# Have You/Your Spouse Changed Expectations for Neatness and Order over Time?



## ChasT

My wife and I have been together for nearly 40 years, married for more than 38. I have noticed in recent years that my tolerance for clutter and messiness has significantly declined and I find it more stressful to live with my wife who, at least to my eyes, is becoming less organized and much more of a slob. Such clutter was understandable when our kids were younger, but now that we are empty nesters it seems like we should be able to keep things in much better order. The situation has intensified in recent months as we have downsized and are temporarily in a small apartment.

I am not a "neat freak," but I do like walking into the living room and not seeing clothes strung about the furniture, papers scatterd on the table, and several pairs of shoes on the floor by the sofa. I like keeping the kitchen counters orderly, though not completely clear and I dislike seeing dirty cups and dishes strewn about. When I see these things I will pick up, wash dishes, wipe off counters, etc., so I am not saying it is my wife's duty to clean up every mess. I also have given up on saying anything to her since she takes it as a criticism of her housekeeping (when it is really more of a frustration that she can't/won't pick up after herself).

I have not always been this way, but it seems that the older I get (early 60s now) the more stressful I find disorganization and clutter. I want to minimize the wasted mental and emotional energy needed to hunt for something. As much as I have become more inclined toward neatness and organization, it seems my wife has gone the opposite direction. 

There may be a psychological explanation for both of our shifts, but I am wondering if such a dynamic is unusual. I fear I may becoming Felix Unger to my wife's Oscar Madison.

Have any of you experienced this sort of phenomenon in your long-term marriage?


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## BootsAndJeans

I grew up in close to a "Hoarders Buried Alive" episode. I had no clue about how to clean or be neat. The military helped train me and my wife has continued the training. 

Our house sometimes get a bit cluttered, but that only lasts a day or two. We both jump on it. Our house is always clean though. I have drifted into minimalism for myself (den/man cave and garage). Honestly, without my wife, I probably would have carried on the hoarding disorder that I was raised in. My younger brother and his wife are Hoarders, stuff and animals. I refuse to even go to his house.


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## BootsAndJeans

ChasT said:


> My wife and I have been together for nearly 40 years, married for more than 38. I have noticed in recent years that my tolerance for clutter and messiness has significantly declined and I find it more stressful to live with my wife who, at least to my eyes, is becoming less organized and much more of a slob. Such clutter was understandable when our kids were younger, but now that we are empty nesters it seems like we should be able to keep things in much better order. The situation has intensified in recent months as we have downsized and are temporarily in a small apartment.
> 
> I am not a "neat freak," but I do like walking into the living room and not seeing clothes strung about the furniture, papers scatterd on the table, and several pairs of shoes on the floor by the sofa. I like keeping the kitchen counters orderly, though not completely clear and I dislike seeing dirty cups and dishes strewn about. When I see these things I will pick up, wash dishes, wipe off counters, etc., so I am not saying it is my wife's duty to clean up every mess. I also have given up on saying anything to her since she takes it as a criticism of her housekeeping (when it is really more of a frustration that she can't/won't pick up after herself).
> 
> I have not always been this way, but it seems that the older I get (early 60s now) the more stressful I find disorganization and clutter. I want to minimize the wasted mental and emotional energy needed to hunt for something. As much as I have become more inclined toward neatness and organization, it seems my wife has gone the opposite direction.
> 
> There may be a psychological explanation for both of our shifts, but I am wondering if such a dynamic is unusual. I fear I may becoming Felix Unger to my wife's Oscar Madison.
> 
> Have any of you experienced this sort of phenomenon in your long-term marriage?


ChasT... there are some therapy and also organizational programs. Have you aklsked her why? Is her patents house a disaster?

There have been a couple of times, when were overwhelmed, that I got a cleaning service to come in. Wife was not thrilled to have another woman/women in her house, but it did release the pressure.


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## Diana7

Mr D has got far more relaxed since we married 17 years ago thankfully. He had been married for 23 years to a lady who was practically obsessed with housework, and his mum before that was also a bit of a neat freak.
I have always been pretty balanced about the housework, I keep things clean but don't usually worry about a bit of untidiness sometimes and Mr D has relaxed so much more now and also isn't bothered about having to have things always neat and tidy.

It sounds like it's you who has changed so if something bothers you then you maybe should tidy it up. Or how about you suggest that once a week you both spend an hour or so together having a blitz on the house to make it look better. Then you could maybe go out for coffee or lunch.


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## Mr.Married

Mrs.Married was major OCD clean up until about 4 years ago. The house still remains very clean but she no longer has a panic attack if a sock is on the ground.


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## DownByTheRiver

ChasT said:


> My wife and I have been together for nearly 40 years, married for more than 38. I have noticed in recent years that my tolerance for clutter and messiness has significantly declined and I find it more stressful to live with my wife who, at least to my eyes, is becoming less organized and much more of a slob. Such clutter was understandable when our kids were younger, but now that we are empty nesters it seems like we should be able to keep things in much better order. The situation has intensified in recent months as we have downsized and are temporarily in a small apartment.
> 
> I am not a "neat freak," but I do like walking into the living room and not seeing clothes strung about the furniture, papers scatterd on the table, and several pairs of shoes on the floor by the sofa. I like keeping the kitchen counters orderly, though not completely clear and I dislike seeing dirty cups and dishes strewn about. When I see these things I will pick up, wash dishes, wipe off counters, etc., so I am not saying it is my wife's duty to clean up every mess. I also have given up on saying anything to her since she takes it as a criticism of her housekeeping (when it is really more of a frustration that she can't/won't pick up after herself).
> 
> I have not always been this way, but it seems that the older I get (early 60s now) the more stressful I find disorganization and clutter. I want to minimize the wasted mental and emotional energy needed to hunt for something. As much as I have become more inclined toward neatness and organization, it seems my wife has gone the opposite direction.
> 
> There may be a psychological explanation for both of our shifts, but I am wondering if such a dynamic is unusual. I fear I may becoming Felix Unger to my wife's Oscar Madison.
> 
> Have any of you experienced this sort of phenomenon in your long-term marriage?


Well they're probably is a psychological component. Like maybe other parts of your life feel like they are a little out of control and so you would like for your home to be the one thing that was dependably organized. 

I hate clutter, and the best I can do because I live alone is I devote one small bedroom to a wardrobe and junk room and keep that door closed. And then I have another little cluttery place in one edge of my office. But I am an absolutely terrible housekeeper and rarely housekeep. I just try not ever to leave anything laying around and then I call every few months and have a housekeeper come in and do a top to bottom.

In your case I think you should consider hiring a housekeeper if you can afford it. Have them come once a week. But I will tell you that if you don't clean up the clutter before a housekeeper comes you'll not know what became of your favorite shorts and find them in some weird place later because they don't have a clue where they belong and only you do. 

So most people clean up for the maid before they come so they don't lose things. But who knows maybe that would be enough to get you and your wife to go declutter the night before they come.


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## Openminded

I was married for 45 years. I grew up in an extremely neat and clean home and my husband grew up in one that was basically not. I wasn’t good at tolerating messiness and he wasn’t good at not being messy. I did manage to deal with the messiness and keep it from taking over, plus I also had cleaners in to help regularly, but it was an ongoing source of conflict. We were a mismatch in several ways and that was one. It can make for a very difficult marriage.


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## ChasT

BootsAndJeans said:


> I grew up in close to a "Hoarders Buried Alive" episode. I had no clue about how to clean or be neat. The military helped train me and my wife has continued the training.
> 
> Our house sometimes get a bit cluttered, but that only lasts a day or two. We both jump on it. Our house is always clean though. I have drifted into minimalism for myself (den/man cave and garage). Honestly, without my wife, I probably would have carried on the hoarding disorder that I was raised in. My younger brother and his wife are Hoarders, stuff and animals. I refuse to even go to his house.


Wow. Sounds like you have broken the cycle, but your brother is locked in. I don't fear her becoming a hoarder, but the clutter and disorganization add stress that I would like to avoid.


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## ChasT

BootsAndJeans said:


> ChasT... there are some therapy and also organizational programs. Have you aklsked her why? Is her patents house a disaster?
> 
> There have been a couple of times, when were overwhelmed, that I got a cleaning service to come in. Wife was not thrilled to have another woman/women in her house, but it did release the pressure.


Her parents house was reasonably well kept, especially for a family of eight kids. The girls in the family all assisted with the housework and the boys were responsible for helping on the farm, so it never seemed to be out of order--especially in the "public" area of the house. 

We had a weekly to bi-weekly housekeeper for most of the past 20 years. It helped keep down the clutter a bit, because we always picked up the house before the housekeeper came. Now that we are in an apartment, there is no need for someone to help clean house and also no need to pick up every so often. On the other hand, I would prefer not to create the disorder in the first place.


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## DownByTheRiver

ChasT said:


> Her parents house was reasonably well kept, especially for a family of eight kids. The girls in the family all assisted with the housework and the boys were responsible for helping on the farm, so it never seemed to be out of order--especially in the "public" area of the house.
> 
> We had a weekly to bi-weekly housekeeper for most of the past 20 years. It helped keep down the clutter a bit, because we always picked up the house before the housekeeper came. Now that we are in an apartment, there is no need for someone to help clean house and also no need to pick up every so often. On the other hand, I would prefer not to create the disorder in the first place.


There IS still the need. Otherwise, your smaller apartment space will be insufferable.


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## Openminded

My experience is that messy people tend not to see their mess or if they do see it they don’t care. Someone else will clean it up or not but it isn’t likely to be them.


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## ChasT

Diana7 said:


> Mr D has got far more relaxed since we married 17 years ago thankfully. He had been married for 23 years to a lady who was practically obsessed with housework, and his mum before that was also a bit of a neat freak.
> I have always been pretty balanced about the housework, I keep things clean but don't usually worry about a bit of untidiness sometimes and Mr D has relaxed so much more now and also isn't bothered about having to have things always neat and tidy.
> 
> It sounds like it's you who has changed so if something bothers you then you maybe should tidy it up. Or how about you suggest that once a week you both spend an hour or so together having a blitz on the house to make it look better. Then you could maybe go out for coffee or lunch.


I would say I have changed somewhat as I have gotten older, but I would say her lack of organization and general untidiness has increased as well. As I said, I am not really a "neat freak." Things don't have to be perfect, but it would be nice if I didn't feel like I was constantly picking up after her or if I felt like she was even the least bit concious of the messes she makes and the stress they induce.

Here'are a couple of examples:
We have a key ring rack inside our entryway where our keys can be hung for easy access and to avoid having to hubnt for them when we are needing to leave the house. She rarely, if ever hangs her keys on the rack yet, invariably, when she is leaving the house in a hurry for work we have to scour the house to find out where she left her keys. Her keys are on her dresser, in her coat pocket, in her purse, on the kitchen counter...anywhere except on the rack. She stresses because she can't find them and doesn't want to be late...I get dragged into helping her look for them. If I say, perhaps she should be more consistent in using the key rack, I am accused of being hyper critical.

It is nearly 8 PM our time and it would be nice if we didn't go to bed and have to wake up with a lot of clutter. Our apartment kitchen has a large island. I don't think it has to be completely clear at all times, but I do think it is good to keep it from being too cluttered, especially since our kitchen and dining/living room are one open space. Right now, the following items are on the counter (all but two placed by her:

Her hairbrush
The thermometer she used to take her temperature this morning
An open box with one of the remaining Covid tests, also from this morning
A bottle of Tylenol, ditto
Lancome face cream, from last night
A dead plant that she isn't sure what to do with
A candy bar she picked up this afternoon
An empty pack of cookies she shared with our granddaughter this afternoon
A fork from I'm not sure where it's from
A brochure for a Christmas program
A souvenir mug from said Christmas program
Two plastic folders that she brought in from my car so she could use them for work
A pair of scissors she used to open an Amazon package earlier today
An open box of Christmas ornaments that she used to decorate our front door wreath this afternoon
An open package of ornament hooks that have spilled out onto the counter
A tube of hand cream
An electric toothbrush (one of three she has because she keeps losing track of them)
Part of a New York Times paper, sans the crossword puzzle she is working on
A half-empty can of flat Perrier, which matches the half-empty can on her night stand and is complemented by the newly-opened can she has in front of her on the coffee table
A cheese knife that she used to spread butter on her toast this morning
The cup from the Dayquil medicine she took yesterday
The lighter she used to light the candle that is currently burning on the counter
I left the directions to assembling our new Christmas treee this evening (will put away in a bit) and the flyer distributed by our apartment complex about upcoming events and activities
Some of these items I can just put away so they won't be there in the morning. Some are items that she needs to put away because I am not sure where they go. Some need to be put in the dishwasher or washed and dried before putting away and some need to be trashed or recycled. Yet, few of them need to be left on the counter overnight. If I start to clean the counter she will be insulted and feel like I am criticizing her, so I am in a no-win situation.


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## ChasT

Openminded said:


> I was married for 45 years. I grew up in an extremely neat and clean home and my husband grew up in one that was basically not. I wasn’t good at tolerating messiness and he wasn’t good at not being messy. I did manage to deal with the messiness and keep it from taking over, plus I also had cleaners in to help regularly, but it was an ongoing source of conflict. We were a mismatch in several ways and that was one. It can make for a very difficult marriage.


Thanks. I think the difference is that we used to be less divergent in the messy/clean aspect. I think she has gotten more messy and disorganized and I have started to be less tolerant of it. But you're right, it is becoming more difficult.


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## Openminded

ChasT said:


> Thanks. I think the difference is that we used to be less divergent in the messy/clean aspect. I think she has gotten more messy and disorganized and I have started to be less tolerant of it. But you're right, it is becoming more difficult.


That’s definitely possible. I think it can add up over time. I know that in Year 45 I was considerably less tolerant of the messiness than I was in Year 1.


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## ChasT

DownByTheRiver said:


> There IS still the need. Otherwise, your smaller apartment space will be insufferable.


Not for a housekeeper in this small apartment. In addition to picking up, I am able to clean bathrooms, dust, sweep,and vacuum the apartment when I am home on weekends. The issue is more that she is getting worse and I am getting less tolerant.


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## Livvie

ChasT said:


> I would say I have changed somewhat as I have gotten older, but I would say her lack of organization and general untidiness has increased as well. As I said, I am not really a "neat freak." Things don't have to be perfect, but it would be nice if I didn't feel like I was constantly picking up after her or if I felt like she was even the least bit concious of the messes she makes and the stress they induce.
> 
> Here'are a couple of examples:
> We have a key ring rack inside our entryway where our keys can be hung for easy access and to avoid having to hubnt for them when we are needing to leave the house. She rarely, if ever hangs her keys on the rack yet, invariably, when she is leaving the house in a hurry for work we have to scour the house to find out where she left her keys. Her keys are on her dresser, in her coat pocket, in her purse, on the kitchen counter...anywhere except on the rack. She stresses because she can't find them and doesn't want to be late...I get dragged into helping her look for them. If I say, perhaps she should be more consistent in using the key rack, I am accused of being hyper critical.
> 
> It is nearly 8 PM our time and it would be nice if we didn't go to bed and have to wake up with a lot of clutter. Our apartment kitchen has a large island. I don't think it has to be completely clear at all times, but I do think it is good to keep it from being too cluttered, especially since our kitchen and dining/living room are one open space. Right now, the following items are on the counter (all but two placed by her:
> 
> Her hairbrush
> The thermometer she used to take her temperature this morning
> An open box with one of the remaining Covid tests, also from this morning
> A bottle of Tylenol, ditto
> Lancome face cream, from last night
> A dead plant that she isn't sure what to do with
> A candy bar she picked up this afternoon
> An empty pack of cookies she shared with our granddaughter this afternoon
> A fork from I'm not sure where it's from
> A brochure for a Christmas program
> A souvenir mug from said Christmas program
> Two plastic folders that she brought in from my car so she could use them for work
> A pair of scissors she used to open an Amazon package earlier today
> An open box of Christmas ornaments that she used to decorate our front door wreath this afternoon
> An open package of ornament hooks that have spilled out onto the counter
> A tube of hand cream
> An electric toothbrush (one of three she has because she keeps losing track of them)
> Part of a New York Times paper, sans the crossword puzzle she is working on
> A half-empty can of flat Perrier, which matches the half-empty can on her night stand and is complemented by the newly-opened can she has in front of her on the coffee table
> A cheese knife that she used to spread butter on her toast this morning
> The cup from the Dayquil medicine she took yesterday
> The lighter she used to light the candle that is currently burning on the counter
> I left the directions to assembling our new Christmas treee this evening (will put away in a bit) and the flyer distributed by our apartment complex about upcoming events and activities
> Some of these items I can just put away so they won't be there in the morning. Some are items that she needs to put away because I am not sure where they go. Some need to be put in the dishwasher or washed and dried before putting away and some need to be trashed or recycled. Yet, few of them need to be left on the counter overnight. If I start to clean the counter she will be insulted and feel like I am criticizing her, so I am in a no-win situation.


Honestly, I would not live this way. 

To the point of requesting marriage counseling because it's beyond disrespectful to force you to live this way. 

I'm serious. 

This thread makes me super duper happy I'm currently single.


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## DownByTheRiver

ChasT said:


> I would say I have changed somewhat as I have gotten older, but I would say her lack of organization and general untidiness has increased as well. As I said, I am not really a "neat freak." Things don't have to be perfect, but it would be nice if I didn't feel like I was constantly picking up after her or if I felt like she was even the least bit concious of the messes she makes and the stress they induce.
> 
> Here'are a couple of examples:
> We have a key ring rack inside our entryway where our keys can be hung for easy access and to avoid having to hubnt for them when we are needing to leave the house. She rarely, if ever hangs her keys on the rack yet, invariably, when she is leaving the house in a hurry for work we have to scour the house to find out where she left her keys. Her keys are on her dresser, in her coat pocket, in her purse, on the kitchen counter...anywhere except on the rack. She stresses because she can't find them and doesn't want to be late...I get dragged into helping her look for them. If I say, perhaps she should be more consistent in using the key rack, I am accused of being hyper critical.
> 
> It is nearly 8 PM our time and it would be nice if we didn't go to bed and have to wake up with a lot of clutter. Our apartment kitchen has a large island. I don't think it has to be completely clear at all times, but I do think it is good to keep it from being too cluttered, especially since our kitchen and dining/living room are one open space. Right now, the following items are on the counter (all but two placed by her:
> 
> Her hairbrush
> The thermometer she used to take her temperature this morning
> An open box with one of the remaining Covid tests, also from this morning
> A bottle of Tylenol, ditto
> Lancome face cream, from last night
> A dead plant that she isn't sure what to do with
> A candy bar she picked up this afternoon
> An empty pack of cookies she shared with our granddaughter this afternoon
> A fork from I'm not sure where it's from
> A brochure for a Christmas program
> A souvenir mug from said Christmas program
> Two plastic folders that she brought in from my car so she could use them for work
> A pair of scissors she used to open an Amazon package earlier today
> An open box of Christmas ornaments that she used to decorate our front door wreath this afternoon
> An open package of ornament hooks that have spilled out onto the counter
> A tube of hand cream
> An electric toothbrush (one of three she has because she keeps losing track of them)
> Part of a New York Times paper, sans the crossword puzzle she is working on
> A half-empty can of flat Perrier, which matches the half-empty can on her night stand and is complemented by the newly-opened can she has in front of her on the coffee table
> A cheese knife that she used to spread butter on her toast this morning
> The cup from the Dayquil medicine she took yesterday
> The lighter she used to light the candle that is currently burning on the counter
> I left the directions to assembling our new Christmas treee this evening (will put away in a bit) and the flyer distributed by our apartment complex about upcoming events and activities
> Some of these items I can just put away so they won't be there in the morning. Some are items that she needs to put away because I am not sure where they go. Some need to be put in the dishwasher or washed and dried before putting away and some need to be trashed or recycled. Yet, few of them need to be left on the counter overnight. If I start to clean the counter she will be insulted and feel like I am criticizing her, so I am in a no-win situation.


She's just super disorganized. She's one of those people who can't put things away. It was my hatred of losing stuff and having to hunt for it that finally made me concentrate on putting things back in their place as soon as I was done with them. I don't ever lay my keys anywhere except in a certain pocket of my purse! In the bad old days, I once lost them and found them in the freezer. Those days had to go. 

Maybe if she was who had to bear the brunt of losing crap and not being able to cook for having every counter covered, maybe, just maybe she's have incentive to try to change. Have you ever tried just letting her wallow like a pig without helping her hunt for her belongings or cleaning behind her? She sounds like a child. 

But if you can't fix it, just hire a housekeeper -- especially if that is what it takes to get her to put things away the day before. I mean, that is worth something. But it's also just sad that that is what it takes for her to just do it! When she gets to be my age, if she doesn't get more organized, she will be all crippled up and just running into walls and exhausting herself looking for stuff.


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## ChasT

DownByTheRiver said:


> She's just super disorganized. She's one of those people who can't put things away. It was my hatred of losing stuff and having to hunt for it that finally made me concentrate on putting things back in their place as soon as I was done with them. I don't ever lay my keys anywhere except in a certain pocket of my purse! In the bad old days, I once lost them and found them in the freezer. Those days had to go.
> 
> Maybe if she was who had to bear the brunt of losing crap and not being able to cook for having every counter covered, maybe, just maybe she's have incentive to try to change. Have you ever tried just letting her wallow like a pig without helping her hunt for her belongings or cleaning behind her? She sounds like a child.
> 
> But if you can't fix it, just hire a housekeeper -- especially if that is what it takes to get her to put things away the day before. I mean, that is worth something. But it's also just sad that that is what it takes for her to just do it! When she gets to be my age, if she doesn't get more organized, she will be all crippled up and just running into walls and exhausting herself looking for stuff.



Thanks. Not sure how old you are, but at 62, I doubt things will get better for her. Aging is part of the reason I am more concerned with order and consistency. I have less patience or energy to spend on looking for my keys or my shoes. Instead, I have to invest that energy in trying to clean up behind her.


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## DownByTheRiver

ChasT said:


> Thanks. Not sure how old you are, but at 62, I doubt things will get better for her. Aging is part of the reason I am more concerned with order and consistency. I have less patience or energy to spend on looking for my keys or my shoes. Instead, I have to invest that energy in trying to clean up behind her.


Exactly, and you have to really lock down efficiency once you start getting tired or having trouble walking well. When one of my knees blew several years ago, I had to really start thinking about each painful step I was taking and maximizing them. I set up "stations," about one per room where I would place things until I had to go to their ultimate destination. So for example, the mail comes in and there's bills. I bring them in. First place I set them down is washer in the kitchen because it's on the path to the office. Next time I have to let the dog out (in the office) I move the bills to a box I have sitting on my office steps level with the kitchen. Then when it's time I have to go to my office desk, I pick those bills up and take them to their destination, my desk. That was all to break my old habit when I was young and spry of just taking something all the way across the house and then moving back and forth like that all day moving things and putting them up. 

She's probably not going to get organized -- not while you're doing it for her. She knows you will because it bothers you worse than it bothers her. I wonder how useless she would be if you, say, had to have knee replacement and needed her to take over things for a few weeks. Some people would step up, and others would be useless. 

I agree that it might be worth doing marriage counseling for. Might work, might not. Otherwise, I think you are setting a bad pattern doing it all for her. She has no incentive to change. 

But before I'd let housework end a marriage, small apartment or not, I'd have a housekeeper if that was the only other choice. I started when I was in a one-bedroom apartment. I was just working all the time. I was able to clean it all myself when I had time back then. Now I'm not. And I hate doing it. Smaller place, housekeeper wouldn't charge as much and you could possibly do it every other week. Just saying. I guess you feel you'd just do it yourself. But if so, just don't expect your wife to change. And really, this can be a big issue once one or both of you becomes less able to do things. So you might take a stab at marriage counseling for it.


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## Openminded

Livvie said:


> Honestly, I would not live this way.
> 
> To the point of requesting marriage counseling because it's beyond disrespectful to force you to live this way.
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> This thread makes me super duper happy I'm currently single.


Yes.

I did live that way for decades, with more and more resentment, and it’s one of several reasons I’m very happily single.


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## ChasT

DownByTheRiver said:


> Exactly, and you have to really lock down efficiency once you start getting tired or having trouble walking well. When one of my knees blew several years ago, I had to really start thinking about each painful step I was taking and maximizing them. I set up "stations," about one per room where I would place things until I had to go to their ultimate destination. So for example, the mail comes in and there's bills. I bring them in. First place I set them down is washer in the kitchen because it's on the path to the office. Next time I have to let the dog out (in the office) I move the bills to a box I have sitting on my office steps level with the kitchen. Then when it's time I have to go to my office desk, I pick those bills up and take them to their destination, my desk. That was all to break my old habit when I was young and spry of just taking something all the way across the house and then moving back and forth like that all day moving things and putting them up.
> 
> She's probably not going to get organized -- not while you're doing it for her. She knows you will because it bothers you worse than it bothers her. I wonder how useless she would be if you, say, had to have knee replacement and needed her to take over things for a few weeks. Some people would step up, and others would be useless.
> 
> I agree that it might be worth doing marriage counseling for. Might work, might not. Otherwise, I think you are setting a bad pattern doing it all for her. She has no incentive to change.
> 
> But before I'd let housework end a marriage, small apartment or not, I'd have a housekeeper if that was the only other choice. I started when I was in a one-bedroom apartment. I was just working all the time. I was able to clean it all myself when I had time back then. Now I'm not. And I hate doing it. Smaller place, housekeeper wouldn't charge as much and you could possibly do it every other week. Just saying. I guess you feel you'd just do it yourself. But if so, just don't expect your wife to change. And really, this can be a big issue once one or both of you becomes less able to do things. So you might take a stab at marriage counseling for it.


Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate response. I don't think I indicated I was considering ending the marriage for this reason, but I did ask if others had experienced a divergence from their partners over time in terms of neatness/orderliness. No one has chimed in with such an experience at this point so I must be unique.


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## ChasT

Openminded said:


> Yes.
> 
> I did live that way for decades, with more and more resentment, and it’s one of several reasons I’m very happily single.



Thank you, OpenMinded, for your honesty. This would not be a reason why I would divorce, but it is something I know would be easier to deal with if I were on my own.


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## Openminded

ChasT said:


> Thank you, OpenMinded, for your honesty. This would not be a reason why I would divorce, but it is something I know would be easier to deal with if I were on my own.


My exH and I had several more serious issues than this one but, over the decades, it became more and more difficult for me to continue to deal with the never-ending messiness — especially in my mid-60’s (which is when we divorced). I much prefer my single life. No more constantly helping to find things I didn’t misplace (keys and wallet and money clip at the top of the list). I sympathize, believe me.


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## DownByTheRiver

ChasT said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate response. I don't think I indicated I was considering ending the marriage for this reason, but I did ask if others had experienced a divergence from their partners over time in terms of neatness/orderliness. No one has chimed in with such an experience at this point so I must be unique.


Perhaps because of the generation I'm from, for I am 70, I have known many women who had husbands who weren't helping and were cluttery and all that. So I'm surprised some of them aren't chiming in. But it's probably because no one ever got them to change. My guess is if she was on her own then she might have some incentive to change. Or not. 

When my sister went in the hospital for 6 months, before she got out a group of friends came over and cleaned the house. There were petrified sandwiches on saucers under the bed etc. But she has been getting frequent housekeeper work so she can keep working as she is older than me and truly at a place now where she couldn't do the work either.


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## BootsAndJeans

It is more difficult as you ago. Paid housekeepers are tge way to go, if financially possible.


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## Personal

ChasT said:


> Yet, few of them need to be left on the counter overnight. If I start to clean the counter she will be insulted and feel like I am criticizing her, so I am in a no-win situation.





ChasT said:


> This would not be a reason why I would divorce, but it is something I know would be easier to deal with if I were on my own.


Then there is nothing you will do about it of any consequence that will change things.

When you acquiesce from the get go, you ensure you will get what you surrender to.

And on this idea that it is no win, I concur you are in a no win situation, that you are choosing for yourself.

At the end of the day, given that you are not willing to rock the boat, when your wife is messing with the ballast. Despite the fact, that you would do well to criticise her, since her behaviour warrants criticism. You are voluntarily choosing to wrap a dead stinking albatross around your neck.

That said as long as you are cognisant of this being a self inflicted problem by you on you. Then all ought to be good for you, since this behaviour from your wife is evidently what you want from her.


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## DownByTheRiver

It would be easier to address in marriage counseling. But there's no point in doing it if you're not going to be honest and address it. She will probably act floored like she had no idea bothered you but that will be a lie.


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## Diana7

BootsAndJeans said:


> It is more difficult as you ago. Paid housekeepers are tge way to go, if financially possible.


Never had a cleaner or housekeeper. Just never saw the need nor had the spare money. It's not that hard to keep a small home tidy and clean if you want to. Maybe when I am much older, (we are both in our mid 60's now), I will get a company in once or twice a year to do the harder jobs if we have the spare money. It would feel weird someone else cleaning my home after all this time though. Mr D and I actually help a family member with some cleaning/mowing the lawn once a week as well as doing ours.


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## CharlieParker

BootsAndJeans said:


> It is more difficult as you ago. Paid housekeepers are tge way to go, if financially possible.


We've hired a house cleaner since before we got married or even moved in together. The pressure to clean for the cleaning lady, even if just every other week, keeps clutter in check big time.


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## hamadryad

I wonder if it's a combination of a few things. She's older and her body doesn't respond as easily as it used to, and perhaps she spends too much time on her phone/devices? The issue of cell phone addiction literally robs people of their attention and causes various deficiencies in peoples lives. For some I don't think they realize how much time they spend/ waste on it. I can't say this is the story for her, but something to consider as I encounter it often. 

I am kind of a neatnik and always make time to keep my space at home neat, clean, and uncluttered. I could not live with someone like your wife. I don't want to have to police that crap and all it would do is frustrate me and build resentment. I know at times life gets chaotic, and ducks can't always be in a row, so I would be tolerant of those circumstances, but if it was a day in, day out thing, then that would be problematic. 

I've also realized that the best way to keep things neat and organized is to get rid of most of it. Less is more, I've reached a stage where I want very little, even "sentimental" stuff doesn't mean crap any more. Maybe you are feeling the same and she isn't? 

Either way I don't believe that this is anything that will improve over time, but who knows? You may have to live your life kind of where you have "your" space and she has hers. The common areas will be what they are, but at least you will know that "your" areas are meeting your standard.


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## BeyondRepair007

BootsAndJeans said:


> It is more difficult as you ago. Paid housekeepers are tge way to go, if financially possible.


@ChasT this ^^^^ is the way to go. @DownByTheRiver and @BootsAndJeans and others have it right.

You say there’s no need because of the small apartment but I disagree.

You want to change your wife’s behavior and that’s impossible because she doesn’t want to change it. I’ve had the exact same issue, believe me.

The housekeeper is needed to keep the peace and to solve your “no win” delima. You’re right, housekeepers aren’t needed in the sense of small living space and you should keep it clean, etc.

However, that’s not happening and you are anxious over it. It will only get worse. Stop trying to change her and hire a housekeeper.

The only other alternative is to do it yourself and force the “you need to get over it, I’m going to do this” conversation. That won’t be a pleasant one! And your relationship will suffer afterward for it.


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## ChasT

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts about how to handle the situation. I understand people have a strong inclination to help solve problems and, while I appreciate your support, I didn't really ask for solutions. I was wondering more about what has been driving the divergence and I am more concerned about the disorderliness than the mess.

At 62 she is not frail, so it is not a physical thing. There is no physical reason that the bed we share (and which I regularly make) should have 2-3 of her worn and not worn outfits on it. Her dresser is literally two feet away and the closet is just a few feet further. There is no physical reason why she can't put things back in the place where they came from or why several pairs of shoes are strewn about the couch area. 

With no kids to keep after it is not a parenting thing. While we are both busy people, I have tried to get her to see that the lack of organization and subsequent clutter actually robs us of both productive and relaxing time. My fear is that it is an increased mental disorderliness, combined with a selfishness manifesting as a lack of consideration for others. Or worse, it could be an early sign of mental decline.

Financially, we could afford a housekeeper, as we had for the better part of 20 years. Hiring another housekeeper is treating the symptom, however, but not addressing the root cause. 

The combination of her increasing disorderliness and my increased sensitivity to disorderliness is stressful, to be sure, but it is changes that are more concerning than the divergent preferences themselves.


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## BootsAndJeans

Therapy then


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## Diana7

ChasT said:


> Thanks to everyone for your thoughts about how to handle the situation. I understand people have a strong inclination to help solve problems and, while I appreciate your support, I didn't really ask for solutions. I was wondering more about what has been driving the divergence and I am more concerned about the disorderliness than the mess.
> 
> At 62 she is not frail, so it is not a physical thing. There is no physical reason that the bed we share (and which I regularly make) should have 2-3 of her worn and not worn outfits on it. Her dresser is literally two feet away and the closet is just a few feet further. There is no physical reason why she can't put things back in the place where they came from or why several pairs of shoes are strewn about the couch area.
> 
> With no kids to keep after it is not a parenting thing. While we are both busy people, I have tried to get her to see that the lack of organization and subsequent clutter actually robs us of both productive and relaxing time. My fear is that it is an increased mental disorderliness, combined with a selfishness manifesting as a lack of consideration for others. Or worse, it could be an early sign of mental decline.
> 
> Financially, we could afford a housekeeper, as we had for the better part of 20 years. Hiring another housekeeper is treating the symptom, however, but not addressing the root cause.
> 
> The combination of her increasing disorderliness and my increased sensitivity to disorderliness is stressful, to be sure, but it is changes that are more concerning than the divergent preferences themselves.


If she has always been on the messy side then it can't have anything to do with mental decline and at 62 she is not elderly.
Some people are just messy.
You can have children from the same home where one is ultra neat and one is messy. Anyway the cause is irrelevant, it's how to deal with it that matters. You have been given some things to try.


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## ChasT

Diana7 said:


> If she has always been on the messy side then it can't have anything to do with mental decline and at 62 she is not elderly.
> Some people are just messy.
> You can have children from the same home where one is ultra neat and one is messy. Anyway the cause is irrelevant, it's how to deal with it that matters. You have been given some things to try.


Thanks. While she has never been super organized, it has been getting worse in recent years.


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## BootsAndJeans

ChasT said:


> Thanks. While she has never been super organized, it has been getting worse in recent years.


A bit more nuanced response.

As Diana7 stated, some people are just "messy". This is probably a learned thing, but could also be something like ADHD. 

I grew up NOT knowing how to not be messy or about cleanliness. I was always embarrassed by my parent's house. 

What worked for me was being required to and trained in the military to be neat and clean. The military is a bit over the top with that, but it did create a different mindset and base to build upon. 

The second, is my wife was raised in a house where neatness and cleanliness was the norm and she was trained from a child to instill that mindset. She has helped reorient me and kept me on purpose with this. There have been a few times where I have slipped back and my garage or den would get cluttered. 

There are actual programs and specialists that help people reorient themselves in this. I had a great aunt/uncle whose clutter/hoarding overwhelmed them as they aged. My uncle tripped over some crap, broke his hip and never recovered. The EMT's could not get a gurney into their house to package him. 

I would suggest you have an honest talk with her. Express that you need to address this now, before age and disability combines to make it a huge problem.


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## Openminded

ChasT said:


> Thanks. While she has never been super organized, it has been getting worse in recent years.


Maybe you feel there’s a medical reason for it? Something to mention to her doctor?


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## Livvie

Openminded said:


> Maybe you feel there’s a medical reason for it? Something to mention to her doctor?


He said it looks like increased selfishness and not a medical reason.

I'd STOP helping her look for lost items if it were me. Let her feel some consequences of her messiness, otherwise there is zero motivation for het to improve.


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## Openminded

Livvie said:


> He said it looks like increased selfishness and not a medical reason.
> 
> I'd STOP helping her look for lost items if it were me. Let her feel some consequences of her messiness, otherwise there is zero motivation for het to improve.


Yes, my experience was increased selfishness (unfortunately not uncommon with age). I would do things much differently if I had it all to do over. I was an enabler and nothing good comes of that.


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## Diana7

ChasT said:


> Thanks. While she has never been super organized, it has been getting worse in recent years.


Or maybe it's just annoyed you more recently.


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## UAArchangel

Diana7 said:


> Never had a cleaner or housekeeper. Just never saw the need nor had the spare money. It's not that hard to keep a small home tidy and clean if you want to. Maybe when I am much older, (we are both in our mid 60's now), I will get a company in once or twice a year to do the harder jobs if we have the spare money. It would feel weird someone else cleaning my home after all this time though. Mr D and I actually help a family member with some cleaning/mowing the lawn once a week as well as doing ours.


If you have the skills, it's not that hard. It's just a form of maintenance. However, not everybody was raised to have those skills or has the organized mind that allows them to keep a neat house.


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## Diana7

UAArchangel said:


> If you have the skills, it's not that hard. It's just a form of maintenance. However, not everybody was raised to have those skills or has the organized mind that allows them to keep a neat house.


I dont see it as being about skills, it's just a matter of doing what needs to be done. How much skill does to take to tidy up and clean a toilet? When I was growing up my room was always a mess. When you are married you just learn to get on with it. Couldn't justify paying anyone to do what is just basic housework.


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## DownByTheRiver

People who are disorganized can never get ahead of it. They get bogged down with life in general and put things off and it's not confined to housework usually.


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## ChasT

Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughtful responses. I don't see her changing. More counseling for her, me, or us will not likely produce anything other than a lighter bank account. So, I guess I will just keep an eye on things and make do as best I can with the stress it causes.


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## ShatteredKat

Wife grew up with very little - other than basic food/shelter/clothes. 
Until she got with me, she always had to take a calculator when buying groceries to be sure to have enough money when checking out.

She has always had a new car since we married. Never has to worry about $$ at the stores.
The picture is what used to be our dining room. Before the Barbie doll fetish, she had a sewing machine on the table and bought YARDS of cloth to make masks for family and friends. Out of sight in the picture standing against a wall is two ROLLS of material she bought to make masks. I have not a clue how many yards of material on each roll and the "width" is 60 inches. She has two closets in the house (kids all gone) stuffed to the point the door can barely close. 

I could go on with some more crap - but the point is - I think she is losing her Cabbage. 
She "has her own $$$" so I can't do much to dissuade her transitory fetishes but I am moving my income to a separate account with her only access being when I croak.

Ya, I didn't sign up for this when I got at the Altar.

- sigh


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## BootsAndJeans

ShatteredKat said:


> View attachment 94069
> 
> 
> Wife grew up with very little - other than basic food/shelter/clothes.
> Until she got with me, she always had to take a calculator when buying groceries to be sure to have enough money when checking out.
> 
> She has always had a new car since we married. Never has to worry about $$ at the stores.
> The picture is what used to be our dining room. Before the Barbie doll fetish, she had a sewing machine on the table and bought YARDS of cloth to make masks for family and friends. Out of sight in the picture standing against a wall is two ROLLS of material she bought to make masks. I have not a clue how many yards of material on each roll and the "width" is 60 inches. She has two closets in the house (kids all gone) stuffed to the point the door can barely close.
> 
> I could go on with some more crap - but the point is - I think she is losing her Cabbage.
> She "has her own $$$" so I can't do much to dissuade her transitory fetishes but I am moving my income to a separate account with her only access being when I croak.
> 
> Ya, I didn't sign up for this when I got at the Altar.
> 
> - sigh


@ShatteredKat - no, nope, nada.........I would put my foot down. I refuse to live like this, it was the house I grew up in.

My wife, while not a hoarder or sloppy, also was raised to be frugal. When we downsized after the kids grew up (4,000 square foot farmhouse, to a 1,600 square foot house), I found butt loads of saved wrapping paper and stuff in a closet. I burned it all, I was not moving it. She got ticked off, but I asked her what was the point of keeping and reusing this stuff? We can aford wrapping paper, gift bags and tissue paper stuffing when needed. She was just raised that way. Her parents are independently wealthy and have been retired since 50. They always go on about living on a fixed income and aquaintenances think they are just poor old people. They have millions at their fingertips and their personal chacking account never gets below $20 grand.

My parents are not poor, just middle class, but are hoarders and slobs. I grew up that way, House cluttered, junk everywhere, tables piled up with crap, etc. I will not live like that. If my wife started this, she would get mental help or I would leave. No, no, no........I am not going to be an elderly person buried in trash and clutter.


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## Sfort

@ChasT I could have written your initial post. It's pretty much a lost cause. I've reached the decision that the only hope is to treat the symptom and not the disease. She's causing you stress by causing you to live in a dump. You will have to cause her stress by cleaning up and throwing away. If she has panic attacks over not having last month's empty cereal box, she can seek counseling. Throw her clothes on the bed in a hamper. When the hamper is full, empty it into a trash bag, tie it up, and throw it in her closet. Or something like that. My patience is wearing thin to the point that I'm considering downsizing our house. We bought a house twice the size of our last one, and it's full of crap.


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## aine

My tolerance for mess was never high, I like a neat home and study area. However, since the menopause I dont give a fudge! If people do not want to keep their home tidy, not my problem. My study is tidy and my room is tidy, that is all that matters to me. The rest not my problem he he


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