# Friends of the opposite sex in marriage



## ticktock33 (Jun 6, 2014)

What do you all think about being friends with people of the opposite sex when you're married?

I think it's OK to be friends with the opposite sex with the other friend is also married. But it's a bit strange if they aren't unless they are gay. Or if the couple is friends with the single person, if it's a group thing. Otherwise I would think it gets tricky, I would feel uncomfortable.


----------



## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you're just looking for trouble.

Sooner or later you will find it.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Can't work. At least one wants to screw the other. So if the woman wants sex, it will happen. If the woman DOESN'T want sex, it's pathetic that she wants friendship when the man does not. 

Just don't do it.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

My best friend is a single guy. We've been friends for 14 years. He's even *gasp* an ex boyfriend. 

I have no romantic or sexual interest in him, and if he does for me, well that's his problem. 

If someone can't be friends with the opposite sex without wanting to bang them and wouldn't be friends otherwise, I have to wonder just how much value they put on people in general if their criteria for someone's value is "Can I screw them or not?"


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

By the way, my previous best friend is bisexual. She is divorced from her ex husband and living with a woman. By the opinions here, she should never ever have friends then. She could sleep with any of them! At any time!


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Inquisition?
Friends are confidants, sounding boards, counselors, supporters, therapists and a host of others. If a spouse has a friend of the opposite sex and confides in them issues with the marriage and shares intimate details is it an EA?


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

vms said:


> My best friend is a single guy. We've been friends for 14 years. He's even *gasp* an ex boyfriend.
> 
> I have no romantic or sexual interest in him, and if he does for me, well that's his problem.


Are you married, vms? If your husband was uncomfortable with your being 'best friends' with your ex, what would you do?

Personally, I'm a little suspicious of people who have OS 'best friends'.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

My answer to you is that it's not acceptable to have opposite sex friendships once you are in any committed relationship. All your needs should be met by your partner.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

I don't think there's a solid answer to this. It depends on the relationship. What's important is that you know and respect each others boundaries. 



The Middleman said:


> All your needs should be met by your partner.


My XH expected me to meet all of his socializing needs. I was a lot of pressure, and i often felt like i failed. I would have been thrilled if he had a friendship outside of marriage, male or female.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Answers to this will be biased by individual attitudes, and certainly if burned in the past. It will be influenced by your partner's attitudes and experiences, their behavior, and how much you feel you can trust them.

For us, we have opposite sex friends with no restrictions placed, other than being sure to keep good communication going to maintain the trust.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> All your needs should be met by your partner.


IMO, that's both impossible and delusional.

The only needs that must not be outsourced are sex, lust, emotional intimacy, and romantic love. If those can't be met by your partner, you don't have a relationship anyway. And everything else can be met by your partner and/or others.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> My answer to you is that it's not acceptable to have opposite sex friendships once you are in any committed relationship. All your needs should be met by your partner.


This is probably one of the reasons so many relationships fail these days, honestly. At no point prior in history was there this literal expectation that your spouse should be your only friend, confidante, or source of interest and entertainment or social interaction.

Whether you "believe" in opposite sex friends, there comes a point that unless you are one of those lucky few with a "match made in heaven" or a "true soul mate" your partner is not indeed going to be able to "be your everything." And trying to make them be to remain so insular is probably asking for trouble.

I have a similiar situation to that.girl. My husband literally has no friends, male, female, neuter or otherwise. He had one set of friends a married couple, but that went sour because the wife was still good friends with his ex-wife and likely to peddle dirt from his ex to me to start drama. 

It's awkward for me to want to plan time with female friends knowing he doesn't have "guy time." So I go out of my way to try and find female friends with partners so we could double date. Which for the first time in years, I actually managed to coordinate one where none of the four of us were working and could all go. (Rather than the regular occurrence of hubs being the third-wheel on a girls-outing when my friend's fiancee couldn't make it.)


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

We have tons of opposite sex friends. Married, not, gay, straight. I don't see the problem.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

I had a married OSF who had a very similar personality and taste as my husband. He was very useful while shopping for presents for hubby, and would ask for my advice for gifts for his wife. 
Not everything is about sex. Sometimes people are faithful to their spouses, and just get along well with each other.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Find me a female who is into video games, Rooster Teeth podcast, DIY/home improvement, and comics, and who isn't into spending all f-ing day shopping or getting nails done or b*tching about their job/spouse and/or who isn't defined by their role as a mother, and maybe I'd have the same friendship I have with my male BFF. 

My husband is happy I have that kind of friend. 

However - I don't discuss sex, or any relationship problems, with ANY of my friends. That is not what i need friends for. I need socialization, not emotional support.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

vms said:


> Find me a female who is into video games, Rooster Teeth podcast, DIY/home improvement, and comics, and who isn't into spending all f-ing day shopping or getting nails done or b*tching about their job/spouse and/or who isn't defined by their role as a mother, and maybe I'd have the same friendship I have with my male BFF.


We should hang out. Wanna come over and play GTA?


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Wait, do I have to be into all of those, vms, or some combination of them? 

I'm a female gamer. I met my husband in an online gaming community.  Molten Core run? Lord of the Rings online? Maybe an old school game of Age of Empires via IP? 

And Marvel or DC? Frank Miller? What kind of comics?

I don't get my nails done. I don't really like spending all day shopping, I've just got a weird height to leg ratio that makes buying pants a living hell. Which is part of why I've given up and just embraced the leggings with boot fashion, lol.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Hey, that.girl, maybe we should start a social group here on TAM for female gamers.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

This comes down to the couple. I had never had a problem with opposite sex friends and wouldn't date anyone who tried to control who I have as friends. So long as all people in the realtionship are on the same page it's no issue. When problems comes up is when one person has one expectation and the other feels differently


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> Wait, do I have to be into all of those, vms, or some combination of them?
> 
> I'm a female gamer. I met my husband in an online gaming community.  Molten Core run? Lord of the Rings online? Maybe an old school game of Age of Empires via IP?
> 
> ...


I actually have never played those, or even heard of two. I'm an Xbox and PS3 kinda gal  I like FPS and RPG games like Fallout, Dishonored, Borderlands, and Call of Duty.

Oh and Marvel all the way.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

When dealing with grown up, mature, respectful people OSF should not be an issue. But if you are hanging out with immature, undeveloped individuals then maybe it is an issue.

Grown adults don't go around wanting to hump every leg they see, stupid little dogs do.

No problem here with OSF, I am trustworthy as is my partner. I can appreciate men for who that are not because I want sex with them.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Dishonored looked fun, but I ended up buying Skyrim instead. 

(Well no, to be fair, hubs bought it for me for our anniversary. :rofl


----------



## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

This links sums up my feelings regarding opposite sex friendships.

Can Men and Women Be "Just Friends"? | Psychology Today


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

that.girl said:


> My XH expected me to meet all of his socializing needs. I was a lot of pressure, and i often felt like i failed. I would have been thrilled if he had a friendship outside of marriage, male or female.





Married but Happy said:


> IMO, that's both impossible and delusional.
> 
> 
> 
> The only needs that must not be outsourced are sex, lust, emotional intimacy, and romantic love. If those can't be met by your partner, you don't have a relationship anyway. And everything else can be met by your partner and/or others.



Forgive me if I wasn't clear, I was talking about opposite sex friends only, which in my opinion is not appropriate under any circumstances.


----------



## ticktock33 (Jun 6, 2014)

I think it's possible, my husband and I are OK with a OSF. If things get tricky, then we just have to talk about it and stop it right away. 

But my husband says that it's easier for a woman to be friends with a single guy friend than the other way around. He wouldn't have anything in common with a woman for him to become friends with her. 

But in any case, I trust him and I trust myself. So as long as everyone involved is honest and we can communicate, I don't see the problem.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I think opposite sex friends are fine, but there are obviously things that need to be taken into account, and boundaries that don't apply to same sex friends.

If your SO is going to cheat, they're going to cheat - it won't matter if there's opposite sex friends around or not.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

that.girl said:


> I had a married OSF who had a very similar personality and taste as my husband. He was very useful while shopping for presents for hubby, and would ask for my advice for gifts for his wife.
> Not everything is about sex. Sometimes people are faithful to their spouses, and just get along well with each other.


I can GUARANTEE he would have banged you given the change.

Guarantee.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Holland said:


> Grown adults don't go around wanting to hump every leg they see, stupid little dogs do.


And men do not want to pal around with women for the sake of palling around. That's what we have guy friends for. Lunchtime banter at work. Maybe even the required happy hour with the WHOLE GANG from work.

One-on-one texting, talking, hanging by choice? 99 times out of 100 the man is in it for potential sex.

Or he's secretly gay. 

Girls. I've got terrible news for you. Your male BFF wants to bang you.

Of that I have little to no doubt.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

And so far it's all women saying "he doesn't want me for sex, we're best buds". I need t hear a man say "I have no interest in sex with my OS BFF. I just love to go shopping and watch her get her nails done as we talk about the boys at the office"


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

frusdil said:


> I think opposite sex friends are fine, but there are obviously things that need to be taken into account, and boundaries that don't apply to same sex friends.
> 
> *If your SO is going to cheat, they're going to cheat - it won't matter if there's opposite sex friends around or not.*


*
*


True true. Once you stop seeing a cheater as person who was overcome by circumstance and see them as a person with a "me first character flaw" then you recognize that they will find a way to cheat no matter what.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I can GUARANTEE he would have banged you given the change.
> 
> Guarantee.


That i doubt. He didn't even bang his wife until they were married. He's the most conservative Christian i know.

Some guys will absolutely take it wherever they can get it, and some won't. I've found that a lot of guys who would, don't like their wives to hang out with other guys. For obvious reasons.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> And so far it's all women saying "he doesn't want me for sex, we're best buds". I need t hear a man say "I have no interest in sex with my OS BFF. I just love to go shopping and watch her get her nails done as we talk about the boys at the office"


Check the men's lounge thread on casual opposite sex friendship. You'll find at least one guy there saying that. 

If you're saying all men would do this, I'm assuming you include yourself. But I doubt you represent all men. Maybe the majority, but not all.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Or he's secretly gay.





> And so far it's all women saying "he doesn't want me for sex, we're best buds". I need t hear a man say "I have no interest in sex with my OS BFF. I just love to go shopping and watch her get her nails done as we talk about the boys at the office"


Or you know, it's not a secret and your OSF is you know, gay.



> Girls. I've got terrible news for you. Your male BFF wants to bang you.


When I was in college, I had quite a few guy friends. They treated me like one of the guys. All night LAN parties followed by sleeping on people's couches. No one tried anything, once, over 6 years. (Undergrad + Grad School) So either, they didn't want to bang me, or they could never work up the nerve to try.

I think at the time, I might have been my social group's DUFF though. (Designated Ugly Fat Friend) (I've lost a lot of weight since then.) So maybe they didn't want to risk losing their wingman defense in trying with chicks they were actually interested in. Not sure.


----------



## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> And men do not want to pal around with women for the sake of palling around. That's what we have guy friends for. Lunchtime banter at work. Maybe even the required happy hour with the WHOLE GANG from work.
> 
> One-on-one texting, talking, hanging by choice? 99 times out of 100 the man is in it for potential sex.
> 
> ...


I'm a male and _want_ to bang lots of women, whether I'm friends with them or not. However I've had many great female friends and have never _actually_ banged them because I'm happily married and an adult who can control himself.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Tricky topic to be objective on. Yes men and women can be friends. Sometimes it's harmless and sometimes it's playing with fire. There's a book called 'not just friends' that points out warning signs when it's more than a friendship.

A little respect for biology and psychology goes a long way. OSF shouldn't be a problem for a healthy relationship but even great relationships have their ups and downs. OFSs where there's just no attraction shouldn't be a problem either.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hawkeye said:


> I'm a male and _want_ to bang lots of women, whether I'm friends with them or not. However I've had many great female friends and have never _actually_ banged them because I'm happily married and an adult who can control himself.


Yah my husband does not need to isolate himself from people to not cheat because he loves me, would not want to hurt me and has character.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> And so far it's all women saying "he doesn't want me for sex, we're best buds". I need t hear a man say "I have no interest in sex with my OS BFF. I just love to go shopping and watch her get her nails done as we talk about the boys at the office"


One can still have an opposite sex friend that they might not want to have sex with but still inappropriately emotionally lean on. That's where EAs come from.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This is how myself & H look at it...never really talked about it till we came to TAM.. was never an issue in our marriage, more like something written on the heart.....

When a couple becomes an item / exclusivity / dating...our single opposite sex friends on both sides then need to shift from seeing us as available to "taken"...now we are officially a COUPLE... they then become *OUR friends*...respecting the union..

One of my H's female friends... for example.. she had designs for him...she even told me if I hurt him, she'd kick my a** (No, not her official words but she was looking out for him...and you know what... good for her - to speak to me as she did..I liked her more for that!)...anyway.....when I entered his life, she became MY FRIEND TOO.... I even asked her to be in our wedding !

There are times however, where something may come up & one is alone with a single opposite sex friend....a special circumstance to help one another, once I needed a ride to pick up a car...our single guy friend took me.... once we had tree cutters coming over... had this same guy friend over that day so I wasn't alone with strange men at my house while H was at work.. we went to a concert once with a couple of our kids .. my H stayed home...not as into that group. 

Then my H has went to my friends house after work to help her with her car, or a leak ... but really it's us getting together *as a couple* when we hang with our single opposite sex friends....this is keeping "boundaries" in check pretty much..too much alone time with the opposite sex.. or if there is physical attraction.. well that could get sticky!


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

vms said:


> My best friend is a single guy. We've been friends for 14 years. He's even *gasp* an ex boyfriend.
> 
> I have no romantic or sexual interest in him, and if he does for me, well that's his problem.


 Many believe that once you are in an exclusive relationship that you should no longer have opposite sex friends (OSF). Most that do believe that it is OK to have OSF when in an exclusive relationship, believe that there should be boundaries that exclude having OSF that are exs. Another common boundary is that an OSF can be a friend, but never a best friend.

You of course think that you are different and more enlighten than everyone else, and that human nature does not apply to you and your "best friend" "single guy" "ex boyfriend". Never mind that if you had romantic feelings for someone in the past, that it is possible for you to have romantic feelings for them again. Your significant other (SO) better watch himself and make sure that he does everything he can to be perfect, because you have a backup other man in the wing that is well positioned to take his place should he slip up. And if you do end up rekindling your romantic feelings with you best friend ex boyfriend, your SO would have an almost impossible task finding out because you already have your other man in your daily personal life.

I am not surprised that you are happy with your current situation, because by you keeping your ex boyfriend so close to you in your life, which you say if does have a "romantic or sexual interest" in you "that's his problem", you have unfair extra power in your relationship with your SO, because he knows that you have someone else ready and willing in the wings. Having two men in your daily life in competition for your attention, where both may be romantically interested in you, must be great for you ego.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

that.girl said:


> If you're saying all men would do this, I'm assuming you include yourself. But I doubt you represent all men. Maybe the majority, but not all.


 If the majority of men want to do this like you say, then if you have more than one opposite sex friend, odds are that at least one of them want to.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

TRy said:


> If the majority of men want to do this like you say, then if you have more than one opposite sex friend, odds are that at least one of them want to.


They're welcome to WANT whatever they please, I'm not the thought police. None of them ever made a move, because i was taken. In fact, none have made a move since i left my husband either. 

I don't generally worry about my partner's friends. If he is trustworthy, and a woman makes a pass at him, he will decline. If he's not trustworthy, it won't matter if she's a friend, coworker, or some chick at the grocery store - if he wants to cheat, he'll find someone. 

In my opinion, if i feel the need to worry about my partner's OSFs, what i should really be worried about is my partner.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

TRy said:


> I am not surprised that you are happy with your current situation, because by you keeping your ex boyfriend so close to you in your life, which you say if does have a "romantic or sexual interest" in you "that's his problem", you have unfair extra power in your relationship with your SO, because he knows that you have someone else ready and willing in the wings. Having two men in your daily life in competition for your attention, where both may be romantically interested in you, must be great for you ego.


vms's situation in general isn't working out very well. She thinks her husband is calling it quits and her in-laws hate her. The mindset of it being okay to have an ex as a best friend while married to someone who's gone a lot of the time may have contributed to things getting to where they are. Could be coincidence.


----------



## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

TRy said:


> Many believe that once you are in an exclusive relationship that you should no longer have opposite sex friends (OSF). Most that do believe that it is OK to have OSF when in an exclusive relationship, believe that there should be boundaries that exclude having OSF that are exs. Another common boundary is that an OSF can be a friend, but never a best friend.
> 
> You of course think that you are different and more enlighten than everyone else, and that human nature does not apply to you and your "best friend" "single guy" "ex boyfriend". Never mind that if you had romantic feelings for someone in the past, that it is possible for you to have romantic feelings for them again. Your significant other (SO) better watch himself and make sure that he does everything he can to be perfect, because you have a backup other man in the wing that is well positioned to take his place should he slip up. And if you do end up rekindling your romantic feelings with you best friend ex boyfriend, your SO would have an almost impossible task finding out because you already have your other man in your daily personal life.
> 
> I am not surprised that you are happy with your current situation, because by you keeping your ex boyfriend so close to you in your life, which you say if does have a "romantic or sexual interest" in you "that's his problem", you have unfair extra power in your relationship with your SO, because he knows that you have someone else ready and willing in the wings. Having two men in your daily life in competition for your attention, where both may be romantically interested in you, must be great for you ego.


Oh good god. Maybe, just maybe, she's only friends with the guy and it's not some elaborate plan to gain power and have a backup man to her husband.

I don't know how some of you people get out of bed in the morning being this paranoid.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Is this also going to go the direction of "you can never be friends with an ex?" 

Is it really so hard to fathom that two people discovered they were great friends, but there was no sexual/romantic chemistry there? 

This place is so jaded. It's kinda sad.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> One can still have an opposite sex friend that they might not want to have sex with but still inappropriately emotionally lean on. That's where EAs come from.


One can have a same-sex friend they emotionally lean on inappropriately too. Which, might not get labeled an EA though perhaps it should.

If you always call up your buddy to talk about your day, or chit-chat, or complain about your wife. But clam up and don't talk to your wife, and don't try and solve the things you are complaining about, that could be damaging to your relationship whether the person in question is the same sex or opposite sex.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

that.girl said:


> I don't generally worry about my partner's friends. If he is trustworthy, and a woman makes a pass at him, he will decline. If he's not trustworthy, it won't matter if she's a friend, coworker, or some chick at the grocery store - if he wants to cheat, he'll find someone.


 Studies show that most people that cheat did not go into it wanting to cheat. Most never thought of themselves as the type of person that would ever cheat. Most had boundaries that allowed them to get too close to someone such that they unexpectedly developed feelings for that someone. 

Here is the rub of human nature. Science tells us that there are very addictive brain drugs that get produced in large quantities only with new relationships, were the quantities produced fade over time the longer that people are in a relationship. These brain drugs are very similar to cocaine in how they work. Hopefully by the time that these drugs stop being produced in large quantities, other feelings have had a chance to develop that will bond people to their spouses. Thus a new relationship has the potential to offer people these addictive brain drugs in quantities that they can no longer get from their spouse. 

And there is another rub, when people have affairs they usually are not picking the affair partner over their spouse. They are picking both the affair partner and the spouse. So no matter how great the spouse is as a spouse, they cannot be greater than both themselves and the affair partner. Weak opposite sex boundaries tempt human nature, and allow feelings to develop that might otherwise not have developed with healthy boundaries.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

hawkeye said:


> Oh good god. Maybe, just maybe, she's only friends with the guy and it's not some elaborate plan to gain power and have a backup man to her husband.


 It does not have to be some elaborate plan that she has to gain power for it to be the reality of the situation. 

Also, although it may not be her plan, it could very well be the plan of her ex. If you Google "how to steal a woman from her man" and you will see that there are many sites that tell men how to do this. The standard advice always given is to first be their friend, and then use that friendship to let her vent about her man. These sites tell you that no one is perfect, so no matter who her man is, there will always be issues that they can exploit. On one such site is titled “Taking Another Man's Woman: Part II”, typical of these sites, it says such things as “She has to perceive your intentions as being strictly innocent and friendly. Getting her to accept you as a friend is very important because later in the strategy, she will have to trust your opinion about her relationship. If she views your intentions as wanting to seduce her, she will not value your opinion.” Also typically of these sites, one site said "Cause/encourage the breakup”. Similarly, another site said "You want to make the girl you want to steal away feel like she can do a lot better than the guy she is currently with. How do you do this? It is quite easy. You want to wait for the perfect opportunity to get your jabs in. Sooner or later she will mention something negative.” If that is her best friend single guy ex boyfriend's strategy, she is playing along perfectly.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

If I talked about my relationship with any of my friends, I probably wouldn't be on here. I find complaining to anyone about a relationship in person that isn't a counselor of some form to be inappropriate. 

I cannot stand when my female friends attempt to talk to me about whatever issues they are having in their marriage. I don't want to know. I shut those conversations down. They are learning that I'm not the friend to go to if they want to complain about their present or past relationships. I'm not a surrogate ear for the person they should be talking to - their partner or a counselor. 

After bring here a couple of weeks, I'm not even sure anonymous forums are a good idea. It's too easy to be the victim.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Do what's best for your marriage and let other people do what's best for theirs.

Can't handle OSF? Don't have them and make sure you marry someone who agrees.

Whether other people chose to have them really shouldn't be any of your concern and has no bearing on your, or their, marriage.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

vms said:


> Is this also going to go the direction of "you can never be friends with an ex?"
> 
> Is it really so hard to fathom that two people discovered they were great friends, but there was no sexual/romantic chemistry there?
> 
> This place is so jaded. It's kinda sad.


It probably will even though that's a different topic. I hope you don't take my previous comment to mean "never". There are always exceptions. Plus the definition of "friend" is so ambiguous in these threads.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

vms said:


> Is this also going to go the direction of "you can never be friends with an ex?"
> 
> Is it really so hard to fathom that two people discovered they were great friends, but there was no sexual/romantic chemistry there?
> 
> This place is so jaded. It's kinda sad.


This place is just extremely experienced with betrayal and human nature. Ideally, I agree that OSF should be ok. It gets tricky in practice.

I think it is up to each couple what their boundaries are. I am ok with it, to an extent, but my wife isn't so I am fine with ssf. We don't allow exes as friends. Both if us are way too possessive and jealous.

Does not mean other couples could be fine with it. I believe Try has a good point that when things go south, there could be more temptation with osf.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vanille (Dec 13, 2014)

If they were just friends before dating/marriage then yeah sure. If they are new besties then nope nope nope!


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> It probably will even though that's a different topic. I hope you don't take my previous comment to mean "never". There are always exceptions. Plus the definition of "friend" is so ambiguous in these threads.


I'm learning that I really have a different definition of "friends" or at least, how friends behave with each other. 

My friends and I don't have deep heart-to-hearts. I don't complain to them about my marriage (I rarely will even discuss my marriage with my mother or grandma) or talk about my past unless there's a context that requires it (such as a few friends may have to testify at my upcoming custody hearing). I don't discuss sex with them, although I will joke about it if something funny comes up. But I don't talk about it in terms of my own sex life. I don't sit close to them, I don't touch any of them in any fashion, I don't behave in intimate ways with any of them at all. That sort of behavior is reserved entirely for my husband and daughter. 

I will be very talkative and outgoing with people, but I keep my distance emotionally and physically. Don't touch me and don't expect me to get all personal about stuff.


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> Forgive me if I wasn't clear, I was talking about opposite sex friends only, which in my opinion is not appropriate under any circumstances.



I don't see why the default position should be to end all OS friendships once you are married. Certainly they should change though. 

And VMS mentioned a bisexual friend. Should bisexuals who are married not be allowed any friends whatsoever?


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

spunkycat08 said:


> This links sums up my feelings regarding opposite sex friendships.
> 
> Can Men and Women Be "Just Friends"? | Psychology Today


I read the article.

One surprising thing it stated, is that a lot of women expected their male osf's to pay for their outings????

If a guy takes you on _unreciprocated_, paid get-togethers. It isn't a get-together; it's a date.

-----------------

This is the kind of issue that reminds me of that saying, "There are two kinds of people in the world" . . . . people who believe in osf's after marriage, and people who don't.

I see folks like jacquen, hawkeye, that.girl, vms, marriedbuthappy (and others) -- clearly in support of osf's.

I admire you guys. I'm even kind of envious of you. And, I hope that we naysayers are wrong, and you always enjoy your osf's without any problems.

We all bring our past to the party, I suppose. So, I have to definitely "cast my vote" against osf's after marriage. It's too bad. Some of the best personalities are contained within male bodies. But there are too many things that can go wrong. So, for me it's not worth it.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

intheory said:


> I read the article.
> 
> *One surprising thing it stated, is that a lot of women expected their male osf's to pay for their outings????*
> 
> ...


I've never heard that (the bolded part). My BFF and I take turns paying. He buys dinner, next time I buy dinner, or lunch, or whatever. Not that we are keeping score or something, we just try to take turns paying cause it's the fair thing to do.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

intheory said:


> I read the article.
> 
> One surprising thing it stated, is that a lot of women expected their male osf's to pay for their outings????
> 
> If a guy takes you on _unreciprocated_, paid get-togethers. It isn't a get-together; it's a date.


This is one of the many reasons that I made my (future) husband clean house before I went any further with him.

I found out that he had closed the bar tab for her and her friends twice.

Fast forward 8 months, her bf messages my future H just hours before her b-day party at a pub, saying"you're more than welcome to join us for your friend / my gf's birthday." 

At 11pm that night, closing time for the pub, she texted my husband asking (verbatim) "why didn't you come?" What better way to show someone that you are no more than a walking credit card to them.

I really don't think my husband had anymore value to her than that facility. But I realise when someone goes down a certain path, they would rather deny reality than admit that they were wrong. Of course, my husband denies that he was only invited to close the bar tab. But he has since dropped the whole charade of friendship with this woman.


----------



## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I went for coffee with my OSF today. I texted her a couple days ago and she set a time we could meet up. As soon as I new the day and time I let my wife know I was going. She has never had a problem with me seeing my friend (at least she's never said anything)and I don't have a problem with her going to lunch with the guys she went to college with. 

My friend and I never flirt but we will bounce the odd family problem off of each other for ideas on how to work things out at home. Her daughter used to babysit my kids and I'm friends with her husband as well. He has never had a problem with my friend and I meeting up either. We only meet up a few times a year just to catch up on things and we'll text each other every so often. If my wife asks who I'm texting I'll just hand her my phone and let her look for herself. I have nothing to hide from her and I know she would give me her phone if I asked.

If you want to have OSF while married, the responsible thing to do is have good boundaries you and your partner agree on. If either of you have any trust or jealousy issues you are best not to have OS friends.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Here's some food for thought:

8 Reasons Being Friends with Your Ex Is Overrated | Women's Health Magazine


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

vms said:


> I'm learning that I really have a different definition of "friends" or at least, how friends behave with each other.
> 
> My friends and I don't have deep heart-to-hearts. I don't complain to them about my marriage (I rarely will even discuss my marriage with my mother or grandma) or talk about my past unless there's a context that requires it (such as a few friends may have to testify at my upcoming custody hearing). I don't discuss sex with them, although I will joke about it if something funny comes up. But I don't talk about it in terms of my own sex life. I don't sit close to them, I don't touch any of them in any fashion, I don't behave in intimate ways with any of them at all. That sort of behavior is reserved entirely for my husband and daughter.
> 
> I will be very talkative and outgoing with people, but I keep my distance emotionally and physically. Don't touch me and don't expect me to get all personal about stuff.


For me there are different degrees of friendship. What you describe above would be an acquaintance or very casual friend for me.

My closest and best friends? I am very intimately bonded, and very deep running, with those people. Most of them are men (none of my best friends are women). But I do have a few true, close female friends. 

The boundaries between the men and women are different. And that's naturally, through no effort on my part, or rules or regulations from my wife.

I don't complain about my marriage to my friends. There frankly is very little to complain about, and even if there was, it doesn't feel natural or right to me to bad mouth my wife at all. She's sweetness and light, and one of the best things that's ever happened to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

My husband is my BFF. It would not occur to me to have a different BFF than him. We do so little socially that is not together, the point is fairly moot.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Holland said:


> When dealing with grown up, mature, respectful people OSF should not be an issue. But if you are hanging out with immature, undeveloped individuals then maybe it is an issue.
> 
> Grown adults don't go around wanting to hump every leg they see, stupid little dogs do.


This is complete bullsh!t. 

There are plenty of mature people who have OSFs they would bang if they were single, or would otherwise be with if they were single. Maturity doesn't shut off biology.

And if your marriage isn't 100% perfect, hanging with OSFs is a great way to make it worse.

Signed,

1000s of people who've been cheated on by their spouses with their OSFs.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> This is complete bullsh!t.
> 
> There are plenty of mature people who have OSFs they would bang if they were single, or would otherwise be with if they were single. Maturity doesn't shut off biology.
> 
> ...


It is always a bit baffling to me when people seek to control who their spouses are hanging with, an external effort to stop cheating, but choose not to deal with the root issue, that not 100% perfect marriage.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is always a bit baffling to me when people seek to control who their spouses are hanging with, an external effort to stop cheating, but choose not to deal with the root issue, that not 100% perfect marriage.


:iagree:

There's a big difference in OSF in a healthy marriage and OSF in a marriage that is faltering and/or has infidelity in the past. 

I had an uncle who was an alcoholic for more than 25 years. He lost many jobs because he wasn't one of those high functioning alcoholics who could do their drinking in secret. Just because he couldn't handle his liquor doesn't mean that other people have the same problems. He clearly needed to have boundaries around alcohol, but others can have a few drinks and be fine with it without getting addicted to alcohol.

Same with OSF. Some people can handle it. Some can't. Don't assume that just because it can't work in your marriage with your spouse that it's the same for all other marriages. 

I've mentioned in the past that I have OSF. They aren't very close and they don't come to my home either. My contact with them is mostly working lunches or emails or exchanges on some public forum. My husband knows my email accounts and passwords. He's very, very computer savvy so he could monitor me if he wanted to, but won't. I showed him some of the responses in this thread. He laughed and shook his head at some of the things said here. We've been together over 20 years. We have a family together. There aren't any secrets between us. I stay with him because I want to, not because he has a tight leash on me or vice versa. If you can't trust your spouse not to drop their pants around a members of the OSF, I think you have deeper marital issues in your marriage than OSF.


----------



## Pollo (Oct 17, 2014)

vms said:


> My best friend is a single guy. We've been friends for 14 years. He's even *gasp* an ex boyfriend.
> 
> I have no romantic or sexual interest in him, and if he does for me, well that's his problem.


That's really terrible. And if you're actually spending time with someone who wants to do you then I feel really sorry for your husband. I really wonder about the type of guys that would be ok with their wife being "best friends" with an ex-boyfriend.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Not only is hubby totally fine with it, he asked me if I had a key to D's house when I had been without hot water for two days and was surprised that I didn't, as he has a key to mine for when he petsits (I had frozen pipes, and my grandma next door had no water at all due to burst pipes). 

He saw zero reason why I wouldn't go use D's shower. 

That's what trust looks like. Considering I've never cheated in any way on him, even when he was overseas for two years, he has no reason to not trust me. 

Lack of trust when it's unfounded is a problem that exists only in the head of someone insecure in themselves.


----------



## Pollo (Oct 17, 2014)

:rofl:


vms said:


> Not only is hubby totally fine with it, he asked me if I had a key to D's house when I had been without hot water for two days and was surprised that I didn't, as he has a key to mine for when he petsits (I had frozen pipes, and my grandma next door had no water at all due to burst pipes).
> 
> He saw zero reason why I wouldn't go use D's shower.
> 
> ...


You know it's not just a lack of trust but also discomfort. Like someone's wife being close friends, alone in the house, with someone that she had sex with multiple times. Also, your ex has probably thought about having sex with you while you two are together. And you think that it's insecure to not like that? ok...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Pollo said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You know it's not just a lack of trust but also discomfort. Like someone's wife being close friends, alone in the house, with someone that she had sex with multiple times. Also, your ex has probably thought about having sex with you while you two are together. And you think that it's insecure to not like that? ok...


I would not choose a man for a husband who was that insecure. We have as mutual friends people we have previously slept with. We chose each other and continue to choose each other. But that's me.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Pollo said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You know it's not just a lack of trust but also discomfort. Like someone's wife being close friends, alone in the house, with someone that she had sex with multiple times.* Also, your ex has probably thought about having sex with you while you two are together. And you think that it's insecure to not like that? ok...*


One of the big differences that I finally identified between men and women is that

1. we women are verbal and therefore we can form a "(social) contract" on the basis of the words in an agreement. That meant to me that we, I and my guy friend, could verbally agree to being just friends, and then we could do whatever we wanted with one another. Hang out, party, meet friends together, take trips together (but sleep in separate beds, of course) talk about dating prospects. This was in my 20s.

But now I understand that 

2. men form a "(social) contract" on the basis of behavior and habit. that is, if you act like a girlfriend, then you are his girlfriend. Acting like a girlfriend can mean hanging out, partying, meeting friends together, taking trips together......... after all that, despite what they have verbally agreed to, they are looking for the sex and the exclusivity. .......... Despite what they have verbally agreed to.

I am very mindful of that now. I do think that during my first year of dating my husband, that had he had more contact with his "just a friend ex" he may have had that meltdown with her.

During the first 3 months that we were (supposed to be) dating, I know now that he had closed 2 bar tabs for her and her friends in 2 weeks. that second time, he went in for a kiss, and when I asked him about in an unguarded moment (I had seen reference to that "pity" kiss in e-mails), he admitted to me that he meant it to be passionate. 

that says to me, that after performing the duties of a boyfriend to this woman, he wanted her to treat him like a boyfriend. She had always told him that she was still looking. And by that time, she had told him about another guy that she was sleeping with.

These days, I accept that men are different from women. I surround myself with women friends and remain arms length friendly with men.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I spent several hours yesterday playing Cards Against Humanity with a couple very good OSF friends. There were more references to female body parts in the game than in a med school ObGyn rotation  not to mention stuff I had to look up on Urban Dictionary for an explanation... Nothing to it.

One of the two (single, my age group) is being considered for nomination to SO in a couple years . Nearly tied her in the Cards game, can't let it go to waste.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I took a good (platonic) OSF to a movie and dinner yesterday. At the theatre we ran into my wife's and my best friends. I walked over and introduced my friend to them. No biggie. My wife and I will be having dinner with them Friday, so the teasing and tales will be told. We had this friend over for the day a few weeks back, so she is a mutual friend. I have other OSF friends that they've met, too, that we've brought to their house for parties, etc.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I asked my husband how he feels about my having OSFs. He just looked at me like I was nuts. I asked him how he felt about my going to lunch with a male work friend. He asked me if he knew about that? I said yes. He said it obviously did not make a huge impression. My son, who was present for the conversation, asked why not just love your spouse?


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Some people can do it. Some people can't.

It works in some relationships just fine. 

It also DOESNT work in other relationships that are had by perfectly mature individuals.

Working on the root issue in a marriage is very important. But there will always be issues to deal with. Once you are married, it is my opinion that one-on-one time with OSFs needs to end. You can still be friends - just do things as couples, groups, etc. 

This topic has been discussed on TAM for years. There are very compelling arguments and examples of situations where the OSF thing burned the other spouse. 

More specifically, any OSFs where there is any physical attraction absolutely need to go once one gets married. They won't admit it, but when attraction is there, there is ALWAYS a hidden desire there. It may never blossom, or it may suddenly hit 20 years into the friendship when the marriage is at a vulnerable point. 

I speak from experience.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would not choose a man for a husband who was that insecure.


Some people cause the insecurity though. You've stayed faithful, so you haven't given any reason for your husband to distrust you.

OSFs are okay until they aren't. That's really the rub.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Too bad Machiavelli is banned. He'd have a field day with this. And I'd be on his side.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Some people can do it. Some people can't.
> 
> It works in some relationships just fine.
> 
> ...


In my cae, I found text messages in which she advised him to dump me. She asked about our sex life. He had told her that he advised me to get a mammogram so in later texts she compared the state of her health to mine by saying @well, at least it's not cancer."

The main take away here is that no one should feel intimidated to review an OSF that looks dodgy. Women like to befriend men for the attention, the boyfriend perks like getting dinners and bar tabs covered and just for the whole in your face, I know your partner better than you do routine.

Men, I guess, befriend a woman for one or both of the following: 1) because they secretly hope to convince her to go with him or 2) he likes the in your face I know your partner better than you do routine as well.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> More specifically, any OSFs where there is any physical attraction absolutely need to go once one gets married. They won't admit it, but when attraction is there, there is ALWAYS a hidden desire there. It may never blossom, or it may suddenly hit 20 years into the friendship when the marriage is at a vulnerable point.
> 
> I speak from experience.


IMO, it's not worth worrying about. If your spouse is trustworthy, then there won't be problems, and if they're not, they will find someone - OSF or someone else entirely. Many people have some attraction for an OS friend, but never act on it because they have ethics and boundaries. If your spouse lacks those, they will find an affair partner elsewhere if they want one.

By your logic of not having any OSF because they could potentially have an affair, you should refuse to let your spouse drive because they could potentially be killed in an accident. It might even be their fault. However, they may also go 20 years or a lifetime with no traffic-related incidents.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> Some people cause the insecurity though. You've stayed faithful, so you haven't given any reason for your husband to distrust you.
> 
> OSFs are okay until they aren't. That's really the rub.


If someone is cheating, OSFs are not the problem. The marriage is the problem. A hefty does of lack of character and integrity are the problem. Cheat avoidance through micromanaging whom you hang a distraction from these problems.


----------



## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

I don't know how many times a male "Buddy" ended up eventually expressing his interest in something more. I've had to distance myself quite a few times.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> In my cae, I found text messages in which she advised him to dump me. She asked about our sex life. He had told her that he advised me to get a mammogram so in later texts she compared the state of her health to mine by saying @well, at least it's not cancer."
> 
> *The main take away here is that no one should feel intimidated to review an OSF that looks dodgy.* Women like to befriend men for the attention, the boyfriend perks like getting dinners and bar tabs covered and just for the whole in your face, I know your partner better than you do routine.


Yup. No one should feel intimidated to review an OSF that looks (or feels) dodgy. Maybe no one disagrees with this statement.

One problem I see though is that some who navigate OSF with grace (gracers) sound very condescending about it to those who have not or those who have been bitten (warners). 

There are no bad guys in this thread but there are bad messages. I agree with NextTimeAround. No one should be labelled insecure or weak or naive or cake eating based solely on their OSF belief. One size does not fit all and no one has to feel judged.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

There used to be a poster who had this in the signature. It's quite wise.

" If a GNO, or alcohol, or an attractive coworker, or a past flame on FB were all that were needed for someone to cheat, then I think that person had that defect in their integrity all along. All they ever lacked was the opportunity to act on their lack of integrity and the circumstances required to rationalize it to themselves."


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> In my cae, I found text messages in which she advised him to dump me. She asked about our sex life. He had told her that he advised me to get a mammogram so in later texts she compared the state of her health to mine by saying @well, at least it's not cancer."
> 
> The main take away here is that no one should feel intimidated to review an OSF that looks dodgy. Women like to befriend men for the attention, the boyfriend perks like getting dinners and bar tabs covered and just for the whole in your face, I know your partner better than you do routine.
> 
> Men, I guess, befriend a woman for one or both of the following: 1) because they secretly hope to convince her to go with him or 2) he likes the in your face I know your partner better than you do routine as well.


You're applying your situation to all situations. Your situation is yours and yours alone. 

If I were going to the bar and drinking with D, yeah I can see some issue there. Or if I walked around in skimpy clothes, or acted in any way flirty, or refused to text or take calls from my husband while D was around, or any number of sketchy/inappropriate things. 

If I were to tell my other friends (almost all of which have been friends with D for as long as I have) and my family that I couldn't spend time with D anymore because it's inappropriate based on what some people online said, they'd tell me I was an idiot. He's been considered part of my family for over 14 years, just as my female BFF has. He's not going anywhere, nor should he be expected to. 

I sent my husband a link to this discussion and he replied with, "That's a whole lot of crazy people."


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

My wife had an OSF for the first 16 years of our marriage. Someone she knew a few years before I met her.

I looked the other way while they got together 2-3 times a year, for the entire day each time. I trusted them both. My wife told me he was not her type (he is very short), and would never consider him boyfriend material. He and I became friends too.

But there was always a little something that bothered me. I let it go. Chalked it up to insecurity.

Well, eventually, she grew more and more emotionally attached to him, and when things weren't going well with us, she latched on to him, emailing him about how she dreamed about him every day.

Then, later, in the aftermath of her betrayal, she confessed she always found him attractive. And I found emails of him confessing his love for her, telling her how beautiful she is.

So, yeah, I'm not real big on OSF friends.

It's playing with fire, IMO.

I know others have survived and thrived in marriages with OSFs on both sides and it's been fine. I know others that were burned like me. I choose not to play that game or take chances. I don't befriend women and go on lunch dates with them.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> Same with OSF. Some people can handle it. Some can't. Don't assume that just because it can't work in your marriage with your spouse that it's the same for all other marriages.


That's why this topic never ceases to amaze and baffle me. It's not that some people chose not to allow OSF in their marriage; that's understandable. It's the amount of people who are vehement that their boundaries need be universal boundaries. It's bizarre. It's like an insulin dependant diabetic screaming that nobody should eat chocolate cake without taking the proper dosage of insulin. 



Coffee Amore said:


> I showed him some of the responses in this thread. He laughed and shook his head at some of the things said here. We've been together over 20 years.


My wife and I are coming up on 15 years together. I use to read her TAM responses, and to similar reaction. After awhile I stopped. I've found that the very few times I've brought up the popular TAM topics of contention to people in my "real" world, the reaction was shock, awe, disbelief and hearty laughter.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> In my cae, I found text messages in which she advised him to dump me. She asked about our sex life. He had told her that he advised me to get a mammogram so in later texts she compared the state of her health to mine by saying @well, at least it's not cancer."



That was a problem with your man. His relationship with his "friend" was inappropriate.

It has nothing to do with ALL women being crappy friends. I personally would never keep a friend, regardless of sex, around who disrespected my spouse that way.



NextTimeAround said:


> Women like to befriend men for the attention, the boyfriend perks like getting dinners and bar tabs covered and just for the whole in your face, I know your partner better than you do routine.


Again, that's your man. I don't pay for dinner and close bar tabs for my female friends. And not a damn woman in my life would be insane enough to ever suggest or imply that they know me better than my partner, not one who expects to stick around. I had that happen once and the woman got cut within an hour of her inappropriate comment. 



NextTimeAround said:


> Men, I guess, befriend a woman for one or both of the following: 1) because they secretly hope to convince her to go with him or 2) he likes the in your face I know your partner better than you do routine as well.


Or 3) He thinks the woman is an awesome human being whose company he enjoys because she's an awesome human being, not a walking vagina waiting to be potentially pierced at every second.

You really should cease speaking for the motives of all men.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I have female friends. My wife has male friends. We all get together socially in various combinations. No problems.


----------



## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

I do not think it's a good idea at all. I try to be realistic as much as I can. I know we live in a very PC world where everyone wants to say the "right" things or be thought of as very open minded...in reality men and women are different and human nature is what is is. I think having couple friends is great and healthy, otherwise, best to stick with your own gender to pal around with. Having said that, there are circumstances where I guess it's OK. For example, if there is a massive physical attraction difference. In the end though, you have to trust your partner. I just think it's stupid to put yourself in potentially bad situations. I also think it's disrespectful to my partner. If I need a social hookup, I got plenty of guy friends.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Observer said:


> I do not think it's a good idea at all. I try to be realistic as much as I can. I know we live in a very PC world where everyone wants to say the "right" things or be thought of as very open minded...in reality men and women are different and human nature is what is is. I think having couple friends is great and healthy, otherwise, best to stick with your own gender to pal around with. Having said that, there are circumstances where I guess it's OK. For example, if there is a massive physical attraction difference. In the end though, you have to trust your partner. I just think it's stupid to put yourself in potentially bad situations. I also think it's disrespectful to my partner. If I need a social hookup, I got plenty of guy friends.


Another take on it.

If your spouse has a problem with one of your OSFs, and wants you to end the friendship because they have a bad feeling about it, do you honor your spouse's wish and cut the OSF off?

If my wife asked me to do this, I absolutely would. 

The gut is a powerful thing.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is always a bit baffling to me when people seek to control who their spouses are hanging with, an external effort to stop cheating, but choose not to deal with the root issue, that not 100% perfect marriage.


LOL... seriously? What marriage is "100% perfect"?

And, just so we're clear... did you mean to say (or imply, rather) "prevent" instead of "stop"? After all, preventing adultery and putting a stop to ongoing adultery are two completely different things.

And please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you and your husband are in an open marriage, correct? Married But Happy... you as well, correct?

Don't get me wrong... I'm not looking to "call you out" or anything, but it's probably at least somewhat germane to the conversation.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

vms said:


> *Find me a female who* is into video games, Rooster Teeth podcast, DIY/home improvement, and comics, and *who isn't into spending all f-ing day shopping or getting nails done or b*tching about their job/spouse and/or who isn't defined by their role as a mother*, and maybe I'd have the same friendship I have with my male BFF.


I know if I described women in these glowing terms, the sisterhood would be all over my comments like a rash. 

I'm also suspicious of people who can't get on with their own gender.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

azteca1986 said:


> I know if I described women in these glowing terms, the sisterhood would be all over my comments like a rash.
> 
> I'm also suspicious of people who can't get on with their own gender.


So you're suspicious of women who fall more towards the masculine side of things?

How about butch women? Are they suspicious? How about, oh, Danica Patrick? Do you think a female racecar driver is suspicious? I'm sure she spends the majority of her time with men.

I use to race. I was in a large car club, the first female member they ever had (my OSF BFF was also a member, it was he who introduced me to the club, and yeah, I'm still friends with a lot of the male members from it). My uncle owned the dragstrip here. I use to do the work on my car, myself. I come from a family of racers and mechanics. I like guns, fishing, camping, ATV riding, Xbox, and fart jokes, and then there's all the reptiles and invertebrates I keep and breed. Do I sound like someone most women have much in common with? 

It's not a matter of not liking my own gender. It's a matter of not having interests most of my gender can relate to.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... seriously? What marriage is "100% perfect"?
> 
> And, just so we're clear... did you mean to say (or imply, rather) "prevent" instead of "stop"? After all, preventing adultery and putting a stop to ongoing adultery are two completely different things.


I guess prevent, sure. We can word quibble. Or not. 

You see so much talk around this board about cheating prevention in the form of partner control. It just seems dumb. Marry someone with character and integrity. Marry someone who loves you, who does not ever want to hurt you. Foster that love and trust. Then you don't have to worry about friends, VARs, cheating.



> And please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you and your husband are in an open marriage, correct?


Most absolutely not. Never have been. We are in a poly-faithful quad. Even they don't care that we still hang with people we used to swing with. Because they trust us, know we love than and would not want to hurt them.

And it has next to nothing to do with sex. I clearly don't value sexual exclusivity. It is about trust, honesty and caring for your partner's feelings. I would divorce DH in a red hot minute if he cheated on me. He would not WANT to. A little bit of bootie and lying about it in exchange for completely ruining my trust? That's a lose proposition for him. Married and happy for the rest of his life with someone who is crazy about him? Or a little fresh? That is a pretty easy decision for him.



> Married But Happy... you as well, correct?
> 
> Don't get me wrong... I'm not looking to "call you out" or anything, but it's probably at least somewhat germane to the conversation.


Call me out on stuff that I have readily admitted? Nah, you're good. But it does not seem germane to the conversation to me.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

vms said:


> So you're suspicious of women who fall more towards the masculine side of things?
> 
> How about butch women?
> *What do you mean by butch women. A lot of butch women are lesbians.... the ultimate expression of love for your own sex / gender.*
> ...


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

> People do relate to others on shared values, not just shared activities.


Shared values? Okay. I'm openly atheist and very liberal. I live in an extremely conservative area (as in, a lingerie store is not even allowed to be in this city, there's a law against that type of establishment). 

You actually have to have something to talk about with someone to be friends, otherwise going to dinner together would be pretty boring. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm a pretty vocal person. I like to talk. I like to share ideas and talk about common *interests*. That's why I'm friends with the friends I have. They don't all have the same beliefs I do, but that's fine, because our interests overlap enough to make a friendship rewarding for us.



> That was your hobby. You still had day job.


My day job back then was working at the local newspaper, where I was the only female aside from the very butch (but not gay) sports editor. I don't know what my job would have to do with who I chose as a friend though, unless you assume I make friends at work. I don't. I keep work and personal life completely separate. Very rarely have I fraternized with coworkers outside of work functions.

I managed a construction company at my last job. I was the only woman in the company. I've also worked for trucking companies where I would go my entire shift without seeing another woman, and if I did? She was a truck driver. 



> What do you mean by butch women. A lot of butch women are lesbians.... the ultimate expression of love for your own sex / gender.


Butch as in masculine. I don't even know what you're getting at here though. Being a lesbian doesn't make someone less likely to cheat. It doesn't make them value their own gender more. Does a heterosexual male value his male friends less, and his female friends more? Because if gay = more value for your own gender, then not gay = more value for opposite gender, which would go against the side you're taking in all this.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

vms said:


> So you're suspicious of women who fall more towards the masculine side of things?


Didn't say that, did I? If a man expressed your views about the 'majority' of women, I wouldn't associate with them.



> I use to race. I was in a large car club, the first female member they ever had (my OSF BFF was also a member, it was he who introduced me to the club, and yeah, I'm still friends with a lot of the male members from it). My uncle owned the dragstrip here. I use to do the work on my car, myself. I come from a family of racers and mechanics. I like guns, fishing, camping, ATV riding, Xbox, and fart jokes, and then there's all the reptiles and invertebrates I keep and breed. Do I sound like someone most women have much in common with?


I get it. You just wanna be one of the boys. But never can be. Sounds like it bugs ya.


----------



## Pinche Culero (Jan 5, 2015)

A friendship of any kind, can still help kill a marriage if it starts consuming time away from each other til they are nothing more than roommates with only kids and a mortgage as their common denominator.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> You see so much talk around this board about cheating prevention in the form of partner control. It just seems dumb.


The pervasiveness of that kind of talk around here is a sure symptom of a board filled with people in dysfunctioning marriages. A lot of people on this board have adapted to "trust but verify" versions of marriages, where trust has been challenged, if not outright lost.

And that's the rub, I simply wouldn't be, or stay, married to a woman I could not completely trust. I get that some are in very tough situations, often times making the best out of very non ideal conditions in order to preserve family units with kids, or whatever other reasons. Still others have been burned in previous relationships and work overtime to prevent repeat history. But it just couldn't be me. I have no desire to keep my spouse on a short leash, keeping ever vigilant that she don't slip onto some strange. If a male "friend" was to find himself sexually entangled with my wife has he not, on some level, done me a favor by helping expose the kind of person I'm really married to?


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

jaquen said:


> The pervasiveness of that kind of talk around here is a sure symptom of a board filled with people in dysfunctioning marriages. A lot of people on this board have adapted to "trust but verify" versions of marriages, where trust has been challenged, if not outright lost.
> 
> And that's the rub, I simply wouldn't be, or stay, married to a woman I could not completely trust. I get that some are in very tough situations, often times making the best out of very non ideal conditions in order to preserve family units with kids, or whatever other reasons. Still others have been burned in previous relationships and work overtime to prevent repeat history. But it just couldn't be me. I have no desire to keep my spouse on a short leash, keeping ever vigilant that she don't slip onto some strange. If a male "friend" was to find himself sexually entangled with my wife has he not, on some level, done me a favor by helping expose the kind of person I'm really married to?


I'm in a very stable marriage where there has been no betrayals of any kind. Granted, in my first marriage my wife did cheat but I've never had reason to doubt my current wife. Nevertheless we both agreed that osf are probably not a good idea unless they are friends of both of us. She does not socialize with any men unless I am present and I do not socialize with any women without my wife there. Now, I don't believe my wife would cheat on me and she trusts me implicitly as well. But there is a chance that hard feelings could result from that type of situation. We both feel that it's just an unnecessary risk and we value our relationship too much to jeopardize it. Relationships are difficult enough without inviting problems.


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Pinche Culero said:


> A friendship of any kind, can still help kill a marriage if it starts consuming time away from each other til they are nothing more than roommates with only kids and a mortgage as their common denominator.


I agree

Marriage is my priority, kids are #2, Family #3.....that leaves me with no time for "friendships".

Ok ok, very LITTLE time for friendships. Based on my time availability, I can't really be a good friend to anyone, so I don't expect it back.

Sure I hang out with people here and there, but I'm not sure I would call these people my friends. Co Workers/Acquaintance perhaps.

But to me, friend is a strong word that's only reserved for handful or less people that you might meet in your lifetime.

I'm happy to say that my wife is my best friend and that's about all I really want or need. 

As I matured I noticed that I like people in small doses, for small amount of time. If I have 1 special person in my life, that's about all I need (my wife meets that requirement nicely).


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

DoF said:


> I agree
> 
> Marriage is my priority, kids are #2, Family #3.....that leaves me with no time for "friendships".
> 
> ...


Hey Dof welcome back

I think we found some common ground on this. I also only have a few friends, people I can actually rely on in my life as well. Women who have claimed to love me move along when something else better comes along has been my experience while my friends have remained consistent. Most of my friends can be traced back to when I met them from high school. So thier presence in my life are non negotiable and I wouldn't give up a female friend I have had for 20 years just for a woman I meet tomorrow. 

I would love to find one woman who was my best friend in all areas but sadly never have. Even if I did I wouldn't abandon the years of friendship and commitment my other friends gave me. As I have matured I have become more like you and enjoy people only in small doses. I think much of that is my job and the nonsense I see day in and out. But because of this my friendships from back then are even more important to me. They keep me grounded and remind me of my past.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess prevent, sure. We can word quibble. Or not.


Honestly, that wasn't my intent at all. For reals. I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant.



NobodySpecial said:


> You see so much talk around this board about cheating prevention in the form of partner control. It just seems dumb.


Look, I can't control my spouse any more than anyone else can control his or her spouse. And, actually, that works out great, because I have absolutely zero desire to control her. _What I want is for her to *control herself*._

And if she can't do that, we're done. Simple as that. She's f*cked up before, I've forgiven her for it, and we've been working through it for the past 2 1/2 years. I'm not so naive so say that we've reconcil_ed_, but things are generally pretty well... and they're definitely leaps and bound better than before.

Either way, the controlling card is waaaaay overused these days. A guy finds his wife sexting another guy after a few nights of successive out-until-3 am GNOs, and all of a sudden he's "being controlling" because he wants her to knock off the bullsh*t? A young mother wants her husband to not stay out drinking w/ his buddies at bars and strip joints every weekend, and she's "being controlling" for wanting him to behave like a responsible husband and father? F*ck that noise.

The difference, obviously, is in having clear boundaries, and then being prepared to enact appropriate consequences once a boundary is broken.



NobodySpecial said:


> Marry someone with character and integrity. Marry someone who loves you, who does not ever want to hurt you. Foster that love and trust. Then you don't have to worry about friends, VARs, cheating.


/sigh If only it were that easy...

Even people w/ character and integrity -- that love, cherish, and have no desire to hurt their spouses -- are prone to poor judgement. If that weren't true, then the only people cheating would be absolute cads and total slores, and we all know that's just not true.

And it's not like anyone that ever used a keylogger, VAR, text recovery app, etc really enjoyed doing it. The people that do it do so because their trust has been broken (or, at the very least, they suspect that it has been) by the people that they should have been able to trust above all others, and they're either looking to find out "how deep the rabbit hole goes", or they're attempting to ascertain whether or not a trust that _has been broken_ can be rebuilt.



NobodySpecial said:


> Most absolutely not. Never have been. We are in a poly-faithful quad. Even they don't care that we still hang with people we used to swing with. Because they trust us, know we love than and would not want to hurt them.


Ah. My mistake. Apologies. And, while I understand (I _think_) the distinction between an open marriage, swinging, and polyamory, to most people it all comes down to nothing more than "not" monogamy.



NobodySpecial said:


> And it has next to nothing to do with sex. I clearly don't value sexual exclusivity. It is about trust, honesty and caring for your partner's feelings. I would divorce DH in a red hot minute if he cheated on me. He would not WANT to. A little bit of bootie and lying about it in exchange for completely ruining my trust? That's a lose proposition for him. Married and happy for the rest of his life with someone who is crazy about him? Or a little fresh? That is a pretty easy decision for him.


And you'd think that it'd be a pretty easy decision for a LOT of wayward spouses. But it isn't.



NobodySpecial said:


> Call me out on stuff that I have readily admitted? Nah, you're good. But it does not seem germane to the conversation to me.


But it is. Not to you, perhaps, but to those of us that have vowed to "forsake all others", it's damn important, and we rightfully expect the same level of commitment from our spouses... _who have vowed to do the same._


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Hey Dof welcome back
> 
> I think we found some common ground on this. I also only have a few friends, people I can actually rely on in my life as well. Women who have claimed to love me move along when something else better comes along has been my experience while my friends have remained consistent. Most of my friends can be traced back to when I met them from high school. So thier presence in my life are non negotiable and I wouldn't give up a female friend I have had for 20 years just for a woman I meet tomorrow.
> 
> I would love to find one woman who was my best friend in all areas but sadly never have. Even if I did I wouldn't abandon the years of friendship and commitment my other friends gave me. As I have matured I have become more like you and enjoy people only in small doses. I think much of that is my job and the nonsense I see day in and out. But because of this my friendships from back then are even more important to me. They keep me grounded and remind me of my past.


Sounds great, completely understandable. I probably wouldn't do it differently in your shoes.

And yes, I'm quite thankful and grateful to have a wife that's a best friend. I know that's not easy to find out there.

But on the downside, none of my high school friends were ever worth keeping or good friends to begin with. So I was forced to filter them out as I matured and realized the damage and drama they caused in my life.

I was an immigrant, so I wasn't really in position to pick friends......and just accepted ones that fell into my lap (which wasn't smart).

Young and stupid, what can I say.

But in general, I'm not really sure if I care for any more friendships that I currently have (even with good people/friends). I have quite few potential good friends on the horizon but I'm a bit skeptical about perusing friendships (mostly due to lack of time I have).

Funny, when I was in my teens/20s...stupid me thought that more friends is better. Took me WAY too long to figure out that 
a) quality over quantity
b) I don't really enjoy/like large groups of friends/people (small doses/1 vs many). I don't want to come of anti social, I don't mind hanging out in large groups and I fit in quite well actually......I just prefer more personal/one on one relationship vs whole bunch of people. And once I have 1 special person/friend in my life......I don't really care for anyone else (that's really all I want/need).

:scratchhead:


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
To me it is more important that my wife not want to cheat than that she doesn't cheat. 

If I have to be concerned that she is going to fall for a coworker and I have to take steps to keep them apart, then the damage is already done.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> To me it is more important that my wife not want to cheat than that she doesn't cheat.
> 
> If I have to be concerned that she is going to fall for a coworker and I have to take steps to keep them apart, then the damage is already done.


My concern wouldn't be that she is looking to cheat or even at risk. It is the unintended consequences of too much time with someone else. You can't predict how that will impact your relationship, until it is too late. Hence tight boundaries.

I think that everyone is subject to this temptation, if there are not good boundaries.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> My concern wouldn't be that she is looking to cheat or even at risk. It is the unintended consequences of too much time with someone else. You can't predict how that will impact your relationship, until it is too late. Hence tight boundaries.
> 
> I think that everyone is subject to this temptation, if there are not good boundaries.


Not only that. It's also that many people just simply do not play fair.

In my first marriage, I had trouble when making friends with other women as I had joined my husband in a new country. Apparently, some women are interested in using the wives as conduits to men, sometimes for career networking. 

As my husband was a management consultant at the time, it's not impossible that some people who never turn off their efforts to network professionally, would decide that there's nothing wrong with focusing their efforts on the person who may be able to help them with their next job or project.

For situations like that, I would just like for these people to go away LONG before they have wasted my time. This is why boundaries are good. A woman too interested in calling my husband, monopolising his time at parties, not wanting to make plans with me unless my husband is part of the package, in that case, I would rather that they get frustrated by the boundaries and just move on before they have wasted my time. Even with friends, there is an investment of emotions and other intangibles.

This one of the many reasons why couples observe these sorts of boundaries.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, that wasn't my intent at all. For reals. I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome post, Gus. Agree with it all.

I get irritated when people say things like, "Hey, well then don't be with a person like that."

Well, look, when we marry, we don't know EVERYTHING about what they are capable of. This is why infidelity is so shocking and damaging to the psyche. Also, people change. The person you married 15-20 years ago isn't the same person she/he is now.

And making the decision to extract oneself from a marriage of decent length, when your entire lives are intertwined, is an enormous life event. Many want to work it out, or at least give it full effort first. And that includes dealing with infidelity/OSFs/etc.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jaquen said:


> The pervasiveness of that kind of talk around here is a sure symptom of a board filled with people in dysfunctioning marriages. A lot of people on this board have adapted to "trust but verify" versions of marriages, where trust has been challenged, if not outright lost.
> 
> And that's the rub, I simply wouldn't be, or stay, married to a woman I could not completely trust.


Yup.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, that wasn't my intent at all. For reals. I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant.


I was just goofing with you.




> /sigh If only it were that easy...
> 
> Even people w/ character and integrity -- that love, cherish, and have no desire to hurt their spouses -- are prone to poor judgement. If that weren't true, then the only people cheating would be absolute cads and total slores, and we all know that's just not true.


Sorry but in my book character and integrity are not something you carry around with you in your fuzzy little heart. They are defined by your actions. People know cheating is wrong. Cheating is not "poor judgement". Ooops I let his **** fall into me while walking on the slippery part of the driveway. 

Cheating and lying in a marriage are actions that, in my book *define* lack of character and integrity.



> Ah. My mistake. Apologies. And, while I understand (I _think_) the distinction between an open marriage, swinging, and polyamory, to most people it all comes down to nothing more than "not" monogamy.


That is like saying that "to most people" software engineering, QA and systems engineering are all the same thing so that makes it so. It doesn't. The master term you are looking for is responsible non-monogamy (vs the lying, cheating kind we've been discussing).



> And you'd think that it'd be a pretty easy decision for a LOT of wayward spouses. But it isn't.
> 
> But it is. Not to you, perhaps, but to those of us that have vowed to "forsake all others", it's damn important, and we rightfully expect the same level of commitment from our spouses... _who have vowed to do the same._


Hey we all have different deal breakers. I can tell you that no matter what, that level of deceit is a deal breaker for me. And no matter what, I would be out that door in a red hot minute. But then it goes back to the character and integrity thing. You forgive your spouse for things like forgetting the groceries, fibbing about whether you smoked in college, that you forgot to pay the over due bill and now you owe another late charge. Why would anyone want to stay with a cheater?

Let's not even get into the great mystery of the HOW cheating ever even comes about. I would know within one look at his face. 

I think the issue is not what happens IN marriage but what happens before. People fall in nub when in reality they are just experiencing new relationship energy. Or Mr Nice Guy meets wants a woman and finds one who wants a provider. They want an institution. Well I guess you get the marriage you set out for. The get married because maybe it is the thing to do. Find a willing partner and get married. How can THAT end badly? How low is that bar?

How many people TALK about what character and integrity look like before marriage? (Let's be real here. How many people talk about character and integrity at all? And mean it like it is important?)

To be fair, it is really not people's fault. Not many people are raised with character and integrity in their households of origins. Adequate behavior, yes. But show of hands. How many of you were raised by people who took charity seriously on a regular basis? Not just donating to charity and taking the tax break but helping people in need in their community? Caring for their elderly family? How many families of origin TALKED about 

I go over to friends' houses for get togethers. They spend their time on their cell phones. And when they do talk, they complain about some perceived slight or the ****ty Christmas gift aunt Sally gave them. When elderly aunt Sally breaks her hip, they don't think gee I think I will bring some soup and meals for her freezer to help her out and better clear my calendar for her appointments. They think what a burden it is to get her to her doctor visits. Who, growing up would think that is anything but perfectly normal. But it does not strike me as ideal family life.

I was lucky as was my husband. As are we now together. We were raised by parents who did do these things. In addition they modeled where the bar can (that bar I mentioned above), and my opinion, should go in this thing called marriage. Every time I hear about staying, I think god how sad. If marriage means a vow and a certificate to you, I think that is just really sad. DH and I got to see where the bar COULD be. True life partners. Complete honesty in the knowledge that who you really are will never be rejected. Knowing that when you walk in the door at the end of the day, you won't just be welcomed, you will be cherished. Which goes back to the knowing thing. How I would know with one look on his face if real, honest to goodness betrayal had happened with one look at his face.

Yah I know I sound awfully pretentious and judgmental. That is not really my point, though no one will believe me. My point is that people cannot have really awesome marriages if they don't ask themselves what IS marriage to me? What CAN marriage be for me? And be ready to accept that maybe being alone is better than just showing up in a tux or a dress, saying some words and then staying.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was just goofing with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is, hands down, one of the best posts I've ever read on this, or any, board about marriage.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I want to say one more thing. The reason I make a distinction between the various ways to do responsible non-monogamy is that they are not of equal risk to marriage, with open marriage being the worst. Open marriage and often straight polyamory a singular activity. Swinging and poly-fi (the sub group much denied as stupid by other polyamorists) are couple activities. Open marriages are the least likely to be RESPONSIBLE non-monogamy because it is often used as an excuse to dodge a crappy marriage without leaving it.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jaquen said:


> This is, hands down, one of the best posts I've ever read on this, or any, board about marriage.


Despite being FULL of errors.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> This is, hands down, one of the best posts I've ever read on this, or any, board about marriage.


You are entitled to your very own opinion.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Sigh. Another OSF thread with battle lines and postured stances? It's not an indictment of someone with OSFs because someone else doesn't like the concept. It's equally not an indictment of those who hate the idea when someone else thinks it's wonderful and acceptable.

For that matter, define friend. I have a feeling that many against OSF are talking about besties and many for OSF are talking something less than that. In other words, we're arguing different points to a degree. 

Here's one thing I know for certain that relates to something Gus pointed out about NS. Anyone open to sharing a partner sexually has a vastly different point of view than most of the "no OSF" crowd. Sharing a partner just doesn't compute to us so yes it is very germane if you do or have. It clearly means sex is looked at differently and it's almost a use case for germane to topic.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Within the course of marriage, the only female friends that I ever had were either lifelong or already established good friends of my rich, skanky XW.

Wife #1 only had one female friend period! And as a rule, no other female , except for her best friend, who lived clear across the country, really liked her!

It sure didn't take me long to follow suit!*


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Here's one thing I know for certain that relates to something Gus pointed out about NS. Anyone open to sharing a partner sexually has a vastly different point of view than most of the "no OSF" crowd. Sharing a partner just doesn't compute to us so yes it is very germane if you do or have. It clearly means sex is looked at differently and it's almost a use case for germane to topic.


That's very true. In most of these forums, I speak based on experiences from my first, completely monogamous marriage of 24 years. That's because my later experiences don't usually apply to the majority of people and issues discussed here - I try to only include those when relevant.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> You are entitled to your very own opinion.



I'm aware of that, thanks.

But what was the point of quoting my post, addressed to another poser, that has nothing to do with you, to state this?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Sigh. Another OSF thread with battle lines and postured stances? It's not an indictment of someone with OSFs because someone else doesn't like the concept. It's equally not an indictment of those who hate the idea when someone else thinks it's wonderful and acceptable.


Unless there is someone saying something like if you feel differently than you are .... insert invective here... then there is no indictment. Just differing opinion. If you were to feel indicted by, for example, my post, then that is on you. Opinions were asked for. I shared mine. If yours are different, then good on you!



> For that matter, define friend. I have a feeling that many against OSF are talking about besties and many for OSF are talking something less than that. In other words, we're arguing different points to a degree.


That is true. 


> Here's one thing I know for certain that relates to something Gus pointed out about NS. Anyone open to sharing a partner sexually has a vastly different point of view than most of the "no OSF" crowd. Sharing a partner just doesn't compute to us so yes it is very germane if you do or have. It clearly means sex is looked at differently and it's almost a use case for germane to topic.


My PoV is clearly very different than the majority of posters, hell people. Whether strictly monogamous or not, my PoV may be of help. Bearing in mind that I have been married for 20 years and am deliriously happy in my marriage, I might have something useful to say. Bearing in mind that the first 10 years of my marriage were very much monogamous, and I had no concerns with cheating, I may have something useful to say. 

If one is concerned about cheating, my view is look less to policing your partner and more to accepting, cherishing and loving your partner and building a genuinely cheat proof marriage. Talk to your spouse about character and integrity and its importance in the life of your family. Raise the bar on what marriage is and can be, recognizing that you and your partner may be different than on that day oh so long ago when you got dressed up and said I do. Focus less on that day and that promise and what is today. If your value system includes sexual exclusivity, mean it. Own it. That is part of your integrity. And make sure that is part of the discussion with your spouse on character and integrity. 

If there are problems in your marriage that cause concern, fix your marriage. Or recognize that you cannot. It is not other people. It is not the hot dude at work. It is not his or her friends. It's him and her. Period.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Unless there is someone saying something like if you feel differently than I then you are .... insert invective here... then there is no indictment. Just differing opinion. If you were to feel indicted by, for example, my post, then that is on you. Opinions were asked for. I shared mine. If yours are different, then good on you!


Yes that's what I was saying as well. We don't have to take offense or pick sides. There's merit to multiple views based on our personal history, age, group of friends, spouse, etc.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> My PoV is clearly very different than the majority of posters, hell people. Whether strictly monogamous or not, my PoV may be of help. Bearing in mind that I have been married for 20 years and am deliriously happy in my marriage, I might have something useful to say. Bearing in mind that the first 10 years of my marriage were very much monogamous, and I had no concerns with cheating, I may have something useful to say.
> 
> If one is concerned about cheating, my view is look less to policing your partner and more to accepting, cherishing and loving your partner and building a genuinely cheat proof marriage. Talk to your spouse about character and integrity and its importance in the life of your family. Raise the bar on what marriage is and can be, recognizing that you and your partner may be different than on that day oh so long ago when you got dressed up and said I do. Focus less on that day and that promise and what is today. If your value system includes sexual exclusivity, mean it. Own it. That is part of your integrity. And make sure that is part of the discussion with your spouse on character and integrity.
> 
> If there are problems in your marriage that cause concern, fix your marriage. Or recognize that you cannot. It is not other people. It is not the hot dude at work. It is not his or her friends. It's him and her. Period.


When I said your view of sex in general is germane to the topic, I hope you didn't take that to mean anything negative. I just meant we come at this topic from different angles. I agree with everything you said in this post. Expectations shouldn't equate to control. They're almost opposites.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> When I said your view of sex in general is germane to the topic, I hope you didn't take that to mean anything negative. I just meant we come at this topic from different angles. I agree with everything you said in this post. Expectations shouldn't equate to control. They're almost opposites.


Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

What is it about this topic that spurns such heated debate?


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

jaquen said:


> What is it about this topic that spurns such heated debate?


People who can't see past their own fears would be my guess. 

People who have been cheated on are likely to be very way of anyone of the opposite sex spending time with their SO after that, but mistakenly place the onus of improper behavior on the OSF vs their partner, because it's much nicer to think it's someone else's fault if an SO cheats. They were lured in, after all. 

Also, I never understood people who say "I trust you, it's other men/women I don't trust." An SO getting hit on isn't a threat unless the SO is unable to say no in the first place, and there's a high likelihood of SO being the one to INITIATE an EA or PA. I initiated mine. I sought it out, on purpose, because I hated, for good reason, how my (at the time) husband treated me. I can say, with 100% conviction, without his abuse, an affair would have never crossed my mind. I've spent 4 years in an LDR now and it never crossed my mind to cheat. Or even flirt. My OSF would be the LAST person I'd choose, were I to go that route anyway. 

I remember one time about a year after my affair, a man was pursuing me. I kept telling him no. He asked why, didn't I like him? I told him no, that was exactly the problem - I did like him, so he needed to beat it. I wasn't walking that path again (even though my then husband had upped his abuse to include controlling the finances, stalking me, and further isolating me from friends/family). 

So perhaps people who are so opposed to it worry that they aren't the best SOs, or know they aren't, and fear that their SOs will find someone who provides a need not currently filled. 

But someone who is selfish is going to cheat if they want, and they don't need OSF friends to do it. They'll find someone. I'm saying that as a former WW who went out and found someone. Yeah, I was being abused at home at the time, which doesn't make it right but it was a factor in my choice. Other people won't need that as a motivator.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vms, that's a powerful post. Very thought-provoking.


----------



## ConflictedAboutItAll (Jan 11, 2015)

There is potential for trouble. If you marriage is solid, there is most likely not going to be any issues. If there are marital issues, this friend could end up being a go to person, not healthy.

Not always......but it is a great possibility that the friendship could be troublesome.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Also, I never understood people who say "I trust you, it's other men/women I don't trust." An SO getting hit on isn't a threat unless the SO is unable to say no in the first place, and there's a high likelihood of SO being the one to INITIATE an EA or PA.


I agree. And a partner who is trustworthy will behave in a trustworthy way right from the beginning. That means avoiding situations that others might misinterpret.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I agree. And a partner who is trustworthy will behave in a trustworthy way right from the beginning. That means avoiding situations that others might misinterpret.


just my $0.02. There is not that much time for me or my W to spend on friends. Any significant amount of time takes away from the marriage. A few hours a week with an OSF could equal the amount of quality time some couples get. THen you are more 'dating' the OSF than you are your spouse. I think it comes down to time, more than anything else.

Sure an hour or less of month with randon emails, facebooks texts should be OK, but significantly more than that starts to encroach on us time.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> just my $0.02. There is not that much time for me or my W to spend on friends. Any significant amount of time takes away from the marriage. A few hours a week with an OSF could equal the amount of quality time some couples get. THen you are more 'dating' the OSF than you are your spouse. I think it comes down to time, more than anything else.
> 
> Sure an hour or less of month with randon emails, facebooks texts should be OK, but significantly more than that starts to encroach on us time.


These are good points. If quality time together with your spouse is limited, then spending much time with ANY friends may be a problem, regardless of their gender.

In our case, we have huge amounts of quality time together, so we occasionally benefit from time apart - that's when we engage in separate activities and/or separate friends (of whatever gender).


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> Sure an hour or less of month with randon emails, facebooks texts should be OK, but significantly more than that starts to encroach on us time.



Are you talking "an hour or less" with one OSF, or are you suggesting people only spend "an hour or less" with all of their friends collectively, regardless of their sex?


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Are you talking "an hour or less" with one OSF, or are you suggesting people only spend "an hour or less" with all of their friends collectively, regardless of their sex?


this is fiction to sum up what I think:

We probably have 8-16 hours a week of couple time and free time total a piece (probably more, but for sake of argument use that). 

If your W wants to spend 4 hours a week with friends and 2 of those hours are with a OM, the OM is getting 1/4 of your W. So she is at risk of dating someone 1/4 of the time you have to date her.

Yes OW friends could have the same effect, but the risk is less.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> this is fiction to sum up what I think:
> 
> We probably have 8-16 hours a week of couple time and free time total a piece (probably more, but for sake of argument use that).
> 
> ...


Thanks, but that doesn't answer the question I asked.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I find it hard to believe that any marriage is "rock solid" all the time, there are always going to be times when one partner at least temporarily feels some need is unmet -- one spouse has to work late for weeks on end, one spouse is sick, one spouse is pregnant and can't give the same kind of attention she used to to the other, financial troubles cause tension, a move or other major change causes stress, etc. It's at those times that a budding or already existent OS friendship can gradually turn into something more. 

We never had a problem with OS friendships for the first five years or so of our relationship, until, one day, we did. She had an EA. Then a year later, I had an EA. After those experiences we decided that it just didn't work for us to have close opposite sex friends -- we weren't going to cloister each other, it was ok to have work friends or school friends or whatever, but no intimate one-on-one time with opposite sex friends. We have made exceptions for people who were so obviously unattractive or asexual to us that it seemed unfathomable to become anything. I don't think it's really about being "trustworthy," I think it's about human nature, for which an unmet need and intimate contact with another person are a volatile mix. If a need is unmet, you work it out with your partner, and if you can't work it out, you leave. 

Also, appealing opposite sex "friendships" have a tendency to make problems in your relationship seem bigger, in my experience, a grass-is-greener kind of thing.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

John Lee said:


> Also, appealing opposite sex "friendships" have a tendency to make problems in your relationship seem bigger, in my experience, a grass-is-greener kind of thing.


Now THAT is certainly true. 

Of course, comparing your own relationship to that of other couples will do the same thing, or even to the preconceived notions you had of marriage that may not be realistic. We all do this to an extent - some people just don't want to let go of the idea that there's something better, so they can't see the great things they do have.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

One other thing: I think sometimes the "issue" in the marriage that leads to an OSF becoming an EA is actually that spouse's own difficulty committing, rather than the other spouse's treatment of him/her. Agreeing not to have close OSFs is one way to show commitment. I respect that there are people who manage their marriages differently and it works fine for them, but this is what I have learned from my experience.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

John Lee said:


> One other thing: I think sometimes the "issue" in the marriage that leads to an OSF becoming an EA is actually that spouse's own difficulty committing, rather than the other spouse's treatment of him/her. Agreeing not to have close OSFs is one way to show commitment. I respect that there are people who manage their marriages differently and it works fine for them, but this is what I have learned from my experience.


The other possibility is that reasoning can become convoluted. That is, possibly one spouse thinking, "well, if my husband / wife doesn't care that I spend all this time with my bestie (OSF), why should I care." 

and here the estranged spouse just thought he / she was being openminded.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> The other possibility is that reasoning can become convoluted. That is, possibly one spouse thinking, "well, if my husband / wife doesn't care that I spend all this time with my bestie (OSF), why should I care."
> 
> and here the estranged spouse just thought he / she was being openminded.


Or the spouse just didn't want to be labeled controlling.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

bfree said:


> Or the spouse just didn't want to be labeled controlling.


Exactly.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I admit, I haven't read every post, but to the OPs question, I think it depends on how one defines friends. I am acquainted with married women in my life that I call friends.

However, I don't hang out with them, call them at home for chatting, or buy them birthday gifts. I've know people who have opposite sex friends while in a relationship with someone else, and they basically act as though they were dating them, except there is supposedly no intimacy. I've always found those friendships to be a little much.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Thanks, but that doesn't answer the question I asked.


maybe just my reading comprehension, but I guess I don't understand the question then. 

I see spending limited quality time with an OSF is extremely risky. If you spend 1 hour per week with the OSF of quality time and only 4 hours w/your spouse, that is too high a risk of losing intimacy w/spouse and transferring it to the OSF. Granted boundaries help, but I think too many people don't have that good of boundaries.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

ticktock33 said:


> What do you all think about being friends with people of the opposite sex when you're married?
> 
> I think it's OK to be friends with the opposite sex with the other friend is also married. But it's a bit strange if they aren't unless they are gay. Or if the couple is friends with the single person, if it's a group thing. Otherwise I would think it gets tricky, I would feel uncomfortable.


My marriage sucks so I would be pretty lonely without my female friend.

If my marriage were great---even good---I would have no need for a female friend.

hope that helps :smthumbup:


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> My marriage sucks so I would be pretty lonely without my female friend.
> 
> If my marriage were great---even good---I would have no need for a female friend.
> 
> hope that helps :smthumbup:


That's not really the "right" reasons to have an OSF.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

vms said:


> That's not really the "right" reasons to have an OSF.


Who makes the rules on what's "right" ?


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> My marriage sucks so I would be pretty lonely without my female friend.
> 
> If my marriage were great---even good---I would have no need for a female friend.
> 
> hope that helps :smthumbup:


Maybe you should get out of your marriage then. Alternatively, do you ever look in the mirror when you ask yourself why your marriage might "suck"?


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> Who makes the rules on what's "right" ?


You and your wife. 

A friend, opposite sex or not, should complement your life, not fill a large role that would otherwise be filled by your spouse. 

There are things that people need from their spouses, such as:
Intimacy levels and types you can BOTH agree on 
Emotional and physical safety
Conversation without judgement 
A united front on parenting when applicable 

If one of those is missing, the marriage is broken. It's not healthy to the marriage to seek those things outside of it in lieu of working to fix the marriage.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> maybe just my reading comprehension, but I guess I don't understand the question then.
> 
> I see spending limited quality time with an OSF is extremely risky. If you spend 1 hour per week with the OSF of quality time and only 4 hours w/your spouse, that is too high a risk of losing intimacy w/spouse and transferring it to the OSF. Granted boundaries help, but I think too many people don't have that good of boundaries.


But the question I asked you was:

"Are you talking "an hour or less" with one OSF, or are you suggesting people only spend "an hour or less" with all of their friends collectively, regardless of their sex?"

As in are you saying that married people should only spend less than one hour per month with ALL friends total, regardless of sex? Or are you just talking about with each specific friend?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

vms said:


> That's not really the "right" reasons to have an OSF.


This.

I don't have a single woman who is in my life because she's filling a void that my wife is suppose to fill, but doesn't.

All my friends are in my life because I love them, and appreciate them, personally, regardless of sex. If I could honestly say that a woman is in my life only because my wife is lacking, and if my wife wasn't she'd be gone, I'd consider that an emotional affair.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

John Lee said:


> *Maybe you should get out of your marriage then. * Alternatively, do you ever look in the mirror when you ask yourself why your marriage might "suck"?


I'm trying, bro.

No....I already know why it sucks.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

vms said:


> You and your wife.
> 
> A friend, opposite sex or not, should complement your life, not fill a large role that would otherwise be filled by your spouse.
> 
> ...


Excellent.....now if my wife would get on board with these there wouldn't be a problem.

I know the marriage is broken, hence having a female friend who is keeping me from going insane  she's awesome! Too bad she lives 2000 away


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Can you guys like my posts a little more? That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when I see that notification


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cobalt said:


> Can you guys like my posts a little more? That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when I see that notification


Are you serious right now?


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Are you serious right now?


:lol:


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jaquen said:


> But the question I asked you was:
> 
> "Are you talking "an hour or less" with one OSF, or are you suggesting people only spend "an hour or less" with all of their friends collectively, regardless of their sex?"
> 
> As in are you saying that married people should only spend less than one hour per month with ALL friends total, regardless of sex? Or are you just talking about with each specific friend?


basically what I am trying to say is the OSF especially and friends in general, need to occupy less of ones time than their spouses by a wide margin. I think that is where the angst comes in these threads. The pro OSF folk really spend minimal time with the OSF relative to the time they spend with their spouse. The anti OSF camp has either been burned or really doesn't have enough time to support an OSF at all, so they see any time with an OSF as getting intimacy needs outside of mairrage.

Also, for OSF, you need strong and healthy boundaries. My guess is more people than you think struggle with this.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But the question I asked you was: ...


He's not going to answer it :scratchhead: .


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> Also, for OSF, you need strong and healthy boundaries. My guess is more people than you think struggle with this.


At least on TAM.

Since I literally know hundreds of people, of all ages, and across so many divergent backgrounds, and nearly all of them have OSF.

Only online, here on TAM, do I encounter this ban on OSF. Obviously plenty of people don't allow them, but I actually think the people here are more the exception to the rule.


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

jaquen said:


> At least on TAM.
> 
> Since I literally know hundreds of people, of all ages, and across so many divergent backgrounds, and nearly all of them have OSF.


I wonder if this is the reason infidelity is so common of people, of all ages, and across so many divergent backgrounds.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> At least on TAM.
> 
> Since I literally know hundreds of people, of all ages, and across so many divergent backgrounds, and nearly all of them have OSF.
> 
> Only online, here on TAM, do I encounter this ban on OSF. Obviously plenty of people don't allow them, but I actually think the people here are more the exception to the rule.


When I was first having problems with my first husband's OSFs, I asked a couple of female friends whether their husbands had any OSFs, because if yes, then did she manage them. 

All of them told me no, my husband doesn't have any female friends. One friend did admit that she cleaned house of the OSFs during their engagement. ie, getting her fiancé / future husband to call them and telling them that the friendship was over. I thought that was bit much (but kept my opinion to myself)


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> Can you guys like my posts a little more? That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when I see that notification


I'm on mobile and can't " like". So here you go!.....LIKE!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> When I was first having problems with my first husband's OSFs, I asked a couple of female friends whether their husbands had any OSFs, because if yes, then did she manage them.
> 
> All of them told me no, my husband doesn't have any female friends. One friend did admit that she cleaned house of the OSFs during their engagement. ie, getting her fiancé / future husband to call them and telling them that the friendship was over. I thought that was bit much (but kept my opinion to myself)


He actually called his friends and told them that their friendship was over? I agree that was more than a bit much, what a spineless jerk. 

There is only one friendship that he should have terminated.

IMHO of course.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> When I was first having problems with my first husband's OSFs, I asked a couple of female friends whether their husbands had any OSFs, because if yes, then did she manage them.
> 
> All of them told me no, my husband doesn't have any female friends. One friend did admit that she cleaned house of the OSFs during their engagement. ie, getting her fiancé / future husband to call them and telling them that the friendship was over. I thought that was bit much (but kept my opinion to myself)


Maybe she had a little more than friendship going on? 

Does seem a little strange.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Maybe she had a little more than friendship going on?
> 
> Does seem a little strange.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I guess there are some people who insist on having OSFs. and there are some people who insist on not having them.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> I wonder if this is the reason infidelity is so common of people, of all ages, and across so many divergent backgrounds.


Infidelity has always been "so common of people, of all ages, and across so many divergent backgrounds".

Long, long before it was fashionable or expected for men and women to be close friends.


----------



## homerjay (Dec 12, 2014)

My honest belief is youre being too sensitive...


----------



## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

homerjay said:


> My honest belief is youre being too sensitive...


*Exactly *based on what?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Well, I guess there are some people who insist on having OSFs. and there are some people who insist on not having them.


Just like there are people who insist on multi-dating when they can, and some who insist on single dating only.

Neither view in either of these topics is completely right or wrong, but may be right or wrong _for that person_. Differences make life interesting, don't you think?


----------



## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

Here is my experience with OSF...

My husband became friends with a female neighbor of his while we were dating. This all happened before we got married.

The female neighbor was in a dating relationship with a male friend of his. Neither one of us knew if it was casual dating relationship or a serious dating relationship.

She wanted his help with a problem concerning her dating relationship with his male friend. It concerned a private incident that happened between her and his male friend.

Since he wanted to be helpful, he chose to help her, but only as a friend.

He made it clear that he only wanted be her friend by letting her know that he only wanted to be her friend and by his actions.

She consumed a lot of his time and attention while we were dating by doing the following...


inviting him over to her place for lunch, dinner, to watch a movie, to listen to music, and to play a video game.
inviting him over to her place to talk... for 3 hours after he got home from work at 9 p.m.
*asking his help for the following:* her homework, to find something that she could not find at her place, to fill out a job application on his computer since she did not have internet access, to type an essay for a scholarship she wanted to apply for
using him as a subject for her photo shoots for the photography class she was taking
calling him at his place while I was spending time alone with him
texting him while I was spending time alone with him
She would leave her personal belongings at his place.

She told him that she is schizophrenic, hypoglycemic and autistic.

She insisted that she only wanted to be his friend. My gut feelings said the opposite.

I found out from him that when he told her that he was proposing to me, she said "spunkycat08 is not good enough for you." He still proposed to me.

He had to end their friendship for several reasons.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

spunkycat08 said:


> Here is my experience with OSF...
> 
> My husband became friends with a female neighbor of his while we were dating. This all happened before we got married.
> 
> ...


Yeah, she was definitely not interested in being just friends. 

Boundaries, damnit, get some! (Not you/anyone here, people in general.)


----------



## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

vms said:


> Yeah, she was definitely not interested in being just friends.
> 
> Boundaries, damnit, get some! (Not you/anyone here, people in general.)


vms:

I told my husband that she needed boundaries.

Boundaries were set when it became too much for me...

she only spends time with him in a group setting
no more going over to her place alone
no more being the subject of her photo shoots
She became defensive. According to my husband, her parents never gave her boundaries when she was growing up. 

She has the emotional maturity and the brain development of an adolescent. She was born in 1983.

She rebelled against the boundaries. I did not tolerate that.

That was one reason why their friendship ended.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> basically what I am trying to say is the OSF especially and friends in general, need to occupy less of ones time than their spouses by a wide margin. I think that is where the angst comes in these threads. The pro OSF folk really spend minimal time with the OSF relative to the time they spend with their spouse. The anti OSF camp has either been burned or really doesn't have enough time to support an OSF at all, so they see any time with an OSF as getting intimacy needs outside of mairrage.
> 
> Also, for OSF, you need strong and healthy boundaries. My guess is more people than you think struggle with this.


Adding to this, is not only the amount of physical time spent, but mental/emotional as well.

If you are thinking about your OSF while spending time with your spouse, that is a sign that the OSF is too big a part of your life.

This is why I feel one-on-one time with OSFs are detrimental- it's directly taking time away from the husband and wife to connect. See your OSF in a group, invite them over for dinner with your family. Maybe you two talk in the family room for a few minutes alone while the spouse washes the dishes in the kitchen after dinner, and then they join in. That should be more than enough OSF time.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

spunkycat08 said:


> She consumed a lot of his time and attention while we were dating by doing the following...
> 
> 
> inviting him over to her place for lunch, dinner, to watch a movie, to listen to music, and to play a video game.
> ...


Stuff like this is obvious and has nothing to do with those of us who have successful OSF.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> is why I feel one-on-one time with OSFs are detrimental- it's directly taking time away from the husband and wife to connect. See your OSF in a group, invite them over for dinner with your family. Maybe you two talk in the family room for a few minutes alone while the spouse washes the dishes in the kitchen after dinner, and then they join in. That should be more than enough OSF time.


Again, I don't get this burning desire for the anti-OSF folks to define their boundaries as everyone's boundaries.

You don't get to define what is, or is not, "more than enough" for other adults. I totally respect if that's the case for you and yours, but this debate rages on because so many of you anti-OSFers just show very little respect for the idea that other people simply have different boundaries and expectations for friendship than you do.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Again, I don't get this burning desire for the anti-OSF folks to define their boundaries as everyone's boundaries.
> 
> You don't get to define what is, or is not, "more than enough" for other adults. I totally respect if that's the case for you and yours, but this debate rages on because so many of you anti-OSFers just show very little respect for the idea that other people simply have different boundaries and expectations for friendship than you do.


Jaquen, what is the point of this thread then? I'm not telling you, specifically, what to do. I'm sharing my opinion of what I feel is healthy. 

You feel differently. It is perfectly okay for us to have different opinions on this and share them. That's the point of the debate.

You for some reason take offense to my opinion, as if I am going to make you do something. I don't understand why. Go ahead and spend as much one-on-one time with your OSFs as you like. 

Nobody here is going to convince you or me that the opposing view is correct. But there are people out there who maybe are on the fence about this whole idea - or else, why bring it up at all? My comments are directed at those people, not you.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Trust me Gabriel, it didn't once cross my mind that you could "make me" do anything. We're good there.

I'm calling out a pervasive attitude that baffles me, simple as that (my post was in response to you, but not singularly about you). Discussion, even debate, is well and good. But there is a difference between stating "this works for me", or even talking in general about potential problems that could arise from having OSF, and the typical "everyone's boundaries should be my boundaries" perspective this is so common for this (and a key few other) topics.

That's what I find interesting. Most people who have OSF on TAM take a perspective of "It works for us, but I respect that others have different boundaries". It's odd to me that so many of those with the opposing viewpoint seem to have such incredible difficulty extending the same basic understanding that your life =/= all lives.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Jaquen, it seems to me that this debate breaks down roughly to the following. Gabriel and I believe that the biological draw toward the opposite sex is stronger than any societal boundaries that humans try to put in place. You believe that human society has evolved to the point that those boundaries are sufficient to offset instincts and biological imperatives that have been in place for millions of years. You may be correct that a certain select few can resist the urge to fulfill the reproductive drive. I maintain that I value my marriage to much to test that theory.

You're right though. I see your viewpoint as reckless. Sort of like the man who jumps off a tall building and is heard to say as he plummets to earth "so far so good." But I respect your right to your own views as irresponsible as I may find them.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

I read the opinions of the people against OSFs to basically be, "My marriage is solid. I love my spouse. But I can't have a friend of the opposite sex. Oh but I'm trustworthy! Unless you have the right genitals and I'm alone with you."

Because" OSF's are a bad idea" would mean it applies to the person with that opinion, in which case, you're already considering being unloyal if an OSF is a threat to your marriage. 
That means YOU'RE the threat to your marriage.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

vms said:


> I read the opinions of the people against OSFs to basically be, "My marriage is solid. I love my spouse. But I can't have a friend of the opposite sex. Oh but I'm trustworthy! Unless you have the right genitals and I'm alone with you."
> 
> Because" OSF's are a bad idea" would mean it applies to the person with that opinion, in which case, you're already considering being unloyal if an OSF is a threat to your marriage.
> That means YOU'RE the threat to your marriage.


I can't be trusted. I'm human. I'm going to screw up. I don't trust anyone 100%, myself included. I think it's the height of hubris to believe otherwise.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

vms said:


> I read the opinions of the people against OSFs to basically be, "My marriage is solid. I love my spouse. But I can't have a friend of the opposite sex. Oh but I'm trustworthy! Unless you have the right genitals and I'm alone with you."
> 
> Because" OSF's are a bad idea" would mean it applies to the person with that opinion, in which case, you're already considering being unloyal if an OSF is a threat to your marriage.
> That means YOU'RE the threat to your marriage.


I have learned that the best solution to a problem is to avoid it completely.

If I don't want men to assume that "I am good to go" then I will not put myself in situations in which they might think that. 

My assumption is that if my husband does not want to lead women on in assuming that he is open to dating, then he will not put himself in situations with other women that are "date-like." 

I recall the text message from my (future) husband's just a friend ex. She accused him of "leading" her on. By that, I think she was pissed that my (future) husband was agreeing verbally that they were "just friends." And he had the audacity --after closing a 3 figure bar tab for her and her friends -- to go in for an open mouth kiss. 

You really can't expect the girlfriend treatment for nothing in return.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I have learned that the best solution to a problem is to avoid it completely.
> 
> If I don't want men to assume that "I am good to go" then I will not put myself in situations in which they might think that.
> 
> ...


Your husband treated her like a girlfriend. Don't know why you're blaming all of that on her alone. 

I'm not sure what "date-like" means. I never really "dated" people. Always just hung out with them, all casual like. 

Never did the deep-emotional-bonding stuff with my friends though, I'm pretty closed off except to family and H, so I do think I have a different style of friendship than what people are talking about here. I definitely share less personal stuff with my friends than they do with me. If I have a fight with H, if it's a really big one, I might call my mom or grandma. But usually not. My marriage is no one else's business, unless they're a doctor.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bfree said:


> I can't be trusted. I'm human. I'm going to screw up. I don't trust anyone 100%, myself included. I think it's the height of hubris to believe otherwise.


In that case, it won't matter if you have OSFs or not - you'll eventually screw up with them, or a coworker, or someone random. And in fact, those who are most adamant that they will never cheat are most likely to succumb, because they are so sure of themselves they never develop the awareness, strategies, and humility to avoid it when faced with temptation.

To eliminate so many people from healthy friendships because of the potential for something to go wrong is ludicrous, IMO. In that case, never leave you house or drive a car, because the _potential _is there to screw up and kill yourself or someone else.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

bfree said:


> Jaquen, it seems to me that this debate breaks down roughly to the following. Gabriel and I believe that the biological draw toward the opposite sex is stronger than any societal boundaries that humans try to put in place. You believe that human society has evolved to the point that those boundaries are sufficient to offset instincts and biological imperatives that have been in place for millions of years. You may be correct that a certain select few can resist the urge to fulfill the reproductive drive. I maintain that I value my marriage to much to test that theory.


bfree - I think this is exactly it. I do believe most people have the best of intentions and that some, in the right situations, would listen to the devil sitting on their right shoulder if he talks often enough.

Jaquen, to be fair, I was completely on your side of this argument for 20 years. My wife successfully maintained a close OSF relationship with a guy friend from college before she met me. 2-3 times a year they would get together and catch up. Only once every 4-6 months. No big deal. I was uncomfortable but not to the point I would disallow the 20 year friendship. In fact, I defended it to my neighbors, who raised their eyebrows when it came up she was visiting him for the day.

I would have been on this thread defending my choice to allow this relationship and be "a-okay" with it.

Then, finally, they crossed the line and fell in love. Not saying this will happen in all cases, or even 1/2 the cases, but it DOES HAPPEN, even to people who never intended for it to happen, like my wife and this guy. They did not want it to happen. It just did.

The point is, everything is "a-okay" until it's not. For many, maybe even most, OSFs will always be fine and they'll never have an issue. But some people WILL fall for their OSF, or in reverse, whether intended or not. Is it 10% of the cases, 20%, 30%? Who knows? But it's not zero. And it's not a game I choose to play anymore.

You live your way, I live mine. It's all good.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

I'll never understand "I didn't intend to fall in love." Either you allow yourself to get that close to someone, or you don't. Love isn't something you literally fall into. It's not a cliff you walk over cause you weren't paying attention.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

bfree said:


> You believe that human society has evolved to the point that those boundaries are sufficient to offset instincts and biological imperatives that have been in place for millions of years. You may be correct that a certain select few can resist the urge to fulfill the reproductive drive.


No that's not what I believe. That's your assumption about what I believe (which seems to be typical of many of you who are anti-OSF).

I wouldn't be close, intimate friends with a woman I was attracted to. That would be needless temptation and inappropriate for my marriage. 

What I fundamentally disagree with, what I believe is absolutely absurd, is the notion that every man who is attracted to women is therefore attracted to_ all _women, and therefore is incapable of being just friends with_ all _women (and vice versa for women).

Unless I'm expecting one of my close female friends to literally rape me, no there is no inherent danger in being close to another human being, who I am not sexually drawn to, simply because that human being has a vagina. 

Obviously if there is a woman in my life where there is some underlying attraction, the boundaries needed to be in place are far different in nature.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

bfree said:


> I can't be trusted. I'm human. I'm going to screw up. I don't trust anyone 100%, myself included. I think it's the height of hubris to believe otherwise.


No it's not hubris to know thyself enough to know what you won't consume.

I have alcohol maybe three times in any given year. There is no temptation for me to over consume a substance that I barely tolerate. Nothing inside me drives me to drink; it doesn't exist within. 

If you have the potential to overindulge in alcohol the boundaries that you need to put in place are completely different than mine would be. Even if you're not an alcoholic you might be still very aware that you could easily have a little too much while out at a party or in a bar. Having tougher boundaries would just be wise.

Nothing, and nobody, pressures me to drink if I don't want to. I've gone out plenty of times with a room full of drinkers, some flat drunk, while sipping on one glass of wine, a single beer, or more often than not just a club soda. Not even my own wife, a regular wine drinker, has been able to get me to drink more, despite her desire for me to.

I'm not a drinker. In the same way that I have never cheated on somebody.

I've never even cheated when I was in my 20s, 268 miles away from my girlfriend, while on a break from our relationship, technically free to date other people, surrounded by beautiful young women (occupational hazard), and getting hit on. 

I've never been tempted to cheat. Ever. Partly because I don't put myself in inappropriate situations with people that would weaken my boundaries.

Does that mean I'm immune to cheating? Of course not. But I know my boundaries. I know that there are plenty of women that I would never, ever sleep with. I don't stay in close, intimate, personal relationships with women who tempt my "biological imperative". That would be stupid.

The few women I'd consider close friends are women that I would never sleep with because no part of me even wants to. Even if my wife weren't in the picture.



Gabriel said:


> bfree - I think this is exactly it. I do believe most people have the best of intentions and that some, in the right situations, would listen to the devil sitting on their right shoulder if he talks often enough.
> 
> Jaquen, to be fair, I was completely on your side of this argument for 20 years...The point is, everything is "a-okay" until it's not. For many, maybe even most, OSFs will always be fine and they'll never have an issue. But some people WILL fall for their OSF, or in reverse, whether intended or not. Is it 10% of the cases, 20%, 30%? Who knows? But it's not zero. And it's not a game I choose to play anymore.


I don't disagree with this and I know, for a fact, that the lines can become blurred for some.

I just don't live my life in fear of the slim possibility of what "might" happen. I've read that affairs of the work place, between co-workers, are most common. Should I ask my wife to not work outside the home out of fear that she might fall for a co-worker? Well some perhaps, but that's just not the way I live my life.

Now obviously if my gut instinct told me something was wrong, or off, between my wife and a male friend, or even co-worker, that would need to be addressed (which actually has come up before with my wife, before she was my spouse).


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

jaquen said:


> No it's not hubris to know thyself enough to know what you won't consume.
> 
> I have alcohol maybe three times in any given year. There is no temptation for me to over consume a substance that I barely tolerate. Nothing inside me drives me to drink; it doesn't exist within.
> 
> If you have the potential to overindulge in alcohol the boundaries that you need to put in place are completely different than mine would be. Even if you're not an alcoholic you might be still very aware that you could easily have a little too much while out at a party or in a bar. Having tougher boundaries would just be wise.


But most people aren't alcoholics, whereas most people will develop some attraction or feelings for an attractive opposite sex person that they spend enough one-on-one time with. 



> I've never been tempted to cheat. Ever. Partly because I don't put myself in inappropriate situations with people that would weaken my boundaries.


But that's exactly the point of not having OSFs with attractive people, to avoid being in inappropriate situations that would weaken your boundaries.



> I just don't live my life in fear of the slim possibility of what "might" happen. I've read that affairs of the work place, between co-workers, are most common. Should I ask my wife to not work outside the home out of fear that she might fall for a co-worker? Well some perhaps, but that's just not the way I live my life.


This is missing the point and just making a strawman out of the people you're arguing with. No one said you shouldn't work around the opposite sex. However you probably shouldn't go to a one-on-one lunch with the worker who in the back of your mind is a little bit cute.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

One other thing: the woman I wound up having an EA with was exactly the one who, when I first met her, I thought "eh, she's really not hot at all, not my type, not all that pretty, not much of a body, seems like an interesting person though." Which was part of how I rationalized getting close to her.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Jaquen, I wasn't an alcoholic until I was one. I wasn't a drug addict until I was one. I thought I was too good of a person, too strong a man to succumb to those weaknesses. I was wrong. I now do not put myself in positions that would potentially cause issues. I've never cheated but I would be absolutely stupid to think infidelity is beyond me.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

John Lee said:


> One other thing: the woman I wound up having an EA with was exactly the one who, when I first met her, I thought "eh, she's really not hot at all, not my type, not all that pretty, not much of a body, seems like an interesting person though." Which was part of how I rationalized getting close to her.


You didn't "just get close to her" though. You made a conscious choice to treat her in a way you should only treat a spouse. Otherwise, how would an EA happen? It takes conscious choices. A, or B. Share, or don't share. Cross a line, or walk away.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

John Lee said:


> But that's exactly the point of not having *OSFs with attractive people*, to avoid being in inappropriate situations that would weaken your boundaries.


uh oh


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

So basically, as usual, this comes down to:

I fell, therefore everyone falls. My vice = potentially everyone's vice.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

vms said:


> You didn't "just get close to her" though. You made a conscious choice to treat her in a way you should only treat a spouse. Otherwise, how would an EA happen? It takes conscious choices. A, or B. Share, or don't share. Cross a line, or walk away.


The "conscious choices" you're talking about are the same thing as what I call "boundaries." So I'm not really sure what we're arguing about. The boundary I've now set is that I don't hang out one-on-one with people of the opposite sex in ways that aren't necessary. Because once I studied with her one-on-one a few times, it seemed ok to just take a little "study break" together and go for a walk, and then it seemed ok to "just get coffee" and then "just get lunch." And then maybe she makes a little sly joke that references sex, but it's just a joke! And then one day she tells you about a problem in her marriage, and you listen, because you're trying to be a good friend, right? And then you start to think it's ok to tell her about your marriage. I don't really need to continue this list. This is a progression over the course of more than a year. 

Yes, each step of the way I made a conscious choice, but many of those conscious choices could be justified as being part of "friendship."


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

jaquen said:


> So basically, as usual, this comes down to:
> 
> I fell, therefore everyone falls. My vice = potentially everyone's vice.


well done sir


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

jaquen said:


> No that's not what I believe. That's your assumption about what I believe (which seems to be typical of many of you who are anti-OSF).
> 
> I wouldn't be close, intimate friends with a woman I was attracted to. That would be needless temptation and inappropriate for my marriage.
> 
> ...


Right, this is an important distinction. If there is even any inkling of attraction, I mean ANY, then you really need be vary of the OSF issue. 

IF there is ZERO attraction, I don't see much harm in it. But you have to be completely honest with yourself here.

My wife told me her OM "was not boyfriend material, and is not my type", for 20 years. Then in the aftermath of her EA, she admitted, "Well, he's always been an attractive guy."

So some (SOME) will lie about this to justify that it's "harmless" to have the OSF. If they are being truthful, then I agree. But many aren't.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Keep in mind that all friendships have different boundaries. I don't have a singular friendship that's identical to another.

And when it comes to women, for example, without ever thinking about it or making a rule out of it, I never discuss marital issues, or talk negatively about my wife, with other women. All any female ever hears regarding my wife is how amazing she is and how in love we are.

Having OSF doesn't mean you're devoid of boundaries.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> In that case, it won't matter if you have OSFs or not - you'll eventually screw up with them, or a coworker, or someone random. And in fact, those who are most adamant that they will never cheat are most likely to succumb, *because they are so sure of themselves they never develop the awareness, strategies, and humility to avoid it when faced with temptation.*
> 
> To eliminate so many people from healthy friendships because of the potential for something to go wrong is ludicrous, IMO. In that case, never leave you house or drive a car, because the _potential _is there to screw up and kill yourself or someone else.


I'm glad you added that. That can be a real sticking point..... even in light of new information. A lot of people do not like admitting that they are / were wrong.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

jaquen said:


> So basically, as usual, this comes down to:
> 
> I fell, therefore everyone falls. My vice = potentially everyone's vice.


No, imo it comes down to the fact that we are all human and we all WILL screw up on occasion. To say "I will never" is to be susceptible to that exact thing. Better to acknowledge the possibility and take steps to prevent it. Unless you aren't human.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Keep in mind that all friendships have different boundaries. I don't have a singular friendship that's identical to another.
> 
> And when it comes to women, for example, without ever thinking about it or making a rule out of it, I never discuss marital issues, or talk negatively about my wife, with other women. All any female ever hears regarding my wife is how amazing she is and how in love we are.
> 
> Having OSF doesn't mean you're devoid of boundaries.


It's good that you have put in place effective safeguards to prevent problems from occurring. I do question having osf based only on attraction or lack thereof. What if you personally are not attracted to overweight women. What if one of your good friends is overweight and then proceeds to lose weight and get into fantastic shape. What if this friend becomes very attractive. Do you end the friendship?


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

bfree said:


> What if one of your good friends is overweight and then proceeds to lose weight and get into fantastic shape. What if this friend becomes very attractive. Do you end the friendship?


ooooh, that's good. That's a tough one. I think if your previously unattractive OSF becomes attractive TO YOU, then you really have to honest with yourself. If you suddenly have wandering thoughts/fantasies, etc, then yes, it might be a good idea to maintain more distance, at the very least. 

Flip it another way. What if your wife had no issue with the OSF, and now the OSF has gotten pretty hot. Now your wife becomes insecure and wants you to stop spending time with her.

To me, the right reaction is to honor your wife's wishes - be honest with the friend. Tell the friend that your wife has gotten uncomfortable with you spending time together and out of respect for the marriage you need to keep this in a group setting and/or cut back. This way the OSF isn't wondering what she did wrong. It's an honest respect of a boundary. And if the OSF gets really upset or rails on your wife, then, well, maybe that's a sign she wasn't a friend of your marriage.


----------



## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

John Lee said:


> The "conscious choices" you're talking about are the same thing as what I call "boundaries." So I'm not really sure what we're arguing about. The boundary I've now set is that I don't hang out one-on-one with people of the opposite sex in ways that aren't necessary. Because once I studied with her one-on-one a few times, it seemed ok to just take a little "study break" together and go for a walk, and then it seemed ok to "just get coffee" and then "just get lunch." And then maybe she makes a little sly joke that references sex, but it's just a joke! And then one day she tells you about a problem in her marriage, and you listen, because you're trying to be a good friend, right? And then you start to think it's ok to tell her about your marriage. I don't really need to continue this list. This is a progression over the course of more than a year.
> 
> Yes, each step of the way I made a conscious choice, *but many of those conscious choices could be justified as being part of "friendship.*"


Regarding the bolded part in pink....

No


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

bfree said:


> No, imo it comes down to the fact that we are all human and we all WILL screw up on occasion.


If I only screwed up "on occasion" that, my friend, would be an extraordinary feat. 

I am flawed. I am however telling you that not all people are flawed in the same way. That there are weaknesses that I have that you will never experience, and vice versa.




bfree said:


> It's good that you have put in place effective safeguards to prevent problems from occurring. I do question having osf based only on attraction or lack thereof. What if you personally are not attracted to overweight women. What if one of your good friends is overweight and then proceeds to lose weight and get into fantastic shape. What if this friend becomes very attractive. Do you end the friendship?


I am friends with very attractive women. I never said I wouldn't consider an attractive woman a friend.

I said I have different boundaries with different friends. I have very few truly close female friends; most of them are men. None of my truly close female friends am I attracted to on any level. But I do have casual friends and acquaintances, female, who are quite stunning women. It's damn near impossible in my profession not to. 

So no, I would never end a friendship, or acquaintance, because somebody is "very attractive". Very attractive people are a dime a dozen in my life. If I was actively attracted to a woman, as in I knew there was that pull there that could be dangerous, that would be an entirely different conversation about an entirely different set of boundaries. I'm extremely self aware. I have never just accidentally found myself in an inappropriate situation. I don't have the gift of self delusion. 

I could be wrong, but you tend to default to a one size fits all approach. That's now how I view life, and it's not how I live my life. It's a case by case basis.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I am friends with very attractive women. I never said I wouldn't consider an attractive woman a friend.
> 
> I said I have different boundaries with different friends. I have very few truly close female friends; most of them are men. None of my truly close female friends am I attracted to on any level. But I do have casual friends and acquaintances, female, who are quite stunning women. It's damn near impossible in my profession not to.


I think we're just describing the same thing in different terms. Obviously I have attractive women who are "acquaintances" or "casual friends." I just had a nice chat with a very attractive woman I work with in the break room. We talk occasionally about our kids and about good places to eat and things like that. I would never start a more intimate conversation with her though, and I'd never go to lunch with her or anything like that. If you want to call that an "OSF" that's fine. I have friends I keep in touch with from college who are attractive -- occasional facebook messages about how they are doing and the like. But nothing remotely flirty. I guess I just don't consider those friendships as very deep friendships so I don't think of them as OSFs. I doubt many people on this board literally avoid talking to the opposite sex.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't have close male friends, I have male acquaintances. FB friends, people I knew from high-school, college, work or were a friend of a friend. Nothing really of any substance. 

My BIL is probably my closest male friend. We don't make plans to hang out alone. When we see each other it's always a family event or holiday but we get along really well and will hang out together talking well after everyone else has disappeared to bed. He's kind of a geek and so am I so we talk about the same geeky stuff (swapping movie, TV and book titles and sharing drunken philosophy that nobody has the care nor patience for. You wouldn't catch me talking/staying up late like that with any other man though. He's a unique exception because he's family and I am no Jerry Springer hopeful lol. It's not technically incest but it's still gross to me to think about. He's my friend but just like a brother to me.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

John Lee said:


> I think we're just describing the same thing in different terms. Obviously I have attractive women who are "acquaintances" or "casual friends." I just had a nice chat with a very attractive woman I work with in the break room. We talk occasionally about our kids and about good places to eat and things like that. I would never start a more intimate conversation with her though, and I'd never go to lunch with her or anything like that. If you want to call that an "OSF" that's fine. I have friends I keep in touch with from college who are attractive -- occasional facebook messages about how they are doing and the like. But nothing remotely flirty. I guess I just don't consider those friendships as very deep friendships so I don't think of them as OSFs. I doubt many people on this board literally avoid talking to the opposite sex.


I would, and have, gone to lunch with women who I found very attractive and could easily see myself with under different circumstances. It's almost impossible for me to avoid that with my line of work anyway. An occasional lunch here or there isn't something I consider a danger zone.

I do have a few women who I am true, close friend with. I am not attracted to any of them. I can, and do, go out with these women one on one for hours for dinner, a movie, whatever. I don't see them very often though.

Regardless of how close I am to a woman, I don't discuss sexual, intimate deals with them, we don't flirt, and I never speak about my wife, or marriage, in anything less than glowing terms.


----------

