tldr: I find very disturbing the nasty overall tone of posts along with the general content moving away from saving marriages to instead advocating divorce.
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I've been visiting web forums since the AOL days (remember AOL?), and have been lurking/posting on TAM for a little under two years. When I first came here, this forum was one of the most useful forums that I've ever encountered. Over time I've gotten less and less use out of this forum. Obviously, everything that follows is strictly my opinion and is based on the threads that I read, and I certainly don't read them all.
For one thing, the tone of many of the posts has become downright nasty. I get that many posters here are coming from a very emotional standpoint, but that doesn't excuse disrespect. A lot of threads here devolve into bad-mouthing the poster's spouse, and sometimes the OPs problem never get fully addressed. When OPs stop responding, posters congratulate themselves on running off the OP with their "tough love". Many posters seem outright vindictive while hiding behind the concept of "tough love". Many posters come across as far nastier than they'd ever be IRL. That's a side effect of internet anonymity, but I still hate to see it.
I'm an American, I fully believe in free speech, but I also believe we have a duty to use that free speech in a responsible manner. I feel the same way about internet forums. No one likes censorship, but is this forum really improved by name calling, insults, or personal attacks? Not IMO. I endorse the moderator's deleting and banning capabilities (though I'm not currently commenting on specific instances of this). Sometimes you just have to hit users over the head with something to make a point. Without that, there is chaos.
I also fully support the mods reigning in thread jacks. When a poster comes here, they're looking for advice. I think some commentary about the subject matter can be really helpful to the OP. However, when it turns into a pages long back and forth argument between only a few posters, at some point the usefulness is lost on the OP.
The content of the site I also find a bit disturbing these days. I fully realize that the content is user-generated, and I do not in any way endorse the mods trying to "push" a specific agenda on this forum. But that doesn't keep me from being disappointed. For one thing, many posters seem to advocate divorce very quickly. When I first came here, I was amazed at how communication, sympathy, and understanding was advocated. It was very cool and very eye opening. Now it seems that just within a few posts, posters throw around the D ultimatum. "Respect my boundaries or D" seems to be the order of the day around here now.
That has led to a bit of extremism here. Posters go around saying that you should never have opposite-sex friends, women should never be able to have a night out, etc. I get that many posters have been burned, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people are able to do those things in a completely marriage-safe way.
I'm not going anywhere with this rant, just more lamenting that I don't enjoy this forum nearly as much as I once did. Of course no one forces me to come here, but it sucks to watch something you enjoy turn into something you don't.
I to worry about any trend to say divorce as the only option.
That's said I would say there is a philosophy emerging here on TAM that believes that a person who believes in themself and boundaries and s willing to insist upon boundaries and them being respected by their SO is a happier and more attractive person in the marriage.
Over and over we hear of wives and husband who compromise and negotiate with SOs who are not treating them with respect, nor with reasonable boundaries.
People, of both sexes, which have personal values, beliefs, and boundaries of what they will accept from a partner are not only more attractive but the high bar they set in their marriage for themself and their spouse creates a better, stronger marriage. It shows your SO you do care, you do value the relationship, and you are on guard against threats.
So if the worry is that TAM is turning too pro D, I'd agree that would be a bad turn.
But, if the worry is that TAM is turning too pro personal respect, expectations of respect from SOs, and even sensible boundaries for partners then I would disagree.
Certainly other sites do practice marriage at any cost. They advise rug sweeping of affairs, they advise BS that the affair is entirely their fault. I've read sites that blamed wives for their husbands cheating, and advised them to be nicer , loose weight and give him more sex to keep him at home. not ok in my values.
Then there are the evil sites that advise having an affair to improve your marriage, because you deserve it all. Yuck!
I like TAM because it asks people to act with a sense of self respect and respect for others, as well as to expect the same bak. It doesn't advise spouses to suck it up and accept abuse, and it is pro honesty. Posted via Mobile Device
I to worry about any trend to say divorce as the only option.
That's said I would say there is a philosophy emerging here on TAM that believes that a person who believes in themself and boundaries and s willing to insist upon boundaries and them being respected by their SO is a happier and more attractive person in the marriage.
Over and over we hear of wives and husband who compromise and negotiate with SOs who are not treating them with respect, nor with reasonable boundaries.
People, of both sexes, which have personal values, beliefs, and boundaries of what they will accept from a partner are not only more attractive but the high bar they set in their marriage for themself and their spouse creates a better, stronger marriage. It shows your SO you do care, you do value the relationship, and you are on guard against threats.
So if the worry is that TAM is turning too pro D, I'd agree that would be a bad turn.
But, if the worry is that TAM is turning too pro personal respect, expectations of respect from SOs, and even sensible boundaries for partners then I would disagree.
Certainly other sites do practice marriage at any cost. They advise rug sweeping of affairs, they advise BS that the affair is entirely their fault. I've read sites that blamed wives for their husbands cheating, and advised them to be nicer , loose weight and give him more sex to keep him at home. not ok in my values.
Then there are the evil sites that advise having an affair to improve your marriage, because you deserve it all. Yuck!
I like TAM because it asks people to act with a sense of self respect and respect for others, as well as to expect the same bak. It doesn't advise spouses to suck it up and accept abuse, and it is pro honesty. Posted via Mobile Device
I agree 100% on the importance of personal boundaries. That's probably the #1 thing I've gleaned from this forum, the importance of establishing and respecting one's own principles. I had no idea about any of that when I first came here.
I also do not advocate marriage at any costs, and agree with you there, as well.
I guess what I mean is that the sense of finding that common ground with your spouse, of exploring mutual compromises, seems to be on the wane.
I agree 100% on the importance of personal boundaries. That's probably the #1 thing I've gleaned from this forum, the importance of establishing and respecting one's own principles. I had no idea about any of that when I first came here.
I also do not advocate marriage at any costs, and agree with you there, as well.
I guess what I mean is that the sense of finding that common ground with your spouse, of exploring mutual compromises, seems to be on the wane.
I tend to hang around in CWI the most, so the compromises I read about over there tend to be the WS calling the BS controlling and wanting to hang out at the APs house watching movies and drinking with the occasional innocent overnighter. Posted via Mobile Device
I guess what I mean is that the sense of finding that common ground with your spouse, of exploring mutual compromises, seems to be on the wane.
Many people are here because they tried this approach and it didn't work. Hence why they are here.
I know I went this route for years and failed miserably. It took TAM to open my eyes to the way relationships work. Once I understood that I was able to fix the problem.
NOW I'm able to find common ground and explore mutual compromises but I first had to wake my husband up. LOL
Many people are here because they tried this approach and it didn't work. Hence why they are here.
I know I went this route for years and failed miserably. It took TAM to open my eyes to the way relationships work. Once I understood that I was able to fix the problem.
NOW I'm able to find common ground and explore mutual compromises but I first had to wake my husband up. LOL
Totally agree. Obviously many who come here are in dire straights. But I see these kinds of posts in threads where the OP isn't in dire straights, but just looking for more level-headed advice.
Some degree of 'group-think' is virtually inevitable in forum circumstances such as TAM, wherein many people that may have come here for support, find many others in very similar circumstances.
Circumstances that don't necessarily involve a reconciled, and healthy marriage. Which I think most would agree, is very unfortunate.
I for one, very much would have preferred to save my marriage. I'm presuming others feel the same. I remain pro-marriage, even if I am uncertain about whether it is a choice I would make again.
As the mantra often goes here, "You can't control someone else, you can only control yourself."
In that regard, we cannot address 'a tone' or a 'feeling' in terms of the state of the boards at any given time.
We can only address and deal with what people post.
And in that regard, make no mistake, the scope of the forum is far too large for 8 moderators to police every post. This is why we also count on members and contributors to report posts that violate forum guidelines.
In practice, we cannot edit or remove a post, reprimand or ban a user for a guidelines infraction that we aren't aware of.
And moreover, communities such as this are funny things. I'm sure if you were to ask any of the mods, or Chris H. if we want to see relationships heal and marriages succeed, the answer would be unanimous.
There is absolutely nothing I love more, than reading a contributors story that ends well for them and their partner. It's invigorating and full of hope ... for everyone else.
But the reality is ... those aren't the people that feel compelled to seek out an online community for support.
All we can do is support the people that come here, and deal with the consequences of when someone violates the terms of use.
I appreciate that you took the time to post this. It tells me that the site means a lot to you.
Please recognize that there are many, many others that feel the same. Myself included.
We do have posters here that have wonderful relationships, and they serve as beacons of goodwill and role models.
Conversely, many come here and relate to others that are suffering the same painful, and devastating circumstances in which they find themselves. It can be validating ... but not always positive.
We do try our best. And personally, I always hope for the best in terms of outcomes for those that find themselves on TAM.
Thanks again, for your post. Believe me, the moderators are always very well aware of the 'vibe' on the boards ... and much like a marriage, we have to be patient, understanding, communicative, and enforce consequences when necessary.
Thanks for sharing, it was nice to see your opinions.
Sometimes the trends or vibes may go in a direction that a person does not necessarily feel comfortable with, or has a strong personal conviction about. That's okay.
It does MORE good for you to stick around and voice your opinions, even if they differ.
If it seems one-sided, then help make it not that way. Offer your alternative suggestions. It's much easier to just leave. But it's more valuable to provide another option. Just how I see it, anyways.
Just as some that come here, such as myself because of infidelity. I only search the infidelity and divorce forums, because that's what I relate to.
I will admit, that I do not read reconciliation or the success in long term marriage forums, because I don't feel that is a feasible outcome for my marriage.
I respect some advice more than others.... yet when I make a thread, wanting sound advice, I usually get the positive and negatives... that helps me weigh my choices.
I have seen the cheating spouses that have had the guts to post on here, knowing they will get "attacked" still receive support...
As with me, when I am thinking of making a bad choice, the 2x4's help.
Have you considered that it is your own perceptions and biases that have changed and not necessarily the tone of the site?
For me, I also sense a completely different tone from this place as well, but my usage of the site has always been taylored to what I needed to hear at the time... at first it was all on the CWI and going through separation sections, but then it moved more to General area, then life after and social spot, and now I just look at all new threads picking and choosing the ones that sound interesting. So even though what I read here now is much different than the tone I used to get, its simply because I inherintly pick and choose what I wish to participate in.
As for advocacy of divorce, I suspect we are so quick to go there because betrayed spouses are coming here trying to deal with cheating and unremorseful spouses, I mean what other choices do they even have?
that's just the rub, Lon.
What other choices does a betrayed spouse have... when the cheater is unremorseful??
They have whatever choice they make. The BS can choose to stay, it's their life. There are no rules that apply to everyone. There is no book that says all cheaters MUST do A, B, C and if they don't they you need to get divorced.
Advice from those who have been through it is helpful and supportive. But in the end, it's up to them and that needs support too.
Thanks so much for the feedback. I really appreciate that you guys took the time to post this.
When I started this site, I envisioned it becoming a great place where people could come for marriage advice and support. I don't want it to veer off from that path.
The topic you bring up is something we have discussed in the mod section quite a few times. I recently made a few minor changes to the CWI & Reconciliation sections to kind of "nudge" things in the right direction.
The "Reconciliation Stories" section was renamed to "Reconciliation" and is now a section not just for success stories, but also for people who are focused on reconciliation.
My hope was that this will give them a safer place to post without being hounded to constantly leave their spouse. I think repeated calls for divorce in this section would be disrespectful and fall under forum rule #1.
Like Deejo mentioned - we somewhat rely on reported posts to police the site as well, so we need help from the community in this regard.
Deejo also wrote the sticky I recently posted in CWI - a reminder to be civil and consider our own issues and how they affect what we post.
That being said. We are limited somewhat because of a few issues:
1. We do want people to get a wide variety of responses, opinions, and angles on their problem, because that is how we find the solution that is best fitting for our own situations.
2. As long as the posts are respectful opinions, there is not much we can do under the present forum rules, and we haven't been able to come up with any rules that would work better for this situation.
I think overall, we do want to lean towards making marriage work here on TAM, but our community is our community. I don't know what else we could do without being too controlling.
The disrespectful stuff - name calling, and personal attacks - has no place on the site, and we usually ban people as soon as we see it. Please continue to report those types of posts.
Have you considered that it is your own perceptions and biases that have changed and not necessarily the tone of the site?
I think it's both TBH. My own perceptions have definitely changed as I've posted on here on the ups and downs of my admittedly short marriage. Like you, I evolved from the General Discussion, to the Men's Area, then to CWI as I encountered those events in my marriage. It could be that as my needs and experiences have changed, the threads that I take interest in have also changed, and it just so happens that the threads I take interest in now follow the vibes in my OP.
I to worry about any trend to say divorce as the only option.
That's said I would say there is a philosophy emerging here on TAM that believes that a person who believes in themself and boundaries and s willing to insist upon boundaries and them being respected by their SO is a happier and more attractive person in the marriage.
Over and over we hear of wives and husband who compromise and negotiate with SOs who are not treating them with respect, nor with reasonable boundaries.
People, of both sexes, which have personal values, beliefs, and boundaries of what they will accept from a partner are not only more attractive but the high bar they set in their marriage for themself and their spouse creates a better, stronger marriage. It shows your SO you do care, you do value the relationship, and you are on guard against threats.
So if the worry is that TAM is turning too pro D, I'd agree that would be a bad turn.
But, if the worry is that TAM is turning too pro personal respect, expectations of respect from SOs, and even sensible boundaries for partners then I would disagree.
Certainly other sites do practice marriage at any cost. They advise rug sweeping of affairs, they advise BS that the affair is entirely their fault. I've read sites that blamed wives for their husbands cheating, and advised them to be nicer , loose weight and give him more sex to keep him at home. not ok in my values.
Then there are the evil sites that advise having an affair to improve your marriage, because you deserve it all. Yuck!
I like TAM because it asks people to act with a sense of self respect and respect for others, as well as to expect the same bak. It doesn't advise spouses to suck it up and accept abuse, and it is pro honesty. Posted via Mobile Device
I totally agree. I think TAM provides a good chance for people to reclaim a happy and healthy marriage with both parties having respect for themselves and each other.
For brevity's sake, I won't quote both of your posts. I will say, though, that I'm very thankful of the work you guys put in. I'm a programmer, I write code all day that hundreds of end users interact with. I fully understand the ups and downs of bringing a product to market (so to speak) and watching that product be used in ways both good and bad, intended and unintended, yadda yadda yadda.
In saying that, I fully appreciate the job you guys do. You do a far better job than I would. I fully support the different mechanisms you guys have for mediating what goes on here. And in spite of some of my observations, I do still consider this place one of the most invaluable tools in handling marriage that there ever was. I would honestly put this place above many counselors. I think part of the problem (as Lon alluded to) is that maybe I've allowed my own perceptions and desires to color how I wish this site was developing.
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