Originally Posted by CanadianGuy

Kingsfan,
Do you feel that this rejection has been creeping into other areas of your life - like self esteem for instance? Confidence? Overall "manly" feelings.

Originally Posted by Toffer

King,

Again you must be pulling chapters from my book:

Originally Posted by PHTlump

You're confusing two separate issues. The first issue is whether sex is voluntary. It clearly is. The fact that it's voluntary means it's not a violation and it's nowhere near rape.

The second issue is how the sex makes her feel. And the sex does seem to depress her. And that's tragic. But to say that a woman who feels depressed after having voluntary sex with a man has been violated, or possibly even raped is to cheapen the language of sexual crimes to point of meaninglessness. If a wife who willingly submitted to sex, but felt depressed afterward was raped, then what word should we ascribe to Jerry Sandusky's victims? We can't use rape because that applies to sad wives. We need a new word. Or, we can just keep rape for what it is and stop throwing it around willy nilly.

Originally Posted by jaquen

I am not confused. I never said the woman was raped.

I said "It feels like you're, on some level, describing a repeated rape experience."

Originally Posted by jaquen

The strength of the language, the adjectives she's using, the tone of her post, remind ME of rape. It sounds to ME like a woman who is describing a sexual violation, a coercion, on some level feeling she HAS to give sex, or else...

Originally Posted by jaquen

I am not calling this woman's husband a rapist. I am not saying this woman is a rape victim. I am simply saying that her OP came off to me as someone who is describing a rape/forced/coerced sex experience.

Originally Posted by jaquen

And no, I do not throw the word "rape" around willy nilly. I have people very close to my heart in my life who have been sexually molested and raped, which is partly why I find the tone of that woman's post alarming.

Originally Posted by Dr. Rockstar

I don't think I was saying that at all. At least I hope not.

Let me put it this way: I just went back and re-read the beginning of this thread and my original post. Some of the early posters said that a person was expected to give it up on special occasions. Flip that around and look at it from the other side. Following that thought to its natural conclusion, the other person is obligated to give it up fora nice dinner and dancing? In my mind that isn't following through on a marriage vow or even reciprocation. That's repayment for services rendered. Please forgive my language, because I can't think of a better phrase, but that means that the second partner is essentially wh**ing himself or herself out for a nice time.

Can we at least agree that expectation is equal to an unvoiced demand? I'm not saying that a couple has to draw up a contract any time they want to be intimate. I am saying that it's unfair to just assume that it's a spouse's duty to have sex at a moment's notice, and that it's okay to turn their partner down sometime.

If a person expects their spouse to have sex with them just because, it means that they believe the spouse is either ready for sex the same time as that person, or that it doesn't matter how they feel about it. A person should have a voice in whether or not they want to have sex. There's another word for the logical extension of that reasoning, but I'm not going to use it here.

And--just to clarify--I'm not talking about a wife's obligation to her husband, but a conflict between any two partners.

Originally Posted by kingsfan

Yes, big time.

I think after my marriage finally ended, that was already there in spades. I felt lowly, unattractive, undesireable, unworthy, etc. My marriage did a number on me.

When I ended up with my current fiancee, like most relationships, the sex was great at first. She was after me on a regular basis, and man, the wonders that did for my self-esteem and confidence! I felt like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, like I was the alpha male and king of the world, all because my woman wanted me BAD. It was one of only a few times in my entire life a woman wanted me like that, and it felt great. It was awesome. I felt like a million bucks.

I just wish that would have lasted. It didn't last with my ex-wife either. So either it was a bait and switch issue (definately was with my ex-wife) or it's an issue relating to attraction, self-esteem, or something else.

My fiancee says it's not attraction, and I have no reason to think she's lying to me about that. I still want to get to the bottom of it because I want to feel like how I felt years ago when we first started dating. I've never felt better and like more of a man than I did then. I miss that now.

Originally Posted by kingsfan

I know exactly what you mean.

My fiancee and I were having a talk the other day and I had mentioned how I really like these soft, deep kisses she gives me from time to time. The kind that can say all by themselves 'I love you.'

She responded she likes giving them to me, but that she doesn't as often as she'd like because she doesn't want me to think they are leading to something else, or for me to ask for something else as a result.

I didn't think of it at the time (we had had a few and I had a decent buzz going) but afterwards I thought to myself "Well if sex was a bit more often, then I wouldn't be crawling all over you after one of those kisses."

It's a rock and a hard place. You want the flirting and touching, but she doesn't do it as much because she doesn't want to have to follow through with sex later. Meanwhile, if you had sex more often at other times, you wouldn't be hoping she'd follow through with sex nearly as often when she does give those kisses .

Originally Posted by kingsfan

This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.

Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.

So naturally, with an entire evening to ourselves, I figure this would be a good time to have sex. I knew we'd have the house to ourselves a few days earlier, so I had mentioned the idea of doing something different sexually to her a few days prior, and was personally rather stoked up because I was thinking about it off and on all day.

In the end, she elected to have a nap, then we went grocery shopping and after that she elected it was more enjoyable to sit and watch TV rather than take advantage of having a house to ourselves, and rebuffed my efforts to make a go of it.

While I never 'demand' sex, to me a situation like that, due to its rarity, seems to almost beg that sex should be an option. It'll likely be months before we have the house alone to ourselves again (or longer, who knows).

Do you think there are times like this where sex should almost be expected?

Originally Posted by southbound

This could have been written by me when I was married; that sounds exactly like my situation. The thing is, I wasn't in a totally sexless marriage; my wife was in the mood sometimes, and would initiate, so I know she wasn't totally turned off by sex with me, but I never knew what turned her on. Yes, I did ask, but she didn't even know. I don't think the same thing ever turned her on twice. It reminds me of a funny line from a tv show where the guy tells his wife something like, "What is romance? Tell me what you need; I don't know. You got excited once when I brought home a bucket of chicken!!"

I've never shared this here before, but I remember the most passionate sex that my wife ever initiated was the night my Uncle passed away several years ago and we saw him lying dead in the hospital. The only thing I could figure was that maybe it was just a dose of reality for her and she realized you could lose somebody at any time, and she wanted to feel close to me. I don't know???

Originally Posted by RClawson

I do not even know how to reply to this. here is the deal. I have no clue after 26 years of marriage about signals, signs, or hints. Honestly I give up. I love being intimate with my wife and when it happens 99% of the time it is anywhere from intense to wild monkey sex.

At the end of the day though I just cannot figure her out any longer and at this point I am quite apathetic about it. In other news I am getting quite familiar with my right hand although I am considering cheating with my left.