For brevity's sake, I won't quote both of your posts. I will say, though, that I'm very thankful of the work you guys put in. I'm a programmer, I write code all day that hundreds of end users interact with. I fully understand the ups and downs of bringing a product to market (so to speak) and watching that product be used in ways both good and bad, intended and unintended, yadda yadda yadda.
In saying that, I fully appreciate the job you guys do. You do a far better job than I would. I fully support the different mechanisms you guys have for mediating what goes on here. And in spite of some of my observations, I do still consider this place one of the most invaluable tools in handling marriage that there ever was. I would honestly put this place above many counselors. I think part of the problem (as Lon alluded to) is that maybe I've allowed my own perceptions and desires to color how I wish this site was developing.
me too, I found this place at a time I needed it, and the community here has become a part of my life, it is a godsend in a way (if I do not let myself get addicted that is)
While I of course am pro-marriage..As a WS I tend to tell these BSs that the WS will continue to cheat, be unremorseful or immature and not take the marriage seiously unless the BS gives a consequence like kicking them out or cutting them off. I guess because of my own experience I feel it's the only way to wake up the WS from the fog. That does not mean divorce them but hey sometimes the BS needs to be told to stop letting that behavior happen. Alot of them just sit there and wait and do nothing expecting the WS to just come around.. Well because of this site my husband took the advice of many here and did the 180, kicked me out and it saved our marriage. I do understand everyone's story is different tho. Posted via Mobile Device
What I'm about to describe is one of the most common communication problems I see on this site. It creates a lot of animosity and shuts people down to the message being sent.
I learned this early on from my experience going to AA meetings.
My experience has been, that people will do better getting through to others by talking about their experience in terms of "my experience has been..." or "this is what worked for us...".
Like what CSS just described, if I were to reply to a post and only say, "you need to kick her out (the WS)," it's not going to come across as well as saying, "for us, the only thing that made me change was when my husband kicked me out."
By framing things from our own experience, people will be more open to what we have to say, as opposed to telling them what they need to do as if it will work for everyone in every situation.
No one can tell us that our own experience is wrong. It's the way we perceived a situation in our life, and it is very personal. By sharing that with others, we give them another perspective that can't hurt.
The flip side of that, is coming on TAM and hurling advice like a brick, as if we're know-it-all relationship gurus. There is a fine line between the two, and it can make all the difference in the world when it comes to communication.
Chris,
One of my favorite computer games of all time is Sim City. And here at TAM, you have created a virtual community that has just the right mix of infrastructure (including the mods) to draw an ever growing pool of "Peeps?". "Posters" seems to bland.
This site has had an exceptionally positive impact on my own marriage.
I think you have drawn the line in just the right place with regard to forum conduct. And I like the idea of a reconciliation area where a different standard of conduct applies. That way people like "This is Me" who has reconciled doesn't need to tell folks like me not to rain on his parade.
I am glad Davielli initiated this thread, as it reminded me of the importance of being consciously "pro" marriage. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris H.
Thanks so much for the feedback. I really appreciate that you guys took the time to post this.
When I started this site, I envisioned it becoming a great place where people could come for marriage advice and support. I don't want it to veer off from that path.
The topic you bring up is something we have discussed in the mod section quite a few times. I recently made a few minor changes to the CWI & Reconciliation sections to kind of "nudge" things in the right direction.
The "Reconciliation Stories" section was renamed to "Reconciliation" and is now a section not just for success stories, but also for people who are focused on reconciliation.
My hope was that this will give them a safer place to post without being hounded to constantly leave their spouse. I think repeated calls for divorce in this section would be disrespectful and fall under forum rule #1.
Like Deejo mentioned - we somewhat rely on reported posts to police the site as well, so we need help from the community in this regard.
Deejo also wrote the sticky I recently posted in CWI - a reminder to be civil and consider our own issues and how they affect what we post.
That being said. We are limited somewhat because of a few issues:
1. We do want people to get a wide variety of responses, opinions, and angles on their problem, because that is how we find the solution that is best fitting for our own situations.
2. As long as the posts are respectful opinions, there is not much we can do under the present forum rules, and we haven't been able to come up with any rules that would work better for this situation.
I think overall, we do want to lean towards making marriage work here on TAM, but our community is our community. I don't know what else we could do without being too controlling.
The disrespectful stuff - name calling, and personal attacks - has no place on the site, and we usually ban people as soon as we see it. Please continue to report those types of posts.
Good idea, it would be easier to hear "in my experience" rather than "you should!" Posted via Mobile Device
I get what you are saying. However, this is a hard to win situation.
Usually if one asks for advice they are indeed expecting "you should". At least on important things. Certainly "you could" with options is not bad either.
Saying "in my experience" is fine and dandy. But I find that exasperating too at times. It depends. Also it is very self centered from a poster. You get told it is about the OP and not you. So in the PC world one can get caught up in nuance and never get to the heart of the matter with layers of disclaimer and ambiguities. Kinda like listening to a politician. It becomes controlling behavior in iteself to tell folks how to provide their input. Certainly one has to follow guidelines. I guess this falls under ettiquette. I get that too. Some folks want the cold hard views. Tough love works for some and it appears not all. And that leads to ...
But in my experience on TAM I think one could choose to look at the aggregate. Meaning that people can come here for advise and they get a blend of views in varying ways of expression. This diversity I see as a strength. I even get a kick out of the threads intended to group and ridicule other posters postitions. Good that they can vent but in all seriousness is it really good to sensor those you disagree with? Fortuntely that has not happened on TAM.
All the above said I will endeavor to use IME ( In My Experince ) more.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
Last edited by Entropy3000; 07-14-2012 at 05:55 PM.
I really like this place and feel it is far more tame than a lot of other sites I have visited as far as disrespect goes. Some sites are awful! When I first came here, I felt for the most part that it was a lot of level headed people that were willing to give good advice. Before I ever found this site, I wonder if one like it was even possible. On most sites like this, every other thread is about penis length, or some other topic just to fill space or arouse attention.
I will say, however, that I am also a little surprised at how much pro-divorce seems to surface a lot. I guess I'm just from the old school of making it work. I'm not for staying married at all costs. I think cheating and abuse are good reasons. My wife divorced me just because she "wasn't happy." Well, gee, from what I hear she's not happy now either. Divorce didn't really solve anything for her, it just created a load of new problems to make her unhappy, and those problems can't really be worked out, they are just there.
I think TAM is less pro divorce and more pro healthy marriage. More pro human dignity. I think it is pro healthy boundaries. That having poor boundaries for the sake of keeping a toxic marriage going is more than foolish and actually keeps a couple from getting the marriage back on track. Being willing to let someone go and refusing to tolerate a degenerating marriage is often what is needed to save it. Living in the same house and supporting / enabling a cheater is not a marriage.
My wife and I are in our 36th year of marriage. I had an EA umteen years ago. My wife did not rug sweep it. She did the right thing by calling me on it. I thought it was just a friendship, but she was right. Because she had good boundaries and insisted I stop the relationship, she saved our marriage.
Advising folks to reconsile with spouses who continually degrade and disrepsect them is not pro marriage at all. To reverse such a situation requires dedication to changing things not dedication to put up with things.
I think TAM is one of a very few places on the internet where human dignity is valued instead of pulling those down even further. To berate people that they are jealous, insecure and controlling when what they really are is dedicated, loving and caring is very cruel and damaging indeed.
The BSs get plenty of guilt and bad advice from all corners. It is wonderful that they can find a haven where people might actually give a care for their dignity. Advising all to stay in a toic situation is wrong. But again, it may be their only real chance to save the marriage by being willing to let the WS go.
That said, I agree with the above. This walk away wife stuff is unsettling.
I actually had no understanding of this before TAM. I am beginning to get it. I also get that many men do not see the symtoms in time. But a marriage is a two way street. I absolutely believe in couples working things out but there are indeed deal breakers. It is only fair that the couple knows what those are before they happen.
Mainly I find the lack of good boundaries as unsettling though. Folks that come on and declare right away they are ok with this or that. That they do not want to be jealous. I think it is very pro marriage to help them get this straightened out and work through it early on. EAs are a big deal and very very common IMO. Engaging with these early on is very pro marriage. I am not one to say "if they are going to cheat they will cheat". That is actually incorrect and shows no understanding of EAs and inappropropriate friendships. These are more common that folks just looking to cheat. These are the marriages that can and should be saved IMO. The others are much more dicey deal.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
Last edited by Entropy3000; 08-04-2012 at 02:01 PM.
I believe in a certain degree of relativism.
There is no " absolute truth."
Cultural relativism states that truth is always relative to some particular frame or reference,eg; language or culture.
Language and culture are derived over time from people and their experiences.
What I see on TAM is a divergence of views from varying backgrounds
[ experiences ] that allows any poster to identify his situation with other people's situation , find common ground and move on.
I have never seen this site as pro ANYTHING but HEALTHY marriages and relationships.
I don't agree with some of the stuff said in some of the forums, eg, Sex In Marriage...But that doesn't mean that the stuff is absolutely wrong or that the particular forum is pro anything.
I believe that some people come to this TAM site at their wits end , and often times in desperation because they have run out of ideas and their situation seems desperate.
It makes no sense telling the wife of an abusive, serial cheating husband , who refuses financially support their kids to seek reconciliation. Chances are that, by the time she has posted here, she has already tried that in her own way, and has failed.
Similarly,it is dishonest for anyone here to advise a betrayed husband whose wayward , serial cheating wife refuses to follow the basic guidelines of full transparency and remorse in reconciliation,to seek further reconciliation.
The posters here can only respond to what is posted,and to a large degree most of the stories of infidelity posted here are cries of help from betrayed spouses who have themselves endured mind boggling vicious attacks and betrayal from those who they have vowed to love ,and who hated them in return.
That being said,everyone's experience is different and relative to a number of things. Ever poster can only post a response based on their experience.What is important is that many divergent views are represented, and the Original Poster has options to choose from.
Former German Chancellor , Otto von Bismarck wrote
"....A fool learns from his mistakes, but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others...."
This site has had an exceptionally positive impact on my own marriage.
Reading the thoughts/stories and growth of others has been a good way for me to consider my own situation. And it's not necessarily even with my own threads but through reading the stories of others. Even if the scenarios don't match, behaviors can, and that has helped me see certain aspects of myself and how I can handle things differently/or inspire thought around the growth and perspective I need. And in turn, begin to make changes within myself.
My husband doesn't like forums. He knows I post but he's not into it. However he has commented a couple of times to me of the changes he's noticed in my behavior. It's not just in our marriage either. I was sharing with him recently about a work scenario and my thoughts and how I handled it, just sharing, and I guess looking to him for his take on it. He actually said that a year ago, he felt I wouldn't have considered it this way and he really sees the changes/growth I've made for myself.
I do think there's something to be said for finding the answers within ourselves, to having quiet and reflection....yet this format has been beneficial to me.
I came here on the edge with my head a mess, and looking back I don't think I realized there was an option for bringing about change in the way that my husband and I have. I definitely have to credit him for going through this journey with me and helping us to be where we're at now. I do remember a post I deleted a long time ago, where a poster suggested (I'm paraphrasing) that I take a look at myself and move forward with love for my husband. It was a short post, but he gave a little insight into his story. He was trying to help. I wasn't agreeable to that mindset at that time. Too caught up in my own head. Something about seeing those words in front of me though played on my mind, and a short time later, I messaged that poster and thanked them, because I was starting to understand what they were sharing. I don't remember who it was.
That said, I agree with the above. This walk away wife stuff is unsettling.
I actually had no understanding of this before TAM. I am beginning to get it. I also get that many men do not see the symtoms in time. But a marriage is a two way street. I absolutely believe in couples working things out but there are indeed deal breakers. It is only fair that the couple knows what those are before they happen.
Same here. I had no idea about the walk away wife thing either. I'd never heard of such a thing, and why would I? I always am amazed that one of the most important things in life basically has no serious instruction aside from some parental comments or a generic class in high school.
Marriage almost seems like an "on the job training", but if you make too many mistakes, you lose your job.
When I read all the newbie stickys I couldn't believe it, I was reading thinking wow that's exactly what I felt. I related to alot of it and also learned alot from everything I read Oh thank heaven for TAM Posted via Mobile Device
Good idea, it would be easier to hear "in my experience" rather than "you should!" Posted via Mobile Device
I used to phrase everything in relation to my experience and all it did was make me come across as self absorbed. I try hard not to tell my pathetic story anymore because truthfully it just doesn't matter.
I used to phrase everything in relation to my experience and all it did was make me come across as self absorbed. I try hard not to tell my pathetic story anymore because truthfully it just doesn't matter.
It's sad that you feel that way, I'm always interested in other people's story : ( Posted via Mobile Device
I used to phrase everything in relation to my experience and all it did was make me come across as self absorbed. I try hard not to tell my pathetic story anymore because truthfully it just doesn't matter.
I find the most interesting posts come from people telling their own stories in the hope that it will help others. If the advice is too general and not rooted in personal experience, it can come off as preachy or sanctimonious. Think what SA's posts would be like without her personal story!
It does cause problems, however, when the personal experience does not match that of the OP. We often assume things and fill in blanks when we are not given enough information from the OP.
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Re: Thoughts On The Current State Of TAM 
me too, I found this place at a time I needed it, and the community here has become a part of my life, it is a godsend in a way (if I do not let myself get addicted that is)
Oh thank heaven for TAM 
