# Shallow



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Curious about this actually. I posted several times saying "I'd rather be shallow than waste a woman's time" however it makes me wonder really, why being shallow is still such a bad thing. On another thread the OP mentioned he felt shallow for not being attracted to a woman he's dating, where I recommended he let her go as I am a true believer that beauty remains in the eye of the beholder. In my workplace amongst my male colleagues we do banter and I found the variations of beauty are so diverse that even if I don't find a woman attractive there are many that do and even some women who are considered beautiful by a majority of men I don't find attractive and vice versa. They always say "look for inner beauty" and I agree with that, but I don't agree with rejecting physical beauty as attraction for me is not a choice.

For the most part I never really cared as I just accepted the label of "shallow" proudly, to hell with the haters. Yet it does puzzle me how I remain in the minority, who accepts the importance of physical attraction in a relationship. I also have very high standards, both looks-wise and personality-wise, making finding a suitable partner a time-consuming process yet it is a sacrifice I have been willing to make. My current girlfriend now hits all my buttons and personally I'm thankful I didn't compromise. I have compromised in the past, and although she was attractive she fell short of the moral standards I had - blocking any ability of mine to become emotionally attached leading to me feeling that I was leading her on - and I was.

Thoughts?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Curious about this actually. I posted several times saying "I'd rather be shallow than waste a woman's time" however it makes me wonder really, why being shallow is still such a bad thing. On another thread the OP mentioned he felt shallow for not being attracted to a woman he's dating, where I recommended he let her go as I am a true believer that beauty remains in the eye of the beholder. In my workplace amongst my male colleagues we do banter and I found the variations of beauty are so diverse that even if I don't find a woman attractive there are many that do and even some women who are considered beautiful by a majority of men I don't find attractive and vice versa. They always say "look for inner beauty" and I agree with that, but I don't agree with rejecting physical beauty as attraction for me is not a choice.
> 
> For the most part I never really cared as I just accepted the label of "shallow" proudly, to hell with the haters. Yet it does puzzle me how I remain in the minority, who accepts the importance of physical attraction in a relationship. I also have very high standards, both looks-wise and personality-wise, making finding a suitable partner a time-consuming process yet it is a sacrifice I have been willing to make. My current girlfriend now hits all my buttons and personally I'm thankful I didn't compromise. I have compromised in the past, and although she was attractive she fell short of the moral standards I had - blocking any ability of mine to become emotionally attached leading to me feeling that I was leading her on - and I was.
> 
> Thoughts?


Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes to the bone!😈


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have a theory about a shallowness. If a woman says she only dates men at least 6 feet tall, who is it that accuses her of being shallow? Answer - men under 6 feet tall. 

If a man says he only likes blonds, who points the finger at him for being shallow? Answer - brunettes and redheads. 

In other words, the people that accuse others of being shallow are the ones who didn't make the cut for whatever reason. 

The others just call it preferences and standards. 

All of us are going to be eliminated by someone for some dumb reason or another and when we do, we tend to want to lash out at the person for eliminating us for whatever that reason is. We say they are shallow because we know how awesome we are and here they are crossing us off the list because our eyes or hair is a certain color or we are too short or too tall or too fat or too skinny. 

In the end we only have to live with ourselves and we all have standards and preferences and not everyone is going to meet those standards.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think it's fine to be "shallow", and i quote it because it can mean different things to different people, as long as one understands that they can't complain when they have to deal with qualities that they didn't prioritize.

So if physical appearance is important to the detriment of all else, then that's all you can ask for. If you get an otherwise poor partner then no sympathy for you..... you made the decision that outward appearance was all that mattered.

I also think you need to expect potential partners to judge you by the same criteria by which you judge them. Don't think you are entitled to hot women when you're not hot just because you think you're nice.

And if you do manage to get a partner based on shallow criteria, make sure you understand what the relationship is..... which is likely a business deal. If you used money to attract her that's what she's in it for..... don't have any grand illusions that she's somehow into you. 

As long as you understand what you have a reasonable chance of getting then have at it. 

Having said all that, I agree that physical attraction is important. Make sure you're bringing your best self to this deal.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

That's exactly it! You see, I'm under no illusion of my own looks, I know alot of women are attracted to me and alot of women who are not. That's the same way with women I find attractive, many men may also find them unattractive and wonder "whats wrong with you" as typical banter. That's reality. Now when I date women, I pick the ones who I'm attracted to, but it's never the sole reason I date them, for example; my ex-girlfriend, she was very attractive but I couldn't stand a quality of hers which prioritised material wealth. Folks said that I should accept that aspect of hers while it has always bothered me.

Now fast forward to present day, I met a woman who is not only attractive but has proven to me she simply isn't that type. I look back at ex-GF and go... why did I lead her on? Now applying this to dating principles; we all want to treat people how we want to be treated right? Do I want to be led on? No! So if a woman doesn't find me attractive I would appreciate her moving on, because there's plenty of other women who do. Yet when I apply this principle, I am called "shallow"! Do women want to be led on?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

"Shallow" is an adjective, an opinion. Not much more.


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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

Geeeez. I'm fine with what RandomDude said. I'm a woman and I'm not bothered. He's the one who has to look at and talk to whatever woman he chooses. Potentially forever. I can't imagine being silently annoyed by certain attributes just to please the public. 

Like RandomDude, I've been lucky to get the main things that I wanted. I always have. However, I do have what I am asking for too. 





RandomDude said:


> Curious about this actually. I posted several times saying "I'd rather be shallow than waste a woman's time" however it makes me wonder really, why being shallow is still such a bad thing. On another thread the OP mentioned he felt shallow for not being attracted to a woman he's dating, where I recommended he let her go as I am a true believer that beauty remains in the eye of the beholder. In my workplace amongst my male colleagues we do banter and I found the variations of beauty are so diverse that even if I don't find a woman attractive there are many that do and even some women who are considered beautiful by a majority of men I don't find attractive and vice versa. They always say "look for inner beauty" and I agree with that, but I don't agree with rejecting physical beauty as attraction for me is not a choice.
> 
> For the most part I never really cared as I just accepted the label of "shallow" proudly, to hell with the haters. Yet it does puzzle me how I remain in the minority, who accepts the importance of physical attraction in a relationship. I also have very high standards, both looks-wise and personality-wise, making finding a suitable partner a time-consuming process yet it is a sacrifice I have been willing to make. My current girlfriend now hits all my buttons and personally I'm thankful I didn't compromise. I have compromised in the past, and although she was attractive she fell short of the moral standards I had - blocking any ability of mine to become emotionally attached leading to me feeling that I was leading her on - and I was.
> 
> Thoughts?




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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

What was wrong with the ex-girlfriend prioritizing material wealth? Outward displays of financial success mattered to her the same way looks matter to you. I still see nothing wrong with either one but it is a double standard. 



RandomDude said:


> That's exactly it! You see, I'm under no illusion of my own looks, I know alot of women are attracted to me and alot of women who are not. That's the same way with women I find attractive, many men may also find them unattractive and wonder "whats wrong with you" as typical banter. That's reality. Now when I date women, I pick the ones who I'm attracted to, but it's never the sole reason I date them, for example; my ex-girlfriend, she was very attractive but I couldn't stand a quality of hers which prioritised material wealth. Folks said that I should accept that aspect of hers while it has always bothered me.
> 
> Now fast forward to present day, I met a woman who is not only attractive but has proven to me she simply isn't that type. I look back at ex-GF and go... why did I lead her on? Now applying this to dating principles; we all want to treat people how we want to be treated right? Do I want to be led on? No! So if a woman doesn't find me attractive I would appreciate her moving on, because there's plenty of other women who do. Yet when I apply this principle, I am called "shallow"! Do women want to be led on?




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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

"For richer or for poorer"

I wasn't born with my wealth, I worked my ass off for it tooth and nail, and now I'm surrendering alot of my financial privileges to pursue a very sharp career change to pursue a dream. If I had stayed with my ex-GF, no way would I be able to do this!

Current GF supports me all the way. As for ex-GF I respected her priorities but I disagreed with them. And I disagree with it the same way I disagree with what mum did when she remarried. Now she's trapped. She married for financial security and in stepfather's will she gets nothing, at the same time he has protected himself by making many of his assets divorce-proof, now she's eating out of his hand. Now I told her recently that it's better to marry a poor man who would give her his all, than a rich man who would give her nothing. She realised that, only too late.

Now I don't consider a woman "shallow" for not finding me attractive, but since I never go for a woman for wealth I don't see it as a double-standard. It's always bugged me with ex-GF but she was always respectful and honest about the matter. I wasn't - I led her on when it continued to trouble me. Now I hold the standard of non-materialism as imperative, hence I found my current GF.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Shallow is what the selfless call the selfish. But selfishness is not the bad thing it is made up to be. In fact I would venture to guess most of us who are divorced would actually say it was our selflessness that caused the whole thing in the first place. No one is as going to advocate for you as much as you do. Selfishness is what leads to good relations, not what ruins them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I don't consider myself shallow but I have many deal breakers ... as I ultimately know MYSELF, what I need, what I couldn't live with, where I would want to be CHANGING someone , which is futile.... 

IF I compromised on any of them.. It would cause colossal contentions down the road...... We can't change people, what they want, who they are, if we'd prefer them to have another look, or lose a few lbs... it's all a waste of time.. if we can't accept them FULLY for their flaws, quirks... all of it... we're barking up the wrong tree...better to not waste anyone's time or bang our heads against the wall...

Best to know what DOES it for each of us and seek compatible mates... let them go quickly if we find ourselves comparing them to others we are more INTO or attracted / any looking over the fence...you gotta just be honest with yourself.. shallow or particular, whatever one ones to call it... we shouldn't set ourselves up for a fall or anyone else for that matter.. keep the good fight and not settle..


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Like my dear friend Simply, I have just a plethora of dealbreakers in a woman ~ but the things that I preeminently look for in a quality partner are trustability, open-mindedness, even temperament and self confidence, an aura of attractability, a penchant for being well-educated, someone who puts love far over material wealth, a heartfelt love of God and nature, and someone who looks after their body as the temple that God had enshrined in it! This, in my minds eye is collectively what comprises "beauty!"

Now if that is being shallow, then just call me that ~ which is probably why I'm still single with little to no hope of ever finding another Mrs. Arb who I feel should be able to meet most of the precepts of that exacting criteria!

But to that end, all that I can really say is "to thine own heart be true!"*


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I always refused to date bald or balding men . I just find bald or shaved heads (shaved because they're trying to hide that they're going bald) just so incredibly unattractive and that ain't ever going to change. I also refused to date cops because I think they're egotistical ****heads who think the rules don't apply to them. 

I guess I'm shallow. I can live with that. :grin2:


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

I think everyone is "shallow" to some extent, whether it can be admitted or not. We all have preferences about physical appearance, where the specificity and strength of our preferences vary on an individual level.

Since looks fade over time, being "shallow" doesn't bode well for traditional marriage and represents an ideological departure from the institution of the family, perhaps explaining the common stigma around being shallow. 

Society purports that skin-deep attraction doesn't result in a lasting relationship, so the people who base their attractions that way are judged for it. But like I mentioned, everyone is shallow, so the stigma is nothing more than a cycle of judgment and hypocrisy.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

IMO shallow people are not marriage material. If you want to date somebody who is eventually going to get bored and want to move on, then have at it but as somebody else said about the GFs (which IMO does NOT apply when dating) "for better or for worse."


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I was not physically attracted to my first husbands looks, but through friendship fell in love with his other great qualities.
Certinaly I had been physically attracted to other "boys" but I hadn't know what it was like to be with one of them.

Now, second time around, I am crazy attracted to my husband. I sit across from him at dinner and have to interrupt him to tell him how handsome he is, and that I think he is so hot I want to jump him.

So is that shallow? I don't know, but I love how it feels. >


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> "For richer or for poorer"
> 
> I wasn't born with my wealth, I worked my ass off for it tooth and nail, and now I'm surrendering alot of my financial privileges to pursue a very sharp career change to pursue a dream. If I had stayed with my ex-GF, no way would I be able to do this!
> 
> ...


Random, not sure why this is a topic worth of discussion really, aren't all of these things such as attraction, values, shallowness, etc. relative, depending on who is looking at them.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

When it comes to mate selection I don't see anything wrong with being shallow. I also don't even see anything wrong with discriminating. Dating is not the time to be PC. At the end of the day its you who has to be with that person, no one else. Go for what you like. Far too many marriages that are lousy because someone picked someone to settle down with that they "just weren't that into". Its not fair to them, and its not fair to you either.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see shallow as prioritizing the wrong things. For example, if you only want to date young blond women that is OK. But if you want to only *marry* a young blond woman, that is not sensible because 30 years later she is not going to still be young. You've picked a stupid criteria.

I also see as shallow picking things that have little impact on the happiness of a relationship. For most people, "physically attractive but evil / crazy" is a very poor choice.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> I have a theory about a shallowness. If a woman says she only dates men at least 6 feet tall, who is it that accuses her of being shallow? Answer - men under 6 feet tall.
> 
> If a man says he only likes blonds, who points the finger at him for being shallow? Answer - brunettes and redheads.
> 
> ...


Not always true. A couple of guys (black) told me that they are only interested in dating fair skinned black women, which I am.

There are some who wonder what other areas is this person shallow. Or if they are shallow about stuff that changes / can change weight, wealth, etc. watch out.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

m00nman said:


> IMO shallow people are not marriage material. If you want to date somebody who is eventually going to get bored and want to move on, then have at it but as somebody else said about the GFs (which IMO does NOT apply when dating) "for better or for worse."


So, would you want someone who is going to get bored and just settle? You can't predict anyone else's experiences.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Ynot said:


> So, would you want someone who is going to get bored and just settle? You can't predict anyone else's experiences.


That's the opposite of what I said. What you should want is someone who excites you and shares your values so that when you get married you feel like that person is part of you. If you take the time to get to know this person well enough then yes, you should be able to predict their experiences. It's called trust and keeping faithful to another person whom you've pledged to stay with for the rest of your life. 

I know: I'm being naive, but I've known people who have been happily married for over 50 years though. They may have changed over that time, but they changed together in order to face life challenges. One thing is for certain, they didn't shop around and trying out different people like shopping for a new car and settle for the first one they liked. They got to know the other person and accepted their flaws.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Thoughts?


Don't settle for that which you don't like.



oldshirt said:


> I have a theory about a shallowness. If a woman says she only dates men at least 6 feet tall, who is it that accuses her of being shallow? Answer - men under 6 feet tall.


I'm 5'3" and I've never considered any woman shallow for having a preference for taller men. I have a preference for taller women myself, so I can appreciate the fact that some women prefer dating taller men.



oldshirt said:


> If a man says he only likes blonds, who points the finger at him for being shallow? Answer - brunettes and redheads.


I've never heard anyone say that, why would any brunette or redhead want to be with a man who doesn't find their hair colour attractive?



oldshirt said:


> In other words, the people that accuse others of being shallow are the ones who didn't make the cut for whatever reason.


I think your hypothesis is nonsense, I have preferences just as others do. I would be a fool to want to be in a sexual relationship with someone who isn't sexually attracted to me. If someone doesn't want to be in a sexual relationship with me (not making the cut)



oldshirt said:


> The others just call it preferences and standards.


Those who are rational regardless of rejection or otherwise, appreciate the fact that we all can't help what we like and don't like.



oldshirt said:


> All of us are going to be eliminated by someone for some dumb reason or another and when we do, we tend to want to lash out at the person for eliminating us for whatever that reason is. We say they are shallow because we know how awesome we are and here they are crossing us off the list because our eyes or hair is a certain color or we are too short or too tall or too fat or too skinny.


Lots of people don't think like that, I've never felt an urge to lash out at someone because they have turned me down or rejected me.

Just as I have no hesitation in rejecting different women for different reasons, I have no problem with being rejected by different women for different reasons.

I've never thought anyone is shallow for choosing what they want and rejecting what they don't want.



oldshirt said:


> In the end we only have to live with ourselves and we all have standards and preferences and not everyone is going to meet those standards.


Yep.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> I always refused to date bald or balding men . I just find bald or shaved heads (shaved because they're trying to hide that they're going bald) just so incredibly unattractive and that ain't ever going to change. I also refused to date cops because I think they're egotistical ****heads who think the rules don't apply to them.
> 
> I guess I'm shallow. I can live with that. :grin2:


My wife feels the same way about bald and balding men and has had no qualms telling me if I go bald she'll dump me.

I don't think not wanting what you don't find attractive makes anyone shallow.



uhtred said:


> I see shallow as prioritizing the wrong things. For example, if you only want to date young blond women that is OK. But if you want to only *marry* a young blond woman, that is not sensible because 30 years later she is not going to still be young. You've picked a stupid criteria.
> 
> I also see as shallow picking things that have little impact on the happiness of a relationship. For most people, "physically attractive but evil / crazy" is a very poor choice.


Does one have to choose one to the exclusion of the other?

My wife and I chose each other because we considered each other to be aesthetically and sexually pleasing in combination with other things. If we didn't find each other aesthetically and sexually attractive, we would have sensibly rejected each other regardless of any other commendable qualities.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

m00nman said:


> That's the opposite of what I said. What you should want is someone who excites you and shares your values so that when you get married you feel like that person is part of you. If you take the time to get to know this person well enough then yes, you should be able to predict their experiences. It's called trust and keeping faithful to another person whom you've pledged to stay with for the rest of your life.
> 
> I know: I'm being naive, but I've known people who have been happily married for over 50 years though. They may have changed over that time, but they changed together in order to face life challenges. One thing is for certain, they didn't shop around and trying out different people like shopping for a new car and settle for the first one they liked. They got to know the other person and accepted their flaws.


You can never predict someone else's experience. No matter how well you know them, they will have their own experience, regardless of whatever experience you will have. And an unfortunate aspect of the modern world is that those experiences are much more diverse than in the past.
Yes, there are many people who remain married for 50 years and they probably have worked hard to maintain the relationship, but that is not the reality for most couples. There is nothing wrong with striving for the ideal, but you need to recognize reality. It is not so much that people are shopping around and trying out different people. It is that times change and along with them circumstances. Sometimes when the starts align, our circumstances coincide with our partners. But sometimes they don't. 
Don't settle for less than you are willing to accept. That is where most marriages go bad. And the fact remains that what may have been acceptable to you as a 30 year old may not be acceptable to you as a 50 year old. Times change and so do people, more so today than at any other point in time.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Wanting someone attractive is completely fine. Its just that if you are intending a long term relationship, don't let age be a big factor since it will change .



Personal said:


> Don't settle for that which you don't like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Ynot said:


> You can never predict someone else's experience. No matter how well you know them, they will have their own experience, regardless of whatever experience you will have. And an unfortunate aspect of the modern world is that those experiences are much more diverse than in the past.
> Yes, there are many people who remain married for 50 years and they probably have worked hard to maintain the relationship, but that is not the reality for most couples. There is nothing wrong with striving for the ideal, but you need to recognize reality. It is not so much that people are shopping around and trying out different people. It is that times change and along with them circumstances. Sometimes when the starts align, our circumstances coincide with our partners. But sometimes they don't.
> Don't settle for less than you are willing to accept. That is where most marriages go bad. And the fact remains that what may have been acceptable to you as a 30 year old may not be acceptable to you as a 50 year old. Times change and so do people, more so today than at any other point in time.


Good point. One person's midlife crisis or other crises like the loss of a job or a relative or child can hit a person hard and cause their tolerance for things to go away.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I always refused to date bald or balding men . I just find bald or shaved heads (shaved because they're trying to hide that they're going bald) just so incredibly unattractive and that ain't ever going to change. I also refused to date cops because I think they're egotistical ****heads who think the rules don't apply to them.
> 
> I guess I'm shallow. I can live with that. :grin2:


 So if you married a man who wasn't bald, but went bald many years later what then?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

When I was single again after a long first marriage the criteria I had was very much about character and integrity and honesty. I wasn't worried how much money he had, he didn't need to be really good looking, or have an expensive car. 
My criteria were that he was a Christian, had strong moral values, was honest, had integrity, was kind, patient, easy going, didn't look at porn, hadn't slept around, worked hard, would be a good step dad to my (adult)children, and liked animals. 
As it happened, he wasn't my usual physical type, but I have always found him attractive, partly because of his character. He was everything on my list. 

Looks change. People go bald, get wrinkles, gain weight, go grey, get saggy, etc etc. What is inside will last and determine the quality of the person and marriage. 
A family member recently got married to quite a large lady. They adore each other and she is a lovely and very intelligent girl. I respect him for seeing her good qualities.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Wanting someone attractive is completely fine. Its just that if you are intending a long term relationship, don't let age be a big factor since it will change .


I measure aesthetic appeal as something that is relative to someones age.

For example my wife remains more attractive than many of her same age peers.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> So if you married a man who wasn't bald, but went bald many years later what then?


My wife would dump me.

That said it's a moot point for me, since at almost 46 I am not bald and don't even have a receding hairline.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Personal said:


> My wife would dump me.
> 
> That said it's a moot point for me, since at almost 46 I am not bald and don't even have a receding hairline.


I hope you are joking! 46 is very young btw. 
I actually think that some bald men are sexy, my husband is 60, has been gradually losing his hair from the front for years, and is now 80% grey, I think he is sexier than ever. :smile2:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For me, the age I find attractive tends to move with my own, but for some people beauty is associated with youth, and that makes the problem much more difficult for them. 



Personal said:


> I measure aesthetic appeal as something that is relative to someones age.
> 
> For example my wife remains more attractive than many of her same age peers.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> For me, the age I find attractive tends to move with my own, but for some people beauty is associated with youth, and that makes the problem much more difficult for them.


I always find it creepy when middle-aged and old man lust after very young women and go after them. Of course, the very rich/famous old man will get a young woman because of his wealth.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

Coming back to this thread. Is "being shallow" too often associated with preferences on physical characteristics? I went to this definition by default, where in reality, being shallow can touch upon many things.

I remember when I was dating my now wife, she placed a big emphasis on my career and not wanting to date (or marry) someone she deemed to be "a loser". Initially, this struck me as her being shallow, but now I wonder if I misjudged her then. If she prefers financial security, she is entitled to that preference. 

And thinking along these lines, I'm converging to a mindset that many of our preferences are completely normal, and only construed as bad by others. In particular, our preferences may emit negative signals to other people due to commonly upheld societal norms (e.g. shallow people aren't fit for marriage), or upsetting someone who feels judged (guy/gal doesn't make someone's cut).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Personal said:


> My wife would dump me.
> 
> That said it's a moot point for me, since at almost 46 I am not bald and don't even have a receding hairline.


You could get alopecia tomorrow my friend and never grow another hair on your head.
Where does that leave you and your marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> You could get alopecia tomorrow my friend and never grow another hair on your head.
> Where does that leave you and your marriage.


Yes, and many men don't start losing their hair till their 50's or 60's.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I always find it creepy when middle-aged and old man lust after very young women and go after them. Of course, the very rich/famous old man will get a young woman because of his wealth.


Do you also find it creepy when middle-age women lust after young men?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Steve1000 said:


> Do you also find it creepy when middle-age women lust after young men?


Yes like the new French president's wife. She looks like his mum.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Yes like the new French president's wife. She looks like his mum.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Right there with you RD although I don't think having preferences is the same as being shallow, it is actually being honest and realistic. We can have preferences but they should never be used to be hurtful to other people. I don't like over weight men but would never say I won't date you bc you are fat.
The lessons of past marriages, relationships should be learnt and give us confidence to find a compatible match, the power to have enough confidence to not settle.

My list of preferences was fairly long but there is no point pretending or settling: intelligent, very good looking, HD and a superb lover, high earner (this one gets me in trouble on TAM, not sure why others find it offensive), white collar career, not blonde, not religious, high EQ, fit, not overweight, very high morals, good parent, 10/10 SOH, non misogynist etc
I found all of that and more and would have remained single or in casual relationships till I found him. To do any less is to settle.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I wouldn't call it being "shallow." I'd call it "preference."
And the more confident you are about your preferences, the more likely you will pursue them, and the happier you will likely be in life.
Someone else may think your preferences shallow, but that someone else does not live your life.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Yes like the new French president's wife. She looks like his mum.


I've seen pictures of her where it's not so much.

In any case, I'll have what she's having.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> You could get alopecia tomorrow my friend and never grow another hair on your head.
> Where does that leave you and your marriage.


All of us can be replaced.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Personal said:


> All of us can be replaced.


That's kind of sad, though, isn't it? I mean, yes, we can all be replaced. And the truth is that if my husband lost all his lovely locks, I would have a much, much harder time being attracted to him.

But we have 20 years of bonding. We have much in common, so much so that he's the only guy who has ever "got" me. Not sure there really is any other guy out there that could. Certainly, most don't. 

It would be pretty shallow for me to throw him over because of a bit of hair, wouldn't it? No matter how lovely it is. 

Personally, I think shallow has a meaning. It isn't the same meaning as "preference", but still a real meaning, and some people actually do fit it. At least IMHO.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@wild jade I'd rather be let go than remain with someone, who finds out that they have a much harder time being attracted to me.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Personal said:


> All of us can be replaced.


Man that is a sad way to look at marriage.You actually believe and accept it seems that if you lost your hair your wife would dump you.That is not so much shallow as superficial.What about you,have you any deal breakers.Weight gain,reduced sexual activity,or my own personal favourite tattoos?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

It's not sad it's just reality, people come and go just as people live and then die.

I would hate to be in a sexual relationship (which includes marriage) with someone who doesn't find me sexually attractive. Just as I would not choose someone or remain in a sexual relationship with someone who I am not or no longer sexually attracted to.

As to deal breakers mine can be variable just as they are subjective. For example when it comes to sexual relationships I have a preference for taller brunette women (my wife, ex-wife and plenty of others), yet I have happily been with a few women who were blonde and shorter than me since I still found them aesthetically and sexually pleasing.


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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

Steve1000 said:


> Do you also find it creepy when middle-age women lust after young men?


There's a reason why older women chase younger men. ;-)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Personal said:


> @wild jade I'd rather be let go than remain with someone, who finds out that they have a much harder time being attracted to me.


You must be relatively young? As far as I can tell, aging ain't pretty for anyone. And there's no way I would dump my man of however many years for some pretty young stud just because "pretty".

I hear ya. I would rather my husband let me go than suffer from having to look at my ugly aging face. But I do hope that I have more to offer him than "pretty".


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Personal said:


> All of us can be replaced.


How sad. :frown2:


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> So if you married a man who wasn't bald, but went bald many years later what then?


The question was what we think about being shallow and/or if anyone else has certain 'must haves' in order to be attracted to someone else. I listed mine. 

Your question can apply to anyone.

Those who are only turned on by blonds will eventually see that blond go grey; those who only want thin, shapely people may eventually see their mate gain a lot of weight, those who only want stylish men or women may very well see those mates eventually let themselves go, etc.

No one can guarantee that they'll have the same 'parts' 30 or 40 years from now that they had when they were dating or just got married. But that wasn't the topic of this thread.

I will say my 60 year old husband STILL has a full head of gorgeous, dark, wavy hair. Jackpot! :grin2:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wild jade said:


> You must be relatively young? As far as I can tell, aging ain't pretty for anyone. And there's no way I would dump my man of however many years for some pretty young stud just because "pretty".
> 
> I hear ya. I would rather my husband let me go than suffer from having to look at my ugly aging face. But I do hope that I have more to offer him than "pretty".


I'm middle aged.

When I was young I was young and pretty, now that I am older I am no longer that.

Yet as we age and hair grows in the wrong places, in the wrong colour and our skin changes and all of the rest. We still find each other appealing, still want to share our time together and enjoy the time that we share. Since we expect to age and to change along the way, we accept that and look a one another with the expectation that we will look our age. It's normal in my family for almost all of the men to have lots of hair, even into their 90s.

I expect my wife to look like an attractive middle aged woman, I don't expect her to look like an attractive young woman when she isn't young. I think that some women are beautiful at any age and that includes being elderly. Just as I expect my wife to be an attractive elderly woman when and if she gets there.

Incidentally I draw and paint pictures of both men and women (young, middle aged and elderly who model naked for me and or others as well. Of which I can honestly say I have appreciated seeing such wonderful and beautiful people, who come in all shapes and sizes who have generously disrobed for my art.


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## Stang197 (Aug 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Personal said:
> 
> 
> > All of us can be replaced.
> ...


Sad but very true. I guess that is why you always have to make sure you are improving.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I have a theory about a shallowness. If a woman says she only dates men at least 6 feet tall, who is it that accuses her of being shallow? Answer - men under 6 feet tall.
> 
> If a man says he only likes blonds, who points the finger at him for being shallow? Answer - brunettes and redheads.
> 
> ...


I don't consider shallow to be a pejorative. If someone wants to be shallow, more power to them. It's a way to make life easier.

In my view, all men who insist on big or small boobs is shallow. And I'm a guy. I've met women who insisted men be a certain height - and even if it included my height, I still found them to be shallow in many other ways. Shallow isn't bad...it's just not the type of personality I care for. External appearances have been so overhyped in Western culture...more money is spent on things to make a person look different, then is spent on things that make a person think or act differently.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Curious about this actually. I posted several times saying "I'd rather be shallow than waste a woman's time" however it makes me wonder really, why being shallow is still such a bad thing. On another thread the OP mentioned he felt shallow for not being attracted to a woman he's dating, where I recommended he let her go as I am a true believer that beauty remains in the eye of the beholder. In my workplace amongst my male colleagues we do banter and I found the variations of beauty are so diverse that even if I don't find a woman attractive there are many that do and even some women who are considered beautiful by a majority of men I don't find attractive and vice versa. They always say "look for inner beauty" and I agree with that, but I don't agree with rejecting physical beauty as attraction for me is not a choice.
> 
> For the most part I never really cared as I just accepted the label of "shallow" proudly, to hell with the haters. Yet it does puzzle me how I remain in the minority, who accepts the importance of physical attraction in a relationship. I also have very high standards, both looks-wise and personality-wise, making finding a suitable partner a time-consuming process yet it is a sacrifice I have been willing to make. My current girlfriend now hits all my buttons and personally I'm thankful I didn't compromise. I have compromised in the past, and although she was attractive she fell short of the moral standards I had - blocking any ability of mine to become emotionally attached leading to me feeling that I was leading her on - and I was.
> 
> Thoughts?


 @RandomDude, 

I've also always been curious about this one, because it makes no sense to me. For some people, being attracted to their spouse...or finding their spouse attractive...is a major need. For other people, it just isn't as major. Why is that shallow? I mean, as I understand it, even for the folks who have the need to be attracted to their spouse, it's not like they're saying "You have to never gain weight and never get older" but rather "Don't let yourself go. Use the assets God has given ya to look appealing. Do your hair...smell good...wear sexy clothes or lingerie under that conservative outfit...and if you've got it, work it!" Right? 

I see it like people who have the need for financial security. Those folks just get demonized (male or female) because "all you want me for is my wallet!" Well... in truth yeah! The need to feel like the world won't crash around them financially is a need for some folks. The need to be able to live a certain lifestyle is a need for some folks--one that determines who they will or will not consider as a life mate! So why is that bad? 

The way I see it, the wise thing to do is to figure out what your needs are and then be honest with the folks you date and only consider those people who meet your needs. If someone had the need of Admiration and married in introvert who rarely speaks out loud, no one acts like having that need is immoral or "wrong"--so why is it so wrong to want an attractive spouse? I think we can all agree that bodies do change as we have children and age, but man at 50yo eat healthy, fix your hair nice or have a cute hair cut, wear a scent that is signature and sexy, wear complimentary clothes... and be beautiful at 50 whether you're a guy or a lady. 

Some folks don't care about that. I don't. I mean... for me I don't lose attraction if Dear Hubby feels like wearing a t-shirt every day and doesn't braid his hair (he has long, biker hair and a beard). I just like HIM, and then the physical stuff is generated from who HE is ... for me. I figure other folks just aren't me! So why would that be "wrong"? It's not wrong, just different.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> @RandomDude,
> 
> I've also always been curious about this one, because it makes no sense to me. For some people, being attracted to their spouse...or finding their spouse attractive...is a major need. For other people, it just isn't as major. Why is that shallow? I mean, as I understand it, even for the folks who have the need to be attracted to their spouse, it's not like they're saying "You have to never gain weight and never get older" but rather "Don't let yourself go. Use the assets God has given ya to look appealing. Do your hair...smell good...wear sexy clothes or lingerie under that conservative outfit...and if you've got it, work it!" Right?
> 
> ...


Yeah I think the thing that sh-ts me most is dishonesty, I had my disagreements with ex-GF in regards to her financial priorities, but she was completely honest about it, and I hated the fact that I wasn't honest with her that I needed my own sense of security; that she would be with me if I was robbed of my wealth. I don't blame her for hating me for dumping her on V-day all those years ago, but I couldn't keep the charade any longer.

So now, I'm honest with my needs. If our values aren't compatible, best I let them go find someone who would best appreciate them, same goes for looks or financial status. Hence I'm shallow, meh.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Personal said:


> I'm middle aged.
> 
> When I was young I was young and pretty, now that I am older I am no longer that.
> 
> ...


Oh well, I suppose I'm a bit dark. I'm just thinking of the person who loses all their hair to chemo, or maybe their breasts to cancer, or disfigurement because of an accident. I've seen all these things and more happen to the people I love, and it's just too sad when they get dumped for no longer being what they once were. 

I guess that means that I value companionship and connection more than I value beauty -- especially as I head towards old age and my health and looks are so much less certain.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Yeah I think the thing that sh-ts me most is dishonesty, I had my disagreements with ex-GF in regards to her financial priorities, but she was completely honest about it, and I hated the fact that I wasn't honest with her that *I needed my own sense of security; that she would be with me if I was robbed of my wealth*. I don't blame her for hating me for dumping her on V-day all those years ago, but I couldn't keep the charade any longer.
> 
> So now, I'm honest with my needs. If our values aren't compatible, best I let them go find someone who would best appreciate them, same goes for looks or financial status. Hence I'm shallow, meh.


Yes, that's it exactly! The downside of being with someone who is shallow is that you know they won't be there for you should life take a turn for the worse.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I always asked about this in the past, and worried too, as I knew attraction wasn't my choice. With ex-wife she was very young looking when I met her but even as she aged she was always beautiful to me. While I still loved her, her face, her eyes, her smile became associated with beauty, no matter how she aged. However, we weren't together that long. Once love was lost I couldn't see her in that way no longer. When I asked several more mature men about how is life when their wives' looks begin deteriorating, they all told me: "When someone is that good to you for so many years, you just wouldn't care".


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Oh well, I suppose I'm a bit dark. I'm just thinking of the person who loses all their hair to chemo, or maybe their breasts to cancer, or disfigurement because of an accident. I've seen all these things and more happen to the people I love, and it's just too sad when they get dumped for no longer being what they once were.
> 
> I guess that means that I value companionship and connection more than I value beauty -- especially as I head towards old age and my health and looks are so much less certain.





Personal said:


> Through our almost 21 years together we have weathered lots of things, yet our enjoyment of each other has remained pretty constant.
> 
> Within our first six months of dating we both survived a multi-casualty incident where a car ran down three people including my now wife ,which missed hitting me by no greater than the length of a thumb. My wife required plastic surgery to repair her face. She wears a small scar on her face as a reminder, had injured knees and partial memory loss just before and after being hit. The other older couple (my parents age) suffered spinal injuries, broken limbs and brain damage.
> 
> I almost died in our second year of marriage and spent around six months in and out of hospital as a consequence of it. A few years after that my wife was injured at work, which saw her spend six months off work. With lots of physiotherapy after they repaired her leg with bits of metal, which still sets off airport metal detectors.


On the other hand if I go bald. :wink2:


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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

@RandomDude
Did you believe them?



RandomDude said:


> When I asked several more mature men about how is life when their wives' looks begin deteriorating, they all told me: "When someone is that good to you for so many years, you just wouldn't care".




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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I always refused to date bald or balding men.
> 
> ...
> 
> I also refused to date cops because I think they're egotistical ****heads who think the rules don't apply to them.


😲

Would you tell me the city you live in and the color of your car please? 

😐


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

Personal said:


> My wife feels the same way about bald and balding men and has had no qualms telling me if I go bald she'll dump me.


How does she feel about cops? 🤔


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> I wasn't born with my wealth...


You seem to mention wealth a lot. 🤔 

Wealth is a relative term ... are you sure whatever it is that you're calling your wealth isn't merely your hangup instead of anyone else?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Stang197 said:


> Sad but very true. I guess that is why you always have to make sure you are improving.


I guess that's why I married a faithful man who would never break the promises made to each other.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Yes, that's it exactly! The downside of being with someone who is shallow is that you know they won't be there for you should life take a turn for the worse.


That's why I would never marry a shallow man. Nor would I ever leave my husband no matter how he ages or what happens to him. I can't believe that people say things like 'if you go bald I will leave you'. Appalling.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Haiku said:


> How does she feel about cops? 🤔


She thinks they're fine and also thinks some who aren't bald are quite handsome.

She's also known a few through her own work and me, since some of my friends who I met through work are or were.

Plus I have an uncle and a grandfather who were New South Wales policemen plus a great-uncle who was a Californian policeman.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Inquisitive1 said:


> @RandomDude
> Did you believe them?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


It makes sense, but I haven't had their experience as of yet.



Haiku said:


> You seem to mention wealth a lot. 🤔
> 
> Wealth is a relative term ... are you sure whatever it is that you're calling your wealth isn't merely your hangup instead of anyone else?


Annual income at 100K+ is the standard set by women in my city, while I was still working full-time I earned alot more than that, so yes, I consider myself rather well off compared to alot of other guys.

I don't like to boast, but you asked.


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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

Where do you live where that is even a criteria? No wonder your concerned. That sounds stressful. I appreciate financial security but I've never insisted that a guy be making six figures or anywhere near that. 



RandomDude said:


> Annual income at 100K+ is the standard set by women in my city, while I was still working full-time I earned alot more than that, so yes, I consider myself rather well off compared to alot of other guys.




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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Prices for homes in a safe/comfortable area close to the central business district is in the millions. Hence living costs are extortionately high, there's a large gap between rich and poor. They say the average wage is quite high, in the 80ks, the reality is the majority earn closer to fifty, and the very minority earn the high numbers. I was earning ~30k when I married ex-wife, 60k+ working 84 hour days after marriage and went from there (the 84 hour days being the catalyst of my eventual divorce, ironically). It was ex-wife who set the initial standards, hence in a position of success I have... trust issues... with women who places financial priorities first, knowing how money comes and goes.

My current GF is a great woman who supported me all the way as I drived a wedge in between me and my expanding business to focus on studying a completely new field, new passion. I simply need a woman like that, "for richer or for poorer". We're both "shallow" in that looks are priority for us, so we continue looking good for each other. I prefer to be appreciated this way, because I know it's a part of me, I never feel my wallet is a part of me, because I've seen how volatile fortunes are.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Annual income at 100K+ is the standard set by women in my city...
> 
> I don't like to boast, but you asked.


😂

There's some confusion. I didn't ask your income. I asked since you speak about "wealth" so often, if it isn't actually more your hang up and not so much others. 

Btw, a six figure income doesn't even approach wealthy, but that's just my opinion. As I said it's a relative term.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Wish it was just a personal hangup, as I mentioned the women in my city has already set the standard.

Yet like most men, I don't appreciate being judged by my wallet.


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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

Well, people don't like being judged by their looks either but that's life. Sometimes we're not tall enough to go on certain rides. 



RandomDude said:


> Wish it was just a personal hangup, as I mentioned the women in my city has already set the standard.
> 
> Yet like most men, I don't appreciate being judged by my wallet.




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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I also have very high standards, both looks-wise and personality-wise, making finding a suitable partner a time-consuming process yet it is a sacrifice I have been willing to make...although she was attractive she fell short of the moral standards I had - Thoughts?


I think this is the antithesis of shallow. A truly shallow person emphasizes outward appearance to the express exclusion of everything else. They'd mark physical attraction as the primary concern, and for reasons that often have nothing to do with sex.

To be perfectly blunt, I think a lot of people attack "shallowness" because they aren't attractive enough to attract the people they find attractive. Most people "settle" for people of like attractiveness. That's one of the reasons most of us take note of couples with huge gaps in attractiveness levels, because it's so unusual. Right now this story is going viral for a reason:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-sharing-beach-photo-fit-husband/376658001/

Interestingly enough, the assumption is that extraordinarily beautiful people will date other extraordinarily beautiful people. How often do we hear the phrase "what a beautiful couple!", with such glee and awe? In my experience some people tend to throw out the shallow label when they feel a person is punching above their weight, therefore breaking the rules, or its someone they want but the person doesn't want them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm really only sexually attracted to men who are 6'2" or taller (up to 6'5"...beyond that and there's too much of a size difference). While doing online dating, if I state my preference for tall men, I will get slammed for having that preference. But only by men shorter than my minimum, of course. Men who meet my height requirements will not slam my preference.

If a man has a preference for something that I'm not, I don't see what point there is in being butt hurt about it. It is just a preference, we all have them. Some of us can be attracted to those outside of our preferences, some of us can't. If a man prefers blondes to the point that he simply couldn't be attracted to me as a brunette, I wouldn't give him any grief about it nor feel discouraged by it. It really doesn't have anything to do with me, good or bad.

I was rejected once by an online dater because I was too short for him. 

I've also been rejected in various ways over the years for being:

too nice
not nice enough
too passive
too assertive
too skinny/not enough ass
boobs too big
boobs too small
too much of a hippy
not enough of a hippy
too liberal
not liberal enough!

the list goes on....

If we are rejected, we need to just gracefully allow the other person their preferences and assume we've dodged a bullet by finding out right off the bat that this person is not attracted to us in a way that is sustainable. We should want a strong mutual attraction. If it is not mutual or is too much on one side or the other, the relationship is probably doomed anyway.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm really only sexually attracted to men who are 6'2" or taller (up to 6'5"...beyond that and there's too much of a size difference). While doing online dating, if I state my preference for tall men, I will get slammed for having that preference. But only by men shorter than my minimum, of course. Men who meet my height requirements will not slam my preference.


Most of my fathers side of the family is 6'2'-6'5", with my father being short at 6'. Being 5'3" I have no problem with anyone having a height preference. It's not like I can help who I am attracted to, so it makes no sense for me to have an issue with someone else not helping who they are attracted to.

If you get slammed by short guys for not meeting your height preferences, it's fair to say you have dodged a bullet by not accepting them.



Faithful Wife said:


> If we are rejected, we need to just gracefully allow the other person their preferences and assume we've dodged a bullet by finding out right off the bat that this person is not attracted to us in a way that is sustainable. We should want a strong mutual attraction. If it is not mutual or is too much on one side or the other, the relationship is probably doomed anyway.


Yep, we would all be better off accepting that. I think it's silly to want to press on in a sexual relationship, with anyone who doesn't find you mutually attractive.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I only throw out the "shallow" label when the person is actually ..... shallow.

It has nothing to do with punching above my looks class or being rejected. I can observe that someone is shallow without ever having any sort of sexual attraction or desire to date in the first place. In fact, if I think a person is shallow, I absolutely *do not* want to be with them. 

I don't quite understand why no one else seems to think "shallow" means anything, except perhaps an insult projected by someone who is insecure or has been hurt. :scratchhead:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

wild jade said:


> I don't quite understand why no one else seems to think "shallow" means anything, except perhaps an insult projected by someone who is insecure or has been hurt. :scratchhead:


I don't see anyone suggesting all claims of shallowness are rooting in insecurity. 

Of course real, true shallowness exists. Who is suggesting otherwise?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> I only throw out the "shallow" label when the person is actually ..... shallow.
> 
> It has nothing to do with punching above my looks class or being rejected. I can observe that someone is shallow without ever having any sort of sexual attraction or desire to date in the first place. In fact, if I think a person is shallow, I absolutely *do not* want to be with them.
> 
> I don't quite understand why no one else seems to think "shallow" means anything, except perhaps an insult projected by someone who is insecure or has been hurt. :scratchhead:


No, sorry...I didn't mean to imply there is no real shallowness. I just thought the discussion was basically about how simply having physical preferences in what we are attracted to, in itself, doesn't make us shallow.

I will say though that I don't know personally anyone who comes across as shallow, or at least I have no friends in that category, because I just wouldn't want to be around that at all.

I wonder if those who are truly shallow kind of know that they are and hide it? Because it isn't something that people tend to express very often.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Personal said:


> Most of my fathers side of the family is 6'2'-6'5", with my father being short at 6'. Being 5'3" I have no problem with anyone having a height preference. It's not like I can help who I am attracted to, so it makes no sense for me to have an issue with someone else not helping who they are attracted to.
> 
> If you get slammed by short guys for not meeting your height preferences, it's fair to say you have dodged a bullet by not accepting them.


Yes, this only happens at online dating sites. Otherwise, I'm not really discussing my preferences with people so it doesn't really come up. It is difficult to ever say to anyone "I'm not attracted to you", so I usually just say "I don't think we are a match". Though it was kind of funny to hear the guy reject me for being too short, he did actually say it straight up. 

I also dated a guy who was 6'3", 215 (I am 5'4", 120) and at first I thought we were both attracted to each other fairly equally, but later I found out he is actually most attracted to women who weigh less than 100 pounds. I could not get away from him fast enough after that! I did not ever mention it, and I did not think he was shallow...but I just couldn't bring myself to be intimate with him when his preference was for something I could and would never be. I was glad I found this out early and could move on.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> Most of my fathers side of the family is 6'2'-6'5", with my father being short at 6'. Being 5'3" I have no problem with anyone having a height preference. It's not like I can help who I am attracted to, so it makes no sense for me to have an issue with someone else not helping who they are attracted to.
> 
> If you get slammed by short guys for not meeting your height preferences, it's fair to say you have dodged a bullet by not accepting them.
> 
> ...


As a shorter guy (5'7"), I've been rejected for my height before - but never felt insulted by it. Not outwardly, anyway. Like any kind of rejection that encompasses something you can't do anything about, it DOES hurt, especially when it's purely cosmetic.

My ex wife was 4'11 1/2, and I was the shortest guy she'd ever dated, and made a point to tell me this early on. Like, there's almost an 8" height difference here, lady! Sorry?

My current wife is the exact same height as me, and she cracks short jokes at me all the time (but they're usually funny!). But I keep telling her, they don't make sense, because she's the same height! Lol, I can't reach the top cupboard! Technically she's tall for a woman, but she can't reach the top cupboard, either, so... hahahaha? Neither of us can reach up there, but it's funnier because I can't? 

At the end of the day, I think it's silly, but I AM biased  But I also recognize that not every woman who's ever had interest in me has met my "standards", either.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@alexm I've been rejected a few times and my height has never been mentioned in those instances, although I wouldn't be surprised if that was a reason on some of those occasions.

My wife is 5'7", my ex-wife is 5'6" and the tallest woman I have been with was around 6'2" (she has now been married twice to guys who are short like me). Exempting three women, most of the woman I have been with have been taller than me (I prefer taller women).

Until my wife asked me out, she had never dated any guy shorter than 6' tall. She still thinks it's funny that she's taller than me. She went for me because she thought I was rather handsome and despite my height she liked my personality and felt/feels I am like no man she has ever met before.

For a time my wife didn't wear footwear with much of a heel because of our height disparity, fortunately she got over that and does now wear boots and shoes with larger heels.

My wife has always been able to reach our top cupboards, so she comes in handy when I can't reach.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Haha from what I've seen, the shorter the lady, the taller they want their men!  Think it's natural selection and nature's way of equilibrium maybe? 

I like height around my level, not too tall or too short, similar height allows for better sex positions! But GF is short at 5'4", but she has so many other great qualities it's no longer a minus point. Speaking of natural selection I also seem to get slightly turned off with glasses, it's more a minor thing but kinda -0.5 points there - plus or minus depending on personality, but I always thought it's due to 20/20 vision, and I want my offspring to have the same. My daughter has sharp eyes just like her mummy and daddy. Current girlfriend too, and we joked about it before because she finds me attractive and I like to be humble. When she calls me handsome I tell her that she needs glasses, and when she said her vision is 20/20 I said she's wearing beer goggles  lol


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Personal said:


> @alexm I've been rejected a few times and my height has never been mentioned in those instances, although I wouldn't be surprised if that was a reason on some of those occasions.
> 
> My wife is 5'7", my ex-wife is 5'6" and the tallest woman I have been with was around 6'2" (she has now been married twice to guys who are short like me). Exempting three women, most of the woman I have been with have been taller than me (I prefer taller women).
> 
> ...


Although my preference is for tall men, I've known a few shorter men in my life that I could definitely imagine being on the arm of. When I imagined being with them with my heels on, it felt very sexy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> At the end of the day, I think it's silly, but I AM biased  But I also recognize that not every woman who's ever had interest in me has met my "standards", either.


Right, and that's really the bottom line. People will be attracted to us who we are not attracted to. We will be attracted to others who are not attracted to us.

But there will always be people who we feel mutual attraction with, also. So the ones where mutual attraction does not exist between the two, there's no harm done. The lack of mutual attraction is telling us not to proceed, actually, so it is helpful. We should always accept nature's design in this sense. Mutual attraction is undeniable and it is the best indicator of continued attraction in the long term.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> No, sorry...I didn't mean to imply there is no real shallowness. I just thought the discussion was basically about how simply having physical preferences in what we are attracted to, in itself, doesn't make us shallow.
> 
> I will say though that I don't know personally anyone who comes across as shallow, or at least I have no friends in that category, because I just wouldn't want to be around that at all.
> 
> I wonder if those who are truly shallow kind of know that they are and hide it? Because it isn't something that people tend to express very often.


I think there's a line there. Yes, we all have our physical preferences of what we are attracted to, and I agree that "preference" isn't itself shallow. But honestly, I think that if some guy really can't possibly see past brown hair, or some woman can't possibly be attracted to anyone less than 6', well, it's actually a decent sign they aren't looking too deep. Either that, or they aren't very compromising. 

Absolutely, we shouldn't let it bother us if someone really shallow, no more than anyone should let any rejection bother them. Life goes on. 

I don't have any shallow friends either, but I've observed quite a lot of shallow, here and there, throughout my wanderings. I don't think noticing someone's shallowness means that you are ugly, trying to date people out of your "class", or just butt hurt about something stupid. (Not saying you think this, just that it seems to be the theme of this thread.)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Although my preference is for tall men, I've known a few shorter men in my life that I could definitely imagine being on the arm of. When I imagined being with them with my heels on, it felt very sexy.


Here's irony for you - at 5'7", I've never imagined myself with a woman taller than me - for the same reasons you're not attracted to men under 6'2" or whatever your threshold is. It's not that I don't think tall women are sexy, it's just that I have an innate attraction to shorter women. No rhyme or reason that I can see. Definitely not a subconscious dominant thing (trust me, I've thought about that). I also have a preference for small boobs, and there's no particular reason for that that I've figured out yet, either. It is what it is.

That said, I've never actually lived by that rule, either... Although almost all women I've dated/hung with/married have been shorter, none of them have fit my preferences to a T, either. In other words, my preferences have never stopped me.

If there was a connection there, I never let physical attributes stop me.

I think what it all comes down to, like it or not, is that if one is successful in finding dates/FWB/partners/whatever by being physically picky - more power to you.

I don't think @faithfulwife has any trouble getting laid, so why not be choosy when it comes to that?

Others, like myself, are not quite that forward, or weren't "on the prowl" when I was single. If I held out for my ideal physical specimen, I'd have never gotten laid. Doesn't mean I slept with every woman that came my way - quite the opposite - I WAS choosy, but more in the sense of "do I like this person or not? Is there a connection?" as opposed to "she's not this or that, physically".

I've mentioned this here before, but the hottest sexual encounter I ever had was with a woman who was built like a rugby player (she did actually play, lol). She just exuded this sexuality in and out of the bedroom. She didn't check off any of my boxes, physically, but man was I glad to have ignored those.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

My first husband was 5'4" (I am 5'3") and my second husband is 6'3". I like men of all heights.

I win, we can turn the internet off now.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> I think there's a line there. Yes, we all have our physical preferences of what we are attracted to, and I agree that "preference" isn't itself shallow. But honestly, I think that if some guy really can't possibly see past brown hair, or some woman can't possibly be attracted to anyone less than 6', well, it's actually a decent sign they aren't looking too deep. Either that, or they aren't very compromising.
> 
> *That's the thing, not everybody feels they have to look too deep. All depends on what one is looking for, I guess. I hate to use FW as an example of this, but it's prescient - she's not looking for a husband, or even really someone to live with. She's looking for (and correct me if I'm wrong, FW) a sexual connection primarily, with the rest being somewhat secondary (but nonetheless important). And that's absolutely okay.*
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> I think there's a line there. Yes, we all have our physical preferences of what we are attracted to, and I agree that "preference" isn't itself shallow. But honestly, I think that if some guy really can't possibly see past brown hair, or some woman can't possibly be attracted to anyone less than 6', well, it's actually a decent sign they aren't looking too deep. Either that, or they aren't very compromising.


I guess I'm shallow, then. I don't know. To me it doesn't feel unusual to want to be strongly attracted to someone before proceeding into a romantic or sexual relationship, but maybe it is. For myself I just know that my body only gets aroused by certain people. I've narrowed down who those people are and realized it has to do with certain physical attributes. I don't want to waste any man's time by trying to date him if he is shorter, since I know that I will most likely not feel sexual arousal for him. I'm bisexual, so this does apply to women, too. Only certain ones make me feel physical arousal.

However, even if someone does have those attributes that turn me on, if they are an idiot, an asshat, or just a jerk...they will not turn me on anyway. It takes more than just the physical attributes! But the attributes have to be there to begin with.

This just happened to me this week through online dating....

I saw a guy's profile who was nice looking generally, but he was also 6'5" so my heart started beating faster when I read that.  His description was good, age was appropriate, everything else seemed ok. But to be completely honest, I was mostly interested in how tall he is...because that is the only objective measure I really have in a profile...all their description words could be fake or lies (have encountered this many times), their pictures may be old and they may look nothing like that anymore (have encountered this too), but their height typically isn't going to change unless they actually lied on the profile, but I could tell by his pictures with other people and other objects around him that he was not lying.

On this profile of mine, I have only one picture and it is not of my face. It gives just a hint of a decently proportioned woman and that's it. 

I messaged the guy, we went back and forth a few times, and then he gave me his number so I could text him some pictures of my face and the rest of me (this is my usual way of doing it). We texted a few times to make sure I had the right number, then I sent him 2 pictures of my face.

I am brunette, but I also have some pink in my hair. It is quite a bold look, but where I live it is not unusual at all. I actually love my hair! Lots of people do as well, I get compliments on it constantly. And the men I've dated and my ex-h all love it, think it is youthful and sexy, etc.

When I sent the pics I said "you can't miss me, I have pink hair!" 

After he got them, he sent back just a "colon and parenthesis" smiley, and then after a few minutes he said "gotta step into a meeting, will chat later".

And then I never heard anything from him again. So....he either didn't like my hair, or he didn't like my face. Whichever one it was, I am not hurt or dissed about it at all. Why would I be? He owes me nothing, least of all does he owe me attraction toward me. And since all I really knew about him was that I was attracted to his height, I mean, what can I say?

In the beginning, all you have to go on is attraction, especially through online dating. 

When you say "or some woman can't possibly be attracted to anyone less than 6', well, it's actually a decent sign they aren't looking too deep", how are we supposed to "look deep" into someone we literally don't know? It would be different if we met someone first, then developed an attraction for them based on who they are as well as how they appear...but you simply can't do that in this medium.

As far as compromise....I have tried that over and over. What happens is that I lose sexual attraction eventually for someone if I was not strongly sexually attracted to the way they look initially. If I liked them a lot and became attracted to them even though they didn't punch all my buttons, and then became sexual with them, my passion for them would just poof into thin air and I couldn't get it back. No matter how nice they were, no matter how much I liked them. 

Maybe my body doesn't work like other people's? If you can get it up for someone you love and care for but are not physically attracted to, then I'd say that is awesome and you have a much wider range of people you could potentially have a good romantic and sex life with. For me, I've just learned through experience that only certain people will make my body work that way. I can't and won't fake being aroused for someone, it wouldn't be fair to do that anyway. So my only option, I feel, is to listen to what my body is telling me.

And just one more time....they also have to be a kind and decent person! I'm quickly turned off by azzholes.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@alexm said: "That's the thing, not everybody feels they have to look too deep. All depends on what one is looking for, I guess. I hate to use FW as an example of this, but it's prescient - she's not looking for a husband, or even really someone to live with. She's looking for (and correct me if I'm wrong, FW) a sexual connection primarily, with the rest being somewhat secondary (but nonetheless important). And that's absolutely okay."

This is true, for now...but I will eventually be looking for a life partner again. And I will be looking very deep when I am ready for that. They will not only have to be physically and sexually attractive to me, but they will also have to be kind, loving, thoughtful, decent, and filled with integrity. And they will also have to feel that strong attraction to me that I feel for them. I am also kind, loving, thoughtful, etc. So I can give as good as I get.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Yet it does puzzle me how I remain in the minority, *who accepts the importance of physical attraction in a relationship*. I also have very high standards, both looks-wise and personality-wise, making finding a suitable partner a time-consuming process yet it is a sacrifice I have been willing to make. My current girlfriend now hits all my buttons and personally I'm thankful I didn't compromise. I have compromised in the past, and although she was attractive she fell short of the moral standards I had - blocking any ability of mine to become emotionally attached leading to me feeling that I was leading her on - and I was.
> 
> Thoughts?


Physical attraction is listed as a top 10 need by many people in marriage, according to His Needs, Her Needs. I see nothing wrong with that, as I've read that studies on dating sites show that your profile pic is what gets you the first date.

To me, shallow would be if you discard someone after years of marriage because they grow older, or gain weight after having a baby, or any other physical change that leads you to throw away a meaningful relationship. At that point, it really is ALL about how someone looks as opposed to any other quality. I do think that in the case of gaining weight, a spouse should make every effort possible to lose it if their spouse finds it unattractive, similar to making an effort to dress well and perform grooming to remain attractive to your spouse. 

I think it is shallow when looks are the ONLY quality you look for in a person, as opposed to being one of several top considerations. We've all known attractive mean girls and egotistical ripped Biffs. There's got to be more substance for a LTR, IMO.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Just want to relate a moment of shallowness that I had to deal with when I was single.

I received an unexpected phone call from a guy who said that he was a doctor and worked at the same hospital as my cousin. I wasn't given a heads for this but still meeting in a well lit cafe was not beyond me.

Just as I was saying that I was free next Tuesday evening, he asked me what what my height and how much do I weigh. I knew that was no win question to answer. I have never been model thin and as this was 1991, a long time before society started lauding big butts and the curvy woman.

H even told me that if I told him he would tell me. I know what that means. And the image that passed my eyes was me sitting at a cafe waiting who never shows up.

I mentioned this to a guy friend who agreed with me that that was just crazy. He's a medical doctor so he is privy to many women's vital statistics which would remind him that height and weight are not the whole story.

I told him that I needed to check my calendar for the best date. He did leave on more message and after that I never heard from him again.

More than 25 years on, I still don't regret my decision. 

And that's the kind of shallowness that even if I did fit within his paremeters -- whatever they were -- makes you wonder what other anti social standards and ways doing things did he have?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess I'm shallow, then. I don't know. To me it doesn't feel unusual to want to be strongly attracted to someone before proceeding into a romantic or sexual relationship, but maybe it is. For myself I just know that my body only gets aroused by certain people. I've narrowed down who those people are and realized it has to do with certain physical attributes. I don't want to waste any man's time by trying to date him if he is shorter, since I know that I will most likely not feel sexual arousal for him. I'm bisexual, so this does apply to women, too. Only certain ones make me feel physical arousal.


I'm pretty sure, that's not what I was saying. I think it's perfectly normal to want to be attracted to someone before dating them, and perfectly normal to be attracted to certain specific attributes. Although height isn't one of my things, I too have plenty of preferences. 

All I'm saying is that there is a line somewhere in there. We all have preferences, and we all make choices based on those preferences, but when you only look at surfaces, and these mean more than anything else ... that's shallow. And while you say here that taller is one of your preferences, you also said in an earlier post, there've been shorter men that you've been attracted to, and as far as I can see made it pretty durn clear that lots of factors go into your decisions 

Is dude shallow for rejecting you because of your pink hair? Maybe. But also maybe he took it as a signal of a deeper incompatibility. If he was super-conservative, for example, he might have thought it a sign of a political or social incompatibility. 

I'm not saying we need to rush to judge people as shallow or anything, just that shallow people have something in common and basically it's that they don't (or maybe even can't) look past the surface.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> All I'm saying is that there is a line somewhere in there. We all have preferences, and we all make choices based on those preferences, but when you only look at surfaces, and these mean more than anything else ... that's shallow. And while you say here that taller is one of your preferences, you also said in an earlier post, there've been shorter men that you've been attracted to, and as far as I can see made it pretty durn clear that lots of factors go into your decisions


Yeah, this.

There is definitely a line, and I think it's a fairly thin one, at that.

So while FW has said she only really considers dating/sleeping with taller men, she has been attracted to shorter men, then later on says that she knows in her heart that being with a shorter guy wouldn't keep her attraction level up for very long, regardless of how great everything else is.

On one hand, you can't help what you find attractive. On the other, there's something to be said about looking past one thing or another from time to time and seeing beyond A, B or C.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I'm shallow, then. I don't know. To me it doesn't feel unusual to want to be strongly attracted to someone before proceeding into a romantic or sexual relationship, but maybe it is. For myself I just know that my body only gets aroused by certain people. I've narrowed down who those people are and realized it has to do with certain physical attributes. I don't want to waste any man's time by trying to date him if he is shorter, since I know that I will most likely not feel sexual arousal for him. I'm bisexual, so this does apply to women, too. Only certain ones make me feel physical arousal.
> ...


I don't feel shallow, but I'm just being open about my feelings concerning my own preferences. I realize others could take this as shallow, but I'm not worried about that. People I have been in relationships with know I'm not, and that the things they brought to the table beyond their appearance are very important to me as well. 

The guy who didn't respond after getting my pictures, I didn't take it personally at all. Even if he just didn't like my face. That's ok! I don't want to waste anyone's time, mine or theirs. Any reason that they have for not being attracted to me is a valid reason. That alone doesn't make them shallow. He could be shallow, I'll never know. All I know is that he wasn't interested and that's fine.

Yes I've been attracted to people who don't meet my preferences and could imagine being with them. However, I no longer would even try at this time in my life, because every time I've done that (gotten involved with someone who I was attracted to but didn't meet my basic preferences) I ended up not being attracted to them in the long run.

Sex and mutual sexual attraction is very important to me. So now I just trust my body and what it tells me about how arousing a certain person is to me.

The people I've been most attracted to and stayed attracted to over time have not necessarily been people that others would consider some hunky stud muffin. Some of my friends have felt they were attractive but some thought I was crazy. Individual tastes vary so much! None of my friends would consider me shallow and many of them have always felt I've been dating down, not equivalent to me. That doesn't bother me either. They don't feel aroused by my type of guy, I usually don't feel it for theirs either.

I have a cousin who is gorgeous. Over the years she has met many of my friends and lovers. It's so interesting to hear what they say about her. Some have said she's so hot, and others have said she's not at all. The same has happened when I've met her friends and lovers. We both feel attractive but we obviously attract completely different types. We have never been attracted to each other's men either. It's just interesting to observe.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> The people I've been most attracted to and stayed attracted to over time have not necessarily been people that others would consider some hunky stud muffin. Some of my friends have felt they were attractive but some thought I was crazy. Individual tastes vary so much! None of my friends would consider me shallow and many of them have always felt I've been dating down, not equivalent to me. That doesn't bother me either. They don't feel aroused by my type of guy, I usually don't feel it for theirs either.


Exactly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Ironic I still get called shallow when I don't find a particular type of woman attractive yet apparently "date down" with someone I'm actually attracted to. Honestly I think this "universal beauty standard" is more of a problem than people like me being "shallow"! Bah!

I also like it when my girlfriend finds me attractive, and I find it great that she's "shallow" enough to have physical preferences that I can match. I have no illusions, I'm not everyone's cup of tea and vice versa. I'd rather her than some woman who isn't "shallow" and goes for me yet can't appreciate the full package. Forget it!!!

The world needs to be more "shallow"!!!!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> The world needs to be more "shallow"!!!!


I have a co-worker who only dates one type of guy. Rich Adonis men. That is her "preference". All the guys she goes out with have lots of money and are absolutely gorgeous. As @Faithful Wife said, that's what her body tells her to do. Other guys don't cut it for her. 

Her story, though, is a string of heartbreak and drama. She was left at the altar once, had another guy play all sorts of push-pull mind games with her, driving her crazy, yet another guy who constantly insulted her, and on and on. The number of times that woman is in tears over some dude that's treated her badly .... well too numerous to count. Oh, but they are all so incredibly beautiful. And rich. And she can't see past that.

I think she could benefit from a whole lot less "shallow".


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

wild jade said:


> I have a co-worker who only dates one type of guy. Rich Adonis men. That is her "preference". All the guys she goes out with have lots of money and are absolutely gorgeous. As @Faithful Wife said, that's what her body tells her to do. Other guys don't cut it for her.
> 
> Her story, though, is a string of heartbreak and drama. She was left at the altar once, had another guy play all sorts of push-pull mind games with her, driving her crazy, yet another guy who constantly insulted her, and on and on. The number of times that woman is in tears over some dude that's treated her badly .... well too numerous to count. Oh, but they are all so incredibly beautiful. And rich. And she can't see past that.
> 
> *I think she could benefit from a whole lot less "shallow"*.


Sounds like she could benefit from better boundaries.

Somebody's dating and marrying those rich men.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Sounds like she could benefit from better boundaries.
> 
> Somebody's dating and marrying those rich men.


Doesn't necessarily mean they're particularly desirable partners. A lot of people put up with a lot of crap.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Doesn't necessarily mean they're particularly desirable partners. A lot of people put up with a lot of crap.


Especially when money is on the line.


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