Sex in MarriageSexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.
I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother.
All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.
After he died my mother began to talk about what happened. She had no skills and she sacrificed for us and remained with him.
The lives of myself and my mother, sister and brother were adversely effected by a cheating father. It screwed up our lives. It was my entire childhood. I had to take care of my mother I had to watch her suffer and try to be the best I could be. I wanted to make her happy so badly. I had no childhood.
I am trying to forgive my father. I know he did not love us and was only concerned about himself. But I am trying to find a way to forgive him for bringing me into the world to be so miserable.
I would rather die than do anything to hurt my husband and kids.
When our marriage was troubled, I met a man who I could have fallen in love with if I were not married. We had a lot in common and there was a strong attraction between us.
He was doing a postdoc in my lab. As soon as I realized what was happening, I had him transferred to another lab. It was not easy to do because I felt happy when he was there. However, I avoided him and was cordial but cool when we met.
I know my father could have loved us enough to forgo the cheating. If I can do it for the sake of my family, anyone can.
I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother.
All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.
After he died my mother began to talk about what happened. She had no skills and she sacrificed for us and remained with him.
The lives of myself and my mother, sister and brother were adversely effected by a cheating father. It screwed up our lives. It was my entire childhood. I had to take care of my mother I had to watch her suffer and try to be the best I could be. I wanted to make her happy so badly. I had no childhood.
I am trying to forgive my father. I know he did not love us and was only concerned about himself. But I am trying to find a way to forgive him for bringing me into the world to be so miserable.
I would rather die than do anything to hurt my husband and kids.
When our marriage was troubled, I met a man who I could have fallen in love with if I were not married. We had a lot in common and there was a strong attraction between us.
He was doing a postdoc in my lab. As soon as I realized what was happening, I had him transferred to another lab. It was not easy to do because I felt happy when he was there. However, I avoided him and was cordial but cool when we met.
I know my father could have loved us enough to forgo the cheating. If I can do it for the sake of my family, anyone can.
Catherine, I am sorry for this. My father was an abusive alcoholic. He was never around to guide me on being a man and was not a good example of a father or a husband. Did he cheat? Maybe. I did not speak with him for ten years after leaving home.
We have chatted and I think you are one of the most together people around. You are a wonderful person. I understand your hurts and appreciate the efforts you do make on this forum to bring men and women together instead of battling each other.
But this is not what Athol is about. I assume you are responding to a poster who said how he felt.
So I grew up being taught to be a nice guy. Then I spent eight years in the Navy and got a whole new perspective. Both had some benefits. But both were extremes. I think a good guy emerged form that combo. I wish however I had a father who showed me by example how to be a loving husband. So I had to figure it out on my own. I wish I had a book like MMSL way back when.
I think most marriages need all they help they can get. It is not easy.
I see many marriages as being abusive. There are all kinds of abuse.
It takes two loving people with a clue to succeed.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
Last edited by Entropy3000; 05-29-2012 at 10:30 PM.
I find great irony in the fact that your entire post is validation of Athol Kays portrait of what men are up against concerning the unrealistic point of view of relationships women are brainwashed into believing.
Athol himself couldn`t have scripted a better example.
As for success stories, I have been living by the principles MMSL espouses for my entire life in one form or another.
Women respond well to it pretty much universally within western culture.
You will have to explain why a book grounded in the imagination of a Athol could be validated by anything I wrote.
OK, if you believe in fairy airy tales, maybe. It like those prince charming fables that guys allude to so often. You have the male version of magical thinking.
Of course you were successful in improving your relationship. You were willing to work hard at it. I'll bet if you think about it the answers came from many sources. If you never read the book you would have succeeded because you were ready to make it happen.
I am certain there is advice in the book that is very good and helped. But do you think he came up with it? You can tell the difference between what he invented and what he borrowed from other sources.
Catherine, I am sorry for this. My father was an abusive alcoholic. He was never around to guide me on being a man and was not a good example of a father or a husband. Did he cheat? Maybe.
We have chatted and I think you are one of the most together people around. You are a wonderful person.
But what does this have to do with Athol? I assume you are responding to a poster who said how he felt.
So I grew up being taught to be a nice guy. Then I spent eight years in the Navy and got a whole new perspective. Both had some benefits. But both were extremes. I think a good guy emerged form that combo. I wish however I had a father who showed me by example how to be a loving husband. So I had to figure it out on my own. I wish I had a book like MMSL way back when.
I think most marriages need all they help they can get. It is not easy.
I see many marriages as being abusive. There are all kinds of abuse.
It takes two loving people with a clue to succeed.
Cheating is wrong on every level.
Thank you for saying that E. It is very kind of you. I know we clash sometimes and it is big of you to say anything positive and supportive. I go though these periods of sadness that I am frankly sick of. I no longer bother my husband with them. I come here and rant. (sorry).
My husband and I grew up together in the same neighborhood. He and his family have helped me enormously. I have learned to self soothe.
I think the chaos of an alcoholic parent is worse than a cheating one. To come from that to be the man you are now amazes me. You have done so well. Thanks for telling me, it is an inspiration for me to do better.
We have chatted by PM and you have no idea how your kindness and wisdom in your post and in our PM's have helped me.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
You will have to explain why a book grounded in the imagination of a Athol could be validated by anything I wrote.
Because it`s not grounded in his imagination.
It`s a fact that our women are given absolutely false information about everything from sex/body image/relationships/ and mens needs/wants to how to raise children.
Athol points these false beliefs out and informs men how to get around them without opposing their women`s entire world view.
It also points out the false beliefs our men are brainwashed into and how to drop them.
Quote:
OK, if you believe in fairy airy tales, maybe. It like those prince charming fables that guys allude to so often. You have the male version of magical thinking.
The fairy tales are the things our women are taught Catherine, you just displayed aspects of them in your earlier post.
Quote:
Of course you were successful in improving your relationship. You were willing to work hard at it. I'll bet if you think about it the answers came from many sources. If you never read the book you would have succeeded because you were ready to make it happen.
I am certain there is advice in the book that is very good and helped. But do you think he came up with it? You can tell the difference between what he invented and what he borrowed from other sources.
I never said Athol did invent it.
In fact I stated I had been working the concepts Athol espouses my entire life, well before I ever heard of MMSL.
Ironically it was my mother who first put me onto these "secrets" as a young boy.
What Athol does is takes it all and puts it into a system that a man can work to improve his attractiveness to his woman.
That`s it...that`s the entire extent of what MMSL is about.
Here`s another statement that can be spun into something it isn`t.
Athol Kay has written the best "Players Book" I`ve ever seen.
It`s the pick-up artists handbook extraordinaire.
The novelty is it`s designed to teach you how to "pick-up" your wife, where it differs is it tells you how to keep picking her up forever, over and over again.
The women in my life have responded to the concepts he promotes always.
If there is a problem with what he`s writing his detractors should look at why women think/feel the way they do because he`s merely taking his lead from them.
Catherine,
You need to consider the toll this is taking on you. You never spoke to your mother about their physical relationship. You have no idea what it was. You married well and are very physically attracted to your H. I am not blaming your mother, simply saying you have no real context.
As for me - I am going to directly respond to your constant refrain on this topic which is: if you are willing to find a sexual alternative to your wife that means:
- sex with her is just physical, there is no real emotional component to it
- you ONLY care about sex, and don't see her as a person
- you are totally selfish
- and finally you are a pig, wrapped in a mans body
This is just for me, but truly my wiring is fairly standard:
1. Sex is primarily an emotional thing for me. It is more raw physical for my wife.
2. This is so offensive I will only make one comment about it. At my income/fitness level I can easily procure a 25 year old third world woman, and with a prenup have an intensely sexual relationship at minimal cost for up to ten years (the outer limit of most prenups). I have zero desire to do that - despite my wife's physical situation.
3. Deep sigh. No - I try hard to give more than I ask for. That also is a wiring thing.
4. Really?
QUOTE=Catherine602;784007]I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother.
All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.
After he died my mother began to talk about what happened. She had no skills and she sacrificed for us and remained with him.
The lives of myself and my mother, sister and brother were adversely effected by a cheating father. It screwed up our lives. It was my entire childhood. I had to take care of my mother I had to watch her suffer and try to be the best I could be. I wanted to make her happy so badly. I had no childhood.
I am trying to forgive my father. I know he did not love us and was only concerned about himself. But I am trying to find a way to forgive him for bringing me into the world to be so miserable.
I would rather die than do anything to hurt my husband and kids.
When our marriage was troubled, I met a man who I could have fallen in love with if I were not married. We had a lot in common and there was a strong attraction between us.
He was doing a postdoc in my lab. As soon as I realized what was happening, I had him transferred to another lab. It was not easy to do because I felt happy when he was there. However, I avoided him and was cordial but cool when we met.
I know my father could have loved us enough to forgo the cheating. If I can do it for the sake of my family, anyone can.[/QUOTE] Posted via Mobile Device
This. This is the problem. If your wife did not meet your sexual expectations, why not act morally and divorce? Sex seems to have nothing to do with love. If it did, you would have said you would divorce and seek the affection and love of another women.
Divorce is painful but it gives you a chance to make an orderly exit. Prepare your children and give your wife some consideration as a human being.
It does mean that you have to wait to have sex but you will not die. You went through dry periods when you were single right? Pretend you are single.
Everyone, including your wife, has a right to be love and be loved the way they need to feel loved in return.
Plus your wife cheated. I hope you understand that you are just as much at risk of humiliation as she if you don't meet her needs. She has done it before, just like you. How would you feel if she said to you what you posted here?
I bet you would not take it well. Have you shown her the post? Should't you do so as part of transparency. She has a right to know how you think so she can make plans too.
First off, it's not sex, it's love.
My wife and I were married for over 25 years and had grown complacent in our marriage. I was not an ogre, she was not a shrew. We just quit working on our relationship and made terrible, terrible mistakes.
If we were to put ourselves in that situation again, it would result in divorce before I cheated.
I know now(and didn't before) how one has to work HARD to make a marriage.
Sex and love intertwine. I know some people can have sex without love and love without sex. I am not one of them.
My wife will likely see this thread and believe me, it will come as no surprise. We have had numerous discussions on what we expect from each other. And we deliver.
I know what is expected out of me as a husband. I do my absolute best to deliver on those conditions. I have failed from time to time because we are human beings and we aren't perfect.
If it simplifies it for you, if she's not in the mood on Friday night, I don't go looking for a hooker.
Let me add on edit that there is no one, no one that I love more than my beautiful wife. She means everything to me and I love her with every fiber of my being. I know that she loves me the same way.
Both of us have responsibilities and obligations in order for that love to continue. It is NOT unconditional.
Dan,
Main difference between us is I am afraid of my wife - enough to go frontal. When we hit the wall it was sudden, intense and brutally honest. She immediately knew what her choices were. I pulled no punches and hold no grudges. From start to finish it took 5 days to reach an understanding.
Her opening bid was we could be celibate. My offer was SHE could be celibate, with no tension as long as she accepted I wasn't going to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF
First off, it's not sex, it's love.
My wife and I were married for over 25 years and had grown complacent in our marriage. I was not an ogre, she was not a shrew. We just quit working on our relationship and made terrible, terrible mistakes.
If we were to put ourselves in that situation again, it would result in divorce before I cheated.
I know now(and didn't before) how one has to work HARD to make a marriage.
Sex and love intertwine. I know some people can have sex without love and love without sex. I am not one of them.
My wife will likely see this thread and believe me, it will come as no surprise. We have had numerous discussions on what we expect from each other. And we deliver.
I know what is expected out of me as a husband. I do my absolute best to deliver on those conditions. I have failed from time to time because we are human beings and we aren't perfect.
If it simplifies it for you, if she's not in the mood on Friday night, I don't go looking for a hooker.
Dan,
Main difference between us is I am afraid of my wife - enough to go frontal. When we hit the wall it was sudden, intense and brutally honest. She immediately knew what her choices were. I pulled no punches and hold no grudges. From start to finish it took 5 days to reach an understanding.
Her opening bid was we could be celibate. My offer was SHE could be celibate, with no tension as long as she accepted I wasn't going to be.
Posted via Mobile Device
I don't think that I could do that.
If I were working as hard as I do, providing a really nice lifestyle, I have to have a full blown, all the way in wife.
I am not going to bust my ass to get turned down by a woman that I love.
MEM you make me laugh even time you say that you are afraid of your wife. I just don't believe it. You seem too crafty to be stumped by much. You can probably wiggle your way out of any of her gambits.
I appreciate the responses. I will have to read them over carefully and answer tomorrow. My dreamy husband is about to retire and I think I am going to be bold and attack him. He he.
I can't be mad at you Catherine because you truly are such a good wife. Your H is lucky and he knows it.
QUOTE=Catherine602;784296]MEM you make me laugh even time you say that you are afraid of your wife. I just don't believe it. You seem too crafty to be stumped by much. You can probably wiggle your way out of any of her gambits.
I appreciate the responses. I will have to read them over carefully and answer tomorrow. My dreamy husband is about to retire and I think I am going to be bold and attack him. He he.[/QUOTE] Posted via Mobile Device
Dan,
I have no idea what would have happened if she had decided to go "full frontal head to head with me".
I am thinking that:
- there is zero chance WE would be going to Grand Cayman this December
- I am stumped - I love my wife a lot - a lot lot. I did not feel strong enough to escape the massive emotional gravity well she had created during a 20 year period
- so I decided to force the issue by seeing if she felt strong enough to try to escape MY gravity field - I put the ball entirely in her court and suddenly
- was on the receivIng end of what folks here call "hysterical bonding"
- never would have guessed that the idea of another woman touching me would make her simultaneously furious and aroused
As for this "I give a 100 percent - so being sexually shut down would be a non starter" I fully understand your point. Still stumped. I don't know how this would have played out. I wasn't bluffing. She absolutely knew that. I don't bluff on major stuff.
I would have been sad. The whole fidelity thing really means something to me. And it is also true that I have worked hard for her to have the life she wanted. When she finally explained that it really "hurt" to have intercourse, everything got better and worse at the same time. Mostly better. Now we do "other stuff".
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF
I don't think that I could do that.
If I were working as hard as I do, providing a really nice lifestyle, I have to have a full blown, all the way in wife.
I am not going to bust my ass to get turned down by a woman that I love.
My take on MMSP, is that it's a tool, just like any other tool, sometimes you have to keep looking for the right wrench to fit, and work on things correctly, be it his book, or any other, counseling, TAM...all tools..
Most men ( and I do mean most) really will try and do anything because we LOVE OUR WIVES more than life and want to be with them forever....We want to be prince charming, We want to slay the dragons(anything we feel is hurting you, including oursleves) and lay them at your feet, while we stand there bloody and battered (physical,emotionaly) waiting for a real smile from you, a real kiss....we would glady slay a 1000 more, walk thru hell smiling, anticipating a smile & kiss...to feel loved............
Most men ( and I do mean most) really will try and do anything because we LOVE OUR WIVES more than life and want to be with them forever....We want to be prince charming, We want to slay the dragons(anything we feel is hurting you, including oursleves) and lay them at your feet, while we stand there bloody and battered (physical,emotionaly) waiting for a real smile from you, a real kiss....we would glady slay a 1000 more, walk thru hell smiling, anticipating a smile & kiss...to feel loved............
When slaying dragons doesn't help, maybe we're slaying the wrong ones? I guess that's when the Athol stuff is most useful.
ETA: I just explained 'fitness tests' to my mom who has done a good deal of Christian/marital counseling and she said, yes, she's familiar with that concept.
154Likes
Re: MMSL, taken with plenty of salt. 
