# To my friend The Dude...



## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

@TheDudeLebowski

Thank you for directing me to the Singles 2020 thread. I’m late to reply because I generally don’t read that thread. I started this so as to not derail that thread. 

Truth be told, I feel kinda gutted to read of your split with your wife. You certainly never spoke bad of her, quite the opposite. 

Sometimes I’m on an island by myself on TAM, and this may be one of those times. I just gotta pour out my heart a bit. *Please* don’t take offense sweetheart, this is 100% coming out of genuine, real care for you and your little family. 

I can’t help but sit here hoping that a reconciliation could possibly happen down the road. A young family, a new baby, a new job, plus all the challenges you two have overcome in the past. I know you have love for this woman. I can tell from how you have always talked about her. What I feel I’ve learned about her from your posts over time, is that she stayed with you through the darkest of times. When you had nothing else you had each other kinda thing. There is a lot to be said about that. _Don’t forget all the good about her, when the focus has shifted to the bad._

Maybe a little time apart will open her eyes to the ways she has been treating you. Sometimes, we fall into patterns as couples, and some of them are pretty crappy. A lot of times we are shaped by very negative things too. That said, people can indeed change. Look how much you have changed. She may have needed the wake up call. You both sound _very_ hurt. (i.e. her taking the pics down). Lots of emotional stuff going on right now. Like total overload honestly. A 1 month old would be enough! Let alone a separation and new job. My brain is exploding just thinking about it. This is most likely not the best time for any rash decisions. 

I don’t know much about IC or MC, but maybe that can help you guys? I dunno. Maybe you guys have tried a thousand times already that we don’t know about and it hasn’t worked. Everybody knows I’m pro saving a marriage when possible.

I care a lot about you Dude, and dang, I just want you to be happy. I guess all this rambling is to say...please don’t close off your heart all the way to the possibility of reconciliation at some point.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

There's a lot more... Here's what I wrote out earlier...

Turns out men also get depressed around having a baby. Pre and postnatal, same as women. Well I'm prone to depression as it is because I always have issues with that.

As you noticed I'm sure, ive been on a downward slide ever sense I learned the news of Katie's pregnancy. If you notice, the anger issues and depression really ramped up hard the closer we got to delivery date. After Sophie was born, you get that euphoria of seeing your baby and holding them, feeding them and spending time with them.

Well as these things go, when you come down from a high like that, the crash is especially hard. I didn't experience this with the other kids. It really became a moment of self reflection as well as reflecting on issues I had been avoiding in my marriage.

From there, I have learned a lot about what I was feeling and why. There's been a lot of neglect, emotional manipulation, and abuse. This stemming from her own FOO issues as well as mine. She is unable to not be in control of everything. I'm unable to stick up for myself and place my own happiness in the hands of other's personal happiness. Im super codependent. Like I said in the thread, its more of a personality trait than a relationship issue alone. It impacts my jobs, impacts my family and friends. It impacts how I communicate and process information. It feels like a mental disorder really. I know it is a learned behavior and you can overcome it and be healthy, but it will be difficult for me.

Her own FOO issues, her mom is highly controlling, critical and belittling of others. She was also physically and emotionally abusive. Uses emotional manipulation regularly and has never been wrong ever in her life type personality. Pretty much all this stuff was passed on to Katie. Her father is incredibly passive and just accepts the abuse.

My end, I never had a father. I had a dad and stepdad, but they weren't fathers. My mom was neglected and backburnered by my dad. My stepdad was manipulative and abusive as well. My mom accepted all that for years before she ever got out. Like Katie and her mom, I took after my own mother. She is the only one who was ever truly there for me as a kid. The result is Katie is used to seeing an abusive mom and passive dad relationship. I'm used to having really no father, and seeing my mother and sister being abused and just accept it.

In our relationship, we got together so young. Before we could ever even form our own identities. What happened next is obvious. We simply emulated what we knew.

In the beginning of our marriage, it already started by slowly gaining control of me via emo manipulation designed to isolate me from others and any hobbies. I was all too happy to do it too because im codependent af. I couldn't be happy unless she was. I felt responsible for her happiness. Still do. Its hard to break it.

Through all that though, we still had a lot of good times and fun together. Regular sex, vacations together, nights out together, everything a couple should do. After kids, its like a switch was flipped in her mind. I no longer was her husband, now I was just dad. All of her energy was placed into the kids. This is common amongst women. There was a thread here before talking about if you place the kids above your spouse. Most women said yes. Funny enough just about all them are divorced too. Go figure. So I was placed on the backburner. We had many years in a row of technical sexless marriage by definition (less than 12 times/year) I could no longer get her to come out on date nights and it took several years of this before she finally listened to what I was telling her. Why? Because when I was working at radio shack, I developed a crush that turned into infatuation for my employee. There was never anything inappropriate because I wouldn't do that and I was her boss. There's several lines I would never dream of crossing. Except in my own head, I was already cheating by having these feelings.

It ripped me apart with guilt. I joined a marriage forum called Loveshack.org. after some time, I confessed what was going on and as predicted, people are so short sighted and judgemental because on sites like these (TAM not excluded) its just a lot of damaged and ****ed up people who've been cheated on and can't cope with their lives anymore. So I was advised to confess and that would end my feelings. So I did just that. Confessed and told katie about my infatuation.

This obviously hurt her trust, but also it caused her to wake up a bit to what was happening here. That girl never came on to me, she was just nice. I was prone to any attention being something that would cause me to have feelings. So Katie starts doing date nights and we went on some vacations as a coupe again. Left the kids with her parents or whomever. On vacation, its like I'm back to being her husband. As soon as we get home, husband is now dad only in her head.

This stuff hurt. Our sex life did pick up a little. Maybe 2 times per month average. Yet the emo abuse and manipulation went wild at this point as I had damaged the trust. Back to not being allowed to do anything. She controlled all the money. She would give me permission to do things, then turn around and tell me how awful I was for doing them. I could go out with friends. Then I get home and I'm told I'm selfish for going out with friends. I'm told go backpacking. Then get home and told I'm selfish and its unfair that I get to go backpacking. I would be told I'm being selfish for buying pot. Then when I quit, I'm encouraged to get more and given money to get more so I would be more productive and happy go lucky. Then after given pot by her basically, I would be scolded again for retreating to the garage to spark up and that I'm being selfish again. That I cant do things right and that I'm not a good father. All sorts of ****. That's why she has to control everything because she cant count on me.

I just believed her. I was worthless. A HS drop out. I was selfish for wanting to be intimate with my wife and trying to fix that part of our marriage. Thats all I cared about is sex. I didn't provide enough financially and only ever made bad decisions with money. I didn't put her first 100% of the time which makes me a bad husband and father. All the stuff she ever told me. I believed it.

Then eventually I just resigned to all this. I wanted to die but I knew I couldn't do that to my kids having been though suicide with my stepdad. Couldn't do it! So I just figured all fake it till I make it. I tried and tried for years, while simultaneously wishing every single day that someone or something would just kill me already. Sex life went back to where it was. Back to once a month maybe.

My only light at the end of the tunnel was that i was husband again during those times we were alone without kids. Our kids just turned 9&10. Half way there I thought. I can do this for another 9-10 years and we will empty nest and things will ultimately work out.

Then I get the news she is pregnant. That's where this all started. Suddenly im looking at 20 more years of this. As the date got closer and closer to Sophie's birth, as I said it got darker and darker for me. Suddenly, suicide really started to sound wonderful. I knew I was close. Confessed my plans here and to my mom. Just because I was scared I was going to do it.

That's really what started this whole thing. Then little by little, through talking with people, I realized this whole time I was the victim of emotional abuse and have been this entire time we have been together. As my mom put it to me, I'm Katie's world, but I'm more of a possession than a partner. She's right. You know, I equate it to how you love stuff that you own. I love my blender. It works well and is top of the line. I get it out and use it when I need it. Once I'm done, I put it back away until i need it again. But I love that blender. I think that is how Katie loved me. Which isn't love. Its just not. The realization of all of this is soul crushing and makes me feel even more alone than ever before. I isolated myself and did everything I could to make her happy. My own happiness was tied to hers so deeply, I lost any sense of self. To the extreme point where it didn't ever matter to me if I died or not. In my mind, I was just a stupid little boy who would be nothing without her. So now I'm also left wondering if I ever even loved her either.

If I'm ever going to heal, it will need to be alone. Not inside this relationship. I had to initiate the separation as a result. So here I am. I've moved out and I'm trying my best to pick up the pieces of my shattered soul. Here is my rock bottom. I've finally reached it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jesus Dude!

Health.

You are on the right track as far as your health is concerned.

Your life is more important than a marriage certificate.

Damn! I thought I could see pain behind your eyes.

Don't ever believe your life isn't worth it!

I've lived through enough drama for two lifetimes and I can attest to that life is still worth living.

I'm a friend for sure and I will let you know when I'm in the area again.

If you want to shoot the **** with me again, I would thoroughly enjoy it and I promise that I won't piss off Mrs Conan again by leaving my phone on silent!:grin2:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

She needs help my man.

You are going on a wise path as far as I'm concerned.

I'm too much of an a hole to have put up with what you have no matter how bad my behavior was and I have behaved a lot worse than you @TheDudeLebowski !


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

You're a true sweetheart @Spicy

I have similar feelings and I am a hopeless romantic at heart.

Dude just needs to get healthy regardless of his marriage and honestly, so does his wife.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

You are so insightful and honest. I admire many things about you and am glad you are trying to take care of yourself. 

Your devotion to your kids and determination to be a good dad is amazing when one considers the cost to you and your lack of a role model.

God is working in your life--not easy at all. Hope you feel the love from TAM. More ((mom hugs))....


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You're a true [email protected]
> 
> I have similar feelings and I am a hopeless romantic at heart.
> 
> Dude just needs to get healthy regardless of his marriage and honestly, so does his wife.


This is key. I want her to be healthy and I believe she is on the path as well. 

Here's the thing I realized in talking this out with my mom and some friends. Its the fact that we are both repeating a cycle. The reality is, our kids were doomed to repeat all this as well. Sure, some people overcome and break the cycle on their own. Most do not however. So I'll be the one that breaks it. I'm not going to accept my kids modelling our poor relationship. I'll do whatever I can to make sure this doesn't get passed on to them. 

Some people would say I'm being passive and a pushover by not wanting anything in the divorce. That I continue to try and offer support to her. Not only does she get everything, but I continue to give as much as I can beyond that. It has nothing to do with her. If I can give her 2-3 nights per week to herself however she needs it, and she heals, that helps my kids. When someone heals, it helps everyone else around that person. Plus its not like I want her to suffer. I know that goes against the TAM rhetoric of "make them pay" and "fight for yourself cause nobody else will" well freaking I'll be dead some day then what? Fight for myself does what for anyone else exactly? I'll fight to be happy and healed, but that isn't for me. Its for everyone else. I dont want to lash out at you guys. I don't want to create a negative environment for my kids. I don't want to play a part in these negative traits that get passed on. 

Ive struggled with this a lot lately. I need to be happy and healthy for myself. Then i flip, no I need to be the best I can be for others. Then I flip. I can't live my life for others happiness that's codeoendancy, I need to do this for me. Then I flip, no damn what I feel, I need to do the best for my kids and for others. Maybe this is the key, I need to learn to be happy with myself and healthy because of it, so I can make others happy and healty by trying to set the best example I can. So it's not for me, it's not for others. Its for everyone.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

You have a team of cheerleaders here 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Your angels will not take flight--they will watch over and encourage you.....


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

You are working through it sweetheart. We are here for you, whichever way this heads. 

I’m so glad you have your mom as a sounding board. 

Hold dem babies tight and soak up all that love they have for their great daddy.


This is my GIGANTIC HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!:x


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> Your angels will not take flight--they will watch over and encourage you.....


I hope you are right. Sometimes it feels like they are leaving. Yet then I have someone show me otherwise. Maybe its that as my devils leave so do the angels disguised as devils. Then real angels take their place. No, I'm not calling Katie a devil. She really is an incredible mother. She is a kind person who teaches blind kids for a living. She is a servant to others. We were just too damaged from FOO issues and got together too young to know any better. 

Its been nearly 20 years now sense we first hooked up back in 10th grade. I'm certainly no angel. You all have read about my addiction issues. My self loathing and self esteem issues. It has to have taken a lot out of her to be with me. I really hope in going over all she has done, I'm not in any way placing all the blame on her. That's simply not how relationships work. I shoulder a lot and accept I'm damaged goods. I mess up. Like, a lot. But here's the thing, so does everyone else. So does everyone who feels they played no part in their own failed marriage. Hate to break it to y'all, you did. Like, a lot! Like everyone else who has ever lived, you messed up a ton. Unfortunately, I never had good coping skills and neither did she when either one of us messed up. She had boundaries that would shift (manipulation and abuse). I didn't have any boundaries at all (low/no self esteem, codependent, doormat)

In the end, given our past and the relationships we emulated, all the crap we have both put each other through, I believe all the damage has been done. There's no hope here.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Hope can be like the sun, which, as we travel toward it puts the shadow of our burdens behind us. It is an extraordinary spiritual grace that God gives us to control our fears, not to erase them.

I like Emily ****inson's "Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the SOUL and sings the tune without the words and never stops at all."

IMO: It is too early to say there is no hope. Of course, I do not know what was said in the explosive blowup and even then, folks say things they do not mean in anger, in fear.

You have often called her, my Katie, and expressed your love, your admiration. However, it takes two. Please do not let guilt or pain for things past, things that cannot be changed, confuse your path. May you find God's plan...


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I want her to be healthy and I believe she is on the path as well.


I hope so. 

It's hard for us (well me anyway) to believe that someone (you) who sees so clearly, writes so clearly, and shows so much insight into the pattern, can't break the pattern other than by leaving. But so be it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

@TheDudeLebowski - I can relate, I'm like you. I wish I moved out 20 years ago. But I'm weak, pathetic, spineless, co-dependent... keep us posted.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> I hope so.
> 
> It's hard for us (well me anyway) to believe that someone (you) who sees so clearly, writes so clearly, and shows so much insight into the pattern, can't break the pattern other than by leaving. But so be it.


Sometimes, a separation is essential to getting a relationship on track.

After 11 years of marriage, my husband and I separated for 14 months because I had many of the same feelings as Dude. I was 19 and he 21 when we married and we were both ill-equipped to form a solid foundation for marriage. We both worked on our demons and learned how to interact in a manner that benefited us both. Love isn't enough to solve problems when mired in the mud and muck. But, love is enough to bring you back together after sorting yourselves. We went on to have 31 years more together before he passed on.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@TheDudeLebowski, are you isolating or just needing your privacy?


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