I am looking for a real life WWYD in this situation - lets assume getting another job is NOT on the table for the moment. Just want to know how you would proceed in this environment.
You have three bosses over your head - your immediate supervisor, the associate manager, and the president.
Your immediate supervisor is a real turd. He comes in for maybe 1-2 hours a day, if that, whatever time he feels like it. Even though your company has a very strict policy on working hours, he consistently has an excuse every morning to be 2-3 hours late...every excuse in the book has been used. You know they are lies. He does no real work when in the office, and has no care in the world about deadlines. When clients call him looking for their work, he gives them your name and phone number, without informing you about it. When you need to talk to him, you can almost never get ahold of him. He reports that he is working 50-60 hours each week (keep in mind that he gets paid overtime) and when in the office, complains loudly about how hard he works, yet you know for a fact that he is lying about where he is 90% of the time. (Saying he is in meetings or visiting job sites when he is really at home.) He makes well over double your salary. You are basically doing HIS job and your job, yet you do not get paid to do so, and you get no recognition for it. You continue to do the work to keep deadlines going because now every client has your name and phone number as their contact and calls you to check on the status of their work, completely bypassing your supervisor (who never answers his calls).
You are fairly sure that HIS boss, the associate manager, is covering for him and is allowing this to continue. People in the company have noticed his lackadaisical attitude but associate manager is always quick to make an excuse for him or to make up a place he must be when he is not in the office. The associate manager is the one who approves his time charges each week and who allows him to be paid for 50-60 hours each week. The associate manager also tells you to handle all of the client calls that you get on a consistent basis because your immediate supervisor is too busy with outside meetings and site visits to handle them. (This is said in a manner like "Be a team player and help him with handling these clients, he is just swamped and has been killing himself working overtime, and just CANT be in the office constantly to talk to everyone who calls.)
The president has approached you at one point and told you that if you have any information on what is really going on with him, or if you know anything fishy is going on, to tell him. (I am assuming the president is realizing there is something wierd going on between both he and associate manager.)
You dont immediately blurt out everything you know to the President, in fear of what being a whistle-blower might do to your job. Maybe both of them would get fired, but maybe not, and they have been successfully lying as a team now for 2 years...so worst case scenario they would do something to tarnish your reputation or just make your life a living hell.
You simply tell the president that you know nothing but will keep your eyes and ears open for him. In the meantime you keep your head down and keep working, but you are extremely fed up at doing the work of two people and watching your immediate supervisor get paid for hours he does not really work.
I would document everything that you are saying maybe even some video tape of the time clock and what time he is showing up etc
I would also contact a employment lawyer and find out what safe guards you can do for your job. Also you could anonomously inform your president of what is going on versus telling him in person or you could just tell him person and that you are worried about retaliation etc he will get to the bottom of it who knows you might a promo and raise.
I'd be tempted to spill but I'd get proof first
cover your ass - don't accuse him of being at home when he's supposed to be on site visits if you can't prove it
I was in the "keep your mouth shut" camp until you said that the President had come to you and specifically asked.
Ask for an appt with the Pres. Ask him directly what kind of safeguards he will provide for you if you disclose any information about your supervisors.
Sounds to me like he has some pretty strong suspicions and needs you to confirm them -- and you could score some big points with him, but you do need to safeguard your job.
I was in a similar situation that involved a high level manager taking huge kickbacks. When approached because the director said that I was "a person of integrity, and someone he could trust", my options were limited. I asked for secrecy, AND assurances that the accusations to the manager would be worded in such a way that my input would never be suspected, and got it.
As someone who would be the president in your situation IMO this is horrifically bad advice. While you can contact an attorney and no one may ever know - it usually doesn't work out that way and once your employer knows you've talked to an attorney you can expect nothing good. Especially if you work in an "at will" state meaning that you work at your employers discretion. In at will states an employer's only obligation to not violate federal anti-discrimination laws meaning I could fire one of my employees because they're ugly. I couldn't fire them because of race, ethnicity, creed, or age - but I could fire them because they're ugly IMO and I'm fine with the law.
As someone who would be the president in your situation IMO this is horrifically bad advice. While you can contact an attorney and no one may ever know - it usually doesn't work out that way and once your employer knows you've talked to an attorney you can expect nothing good. Especially if you work in an "at will" state meaning that you work at your employers discretion. In at will states an employer's only obligation to not violate federal anti-discrimination laws meaning I could fire one of my employees because they're ugly. I couldn't fire them because of race, ethnicity, creed, or age - but I could fire them because they're ugly IMO and I'm fine with the law.
Me - I'd keep my mouth shut.
yes you also have the whistleblower statues that would be covered my advice is contacting an atty concerning the situation was purely for cya purposes if his immediate supervisor tried to fire him he doesnt have to say give the name of the company to the atty but just find out his safeguards I didnt mean for him to start an action
yes you also have the whistleblower statues that would be covered my advice is contacting an atty concerning the situation was purely for cya purposes if his immediate supervisor tried to fire him he doesnt have to say give the name of the company to the atty but just find out his safeguards I didnt mean for him to start an action
I know - but I've never seen anything good come from bringing attorneys into a situation unless it was already totally unsalvageable when you talk to them. In my experience attorneys take away options, not add them, unless your legal options are all you're interested in.
I'll work with someone on almost any issue - employee, customer, bystander - it doesn't matter. But the very second someone even says attorney it changes what I say and do.
As someone who would be the president in your situation IMO this is horrifically bad advice. While you can contact an attorney and no one may ever know - it usually doesn't work out that way and once your employer knows you've talked to an attorney you can expect nothing good. Especially if you work in an "at will" state meaning that you work at your employers discretion. In at will states an employer's only obligation to not violate federal anti-discrimination laws meaning I could fire one of my employees because they're ugly. I couldn't fire them because of race, ethnicity, creed, or age - but I could fire them because they're ugly IMO and I'm fine with the law.
Me - I'd keep my mouth shut.
I am interested in your perspective.
Would you want to know if one of your employees knew something like this? Would you even believe it?
Those of you who said I might get bonus points for tattling - isn't that kind of a shameful way to get a promotion or raise? Not that I don't want that, but seems like a backhanded way of getting it.
If you were going to tell would you involve HR?
Some more details, not sure if they are relevant:
Associate manager is a friend of the president, has been with the company since its inception 20 yrs ago. He is most likely candidate in line for the position when president retires.
Immediate supervisor is personal friends with associate manager. They hang out on weekends and after work and associate manager recommended him for the position. I am sure associate manager is in a bad spot not wanting to look like he made a bad call with his referral and also not wanting to lose a friendship. My personal outlook is that this makes associate manager a dumbass.
The proof I have is that I know where supervisor lives (have been to his house, we are actually on good terms despite this nonsense) and have ridden by when he says he's at job sites and seen that he is home. Also I know supervisors knows I am not dumb but I hear this "be a team player" speech at least once a week and also bribes that they would cover for me and help me lie on my time charges if I ever wanted to take a few days off without using personal time. I have never accepted this offer and always carry myself honestly 100% Posted via Mobile Device
Would you want to know if one of your employees knew something like this? Would you even believe it?
Those of you who said I might get bonus points for tattling - isn't that kind of a shameful way to get a promotion or raise? Not that I don't want that, but seems like a backhanded way of getting it.
If you were going to tell would you involve HR?
Some more details, not sure if they are relevant:
Associate manager is a friend of the president, has been with the company since its inception 20 yrs ago. He is most likely candidate in line for the position when president retires.
Immediate supervisor is personal friends with associate manager. They hang out on weekends and after work and associate manager recommended him for the position. I am sure associate manager is in a bad spot not wanting to look like he made a bad call with his referral and also not wanting to lose a friendship. My personal outlook is that this makes associate manager a dumbass.
The proof I have is that I know where supervisor lives (have been to his house, we are actually on good terms despite this nonsense) and have ridden by when he says he's at job sites and seen that he is home. Also I know supervisors knows I am not dumb but I hear this "be a team player" speech at least once a week and also bribes that they would cover for me and help me lie on my time charges if I ever wanted to take a few days off without using personal time. I have never accepted this offer and always carry myself honestly 100% Posted via Mobile Device
A lot of people here work for very different types of companies than I do, and the culture can be radically different. But I would be fired for not telling if it every came up, into the light. At any salary grade, we have to sign an annual statement about our support of certain values, and then when you reach another level, incidences like yours are specfically covered in a list of scenarios we must answer to, and we have to answer, or be contacted by legal services.
But yes, I would go to HR. In fact, when my director asked me the questions about my own experience, he let me know that the global HR manager was sitting beside him in his office, on the phone. I would've never revealed anything without them being there, personally. The person implicated in the wrongdoing could easily fire me if HR did not do their job, but I was in an impossible situation, considering that it seemed likely that other people knew of the kickbacks, and any one of them could have reason to expose it at some point.
Me, I'm in a borderline executive level position, as a global technology platform manager, but it is in a company with over 100,000 employees. I'd want to know, especially if I already asked. To me, one of the most important things you could do, if you chose to come forward, is to convey in a meaningful way that you have no ulterior motive in exposing this, and have no axe to grind. And you will respect the manager's decision either way as to how he addresses it.
I have a similar issue, and My advice would be to start documenting everything possible, and do not make accusations that cannot be proven, because you lose ALL cred when that happens
There is a reason that the associate manager is covering for him. I wonder what he has on the associate manager? Or maybe they have some kind of deal that enables both of them to skim money from the company.
You might want to tell the President that he should keep very close tabs on both of them to verify the number of hours they are working, where they are, etc.
Keep very good records of all the communications you have with customers so you can prove that you are doing the work. If you communicate with customers via email.. keep the emails. Or start using email to communicate with them for his reason.
If the President were to question your manager about the accounts he will not know what the status of the accounts are will he? But you will. ... soemthing to think of.
Well unlike Halien my company is small, a little over 100 employees. So I know or can know quickly the personalities and people involved easily. Would I want to know if someone was stealing from my company (which if your belief is 100% accurate is exactly what they are doing) of course. However if you walked into my office and told me that I would not run out of my office swinging a broadsword looking for heads. I can tell you this, the more you asked me for protection or not reveal to the involved parties who they're accuser is the more I would question your motives, once maybe twice is ok, but don't hammer it. I'm a fairly smart guy, I know if I go to your boss and say, "Johnny says your stealing time - WTF?!?!" that if I don't fire that boss he's going to make Johnny's life hell. I would expect that 1) if you are speaking the truth you don't really need my protection and 2) that you would give me a little credit to investigate the situation - if I find you are looking out for my interest I'll take care of you - if I find your are being malicious, petty, vindictive, manipulative, or are lying I'll feed you to the wolves and let your peers handle you. All of what I just said is the benefit of a small company, I can get right into the middle of people fast. We don't have a HR dept - I'm it - so we can be more free form. In big corporate environments the people are constrained by policies they didn't write and can't change, there is more CYA, and the person you're talking to may or may not have company's best interest at heart.
Does the president own the company? What I would say is that once you let this genie out of the bottle something will change and you won't be able to put the genie back if you don't like what it is that changes. My response may seem a little counterintuitive to some, but way more often than not when someone comes to me with an accusation about another employee it turns out to be petty politics between them and not a threat to the company. As a result I take this kind of thing with a grain of salt.
The presidents not up to much if he can’t handle such SIMPLE problems by himself or by hiring outside private detective help. It seems he wants to get you involved. Again that's not a wise move at all on his behalf.
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