# Can we talk about privacy vs secrets, transparency and trus in recovery?



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

OK, one of the main tools in reconciliation is transparency and how it's so vital to the BS in healing. I think we all know the basics of what is secretive vs private yet it's so hard to put in practice. 

Emotional transparency is a big one for me.....should our spouses reveal every thought and emotion...even if they can wound us again? Like should they mention when they are thinking of the AP (assuming it's over and NC)? Should they share when they see a hot person walking down the street or have sexual thoughts of another person? Should they share sexual fantasies no matter how trivial? How much do we as BS have a "right" to know what goes on in their head? 

I struggle with the feeling that I am "pulling" info from him. He doesn't volunteer emotional thoughts easily. Which led him to his EA....he has conflict avoidance combined with antisocial behavior which leads to a really "quiet" marriage. I'm the talker and he's the avoid-er. I'm tired of offering a safe place to share.....it's draining. 

I've always felt like he has "held back" himself in this marriage. Like he's not completely checked in emotionally...shyness, crappy childhood and his social anxiety has made a lethal combo. 

This leads to my other question of "rebuilding trust".....how do you fully trust someone when they have a secretive nature to begin with and then you throw in a EA or affair on top of that...... for me it feels like a house build on sand. Unsafe??? 


What tools are you using to help in recovery from their affair?


----------



## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> Should they share when they see a hot person walking down the street or have sexual thoughts of another person? Should they share sexual fantasies no matter how trivial?


I don't have first hand experience, but i'm guessing no BS can handle that while trying to work through a R. Hell, i know i could not handle that even in a non problematic relationship. 

Do i really need my partner telling me she would not mind banging Brad Pitt? Heck no. Humans are sexual beings but there is no need to dwell in what is inconsequential. 

There isn't a fully functional human that hasn't the occasional sexual attraction for someone other than his/her partner. To rub that on your partner would just be negative in all sorts of ways.


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

"*I struggle with the feeling that I am "pulling" info from him. He doesn't volunteer emotional thoughts easily. Which led him to his EA....he has conflict avoidance combined with antisocial behavior which leads to a really "quiet" marriage. I'm the talker and he's the avoid-er. I'm tired of offering a safe place to share.....it's draining. 

I've always felt like he has "held back" himself in this marriage. Like he's not completely checked in emotionally...shyness, crappy childhood and his social anxiety has made a lethal combo. 

This leads to my other question of "rebuilding trust".....how do you fully trust someone when they have a secretive nature to begin with and then you throw in a EA or affair on top of that...... for me it feels like a house build on sand. Unsafe???*":iagree:

UMMMM, Are you me and are you married to my husband in an alternate universe? 

I could have written this exact post. It is indeed a lethal combo if they choose to remain in this state. I agree that it is emotionally draining on us. The ones 'dragging' emotion out of them. And when they fall apart-its epic. 

I dont have much advice to offer. Just some support and good wishes. And to say someone totally understands what youre saying.

And just to add my opinion. NO, I dont want him to tell me his every thought about his AP. I listened to him talk about her for months on end. Incessantly. Uncontrollably. So I have no need for him to let me know IF he is wasting even more of our time together with thoughts of HER. If I ask a question regarding her- I expect an answer. Otherwise, no thanks. Dont bring her up at random. Ive had enough of that for a lifetime.

CTU


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My hubby is similar to yours - he doesn't share things from his head. He has some kind of weird filter too - he processes things very differently than most people. For example, a couple weeks ago we had a huge hailstorm that wiped out our garden. On Monday there was an emergency broadcast as i went home from work that there were tornado and hail warnings again. So when I got home I went inside and said hi, then I started to ask him if he thought our tent trailer should be set down or not. I don't know what he heard, but suddenly he was angrily running out the door into the rain to set it down. Apparently me starting a conversation about whether it was necessary translated into a demand for him to immediately drop everything and run to do what I said. 

After we had it set down I asked him why he did what he did. He was still angry at me. He finally apologized and left for his SA meeting, but I was left wondering what the hell happened and feeling totally off kilter. When he got home he acted like nothing happened. Finally last night we were able to talk rationally about the whole episode, but that was only because I broached the subject. He would have happily never brought it up again. And that scares me because he buried resentment towards me for years which led to him cheating.

As far as him sharing sexual thoughts and stuff, no I do not think he should have to do that. I wouldn't want to have to tell him everything that goes through my head. What I think he does need to share are any type of thoughts of acting out again. Not thoughts of "oh, she's hot" but thoughts of actual planning to act out in the ways he was before, or in new ways. We've talked about this, especially since he doesn't have an SA sponsor right now, and I am confident he has things in order as far as seeking help if he needs it.

As for how do you trust again? Well, I will probably never fully trust him, but then I never did to begin with. I actually trust him more now in a lot of ways though, because now he is being forced NOT to be so secretive. Of course, he could just go sign up for a new secret email and a new secret cell phone and all that, but since we know what led to things deteriorating in our marriage before he cheated, and we're both working hard on them, and we're both far happier together now, I trust that it won't get to that point again for him. And I also trust that if, despite all that, he decides to cheat again, I will find out at some point and that will be that.


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I see your point there, that I get..you would have to possess awesome self esteem to handle that.... I'm thinking along the lines of should they tell you if they feel a longing or dissatisfaction in the relationship? I guess that's under emotional transparency? How much of their behavior should they share 

I know in my case I was unaware that he was feeling neglected, he never voiced that to me, but it was his "excuse" to have a EA. Naturally I want to "know" how he is feeling as a way to protect from future affairs and build upon but I can't force that info from him. How does someone learn to be transparent? 

Should they tell you if they view porn, craigslist ads, watch cinemax or even self sex? If they go out with girlfriends and flirt with hot guys ? Should they share they read 50 shades of gray and wish you were like Christian? Should they share they love Creed? 

 I joke because I remember that scene in Crazy Stupid Love where she confessed she went to see Twilight. 

ON a serious note, everyone says give it time, trust can be earned back but how when they are so private to begin with?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Another one here who understand. My husband has a hard time talking about how he feels. I find it kinda funny since HE was the one who insisted we needed to communicate more.... when I try, he shuts down. Some days are better than others, but when it's like I said here, it's frustrating. Sometimes I wanna rip my hair out. 

Regarding fantasies and finding other people attractive? Not really something I want to have him telling me on a regular basis. Now, if it is a fantasy about what to do with me, sure, I'm game. But I don't need to hear if he is fantasizing about a celebrity or the next door neighbor. Nor does he need to hear about my fascination with Orlando Bloom (don't be hatin'!) But you get my point? I don't want him thinking he isn't man enough for me, and comparing himself to some celebrity.


----------



## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> Apparently me starting a conversation about whether it was necessary translated into a demand for him to immediately drop everything and run to do what I said.
> 
> After we had it set down I asked him why he did what he did. He was still angry at me.


Sounds like he has some issues about being accused (or hinted at) of not handling things right. Specially in a stressful situation.


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

*Wow, do I feel so much better knowing that other people are married to "quiet" ones. Sometimes I feel like I am swimming upstream in dealing with his reluctance to share. 

One of his biggest "secrets" that he carried for 12 years were his fantasies and what turned him on sexually. When he actually shared them, they were pretty tame...generic stuff he saw through years of porn watching....threesomes, swaps, pegging etc. 

My first reaction was sadness because he was not being authentic all those years...I can't imagine holding onto secrets. I can barely keep the toothfairy thing going. The weight of that must have been horrible. 

I provided a safe place to share those fantasies and he realized that once he told me what turns him on..and I didn't laugh or leave him....that he would feel relieved and be even more open. Nope. I still see his secretive nature. 

Your instincts just can "feel" the vibe of them holding back. Not to sound all mystic but it's like a energy in the air that you pick up on? Yet at the same time my radar didn't quite pick up the EA fast enough. 

Perhaps my problem is that I'm a open book. I share easily with him and can't understand why he would want to carry around secrets? 

I saw in his browser history that he looked at craigslist ads yesterday.... swapping, m4m etc....so what gives? Why not just tell me about that??? Finding out this way only erodes trust but also makes me feel like he is "unreachable" and still doesn't feel safe to share or just unfulfilled in our marriage and does that mean I need to just move on?


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> I see your point there, that I get..you would have to possess awesome self esteem to handle that.... I'm thinking along the lines of should they tell you if they feel a longing or dissatisfaction in the relationship? I guess that's under emotional transparency? How much of their behavior should they share
> 
> I know in my case I was unaware that he was feeling neglected, he never voiced that to me, but it was his "excuse" to have a EA. Naturally I want to "know" how he is feeling as a way to protect from future affairs and build upon but I can't force that info from him. How does someone learn to be transparent?
> 
> ...


I think you have asked a brilliant question! I have struggled with it as well. I would really really like my wife to tell me, if she thinks about extramarital sex again, does she get her needs met, what turns her on sexually - are we on the same page or is there a chance that she will stray again? 

Because if there is, I would like us to part the sooner the better.

But I also realize, that it is not realistic to expect her to reveal every thought - and in any case, i don't have any mind-police to check if she violates the agreement or not.

So I guess I am ambivalent on the matter, but sometimes/often I wish that I could read her mind. Then I wouldn't doubt either if she loves me or not.


----------



## In The Dark (Aug 24, 2011)

I sympathize with you on this. My wife is not a sharer of how she is feeling. She silently built up resentment and then acted out with an EA. It makes you wonder whether they are still silently storing other stuff in their head. 

I'm struggling with this same issue and guess I just realized that I'm doing the same thing. Storing this up inside...silently. 

I think it all comes down to communication and whether they can admit what they did and what was the cause. Does your husband realize he stored all this up and acted on it? Can he admit how he processed and justified(wrongly) it all?


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Nor does he need to hear about my fascination with Orlando Bloom (don't be hatin'!) But you get my point? I don't want him thinking he isn't man enough for me, and comparing himself to some celebrity.[/QUOTE]


Hey Orlando bloom is a tough act to follow  hubahuba


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm struggling with this same issue and guess I just realized that I'm doing the same thing. Storing this up inside...silently. 

***I think it all comes down to communication and whether they can admit what they did and what was the cause. Does your husband realize he stored all this up and acted on it? Can he admit how he processed and justified(wrongly) it all?[/QUOTE]***

Oh yes, he realizes but he still can't _overcome_ years of keeping secrets. It's like he has to learn how to share. Talk about torture,you should see us in counseling.....when she puts questions to him it's like watching paint dry. 

You said it best...storing it inside....silently. That keeps the BS off balance. We don't know where they stand in the relationship. Is one foot out the door, both in....what? 

I also resent that he kept quiet about his dissatisfaction until DDay....made me question if he really felt that way or was it a convenient excuse once busted? 

I feel like I can't feel anchored until total transparency but do I just have to accept that some people are not open books?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't mind hearing that he thinks actresses are sexy. I tell him if I think actors are, or actresses for that matter.

I have to keep after him to get him to talk about things, and invariably he says he's glad we did, but he still doesn't initiate the conversation. We go to MC every 5 weeks or so and sometimes he saves stuff for there, but mostly he tries not to think about things that bother him. I think it's ingrained in him since he was little to do that, and without some kind of heavy duty therapy he isn't going to change. So I have to remember to ask, and he is getting much better at opening up in the last two years once I do.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Are you in MC or are you doing any reading? Gottmans Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work was awesome for us in the months following D day.


----------



## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

My WW is a weird mix of the two. She is outgoing and fun, bordering on exuberant most days. But we only ever have talked about what I call "playing house" stuff for the better part of the last 4 years. Anything more than paying bills, how are you feeling today, what are the kids up to type stuff I feel like I have to drag out of her. She has told me that I spent a lot of years running her ideas down, not talking to her, or treating her ideas and thoughts as if they were not important that she has shut down to me and is struggling with the habit of just internalizing these thoughts instead of being open with me.

It literally tears her apart to the point of near break down to reveal facts about her affairs, and I told her recently that unless she gets some help to join me in the fight for our marriage that I am running out of fuel. No I don't want her to reveal any thoughts she has about her AP to me, but I have insisted and guaranteed by way of tracking software and VAR her transparency. It eases my mind when I find nothing, which I have not in 3 months post DD#2. I think at some point she will need IC to deal with the many demons from her life before us that factored into our present state.

To be clear, I was isolated as well before discovery, and so was she. I figured we were an older couple and that is just how marriages went, hug mistake. Taking a hard line now on sharing and being open and honest with each other is far more difficult on her than on me. It breaks me a little on the inside to insist on it, but I remember really quickly what her actions put me through and I get better really quick. I know I am a horrible listener, but I am listening now, and she is opening up slowly which frustrates me a good bit.


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Yes, we go to MC weekly but sometimes I feel we aren't getting really to the "heart" of it all. I know he needs more IC ...but he would refuse to go. That's his whole outlook, let me ignore it and it will go away. He doesn't see that it's self destructive. I'm trying to learn how to not "save" him. 

I can't fix him. I can only fix myself but boy is that hard to do when you really crave a healthy supportive relationship.


----------



## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> Yes, we go to MC weekly but sometimes I feel we aren't getting really to the "heart" of it all. I know he needs more IC ...but he would refuse to go. That's his whole outlook, let me ignore it and it will go away. He doesn't see that it's self destructive. I'm trying to learn how to not "save" him.
> 
> I can't fix him. I can only fix myself but boy is that hard to do when you really crave a healthy supportive relationship.


Gosh keep posting on your success when they come. I could have written this about my wife and myself. It's hard not to want to save someone who doesn't see the need to save themselves. We all know the answer, but it is hard to accept.

My thoughts go out to you.


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Link182 said:


> Gosh keep posting on your success when they come. I could have written this about my wife and myself. It's hard not to want to save someone who doesn't see the need to save themselves. We all know the answer, but it is hard to accept.
> 
> My thoughts go out to you.


I had the need to 'save' him earlier this year. He's got to 'save' himself. I can help but only HE can pull himself from the abyss.

At some point though, you have to determine IF youre compatible. Sometimes love isnt enough.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I had the need to 'save' him earlier this year. He's got to 'save' himself. I can help but only HE can pull himself from the abyss.
> 
> At some point though, you have to determine IF youre compatible. Sometimes love isnt enough.


So true. The difference with mine is that he has been in IC for four years. It all started out with a diagnosis of depression and snowballed from there. 

Some days, I feel like we're making real progress in our relationship, but others... I wonder why I even try. Those days, it seems like I am the only one putting forth effort. And yet... I keep going. On those days, the song "Do I" by Luke Bryan really hits me. =/


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> So true. The difference with mine is that he has been in IC for four years. It all started out with a diagnosis of depression and snowballed from there.
> 
> Some days, I feel like we're making real progress in our relationship, but others... I wonder why I even try. Those days, it seems like I am the only one putting forth effort. And yet... I keep going. On those days, the song "Do I" by Luke Bryan really hits me. =/


I totally understand. Like I said, at some point we all have to determine if our efforts are in vein. I dont yet have that answer. I will just have to keep going until I cant anymore or until something changes. Whichever comes first. Either I wear out or he changes...For now its only been 3 mos since NC so IMO he still exhibits some 'foglike' tendencies. My patience for this is waning.

OP- I wish you luck. The issues you are dealing with are mine as well as far as being emotionally distant, conflict avoidant and passive aggressive somewhat.


----------



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> OK, one of the main tools in reconciliation is transparency and how it's so vital to the BS in healing. I think we all know the basics of what is secretive vs private yet it's so hard to put in practice.
> 
> Emotional transparency is a big one for me.....should our spouses reveal every thought and emotion...even if they can wound us again? Like should they mention when they are thinking of the AP (assuming it's over and NC)? Should they share when they see a hot person walking down the street or have sexual thoughts of another person? Should they share sexual fantasies no matter how trivial? How much do we as BS have a "right" to know what goes on in their head?
> 
> ...


IMO, you need as much transparency as you need to make you feel safe. 

At this point, it's not about him, it's about you. DO YOU FEEL SAFE, SECURE, HAPPY, TRUSTING.

If not, perhaps it is your intuition tugging at your intellect. 

There are studies that show that passive aggressive people are most likely to be repetitive cheaters. 

The OW, in my STBEH's case admitted this. She is a serial cheater and in one of her emails, she told my STBE-husband that whenever she is angry at her husband for working too much she looks for someone to have an affair with to punish him. 

My own STBEH is passive aggressive and I suspect he has cheated prior to being outed this last time.

I resonate with your feelings I felt very unsafe with my spouse. He already showed his true colors and after that, I felt unsafe, not very special and very insecure in our marriage. 

Sorry you are here, but feeling the way you feel is normal, maybe even a strong self protective mechanism. 

I think the people here at TAM have opened my eyes to the reality of people who have affairs. 

They tend to be blamers, who say they were out of their mind when they cheated. They blame outside circumstances or the spouse or the kids or the dog, but they never blame themselves. It was always something they did because they had no control over themselves. 

Even the spouse who give lip service to accepting blame are suspect. 

My STBEH initially did this in front of MC and to me during false R. 

I soon found out he was still in casual contact with OW and still going to men's bars something we agreed was out of bounds.


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

That is another thing I struggle with, False R..... how do you know if it is or just "paranoia" after being cheated on? 

I don't trust myself to tell the difference these days. Damage from infidelity eh? It's like one of those nail filled explosions....they escaped the initial blast but we are the ones full of a thousand wounds. Some haven't been tended to yet.


----------



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> That is another thing I struggle with, False R..... how do you know if it is or just "paranoia" after being cheated on?
> 
> I don't trust myself to tell the difference these days. Damage from infidelity eh? It's like one of those nail filled explosions....they escaped the initial blast but we are the ones full of a thousand wounds. Some haven't been tended to yet.


I am so lucky in that I seem to have some sort of guardian angel who continues to send anonymous emails and letters complete with photographs outing my STBEH. 

If it were not for this anonymous information, I would still thin R was successful. 

It really scares me that I am so oblivious to what is going on. 

Transparency can only go so far. It's so easy to get a credit card sent to work, or a new bank account or a burn phone and secret email accounts on hidden computers. 

I just decided, I can't live this way. 

Yes. Perhaps if you someday decide to remarry you might marry another cheater, but at least there is a 60 percent chance that he won't cheat. 

And, now that you know the signs of a cheater you can be more selective. 

Prior I was oblivious to the signs. They were all there though. The passive aggression and conflict avoidance being two big red flags for a cheater. These people smile to your face and tell you what they know you want to hear, than stab you in the back by cheating.

Also, I always thought cheating was a man thing. I now know that is not true. men and women cheat and equal rates now. 

There are also studies that show a possible monogamy gene and a cheater gene.

As you see there are lots of men here on TAM who do not cheat and have been cheated on. 

As for you being angry and repressing it, you likely still won't have an affair, you will likely file for divorce.


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Can you expand on the theory of being passive aggressive with the tendency to cheat?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My hubby is quite passive aggressive.


----------



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> Can you expand on the theory of being passive aggressive with the tendency to cheat?


Passive aggressive people are the type of people who avoid conflict. They also hate to be criticized and see any conflict or complaint as a criticism no matter how constructively phrase. 

Hence they are typically backstabbers. They are the kind of people who will smile to your face and than do something behind your back that might hurt you.

They do this to other people too, other than spouses but they are so smiley and friendly while they jam in the knife that you don't even know you are being stabbed or jabbed. 

In any case a high proportion of cheaters are passive aggressive. 

Hence rather than discussing issues in a marriage with a spouse or going to a counselor who may facilitate discussion they cheat. 

If they went to a counselor the counselor might point out their faults and they do not want that. 

In any case, conflict avoiders are somewhat dangerous in that they tend to engage in sneak attacks, like having an affair to hurt someone or to simply get their way. 

A passive aggressive conflict avoidant cheat needs heavy duty IC otherwise they will likely cheat again because until they confront themselves and or the issues nothing will be resolved in themselves or with the marriage.

Passive aggressives are most likely to engage in a false reconciliation. 

They may have taken the affair very underground but will smile and act as if everything is okay. 

They may even blame themselves after awhile, when talking to you. But IMO, if a former blamer starts to accept blame it could be real or it could be a sign they took the affair or affairs way underground. 

The passive aggressive will accept blame only to avoid conflict, not because they truly believe they were to blame.

Being caught cheating only teaches them how to cheat better and without getting caught.


----------



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

To add RE: passive aggressive disorder:

*Passive–aggressive disorder may stem from a specific childhood stimulus[7] (e.g., alcohol/drug addicted parents) in an environment where it was not safe to express frustration or anger. 

Families in which the honest expression of feelings is forbidden tend to teach children to repress and deny their feelings and to use other channels to express their frustration.

Children who sugarcoat hostility may have difficulties being assertive. Never developing better coping strategies or skills for self-expression, they can become adults who, beneath a "seductive veneer", "harbor vindictive intent", in the words of a US congressman psychologist and a writer therapist.[8] 

Alternatively individuals may simply have difficulty being as directly aggressive or assertive as others. Martin Kantor suggests three areas that contribute to passive–aggressive anger in individuals: conflicts about dependency, control, and competition.*


----------



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Here is a link to the mayo clinic page about passive aggression 

Passive-aggressive behavior: How can I recognize it? - MayoClinic.com


----------



## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Here is a link to the mayo clinic page about passive aggression
> 
> Passive-aggressive behavior: How can I recognize it? - MayoClinic.com


***Ok, now it's making sense and why does this not surprise me that I see traits of my spouse in this big time. 

He never once complained or started a conversation about our marriage until he got busted..... convenient eh? 

He also avoids all conflicts in his life and in general avoids all people. Watching him sit through counseling is like watching a long tailed cat in a room full of rockers. 

Another hot button.....he cannot take any sort of criticism.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I was going to say my H was passive aggressive too, but then I looked at the 'symptoms' and he's not. But he is very much conflict-avoidant.


----------

