Sex in MarriageSexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.
I think there is a major point that men may not understand about women, in general. Sex for us can be so amazing, heavenly, okay, whatever, painful, etc...
depending on so many things. See, as blunt as this will sound, we are being invaded. We just are.
Most times, if in a great relationship we don't think of it that way, but if things aren't feeling right, it's an invasion on our very, very personal space & feels that way. It doesn't always feel good..I think to men, it usually does, so they just cannot always understand us.
My H the other night commented that he doesn't know how having his big c*** inside of me can feel good..lol.
If I'm primed mentally & physically, then it's INCREDIBLE. If not, it doesn't do much for me. If we are at an emotional disconnect, those same moves in bed aren't doing it.
If we are open to eachother & doing our BEST to appreciate eachother in many ways other than in the sack, it's glorious.
It's our mind-set, as we all know, and it should be a man's too. Otherwise, it can feel empty..
I spent 6 months making sure my H loved ME, for me & not just because he wanted me for sex. So we waited that long to do it.
(Most) girls are conditioned to honor themselves & make sure we don't give up the precious goods unless we are absolutely certain the guy appreciates us & is grateful for us.
That means he is appreciating the girl for WHO she is, not just for her t*** & a** & how good of a BJ she can deliver or how often she'll give it up or anything of the sort.
When women go nuts & start walking all over these men who say they tried this & it got them nowhere, it's because she's not appreciating you, right? At this point, I agree with pulling back a bit to recreate some balance. But we cannot just blame the women- if you're here on TAM, you probably know there is room for improvement on both ends.
I don't think it's always a game- people can just fall into a comfy place by default..& by their SO allowing it. But then things seems to get out of control.
At some point along the way, maybe the women wind up feeing unappreciated, for ex: when her man says, "well, I did this & this around the house, took care of the kids, listened to you, etc.." so she should at least give me sex... fair trade right?
Wrong.
'Doing' things 'for her' like that don't count in that way. I cook, clean, raise children, etc..it's all important, as is the man's contribution to the home & family, because those things need to be done & we are supposed to take care of them.
I'm doing them with no expectation for return..appreciation is good though(:
I appreciate my H very much for contributing in all the ways he can. But the minute we get the impression that the man's primary motivation for being a helpful, attentive man is getting laid, that sucks the passion right out for a woman. Right out. It's feels like a scam.
In fact what happens sometimes- women will do it less, as we know, to make sure her man is there for the right reasons, not just for her sex.
Soo, this whole Athol controversy, seems to hit some women in the gut- guiding (only unsuspecting) men to treat us like f*** toys, exactly what we DON'T want.
Granted, yes, I do see some slight benefits to his approach, but I see too many pot-holes to make it something to rely on. I worry about the d-bag that subscribes & begins thinking that he too should be getting laid every day dammit, it's what he deserves..or is it??
Because if we are all totally honest- the MAIN objective of Athol's writings are to get men laid more- period. (Being laid more is not at all a bad thing, IMO)
Problem is it's not to create intimacy with your wife, not to bond with her, but to create fear in her, a gap between, have her wonder about why you are distant & then hopefully have her submit sexually to you.
Even if it happens..under what pretenses?
You're fooling her into wanting you- maybe that's cool with some.
If I were a guy that truly cared for & loved my woman, I'd explore an alternate path..
I understand some women act cold & complacent & need to gain new perspective in treating their SO fairly, so it coerces a guy to do whatever it takes.
However, tread carefully with this stuff, remember two wrongs don't make a right.
I can say I am 100% aware that sex for men is equivalent to feeling our love. I see that & it makes perfect sense. For us to open up our world to you in that way is very, incredibly intimate & heavenly when it happens naturally without manipulation or feeling too contrived..it just sounds like such a mission from some here that I think the real formula is being over-looked.
We, as women, just need to feel & know that you want us, we ARE SPECIAL in many ways OTHER THAN looks & sexuality.
Just as men would be terribly disappointed & turned off if they thought woman were on a constant mission to have you bring home the big bucks.
It would give you the impression that we don't really care that it's YOU bringing home the bacon, as long as someone's doing it.
It just doesn't feel genuine.
Appreciation, respect & emotional intimacy get into our hearts like love & can work magic.
Btw--there is a recent post on 'no emotional intimacy' here & if you read the comments, you'll see how lack of that one thing can kill a sex-life.
It's a BIGGIE, IMO. Posted via Mobile Device
And this is where 90% of the people in this thread are missing the point. Married Man Sex Life is about improving yourself to be the man she needs for comfort, security, attraction and love in order to create a sexual, loving ENVIRONMENT. It's not just about "getting pùssy." If it's done properly, the wife's attraction and love increases. No one is being abused or taken advantage of.
Point taken, but let's not be obtuse: it's all about getting laid. The improvement is a tool to do that. Banging on about it being all about being the best men is letting the tail wag the dog. The premise is "Get laid by being the best man you can, whether by your wife or her replacement", not vice-versa.
Only if you want to ignore everything else. For a whole lot of men (me included), sex with their wife is incredibly important for the marriage. When the sex fades, they feel their marriage slipping away and don't know how to deal with it.
Yes, the MMSL uses sex to draw them in then hits on the overall change (just like a diet book may advertise the six pack abs, then goes into overall fitness and nutrition). Reading it, many men see that their wanting sex is not just about getting their rocks off, but about a bond with their wife.
So if you assume that wanting sex with your wife is a bad thing, then I whole heartedly agree that the MMSL is an awful concept. But if you are oaky with that, then I suggest that arguing that the whole book is tainted is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Hmm...have any of the critics in this thread actually read MMSL?
Hands please?
I only ask because I hear a lot of arguing against strawmen but not much valid criticism.
It laeds me to believe those knocking down the strawmen haven`t actually read the book.
My thoughts exactly. It's like they don't have n opinion, their opinion has them. Instead of knowing the information to argue it, they argue how something makes them feel without basing it on anything concrete.
To me, saying "you're a b* when you are pregnant," is flying off the handle to a degree where I'd be uncomfortable being pregnant around a man who would say such a thing, and there would need to be some hard work to get me to come back. YMMV.
I'm curious to know what it is about pregnancy that renders many women so mentally enfeebled that they are unable to hear harsh language. I'm not an expert on pregnancy, but I am unaware of whatever this mechanism is that converts strong, independent women into quivering sacks of flesh.
However, in the interest of being helpful, I seriously suggest to these women who become deathly afraid of swear words while they are pregnant that they should spend their pregnancies locked away in the highest room of the tallest tower of some far away kingdom surrounded by moats and briars and impenetrable woods and unscalable walls. Because the real world is just too harsh and terrifying for these pregnant women.
ocotillo- my point was to express a random woman's POV & to lend some insight into why women can seem so difficult sometimes.
If we begin discussing how the imbalance in a relationship 'started' it will revert to a 'he said, 'she said' argument which will go in circles & resolve nothing.
Exactly! --Which is why I said that 'one person has to give.' Pragmatically speaking, the person who has to give is the person who wants the change in the first place. As far as Kay's target demographic is concerned, that is the sexually frustrated man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma*girl
Why not re-post the the main points of my post..like appreciating your woman for who she is first, then sexual relations have space to resume naturally, etc..
I certainly don't disagree with those observations. They were spot on.
But the man who has wrung his hands and racked his brains and laid awake at night over why his wife is no longer attracted to him to the point where he's going out and buying self-help books usually realizes the truthfulness of what you've said already. Even if he doesn't, that's one of the first things any book on the subject will tell him. (Including the book in question here.)
Unfortunately, there is more to the psychology of attraction than that. You can connect with your wife emotionally and she can still find you about as sexually interesting as an ice-cold, unsweetened bowl of lumpy oatmeal.
I spent 6 months making sure my H loved ME, for me & not just because he wanted me for sex. So we waited that long to do it.
(Most) girls are conditioned to honor themselves & make sure we don't give up the precious goods unless we are absolutely certain the guy appreciates us & is grateful for us.
Good for you. You are correct that many girls give up the goods way too early. It's impossible for a women to extract any level of commitment from a man within the first few weeks of dating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma*girl
At some point along the way, maybe the women wind up feeing unappreciated, for ex: when her man says, "well, I did this & this around the house, took care of the kids, listened to you, etc.." so she should at least give me sex... fair trade right?
Wrong.
Ironically, it's usually the women who are proposing the sex for favors deals. Most husbands have heard the, "I would be in the mood for sex more often if I just didn't have so much on my plate," speech that wives use to justify quitting their jobs, or getting housekeepers, or having the husband take on the wife's chores. And you're correct that it doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma*girl
I appreciate my H very much for contributing in all the ways he can. But the minute we get the impression that the man's primary motivation for being a helpful, attentive man is getting laid, that sucks the passion right out for a woman. Right out. It's feels like a scam.
You have to be careful here. The fact is that sex is a primary emotional need for men. One of the primary reasons that men get married is to have a long-term sex partner. If that is a scam, then marriage is a scam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma*girl
Soo, this whole Athol controversy, seems to hit some women in the gut- guiding (only unsuspecting) men to treat us like f*** toys, exactly what we DON'T want.
Athol's general advice is for men to treat their wives the way their wives need to be treated. To provide the things that will build both attraction and comfort in the marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma*girl
Problem is it's not to create intimacy with your wife, not to bond with her, but to create fear in her, a gap between, have her wonder about why you are distant & then hopefully have her submit sexually to you.
Even if it happens..under what pretenses?
Athol preaches oxytocin pair-bonding quite often. It's half of his strategy. As for destabilizing the relationship, he wouldn't suggest it if it didn't work.
Try a thought experiment. Do you want your husband to be very attractive to yourself and other women? Or would you prefer him to be unattractive to other women, and therefore much less attractive to you, as well? Most women would want their husband to be in demand. A perfect 10. However, if your husband is in demand, then you know that, if you treat him shabbily, he can easily replace you with another women who may be younger, more attractive, and nicer to him.
So, in this case, you get what you want (a husband who is attractive to you and other women), and your husband gets what he wants (you treat him nicely to keep him happy and faithful).
There's nothing fake, or underhanded, or manipulative, or contrived about that approach. It's natural. It's biological. And it's effective.
Women don't just say hey, I'm not having sex with my hubby for the hell of it.
Obviously, something goes on between the two that eventually makes it a lower priority for her & news flash: it doesn't always have to do with her husband.
Sometimes unfortunately it's out of his power.
When my hubs is stressed bad, nothing I do can help him get hard or feel up to it.
That's life.
Pulling the insecure card though means zilch here.
Women are conditioned to learn that men want us mainly for sex..even in adulthood, we know it...of course in a wonderful, committed relationship, we are valued for many, many other reasons..we know this too.
But to insist on being appreciated beyond our sexuality is not insecurity, it's standing up for our personal rights & asking to be valued.
FYI- I am a woman who is HD most of the time- I get the importance of a sexual relationship..I Need it too.
The beauty of it is that my husband doesn't obsess, therefore it's a natural occurrence.
I suppose that's the point most men are working towards & rightfully so.
As far as my closeness comment, I did not mean physically or in a smothering emotional way- I understand that too much of that will surely dampen attraction, from either side.
It isn't that you should try being overly-sweet & unfairly accommodating to your women, but maybe consider letting them into YOUR minds & hearts & being vulnerable for her.
That builds the emotional intimacy some woman want/need to open up to a man. It always goes both ways.
Some men have done this & ....nothing. I'm sorry for that. It must be ridiculously frustrating.
I still maintain that if my sex-life was low on my priority list, then on top of that my hubby started pulling away, I would call his bluff & pull away further- but that's just me. Posted via Mobile Device
I'm curious to know what it is about pregnancy that renders many women so mentally enfeebled that they are unable to hear harsh language. I'm not an expert on pregnancy, but I am unaware of whatever this mechanism is that converts strong, independent women into quivering sacks of flesh.
However, in the interest of being helpful, I seriously suggest to these women who become deathly afraid of swear words while they are pregnant that they should spend their pregnancies locked away in the highest room of the tallest tower of some far away kingdom surrounded by moats and briars and impenetrable woods and unscalable walls. Because the real world is just too harsh and terrifying for these pregnant women.
I don't call my husband a ****weed even when he's being a ****weed because it's unproductive and it's just mean. Saying "you're a ****weed" pretty much gets me nowhere.
If my husband had a condition where he became more emotionally susceptible to, oh anything, calling him a ****weed would be unproductive and really mean. Especially if I was 50% of the cause of the emotionally susceptible condition.
If calling your wife a b!tch works for you, thumbs up. I'd prefer a less hostile discussion all the way around, pregnant or not.
Women don't just say hey, I'm not having sex with my hubby for the hell of it.
Obviously, something goes on between the two that eventually makes it a lower priority for her & news flash: it doesn't always have to do with her husband.
Sometimes unfortunately it's out of his power.
When my hubs is stressed bad, nothing I do can help him get hard or feel up to it.
That's life.
You are correct that most women don't withhold sex for any sadistic reasons. That doesn't mean women are justified for withholding sex.
And I imagine that, if you husband is not in the mood for sex, then he doesn't blame you for withholding sex. That's not what we're talking about in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma*girl
Pulling the insecure card though means zilch here.
Women are conditioned to learn that men want us mainly for sex..even in adulthood, we know it...of course in a wonderful, committed relationship, we are valued for many, many other reasons..we know this too.
But to insist on being appreciated beyond our sexuality is not insecurity, it's standing up for our personal rights & asking to be valued.
It's good that women understand men's sexual motivations. And you're correct that husbands value their wives for reasons beyond sex. However, the time for evaluating your husband's commitment and appreciation of you for reasons other than sex is when you are dating. Once you are married, you have agreed to have sex with him. It's cruel for a wife to announce random spot checks where she will be ignoring a primary emotional need of her husband's by withholding sex to verify that he married her for the reasons she thinks he should have married her. That's no different than MEM's example of a man quitting his job to verify that his wife isn't a gold-digger.
Again- it goes back & forth..
I'm not advocating that either point is more valid than the other- just trying to shed light on the female psyche..of course not representative of all.
That POV, cannot be argued.
Withholding sex is wrong, obsessing over sex, wrong also.
Sex in marriage is magical when approached properly- these points keep coming up as if I think otherwise.
Sex is necessary in marriage! Yes, I know this. Thank you, moving on... Posted via Mobile Device
--Not deliberately trying to be pedantic here, but that's simply cruel.
If you were to quit eating entirely; food would be all you could think about in three days or less. I guarantee it. After about a week, you would probably begin to hallucinate about it as well.
Is that obsession? It depends on your viewpoint. One person's obsession is another persons' important need.
I went a week without food once. I went a year and a half without sex in an otherwise amicable relationship. If I had to pick one of the episodes to repeat again, I'd pick the former. It was easier and over more quickly.
Again- it goes back & forth..
I'm not advocating that either point is more valid than the other- just trying to shed light on the female psyche..of course not representative of all.
That POV, cannot be argued.
Withholding sex is wrong, obsessing over sex, wrong also.
Sex in marriage is magical when approached properly- these points keep coming up as if I think otherwise.
Sex is necessary in marriage! Yes, I know this. Thank you, moving on...
Hey Karma*girl, I get where you are trying to come from. and I think wives who aren't habitual witholders are in the boat of well, here are some reasons why (I) as a spouse who occasionally turns down sex may be coming from.
I think everybody understands that there are completely valid reasons to turn down sex and I don't think MMSL is trying to push the angle of "your wife sucks if she turns you down, here are surefire ways to get you laiiid brah."
I think a lot of the people who are advocates of MMSL and who it has worked for are people who's wives are habitual witholders for whatever reason and MMSL tries to delve into these reasons and find a solution. The solutions make no sense to wives who aren't habitual witholders and in fact can make sexually active wives angry about being manipulated just for more sex even when the current sex is plentiful and enthusiastic. Some of the solutions aren't even directed towards the woman, but towards the man so that he can better deal with a wife who is perpetually witholding and realize that no matter her reason it's not okay.
It's just not directed towards women who are currently enjoying lots of happy sex with their husbands.
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