# Thread Jack - Marital Counseling and Infidelity



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

a_new_me said:


> So, can someone tell me please what this SI thing/place is that everyone keeps mentioning?
> 
> And a little incite on the MCs are a bit tough on the wounded spouse.
> 
> ...





BluesPower said:


> This is ridiculous. Absolutely Ridiculous.
> 
> Sorry, if you cheated it does not work like this, this is cheater speak.
> 
> ...





a_new_me said:


> Sorry, it was not “cheater speak”.
> 
> I a woman that cheats on the man that beats the crap out of her on a daily basis a “scum bag” because she needed something or anything to help her get out of the relationship?
> 
> ...





sokillme said:


> No but she is not absolved from her wrong. I should add that I personally believe that once someone cheats the marriage contract is broken so I don't think it's cheating or a revenge affair. There is no such thing as a revenge affair because there is no marriage to revenge anymore. Though I would always say that it's a strategic mistake, and why I say that is suppose the person you decide to get "revenge" with could be your next relationship, well then you have started that relationship under the most selfish and destructive of circumstances.
> 
> But assuming we are not talking about that then cheating is on the cheater because they made the choice to handle a bad situation in an immoral way when there were other avenues to fix their issues going so far as to divorce. (Which is why people who are stanch opponents against divorce are often misguided, IMO) Do I think there are different levels of immorality in cheating depending on the situation. Of course. But bad behavior by someone doesn't justify bad behavior as a response to it. It also really doesn't fix the issue at all!
> 
> ...





Music_Man said:


> @a_new_me
> 
> You've given some extreme examples here. In the case of the OP, I don't believe this situation was quite as extreme, but I do get what you're saying. It doesn't mean that I agree with it 100%.
> 
> ...





wilson said:


> Two different aspects are being lumped together:
> 
> 1. The state of the relationship
> 2. How each person chooses to deal with the state of the relationship
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

If this is the new policy to move thread jacks to their own thread I for want to say I LIKE IT!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> If this is the new policy to move thread jacks to their own thread I for want to say I LIKE IT!


Not a new policy but I normally delete thread jacks and call it a day. I hope this will serve as an example to others to PLEASE take the thread jack discussions to a new thread. I encourage it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Lila said:


> Not a new policy but I normally delete thread jacks and call it a day. I hope this will serve as an example to others to PLEASE take the thread jack discussions to a new thread. I encourage it.


Yeah, it would be mighty convenient for those of us in the peanut gallery, but if institutionalized, I'm sure it would become a full time job for a whole fleet of moderators. 

Very cool, but probably not particularly practical.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Sorry about starting that.
I just think that a little compassion and understanding goes a long way and that the OP was taking more blame for the entire situation that she is going through and I wish her the best and hope that the good and positive advice that she receives here helps her and her husband sort everything out so that they can live happy and productive lives. 


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@a_new_me you are free to post your thoughts on the subject here.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> Not a new policy but I normally delete thread jacks and call it a day. I hope this will serve as an example to others to PLEASE take the thread jack discussions to a new thread. I encourage it.


Wait did you just thread jack this new thread created as a result of thread jacking?

(Ducks)

Just kiddin’!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

a_new_me said:


> This does not make people “scum bags”, it makes them human and placing the blame entirely on the cheater is blame shifting on the part of the spouse that was cheated on.
> In order for a reconciliation to be successful,
> both parties need to work to solve the root issues. Putting the blame entirely on one person is abusive.


Are you serious with this?!?!?! You are the poster child for victim blaming. The cheater is solely to blame; it was their choice, their character flaw. Sounds to me like you are trying trying to justify something YOU did.

Edit: These were the OPs words not Lila. Sorry for the confusion


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Where have we all previosly heard, "Look what you made me do!"?


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Are you serious with this?!?!?! You are the poster child for victim blaming. The cheater is solely to blame; it was their choice, their character flaw. Sounds to me like you are trying trying to justify something YOU did.
> 
> Edit: These were the OPs words not Lila. Sorry for the confusion




Yes, I am serious.

I have worked and known a lot of women that were in bad situations with their partners. A lot of these partners used a lot of emotional and psychological abuse on these women to the points where their heads were so messed up that they did not know what to do...and they turned to their basic instincts so that they could get something...anything that could get them either out of the situation or help them build up their self esteem enough so they had the inner strength to deal with things. Unfortunately, cheating was part of that.

I am not the poster child for victim blaming.

All I was saying is that it is, in a lot of cases, not the sole responsibility of the cheater for the cheating to have occurred.

And please, unless you are sleeping in my bed, or know me personally or are spying on my every move, please do not say that it sounds to you that I am trying to justify something that I did.

All I was doing was trying to be supportive to the OP, and turning that around on me because I have a different opinion than you is not a way to have a productive discussion and communicate effectively. 

Thank you and have a wonderful day


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

a_new_me said:


> All I was saying is that it is, in a lot of cases, not the sole responsibility of the cheater for the cheating to have occurred.


The cheater is ALWAYS responsible for their choices and their actions! And it is victim blaming. Basically, you are saying that it is my fault that my STBXW had a threesome with her coworker? GTFO


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Marduk said:


> Wait did you just thread jack this new thread created as a result of thread jacking?
> 
> (Ducks)
> 
> Just kiddin’!


See, he's got his hand up in that avatar to try to deflect Lila's swing... 


> > >


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

a_new_me said:


> Yes, I am serious.
> 
> I have worked and known a lot of women that were in bad situations with their partners. A lot of these partners used a lot of emotional and psychological abuse on these women to the points where their heads were so messed up that they did not know what to do...and they turned to their basic instincts so that they could get something...anything that could get them either out of the situation or help them build up their self esteem enough so they had the inner strength to deal with things. Unfortunately, cheating was part of that.
> 
> ...


It may not be solely the cheater who is responsible for having contributed to an unhappy marriage.... but as for actually going forward and stepping out of said marriage, yes, that is most definitely 100% on the cheater. No way around it.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It may not be solely the cheater who is responsible for having contributed to an unhappy marriage.... but as for actually going forward and stepping out of said marriage, yes, that is most definitely 100% on the cheater. No way around it.




True.

However, everyone deals with their hurt and pain in different ways. We all grow and change as our time passes. Sometimes, people get stuck. Their lives are so intertwined that they do not even know where to start untangling that knot that developed. There are always so many what ifs, ands or buts.

I just believe that we all need to take the time to look at a situation as a whole before we villanize someone and place the entirety of the blame on them, because when you look in, there is always a lot more at play.

Saying a cheater is entirely at fault negates everything else that surrounds them and minimizes it and paints everyone with the same brush. most often the truth is behind closed doors.

People need to be more self aware and accept their responsibility in situations so that they can grow, or they can completely blame the other person for everything and be bitter and accomplish no true healing. 


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

a_new_me said:


> However, everyone deals with their hurt and pain in different ways. We all grow and change as our time passes. Sometimes, people get stuck. Their lives are so intertwined that they do not even know where to start untangling that knot that developed. There are always so many what ifs, ands or buts.


Ahhh ... I don’t think so.
A person has a lot of other options to deal with issues in their marriages and lives other than banging someone who isn’t their spouse. The act of crossing the line is a character flaw.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It may not be solely the cheater who is responsible for having contributed to an unhappy marriage.... but as for actually going forward and stepping out of said marriage, yes, that is most definitely 100% on the cheater. No way around it.


Is there a TAM-approved manner of stepping outside the bounds of marriage for sex, prior to actually getting divorced? If the wife is fed up with a husband’s desire for sex, it simply isn’t going to happen, yet she wants to stay married... and tells the husband that, If we’d is so important to him, go find someone to have sex with... is that still cheating if he takes her up on that? What if he does but doesn’t tell her. Still cheating?

I am NOT asking for a friend. Yet I’ve had such words spoken to me. In my mind, it would have been cheating. In her mind, maybe not. 

So is it black and white? I prefer the answer to be yes.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Even if you say that the cheater had all these issues, and they cheated because that's all they could do at the time.... which is a weird thing to say, because they could do less...like, not cheat. But even if you say that's all that they could do for whatever reasons..... all of the blame of cheating still lies in their lap. Period. 

Being a crappy spouse, a depressed spouse, an obese spouse, an abusive spouse.....whatever the case may be, is not an excuse for cheating. It's a good excuse for divorce, but not cheating. The crappy, depressed, obese, abusive spouse IS the victim. They had a bad marriage, there are tons of them. So get divorced. 

If an abusive spouse blames the victim ..."look what you made me do", then a cheating spouse who blames the other is doing the same thing. It IS victim blaming. 

I think....if you cheat, whether you think it is justified or not, whether the spouse deserved it or not, even if the spouse cheated on you, YOU are the only one who gets to own that. You have whatever consequences that come your way. 

A popular phrase in a house of teen and pre-teen grandkids here, is "own your own ****".


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

a_new_me said:


> Yes, I am serious.
> 
> I have worked and known a lot of women that were in bad situations with their partners. A lot of these partners used a lot of emotional and psychological abuse on these women to the points where their heads were so messed up that they did not know what to do...and they turned to their basic instincts so that they could get something...anything that could get them either out of the situation or help them build up their self esteem enough so they had the inner strength to deal with things. Unfortunately, cheating was part of that.
> 
> ...


I know a lot of people who were cheated on even though they were lovely people who really loved their spouse. Sadly they married someone who had no moral values or integrity. Some of the cheaters even said that it wasn't because of their spouses they cheated, it was because they choose to. One said that the opportunity came up and he took it. :frown2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> Is there a TAM-approved manner of stepping outside the bounds of marriage for sex, prior to actually getting divorced? If the wife is fed up with a husband’s desire for sex, it simply isn’t going to happen, yet she wants to stay married... and tells the husband that, If we’d is so important to him, go find someone to have sex with... is that still cheating if he takes her up on that? What if he does but doesn’t tell her. Still cheating?
> 
> I am NOT asking for a friend. Yet I’ve had such words spoken to me. In my mind, it would have been cheating. In her mind, maybe not.
> 
> So is it black and white? I prefer the answer to be yes.


Not sure if its cheating if done with the agreement of the spouse, but its still adultery and unfaithfulness.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

a_new_me said:


> True.
> 
> However, everyone deals with their hurt and pain in different ways. We all grow and change as our time passes. Sometimes, people get stuck. Their lives are so intertwined that they do not even know where to start untangling that knot that developed. There are always so many what ifs, ands or buts.
> 
> ...


yet many are in not so good marriages yet don't cheat.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> Is there a TAM-approved manner of stepping outside the bounds of marriage for sex, prior to actually getting divorced? If the wife is fed up with a husband’s desire for sex, it simply isn’t going to happen, yet she wants to stay married... and tells the husband that, If we’d is so important to him, go find someone to have sex with... is that still cheating if he takes her up on that? What if he does but doesn’t tell her. Still cheating?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




To be honest, in my opinion, it is perspective and communication. 

There are a LOT of women out there, fighting with menopause, that give their permission to their husbands to go outside of the marriage. The same applies to men fighting with ED. In these situations, They are going through medical issues, however they understand the basic needs of their partners, and would prefer that their spouse have a ‘side piece’ to get those needs met instead of ruining what is otherwise a wonderful relationship. They develop boundaries and an understanding so that they can protect their unit while allowing their partners the ability to have their needs met.
Stupid example, but all I can think up right now. He likes to golf. I like to golf too, but I cannot because I have diabetic ulcers on my feet and cannot put pressure on them. We use to golf together all the time. I can see how much it is hurting him not to be able to golf anymore, but we have been golf partners for years so he stopped, even though it is really causing him a lot of pain and frustration. I see his pain and frustration and tell him that it is okay if he gets another golf partner while my foot slowly heals as long as we follow these rules of the game.

The same thing applies to people with cancer and other ailments. 

I am sorry if how I am trying to relate these things seem ‘stupid’, but I am trying to contextualize so that people can ‘relate’.

The biggest ‘skeleton in the closet’ here is communication, empathy and maturity.

All behaviours have consequences, however if there is a solid foundation of communication, these consequences will not be negative. If there is a solid foundation, a massive amount of relationships would not be as they are. If there was a solid foundation, the house would not fall apart.
Do not be angry at a house that collapses when it did not have a solid foundation to sit on. 


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

a_new_me said:


> Yes, I am serious.
> 
> I have worked and known a lot of women that were in bad situations with their partners. A lot of these partners used a lot of emotional and psychological abuse on these women to the points where their heads were so messed up that they did not know what to do...and they turned to their basic instincts so that they could get something...anything that could get them either out of the situation or help them build up their self esteem enough so they had the inner strength to deal with things. Unfortunately, cheating was part of that.
> 
> ...


Or if you just hadn't mouthed off at me and called me that name I wouldn't have hit you.
If you just hadn't been such a tease I wouldn't have rapped you. 
If you just wouldn't have slept with that other man I wouldn't have killed you. 

See how that works? Or should I say how that doesn't work. 

One form of abuse doesn't justify any other kind of abuse. I suspect in the examples I just wrote above you wouldn't be so quick to blame the victim as you do here. 

Let me ask you is it OK for a husband to cheat on his wife if she withholds sex or is it only women who are allowed to cheat when their spouses treat them poorly? 

Yes these marriages were bad and the spouse was bad too but that doesn't justify abusive behavior, abusive behavior is always the responsibility of those committing the abuse.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

a_new_me said:


> Yes, I am serious.
> 
> I have worked and known a lot of women that were in bad situations with their partners. A lot of these partners used a lot of emotional and psychological abuse on these women to the points where their heads were so messed up that they did not know what to do...and they turned to their basic instincts so that they could get something...anything that could get them either out of the situation or help them build up their self esteem enough so they had the inner strength to deal with things. Unfortunately, cheating was part of that.
> 
> ...


I am a woman who has lived with a man who has been emotionally unavailable for 29 years, had an affair, used porn secretly, gaslit, triangulated with my children, been extremely stubborn, and been physically absent 70% of the time during the last 10 years. You can't imagine how frustrated, angry, and lonely I have been.

I have seriously contemplated divorce, but have never considered cheating. Don't think it is because I could not get a man, because I know I could, being attractive, fit, desireable and intelligent. I don't think about cheating because it is not an option for me while I am still married. To not cheat is a DECISION I make every day.

Take your blithering and giving women excuses to cheat somewhere else. It won't pass inspection here.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> Is there a TAM-approved manner of stepping outside the bounds of marriage for sex, prior to actually getting divorced? If the wife is fed up with a husband’s desire for sex, it simply isn’t going to happen, yet she wants to stay married... and tells the husband that, If we’d is so important to him, go find someone to have sex with... is that still cheating if he takes her up on that? What if he does but doesn’t tell her. Still cheating?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Had you gone through with it, I highly doubt she would have been okay with it. 

This statement is gaslighting...nothing more. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

a_new_me said:


> Do not be angry at a house that collapses when it did not have a solid foundation to sit on.


A house has no agency. 

A wayward spouse does. Always.

Your entire argument is predicated upon on someone not having said agency in their choices, when there is ALWAYS other choices, of which leaving the abusive marriage resides at the top.

Now...one can argue that if they sexually neglect their spouse, it isn't unexpected for them to find fulfillment elsewhere. That is the risk one takes in neglecting.

However, the choice to cheat is just that: a choice...and it is never okay. 



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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

a_new_me said:


> To be honest, in my opinion, it is perspective and communication.
> 
> There are a LOT of women out there, fighting with menopause, that give their permission to their husbands to go outside of the marriage. The same applies to men fighting with ED. In these situations, They are going through medical issues, however they understand the basic needs of their partners, and would prefer that their spouse have a ‘side piece’ to get those needs met instead of ruining what is otherwise a wonderful relationship. They develop boundaries and an understanding so that they can protect their unit while allowing their partners the ability to have their needs met.
> Stupid example, but all I can think up right now. He likes to golf. I like to golf too, but I cannot because I have diabetic ulcers on my feet and cannot put pressure on them. We use to golf together all the time. I can see how much it is hurting him not to be able to golf anymore, but we have been golf partners for years so he stopped, even though it is really causing him a lot of pain and frustration. I see his pain and frustration and tell him that it is okay if he gets another golf partner while my foot slowly heals as long as we follow these rules of the game.
> ...




You say to give a “pass” or”side piece” to one when a medical issue is at hand to not wreck an otherwise 
“wonderful” marriage. Marriage vows state in health and sickness, so if a pass or side piece is offered I can’t say that marriage is wonderful to begin with. Sure, we all have needs, but I would like to think that staying true to your vows perseveres over a side piece. What would happen if granted a side piece and then they fall in love? Divorce and then marry? Vows are vows, they aren’t taken lightly by many, but some say it to say it. It means nothing to them after a few years or even months sometimes. My point here is that cheating is a decision, it is thought about by the one who cheats. The one who cheats is accepting of the advances of another, unless it was by force. No matter how you try to defend cheating, cheating by opinions or different perspectives or situations, the final fact is that it’s a choice made by the one who cheats.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Casual Observer said:


> Is there a TAM-approved manner of stepping outside the bounds of marriage for sex, prior to actually getting divorced? If the wife is fed up with a husband’s desire for sex, it simply isn’t going to happen, yet she wants to stay married... and tells the husband that, If we’d is so important to him, go find someone to have sex with... is that still cheating if he takes her up on that? What if he does but doesn’t tell her. Still cheating?
> 
> I am NOT asking for a friend. Yet I’ve had such words spoken to me. In my mind, it would have been cheating. In her mind, maybe not.
> 
> So is it black and white? I prefer the answer to be yes.


Bah. 

Listen. Cheating apologists love to hide behind “its complicated” and “we share the blame” and any number of things that pay therapists bills and sell Esther Perel nonsense books. 

Lots of people deserve to get dumped. Nobody deserves to get cheated on. 

If you’re adult enough to have sex and be married then you are adult enough to have grown up conversations and clear decision making. 

“Spouse, I’m not happy for X and Y reasons. Your options are to join me working on X and Y with real committed progress by Z date, or I seek X and Y outside the marriage, or we divorce. I prefer option 1, but it’s up to you. No choice or no action means choice 2 or 3.”

There. Everybody gets what they want with no cheating and clear lines of accountability and decision making. 

If someone steps out as a joint decision between both of them, it’s not cheating. If someone isn’t going to work on the marriage and yet won’t accept an open marriage, then you divorce. 

Anything else is just an excuse and rationalization.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

a_new_me said:


> I am sorry if how I am trying to relate these things seem ‘stupid’, but I am trying to contextualize so that people can ‘relate’.
> 
> The biggest ‘skeleton in the closet’ here is communication, empathy and maturity.
> 
> ...


Passive, victim mindset.

With a solid dose of magical thinking. 

Many, many affairs - maybe even most - happen in happy marriages. 

People as a general rule do not cheat because of the relationship. 

People as a general rule cheat because they have no integrity.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

At one time during our marriage my wife was absolutely, 100% sure I was cheating. I traveled a lot for work to support my family while my wife was a SAHM taking care of the house and kids. She would accuse me of having another woman everywhere I went. (I never cheated). She even went so far as to say it was OK to have another woman as long as I did not leave her and the kids.

Then things got better eventually and I was so relieved that she finally believed me. Then I find out she is deep in an EA with a guy at her gym. I think I caught it in time before she took it physical but I'll never know for sure.

I did everything I could to assure her that I was not a cheater but nothing helped. But she eventually turned to another guy for emotional support because she never believed me. 

I did not blame myself. 

I did not see her imagination that I was a cheater as a valid reason for her to cheat on me.

I am sure my situation can be looked at from many different angles and many reason given for her behavior.

But for me it was simple. If she cheated, she no longer loved or valued me as a husband and partner, nor the marriage , nor the family. 

I did not divorce her because I could not prove it went physical and because the kids were very young when this took place.

But it changed our marriage. I never trusted 100% again. I am wondering now if she was cheating during all the time she was accusing me. Was she projecting her behavior onto me in some sort of twisted justification?

This was a long time ago. We are still married and the kids are gone so it is just me and her now.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Passive, victim mindset.
> 
> With a solid dose of magical thinking.
> 
> ...


Referencing the bolded part, perhaps this happens because boundaries are loose, likely never discussed, and everything just goes along nicely until a previously never-really-considered boundary is finally crossed? Lack of checks & balances leading up to the cheating?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

TDSC60 said:


> But it changed our marriage. I never trusted 100% again. I am wondering now if she was cheating during all the time she was accusing me. Was she projecting her behavior onto me in some sort of twisted justification?
> 
> This was a long time ago. We are still married and the kids are gone so it is just me and her now.


Yes, yes YES and YES!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

what is being introduced here is the idea that cheating can make a person stronger. 
think about that for a minute
next idea, cheating is not as bad as the abuse.
Think about that. there are lots of kinds of abuse, cheating is one of them, initiating a separation is another one of them. so which abuse is worse, your mileage may vary.
my thoughts on this. There are much better ways to make yourself stronger. If i'm in a relationship where there is abuse there is going to be separation. Less people die.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TDSC60 said:


> At one time during our marriage my wife was absolutely, 100% sure I was cheating. I traveled a lot for work to support my family while my wife was a SAHM taking care of the house and kids. She would accuse me of having another woman everywhere I went. (I never cheated). She even went so far as to say it was OK to have another woman as long as I did not leave her and the kids.
> 
> Then things got better eventually and I was so relieved that she finally believed me. Then I find out she is deep in an EA with a guy at her gym. I think I caught it in time before she took it physical but I'll never know for sure.
> 
> ...


Change the names, or swap H for W in this example and it describes a common situation across many marriages. 

Tough but true.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Casual Observer said:


> Referencing the bolded part, perhaps this happens because boundaries are loose, likely never discussed, and everything just goes along nicely until a previously never-really-considered boundary is finally crossed? Lack of checks & balances leading up to the cheating?


Yes to the boundary issues, but not really the rest in my experience. 

I’ll tell you about one person I talked to. 

She didn’t understand why she did it. And I don’t think she was lying to me - she actually seemed baffled why she let some random guy hit on her on a girls trip, slept with him, and then came home to her husband. 

To her credit, she told him. But she was confused by both her behaviour, her lack of explanations, and why her marriage was on the brink of failure and why her husband was so hurt. 

I mean, she understood why he was hurt and the marriage was in trouble intellectually, but not empathetically. Like, she understood why in theory these things were a problem but because it didn’t mean anything, it should be get over-able. 

They ended up reconciling, and I’m fairly sure she won’t do it again, but when pressed the only reason why she won’t is because of the problems it’s created in her own life. It’s almost stunning how low integrity this person is - it’s like it just happened, like she was sleep walking, and it was just a boo boo in her marriage and shouldn’t be an extinction level event or cause her husband trauma. 

And the kicker is that she claims to have loved her husband before, during, and after the fling equally. She says she was happy before the affair. Happier, in fact, than she is now because her marriage is now unhappy. She says fairly forthrightly that her relationship had nothing at all to do with her fling. They occupied two different compartmentalized parts of her life. And I think that’s the key - a lack of integrity throughout all parts of her identity and life. 

She was effectively single in her mind while away, so she acted as if she were single and this all happened in some kind of different timeline as her marriage, so it shouldn’t really impact it. 

I think that kind of thing is more common than we like to think. 

If you go on the reddit sub infidelity for example, there’s all kinds of compartmentalizations happening - which indicates a total lack of integrity.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Wow, this thread has some passionate responses.

I'm throwing this out there, not that I agree with it, but:

There are many marriages, unfortunately, that over the long haul, 30, 40, 50 years, that one or both spouses had affairs the other "knew" about, but both parties are in marriages' for good, and solid, happy, etc and they still know they can depend upon each other despite here and theres, yet neither party dwells on erratic dalliances, and remain solid partners united in life. 

Many marriages have different types of problems. Affairs are just one type, for whatever reason.

It's not a perfect situation but it is a reality.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Wow, this thread has some passionate responses.
> 
> I'm throwing this out there, not that I agree with it, but:
> 
> ...


RR, l would disagree on all things being equal in the marriage as far as faults come and go, but infidelity is the Fire I. The building the other spouse is shouting. It cannot be pushed aside but must be dealt with strongly, swiftly, and directly. If not rugsweeping is the smoke that remains in the building.

If the doors are not open then it never clears, then it becomes stale and the stench of it all makes it unbearable. 

While l know you say you don't necessarily agree, maybe keeps those who have knocking knees. Will forever be closed in. For fear of opening the door and the new air restarts the building on fire again.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Yes to the boundary issues, but not really the rest in my experience.
> 
> I’ll tell you about one person I talked to.
> 
> ...


Not sure anything with this example invalidates my idea that boundary discussions are initially important and in need of refreshing down the line. Boundary discussions exist because what one does affects the other. They require thought about consequences. As you said, when she was on a trip, she felt like she was single. No discussion of behavior was ever likely had beforehand, because, well, why? But if the two of them understood even the concept of boundaries, and talked about them from time to time. things might have felt different for her. She might have recognized that marriage isn't a part-time thing. 

But geez, this is NOT something we think about. We feel like everything's going along fine... until it isn't. And sometimes it isn't simply because everything was going along fine so you don't think about prevention. And that's kind of the theme here at TAM. We are, 99% of the time, focusing on after-the-fact issues. We rarely have discussions about how to avoid problems for the newly-married or thinking about being married couple. We "Talk About Marriage" problems that have already happened. We don't focus on inoculation. The best we can hope for is a "This can happen to YOU" type of feeling when somebody without issues comes across this site, but would they even come here if they didn't have issues?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Yes to the boundary issues, but not really the rest in my experience.
> 
> I’ll tell you about one person I talked to.
> 
> ...


I don't really know how WELL you know this woman. But she is an example of one or two types of people. Option 1) She is really messed up. By that I mean, she really does not understand about relationships at all. At a level that some type of abuse or dysfunction took place that messed her up. 

Or option 2) she is just kind of amoral and clueless. Which may or may not be caused by anything. 

Now I am not saying that a person can't have sex but you can't do it while married unless an agreement is made and it does not sound like her H was in on the deal. 

I would think her H is clueless as well, because she is prime divorce material in my book...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Tilted 1 said:


> RR, l would disagree on all things being equal in the marriage as far as faults come and go, but infidelity is the Fire I. The building the other spouse is shouting. It cannot be pushed aside but must be dealt with strongly, swiftly, and directly. If not rugsweeping is the smoke that remains in the building.
> 
> If the doors are not open then it never clears, then it becomes stale and the stench of it all makes it unbearable.
> 
> While l know you say you don't necessarily agree, maybe keeps those who have knocking knees. Will forever be closed in. For fear of opening the door and the new air restarts the building on fire again.


We're in agreement, infidelity is indeed the Fire Alarm happening. 

I threw this out for just this, general discussion as it hadn't been mentioned. 

Look at our dadgum politicians just for the highly visible examples. There are some Ms that affairs don't burn the whole house, and the good life for both spouses continue in the marriage. 

In my opinion it's a house burner but not to all.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure anything with this example invalidates my idea that boundary discussions are initially important and in need of refreshing down the line. Boundary discussions exist because what one does affects the other. They require thought about consequences. As you said, when she was on a trip, she felt like she was single. No discussion of behavior was ever likely had beforehand, because, well, why? But if the two of them understood even the concept of boundaries, and talked about them from time to time. things might have felt different for her. She might have recognized that marriage isn't a part-time thing.
> 
> But geez, this is NOT something we think about. We feel like everything's going along fine... until it isn't. And sometimes it isn't simply because everything was going along fine so you don't think about prevention. And that's kind of the theme here at TAM. We are, 99% of the time, focusing on after-the-fact issues. We rarely have discussions about how to avoid problems for the newly-married or thinking about being married couple. We "Talk About Marriage" problems that have already happened. We don't focus on inoculation. The best we can hope for is a "This can happen to YOU" type of feeling when somebody without issues comes across this site, but would they even come here if they didn't have issues?


But that's the case, who goes to the Dr before he's sick, no one. But that's why we focus on outcome responses. Some try before hand but there's already trouble in the mix. Hopefully it's a losing to winning type results. We can only hope for the best.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure anything with this example invalidates my idea that boundary discussions are initially important and in need of refreshing down the line. Boundary discussions exist because what one does affects the other. They require thought about consequences. As you said, when she was on a trip, she felt like she was single. No discussion of behavior was ever likely had beforehand, because, well, why? But if the two of them understood even the concept of boundaries, and talked about them from time to time. things might have felt different for her. She might have recognized that marriage isn't a part-time thing.
> 
> But geez, this is NOT something we think about. We feel like everything's going along fine... until it isn't. And sometimes it isn't simply because everything was going along fine so you don't think about prevention. And that's kind of the theme here at TAM. We are, 99% of the time, focusing on after-the-fact issues. We rarely have discussions about how to avoid problems for the newly-married or thinking about being married couple. We "Talk About Marriage" problems that have already happened. We don't focus on inoculation. The best we can hope for is a "This can happen to YOU" type of feeling when somebody without issues comes across this site, but would they even come here if they didn't have issues?


My point is that if someone isn’t fully formed, including having integrity - boundary discussions are pointless. 

If someone is a different person depending on the situation they are in, in terms of values, identity, etc, then the boundaries will shift depending on the context. 

For me, boundaries are absolute and I will not violate them if at all possible. They don’t change depending on where I am, who I’m with, or if I won’t get caught. 

For many, perhaps most, this is simply not the case. Many people will claim they do, but they don’t, really. They just rationalize it or delude themselves and everyone around them. They don’t have integrity - which is a complex word. 

Integrity is the practice of being honest and showing a consistent and uncompromising adherence to strong moral and ethical principles and values.[1][2][3] In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Integrity can stand in opposition to hypocrisy,[4] in that judging with the standards of integrity involves regarding internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding within themselves apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs. The word integrity evolved from the Latin adjective integer, meaning whole or complete.[1] In this context, integrity is the inner sense of "wholeness" deriving from qualities such as honesty and consistency of character. As such, one may judge that others "have integrity" to the extent that they act according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

BluesPower said:


> I don't really know how WELL you know this woman. But she is an example of one or two types of people. Option 1) She is really messed up. By that I mean, she really does not understand about relationships at all. At a level that some type of abuse or dysfunction took place that messed her up.
> 
> Or option 2) she is just kind of amoral and clueless. Which may or may not be caused by anything.
> 
> ...


I think she’s sleepwalking through life. Which is a very easy thing to do, and probably encouraged by modern society. 

Why be introspective and tough on yourself instead of just doing what’s easy?

Why examine why you cheated and be hard on yourself when you could listen to Esther Perel’s Ted talk that makes you feel like a misunderstood hero for cheating? Why step into your husbands pain when you could just show him an article in Cosmo that says he should see it as a good thing and an opportunity for him to grow?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> We're in agreement, infidelity is indeed the Fire Alarm happening.
> 
> I threw this out for just this, general discussion as it hadn't been mentioned.
> 
> ...


Lest ,we all forget politicians aren't really people.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I think she’s sleepwalking through life. Which is a very easy thing to do, and probably encouraged by modern society.
> 
> Why be introspective and tough on yourself instead of just doing what’s easy?
> 
> Why examine why you cheated and be hard on yourself when you could listen to Esther Perel’s Ted talk that makes you feel like a misunderstood hero for cheating? Why step into your husbands pain when you could just show him an article in Cosmo that says he should see it as a good thing and an opportunity for him to grow?


Sad comment about our society... I do hope you are wrong. 

That is something that I will never do. I was a zombie once, just not an amoral cheating zombie, but a zombie...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> Is there a TAM-approved manner of stepping outside the bounds of marriage for sex, prior to actually getting divorced? If the wife is fed up with a husband’s desire for sex, it simply isn’t going to happen, yet she wants to stay married... and tells the husband that, If we’d is so important to him, go find someone to have sex with... is that still cheating if he takes her up on that? What if he does but doesn’t tell her. Still cheating?
> 
> I am NOT asking for a friend. Yet I’ve had such words spoken to me. In my mind, it would have been cheating. In her mind, maybe not.
> 
> So is it black and white? I prefer the answer to be yes.


My aunt and uncle had an agreement between them that he went elsewhere to get sex. Evidently at some point in their marriage she decided she wanted nothing to do with sex any more, not with him or anyone else. They still loved each other, so they stayed together, and had a good marriage otherwise. Pretty sure this was the situation the majority of their marriage, I was always the baby in the family and was not aware of all this until the last 15 years or so.. both are now deceased. Its my understanding they only had issues with one woman over all those years, and they worked it out. No way in hell would I agree to a marriage like this, but I guess they decided this would work for them.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

BluesPower said:


> Sad comment about our society... I do hope you are wrong.
> 
> That is something that I will never do. I was a zombie once, just not an amoral cheating zombie, but a zombie...


Read this and try not to puke. 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537882/

This is the current thinking for many therapists. And it’s just wrong.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Marduk said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> > Sad comment about our society... I do hope you are wrong.
> ...


Welcome to the brave new world. Disgusting!


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Tilted 1 said:


> But that's the case, who goes to the Dr before he's sick, no one. But that's why we focus on outcome responses. Some try before hand but there's already trouble in the mix. Hopefully it's a losing to winning type results. We can only hope for the best.




“Who goes to the doctor before he is sick, no one”
Good example.
Most people only go to the doctor for routine checkups and in the duration of time that lapses between those checkups, they do what they can to make sure that their next appointment is successful...the entire ‘an apple a day keeps the doctor away’ analogy.

A healthy marriage needs to be the same thing. People need to make sure that they are keeping their relationships healthy. They need to know and understand their own and their partners love languages and do their best to communicate these and keep the relationship healthy.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dragan Jovanovic (Jan 16, 2019)

So you say if I dont give enough money to my wife,and then she goes and robes a bank and kills the teller I am to blame to that also??? Are you kidding me?? There is one thing called divorce. If you dont want to be married any more, you file for divorce. As simple as that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Yes to the boundary issues, but not really the rest in my experience.
> 
> I’ll tell you about one person I talked to.
> 
> ...


Some people are too dumb to be married. Marriage takes a level of emotional intelligence that this women doesn't have. That is the thing, NOT ALL PEOPLE SHOULD BE MARRIED. 

When I read stories like this I often think her husband should go to Vegas and sleep with a couple of hookers, she will understand then. I am not advocating for that but like seriously, she doesn't know why her marriage is failing. Yeah right.

If I was that guy I would divorce as you all know, but lets say I didn't go with that option, then my next thought would be, since this doesn't "mean" anything to you like you say, how about we open up the marriage for me. Like you said, it doesn't mean anything and that way I get variety. Maybe it will make me feel better. I would bet that most would balk over that idea. Suddenly it would MEAN something to them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Read this and try not to puke
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537882/
> 
> This is the current thinking for many therapists. And it’s just wrong.


Happiness and contentment is not a key to keep people from doing amoral behavior. Character is. It's a fallacy that the media and the modern world preaches that people do wrong because they are unhappy, poor, rich, men, women. At the end of the day people do wrong because they want to and they don't have the character to act as a buffer to stop them. 

On a different note I am often stunned at the lack of wisdom that the academics that study this stuff have on the very subjects they study. I have begone to suspect that that is the case in many things.

OH wait it's Esther Perel, there is also such a thing as willful ignorance. Like I always say "**** Esther Perel but never marry Esther Perel."


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Happiness and contentment is not a key to keep people from doing amorally behavior. Character is. It's a fallacy that the media and the modern world preaches that people do wrong because they are unhappy, poor, rich, men, women. At the end of the day people do wrong because they want to and they don't have the character to act as a buffer to stop them.
> 
> On a different note I am often stunned at the lack of wisdom that the academics that study this stuff have on the very subjects they study. I have begone to suspect that that is the case in many things.
> 
> OH wait it's Esther Perel, there is also such a thing as willful ignorance. Like I always say "**** Esther Perel but never marry Esther Perel."


She’s been asked if she’s in an open marriage, or how her husband feels about her sleeping around if it’s so great, or how she feels about her husband sleeping around if it’s so great. 

She just gets this stunned look on her face and refuses to answer. 

I guess her “art therapy” degree from a bottom tier university didn’t prepare her for that.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I clicked on this thread because of the mention of MC in the title, but didn't see much about MC until the last few posts. 

When a couple come to me asking for help with infidelity, generally
- it has already happened, been discovered, and the affair has stopped
- the couple have decided they want to R, and that's what they are paying me for
- so it is not up to me to dispense blame or judgment. I do what they are asking for. 

That doesn't mean I don't have opinions, but I keep them to myself. There are circumstances under which I'd have a serious individual conversation with the injured party about "are you SURE you want this?" 



Marduk said:


> I’ll tell you about one person I talked to.
> 
> She didn’t understand why she did it. And I don’t think she was lying to me - she actually seemed baffled why she let some random guy hit on her on a girls trip, slept with him, and then came home to her husband.
> 
> ...


Yeah, exactly, and well put. I think pretty often this is what is going on. The offender (a) doesn't understand what happened, (b) compartmentalises, and (c) doesn't get why their partner is so hurt. (And probably isn't all that keen to understand either). 

My mission, heaven help me, is to try to change that. I need to work on that empathy, bolded part above. With some highly narcisstic people that's impossible, but sometimes it works. 



sokillme said:


> Like I always say "**** Esther Perel but never marry Esther Perel."


That's a good one!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Laurentium said:


> My mission, heaven help me, is to try to change that. I need to work on that empathy, bolded part above. With some highly narcisstic people that's impossible, but sometimes it works.


Work on yourself or help others? What’s your plan?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> I clicked on this thread because of the mention of MC in the title, but didn't see much about MC until the last few posts.
> 
> When a couple come to me asking for help with infidelity, generally
> - it has already happened, been discovered, and the affair has stopped
> ...


This here is the problem, they don't know enough to know what they don't know... Which is vary dangerous...


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Marduk said:


> Work on yourself or help others? What’s your plan?


I am usually trying to help the offender develop some empathy. One place to start is to get them to think about how it happened, and figure out what was going on in their own head. Then they may start to feel some remorse. While they can't even look at themselves, they can't change. 

This is the point at which TAM people may feel that I am helping them to develop excuses, and that the reason it happened is just that they are bad to the bone people. I prefer your description of them as unintegrated, and sometimes they can develop a bit more integration and self knowledge. I don't have the option of saying to them, "you're just a person of bad character, no morals, you just need to be better". 

Given the proportion of the population who (apparently) commit infidelity, the level of integration in the population at large is not high. 

As you said:


> I think she’s sleepwalking through life. Which is a very easy thing to do, and probably encouraged by modern society. Why be introspective and tough on yourself instead of just doing what’s easy? Why examine why you cheated and be hard on yourself when you could listen to Esther Perel’s Ted talk


Sometimes my job is to awaken the sleepwalkers


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> This here is the problem, they don't know enough to know what they don't know... Which is vary dangerous...


Can you expand on that?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Laurentium said:


> I am usually trying to help the offender develop some empathy. One place to start is to get them to think about how it happened, and figure out what was going on in their own head. Then they may start to feel some remorse. While they can't even look at themselves, they can't change.


It’s possible, but it is often reality-altering, and very scary. Because it means self-examination on a level that most people are unprepared for, unwilling to do, and you need to neutralize all the ego protection mechanisms in the mind to do it.

Most people just won’t bother. They’ll just go sit on the couch and watch TV instead. Or end the relationship, and go find someone that will tell them that they’re a good person and none of it was their fault. Legions of these people are out there, because it means easy sex, easy relationships, and they also don’t need to look inward.



> This is the point at which TAM people may feel that I am helping them to develop excuses, and that the reason it happened is just that they are bad to the bone people. I prefer your description of them as unintegrated, and sometimes they can develop a bit more integration and self knowledge. I don't have the option of saying to them, "you're just a person of bad character, no morals, you just need to be better".


Well, if they become integrated, often they do discover they are a person of bad character. They have to face it to grow. 

It is uncommon in my experience - literature be damned - to find someone that cheats only once. Or someone that cheats in relationships but doesn’t cheat with their finances, at their job, or in other aspects of their life. Integrity is what happens when nobody is looking - and these people often in my experience take the easy road in many aspects of their life if they think they can get away with it.

Which kinda does mean that they lack an ethical or moral base to stand on.



> Given the proportion of the population who (apparently) commit infidelity, the level of integration in the population at large is not high.
> 
> As you said:
> 
> Sometimes my job is to awaken the sleepwalkers


I wish you well in your task. In my experience, you have to want to wake up - and those people find their way when they make that decision. Just like someone that smokes for decades suddenly decides to quit one day just quits cold turkey for good, and yet others that try to quit fail over and over again - because they don’t really want to quit.

As they say in the dojo, “When the student is ready, the master appears,” the student needs to have made themselves ready.

Things like a Keisaku (a stick used to hit students in some zen practices) can suddenly trigger enlightenment, but only when the student has already decided to make their practice the center of their life, and they’re actually sitting in the zendo doing the work.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I agree with all of your post, but focusing on this bit:



Marduk said:


> Well, if they become integrated, often they do discover they are a person of bad character.


I think they usually already know that, at some level, but don't know what it means. 

One key to this is that I (the MC) have to let go of any of my own disapproval. If I can't, it won't work. They have to get that I've seen all this so many times before, that I don't dislike them, that I will still support them even when they admit out loud what has happened. That's not "support them to stay the same", that's support them as they admit they need to change.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> Can you expand on that?


You know enough by reading here and other places I am sure to understand that the statement that quoted, unless it was your thoughts, is part of the problem. 

Think like this, if you see yourself "waking the sleepwalkers" then you are lost. Maybe you could think differently but then it may cut in to your bottom line, if I am understanding you properly. 

Is a marriage is going to survive, if it can survive, it is the Betrayed spouse that needs to wake up. That person is the one that has to wake up, and see what is real and not real. 

If you "work to keep the marriage together at all costs" you empower the unremorseful cheater at the expense of the betrayed. You are in fact allowing the abuse to continue, you are in fact participating in the abuse because you are not focusing on the person that needs the help first. 

Can you understand part of what you MC's don't understand? 

Don't even get me started on the "everyone is a victim" and everyone contributed to the marriage before the cheating. 

All of that is crap. One cheated under the same set of circumstances the other did not. THAT IS WHAT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH FIRST. Not the marriage issues, not how the cheater feels, the cheating has to be dealt with. 

This is the prime mistake that most MC's make. You all talk about this crap at your training sessions and school and you don't really understand anything. 

I am sure you don't agree, but can you understand anything I am saying???


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> I clicked on this thread because of the mention of MC in the title, but didn't see much about MC until the last few posts.
> 
> When a couple come to me asking for help with infidelity, generally
> - it has already happened, been discovered, and the affair has stopped
> ...


I'm curious is there ever a point were you refuse to take them?

As I see it, infidelity is a form of abuse then there are some levels of abuse where it's immoral for the relationship to continue in the same way that if a husband has continued to beat up his wife, put her in the hospital etc.. there comes a point were the marriage needs to end, for her own safety. 

I wonder if you you ever feel conflicted.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> You know enough by reading here and other places I am sure to understand that the statement that quoted, unless it was your thoughts, is part of the problem.


I wasn't sure which part of what you quoted it was. Thanks for saying more. 
I can speak only for myself, really, not all MCs. 



> Think like this, if you see yourself "waking the sleepwalkers" then you are lost. Maybe you could think differently but then it may cut in to your bottom line, if I am understanding you properly.


My bottom line doesn't come in to it. I don't make more money if they stay together versus if they don't. In fact I'd probably make more if I just provided "rug-sweeping assistance". If I advertised that I don't deal with affairs at all, and said reconciliation never works, I'd still have a waiting list. But I've seen it work. 

(In fact, where I feel less optimistic, is someone married to an alcoholic. From my experience that's a tougher turn-around). 



> If a marriage is going to survive, if it can survive, it is the Betrayed spouse that needs to wake up. That person is the one that has to wake up, and see what is real and not real.


Yes. I get that. That will happen, if it happens at all, as they watch the wayward spouse either trying, or refusing to try, to have empathy. They will see very clearly what they've got as a partner. 



> If you "work to keep the marriage together at all costs"


Good lord. I don't know who that's a quote from, but I would never do that. 



> you empower the unremorseful cheater at the expense of the betrayed. You are in fact allowing the abuse to continue, you are in fact participating in the abuse because you are not focusing on the person that needs the help first.


The only part of that I disagree with is "first". I am starting with the spotlight on the wayward. 



> and everyone contributed to the marriage before the cheating.


That's actually true, but *it's no excuse*, and it's not the time to be bringing it up! 

Can I tell you that I once got a complaint from a wayward, because I said "of course there is no excuse"? My point is that the betrayed, seeing that their partner was indignant at my statement, may just have their eyes opened. In a way that me just _telling_ them might not. 



> One cheated under the same set of circumstances the other did not. THAT IS WHAT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH FIRST. Not the marriage issues, not how the cheater feels, the cheating has to be dealt with.


Yes. I agree. The marriage issues come much later, if ever. I'm not sure what I said that made you think i thought otherwise. 

I am trying to get to the point where the WS, when I say "you made that choice", says "yes I did" rather than "but...."



> This is the prime mistake that most MC's make. You all talk about this crap at your training sessions and school and you don't really understand anything.


I am wondering if you read what you expected to read in my statements. 

My understanding, such as it is, comes mainly from my own life and from the many couples I've dealt with, not from some academic paper. 

I think what bothers some people here is that I am looking at the wayward not in terms of immorality, but in more psychological terms, their narcissism and lack of empathy. But actually, I think seeing it that way helps _both_ of them.

Thanks for engaging. I always want feedback.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I wonder if you you ever feel conflicted.


Probably every working day. 

Let me turn the question back on you. Imagine I have a couple, with two young children. This is a made up scenario but not at all untypical. Let's say the woman was violently abused as a child and still has literal physical scars as well as emotional ones, and she's had a one night stand, which she now _says _she regrets. But she has little emotional capacity for empathy. If she regrets it, it's just because it has caused trouble. To her, sex and love are disconnected, in fact having sex with closeness feels abusive to her. The man is about equally mentally healthy. Should I tell them whether *I* think they should split up or not?



> As I see it, infidelity is a form of abuse then there are some levels of abuse where it's immoral for the relationship to continue in the same way that if a husband has continued to beat up his wife, put her in the hospital etc.. there comes a point were the marriage needs to end, for her own safety.


I agree. 



> I'm curious is there ever a point were you refuse to take them?


Well, refusing to take them *may not help the BS to escape*, but ultimately you are right there are some situations so bad it would be unethical for me to agree to "help them fix it". 
If there's ongoing violence, controlling behaviour, other forms of abuse, then I won't see them beyond talking to the victim and offering that person individual support to get out. 
I won't work with them if there's currently ongoing infidelity, because that's really (as you say) like abuse. In that case too I am talking to the victim, but that often doesn't help (as we also see on TAM).


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> Probably every working day.
> 
> Let me turn the question back on you. Imagine I have a couple, with two young children. This is a made up scenario but not at all untypical. Let's say the woman was violently abused as a child and still has literal physical scars as well as emotional ones, and she's had a one night stand, which she now _says _she regrets. But she has little emotional capacity for empathy. If she regrets it, it's just because it has caused trouble. To her, sex and love are disconnected, in fact having sex with closeness feels abusive to her. The man is about equally mentally healthy. Should I tell them whether *I* think they should split up or not?


So this is why I could never do your job. I can personally say that IMO these people should not be married to anyone. That would be a good MC session. "Nope I am sorry you both need to divorce and not get married again until you have lots of therapy." Ha! On a side note, being a child of divorce, the idea staying together for the kids doesn't hold water with me. Back to the main point though, I suspect from reading these stories on here that this is about 90% of all your clients when it comes to emotional health. In my mind all things being equal, such as finances as an example, I think a very healthy person doesn't usually stay, maybe if the WS had a ONS and immediately confessed but the others ones were there is long term lying and abuse I think the healthy choice is usually to divorce.

I actually think someone who has a really strong sense of self probably has a better chance of avoiding a serial cheater in the first place. I see it like this, serial cheaters are basically con-men and women. So like any con-person? they are looking for a "mark". Also like any con-person they are not going to waste their time with someone who they can tell is able to see through their game. 

I think this holds true in what I have read here and other places. I can't tell you how shocking it is to me how quickly many regular posters especially on SI are quick to assume the worst offenders are reformed just because they cry some tears and say how sorry they are. The just seem profoundly unwise, but then if you take my theory into account it makes sense. Now of course there are acceptations, also you have to go through it once to really understand how awful people can be. Cheaters take advantage of peoples innocence and naivety for sure. 

I think the overall point is, even in your hypothetical example those two dysfunctional people are probably with each other because their dysfunction kind of lead them to it. Which is why it's really good advice to tell the BS to work on themselves. Sounds like that is kind of how you go about it. That is probably the most positive way to approach it. I would have a hard time not screaming at some of these people to wake up and dupe the *******.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

sokillme said:


> So this is why I could never do your job.


Well, it never ceases to be interesting. 



> I can personally say that IMO these people should not be married to anyone. That would be a good MC session. "Nope I am sorry you both need to divorce and not get married again until you have lots of therapy."


Even if you said that, do you think they would take your advice?



> In my mind all things being equal, such as finances as an example, I think a very healthy person doesn't usually stay, maybe if the WS had a ONS and immediately confessed but the others ones were there is long term lying and abuse I think the healthy choice is usually to divorce.
> 
> I actually think someone who has a really strong sense of self probably has a better chance of avoiding a serial cheater in the first place.


Yes, this. The healthiest people are less likely to get cheated on. 



> I see it like this, serial cheaters are basically con-men and women. So like any con-person? they are looking for a "mark". Also like any con-person they are not going to waste their time with someone who they can tell is able to see through their game.


Well, now you've added "serial". I kind of agree with the above, but not all cheaters are serial. 

What serial cheaters tend to be saying to themselves is "everyone does this".


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> Even if you said that, do you think they would take your advice?
> 
> No. At least not until they get healthy.
> 
> ...


I think when it comes to serial cheaters tell themselves "I want this." And that's it, I don't think they justify anything. I don't think they have a thought about anyone else to need to justify it. I think when they get caught they tell people "everyone does this" because if they said "I didn't care who I hurt" they would look like monsters and they are smart enough to at least fake it. 

Even with the non-serial cheaters there is a level of compartmentalizing that not everyone is capable of. I think it's like you said, it comes down to different levels of empathy. I can understand when you are working with someone close, and say your relationship at home has become pretty routine, well then you could start to have strong desires for someone. I can even understand impulsively acting on that but to continue that behavior the guilt would just be too much for me, at least I would hope. Now because I said it was possible I must be vigilant but as far as an affair, I would feel too guilty, besides I am also too lazy, it seems like a hell of a lot of work. 

This is why I believe there are cheaters and non-cheaters. Cheaters just don't have the level of empathy to feel the guilt at least not at the level that would make them stop. Now that is very different then having the desire to cheat. I think that is probably possible for everyone.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Laurentium said:


> I agree with all of your post, but focusing on this bit:
> 
> I think they usually already know that, at some level, but don't know what it means.
> 
> One key to this is that I (the MC) have to let go of any of my own disapproval. If I can't, it won't work. They have to get that I've seen all this so many times before, that I don't dislike them, that I will still support them even when they admit out loud what has happened. That's not "support them to stay the same", that's support them as they admit they need to change.


Why?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Marduk said:


> Passive, victim mindset.
> 
> With a solid dose of magical thinking.
> 
> ...





Casual Observer said:


> Referencing the bolded part, perhaps this happens because *boundaries are loose, likely never discussed,* and everything just goes along nicely until *a previously never-really-considered boundary is finally crossed*? Lack of checks & balances leading up to the cheating?


 @Casual Observer, you are blaming the victim.

When most people get married, it is understood that they are going to be faithful to each other. Most people say vows like these:

"I, ___, take thee, ___, to be my wedded husband/wife, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and *to cherish*, till death do us part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I pledge thee my faith [or] pledge myself to you."​
Most people believe that "to love and to cherish" means that they will be faithful to them. Those vows establish very tight boundaries for the married couple, that they will only love each other and cherish each other, until the day they die.

Cherish:
Definition of cherish
transitive verb

1a: to hold dear : feel or show affection for
cherished her friends
*b: to keep or cultivate with care and affection : NURTURE
cherishes his marriage*
2: to entertain or harbor in the mind deeply and resolutely
still cherishes that memory​
I've lived in foreign countries where cheating is common, because of the cultural mores. Men (mostly men, some women) in those cultures believe that a little cheating won't hurt. Having a family on the side won't hurt, as long as they treat their wife like a princess when he is home with her. She is busy doing everything she knows to be a good wife, mother, support his home foundation so he can further his career without worrying about his home.

Then he feels entitled to have another woman, or women, because, "He is a man, with desires that deserve to be fed."

Those same men say vows in church, beacause they only set church 3 times in their lives: a baptism, marriage, or funeral. They lie in front of the wedding guests and their soon to be wife, because the vows are just something you say when you get married, and are not to be taken seriously. All the while, the other party believes the vows with all their heart, and they plan to keep them.

Cheating is on the cheater alone. If a person is not satisfied with their spouse, they need to divorce and remain single, so they can live their life the way they want to...dating lots of people.


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