Sex in MarriageSexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.
If men only marry women because of sex, then why don't they just invest in blow up dolls or they can save even more money by getting a flesh light....?
My apologies. My take on your post was that you were expecting the HD person to make most of the concession.
If you are saying that the LD person needs to simply try to meet the HD spouse's need for frequency and variety, then I agree. Unfortunately, most LD spouses would not agree to this.
That is exactly what I was saying. I do disagree that "most" LD spouses are not willing to compromise with their spouses on sex. I know plenty of LD spouses (many of my close girlfriends for example) who might not physically want sex as much as their husbands, but still chose to have regular sex because they love and respect them.
I don't think it fair to lump LD spouses together as unwilling to compromise or respect the needs of their spouses. I'll admit that some are this way. But some HD spouses are unreasonable as well.
If men only marry women because of sex, then why don't they just invest in blow up dolls or they can save even more money by getting a flesh light....?
In some instances that is preferable to a cold fish, selfish, LD wife, I'm sure.
To expect a woman to do something to increase her sex drive means you expect her to "just do it." It doesn't mean anything else because she has no magic wand.
Interesting, because I don't see this at all. What I see is the OP wanting to see his wife take some affirmative steps to increase her sex drive or interest. That does not mean just do it, but rather show some effort to work on things. Something to show that she actually cares about the issue. To give a simplistic example, my wife's desire for me increases when she helps a bit on my projects around the house. So if we had these issues, her making an effort to help on those projects is a step to increase her drive. If she refused, that would frustrate me and make me question whether she really cares.
Quote:
You can turn your wife back on. You need to understand her and learn how. It mostly depends on you but doesn't ALL fall on your shoulders. As I and someone else said before, men and women need to understand each other and their differences. Your wife has to learn about you too and understand you. She needs to understand what sex means to you. She needs to feel that while wanting and needing sex is a hormonal response in men that she is the one you desire. Frankly, I'm not hearing much desire for her coming from you. All I hear from you is you want sex and you want it from her because you're married to her (Repeat: that's what she is to you - convenience, available, easy access, close proximity, yours for the asking because you're married. All that entitlement stuff that she loathes and you can't hide.) However, if she understood you from a love standpoint, if you can impress what she means to you, and if you could make her feel like you love her if you and she never had sex again, it would make a big difference in how she feels and how she views sex with you. Someone (I think Emerald) stated she WANTS to please her husband. I feel exactly the same way. I never said "no" or the "I have a headache" kind of thing to any man except my first husband (first marriage only lasted two years), not even when I wasn't in the mood. It is far easier for you to destroy her desire (as has apparently happened) than it is for her to restore it. By the same token, you can make her WANT to please you. By that same token again, you can increase her desire in that not only does she want to please you, but she will WANT you.
While these are good suggestions, there are a couple of real issues. Whether you intended to or not, it places all the blame and responsibility on the man (or at least the lower desire spouse). While certainly the LD spouse has the problem, so needs to adjust their approach, they should also be able to expect honesty from their spouse.
This advice also seems to suggest that the OP can change his spouse. The fact is that he can't. He can do all types of things to try and encourage her to change, but in the end it is up to her. She has to want to do this and nothing he can do can make her change is she does not want to. To suggest otherwise is really unfair to the OP.
That said, your points are useful, and the OP should take a step back to examine what things he has done that may have contributed. If you want him to do so, I would suggest toning down comments about his not being honest, or interpreting things such that his behavior is bad where hers is not. While it is good to offer those as points, attacking the OP is the quickest way to get him defensive.
Sorry you are going through this - you are not alone. It's a common marital problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianGuy
I'm not a fan of "just do it" either.
"Just do it" only works when the person who is the one who has to "just do it" is fully on-board and engaged, or committed to the relationship. If they see themselves as having no problem, or the relationship as having no problem, then they may feel that they "just don't have to do it" because there is literally nothing "to do".
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianGuy
I worked on those thing so she would not feel objectified as she had indicated that to me. I ceased doing those acts of service etc about a year ago. I had begun the other program at least 8 years ago. I can appreciate every thing you are saying. It still doesn't answer the question of why she was not trying to increase her drive when I was working on lower mine. If your saying that she couldn't care less about working on it because she wasn't attracted to me for the reasons you stated above she's had eight years to come around and the frequency and enthusiasm from her has become less and less. I even stopped initiating. I do tell her what she means to me. Not for sex but for who she really is. But is it really up to me all the time to rev her engine so to speak.
See my response above. She perhaps wasn't doing things at the same time because she did not perceive them to be a problem that she had to work on. She may have the mindset that her drive is not a problem FOR HER, so therefore it does not need working on. She perceives that you are the one with the problem and need to work on it. It is the self-centered mindset - you know, the one that all of us intrinsically have and often have to struggle to overcome. She would have to get to the place where she realizes that her drive is not a problem for her, but is a problem FOR YOU... and that change in perspective has to come from within herself.
Ironically, ask yourself if it is the same mindset that you also have. Do you perceive your drive as not being a problem FOR YOU, but you do perceive hers as being the one with the problem that needs work? If so, then you will also have to undergo the same change in perspective and enlightenment where you realize that while your drive is not a problem for you, it is a problem FOR HER. It won't get better between the two or you until you BOTH have that bit of enlightenment, because once you get to that point you start to see ways to move forward in working together.
If you have been struggling and toiling through this for 8 long years (or longer), then it is time to consider what kinds of serious actions can be done to move things forward due to the severity of the mis-match between you. At this point, it's really more than a sexual mis-match. It speaks of a foundational mis-match in the marriage and in your respective perspectives that has been eroded by both of you over time. Have you two considered counselling, together, and independently? Have you considered what your options are if your wife refuses to work on any of the issues with you?
As well, how do you respond when she gets into a snit and throws one of her verbal whammies at you? Learning how to positively respond to those zingers can do a lot to change the dynamic - most especially within yourself - the one person you have any control over changing anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianGuy
Why can she not work on reving her own engine once and awhile? What I really want to know - Have any LD people found a way or are working on increasing their drive?
The only way that she will ever work on this is if SHE wants to. She has to be able to see her role in the marital drama that you have ongoing...if she gets to that point, then she would likely be willing to entertain the WHY. There can be any number of reasons why someone has a lower drive for sex - not all of them are bad or wrong - in some cases it can simply be one person's inability to physically/mentally keep up with someone who seems to spontaneously combust with little tinder - in others there may be medical issues or age issues or hormonal imbalance that are affecting things - and all of the relational stress and strain involved in two people who are ultimately not getting along very well helps to keep the cycle going as some people can have a hard time disengaging sex from all of the other crummy things that may be going on.
I hope that you will seriously consider getting some third-party professional help and guidance for your situation, if you haven't already.
The moral of the story is that more men should work harder, and search longer, to find the SimplyAmorous and That Girls of the world!
Problem solved!
Ha ha, That GIRL was always a sexual dynamo -that is what I get from her posts... ME... I used to be Repressed, husband even called me a "Nun" on occasion (joking around that is)...it was there lurking -but needed let out of the cage, my anger over missing those years fuels my fury on this forum sometimes. If I can inspire other women somehow to get in touch with that-earlier in thier marraiges, I would feel very good about it . I'm still enjoying my sexual awakening.
SruceHub, this isn't the first time I've stated these things. I don't expect everyone reads every post on these boards, but I must be failing miserably because you guys aren't getting it LOL. Sorry about that, so I'll try to address your individual statements to perhaps explain myself a little better, at least where your specific statements are concerned. I think you say something like men and women need to understand eachother then continue with a statement that the man (assuming the H is HD and W is LD) needs to understand what he is doing that is turning his wife off. That assumes it is his fault, that he does something.
It's not a convertible car where the feelings and reasons for the feelings are interchangeable. Either she feels objectified or she doesn't. Either she wants sex or she doesn't. Or, she doesn't want sex because she feels objectified. Not the other way around though because her feelings are not conjured by something that doesn't exist. Does that make any sense? Let me know. I agree with you that being objectified is the reason or it isn't. My point was subtler - that maybe the LD person does not want sex, so feels objectified when the HD person does. Then the LD person uses feeling objectified as the reason, when in fact, feeling objectified is a symptom of the issue.
Yes of course, and this is what I said - that men and women need to understand each other. Most women have no idea what sex means to men. It is a fact that most of the women on these boards didn't know or understand until reading on these boards. I am one of them. Although we don't have such problems, I never knew how "desiring" my husband makes him feel. I just thought we were great together in what we shared but because I'm not in his body, I had no idea the importance. I only knew what it means to me. Get it? Women don't know, which is why I tried to impress on CanadianGuy that they need to understand each other. Being a woman, I could only give him this minute aspect of how women are. One thing I learned from the guys on these boards is a saying "Women need love to want sex, and men need sex to feel loved." I totally understand now......well, almost totally because, again, I'm not in his body. For example, your wife could tell you how painful labor and childbirth is. You will empathize and likely feel bad for her, but you can never know how she feels. It will help his wife in the empathy department for him to let his wife know what it means to him. Along with that, it will help his wife to know what she means to him (if anything) because women need to know. We are on the same page here. It really requires empathy to understand how someone else feels. I will admit I have a very hard time empathizing with an LD spouse because my view of love is that if the person you love wants something (anything, not just sex/affection) then, because you love them, you want to give it to them. So, I cannot see how a rejection to a reasonable request (or, putting other things first), is not a statement about how much the LD spouse loves her H. E.g., I love my mother and I know she wants to spend more time with me, but I only have so much free time and spend it with my W and children. I could not fault my mother for feeling like I love them more or differently. So, when my W has energy for everything else, but none for me, I cannot help but interpret that as I am her last priority (that is generous for me to consider myself a priority at all).
You're talking about gratitude and appreciation, right? But, that's not what I've been talking about. What I've been talking is how it can happen that men turn their wives off from sex and that they need to understand that they turn her off and that they can turn her back on by understanding how women are, which will help them understand how they turn her off and how to turn her on.
It's easy to say how a wife should feel or think, but you contradicted yourself two times. You don't want it to feel like she's satisfying an obligation or express less than enthusiasm, but where should she conjure the passion and excitement when she's not in the mood? I am not contradicting myself, I am saying I do not understand what it means to not be in the mood to please your spouse. If my W woke me at 3 in the morning and said her shoulder was bothering her I would not "not be in the mood" to rub it. I cannot understand not wanting to give someone you love something they want. I can understand when you love someone not asking something that is or might be unreasonable because you know they love you and would do it for you.
And/Or, where does she get them from if you don't conjure those feelings from within her? Are you saying you WANT her to fake it? She's giving you sex because obviously she DOES think oh my gosh, here is a man that has committed his life to me and has lived with me and agreed to forsake all others for me, but that's not enough because you want it mind blowing every time. She's not you, SpruceHub. Most women don't have the sex drive that most men do, and not all women are like SA. Again, and I can't say it enough, men and women need to understand each other. I'm going to assume you are projecting your situation, so I need to repeat myself in saying if you understood your wife, you'd be much better able to evoke those feelings of empathy and desire that you desire from her. Because you are not in her body and have no idea how she feels, you are basing your opinion on how YOU feel. That's all you have to go by because you don't understand HER. I am projecting. But I can guaranty that I could not be more empathetic. I understand her in almost every way. I know what she wants to eat (not just what she likes, what she is in the mood for), I push her when she needs it (e.g., to get up for yoga or go to book club), I compliment her in a way she'll believe it, I planned a trip she would never have thought of but that she'd admit was better than what she would have done. I waited 2 years after our last child was born before attempting to initiate sex, because I know the toll the pregnancies took. I anticipate her wants. I pay attention to what she says and does so that I can understand her. I am not a doormat, just attentive and responsive. Do I know what turns her on. Sure, I have noticed her response if I am doing something manly (chopping a tree or fixing something around the house). I am not looking for mindblowing sex everytime or anytime. I am looking for affection and bonding - acceptance and love. The best way I can explain is that in the Sex Starved Marriage book, there is a passage that says real giving is giving someone what they want to receive, not what you want to give them. This is intuitive to me. When she read it, she disagreed and said that the person should be happy with what you want to give them. So, no, I cannot understand any further, I am at my intellectual and emotional limit.
I will point out also that the majority of threads on these boards are a matter of the complainant changing themselves in some way or another, while they are complaining that their spouse needs to change. This is something that usually applies. It doesn't mean you have to change yourself in terms of somehow turning off your sex drive. I can't imagine that's possible. I'm saying, you have to change your way of thinking. I don't believe all women who are considered LD actually are LD. I think there are husbands who need a new perspective......like learning to understand their wives, rather than suffering for years on end. Someone said (paraphrasing here) people need to not marry until they find like-driven mates. That's ridiculous. Practically all of us will be looking forever, and the vast majority would never marry. Those who do either got lucky or possess the temperment and perspective that is necessary and suitable for the mate that they have. They understand each other. There is no osmosis happening. Men and women are very different and need to learn and understand each other. I agree. But you are assuming that where there is a mismatch and the HD person is upset it is because he does not understand what his W wants or he is turning her off or not turning her on. Me projecting thinks that that there comes a point when a person has done all he can in seeking to understand his W. When it comes to the LD spouse, you say she needs to understand how important sex is to her H. In my book, assuming the HD spouse is not acting like an ass (groping her all day), tht should pretty much solve the problem, unless the LD spouse won't take the additional step. Another example, if the problem is that the W likes to have conversations and the H is not really into that, if the H comes to understand that his W's happiness is predicated in part on their talking, he (the low conversational spouse) should just accept that an start gabbing and listening. At some level, you could advise that the W needs to find things that her H is ok talking about, but I think that is bullsh*t - I think he should enjoy talking about whatever she needs to talk about, simply becuase she needs it.
(Making two disclaimers here: One is that some women and some men are simply low drive. There may be reasons for that, but I cannot deny there are some who simply have no or very little sex drive. In that case, no amount of understanding or learning will the sex department. That is not, however, for you to assume this applies to your wife. Agree - she enjoys sex when we have it. And has in the past had a desire for it. The second disclaimer is some women are not sexually satisfied by their husband. Yes, she fell in love and wanted to marry him, but that didn't mean he was able to push her sexual buttons. If sex is not satisfying, she doesn't want to have sex. This can turn into the obligation sex because she's getting nothing out of it, so no, there is nowhere for her to summon passion or excitement from. I'm not saying this applies to you and your wife. I'm just saying these things happen so as to separate these possibilies from my earlier statements. It will help though for whom these statements do apply to find ways to make sex more satisfying for their wife. I know it can be done despite some men having the complex that size matters. I know it doesn't matter. Technique, skill, knowledge, and caring are what matter more than anything.) Agree and I know this is not the issue either. But if this were an issue, it is absolutely the dissatisifed person's responsibility to communicate this.
And that would be a natural and integral part of a woman understanding her man. What do you think your wife would do if you said those words to her? Or, would she say you are deluding yourself in thinking you do/give so much for her? I am indifferent to whether she notices how much I do and give. I do not act for gratitude, so I would never point out my actions. She has expressed that she knows how much I love her and how much I would sacrifice for her.And, what do your words/actions/behaviors on a daily basis say to her? Interesting question, what do my actions say: How can I serve you your highness. What does she hear? anything from you are beautiful, to how can I get into your pants - all depending on her mood, not on what I say
Do you turn her off? It does turn her off when I am hurt. I often feel like she's shoved a knife in my heart and is turning it by ignoring me at night (I would never ask for sex because I'd feel like all I'd get is a rejection, a fight, or pity sex). So, the next morning, I can have trouble looking at her. I'll say nothing is wrong (because if I say something is wrong, it'll start a fight). But this is a case of me being hurt because she ignored me, so to say this is why she is turned off is a bit circular - her being turned off (or tuned out) - is what was hurtful to begin with because I'm getting the message that you don't turn her on. Marriage is work, and learning and understanding your wife helps you to know what to work on. The same goes for her where you are concerned. But, your wife isn't going to get these messages subliminally. You seem to think she should.
You keep sayin this. I think this is the third time in different words. So my understanding is there's obligation sex, there's chore sex, there's less than enthusiastic sex, and now there's gratitude sex. And you want it mind blowing every time. Okay. LOL Completely wrong. Chore/obliogation sex is sex because you feel you need to - i.e., to assuage guilt or so he has no reason to complain. Desire sex is out of pure want for the other person. Love/Gratitude sex is wanting to have sex not because your loins are on fire but because want to make the other person happy. The first type has no place in a relationship. Some mix of the latter 2 should be present in a relationship. Problem is, for the HD person it can be difficult to tell between types 1 and 3, whether you are being a burden or whether your partner wants to do it to make you happy. It should be mindblowing when both parties are having desire sex.
I haven't the mental fortitude or the patience to go back and count how many times I've expressed the importance of men and women learning and understanding each other.
The first thing you need to learn is the meaning of unconditional love. Most people think it means you are supposed to love someone no matter what - no matter how they are and no matter what they do (or don't do as it were). But that's not what it means. Unconditional love means to love someone without expectations. You love them and do for them out of love because you love them without expecting anything in return. If you conduct your marriage expecting your wife's undying and ever-displayed gratitude, then you're in the wrong frame of mind. See there. I told you you need a new perspective.......and you need to understand your wife.
I absolutly have no expectations of praise, gratitude, thanks or anything else from my wife, except her love and respect. I do not do anything for her with the expectation of receiving anything in return. I act to make her life happier and easier, because making her and the children happy (and well rounded) is 90% of what makes me happy. I think I would vomit if she said thanks for folding the laundry, now let me take care of you. Not feeling her love and affection for me is as bad as it gets.
If men only marry women because of sex, then why don't they just invest in blow up dolls or they can save even more money by getting a flesh light....?
Most men understand love through their partners' willingness to sleep with them. When a W becomes less wanting to have sex with her H, he feels less loved.
Sex is an implied feature of marriage though. Why would a person (male or female) agree to "forsake others" for a spouse if the spouse is not going to provide a fulsome sex life. This can be extrapolated to other areas than sex - all areas of emotional fulfillment and support.
But, you are so wrong, for one very simply reason that has nothing to do with what you said.
When two people get married, they agree to elevate their spouse's needs to a central place in their lives. Those people are entitled to feel the way they do. But marriage is a PROMISE to another person - one on which that other person relies to their own detriment. If you get married, you are promising your spouse that you will meet their need. By agreeing to marry you, your spouse is trusting you will meet his need, and it is morally reprehensible for you to fall short because "you don't feel like it".
Before you marry that person, look at him and ask yourself "can I feel good about having sex with him when things are busy at work, through the demands of parenthood, etc.?" If the answer is "no" (and, if a lady is honest, she will admit she knows the answer to that question before she marries him) then don't marry him - it's that simple. Once you do marry, his wants and needs matter as much as yours.
You make way too many assumptions for practically every person since the beginning of time. The "I have a headache" kind of thing didn't begin with your wife or the marriages talked about on these boards. It is age old, so you are wrong to think you know what marriage means and has always meant.
Despite what anyone thinks marriage is supposed to mean, it becomes whatever it is. Despite people's initial belief and intention, their marriage becomes whatever it becomes. What I have been saying is men and women are the way they are and respond to each other, mostly women respond to their man. Because they are very different emotionally and sexually, the responses often turn out negative because they don't understand each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTO
Hey Canadian Guy,
My ex was exactly like River1977, so I know what she's trying to say - I just happen to disagree with her conclusions over the impact of male vs. female expectations on one's marriage. So, I'll fill in the understanding gap for you.
No, you have no idea what I'm TRYING to say because you don't get what I DID say. I made my points very clearly, but you missed them all.......and only used your imagination to "fill in the gaps" where there weren't any.
Understand that River1977 is not advocating a specific level of sex or accomodation of the husband. In fact, it's quite the opposite - she is suggesting that the level of sex be geared towards meeting the wife's sensibility. She says that she does not feel "used" by her husband, but does not assert that as a result she has lots of sex with him. It could be that they only go 1-2x per month.
So, a lady like River would assert that they guy should be okay with sex as the woman wants. If you are treating her well and she responds by opening up sexually, then everyone wins. But, if you treat her well and the sex is still bad, it might be you or it might be just the way she is - but you should roll with it.
Your imagination runs wild. I said and neither implied any such things, but you very cleverly convince others that I somehow did or that somehow this is what I meant by what I stated. You are, however, the perfect example of everything I've been saying - that you turn your woman off.
CG - you are a good husband & doing nothing really "wrong."
Low sexual desire is NOT a choice - do the research people.
Not reaching compromises to differences whatever they may be IS a choice.
I think people are trying to differentiate the difference between a willing, but naturally LD spouse, and a spouse who becomes LD because of resentment, selfishness, or the fact that they never were attracted to their spouse in the first place.
I think those are two totally different classes of people. It's the difference between one who can't, and one who won't.
My OP was an inquiry to find out if any LD persons ( M or F ) had found any ways to increase their drive. Being born with it was never and issue. However Emerald had a good point about wether or not they were LD because of their partner or born LD. It was not my intention to make this post about my relationship, which is a shambles, but rather to see if others make an effort in this dept. and what they found that worked. I asked that because I felt that my spouse was not making an effort and wondered if other LD people did. This link was helpful. Musings from a LD perspective
As so many women have pointed out they are sure there is something that I could improve on. Perhaps I have being going about it all wrong. The issues are like layers of an onion. At this point if I tell her " I lover her" it's because I want sex. If I don't do things around the house it's because I am angry I have not been having sex. lol. That is frustrating. The old "house work" theory has raised it's ugly head. Do more and she would feel like sex more. How bout do me more and I'll feel like it more? lol. In my opinion that's hoop jumping and I'm done with that because it feels very manipulative. I have read a ton of relationship books. She has read none. As I also began my original post with the things I had been doing in the relationship to give her space I neglected to say that I had also stepped up several other actions like flowers, gifts to her, loving words, etc. When I say she did nothing I mean nothing, no trying to understand men, no books about relationships, no nothing. I might point out that she believed I was doing this all for more sex. She was objectifying herself. I was doing this to show her that I loved her and wanted to make her happy. It hasn't worked, things have gotten a lot worse as she believes everything I do is about sex. I just want a great marriage. It's getting ridiculous though and I considered leaving last night because it feels like it's a no win no matter what I do.
You make way too many assumptions for practically every person since the beginning of time. The "I have a headache" kind of thing didn't begin with your wife or the marriages talked about on these boards. It is age old, so you are wrong to think you know what marriage means and has always meant.
Despite what anyone thinks marriage is supposed to mean, it becomes whatever it is. Despite people's initial belief and intention, their marriage becomes whatever it becomes. What I have been saying is men and women are the way they are and respond to each other, mostly women respond to their man. Because they are very different emotionally and sexually, the responses often turn out negative because they don't understand each other.
Your imagination runs wild. I said and neither implied any such things, but you very cleverly convince others that I somehow did or that somehow this is what I meant by what I stated. You are, however, the perfect example of everything I've been saying - that you turn your woman off.
River, again, you hit the nail on the head. This is what happened with us:
10 years into our marriage, husband is complaining of me not giving him enough sex, considers ME LD...
I have been considering HIM LD for 8 of those years because he called me a sex pest after sex one time and insinuated that I was insatiable. I felt that I had to turn off my HD because it was bothersome to him.
Had it been up to me, we would have been having sex 2 - 3 times a day...BUT circumstances prevented it. One of those circumstances being that he stayed up all night playing video games and got up right before he went to work. We had ZERO time together. He was watching porn without me, this was a HUGE turn off for me because I felt that he was replacing doing it with me, by watching porn.
Plus, there was something that I have wanted to do sexually SINCE we got married but he constantly told me how gross it was, so I have been stifling this desire. I know he did not MEAN to cause me to stifle this because he said this BEFORE he knew that was what I was into, but I have always felt if he knew my sexual side, he would think I was a ****.
SO...after reading this thread, I turned it on and turned the tables on him. At first, he thought I was mad, then said that I was playing with him. He did not believe me....I showed him, told him my desires and let it all out.
I have never seen my husband so turned on in my life, but now this vixon is out of the cage and he better hold on tight.
Also, I had to explain to him that my sex drive is reactive, he needs to turn the buttons to turn the stove on, he needs to light my fire.
145Likes
Re: A question for LD persons 
