on and work in my riding skills. I expect a lot of myself and I need lots of hard work to get there.

__________________
"Hey some guys need a book to find the G-spot. It was intuitive for me. Some take the road less travelled." Enthropy 3000

WorkingOnMe

I do think it's important to recognize the difference between incremental progress and side-stepping. Catherine's advice is probably pretty good for the first few years of marriage. But I don't think that creating a comfortable environment will lead to any real gains in the long run. It's much more likely to create complacency.

A man's patience can only go so far. Creating a safe nurturing comfortable bedroom and building trust for years sounds great. But if you do all those things and decades later you've seen no change, well, it's time to either move on or shake things up a bit. People only grow when they're pushed.

DTO

I agree that the problem is with expectations, but not in the way you propose. I tend to think of it as an immaturity problem on the part of repressed spouses. They have the mindset of "it's dirty", etc. and then compound it with "my wants are more important than his / hers, so I don't have to do it at all". They take what should be a loving and giving act and see it as a referendum of themselves as people (I am dirty if I do this).

I like Dr. Schnarch's take on this. I've read Passionate Marriage, and I believe it is mentioned in Intimacy and Desire as well. Essentially, the person being denied needs to be steadfast and true to himself / herself and force a decision point for the repressed spouse - grow up and be 100% present in the relationship or risk losing it.

The part about women's wants is a bit of a red herring. The problem is that the woman's needs cannot be met by the man on his own. He needs to have a relatively uncommon skill set and somebody willing to hire him. If he simply is not talented in the right way and cannot convince someone to hire him, he is incapable of providing that lifestyle. But almost all women (and men) are born with the equipment necessary to provide a good sex life. All that is needed is a bit of education, willingness to please, and a minimal investment in time (a few hours a week).

Also, most of us are not sublimating a woman's preferences with our own. We are merely seeking to be on equal footing. Somewhere along the way, many of us came to believe that if a woman's sexual preferences are preeminent 100% of the time that is merely appropriate sex, and that a 50/50 split between his wants and hers is inappropriate if not abusive.

The reason men don't accept sexual changes very well is that (1) there is an implicit element of deception and (2) such changes are generally imposed and not negotiated. Sex is put on a pedestal and proclaimed to be sacred - not subject to the same rules of give and take as other marriage issues. Repressed spouses are quick to take back and deny sex because they no longer want to have it but are reluctant to admit that forgoing a satisfying sex life is a significant sacrifice deserving an equally large sacrifice.

Whether the deception is done from a willingness to please or simply for deception per se, it is deception nonetheless. Both men and women sacrifice in marriage. You either make the necessary sacrifices, wait for someone to come along for whom minimal sacrifices are required, or stay single. If you agree to conform, realize you did so willingly and honor your commitment; don't rail about how unfair the system is or how the deception is understandable (if not acceptable). No one is entitled to lie to another person like this for personal gain - period. There is no outcome of marriage so great as to make this acceptable.

Personally, I can tell you there is a huge difference between someone who says "I said I would, but now I won't, and if you don't like it I'll see you in court" and one who contritely says "I'm very sorry I misrepresented myself, I realize I am asking for a big sacrifice in asking you to accomodate me in this manner, tell me what else I can do for you to make it not seem one-sided."

DTO

Agree.

Would add that if a repressed woman is going to open up, it probably will start to happen within the first few months of the relationship. Otherwise it won't happen at all.

This is based on personal experience and reading about it on this site and othes.

There is a huge difference between nurturing a satisfying sexual relationship, and always having an uphill battle because the other person does not want to meet you halfway.

Sawney Beane

I feel it's slightly disingenous to believe that someone can't tell the difference between:

"I'll do something I don't like and am not very comfortable with because I love you" and

"I'm doing this, under protest, and wish to send the very clear message that I find the mere fact that you asked me to do it deplorable".

__________________
Can you rokker Romani chib, pal?
Aye, aye, brother!
What's Weshenjuggalslomomengreskeytemskeytudlogueri?
I don't know what you say, brother.
Then you don't jin Romani chib...

Sawney Beane

No, it doesn't. At the end of the day, nobody can make anyone else self-confident, sexually or otherwise. That HAS to come from within. I agree he can build a climate she can learn confidence in, but unless she wants to do it, it doesn't happen.

In the final analysis, he can make matters much better, or much worse. But the result itself is within her gift, not his.

__________________
Can you rokker Romani chib, pal?
Aye, aye, brother!
What's Weshenjuggalslomomengreskeytemskeytudlogueri?
I don't know what you say, brother.
Then you don't jin Romani chib...

sinnister

Really? He was foolish to want his wife to enjoy sex?

CandieGirl

OP, I feel your pain...my H who loooooves porn, is pretty 'vanilla'...I try to get him doing new things, but it's really all on me. He might go along with certain ideas, but he certainly won't try something new on his own. I think they're just wired one way, and it's almost impossible to get them to change.

michzz

Wow, you really are so offbase it is not funny.

You interpret a discussion with a trusted confidant as trash talking?

I've known this person a long time and it was anything but.

You missed the boat on just about every point, sorry.

soconfused1984

just have her read: "fifty shades of grey" by L.E. James.....if that doesn't work...then you read it...it has worked for every woman i now who has read it lol!!!

Catherine602

Sawney

I think that a man who marries a good girl and avoids women who enjoy their sexuality gets what he wanted . He may expect his good girl to pop open like a wh@re- in-the-box just in time to eeeefff him silly. But does that really seem reasonable?

Men are much more uninhibited with their sexuality and they enjoy it with the blessing of our culture. Who better to lead an that inhibited woman he loves to the enjoyment of her sexuality. If he is willing to take the responsibility to do it lovingly and with patience.

He can do that or or sit and rage against her when she does not perform like the woman he did not marry.

I know what I am talking about. I was like this men's wife when I got married. I am relatively uninhibited now. I still have work to do but it has been a satisfying and fun journey of discovery.

I cannot credit myself though. My husband was patient and never angry with me. Every little timid step I made he acted as if I made his day. I look back and cringe because I was so pathetic. He was great and still is.

I felt safe to make mistakes or to feel uncomfortable. I knew we would just laugh about it and try again. If he got angry and frustrated, we probably would not still be married.

__________________
"Hey some guys need a book to find the G-spot. It was intuitive for me. Some take the road less travelled." Enthropy 3000

Cee Paul

Speaking from experiences a lot of times couples do things in the very beginning of their marriage or relationship that they may not enjoy so much, but they wanna get things started on a really good note but later on that all begins to taper off sometimes. And my wife is just not the wild/kinky type and trust me I have tried all the achohol, foreplay, and pillow talk that I could possibly do to bring it all out buuuuut - ain't happening. *SIGH*

michzz

I think there is a big difference between sexual timidity and passive hostility and anger over sharing an assertively intimate moment.

It's a very complex form of rejection.

3leafclover

This thread makes me feel so dang lucky. I knew my partner was the wild/kinky type or I never would have entered into a committed relationship with her, but there are some activities I've discovered interest in over the years that she initially had very little personal interest in. Not only has she always been willing to try pretty much anything, but she never fails to grow to enjoy anything that brings me enjoyment. It becomes exciting to her because it excites me. This is important to me because I would never be satisfied with a sexual partner just participating for my benefit only if they were getting no pleasure from the act themselves. If they don't want to be participating, then I don't want them to participate. Distaste from them or reluctance borne of distaste during kinky sex would be an automatic and complete turn-off, making continuing pointless since then nobody would be having any fun.

My partner doesn't just do things I like to get me off. She gets off on doing things to get me off, and vice versa. I can't imagine any other way. Oh, wait, yes I can. It was very different with my ex-husband, more like the way some wives are described in this thread. He was too vanilla. So let me rephrase: I wouldn't settle for any other way. I made that promise to myself after my divorce. I was tempted to break it a time or two, but I'm glad I didn't. However, the divorce wasn't my choice, so if he hadn't ended it, I could see myself here complaining about how very vanilla he still is now after 14 years.