# Unwanted physical contact?



## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

Is there a difference between unwanted physical contact and outright physical abuse within a relationship? 

It seems to me that there’s a huge gray area here. 

For example, if one partner comes up and smacks the other partner’s rear and makes a comment about how good they look... that’s just being playful, right?
Well suppose that smack were on a different part of the body. Let’s say their arm. And it was accompanied by an insult. That’s more of a gray area, isn’t it? I mean it’s rude, yes. But I wouldnt say abusive. 
But where’s the line? 
Suppose partner A is upset and yelling at partner B. And partner A decides to get real close to partner B, screaming in their face, poking their chest for effect. Still in the gray area? It gets confusing.
If partner B is cornered and can’t get away, smacks partner A’s hand out of the way and tries to leave the room, are they now the aggressor? Or is it self defense? Or does depend on how things escalate?

Does this stuff even happen in other relationships?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

HorseShowMom said:


> Does this stuff even happen in other relationships?


Oh, yes, that kind of thing happens in other relationships. In fact, that kind of behavior is one of the reasons my ex husband is an ex.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> Is there a difference between unwanted physical contact and outright physical abuse within a relationship?
> 
> It seems to me that there’s a huge gray area here.


Yes it is a gray area, there is no perfectly clear sharp dividing line. 
And yes these things do happen in quite a lot of relationships. 



> Well suppose that smack were on a different part of the body. Let’s say their arm. And it was accompanied by an insult. That’s more of a gray area, isn’t it? I mean it’s rude, yes. But I wouldnt say abusive.
> But where’s the line?
> Suppose partner A is upset and yelling at partner B. And partner A decides to get real close to partner B, screaming in their face, poking their chest for effect. Still in the gray area? It gets confusing.
> If partner B is cornered and can’t get away, smacks partner A’s hand out of the way and tries to leave the room, are they now the aggressor? Or is it self defense? Or does depend on how things escalate?


I used to teach my children that whoever steps it up from rude words to actual physical contact is in trouble. But words can be abusive too. 

Not letting someone leave the room is pretty high up on the scale of offences. 



> partner A decides to get real close to partner B, screaming in their face, poking their chest for effect. Still in the gray area?


No. A question I might ask is what would happen if you did this to a friend, or a cop, or your boss? 

(Part of my job, unfortunately, is assessing such incidents).


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## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

It’s just tough sometimes to figure out where “the line” is and how to deal with it when I feel like things have gotten out of hand. 
After a few of these incidents I’ve tried to talk about it the next day and clarify some boundaries, but I get accused of “being dramatic” and “playing the victim”. That’s not my intent at all. So I tend to just leave it alone. I’m left wondering if it’s just me being too sensitive, or if there’s a real problem here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HorseShowMom said:


> Does this stuff even happen in other relationships?


The above was the last statement in your post, but I’m responding to it first because it’s the umbrella under which all of your questions exist.

Yes, this stuff happens in a lot of relationships and are a big problem.



HorseShowMom said:


> Is there a difference between unwanted physical contact and outright physical abuse within a relationship?


Absolutely there is. 


HorseShowMom said:


> It seems to me that there’s a huge gray area here.


There is a bit of a gray are with things like this example in your next quote.


HorseShowMom said:


> For example, if one partner comes up and smacks the other partner’s rear and makes a comment about how good they look... that’s just being playful, right?


Generally this is just being playful and is acceptable. However, if they smack you hard enough to actually hurt you or leave a mark, no it’s not just playful. If you have told him several times that you do not want to be touched/smacked like that and he keeps doing it, it’s abuse.


HorseShowMom said:


> Well suppose that smack were on a different part of the body. Let’s say their arm. And it was accompanied by an insult. That’s more of a gray area, isn’t it? I mean it’s rude, yes. But I wouldnt say abusive.


If he’s smacking you anywhere, to include your rear but he’s verbally insulting you, there is no gray area there. He’s abusing you. Insults are no ok. How is an insult a gray area? Smacking you anywhere while he’s verbally insulting you is just additional abuse. There is nothing playful about this at all.


HorseShowMom said:


> But where’s the line?


There are a few lines.

If you tell him that you do not want him to ever smack/hit you even if he thinks it’s playful, then he does it, it’s abuse.

If he hits/smacks you in anger, it’s abuse.

If you cannot tell the different, which you clearly have a problem doing, then tell him to stop ever hitting/smacking you. Tell him verbally and tell him in writing so that you have a record of telling him.


HorseShowMom said:


> Suppose partner A is upset and yelling at partner B. And partner A decides to get real close to partner B, screaming in their face, poking their chest for effect. Still in the gray area? It gets confusing.


No this is not a gray area. This is way over the top and abusive. You two should never be in any ‘discussion’ that gets to this point. Stop the discussion/argument long before it gets to this point. Go to another room. If he follows you lock the door. If he bangs on the door, yells at you through the door, etc. call 911. This is all threatening, intimidating behavior.


HorseShowMom said:


> If partner B is cornered and can’t get away, smacks partner A’s hand out of the way and tries to leave the room, are they now the aggressor? Or is it self defense? Or does depend on how things escalate?


What you describe is self-defense. Though it can be hard to prove. 

Cornering a person like that is a form of aggression. It’s dangerous for the cornered person. Again, you need to stop any interactions with him before it gets to that point, long before.

Have you asked him why he thinks it’s ok to do things to you like: smack/hit you, corner you, yell in your face, etc.?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

HorseShowMom said:


> .
> But where’s the line?


Strong personal boundaries, with consequences are your friend. 

It gets less gray how often these behaviors occur. Once, heck even once in a long while might be OK. Often/regularly occurring, it becomes more black and white.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I think it comes down to how welcome the physical touch is and what it’s meant to convey. 

If you’re getting scared and trying to get away that’s abusive. Nobody should ever have to feel afraid of their partner, ever. 

But even if the touch is meant in a loving way it’s still not ok if the person doesn’t want it. For example, since my kids were babies, patting their bum was something I did as a sign of affection. My youngest recently asked me to stop. She doesn’t like it. As hard as it’s been to train myself, I’ve stopped. I don’t think she’d use the word abusive if I kept doing it but it’s still not ok.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HorseShowMom said:


> It’s just tough sometimes to figure out where “the line” is and how to deal with it when I feel like things have gotten out of hand.
> After a few of these incidents I’ve tried to talk about it the next day and clarify some boundaries, but I get accused of “being dramatic” and “playing the victim”. That’s not my intent at all. So I tend to just leave it alone. I’m left wondering if it’s just me being too sensitive, or if there’s a real problem here.


So why do you buy into his making those sorts of accusations about you?

Instead of just leaving it alone, try standing up for yourself. The next time he says things like you are bing dramatic, playing victim, etc. look him in the eye and say something like...

"NO, listen to me. If you ever do anything like that again I am calling the police. I will NOT allow myself to be abused."

Then always have your cell phone on you. If he ever does anything like that again call 911.

He does these things because he knows you will allow him to. You have taught him that it's ok... sure you might piss and moan a bit over it but in the end you do nothing about it. 

It's now time for you to teach him that there are new rules in the house. 

I hope you don't think I'm putting you down here. What I'm trying to do is to cheer you on to do the very thing that will turn this all around.... set new rules and stand by them.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> It’s just tough sometimes to figure out where “the line” is and how to deal with it when I feel like things have gotten out of hand.
> After a few of these incidents I’ve tried to talk about it the next day and clarify some boundaries, but I get accused of “being dramatic” and “playing the victim”. That’s not my intent at all. So I tend to just leave it alone. I’m left wondering if it’s just me being too sensitive, or if there’s a real problem here.


In part it depends what leads to these situations. If there are certain things you are not "allowed" to do otherwise it leads to this threatening behaviour, then generally that is controlling and abusive.


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## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

A recent example would be the other night when I was cooking dinner and heard him yelling at our 5 year old. She shouldn’t have been in trouble, so I walked out of the kitchen and tried to stick up for her. He followed me back around the corner and pinned me up against the stove, hollering in my face and poking me. He was upset because I was interrupting his parenting. 
I should have stayed out of it. 

His whole thing is that if I don’t act like a lady, he won’t treat me like one. I shouldn’t square up and talk back to him unless I want a fight. 
I wasn’t mad. I wasn’t scared. But he’s 6’4” to my 5’2” and 220lbs of pure muscle. It’s not like I can just slip out of the room if he doesn’t want me to. 
I’m really running out of ways to keep the peace until finances are in order and he can move out!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HorseShowMom said:


> A recent example would be the other night when I was cooking dinner and heard him yelling at our 5 year old. She shouldn’t have been in trouble, so I walked out of the kitchen and tried to stick up for her. He followed me back around the corner and pinned me up against the stove, hollering in my face and poking me. He was upset because I was interrupting his parenting.
> I should have srayed out of it.
> 
> His whole thing is that if I don’t act like a lady, he won’t treat me like one. I shouldn’t square up and talk back to him unless I want a fight.
> ...


What was he yelling at your 5 year old for? What did she do?

Was he really yelling at her or just telling her sternly to stop something or not do something?


While I'd like the answer to the above questions, what you describe from him towards you is abusive. Pinning you against the stove, while food is cooking is a dangerous to add to the problem.

A parent should not undercut the other parent's parenting. If parent A has a problem with some parent that B is doing, it should be discussed in private so that the child cannot hear the disagreement. Parenting is a team effort.

However, if the two parents can't agree with each other's parenting decisions, it often ends in arguments about this in front of the child(ren). When this happens, the child(ren) will learn how to manipulate the parents so they can get away with just about anything. AT that point the child(ren) rule the home.

However, if parent B is being abusive, then parent A is right to stop the abuse. If abuse of the child is the norm, then parent A needs to find a way to stop the abuse.


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## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

The context of our daughter getting yelled at was this: 
He told her to go plug his phone in when he got home from work. She plugged it into the charger on the kitchen counter, not realizing that the usb end was not connected at the wall. She’s not tall enough to see it, even if she would have thought to check. 
He came in the house looking for his phone an hour later, and it was not charged. 
So she was getting yelled at for being lazy and not following directions. 
My problem, aside from the yelling and calling her lazy, was that she had done what he asked to the best of her ability. I didn’t think he was being fair, and she was crying because she didn’t understand that both ends of the cord had to be plugged in, so she kept just saying “I DID do it- I promise!”.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

HorseShowMom said:


> It’s just tough sometimes to figure out where “the line” is and how to deal with it when I feel like things have gotten out of hand.
> After a few of these incidents I’ve tried to talk about it the next day and clarify some boundaries, but I get accused of “being dramatic” and “playing the victim”. That’s not my intent at all. So I tend to just leave it alone. I’m left wondering if it’s just me being too sensitive, or if there’s a real problem here.


It's called "your personal boundaries." You get to decide what they are. That's not being dramatic or playing the victim. You are the victim of a person who doesn't respect your right to determine and have your own boundaries.

He is playing mind games with you, trying to make you doubt yourself. And that's called "emotional abuse."

You can add that to the long list of ways he abuses you.

In my home, no one is allowed to touch or be within arm's length of another if they are angry...and screaming, or the other person will feel threatened. Actually no one screams at anyone in my home, but we do get louder and emotional sometimes.

If you wouldn't do it to a colleague, or friend, then it shouldn't be done to family either. The policeman example is not valid IMO, because they are not in a relationship with me, and we would never have even a low key emotional exchange much less a highly charged one.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

HorseShowMom said:


> The context of our daughter getting yelled at was this:
> He told her to go plug his phone in when he got home from work. She plugged it into the charger on the kitchen counter, not realizing that the usb end was not connected at the wall. She’s not tall enough to see it, even if she would have thought to check.
> He came in the house looking for his phone an hour later, and it was not charged.
> So she was getting yelled at for being lazy and not following directions.
> My problem, aside from the yelling and calling her lazy, was that she had done what he asked to the best of her ability. I didn’t think he was being fair, and she was crying because she didn’t understand that both ends of the cord had to be plugged in, so she kept just saying “I DID do it- I promise!”.


This made me so sad to read. Your poor daughter. Your husband is an animal. He seems to have no capacity to process the situation and control his response based on the situation.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

HorseShowMom said:


> A recent example would be the other night when I was cooking dinner and heard him yelling at our 5 year old. She shouldn’t have been in trouble, so I walked out of the kitchen and tried to stick up for her. *He followed me back around the corner and pinned me up against the stove, hollering in my face and poking me.* He was upset because I was interrupting his parenting.
> I should have stayed out of it.
> 
> His whole thing is that if I don’t act like a lady, he won’t treat me like one. I shouldn’t square up and talk back to him unless I want a fight.
> ...


The bolded part is when I would have told him not touch me and back up immediately because I will call the police. If he refused, as soon as I could, I'd call the police.

He is abusive and a bully who thinks there are no consequences for his actions.


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## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

Another consideration would be the fact that he had been drinking. He’s not nearly as bad sober, and I don’t think any of that would have happened without a couple bottles of wine involved. I try not to take as much offense to the things he does while he’s drinking, since he’s not exactly in control of his actions.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

@HorseShowMom, did he drink a couple of bottles of wine when you met him or did that escalate later on?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> Suppose partner A is upset and yelling at partner B. And partner A decides to get real close to partner B, screaming in their face, poking their chest for effect. Still in the gray area?


No!!!!!

Not gray at all. Not in the slightest. That is pure black, not even the tiniest bit gray. That is abuse. And it is something nobody should EVER do to a spouse. Period. Dot. End of discussion.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HorseShowMom said:


> Another consideration would be the fact that he had been drinking. He’s not nearly as bad sober, and I don’t think any of that would have happened without a couple bottles of wine involved. I try not to take as much offense to the things he does while he’s drinking, since he’s not exactly in control of his actions.


A couple of bottles of wine? He comes home and consumes a couple of bottles of wine within an hour or so of coming home from work?

The fact that he was drunk does not excuse or mitigate his abuse of you and your daughter.

What you are saying here is that he is a man drunk.

What is going on in your relationship is called "codependency". That's when one spouse keeps being over backwards and making excuses for the other. In your case you are putting your own needs and your daughters needs aside to enable your husband's alcohol addiction and his abusive behavior.

Here is a link to a book that will help you learn to stop enabling your husband's alcohol addiction and abusive behavior....

*Codependent No More & Beyond Codependency*

Did you grow up in a home with abusive and/or alcoholic parents?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> A recent example would be the other night when I was cooking dinner and heard him yelling at our 5 year old. She shouldn’t have been in trouble, so I walked out of the kitchen and tried to stick up for her. He followed me back around the corner and pinned me up against the stove, hollering in my face and poking me. He was upset because I was interrupting his parenting.
> I should have stayed out of it.
> 
> His whole thing is that if I don’t act like a lady, he won’t treat me like one. I shouldn’t square up and talk back to him unless I want a fight.
> ...


This is a recent example of why you need to get out of there... like _yesterday!_

There's nothing in the definition of acting like a lady that includes allowing your offspring to be abused.

And if one thing is clear, he's not going to treat you like a lady no matter how you act. He will assign fault even when there is none and demean you in some way no matter what you do. He has serious issues that have NOTHING to do with you, but he isnt man enough to face them so he transfers all that self loathing onto you. It'd be nothing more than pathetic if it wasn't also dangerous. 

PLEASE..... stop letting him make you think his piss poor behavior is in any way your fault.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HorseShowMom said:


> The context of our daughter getting yelled at was this:
> He told her to go plug his phone in when he got home from work. She plugged it into the charger on the kitchen counter, not realizing that the usb end was not connected at the wall. She’s not tall enough to see it, even if she would have thought to check.
> He came in the house looking for his phone an hour later, and it was not charged.
> So she was getting yelled at for being lazy and not following directions.
> My problem, aside from the yelling and calling her lazy, was that she had done what he asked to the best of her ability. I didn’t think he was being fair, and she was crying because she didn’t understand that both ends of the cord had to be plugged in, so she kept just saying “I DID do it- I promise!”.


OK, you were right to stop him from yelling at your daughter. Does he do this sort of thing to her often?

Abuse like this can really harm a child for life. They have found that the one thing that makes the difference between a child who is seriously harmed by abuse like this and those who are not whether or the child had someone who advocate for them and to assure them that they were not in the wrong and that the abuser was in the wrong.

You stood up for her and took a verbal beating for it. Good for you.

If you can afford it, please get your daughter in counseling so she also has a counselor to help her deal with her father's verbal abuse of her and all the anger and fighting she is witnessing at home.

Please take care of your daughter. She cannot do it for herself. You are the only person who can do this.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> Another consideration would be the fact that he had been drinking. He’s not nearly as bad sober, and I don’t think any of that would have happened without a couple bottles of wine involved. I try not to take as much offense to the things he does while he’s drinking, since he’s not exactly in control of his actions.


As the son of an alcoholic who could be a mean drunk, I can tell you this IS NO EXCUSE!!!!

it's good you know to not take it personally, but you really should never have to take it at all. 

He chose to drink.... and he knows how he behaves when he drinks. He knows ALL of this.

And even if drunk, he IS in control of his actions IF HE WANTS TO BE. If he gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone whole drunk, he's 100% responsible. If he abuses you while drunk, he's 100% responsible. Period. 


The alcohol made him do it
The kids made him do it.
You made him do it.
See a pattern here?

Time to put accountability where it belongs!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I'm reminded of when you said yes yells at you about finances. 

Yet he knocks back a couple bottles of wine in a single sitting. 

And I know this is not an isolated incident... people who can do that drink a great deal. I bet he's got a pretty significant alcohol budget. This is something that is taking from family resources and providing nothing whatsoever back to the family.... except abuse, pain, and misery. 

What's more, people who drink like that often make other poor decisions... including other financial ones.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

I concur absolutely with every word of EleGirl's post - post #5.

From what you write your husband has severe personality problems, made worse because he is what most would call an alcoholic.

Without treatment his behaviour is very likely to become more unreasonable and more violent.

Do you have family you and your daughter could seek refuge with. If not I advise that you find out what options you have - talk to a professional (not a pastor/priest unless they have relevant secular training) - perhaps an honest discussion with your family doctor is the best place to start?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Nothing you've related is part of a normal relationship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

HorseShowMom said:


> Is there a difference between unwanted physical contact and outright physical abuse within a relationship?
> 
> It seems to me that there’s a huge gray area here.
> 
> ...


Hun, I want to say this gently as to not upset you but it really sounds like from your posts you have a real hard time figuring out what is inappropriate and most of the times what you write about would be huge red flags. The first example sounds like playful flirting which has nothing at all to do with the kind of abusive intimidation the rest of your paragraph is about. 

Can I ask you was their abuse in your childhood? Was this kind of stuff normal when you were growing up?

I think you really should think about getting some counseling.

Now I don't want you to feel bad about that but I think you need a larger perspective.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

He uses Fear, intimation, physical size Power, to Control, Why is he having a 5yr old to do his personal work for his phone. It's all abuse, and l repeat again what has happened in your life to believe you must endure this. Yeah l know his type he thinks he's a man pushing a woman and child around to make himself feeling manly. And another man would probably knock him on his butt. Is why he does this to you.

Your in a prison, you just get to go shopping sometimes. What a sad life. Leave the asshat.


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## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

I don’t know how to put this without sounding stupid. I’ve been aware that I’m in a difficult, often terrible relationship. I’m not one to give up when things get tough, and when I married him I took those vows seriously. 
I’ve been trying for years to be the wife he wants me to be, without much success. I reached a point just after last Christmas that I thought I’d be better off dead, and began making arrangements for the children and H to continue on without me. When the time came, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t leave my babies. I called my doctor and got help. So I’ve been in therapy and taking antidepressants since January. It has come up more recently that I am, in fact, in an abusive relationship. My therapist has no idea the extent of the situation and I’m not yet comfortable telling her. I am currently at the point of accepting the situation for what it is and working on a plan to end the marriage with as little pain and drama as possible for the whole family. It’s not been easy for me to give up on us. I feel so guilty. Part of me keeps saying “it’s not that bad” and “he doesn’t mean to hurt me”, “he just doesn’t understand” and “if I do better, he’ll be nicer to me”. I guess it just helps to hear that I’m not overreacting. That leaving the marriage, with 3 young kids, is really the best thing to do. I’m sure this isn’t fun for anyone to talk about, and I thank those if you who have responded honestly. I need to hear it. I need to know I’m not being irrational. It’s really helped to feel less alone for the last few days. But I don’t want to beat a dead horse, so to speak. Probably better if I don’t post anymore. It’ll be hell on earth for the next few years, I’m sure. But I’ll survive. Thanks 🙂


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

HorseShowMom said:


> I don’t know how to put this without sounding stupid. I’ve been aware that I’m in a difficult, often terrible relationship. I’m not one to give up when things get tough, and when I married him I took those vows seriously.
> I’ve been trying for years to be the wife he wants me to be, without much success. I reached a point just after last Christmas that I thought I’d be better off dead, and began making arrangements for the children and H to continue on without me. When the time came, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t leave my babies. I called my doctor and got help. So I’ve been in therapy and taking antidepressants since January. It has come up more recently that I am, in fact, in an abusive relationship. My therapist has no idea the extent of the situation and I’m not yet comfortable telling her. I am currently at the point of accepting the situation for what it is and working on a plan to end the marriage with as little pain and drama as possible for the whole family. It’s not been easy for me to give up on us. I feel so guilty. Part of me keeps saying “it’s not that bad” and “he doesn’t mean to hurt me”, “he just doesn’t understand” and “if I do better, he’ll be nicer to me”. I guess it just helps to hear that I’m not overreacting. That leaving the marriage, with 3 young kids, is really the best thing to do. I’m sure this isn’t fun for anyone to talk about, and I thank those if you who have responded honestly. I need to hear it. I need to know I’m not being irrational. It’s really helped to feel less alone for the last few days. But I don’t want to beat a dead horse, so to speak. Probably better if I don’t post anymore. It’ll be hell on earth for the next few years, I’m sure. But I’ll survive. Thanks 🙂


It's not you, it has never been you that is the problem.

Take care of yourself and be careful.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are you a SAHM (stay at home mom)? 

Do you have access to money, or does he control it?

Do you have friends and family who can give you emotional support?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

HorseShowMom said:


> The context of our daughter getting yelled at was this:
> He told her to go plug his phone in when he got home from work. She plugged it into the charger on the kitchen counter, not realizing that the usb end was not connected at the wall. She’s not tall enough to see it, even if she would have thought to check.
> He came in the house looking for his phone an hour later, and it was not charged.
> So she was getting yelled at for being lazy and not following directions.
> My problem, aside from the yelling and calling her lazy, was that she had done what he asked to the best of her ability. I didn’t think he was being fair, and she was crying because she didn’t understand that both ends of the cord had to be plugged in, so she kept just saying “I DID do it- I promise!”.


Anyone who orders a child of five to mess with mains electrical stuff is an utter idiot and an abusive, feckless, idle, useless parent. He is a menace and the sooner you get rid, the better.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> I don’t know how to put this without sounding stupid.


You are not stupid. From what you describe, you are thinking clearly. 



> I reached a point just after last Christmas that I thought I’d be better off dead, and began making arrangements for the children and H to continue on without me. When the time came, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t leave my babies.


I am glad you decided that. 



> It has come up more recently that I am, in fact, in an abusive relationship. My therapist has no idea the extent of the situation and I’m not yet comfortable telling her.


You are kind of wasting time and money if you're not telling your therapist the whole thing. We've heard it all (and worse) before. 



> I am currently at the point of accepting the situation for what it is and working on a plan to end the marriage with as little pain and drama as possible for the whole family. It’s not been easy for me to give up on us. I feel so guilty. Part of me keeps saying “it’s not that bad” and “he doesn’t mean to hurt me”, “he just doesn’t understand”


That's all OK



> and “if I do better, he’ll be nicer to me”.


No, that *isn't* OK. It's not on you. 

Please talk more fully to your therapist. 

And let me give you the speech I give clients: it's when you announce your departure that it gets the most physically dangerous. So don't do that until you have all your plans and emergency phone numbers in place. Just in case.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@HorseShowMom, if there *is* a person acting in a stupid fashion in your relationship, it's not you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

HorseShowMom said:


> Well suppose that smack were on a different part of the body. Let’s say their arm. And it was accompanied by an insult. That’s more of a gray area, isn’t it? I mean it’s rude, yes. But I wouldnt say abusive.
> But where’s the line?


You're the poster with the abusive alcoholic for a husband, and you jump around like a trained seal trying to meet all his 'demands.'

I think the line has been blurred horribly for you because this type of treatment is the norm for you, not the exception. Because of that, your ability to see things clearly has been greatly eroded to the point where you can't be objective anymore and just see a lot 'grey' areas.

While you may be too weak or unmotivated to want a better life for yourself, don't you at _least _want to provide a safer, healthier and happier environment in which to raise your KIDS? Don't you think they deserve better than the **** show they're being forced to live in?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

HSM, I really hope you dont stop posting, you for sure need support and encouragement. Please also be fully open with your therapist, that is the only way to be able to make true progress. I posted on your other thread supporting that you leave him, and will follow both hoping you are able to get out sooner than later.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

HorseShowMom said:


> It’s just tough sometimes to figure out where “the line” is and how to deal with it when I feel like things have gotten out of hand.
> After a few of these incidents I’ve tried to talk about it the next day and clarify some boundaries, but I get accused of “being dramatic” and “playing the victim”. That’s not my intent at all. So I tend to just leave it alone. I’m left wondering if it’s just me being too sensitive, or if there’s a real problem here.


The line is where you draw it. YOU decide what you will and will not tolerate in a relationship. By telling you that you're being dramatic and playing the victim - he is gaslighting the hell out of you.

Look bottom line - you should never feel scared or threatened in a relationship. That is not normal at all.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

@HorseShowMom NO, these are not grey areas. He is an abuser and a drunk, and based on your other thread a rapist. . Nothing grey, all black. 

It stops being grey when someone does something like that they they know the other person doesn't want. 

So - slapping your partner playfully on the butt? OK if done in fun AND you think they enjoy it. (which some people do). Not OK as soon as you find out that they don't want it. Grey if they sometimes do and you make an honest mistake about how they are feeling at the moment.

Getting upset happens in relationships, and sometimes people shout - but it should be rare. Anything that feels like a threat is not grey - its black. Getting angry at a young child in any way that is not intended *entirely* for the good of the child is BLACK. If a child runs into the street - then it may be OK to shout at them if you believe that will make them remember better - because you are trying to protect them. But shouting at child for failing to do a chore correctly is just evil


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> Is there a difference between unwanted physical contact and outright physical abuse within a relationship?
> 
> It seems to me that there’s a huge gray area here.


Physical abuse is any intentional and unwanted contact with you or your body. Period. There's not really a lot of "gray area" but let's look at the examples you gave:



> For example, if one partner comes up and smacks the other partner’s rear and makes a comment about how good they look... that’s just being playful, right?


The partner who smacked (A) may think of it as playful, but the partner who was smacked (B) may NOT. Partner B may have asked A many times to not do that, that it feels demeaning or scary or that they just plain don't like it! Thus, even if Partner A 'claims' that it was playful, if it's after repeated requests to stop, it's abuse: intentional and unwanted contact. Also, just so you know, I usually add one more thing to my own personal definition of abuse: "Intentional, unwanted, and with the intent to intimidate or control." In this example, if Partner B had repeated asked A to stop, and A still did it anyway claiming it was playful, guess what? It wasn't an accident, it wasn't wanted, AND really A is wanting B to do what A wants...the way A wants it...when A wants it...how A wants it. The intent is to control. 



> Well suppose that smack were on a different part of the body. Let’s say their arm. And it was accompanied by an insult. That’s more of a gray area, isn’t it? I mean it’s rude, yes. But I wouldnt say abusive.


Let's look at the definitions: "Intentional, unwanted, intimidating or controling...." If you were walking down the street and ran into a random stranger, do you have the legal right to smack them in the arm and insult them? Or is that assault? Okay, it won't be the roughest of assaults, and you being a teeny little thing, it may not do damage, but assault does not require damage--it requires laying a hand on someone else. That's just LEGAL assault! How about a moral right? Would you have a moral right to just walk up to a stranger and smack them in the arm and insult them? We're talking "right and wrong" morality--not pulling religion into this (although ya could). Just common sense "right and wrong"--okay to walk up to a stranger, insult them and smack them in the arm? If it's "wrong" and you owe that stranger NOTHING, don't love them, and haven't built a LIFE with them...then why would it be "less wrong" to do that to someone you DO love and have built a life with? You would treat the one you love BETTER than a complete stranger--not worse. SO yep, even this is abuse. A verbally abused with the insult and physically abused by intentionally smacking the arm, the smack was unwanted, and the intent of the smack was to intimate B into being who A wants them to be, or to control B into doing what A wants B to do. 



> But where’s the line?


Oh that's easy. All physical touch should be loving, gentle, kind, wanted, and with the intent of pleasing or enjoying. 



> Suppose partner A is upset and yelling at partner B. And partner A decides to get real close to partner B, screaming in their face, poking their chest for effect. Still in the gray area? It gets confusing.


Nope, not gray. Let's look at the definition: "Intentional, unwanted, intimidating or controling...." A is angry and yelling at B. A INTENTIONALLY gets in B's face and screams AND pokes the chest. A is touching B in an unwanted way. And A is getting physical with the intent of intimating or controlling B. This is physical abuse. 



> If partner B is cornered and can’t get away, smacks partner A’s hand out of the way and tries to leave the room, are they now the aggressor? Or is it self defense? Or does depend on how things escalate?


What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if A now calls the cops, B is the one who put hands on another (remember, damage is not required for assault) and B is now the one who's going to possibly face charges, especially if A pursues it. Sometimes these days, if cops are called, it's not as if A and B get to decide to press or drop charges either--the police, on behalf of "The State" or "The County" will press charges when there is sufficient evidence so that the abuser can not convince the victim anymore. In your example, yep it is self-defense and yet the first one to lay on hands was B. 



> Does this stuff even happen in other relationships?]/quote]
> 
> It happens in other abusive relationships, but not in healthy or happy ones!
> 
> ...


Let me just say this: I think you could have brought it up to him in a way that didn't undermine him in front of the kids, but screaming at a 5yo and calling a very young child names is verbally abusive. So you didn't do the perfect job--but you did stand up for your child and stop the 5yo from being abused further. And he followed up that verbal abuse with physically and verbally and emotionally abusing you. Yes, verbal was "hollering in your face" - emotional was threatening and ordering you - physical was pinning you against the stove and poking you. 



> His whole thing is that if I don’t act like a lady, he won’t treat me like one. I shouldn’t square up and talk back to him unless I want a fight.


Who died and made him god? If he doesn't act like a gentleman, you won't treat him like one. If he doesn't want a fight, he shouldn't sass back to you or square up against you. Can you IMAGINE saying that to him and meaning it? Then why in the world can he even think of speaking like that to you? He is not your dad. 



> I wasn’t mad. I wasn’t scared. But he’s 6’4” to my 5’2” and 220lbs of pure muscle. It’s not like I can just slip out of the room if he doesn’t want me to. I’m really running out of ways to keep the peace until finances are in order and he can move out!


Keep the peace by being away from him. I get it--you can't move out and he can't yet either. So stay away from him. When he's home, be gone, and take the kids with you. You can go to a park or be outside, go to a friend's house, go on play dates with your kids' friends, do ANYTHING to just be out of his presence. And likewise, if you happen to be home when he gets home, just go into your room and close and lock the door. You and the kids can just spend your nights together away from him. If he threats or kicks the door down, just call the police. 



> So she was getting yelled at for being lazy and not following directions. My problem, aside from the yelling and calling her lazy, was that she had done what he asked to the best of her ability. I didn’t think he was being fair, and she was crying because she didn’t understand that both ends of the cord had to be plugged in, so she kept just saying “I DID do it- I promise!”.


So the issue here is NOT whether you were right or wrong. It's not whether your parenting was reasonable and his parenting was unreasonable. The issue here is whether it is abusive to yell at a 5yo, whether calling a 5yo names with the intent to shame is abusive, whether blaming a 5yo for his responsibility is abusive. Let's look at the definition: "Intentional, unwanted, intimidating or controling...."

He is not "accidentally" raging. He is not accidentally calling the 5yo names. He is not accidentally blaming the 5yo for his responsibilities. So it is INTENTIONAL. The 5yo does not want to be raged at. The 5yo does not want to be called shameful names. The 5yo does not want to accept responsibility for someone else's tasks. So it is UNWANTED. The rage has the intent to intimidate or control the 5yo. The calling shameful names has the intent to intimidate or control the 5yo. The blame has the intent to intimidate or control the 5yo. So it is INTIMIDATING AND CONTROLLING. 

It is abuse. 

Now, it seems to be that you don't have a very clear idea of what abuse is and is not: emotional, mental, verbal, financial, or physical. So I suggest you start at this site: Welcome to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site|Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)! and I suggest that you read the Verbal Abuse tab, The Abuser tab, The Victim tab, and Co-dependency tab. Now, this site it older and is not updated, but the info here is SUPER helpful, and since the site mascot is a cat, it makes the info a little less scary. 

Some additional info: https://www.loveisrespect.org/is-this-abuse/

A great TED Talk about the difference between a healthy and unhealthy love:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Tell just this story to your therapist or your friends, or your family. See if there is anyone anywhere who thinks that your husband shouting at a 5 year old girl because she didn't know how to plug in a cell phone charger is OK. 

What this is supposed to look like: He is supposed to say "can you help daddy by charging his cell phone". Then watches here as she plugs in the connector -ready with at "here let me show you the trick" if she has trouble. If she drops it, the response is "that's OK, not your fault its very slippery". 

A father does not berate his 5 year old girl. Ever. 

Years ago we had a friend and their small kids over at our place and the kids were playing on the floor with their toys. We weren't paying attention and they moved off of the run and onto the good wood floors - and scratched the #@&# out of them. They were kids. I didn't yell at them - they had no idea. I just moved them back onto the rug and watched more closely. Children can only be responsible for things that they understand, and at a young age that is almost nothing. 

Healthy adults understand what children are capable of doing, and the only "chores" you give a 5 year old are things that are actually intended to teach her and help her. 

You haven't been on this site long, but I have and I'm pretty well known here for being very non-judgmental and slow to condemn people. Your husband as a bad and dangerous person and you need to get yourself and your child away as quickly as you can. 





HorseShowMom said:


> The context of our daughter getting yelled at was this:
> He told her to go plug his phone in when he got home from work. She plugged it into the charger on the kitchen counter, not realizing that the usb end was not connected at the wall. She’s not tall enough to see it, even if she would have thought to check.
> He came in the house looking for his phone an hour later, and it was not charged.
> So she was getting yelled at for being lazy and not following directions.
> My problem, aside from the yelling and calling her lazy, was that she had done what he asked to the best of her ability. I didn’t think he was being fair, and she was crying because she didn’t understand that both ends of the cord had to be plugged in, so she kept just saying “I DID do it- I promise!”.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

HorseShowMom said:


> A recent example would be the other night when I was cooking dinner and heard him yelling at our 5 year old. She shouldn’t have been in trouble, so I walked out of the kitchen and tried to stick up for her. He followed me back around the corner and pinned me up against the stove, hollering in my face and poking me. He was upset because I was interrupting his parenting.
> I should have stayed out of it.
> 
> His whole thing is that if I don’t act like a lady, he won’t treat me like one. I shouldn’t square up and talk back to him unless I want a fight.
> ...


If he ever hollers at you while pinning you against the stove, or similar, that's way out of line.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If you read the rest of her story, he is is way way out of line. His actions include shouting at a 5 year old about something the child could not have possibly known. Coerceing his wife into sex by threatening to have sex in front of their daughter. Raping his wife. This guy belongs in prison. 








Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If he ever hollers at you while pinning you against the stove, or similar, that's way out of line.


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## HorseShowMom (Oct 7, 2019)

*I did a thing today*

I was in town getting new tires on the car had a couple hours to kill, so I went over to the family crisis intervention center that my therapist had recommended a few months ago and spoke to one of the advocates. I went ahead and did the paperwork and am eligible for acceptance to their safe house, should that become necessary. I was also able to get information on parenting classes and a domestic violence support group that I was assured would be of benefit. They offer legal aid & advice as well, but I’m not quite there yet. Anyway, it felt like a logical next step even if I was shaking and about to pass out walking in there.That was seriously one of the most terrifying things I’ve ever done, but at least I’m in the system now and have access to help if things get out of hand again. Thanks for everything, y’all. I’m getting there.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I am so glad to hear that.

Please let any of us know if you need help navigating they system. There are here who will help if they can. 

Do you have family or friends you can go to? 






HorseShowMom said:


> *I did a thing today*
> 
> I was in town getting new tires on the car had a couple hours to kill, so I went over to the family crisis intervention center that my therapist had recommended a few months ago and spoke to one of the advocates. I went ahead and did the paperwork and am eligible for acceptance to their safe house, should that become necessary. I was also able to get information on parenting classes and a domestic violence support group that I was assured would be of benefit. They offer legal aid & advice as well, but I’m not quite there yet. Anyway, it felt like a logical next step even if I was shaking and about to pass out walking in there.That was seriously one of the most terrifying things I’ve ever done, but at least I’m in the system now and have access to help if things get out of hand again. Thanks for everything, y’all. I’m getting there.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Good for you, a step in the right direction! I know it’s scary but you did awesome. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Going to a family crisis center was a huge positive step. You were very courageous. Continue in this way.

Children suffer more than you could ever know when they live in an abusive home! They blame themselves. Some grow up to be abusers. They worry constantly and have trouble making decisions.

Your husband is an abusive alcoholic. You do not have a marriage, but instead it is a war zone. Your husband has no reason to change. What sane man bullies his children? His wife?

I stayed in an abusive marriage because I thought this was part of the 'better or worse'. It is not. God did not intend for me to be killed in an abusive relationship. He expected me to have enough sense and gumption to protect my children. I finally left because they were begging me to do so. I was scared and foolish and stayed too long. Don't be me. You owe it to yourself and your kids to leave as soon as possible. The longer you wait, the harder it will be. 

The center can give you explicit instructions in how to proceed.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Glad you are back. Good move.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Any behavior that YOU find intimidating or makes you feel unsafe is inappropriate. 

It doesn't matter how he characterizes his behavior. Once he knows how his behavior is being received by you, he should stop it.

He obviously enjoys it otherwise why wouldn't he stop it?
The fact that he's continuing the behavior that you find intimidating is BULLYING.

Calling you over dramatic is bully talk. Accusing you of pushing his buttons (blaming you) is also typical bully talk. 

Can you talk with his mother or father? There son is not acting like a man nor as a father (yelling at a 5yo???).

If you can prove his kind of parenting to a judge, he will only have supervised visitation rights (if any).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

uhtred said:


> If you read the rest of her story, he is is way way out of line. His actions include shouting at a 5 year old about something the child could not have possibly known. Coerceing his wife into sex by threatening to have sex in front of their daughter. Raping his wife. This guy belongs in prison.


That's all horrible, horrible stuff.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

HorseShowMom said:


> Another consideration would be the fact that he had been drinking. He’s not nearly as bad sober, and I don’t think any of that would have happened without a couple bottles of wine involved. I try not to take as much offense to the things he does while he’s drinking, since he’s not exactly in control of his actions.


Don’t minimize, this is how people stay in abusive relationships.



HorseShowMom said:


> *I did a thing today*
> 
> I was in town getting new tires on the car had a couple hours to kill, so I went over to the family crisis intervention center that my therapist had recommended a few months ago and spoke to one of the advocates. I went ahead and did the paperwork and am eligible for acceptance to their safe house, should that become necessary. I was also able to get information on parenting classes and a domestic violence support group that I was assured would be of benefit. They offer legal aid & advice as well, but I’m not quite there yet. Anyway, it felt like a logical next step even if I was shaking and about to pass out walking in there.That was seriously one of the most terrifying things I’ve ever done, but at least I’m in the system now and have access to help if things get out of hand again. Thanks for everything, y’all. I’m getting there.


It is already necessary. Please, leave.


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