# Admins, can we start a WS Stories forum section?



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

In PMs, I have been asked by numerous TAM forum members to recount my FWW's affair stories. Not so much the sordid details of who did what and certainly not to brag, but the why questions; what were you thinking at the time, contributing factors/circumstances/conditions, who did you get to be in this relationship that you couldn't be at home, what did you get out of the affair, what did you hope would happen next, etc.

And I think this might make for an educational forum section, so that any BS can ask questions and try to understand why the WS did what they did. Each thread could start with a WS story, then followed by questions for the WS.

I spoke to my W last night and she is willing to write the first thread post about what goes thru the mind of a WS, with full honesty and candor describing any one of her serial affairs. And she will answer any questions, as long as they will help others to gain a greater understanding of the motivations of a cheater.

I am willing to post my WS story as well, although most may not find mine nearly as helpful I suspect.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I am not so sure you are going to get many takers when it comes to WSs willing to share their complete story. I would certainly never share mine on here. Not because I have anything to hide per se, but because I think the only thing it would really do is trigger people and upset them. Which wouldn't be helpful IMO.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TAM works fine the way it is - anyone is free to share there story in CWI


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I am willing to post my WS story as well, although most may not find mine nearly as helpful I suspect.


I applaud your efforts, and smile at your naivete.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

If you want to start a sanctuary for wayward spouses, try LS or SI. 

Plenty of sympathizers there. Some even trade tips.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> If you want to start a sanctuary for wayward spouses, try LS or SI.
> 
> Plenty of sympathizers there. Some even trade tips.


Wouldn't you want to know what goes on in the minds of WSpouses?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> If you want to start a sanctuary for wayward spouses, try LS or SI.
> 
> Plenty of sympathizers there. Some even trade tips.


I do not think he wants to start a sanctuary for wayward spouses.

Why did you even think that was what he wanted? :scratchhead:

I just re-read his post and I think you just saw: "Wayward + Spouse + story and that you just lost your cool, thinking about what your WS did to you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am not so sure you are going to get many takers when it comes to WSs willing to share their complete story. I would certainly never share mine on here. Not because I have anything to hide per se, but because I think the only thing it would really do is trigger people and upset them. Which wouldn't be helpful IMO.


Oh, yes. And we have an example of someone in this thread who was triggered quite badly and we haven't even had a story shared, yet!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I do not think he wants to start a sanctuary for wayward spouses.
> 
> Why did you even think that was what he wanted? :scratchhead:
> 
> I just re-read his post and I think you just saw: "Wayward + Spouse + story and that you just lost your cool, thinking about what your WS did to you.


Still smilin'.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Still smilin'.


Triggers are not nice.

Very little triggers me, due to the uniqueness of what happened to me But should someone come and say: "My spouse said 'dear, can we have a serious talk?' or there is a case of infidelity that mirrors what happened to me, I trigger.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Wouldn't you want to know what goes on in the minds of WSpouses?


I don't think she would like the reception. I don't think we would be as believing as you. WS are liars so I for one tend to be skeptical. Besides I know what goes through their mind. _"I, me, my"_ as the late great George Harrison sang. It really is that simple. 

I think it would be great for you if she posts though. I think it would give you some clarity.

Why not just have her post. I for one would love to speak to her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Why not just have her post. I for one would love to speak to her.


No doubt, you and a host of others. 

You do realize that at least one of you would be firing a weapon with a blank, right?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I don't think she would like the reception. I don't think we would be as believing as you. WS are liars so I for one tend to be skeptical. Besides I know what goes through their mind. _"I, me, my"_ as the late great George Harrison sang. It really is that simple.
> 
> I think it would be great for you if she posts though. I think it would give you some clarity.
> 
> Why not just have her post. I for one would love to speak to her.


There have been a number of WS who have come and told their stories here.

Some even stayed and put up with attacks from people who did not even own a bloody dog, let alone have a dog in that particular race.

Some WS were chased off by people who got banned for their vile comments. 

Those on TAM willing to ask questions rather than to merely launch snide and cruel attacks on the WS of someone else, actually managed to learn things about the human condition and about relationships.

There have even been occasions when a BS has had to chase off a busybody bully or two who were making vile attacks on their WS.

Along the lines of: "My WS may have cheated on me, but she hasn't cheated on you, so please treat them with respect."


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Wouldn't you want to know what goes on in the minds of WSpouses?


Not at all. Should I ever be faced with such a situation, it is my hope that I am strong enough to walk away and never look back, and that includes not giving a rat's ass what's going through the mind of a deceptive, dishonest, selfish person I have had the displeasure to ever know.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I think it is important that a person can hear both sides of a situation: right, wrong, or otherwise. If not we just continue with the majority BS TAM posters saying she is lying about why she felt the need to do what she did, and there is never any honest feedback from the WS.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think it is important that a person can hear both sides of a situation: right, wrong, or otherwise. Otherwise we just continue with the majority BS TAM posters saying she is lying about why she felt the need to do what she did, and there is never any honest feedback from the WS.


Sorry, Maj, but a good chunk of the forum has no interest in the WS side of the story as anything more than a hook for injecting abuse. 

I would find the thread worth the trouble, but I don't know too many people who have skin thick enough to deflect the inevitable.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Mclane said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't you want to know what goes on in the minds of WSpouses?
> ...


Well here is your chance to talk to one that never did anything to you, and be willing to take criticism for her actions back then.

And I bet if it ever happens to you, you will have tons of questions. It's easy to say 'I would leave and never look back" until you realize all you have to lose.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> there is never any honest feedback from the WS.


Is that a triple oxymoron?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

While I haven't been "run off." I rarely post. I most definitely try to stay out of CWI. It isn't worth the stress. 

I deleted my original thread due to one particular poster repeatedly attacking me. Kinda sad as I had gotten quite a bit of good advice. Oh well, c'est la vie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Sorry, Maj, but a good chunk of the forum has no interest in the WS side of the story as anything more than a hook for injecting abuse.
> 
> I would find the thread worth the trouble, but I don't know too many people who have skin thick enough to deflect the inevitable.


Actually, I think the truth is that those who shout loudest have no interest in the WS side of the story. And I am not sure that it is a good chunk!


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> While I haven't been "run off." I rarely post. I most definitely try to stay out of CWI. It isn't worth the stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was attacked via PM for my journey thread in LTSiM. It happens all too often even for boring threads like mine. So I could only imagine the feeding fest in a sub forum in this area. It would either be crickets because no one would dare post there or it would keep the mods too busy. 

Short thread jack, however I still believe a home and garden fixit section in the same section as social and P&R would be useful. End thread jack. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> If not we just continue with the majority BS TAM posters saying she is lying about why she felt the need to do what she did, and there is never any honest feedback from the WS.


The key word in that sentence is honest.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Actually, I think the truth is that those who shout loudest have no interest in the WS side of the story. And I am not sure that it is a good chunk!


What is their side Matt? I read SI I can see what it is. I have read Love shack (though that is a disaster, can't read there long because it destroys my faith in humanity). That's their side. There are some very contrite WS on SI and I hope they find love again, but they should be honest about who they were so the new person can know what they are getting into. I don't really feel bad for them because they had a myriad of other choices they could have made. 

Still they can be the most contrite person on the planet and I still believe that is unhealthy for an abused person to spend the rest of their life with the person who abused them. I think in the long run that leads to a life that will be much less happy and fulfilling then finding someone new. It forces people to fight against logic and their own natural impulse to protect one self. This leads to depression and also to the vehemence of some of the R posters on here. They are so defensive because they are trying to convince themselves, fight logic and everyone else. Look I don't care if you are R. Your life. Anyway the posts on SI just prove that to me. 

Again what are they going to say to make any of this any different? Unless they are going to say aliens took over my body I don't really think there is much to trying to figure out what they were thinking. This is because the bottom line is they were just selfish and wanted to do what they wanted, to hell with anything else. 

There is not much someone can say after that that has much relevance. 

Sorry I guess my mind is not that open, or empty if you will.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> What is their side Matt? I read SI I can see what it is. I have read Love shack (though that is a disaster, can't read there long because it destroys my faith in humanity). That's their side. There are some very contrite WS on SI and I hope they find love again, but they should be honest about who they were so the new person can know what they are getting into. I don't really feel bad for them because they had a myriad of other choices they could have made.
> 
> Still they can be the most contrite person on the planet and I still believe that is unhealthy for an abused person to spend the rest of their life with the person who abused them. I think in the long run that leads to a life that will be much less happy and fulfilling then finding someone new. It forces people to fight against logic and their own natural impulse to protect one self. This leads to depression and also to the vehemence of some of the R posters on here. They are so defensive because they are trying to convince themselves, fight logic and everyone else. Look I don't care if you are R. Your life. Anyway the posts on SI just prove that to me.
> 
> ...


I have, after a brief visit, managed to avoid SI.

For truly dysfunctional horrors there was the Doc C**l infidelity site.

That was a horrendous snake pit of such nut jobs as a pair of cheaters who were both undergoing couple's counselling in order to get over the guilt they felt for cheating on their spouses, one woman who was angry because her lover was having sex with his wife and one cheater revelled and boasted over the fact that her cheating made her husband cry.

It was that member who signed the death warrant of the site.

Doc C**l read her comment (after never bothering to visit it much) and he was so shocked that he closed the site down to the cheaters immediately and came to TAM to express his regrets for having started the site.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> I have, after a brief visit, managed to avoid SI.
> 
> For truly dysfunctional horrors there was the Doc C**l infidelity site.
> 
> ...


So then you agree with me on this? 

I have to stop reading SI too, I think it is making me too depressed. It's like a car crash though, you can't look away. And everyone is so nice to these awful people. :crying:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> So then you agree with me on this?
> 
> I have to stop reading SI too, I think it is making me too depressed. It's like a car crash though, you can't look away. And everyone is so nice to these awful people. :crying:


There have been WS here who have reconciled with their spouse.

EI is one. You see EI and her husband B1 on the boards offering help when they can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> There have been WS here who have reconciled with their spouse.
> 
> EI is one. You see EI and her husband B1 on the boards offering help when they can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually don't have a problem with WS posting here but I don't think they should be sheltered from the hard truths, as long as it is done civilly.

That's my problem with SI. Sometimes someone needs to say, STOP!


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I would share my story, my thoughts, my "reasons" what have you. But I have developed an iron skin here. I've been told off here more times than I can count.  

I don't know that a wayward forum would be a good idea.....unless that wayward is a masochist. 

Read the first 15 pages of my thread, they destroyed me! Which I am fine with, it helped me. But how many WS run off here after a day? They don't want to hear it. I think you'd have very few contributors
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I actually don't have a problem with WS posting here but I don't think they should be sheltered from the hard truths, as long as it is done civilly.
> 
> That's my problem with SI. Sometimes someone needs to say, STOP!


You can call out someone without being rude.

"You did wrong" v "You did wrong, you sleazy blanking blank! Why don't you **** off?"

The former makes people think. The latter makes people think "How rude!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Sorry, Maj, but a good chunk of the forum has no interest in the WS side of the story as anything more than a hook for injecting abuse.


A good chunk of the forum doesn't seem to really have a lot of interest in a lot of things like how "going full Alpha" isn't the way to solve all marriage problems. I'd argue that's a hook for injecting abuse myself.

Just because the forum as a collective doesn't want to hear something doesn't automatically mean it would be bad for them to hear.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I guess I really don't think there is anything to be learned by waywards posting their stories. You'll get the same rationalizations that most of you have already heard. Why, because no one wants to be seen as an unfeeling monster. People tend to rationalize, especially if they know they are being judged. Look, I'm a serial wayward. And no matter what any serial wayward will tell you, the only reason the cheating happened is because they think with their genitals a lot more than they should. A lot more than most other people. That's pretty much all there is to know.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Wouldn't you want to know what goes on in the minds of WSpouses?


I already know. That they have absolutely no respect for you or the institution of marriage. They are completely checked out and only stick around to use you for child care, housing and/or financial reasons. And that they are utterly selfish narcissists who want their egos and gentiles fed from their AP soul mates. 

You don't need a whole forum section for that. A sticky would suffice.



MattMatt said:


> I just re-read his post and I think you just saw: "Wayward + Spouse + story and that you just lost your cool, thinking about what your WS did to you.


Every six months someone makes a post like this and thankfully it hasn't happened yet. It would become nothing more than a sanctuary for remorseless WS in the fog who carry around a laundry list of reasons why they were justified in cheating so they can sleep at night. 

Who needs that crap? Nothing will be learned from that except maybe how skilled the human mind is at deluding itself.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Perhaps by having a place where WS could tell their stories, they could inform the members of their thoughts, intentions, actions, motivations, and perhaps even provide some hope to others by describing a successful R.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> I already know. That they have absolutely no respect for you. They are completely checked out and only stick around to use you for child care, housing and/or financial reasons. And that they are utterly selfish narcissists who want their egos and gentiles fed from their AP soul mates.
> 
> You don't need a whole forum section for that. A sticky would suffice.
> 
> ...


Mostly we have remorseful WS, which is a blessing.

Tears was one such, and there was EI who quickly realised what had gone wrong in her relationship and how she could, with the help of others on TAM, fix the situation.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> *I guess I really don't think there is anything to be learned by waywards posting their stories. * You'll get the same rationalizations that most of you have already heard. Why, because no one wants to be seen as an unfeeling monster. People tend to rationalize, especially if they know they are being judged. Look, I'm a serial wayward. And no matter what any serial wayward will tell you, the only reason the cheating happened is because they think with their genitals a lot more than they should. A lot more than most other people. That's pretty much all there is to know.


There is something to be learned *by the Wayward* after they have posted their story.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

You could always create a social group, make it 'members only' to post but visible to all. The members are by invite only, in your case WS. Put the link to the social group in your signature line for 'advertising'.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

A woman posted on LS recently that it was by reading WS stories that she came to better understand her spouse's AP. Before that she was just angry and bitter.

I have to say, MD, you would be exposing your wife to a lot of potential abuse by asking her to post here. It would be very charitable for her to do it, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Perhaps by having a place where WS could tell their stories, they could inform the members of their thoughts, intentions, actions, motivations, and perhaps even provide some hope to others by describing a successful R.


Perhaps by having a place where cheaters could tell their stories, those of us who don't already know, would realize how screwed up they are and come to the healthy and rational conclusion that there is no point in reconciling with a cheater who thinks of no one but themselves and their own needs.

Whats a wayward going to say that matters? "I wanted to have sex with another person, I didn't give a rat's ass about the person I was supposedly in love with and had total disregard for the pain I'd put them through because my needs are overwhelmingly more important than they are".

Why stay with a person like this? There's nothing that a cheater could possibly say that could change my mind.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Mostly we have remorseful WS, which is a blessing.
> 
> Tears was one such, and there was EI who quickly realised what had gone wrong in her relationship and how she could, with the help of others on TAM, fix the situation.


Some EVENTUALLY develop remorse most do not. Especially when they first arrive here to post. They come looking for justifications. 

Even EI had a list of excuses when he first came to TAM and as I recall was on the cusp of leaving her husband. She was able to see the error of her ways without a wayward sanctuary.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> There is something to be learned *by the Wayward* after they have posted their story.


I think the "betrayeds" could stand to learn a bunch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

jld said:


> I think the "betrayeds" could stand to learn a bunch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only the ones that don't turn and walk away from the cheater and never look back.

The ones that are "strong enough" to forgive the cheater. 

I never understood that one. "You must be very strong and have a good heart to forgive the affair".

No, you are too weak to walk away and start your life over with someone you can trust who isn't likely to stab you in the back (again), because they're already shown their true colors.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mclane said:


> I never understood that one. "You must be very strong and have a good heart to forgive the affair".
> 
> No, you are too weak to walk away and start your life over with someone you can trust who isn't likely to stab you in the back (again), because they're already shown their true colors.


Damn.... QFT.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mclane said:


> Only the ones that don't turn and walk away from the cheater and never look back.
> 
> The ones that are "strong enough" to forgive the cheater.
> 
> ...


Some people are too weak to walk away when they should, when it is in both of their best interests to do so.

But when you know you have a basically good foundation, and could fix some of the rotting upper layers, it would be imprudent not to at least attempt to do so. My opinion, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

jld said:


> But when you know you have a basically good foundation, and could fix some of the rotting upper layers, it would be imprudent not to at least attempt to do so. My opinion, anyway.


I'd prefer not to be forced to live in the basement because the rest of the house is a dump.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

jld said:


> But when you know you have a basically good foundation, and could fix some of the rotting upper layers, it would be imprudent not to at least attempt to do so


An affair is more equivalent to a complete collapse of the infrastructure.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mclane said:


> Only the ones that don't turn and walk away from the cheater and never look back.
> 
> The ones that are "strong enough" to forgive the cheater.
> 
> ...


What you said means: "I cannot understand how you could do x, y, z. So therefore, you must be wrong!"

Gosh! It's so simple, when put like that.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> What you said means: "I cannot understand how you could do x, y, z. So therefore, you must be wrong!"
> 
> Gosh! It's so simple, when put like that.


No MattMatt, what I said was "I don't give a rat's ass why you did x, y, z" because I have no interest or desire to be with a person who could do such a thing.

And you're right it IS simple, when I put it that way, as opposed to trying to get inside the head of a deceptive, selfish, lying cheater and trying to figure out why they did it and how to make things work with them for the rest of your life that could be better spent with a person who truly loves you and won't screw you over.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mclane said:


> An affair is more equivalent to a complete collapse of the infrastructure.


I think some couples are basically good together, but run into problems. If they openly and honestly discuss them, they can put things back together.

Other couples, affairs or not, may just not be a good match. An affair for them makes it easier to see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

If people need a separate WS section there are other forums for that - the problem is on those other forums there are 1000 silly rules - who can post where and dont get me started on those stupid stop signs in the wayard section of SI...just awful..TAM is working fine - if a WS truly wants to tell their story they can post it here or even start a private group to discuss it with certain people but "safe spaces" for cheaters? bad idea....


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If people need a separate WS section there are other forums for that - the problem is on those other forums there are 1000 silly rules - who can post where and dont get me started on those stupid stop signs in the wayard section of SI...just awful..TAM is working fine - if a WS truly wants to tell their story they can post it here or even start a private group to discuss it with certain people but "safe spaces" for cheaters? bad idea....


 ^This^

CWI does not differentiate with who is coping with the infidelity, cheater or cheated, they both have to cope with it (although some may take a long time to realize it). Let them post it here where they will receive input from all.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mclane said:


> Perhaps by having a place where cheaters could tell their stories, those of us who don't already know, would realize how screwed up they are and come to the healthy and rational conclusion that there is no point in reconciling with a cheater who thinks of no one but themselves and their own needs.
> 
> Whats a wayward going to say that matters? "I wanted to have sex with another person, I didn't give a rat's ass about the person I was supposedly in love with and had total disregard for the pain I'd put them through because my needs are overwhelmingly more important than they are".
> 
> Why stay with a person like this? There's nothing that a cheater could possibly say that could change my mind.


So it's all about sex, is it? In many cases it is not.

Sex is secondary in many affairs and in some cases there is no sex, there is only an emotional connection. 

You could never forgive.

Yet others can.

Incidentally, have you ever been cheated on?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mclane said:


> No MattMatt, what I said was "I don't give a rat's ass why you did x, y, z" because I have no interest or desire to be with a person who could do such a thing.
> 
> And you're right it IS simple, when I put it that way, as opposed to trying to get inside the head of a deceptive, selfish, lying cheater and trying to figure out why they did it and how to make things work with them for the rest of your life that could be better spent with a person who truly loves you and won't screw you over.


The problem with simple solutions is that often, they simply don't work.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Incidentally, have you ever been cheated on?


No, I've never cheated on and I've never cheated. 

I have walked away from a bad marriage of 16 years that did not suffer from any infidelity, which turned into a high conflict divorce; so I understand how scary and complicated it is to tear your life apart and rebuild it (for whatever reasons).

I am especially sensitive to the topic of a person who supposedly loves another person, turning around and stabbing them in the back with no regard, to further their own agenda, and to me, cheating falls squarely within that category.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> ^This^
> 
> CWI does not differentiate with who is coping with the infidelity, cheater or cheated, they both have to cope with it (although some may take a long time to realize it). Let them post it here where they will receive input from all.


If you read SI's wayward section especially under many "stop sign" posts there is a lot of awful stuff...also SI does not allow waywards to post in the "just found out" section which *(this will shock many)* I find silly - there are some WS who genuinely want to help and if they are willing to brave the JFO section they should be allowed to post..


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If you read SI's wayward section especially under many "stop sign" posts there is a lot of awful stuff...also SI does not allow waywards to post in the "just found out" section which *(this will shock many)* I find silly - there are some WS who genuinely want to help and if they are willing to brave the JFO section they should be allowed to post..


I try to help as much as I can even though I'm not always well received. And that's ok. But I do feel like raw honest advice from a WS who doesn't minimize and is not on the "side" of the wayward can be helpful. 

I try to only jump on the threads of BS who want to reconcile or are unsure though. I try to "know my place" and would never jump into a bash session or sh*tstorm.

Hopefully the things are share are helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mclane said:


> No, I've never cheated on and I've never cheated.
> 
> I have walked away from a bad marriage of 16 years that did not suffer from any infidelity, which turned into a high conflict divorce; so I understand how scary and complicated it is to tear your life apart and rebuild it (for whatever reasons).
> 
> I am especially sensitive to the topic of a person who supposedly loves another person, turning around and stabbing them in the back with no regard, to further their own agenda, and to me, cheating falls squarely within that category.


Well, at one time I would have had difficulty understanding how cheating could happen and how you could forgive a cheater. 

And then life happened to me and I learned a lot more than I really would have wanted to. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> I try to help as much as I can even though I'm not always well received. And that's ok. But I do feel like raw honest advice from a WS who doesn't minimize and is not on the "side" of the wayward can be helpful.
> 
> I try to only jump on the threads of BS who want to reconcile or are unsure though. I try to "know my place" and would never jump into a bash session or sh*tstorm.
> 
> ...


You are helpful - that is why the SI ban on WSs in the JFO section is silly IMO. They have all different forums with a different set of rules for each forum - like for example in the reconciliation section no 2 x 4s - it micromanages interactions. I believe there are some genuine WSs who want to help and should be allowed to. That is why I dont like the idea of a 'wayward section' here...


----------



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Mclane said:
> 
> 
> > No, I've never cheated on and I've never cheated.
> ...


Same here. I learned a lot and I feel like I am selfish if I wouldn't want other BS to have the opportunity to learn as well.

Perhaps instead of "stories", we could call the sub-forum "WS Lessons Learned".


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Same here. I learned a lot and I feel like I am selfish if I wouldn't want other BS to have the opportunity to learn as well.
> 
> Perhaps instead of "stories", we could call the sub-forum "WS Lessons Learned".


Or you could simpoly start a thread or a group entitles "WS lessons learned" - nothing is stopping you from doing that immediately...you dont need a subforum for it...


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Mclane said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, have you ever been cheated on?
> ...


That explains a lot. While the heartache of a contested D has it's own set of challenges, I would offer that infidelity has its own very unique set of challenges, and the root problems that led to it requires deeper analysis and introspection. And then add R for those that want to try, requires even more "sole searching" to reach a recovery point. No one is blameless.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I would share my story, my thoughts, my "reasons" what have you. But I have developed an iron skin here. I've been told off here more times than I can count.
> 
> I don't know that a wayward forum would be a good idea.....unless that wayward is a masochist.
> 
> ...


LH from what I can tell you are really reformed, however -

No offense but you destroyed yourself by cheating. No one would have had the ability to destroy you if you had made better choices. Again it's like driving drunk, there are consequences.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> That explains a lot. While the heartache of a contested D has it's own set of challenges, I would offer that infidelity has its own very unique set of challenges, and the root problems that led to it requires deeper analysis and introspection. And then add R for those that want to try, requires even more "sole searching" to reach a recovery point. *No one is blameless.*


The bolded is empowering, for those who can hear it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> You could always create a social group, make it 'members only' to post but visible to all. The members are by invite only, in your case WS. Put the link to the social group in your signature line for 'advertising'.


I am against it if there is filtering like SI. I have no problem kicking people out when there is genuine abuse. However if you can call there actions and thinking abhorrent then it won't really be about them getting help. Infidelity is like a cancer it needs to be cut out, cutting things cause pain.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> LH from what I can tell you are really reformed, however -
> 
> No offense but you destroyed yourself by cheating. No one would have had the ability to destroy you if you had made better choices. Again it's like driving drunk, there are consequences.


I was saying they destroyed me by essentially chewing my a$$ up and spitting it out. *I* did what I did, but I wasn’t expecting what I got when I came here. And that’s fine, I needed to see it. But it was a bit overwhelming at first. No one – including my husband, including me - had ever held me accountable for what I did. And when I came here, they held me accountable. I didn’t know how to take it, it hurt, I got defensive, I cried…….but then I started realizing I needed to hear those things so I stuck around. I kept coming back. I accepted the ‘beatings’ in order to learn and grow. When a new WS comes here and the 2X4’s start flying, I always encourage them to stay. That if they stay and really open their eyes and minds to what people are saying, they’ll learn. I posted here for a good few months knowing not one commenter really thought much of me. But it was necessary for me to learn. So I took that destruction and tried to turn it into a positive, learning experience. My point was, not a lot of people will do that. They see conflict and run. They don’t want to hear the bad about them. They don’t want to see they’re wrong. They don’t want to hear other people’s opinions. I’ve seen VERY few WS hit with numerous 2X4’s stick around long.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> That's pretty much all there is to know.


That's your story.

It is NOT all there is to know.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > LH from what I can tell you are really reformed, however -
> ...


I share your concerns. I believe many of the extreme negative posters feel that no one can ever make a mistake and change from having dealt with the repercussions. Or they bailed out of their marriage at the first sign of trouble and wonder later if it could have been saved. My W and I have been called "unicorns" by others, because they had heard about couples with serious infidelity issues that were able to R, but never had seen one in person. I would like to work to change that by starting with the WS story as a pretext.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I think the "betrayeds" could stand to learn a bunch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course you do.:grin2: You also think every problem in a marriage is the mans fault.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Of course you do.:grin2: You also think every problem in a marriage is the mans fault.


False.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> That's your story.
> 
> It is NOT all there is to know.


When it comes to a serial cheater it IS. I wasn't talking about all cheaters.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mclane said:


> And you're right it IS simple, when I put it that way, as opposed to trying to get inside the head of a deceptive, selfish, lying cheater and trying to figure out why they did it and how to make things work with them for the rest of your life that could be better spent with a person who truly loves you and won't screw you over.


Yeah I feel this is why you see BS having such difficulty. They are looking to find an answer that isn't "Your spouse was just selfish and at the moment they were cheating and they cared more about themselves and their AP then you." Yeah there may have been some Mommy and Daddy issues but you know what plenty of people have Mommy and Daddy issues and don't cheat, so that ain't it. Nope the bottom line is they did it because they wanted to and they could. 

The only path to healing is to accept that this is the reason. Looking for some other reason is a wild goose chase and only leads to confusion and unresolved misery. 

The problem is accepting this and staying with a person who could be that way is a lot more them people can take, so they do everything in their power to live in denial. These are the ones who I feel bad for because it is not going to get better, they are just spinning their wheels.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You are helpful - that is why the SI ban on WSs in the JFO section is silly IMO. They have all different forums with a different set of rules for each forum - like for example in the reconciliation section no 2 x 4s - it micromanages interactions. I believe there are some genuine WSs who want to help and should be allowed to. That is why I dont like the idea of a 'wayward section' here...


That forum should be call Codependent.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I was saying they destroyed me by essentially chewing my a$$ up and spitting it out. *I* did what I did, but I wasn’t expecting what I got when I came here. And that’s fine, I needed to see it. But it was a bit overwhelming at first. No one – including my husband, including me - had ever held me accountable for what I did. And when I came here, they held me accountable. I didn’t know how to take it, it hurt, I got defensive, I cried…….but then I started realizing I needed to hear those things so I stuck around. I kept coming back. I accepted the ‘beatings’ in order to learn and grow. When a new WS comes here and the 2X4’s start flying, I always encourage them to stay. That if they stay and really open their eyes and minds to what people are saying, they’ll learn. I posted here for a good few months knowing not one commenter really thought much of me. But it was necessary for me to learn. So I took that destruction and tried to turn it into a positive, learning experience. My point was, not a lot of people will do that. They see conflict and run. They don’t want to hear the bad about them. They don’t want to see they’re wrong. They don’t want to hear other people’s opinions. I’ve seen VERY few WS hit with numerous 2X4’s stick around long.


What were the 2x4's. Were they (you are a bad person) or (you are a bad person because you treated your spouse like so), because the second is exactly what needs to be said. Clarity is the first step to changing. People who do rotten things need to hear the truth about what they have done.

The reason why they don't stick around is the same reason why they cheat. They don't have it in them to be introspective. Being nice to them isn't going to help them either. There best chance is to have a mirror put in front of them to see who they are. That is the only way.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> I share your concerns. I believe many of the extreme negative posters belive that no one can ever make a mistake and change from having dealt with the repercussions. Or they bailed out of their marriage at the first sign of trouble and wonder later if it could have been saved. My W and I have been called "unicorns" by others, because they had heard about couples with serious infidelity issues that were able to R, but never had seen one in person. I would like to work to change that by starting with the WS story as a pretext.


But MJ but your story doesn't seem like a happy ending to me. You seem very troubled about all this. I can see that by your posting history.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> But MJ but your story doesn't seem like a happy ending to me. You seem very troubled about all this. I can see that by your posting history.


This seems true. Are you conflicted about reconciling? Or is it more the hurt from thinking about what she did?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The topic of having a separate forum for WS has been brought up here on TAM several times over the years. The response from the admins has always been NO.

If such a forum were to exist, there would be strong rules about not attacking the WS who post there.

While attacking and shaming might help some people, usually when a WS is hit by a wall of attacks, shaming, etc. the leave. I don’t blame them a bit. It’s perfectly possible to reach someone, to get them to the right place without abusing them. Here on TAM there are mostly BSs and most seem to relish the chance to abuse WSs. 

It is what it is.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> What were the 2x4's. Were they (you are a bad person) or (you are a bad person because you treated your spouse like so), because the second is exactly what needs to be said. Clarity is the first step to changing. People who do rotten things need to hear the truth about what they have done.
> 
> The reason why they don't stick around is the same reason why they cheat. They don't have it in them to be introspective. Being nice to them isn't going to help them either. There best chance is to have a mirror put in front of them to see who they are. That is the only way.


I was called several things. It was not nice. At all. LOL. Which is ok, like I said, I needed to see those things. I didn’t even know how to hold myself accountable. I knew what I did was wrong and I hated it. From the day it happened forward I wished I could take it all back. I drank heavily for a while afterwards. I ‘justified’ it in my mind the way all waywards do. “If he would’ve only loved me more….” I knew I’d hurt him, but I didn’t know what to do about it. And I thought that since I’d never left him over his EA with his ex gf that he should automatically give me another chance too. 

I did look at it as a mistake. Something I’d just done wrong one time but I knew I wouldn’t do it again so (forgive me, these are old thoughts) “what’s the big deal?” I’d learned my lesson so lets just move on, right?

I NEVER understood the depths of my actions until I came here. I didn’t really fix my behavior afterwards. Sure, I didn’t cheat again, but I never checked my boundaries, never looked within myself to see why I did what I did. I just expected him to accept that I did it, I’d drink away my own shame and we’d just go on. 

I NEEDED the 2X4’s. I needed the “unkind” words. I was stuck in a delusional state of mind that everything would be ok. Heck I’d even accepted that his EA was just part of our life together. I didn’t like it, but I never gave consequences so I just let him get away with it and cry and scream about it sometimes while wishing all of it would just go away.

Not trying to be dramatic, but TAM saved my life. I’ve said it a hundred times here. I really don’t know where my marriage would be or even where *I* would be had I not found this place.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

jld said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > But MJ but your story doesn't seem like a happy ending to me. You seem very troubled about all this. I can see that by your posting history.
> ...


So asking questions and continuous learning implies that I must not be happy/content? Forgive me if I give the wrong impression with all my posts. I guess I default to the position that you can't really engage in trying to help others unless you have been in the thick of it yourself. So maybe I post so much about infidelity to prove how invested I am in trying to help others.

It has been suggested that I start my own website, and I just might.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> I was called several things. It was not nice. At all. LOL. Which is ok, like I said, I needed to see those things. I didn’t even know how to hold myself accountable. I knew what I did was wrong and I hated it. From the day it happened forward I wished I could take it all back. I drank heavily for a while afterwards. I ‘justified’ it in my mind the way all waywards do. “If he would’ve only loved me more….” I knew I’d hurt him, but I didn’t know what to do about it. And I thought that since I’d never left him over his EA with his ex gf that he should automatically give me another chance too.
> 
> I did look at it as a mistake. Something I’d just done wrong one time but I knew I wouldn’t do it again so (forgive me, these are old thoughts) “what’s the big deal?” I’d learned my lesson so lets just move on, right?
> 
> ...


You've come a long way....keep up the good work!!>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Tobyboy said:


> You've come a long way....keep up the good work!!>
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Heyyyyyy! Long time no see!


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am not so sure you are going to get many takers when it comes to WSs willing to share their complete story. I would certainly never share mine on here. Not because I have anything to hide per se, but because I think the only thing it would really do is trigger people and upset them. Which wouldn't be helpful IMO.


I posted my long and horrible tale. It felt good to release it all, especially to people on the net that you shouldn't have to worry about what they say to you.

And it helps to get it out there, I hope it shows BS that they have to stand up for themselves and to stop falling all over themselves to save a marriage that only 1 person is putting any effort into.

I'm all for the happy ending where both persons get together and live happily ever after. But the sad truth is only 1 person only gets that fairy tale, and it isn't the BS. People say 2-5 years to recover, I say recovery takes the rest of our lives together. It lessens over time but IT NEVER GOES AWAY.

It's like a death in the family, instant grief that slowly fades. But when you see an old photo, hear a familiar song, the hurt does come back for a little bit.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CH said:


> It's like a death in the family, instant grief that slowly fades. But when you see an old photo, hear a familiar song, the hurt does come back for a little bit.


That's true, but it's also true of any great hurt put on a relationship, intentional or not, and not unique to infidelity.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The topic of having a separate forum for WS has been brought up here on TAM several times over the years. The response from the admins has always been NO.
> 
> If such a forum were to exist, there would be strong rules about not attacking the WS who post there.
> 
> ...


I don't know I think this world could do with a whole lot more shame. When did shame become a bad thing? If we had more shame we wouldn't have to deal with the Kardashians for instance. :laugh:


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I don't know I think this world could do with a whole lot more shame. When did shame become a bad thing? If we had more shame we wouldn't have to deal with the Kardashians for instance. :laugh:


I think the Kardashians are fine examples of modern Armenian womanhood.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

CH said:


> I posted my long and horrible tale. It felt good to release it all, especially to people on the net that you shouldn't have to worry about what they say to you.
> 
> And it helps to get it out there, I hope it shows BS that they have to stand up for themselves and to stop falling all over themselves to save a marriage that only 1 person is putting any effort into.
> 
> ...


This, I can understand. I certainly don't think it would make me feel better to tell my story. But...I do agree it can help BS's that are blaming themselves.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> I was saying they destroyed me by essentially chewing my a$$ up and spitting it out. *I* did what I did, but I wasn’t expecting what I got when I came here. And that’s fine, I needed to see it. But it was a bit overwhelming at first. No one – including my husband, including me - had ever held me accountable for what I did. And when I came here, they held me accountable. I didn’t know how to take it, it hurt, I got defensive, I cried…….but then I started realizing I needed to hear those things so I stuck around. I kept coming back. I accepted the ‘beatings’ in order to learn and grow. When a new WS comes here and the 2X4’s start flying, I always encourage them to stay. That if they stay and really open their eyes and minds to what people are saying, they’ll learn. I posted here for a good few months knowing* not one commenter really thought much of me. *But it was necessary for me to learn. So I took that destruction and tried to turn it into a positive, learning experience. My point was, not a lot of people will do that. They see conflict and run. They don’t want to hear the bad about them. They don’t want to see they’re wrong. They don’t want to hear other people’s opinions. I’ve seen VERY few WS hit with numerous 2X4’s stick around long.


I always thought you were a nice person, LH. And as I told you back in Nov., I think you were coerced into that encounter with your friend's husband. You certainly did not go out looking for it. Indeed, you tried to avoid it.

I think professional counseling would have been, and still certainly could be, very helpful to you.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> This, I can understand. I certainly don't think it would make me feel better to tell my story. But...I do agree it can help BS's that are blaming themselves.


Your wife could be helping you, RH. The problem there is that, from what you have said on another thread here in CWI, she does not disapprove of your cheating. You said that, from her own upbringing, male infidelity seems normal to her, correct? So then it really is all on you to change things, for your own conscience's sake.

Thought: Do you think you come here for the discipline that your wife is not providing?


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> I think the Kardashians are fine examples of modern Armenian womanhood.



Just hearing "that" name makes me throw up.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Your wife could be helping you, RH. The problem there is that, from what you have said on another thread here in CWI, she does not disapprove of your cheating. You said that, from her own upbringing, male infidelity seems normal to her, correct? So then it really is all on you to change things, for your own conscience's sake.
> 
> Thought: Do you think you come here for the discipline that your wife is not providing?


I try not to share too much...but yes....my sole purpose for lurking on here is because the painful threads are a reminder of how damaging infidelity is in other peoples lives. At the same time I find it fascinating because CWI is nothing like the world I live in. I don't know, maybe I have some form of waydar, because I am surrounded by cheaters that simply don't care. A comment was made earlier in this thread that I only have my story to tell. That really isn't the case. My father cheated, my wife's father cheated too, my wife's brother cheated. Most of my male friends are or were cheaters. Most of the high level executives I have worked with male and female are cheaters. Also, roughly one in four men in my neighborhood were on the list from that married cheater website. It's just nice to come here to find something different.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I try not to share too much...but yes....my sole purpose for lurking on here is because the painful threads are a reminder of how damaging infidelity is in other peoples lives. At the same time I find it fascinating because CWI is nothing like the world I live in. I don't know, maybe I have some form of waydar, because I am surrounded by cheaters that simply don't care. A comment was made earlier in this thread that I only have my story to tell. That really isn't the case. My father cheated, my wife's father cheated too, my wife's brother cheated. Most of my male friends are or were cheaters. Most of the high level executives I have worked with male and female are cheaters. Also, roughly one in four men in my neighborhood were on the list from that married cheater website. It's just nice to come here to find something different.


Time to find a new neighborhood :surprise:!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Time to find a new neighborhood :surprise:!


And lose the only Beacon of decency, there?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The topic of having a separate forum for WS has been brought up here on TAM several times over the years. The response from the admins has always been NO.


The problem is such subforums create more rules and more micromanaging of interactions..i've seen it on other sites - who can post where and what they can say in that particular subforum. the administrators of this site are wise to avoid such silliness. Like I stated earlier TAM works fine the way it is...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Like I stated earlier TAM works fine the way it is...


Depends on who you ask, I guess. 

For the people who like to wield a bat and feel morally superior, I can see how that's true. For those who like nuanced discussion and exploration of the intricate circumstances surrounding a charged topic, perhaps not so much.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Depends on who you ask, I guess.
> 
> For the people who like to wield a bat and feel morally superior, I can see how that's true. For those who like nuanced discussion and exploration of the intricate circumstances surrounding a charged topic, perhaps not so much.


There are plenty of perspectives on Tam and I've seen the alternative in action and it ends up creating a million rules to govern each subforum....its unnecessary...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> There are plenty of perspectives on Tam and I've seen the alternative in action and it ends up creating a million rules to govern each subforum....its unnecessary...


I'm sorry I had a different opinion. I'll try to be better in the future.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Time to find a new neighborhood :surprise:!


Well, don't move near me! 

Cheaters I personally know:

*My father (bio and step)

*Two of my siblings

*Various Aunts and Uncles 

*Nearly everyone I have known since High School and watched go through 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd marriages cheated, were cheated on, or both.

*My next door neighbor's wife is currently having an affair

*A few of the guys DH works with

*and, of course, me.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Well, don't move near me!
> 
> Cheaters I personally know:
> 
> ...


Do people that know you have cheated before randomly open up to you and tell you details about their affair/s? Often even boasting about it? It happens to me all the time.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Do people that know you have cheated before randomly open up to you and tell you details about their affair/s? Often even boasting about it? It happens to me all the time.


Really? wow..talk about no shame..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Do people that know you have cheated before randomly open up to you and tell you details about their affair/s? Often even boasting about it? It happens to me all the time.


How do you respond when they do that?

And how does it make you feel?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> How do you respond when they do that?
> 
> And how does it make you feel?


When they talk about it I just listen to them, not all are boastful, some are conflicted. This may disappoint you but I don't tell them what they should do unless they ask, I learned long ago that people will do what they want to anyway when it comes stuff like this. One thing I won't do is look at naked pics of their AP. A lot of men love to show pics of their APs off. I have no desire to see that, plus it seems wrong because that women sent pics to them not everyone else.

How does it make me feel? It depends, some make me feel thankful I'm not in an affair right now, and yes some make me wish I was in an affair because not all of the memories from that part of my life are bad, others flat out disgust me, yet others make me feel bad for their spouses. Its complicated.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mclane said:


> Only the ones that don't turn and walk away from the cheater and never look back.
> 
> The ones that are "strong enough" to forgive the cheater.
> 
> ...


Behavior doesn't just happen out of the blue. It has causes. Some are afraid to know those causes. And many would react badly---not because they are evil people or something like that but because different folks have different priorities.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

sidney2718 said:


> Mclane said:
> 
> 
> > Only the ones that don't turn and walk away from the cheater and never look back.
> ...


I think many of the BS who walk away do so because they could never come to terms with the notion that THEY were the cause of the infidelity, wholly or partially.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think many of the BS who walk away do so because they could never come to terms with the notion that THEY were the cause of the infidelity, wholly or partially.


Ooooo you're gonna get some of the BS coming after you, now! 😉

But I agree with Sidney. It isn't something that happens in a vacuum. There is often a cause/effect going on... and it isn't always just because the WS is a "selfish, narcissistic b*tch/@$$hole"...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

ReformedHubby said:


> Do people that know you have cheated before randomly open up to you and tell you details about their affair/s? Often even boasting about it? It happens to me all the time.


OMG, yes! Even people who don't know me do it. It's bizarre.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think many of the BS who walk away do so because they could never come to terms with the notion that THEY were the cause of the infidelity, wholly or partially.


MD this comment really just proves our whole point. So sad. No wonder you have stayed. There really is no hope for you as long as you feel this way. :crying:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> I try not to share too much...but yes....my sole purpose for lurking on here is because the painful threads are a reminder of how damaging infidelity is in other peoples lives. At the same time I find it fascinating because CWI is nothing like the world I live in. I don't know, maybe I have some form of waydar, because I am surrounded by cheaters that simply don't care. A comment was made earlier in this thread that I only have my story to tell. That really isn't the case. My father cheated, my wife's father cheated too, my wife's brother cheated. Most of my male friends are or were cheaters. Most of the high level executives I have worked with male and female are cheaters. Also, roughly one in four men in my neighborhood were on the list from that married cheater website. It's just nice to come here to find something different.


Do you live in LA?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I'm sorry I had a different opinion. I'll try to be better in the future.


You just sound defensive. You say you want discussion but your post makes it seem like you want to shut down discussion not promote it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> Do people that know you have cheated before randomly open up to you and tell you details about their affair/s? Often even boasting about it? It happens to me all the time.


Birds of a feather.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Ooooo you're gonna get some of the BS coming after you, now! ��
> 
> But I agree with Sidney. It isn't something that happens in a vacuum. There is often a cause/effect going on... and it isn't always just because the WS is a "selfish, narcissistic b*tch/@$$hole"...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Then why doesn't everyone cheat under the same circumstances? Lots of people have sh*tty marriages, not all of them cheat. The act of cheating is what makes them selfish, because it is a selfish act. It's really not the point anyway. Everyone has problems the way you react to them is on you. There was a point where the WS made a choice. That is where it's all on them.

I think cheaters believe this though, because no one want's to believe that they are bad, and that there are people in the world who are morally stronger then them.

Notice how we have a post about letting WS have a section and by the 8th page we start to get the usual justifications. At least it took 8 pages, SI it usually happens in the introductions.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> MD this comment really just proves our whole point. So sad. No wonder you have stayed. There really is no hope for you as long as you feel this way. :crying:


It is also called "taking responsibility for your own stuff."

Yes, the cheater should not have responded to their spouse being an utter swine by cheating.

But! Then likewise their spouse should not have been an utter swine, should they?

It is almost as if there is a mentality that believes if someone has been an utter swine to their spouse that if their spouse eventually decides to cheat on them that their cheating is like some kind of magic sponge that wipes away all those years of arrogant, vile, swineish behaviour and gives the swine a clean slate.

No. It doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Birds of a feather.


That was rude and not helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think many of the BS who walk away do so because they could never come to terms with the notion that THEY were the cause of the infidelity, wholly or partially.


The ones here fight it terribly. They cannot bear to take that level of responsibility.

And that is really too bad, especially in the case of WWs. The one main example of a reconciliation where the man did take responsibility, and asked his wife to tell him all the ways he hurt her, ended well. I wish more men could do this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Why did you say you wish more "men" could do this instead of more "people"? Don't you wish more women could do this too? Or is it your position that the man is always at fault, regardless of who cheated?


I think men are uniquely suited to take responsibility for their marriages. 

That does not mean he is "at fault," however. Putting 100% responsibility on the cheater for choosing the act of cheating is empowering for the cheater. It shows him or her that they are in full control of avoiding cheating in the future, regardless of what the spouse does. They do not have to feel powerless to forces that may, in the moment, feel beyond their control. They have agency.

Dr. Harley suggests men do Plan A for 6 months to a full year, to prove to their wives that they are trustworthy. He only recommends it to betrayed wives for 3 weeks. 

He has a lot of experience. If he has different recommendations for the sexes, I think we should pay attention to that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just wanted to add that some women do well being in charge of their marriages. They take responsibility for their husbands and are the emotional rock in their marriages. 

I have recommended it to some women who want to stay married no matter what. Instead of being upset about what their husbands are not doing in whatever way, they can accept it and just learn to take care of business and meet their needs on their own. You cannot expect people to do things beyond their capacity, anyway.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Then why doesn't everyone cheat under the same circumstances? Lots of people have sh*tty marriages, not all of them cheat. The act of cheating is what makes them selfish, because it is a selfish act. It's really not the point anyway. Everyone has problems the way you react to them is on you. There was a point where the WS made a choice. That is where it's all on them.
> 
> I think cheaters believe this though, because no one want's to believe that they are bad, and that there are people in the world who are morally stronger then them.
> 
> Notice how we have a post about letting WS have a section and by the 8th page we start to get the usual justifications. At least it took 8 pages, SI it usually happens in the introductions.


And, yet, you make the assumption that they cannot change. That they cannot turn their lives around from this, and become the spouses that they should have been all along. You assume that one who chooses to stick with the WS and try to repair, together, their broken marriage, is weak. Some, sure. Some are weak. Some choose to stay because they are scared. But others choose to stay because, while they know the WS is completely at fault for their own CHOICES, they know that SOMETHING triggered that response, and they want to find out what started that path. 

I truly do not believe AlmostRecovered is a weak man. And I do not believe SomedayDig is a weak man. And I certainly would not call davelli a weak man. All three of them chose reconciliation. And all three are still with their wives. Dig and Dave were both permabanned either last year or the year before, but they are all doing great. They are not any stronger, nor any weaker, than one who chooses to separate/divorce. They only chose what works best for THEM. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Why did you say you wish more "men" could do this instead of more "people"? Don't you wish more women could do this too?


Don't bother wasting keystrokes on this one. Just roll your eyes like we all do and skip to the next post. Zero shame in her game.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> I read his books too. And many others. Do you have any first hand experience with infidelity or do you just pull information from the books that support your position?
> 
> Because i have not come across one post from you that indicated that it was the woman's fault.


My marriage has not experienced infidelity. But I don't think it is hard for any wife who has ever been upset with her husband to not imagine how it could happen.

Dr. Harley does tell women to look at themselves. If you are not having sex with your husband, should you be shocked that he might eventually have an affair?

But ultimately I think men have a lot of power in marriages, power that they may overlook or not use wisely.

Gottman's research says that women usually accept influence from men, but men usually do not accept it from women. That influence is currency in marriage. If more men would use it wisely, I think fewer women would have affairs.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> You just sound defensive. You say you want discussion but your post makes it seem like you want to shut down discussion not promote it.


Perhaps if you put down the bat you'd find people more willing to engage.

I don't want to shut down anyone's discussion. I just don't want to have one with you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> And, yet, you make the assumption that they cannot change. That they cannot turn their lives around from this, and become the spouses that they should have been all along. You assume that one who chooses to stick with the WS and try to repair, together, their broken marriage, is weak. Some, sure. Some are weak. Some choose to stay because they are scared. But others choose to stay because, while they know the WS is completely at fault for their own CHOICES, they know that SOMETHING triggered that response, and they want to find out what started that path.
> 
> I truly do not believe AlmostRecovered is a weak man. And I do not believe SomedayDig is a weak man. And I certainly would not call davelli a weak man. All three of them chose reconciliation. And all three are still with their wives. Dig and Dave were both permabanned either last year or the year before, but they are all doing great. They are not any stronger, nor any weaker, than one who chooses to separate/divorce. They only chose what works best for THEM.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Few things, I don't remember calling BSes weak also I never said WS can't change. Please don't put words in my mouth. I have and will say BS's who r are misguided and making a mistake for the most part. I believe WS can change but it takes years and lots of hard work which most people don't have in them. And even if they do the damage to a persons spirit by staying with an abuser is not worth it for the BS even if they don't realize it. 

I said as I always say it is wrong to recommend someone stay with their abuser. There is a post on SI the other day do you believe that cheating on your spouse is abuse. Lots of people answered and everyone said yes. So how in good conscience can anyone recommend people stay together then. The moral thing to do is tell them to stay away. 

Answer me this if this was physical abuse no one here (well maybe a few as we can see from the my husband raped me thread) would be recommending even thinking of staying together. Why is emotional abuse any different. No one can tell me that it is any less damaging.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> It is also called "taking responsibility for your own stuff."
> 
> Yes, the cheater should not have responded to their spouse being an utter swine by cheating.
> 
> ...


Cheating and bad marriages are two totally different things. I would applaud a spouse who is in a bad marriage if they leave, but once they cheat they loose the high ground. It's like using a nuclear bomb to solve a skirmish. At the point of the affair the marriage is over.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> That was rude and not helpful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why? It's true, cheaters attract other cheaters. Something to think about. 

Matt you are way to nice.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> The ones here fight it terribly. They cannot bear to take that level of responsibility.
> 
> And that is really too bad, especially in the case of WWs. The one main example of a reconciliation where the man did take responsibility, and asked his wife to tell him all the ways he hurt her, ended well. I wish more men could do this.


I would like to point out that you and jld are on the same page.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Don't bother wasting keystrokes on this one. Just roll your eyes like we all do and skip to the next post. Zero shame in her game.


jld is a misandrist, so much so that she removes women's agency in the process.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> If I understand your comments then you are saying the man is the dominant partner in the marriage. How he uses his power will decide if he or the wife cheats. If the wife gets upset it is because the husband misused his power and therefore the wife is justified in cheating. By this logic everything is always the man's fault.


Did you read post #115?



> That would eliminate the need for a separate forum as OP requested because we already know the reason for the cheating.
> 
> I personally always read the critiques of theories i adopt to make sure i have a balanced approach. Have you read the critiques of Gottman's work concerning his statistical method used for his studies? His predictive models were based on events that already occurred and never were tested in a followup study with a new data set of couples. That does not negate his models. It just means he did not actually test his models. As a scientist who does modeling i find that of concern. I wish he had tested his model.
> 
> ...


Sapientia already addressed this. His work is solid.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Yep. Read it.
> 
> So I take it that you have NOT read any of the actual studies. Nor considered any critique of his work.


So then you understand that I am not justifying affairs.

I have not read his research book, though I should. 

If Gottman's research were not solid, the competition of academia would have exposed him by now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps if you put down the bat you'd find people more willing to engage.
> 
> I don't want to shut down anyone's discussion. I just don't want to have one with you.


If you have a problem with what I say at least critique it? I have not made one personal post on this thread. I didn't even engage you until you tried to shut someone else down. Which is exactly what you said you were against, by the way. So where am I wrong, make sure you point to my posts though, not others.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> If you have a problem with what I say at least critique it? I have not made one personal post on this thread. I didn't even engage you until you tried to shut someone else down. Which is exactly what you said you were against, by the way. So where am I wrong, make sure you point to my posts though, not others.


I fail to understand where this "tried to shut someone else down" notion is coming from. 

Truthseeker1 has repeatedly made the statement that TAM is fine as-is, with no need to fulfill the thread subject request. I posted a different viewpoint, which was met with yet another "TAM is fine as-is" response. Look at the chronology. I haven't made even the slightest motion towards shutting someone else down. 

As for your posts, there's nothing wrong with them, but your viewpoint on the matter is well established. By your own admission you don't care to hear any viewpoint that might be remotely sympathetic to a WS and, unless I remember incorrectly, can't imagine a situation where you would much consider changing your mind. All WS are selfish uncaring a$$holes and all spouses who take them back are weak. Have I mischaracterized your one-size-fits-all view in any substantial way? 

I've been around here long enough to know when someone's mind is so thoroughly set on a subject that there is no point in having further discussion with them. Agree to disagree and all that. That's not shutting you down or discouraging your participation. That's facing reality.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Cletus - I didnt just merely repeat TAM is fine as is i also gave my reasons for it - too many rules, micromanaging interactions, etc...I have avoided continued participation in this thread because the arguments become circular - with each side digging in..I do feel strongly that TAM is fine the way it is for the reasons I've listed in previous posts and you obviously feel strongly about your perspecitve so we can agree to disagreee


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> I guess I really don't think there is anything to be learned by waywards posting their stories. You'll get the same rationalizations that most of you have already heard. Why, because no one wants to be seen as an unfeeling monster. People tend to rationalize, especially if they know they are being judged. Look, I'm a serial wayward. And no matter what any serial wayward will tell you, the only reason the cheating happened is because they think with their genitals a lot more than they should. A lot more than most other people. That's pretty much all there is to know.


See, not to make a g gender deal out of this, but this is more readily accepted about male cheaters vs female ( the thinking with their genitals deal).
But, I agree , there is little doubt that if an affair is sexual, that sexual desire played the major role in the cheater cheating, regardless of gender.
I have noticed that many in our society are terribly uncomfortable with the notion that not only are women every bit as desirous of sex as men, but they are every bit as dishonest as cheating men and unfeeling about the effects on their spouse and kids.
Back to the question of the desirability of a WS forum, I have found it enlightening to read the stuff the WS post as to their reasons, not because I believe they accurately describe their spouse or the state of their marriages( their rationalization hamsters are apparent), but it is an interesting study in how some people are very adept at manipulation and self delusion.
I see my WW's rationalization in their posts and see how many are really dishonest with others and themselves. Reading their stories re-enforces my decision to have divorced and reading the posts of those somewhat sympathetic to them re-enforces my belief that many people can be taken in by the justifications.
There is this idea that the cheater can and will change, and, while I do not discount that as a possibility, I think it highly unlikely that many can change at this point , so far into their adult lives.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> That explains a lot. While the heartache of a contested D has it's own set of challenges, I would offer that infidelity has its own very unique set of challenges, and the root problems that led to it requires deeper analysis and introspection. And then add R for those that want to try, requires even more "sole searching" to reach a recovery point. No one is blameless.


I disagree that the BS, necessarily, has to share some of the blame. The BS often is a very good spouse, doing his or her best and willing to address issues in the marriage. Some of us were married to spouses who were , in retrospect, not very good people. They hid it well during courtship, then the mask came off after enmeshment.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Cletus said:


> All WS are selfish uncaring a$$holes and all spouses who take them back are weak.


I wouldn't say "all" but "the majority of" in both cases is pretty accurate.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Cletus said:


> All WS are selfish uncaring a$$holes and all spouses who take them back are weak.


I have to agree with this brief yet accurate summary, although "selfish and uncaring" is not the complete list of character flaws that can be applied to the typical cheater. The one that comes to mind is "dishonest" - that's a big one, and no definition of a cheater is complete without it.

*Edited to add*. I did not realize when I quoted Cletus that he was actually paraphrasing another poster, those words do not necessarily represent his particular point of view.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> I disagree that the BS, necessarily, has to share some of the blame. The BS often is a very good spouse, doing his or her best and willing to address issues in the marriage. Some of us were married to spouses who were , in retrospect, not very good people. They hid it well during courtship, then the mask came off after enmeshment.


As is often stated on CWI, the affair, itself, is on the WS. But the state of the marriage is on BOTH spouses. And I believe that is what @MAJDEATH is alluding to. The BS needs to look back, WITH the WS, to see what the state of the marriage was *really* like before the affair. And, should they choose to reconcile, they do need to take into account *everything*. No, I don't believe the BS should be badgered into "it's all your fault I had the affair". But they do need to look at how often the WS said, in some way, that things were not as they should be... and do it without the preconceived "it wasn't as bad as he/she claims"... Are you sure? Are you really sure? It may not have been so bad to YOU, but if your spouse *did* voice concerns prior to the affair, then you are culpable... as far as the marital breakdown that did result in the affair. BOTH are responsible for the breakdown. The WS is responsible for the chosen action... just as the WS, had they opted for divorce, would be responsible for *that* choice. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Mclane said:


> I have to agree with this brief yet accurate summary, although "selfish and uncaring" is not the complete list of character flaws that can be applied to the typical cheater. The one that comes to mind is "dishonest" - that's a big one, and no definition of a cheater is complete without it.


Ohhhh... so YOU are the one I was actually referring to. I apologize, @sokillme, for addressing the wrong person on that particular point.

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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I think there is always something to learn from sharing these kinds of experiences. Some WS paid the price by losing their spouse/kids and learned from the experience, others reformed, others figured out they weren't cut out for monogamy, etc. Some are still learning. I doubt we'll hear much from an active BS, given the mob mentality of TAM for these people, but if even one does share and does learn from the experience, isn't that worth it?

If this section is too restimulating for any BS, perhaps they simply need not participate?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> I wouldn't say "all" but "the majority of" in both cases is pretty accurate.





Mclane said:


> I have to agree with this brief yet accurate summary, although "selfish and uncaring" is not the complete list of character flaws that can be applied to the typical cheater. The one that comes to mind is "dishonest" - that's a big one, and no definition of a cheater is complete without it.


And very nice picking out one particular sentence, when @Cletus was actually talking about a sentiment held by someone else. So kind of you to make it appear he held that sentiment, himself. Bravo...

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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> As is often stated on CWI, the affair, itself, is on the WS. But the state of the marriage is on BOTH spouses. .. BOTH are responsible for the breakdown.


Ok that's fair.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> And very nice picking out one particular sentence, when @Cletus was actually talking about a sentiment held by someone else. So kind of you to make it appear he held that sentiment, himself. Bravo...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I didn't realize those weren't Cletus's words until I read your post quoted above.

It was an honest mistake.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sapientia said:


> I think there is always something to learn from sharing these kinds of experiences. Some WS paid the price by losing their spouse/kids and learned from the experience, others reformed, others figured out they weren't cut out for monogamy, etc. Some are still learning. I doubt we'll hear much from an active BS, given the mob mentality of TAM for these people, but if even one does share and does learn from the experience, isn't that worth it?
> 
> *If this section is too restimulating for any BS, perhaps they simply need not participate?*


One would think, Sapi. Unfortunately, those who are still raw from betrayal are the ones who jump on Wayward threads, first. And they are the ones who end up being most vociferous. And the ones who are more into "crucifying" WS are the ones who keep hammering. The Voice of reason gets swallowed up by that "mob mentality". 😔

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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

So @MAJDEATH, 

This is why TAM does not have a forum for WS's. In real life, I think if a WS were to come here and write what they they truly think and feel, it would erupt into the sludgefest we have going on now. 

What I WISH, and I mean this sincerely... WISH, could happen is that WS's could come here, in their fog-filled, irrational state of mind, be honest with their thoughts and feelings, and one of the strong former-WS's could come along side and point out "Oh that's fog" or "Here's where you're not thinking clearly"... BEFORE the BS's come along and start namecalling and generalizing. I also suspect there's the potential to learn a lot about marriages and where people have weaknesses, etc. if we only had a safer place to talk. 

In my years here I've seen one or two stick around long enough to end their affair and tell their spouse the truth and reconcile, but it's EXTREMELY rare because once they get that "all cheaters are ___holes" post, most leave and never come back. Let's be honest--many WS's have a pride issue anyway, and they'd rather lose everything than admit they are wrong! But, in my personal opinion, some people who could have been turned around never get that chance because they are driven away. 

But that's TAM and I don't see it changing any time soon.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> And very nice picking out one particular sentence, when @Cletus was actually talking about a sentiment held by someone else. So kind of you to make it appear he held that sentiment, himself. Bravo...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Thanks for the disclaimer. I still stand by my statement regardless of who's opinion the original was.

Many TAMers share the sentiment Cletus paraphrased.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Thanks for the disclaimer. I still stand by my statement regardless of who's opinion the original was.
> 
> *Many TAMers share the sentiment Cletus paraphrased.*


Sadly, you are correct. Which is unfortunate.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Thanks for the disclaimer. I still stand by my statement regardless of who's opinion the original was.
> 
> Many TAMers share the sentiment Cletus paraphrased.


Not just TAMers. Although you don't see many of them here seeking advice, if they're faced with infidelity they just walk away, they don't ask how they can get the cheater back.



Maricha75 said:


> Sadly, you are correct. Which is unfortunate.


It's unfortunate that many people view cheating partners as selfish uncaring A-holes?

But.. they are!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Mclane said:


> Not just TAMers. Although you don't see many of them here seeking advice, if they're faced with infidelity they just walk away, they don't ask how they can get the cheater back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that so many are unwilling to look at how things were BEFORE the affair. It's unfortunate that so many are unable to accept that some ARE able to turn their lives around, recommit to their partners, and go on to live happy lives TOGETHER. It's unfortunate that many consider a betrayed spouse to be WEAK if he or she chooses to reconcile, rather than divorce. And, it is unfortunate that so many feel the blanket "all cheaters are x,y,z", no matter what. There is no way they will acknowledge that not every situation is the same as their own. THAT is what is unfortunate. 

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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> One would think, Sapi. Unfortunately, those who are still raw from betrayal are the ones who jump on Wayward threads, first. And they are the ones who end up being most vociferous. And the ones who are more into "crucifying" WS are the ones who keep hammering. The Voice of reason gets swallowed up by that "mob mentality". 😔
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


This is easily resolved with clear instructions from the mods about rules for the section and follow through. A couple of bans will get people in line. TAM should NOT become a damaged person's personal field of punching bags. Any latent anger should be resolved with the person who actually injured them, or a counsellor.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

To @Maricha ‘s point, I can tell you I talked until I was blue in the face to my husband before my ONS about the things that I was unhappy about. I’m not knocking what she said by any means, BUT it was always my CHOICE to cheat. However, the downfall of the marriage up until that point also rested on my husbands shoulders, along with mine. I should have left if I was so unhappy. I absolutely, 100% agree and state that that is true. I didn’t. Whether it was because I was too weak, had too low self esteem, don’t value myself enough, etc. Point being, I never left even though I was unhappy.

But that is not to say I didn’t try to communicate what I needed. I don’t think a lot of you understand how pathetically I tried to communicate what I needed. I lived with a man who never once complimented me. I have never heard my husband say the words “you’re beautiful”. On our wedding day, he told me I looked “cute”. I have never once heard my husband say the words “you look nice, I like that shirt, you smell good, I like the way you _________, I’m proud of you when you _________” My husband does not initiate affection that doesn’t lead to sex. If I initiate affection, it’s met half a$$ed, like I’m bothering him. The last time my husband sent me flowers was my 30th birthday. I’ll be 38 next month. We’ve been married 8 years. That means my husband has sent me flowers ONE time the entire time we’ve been married. My husband complained often about everything I did. Either my cooking wasn’t as good as his grandmas, I washed a shirt that he didn’t want washed – but never a thank you for the millions of other loads of laundry that I did. He has only recently – since February of THIS YEAR started saying “thanks for dinner”. When our friends would say “dude, you have the BEST wife” his response was “well you don’t have to live with her”. When I would bring up my concerns to him, the things that I was lacking his response was “then go find someone that is better than me”. I never got gifts “just because”. He didn’t ask my input on what cars were purchased, what color we painted rooms. I never got date nights, heck, I rarely got time with him at all because he’d play softball 4-5 nights a week and the other nights go to his friends house and watch football/baseball/basketball, play golf, go on guys weekends to the islands. Then lets talk about the fact that he talked to his ex girlfriend non stop for 10 years no matter how many times I told him I didn’t like it, it hurt me, it damaged our relationship, it made me feel bad. Let’s talk about the fact that he text another woman and asked her to send a picture of her boobs. Let’s talk about his porn addiction, his financial infidelity. The fact that he constantly lied to me about the stupidest things that he didn’t need to lie about. “I’m working late” when he just wanted to go to a friends house to watch a football game. The fact that if he didn’t want to go do something with someone he would tell them “Well, the wifes getting upset I’m going and doing too many things, she won’t let me go” and then he would tell me that his friends thought I kept him on a short leash. No wonder they thought I kept him on a short leash while he was lying and blaming ME for not going when I never told him not to go. He doesn’t help with housework. He doesn’t do laundry, dishes, sweep, mop, dust, take out the trash, run the kids around. 

I’ve only touched the surface above. Does that sound like a good marriage to you? If I’ve talked and talked and talked and talked about those things over the last 10 years and nothing has changed, does he have responsibility for the downfall of the marriage? Or does it strictly fall onto MY shoulders because I cheated one time for 30 seconds? I’m not minimizing what I did. It was AWFUL. But if THAT was my marriage pre-cheating, how happy do you think I was? I didn’t go out with the intention to cheat. I wasn’t looking for it. I’d never even thought of it. But in THAT moment, when every need that had been neglected the previous 7 years was being met, I failed. I fed in to every single smooth word that was said. I finally felt like a woman who was beautiful. I finally felt like I was being appreciated. Someone was interested in me. Someone wanted to hear me talk and touch me without being annoyed by it. It was like a drug to my soul. 

I am NOT blameless. The state of my marriage did not force me to cheat. That was a CHOICE that I made, that I quickly realized was wrong and I stopped. But before that, my marriage was a JOKE. And no amount of begging and pleading I did with my husband changed ANYTHING. 

Do you know what the first thing my husband said to me was? “I KNOW I wasn’t a good husband, but I didn’t deserve THIS”. And no, he didn’t deserve it. But the first thing he recognized AFTER I did what I did was that he had not been a good husband. I’m not saying I was a perfect wife, I’m strictly talking about him right now. 

You can tell me my action was more severe than his, and to a big extent, I will agree with you. I HATE what I did. If I was so unhappy, I should have left. I will never say that isn’t true. But up until the very minute I did what I did, I had hoped, cried, prayed, sobbed and begged for him to see all of the ways our marriage was falling apart. And he could never see it. He didn’t want to put any effort in.

So now we decided to stay together.

Last night, after my nightly bath of washing with coconut soap, mango body wash and hibiscus coconut lotion that I cover my body in, I asked my husband “how come you never tell me I smell nice?” 

His response was to plug his nose and look at me funny (joking around that I didn’t smell nice). I said “I’m serious”. His response was “you take everything too damn serious”.

So here we are 5 months into reconciliation. I have changed more things about myself in the last 6 months than I can count. He’s admitted he wasn’t a good husband. He still doesn’t compliment me. He’s still never told me I’m beautiful. He still doesn’t tell me I smell nice, he likes my shirt, I look nice. He still doesn’t do any laundry, dishes, cook or clean. He’s golfing and playing softball constantly. He still doesn’t send me flowers. He still tells me I’m difficult and hard to love. He blames every single thing that happens on me. 

So let me ask you, the state of this marriage going forward – who is responsible for the downfall of it? I am still begging and pleading with my husband for the things that I need to help me feel wanted in this marriage and they aren’t being met. He’s still acting the same way he was pre-affair, AFTER admitting to not being a good husband. 

I will NOT cheat on him again. I’d rather die. So the choice is for me to stay or leave. But if I choose to leave now, who does the fault rest on? Me? Him? Or both of us?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I fail to understand where this "tried to shut someone else down" notion is coming from.
> 
> Truthseeker1 has repeatedly made the statement that TAM is fine as-is, with no need to fulfill the thread subject request. I posted a different viewpoint, which was met with yet another "TAM is fine as-is" response. Look at the chronology. I haven't made even the slightest motion towards shutting someone else down.
> 
> ...


"I'll try to be better in the future." this little passive aggressive swipe is why I called you out. It is hard to take you seriously when you are telling someone that they are stifling debate when you throw that out there just to stifle debate. 

You have mischaracterized my point to an extent. I do have sympathy for WS to a point in the same way I have sympathy for a dunk driver who is an alcoholic. I am sorry they destroyed their life with alcohol I am sympathetic to that. But that is where it stops I am not sympathetic to any kind of justification for driving drunk. Also I feel much worse for the person they killed with their car.

There are some WS on SI that I even admire for their effort. LoosingHim seems like a great example of this. However LH is a very rare example. 

You are right in some ways though I still don't think it is a good idea for their BS to take even contrite WS back for the most part. Excluding some circumstances such as old age or financial ruin. Maybe the possible drunken ONS that is confessed right away, though I couldn't do it. 

While I believe that many BS take their WS back for the wrong reasons I wouldn't call it weakness. Sometimes it's fear though and that is not a good reason. I would like to encourage these people and give them strength so they can leave a bad situation. I think this is exactly what Cumplady does and it's a wonderful thing. 

I said at the beginning of this thread that I am OK with a WS thread if it is not censored except in the case of abuse. But speaking the truth about the situation is not abuse unlike some people on her think. Abuse is only personal attacks. Saying you did X,Y,Z is not a personal attack. 

However as I said 8 pages and we are already starting with the excuses about why affairs happen, even to the point of saying it's the BS fault why it happened, this doesn't give me much hope. This to me is akin to saying a woman gets raped because of the clothes she wears. That is just pathetic and victim blaming and if that is what the section dissolves into then forget it, I don't want to hear it.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> It's unfortunate that so many are unwilling to look at how things were BEFORE the affair. It's unfortunate that so many are unable to accept that some ARE able to turn their lives around, recommit to their partners, and go on to live happy lives TOGETHER. It's unfortunate that many consider a betrayed spouse to be WEAK if he or she chooses to reconcile, rather than divorce. And, it is unfortunate that so many feel the blanket "all cheaters are x,y,z", no matter what. There is no way they will acknowledge that not every situation is the same as their own. THAT is what is unfortunate.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


There will always be people who will choose to be angry and miserable. Personal responsibility is a hard thing to accept, particularly when life throws you a curve ball.

I've never experienced cheating but I did once experience a very abusive workplace situation. Without boring gory details, I was recruited hard to join a new group and quickly found out all that glitters was definitely not gold. So I gave myself time to decide what *I* wanted and then I took action. Shocked hell out of the EVP when I resigned, never saw it coming. Corporate life is full of sociopath types and it was my turn to experience one. Shrug and never again. I live by the "fool me once" philosophy. I trust my gut and my own assessment of a situation. I'm okay with making a mistake, but I'm not okay with not quickly fixing it. My error was in not doing my homework and ignoring red flags. It was a while ago, but I still have colleagues contacting me about doing the same thing. I basically tell them what I've said here. Most have gotten to the right answer for themselves.

Some people tolerate poor behaviour from others, and others don't. It's a spectrum and my own tolerance for crap was drained from my own decades long dysfunctional marriage. Hard won lesson learned. Some people secretly enjoy the conflict, or being a martyr, or any of a number of dysfunctional responses other than taking THEMSELVES in hand and changing their situation. It's a journey toward self-awareness and it's hard for some folks to turn an unclouded eye inward and truly see themselves, warts and all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> To @Maricha ‘s point, I can tell you I talked until I was blue in the face to my husband before my ONS about the things that I was unhappy about. I’m not knocking what she said by any means, BUT it was always my CHOICE to cheat. However, the downfall of the marriage up until that point also rested on my husbands shoulders, along with mine. I should have left if I was so unhappy. I absolutely, 100% agree and state that that is true. I didn’t. Whether it was because I was too weak, had too low self esteem, don’t value myself enough, etc. Point being, I never left even though I was unhappy.
> 
> But that is not to say I didn’t try to communicate what I needed. I don’t think a lot of you understand how pathetically I tried to communicate what I needed. I lived with a man who never once complimented me. I have never heard my husband say the words “you’re beautiful”. On our wedding day, he told me I looked “cute”. I have never once heard my husband say the words “you look nice, I like that shirt, you smell good, I like the way you _________, I’m proud of you when you _________” My husband does not initiate affection that doesn’t lead to sex. If I initiate affection, it’s met half a$$ed, like I’m bothering him. The last time my husband sent me flowers was my 30th birthday. I’ll be 38 next month. We’ve been married 8 years. That means my husband has sent me flowers ONE time the entire time we’ve been married. My husband complained often about everything I did. Either my cooking wasn’t as good as his grandmas, I washed a shirt that he didn’t want washed – but never a thank you for the millions of other loads of laundry that I did. He has only recently – since February of THIS YEAR started saying “thanks for dinner”. When our friends would say “dude, you have the BEST wife” his response was “well you don’t have to live with her”. When I would bring up my concerns to him, the things that I was lacking his response was “then go find someone that is better than me”. I never got gifts “just because”. He didn’t ask my input on what cars were purchased, what color we painted rooms. I never got date nights, heck, I rarely got time with him at all because he’d play softball 4-5 nights a week and the other nights go to his friends house and watch football/baseball/basketball, play golf, go on guys weekends to the islands. Then lets talk about the fact that he talked to his ex girlfriend non stop for 10 years no matter how many times I told him I didn’t like it, it hurt me, it damaged our relationship, it made me feel bad. Let’s talk about the fact that he text another woman and asked her to send a picture of her boobs. Let’s talk about his porn addiction, his financial infidelity. The fact that he constantly lied to me about the stupidest things that he didn’t need to lie about. “I’m working late” when he just wanted to go to a friends house to watch a football game. The fact that if he didn’t want to go do something with someone he would tell them “Well, the wifes getting upset I’m going and doing too many things, she won’t let me go” and then he would tell me that his friends thought I kept him on a short leash. No wonder they thought I kept him on a short leash while he was lying and blaming ME for not going when I never told him not to go. He doesn’t help with housework. He doesn’t do laundry, dishes, sweep, mop, dust, take out the trash, run the kids around.
> 
> ...



So though this doesn't excuse the ONS I am terribly sympathetic to this. This is just plain awful LH. I think you should move on, you could do better at this point. He doesn't appreciate you. My opinion is it is not on you if you leave but it is on you if you stay. He is not going to change so if you are going to stay you have to accept it. 

I guess I did stick to my standard divorce point. But really what else can she do. :frown2:


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Or does it strictly fall onto MY shoulders because I cheated one time for 30 seconds? I’m not minimizing what I did.


Actually that's exactly what you're doing.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Mclane said:


> Ok that's fair.


Many times the WS is more responsible due to the same character flaws that led them to cheat.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> So though this doesn't excuse the ONS I am terribly sympathetic to this. This is just plain awful LH. I think you should move on, you could do better at this point. He doesn't appreciate you. My opinion is it is not on you if you leave but it is on you if you stay. He is not going to change so if you are going to stay you have to accept it.
> 
> I guess I did stick to my standard divorce point. But really what else can she do. :frown2:


I think, at this point, if LH doesn't have a time frame in place for things to improve to what is needed, then one should be put in place. It's currently slow moving (per her own thread), but it is moving in a (mostly) positive direction. BUT (and this is where I may shock you!)... if either J (her husband) or she ends up allowing old habits to creep in, or there is no longer any real progress, then definitely look at divorce. When it comes to R, BOTH parties need to be willing to work... together. And of only one is doing it, then divorce would be the better option.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mclane said:


> Not just TAMers. Although you don't see many of them here seeking advice, if they're faced with infidelity they just walk away, they don't ask how they can get the cheater back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think she meant the BS are weak part.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Mclane said:


> Actually that's exactly what you're doing.


You have read her thread, right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> So though this doesn't excuse the ONS I am terribly sympathetic to this. This is just plain awful LH. I think you should move on, you could do better at this point. He doesn't appreciate you.
> 
> I guess I did stick to my standard divorce point. But really what else can she do. :frown2:


No, it doesn’t excuse my ONS. NOTHING will ever excuse that. I should’ve left long before I did what I did if I was so unhappy. 

My point is………not every WS rewrites history. Not every WS goes out looking for some strange. Some WS beg and plead for a better marriage long before they do what they do. That doesn’t excuse them, especially those that have zero remorse. My point is, some people feel so neglected for so long, they get in over their head before they know what hit them. 

I never wanted to give up on my husband. I never wanted to damage things beyond repair. I just wanted to be loved. I’d always held on to hope that some day he would see that I wasn’t worth losing. That some day he’d hear all the things that I was saying because no matter all his faults, I still loved him. It never happened. It still isn’t happening. To a small degree some things have changed, but not the big things I’ve been begging for for 10 years. 

He’s choosing to further damage our marriage, just as I chose to damage it by cheating. And coming from the viewpoint of also being betrayed, I can tell you, his choice to not try to make this marriage better hurts almost as bad as his EA did. 

I’m not ready to give up yet. I’m too forgiving. Or I have low self esteem, or whatever it may be. Or I just have too much hope that I shouldn’t have. I’m not sure what exactly it is.

But what I CAN tell you is, sometimes things ARE really bad before someone cheats. And sometimes people DO try to fix those things before they do the worst thing they can possibly do. It doesn’t make it the BS fault that the WS cheated, but the fact that the WS cheated does not always outweigh the state of the marriage caused 50% by the BS.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> It's unfortunate that so many are unwilling to look at how things were BEFORE the affair. It's unfortunate that so many are unable to accept that some ARE able to turn their lives around, recommit to their partners, and go on to live happy lives TOGETHER. It's unfortunate that many consider a betrayed spouse to be WEAK if he or she chooses to reconcile, rather than divorce. And, it is unfortunate that so many feel the blanket "all cheaters are x,y,z", no matter what. There is no way they will acknowledge that not every situation is the same as their own. THAT is what is unfortunate.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


At the point when the WS starts to cheat they are selfish and awful, you can't say they are not. They had choices, they could leave. No reasonable person would begrudge them for leaving. I choose to look at the marriage and the cheating as two separate things. I can call both awful. Someones bad behavior doesn't justify others bad behavior.

One caveat I will say though is I don't have a problem with a BS being with someone after they are cheated on because to me the contract is void. I do think it is a mistake if they want to get back together but I don't think it is a moral one necessarily as long as all parties know what the deal is and the other party is single.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> My point is………not every WS rewrites history. Not every WS goes out looking for some strange. Some WS beg and plead for a better marriage long before they do what they do. That doesn’t excuse them, especially those that have zero remorse. My point is, some people feel so neglected for so long, they get in over their head before they know what hit them.


Again this is why there should be more encouragement to leave. To not live in fear.

So why didn't you leave LH? Was it fear? Is that why you won't leave now. If everything you say is true I believe you have it in you to have a very happy marriage to someone who has just a little bit of empathy and tenderness. I hope you find that.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Mclane said:


> Actually that's exactly what you're doing.


If you think I've EVER minimized what I did, then you haven't read enough of what I post.

For purposes of this thread alone, I have not gone into full detail of my thoughts of myself or my actions. I also stated in my post that RIGHT NOW I was only talking about his contribution to the state of our marriage pre and post affair.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> As is often stated on CWI, the affair, itself, is on the WS. But the state of the marriage is on BOTH spouses. And I believe that is what @MAJDEATH is alluding to. The BS needs to look back, WITH the WS, to see what the state of the marriage was *really* like before the affair. And, should they choose to reconcile, they do need to take into account *everything*. No, I don't believe the BS should be badgered into "it's all your fault I had the affair". But they do need to look at how often the WS said, in some way, that things were not as they should be... and do it without the preconceived "it wasn't as bad as he/she claims"... Are you sure? Are you really sure? It may not have been so bad to YOU, but if your spouse *did* voice concerns prior to the affair, then you are culpable... as far as the marital breakdown that did result in the affair. BOTH are responsible for the breakdown. The WS is responsible for the chosen action... just as the WS, had they opted for divorce, would be responsible for *that* choice.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Not necessarily. The analysis needs to be more sophisticated than there are two in the marriage so responsibility is shared. IMO, you need to look at the fact that in a WS, you are dealing with a deeply flawed,dishonest person.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Or does it strictly fall onto MY shoulders because I cheated one time for 30 seconds? I’m not minimizing what I did.





Mclane said:


> Actually that's exactly what you're doing.


 @LosingHim - Why are you asking this? You know the cheating is on you, and you know -- hopefully -- that your marriage problems is on both of you.

The fact that you cheated doesn't absolve your H of anything HE did in your marriage to contribute to the dysfunction. It sounds like he did a lot to harm you.

The fact you cheated isn't a free pass for him and HIS issues. Not at all. Many BS wrap the betrayal around them like a blanket that allows them to believe this. Not so. Tell anyone who suggests this to fcuk off.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> But what I CAN tell you is, sometimes things ARE really bad before someone cheats. And sometimes people DO try to fix those things before they do the worst thing they can possibly do. It doesn’t make it the BS fault that the WS cheated, but the fact that the WS cheated does not always outweigh the state of the marriage caused 50% by the BS.


I agree but like I said they are two separate things and need to be dealt with separately.

Here is a thing I don't understand, if you are to the point where you are willing to have an exit affair, then shouldn't that be it after you do. Why do you think staying is going to make it better. It wasn't good before there was an affair in the middle of your marriage how can it possibly be any better after. I think that this is just too much water under the bridge to recover. 

By the way sometimes love is not enough in life when it comes to relationships you know?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> It is also called "taking responsibility for your own stuff."
> 
> Yes, the cheater should not have responded to their spou se being an utter swine by cheating.
> 
> ...


Yeah,how many BSs were "utter swine". That is a myth. Sounds like you have watched too many movies. "Utter swine". Where do you come up with that. Was your wife an " utter swine" and that is why you cheated?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> I agree but like I said they are two separate things and need to be dealt with separately.
> 
> Here is a thing I don't understand, if you are to the point where you are willing to have an exit affair, then shouldn't that be it after you do. Why do you think staying is going to make it better. It wasn't good before there was an affair in the middle of your marriage how can it possibly be any better after. I think that this is just too much water under the bridge to recover.
> 
> By the way sometimes love is not enough in life when it comes to relationships you know?


I never planned to have an ext affair. I never planned or looked for an affair. After I did it, I've done nothing but wish I never did.

I can't leave until I know I've given it everything I've got. Right, wrong or indifferent, I'm not ready to give up. Although given the current state of my marriage, I don't have confidence that it will last forever. No matter how much I wish we could work on it for that to happen. Right now I'm just trying to enjoy the time I have and make the best out of every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sapientia said:


> Tell anyone who suggests this to fcuk off.


That could get her banned, Sapi. :rofl:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Here is a thing I don't understand, if you are to the point where you are willing to have an exit affair, then shouldn't that be it after you do. Why do you think staying is going to make it better. It wasn't good before there was an affair in the middle of your marriage how can it possibly be any better after. I think that this is just too much water under the bridge to recover.


A lot of people who take the rational steps to divorce experience a time when they think they want to go back. I experienced this. TAM folks helped me learn that wasn't actually what I wanted, but I still experienced the emotions. Several weeks and pages before I managed to clamp down on them and, objectively, I have a lot of self-control relative to most. It isn't an easy thing.

There is a lot of psychology and physiology behind attachment. I think what happens is people go through relationship withdrawal, just like an addict.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> That could get her banned, Sapi. :rofl:
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


That's okay, I'm pretty sure I just did it for her, and in a way that won't get me banned. 

:grin2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Yeah,how many BSs were "utter swine". That is a myth. Sounds like you have watched too many movies. "Utter swine". Where do you come up with that. Was your wife an " utter swine" and that is why you cheated?


My opinion is based on years of living. Plus reading thousands and thousands of threads and posts on TAM, and participating on many of them.

Also, my wife cheated on me, I had a revenge affair.

You were saying?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I can't leave until I know I've given it everything I've got. Right, wrong or indifferent, I'm not ready to give up.


Yep, been there, without the affair. Attachment hormones. Emotional heroin, it's what I said in the other thread.

Get off the needle, LH. Once you have, you'll wonder why you didn't sooner. BTW, what worked for me was a bit of self-psych where I told myself I was doing BOTH myself and my ex a good turn.

It was the truth, btw. Just something for you to think about if you are both making each other miserable.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sapientia said:


> A lot of people who take the rational steps to divorce experience a time when they think they want to go back. I experienced this. TAM folks helped me learn that wasn't actually what I wanted, but I still experienced the emotions. Several weeks and pages before I managed to clamp down on them and, objectively, I have a lot of self-control relative to most. It isn't an easy thing.
> 
> There is a lot of psychology and physiology behind attachment. I think what happens is people go through relationship withdrawal, just like an addict.


You're right, I remember when I was cheated on I had about a month where I was desperately trying to go back to what we had. Finally the realization that it would never be the same became too much. It was a sad day, but I am so glad I moved forward. Are you?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Yep, been there, without the affair. Attachment hormones. Emotional heroin, it's what I said in the other thread.
> 
> Get off the needle, LH. Once you have, you'll wonder why you didn't sooner. BTW, what worked for me was a bit of self-psych where I told myself I was doing BOTH myself and my ex a good turn.
> 
> It was the truth, btw. Just something for you to think about if you are both making each other miserable.


Good possibility that if asked,her husband would have his own set of complaints about LH.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> My opinion is based on years of living. Plus reading thousands and thousands of threads and posts on TAM, and participating on many of them.
> 
> Also, my wife cheated on me, I had a revenge affair.
> 
> You were saying?


Do you feel most BS are utter swine?:|


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> My opinion is based on years of living. Plus reading thousands and thousands of threads and posts on TAM, and participating on many of them.
> 
> Also, my wife cheated on me, I had a revenge affair.
> 
> You were saying?


Why can't both suck, both the bad spouse and the spouse having the affair. What you are doing is excusing one's bad behavior because of anothers. nope, both are bad in different ways.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Not necessarily. The analysis needs to be more sophisticated than there are two in the marriage so responsibility is shared. IMO, you need to look at the fact that in a WS, you are dealing with a deeply flawed,dishonest person.


I'm sorry, but no. Anything that occurred before any cheating *is* the responsibility of BOTH parties. And, again, think back to how many times, if any, the WS DID voice concern over the state of the marriage. If they choose to reconcile, the WS has to say, "Ok, I am owning my actions. I am taking full responsibility for all I did prior to the affair, as well as the affair, itself." The BS is NOT absolved of ALL fault. NO HE/SHE IS NOT AT FAULT FOR THE *AFFAIR *. But, the BS responds, again if reconciling, "I also own my own actions prior to the affair. And we BOTH need to put forth the effort to reconnect and STAY connected, from this point on." The WS is, in NO WAY, absolved of his or her actions, and BOTH make a commitment to ensure there is no disconnect. 

I'm sorry, but if it is just "that simple" that the WS is the horrible monster that too many seem to think, then it is just as "that simple" that both spouses are responsible for PRE-AFFAIR marital issues. 

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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Good possibility that if asked,her husband would have his own set of complaints about LH.


Indeed, he does, which she listed in her own thread. And also are not excuses for his own emotional affair. 

You were saying?

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> It's unfortunate that so many are unwilling to look at how things were BEFORE the affair. It's unfortunate that so many are unable to accept that some ARE able to turn their lives around, recommit to their partners, and go on to live happy lives TOGETHER. It's unfortunate that many consider a betrayed spouse to be WEAK if he or she chooses to reconcile, rather than divorce. And, it is unfortunate that so many feel the blanket "all cheaters are x,y,z", no matter what. There is no way they will acknowledge that not every situation is the same as their own. THAT is what is unfortunate.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think many do look back on the pre affair marriage,but with greater clarity and the WS's narcissism is looked at more clearl,now.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> No, it doesn’t excuse my ONS. NOTHING will ever excuse that. I should’ve left long before I did what I did if I was so unhappy.
> 
> My point is………not every WS rewrites history. Not every WS goes out looking for some strange. Some WS beg and plead for a better marriage long before they do what they do. That doesn’t excuse them, especially those that have zero remorse. My point is, some people feel so neglected for so long, they get in over their head before they know what hit them.
> 
> ...


I think most cheaters lie to themsel d's about their own role in the state of the marriage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> I think many do look back on the pre affair marriage,but with greater clarity and the WS's narcissism is looked at more clearl,now.


Or, they look back and see that they really were the @$$ that the WS said, but they were too self-absorbed to see it back then.

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sa
The fact that you cheated doesn't absolve your H of anything HE did in your marriage to contribute to the dysfunction. It sounds like he did a lot to harm you.
The fact you cheated isn't a free pass for him and HIS issues. Not at all. Many BS wrap the betrayal around them like a blanket that allows them to believe this. Not so. Tell anyone who suggests this to fcuk off.[/QUOTE said:


> Not true,IMO. I have observed the opposite with BSs trying desperately to take too much responsibility.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> If a BS needs to believe that the WS is broken, flawed, defective etc then that is ok. It doesn't really matter what is the truth. It is their way to deal with the event and make sense in their mind as to what happened and why it happened.
> 
> But that thinking prevents the BS from the self reflection needed for them to understand the role they had in the failure of the marriage.


I do not see perceiving a WS as flawed etc.as preventing self reflection. In fact,it often causes one to reassess his or her picker.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Lardo said:


> Good possibility that if asked,her husband would have his own set of complaints about LH.


There's not a "good chance" that he had his own set of complaints. He HAS his own set of complaints. And they're a long list. I have stated I'm not a perfect wife, outside of my affair. Pre or post. 

Wanna hear them? 

I'm too emotional. I cry too easily and read too much into things and react with too much emotion.

I'm insecure and jealous.

I b*tch at him about money.

When I feel neglected by him, I get an attitude and let my attitude dictate how I treat him.

I'm only happy if I get my own way.

I've acted inappropriately around male friends (perverted and inappropriate sense of humor)

I've gravitated towards men for friendships rather than women.

I seek attention on social media by posting selfies and one time posting a bathing suit picture when I'd lost a lot of weight.

I don't communicate well.

There's more but I doubt I need to go on. 

The difference is, he NEVER communicated those things UNTIL we separated. Since then, I've driven everyone on TAM crazy with my 100+ page threat trying to correct those behaviors, learn from them, change them. I've changed a lot of them. Some are new to me as of last week when he and I had a long discussion. But I recognize them, own them, have stopped a lot of them, working on changing more. I can't change it all over night, still trying to figure out if some of them CAN be changed. But IM working on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Not true,IMO. I have observed the opposite with BSs trying desperately to take too much responsibility.


Odd. I have seen more BS try to say they were blameless for anything before the affair. Guess we aren't reading the same threads.

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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Maricha75 said:


> Or, they look back and see that they really were the @$$ that the WS said, but they were too self-absorbed to see it back then.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


This is all fine and dandy if true but not all BS were bad spouses. My bet is many were good but just married to selfish people. 

IF they were a bad spouse then yes looking back before the affair could be helpful if the intent is to reconcile. However that is not the goal of all BS. In my case all I looked toward was getting out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I like your thinking. I just separately posted same message but substituted betrayed for cheater.


We do not seem to have empirical evidence either way. I just feel that someone capable of such long term lying,as required by cheating,likely lies in other areas.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Odd. I have seen more BS try to say they were blameless for anything before the affair. Guess we aren't reading the same threads.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yes,very odd.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

What I see here in this discussion is people using extremes - my WS is just a nympho or a psycho or the BS didnt have sex with me for 20 years, didn't wash their feet and made me kiss their toes..they are awful!! The fact is infidelity occurs i many "normal" marriages - maybe not stellar marriages but ones where the WS chose to cheat out of selfishness. The perceived trangessions of the BS are nowhere near what @Maricha75 describes - typically its been my experience both are unhappy BUT only the WS chooses to cheat. They have a really sh!tty coping mechanism. If you read threads where cheaters are shielded form reality their POV is breathtakingly self-centered - even the ones in R. I've read a case where the WW's BH was pulling the plug after a few years of trying and she is mad at him for "not being a man of his word" and sticking with the marriage. WTF? Are you kidding me? Is the BS always a saint - hell no but they are rarely the swine described here. 

And if they are swine does that make them a less sympathetic victim of infidelity? Sure it does but it doesn't change the fact that the infidelity is their WSs coping mechanism and its not a good one. Its been my experience like I stated earlier that more often than not people cheat in "normal" marriages - I know such people. 

The slugfest this thread has turned into should show just how corrosive and vile infidelity is. It strikes at the core of the person and arouses dark passions in all involved. When you cheat you turn down a dark road and anything can happen. There are consequences for arousing such emotions and more often than not the cheater is not prepared for that.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> There's not a "good chance" that he had his own set of complaints. He HAS his own set of complaints. And they're a long list. I have stated I'm not a perfect wife, outside of my affair. Pre or post.
> 
> Wanna hear them?
> 
> ...


Well,perhaps folks should be advising him to get out and that he could do better. Sounds equally bad as his deficiencies.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> This is all fine and dandy if true but not all BS were bad spouses. My bet is many were good but just married to selfish people.
> 
> IF they were a bad spouse then yes looking back before the affair could be helpful if the intent is to reconcile. However that is not the goal of all BS. In my case all I looked toward was getting out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just proof that no two situations are ever alike.

Good people get cheated on. "Bad" people get cheated on. 

There's no cut and dry for every situation where infidelity is involved. 

Some WS are scum who will always BE scum. Some BS are scum who will always be scum. 

There's no mold that every situation of infidelity comes out of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> What I see here in this discussion is people using extremes - my WS is just a nympho or a psycho or the BS didnt have sex with me for 20 years, didn't wash their feet and made me kiss their toes..they are awful!! The fact is infidelity occurs i many "normal" marriages - maybe not stellar marriages but ones where the WS chose to cheat out of selfishness. The perceived trangessions of the BS are nowhere near what @Maricha75 describes - typically its been my experience both are unhappy BUT only the WS chooses to cheat. They have a really sh!tty coping mechanism. If you read threads where cheaters are shielded form reality their POV is breathtakingly self-centered - even the ones in R. I've read a case where the WW's BH was pulling the plug after a few years of trying and she is mad at him for "not being a man of his word" and sticking with the marriage. WTF? Are you kidding me? Is the BS always a saint - hell no but they are rarely the swine described here.
> 
> And if they are swine does that make them a less sympathetic victim of infidelity? Sure it does but it doesn't change the fact that the infidelity is their WSs coping mechanism and its not a good one. Its been my experience like I stated earlier that more often than not people cheat in "normal" marriages - I know such people.
> 
> The slugfest this thread has turned into should show just how corrosive and vile infidelity is. It strikes at the core of the person and arouses dark passions in all involved. When you cheat you turn down a dark road and anything can happen. Their are consequences for arousing such emotions and more often than not the cheater is not prepared for that.


Also a pure examination of the relationship prior to affair only helps in certain instances. I know a plenty of infidelity that was was the result of drunken one night affairs from a BNO or GNO. Neither of those spouses were unhappy but they are included in this as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@LosingHim - your situation is not the norm and your indiscretion if I remember correctly was brief. I've read your posts - not all of them (you can flame me if you want to) but you seem to be trying to love a man who does not exist. I mean after your A came to light he hung around with the OM correct? What BH does that without putting his fist down the OMs throat?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> Just proof that no two situations are ever alike.
> 
> Good people get cheated on. "Bad" people get cheated on.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Also just because a BS says they have no fault in an affair doesn't mean they are on a pillar of righteousness . I know I am flawed and I know I am not perfect. I know I was a "nice guy " and gave in too much and probably lost some respect in her eyes. But deserved to be cheated on ... Nope
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Lardo said:


> Well,perhaps folks should be advising him to get out and that he could do better. Sounds equally bad as his deficiencies.


Yeah, he can probably do better. And he's free to do so if he chooses.

I'm not here to argue which one of us is the worse spouse. 

We've both been pretty sh*tty spouses.

If he wants to find "better" - more power to him.

However, I'M still standing by HIS side with the hope and support that he'll reflect within himself and want to be a better mate. While I'm trying to be a better mate. 

And if my best aint good enough, then it is what it is. But at least I'll be able to say I gave my best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Also a pure examination of the relationship prior to affair only helps in certain instances. I know a plenty of infidelity that was was the result of drunken one night affairs from a BNO or GNO. Neither of those spouses were unhappy but they are included in this as well
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know of one case where the wife and husband were going through a rough patch and she was sleeping with her former boss. Wasnt an extended period of time for the rough patch but there was a boss she had the hots for and used the rough patch as an excuse to shag him - in her house. The only reason it ended is he got what he wanted and dumped her. Her H was not perfect but neither was he a POS.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Yeah, he can probably do better. And he's free to do so if he chooses.
> 
> I'm not here to argue which one of us is the worse spouse.
> 
> ...


Right. And he is standing by you,as well,despite the cheating and your other issues. Maybe he is hoping you change,too.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

sokillme said:


> You're right, I remember when I was cheated on I had about a month where I was desperately trying to go back to what we had. Finally the realization that it would never be the same became too much. It was a sad day, but I am so glad I moved forward. *Are you?*


Absolutely. Like you, it was sad at the time and an adjustment. Now, life for me has never been better.

Now, full disclosure, there wasn't cheating involved in my divorce. Lots of other dark things, some here might throw out 'emotionally abusive', but I'm pretty agnostic about the whole thing now. There was plenty of dysfunction from each of us.

Our instinct is to avoid pain, as rapidly as possible. Some painful experiences just need to be lived through, however, and running away is exactly the wrong thing to do.

I'm sorry for your experience. I'm glad you found your peace. :smile2:


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> This is all fine and dandy if true but not all BS were bad spouses. My bet is many were good but just married to selfish people.
> 
> IF they were a bad spouse then yes looking back before the affair could be helpful if the intent is to reconcile. However that is not the goal of all BS. In my case all I looked toward was getting out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No argument from me. I don't subscribe to "all or nothing" in this. Some were good spouses, some were bad. Some look back and see that their WS was, indeed, a narcissistic @$$hole/b*tch. Some look back and see that, yes, the WS tried to alert him/her to the problems. It doesn't excuse the choice the WS made, by any means. What it DOES do is open the eyes of BOTH parties, so they can see if the marriage is too far gone or if THEY feel there is something worth saving. I don't begrudge anyone the choice they make... whether to stay or go. The only thing I am saying, here, is it isn't all cut and dry. And I wish more would see that.

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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Lardo said:


> Right. And he is standing by you,as well,despite the cheating and your other issues. Maybe he is hoping you change,too.


And I stood by him despite his cheating - which lasted 10 years btw.

And did you not read where I wrote that I am working on changing the things he has issues with? I'm trying. That's all I can do at this point. 

And if it's not enough, then he can choose to stop working on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> However, I'M still standing by HIS side with the hope and support that he'll reflect within himself and want to be a better mate. While I'm trying to be a better mate.


Congratulations and good luck. I hope that you are honest with yourself about why you chose this path. If its because you truly love him and your marriage, I wish you the best.

If, however, it's really because you fear what will come after you--or he--leaves (say, perhaps b/c he is the primary earner?), then you are in for a darker road ahead. Sticking ones head in the sand never prevents the tide from coming in.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> I am not sure you understood my post.


Deliberate misunderstanding, methinks.

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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Right. *And he is standing by you,as well,despite the cheating and your other issues?*


Excellent question. Prepare to investigate dark, belly button spaces!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Well,perhaps folks should be advising him to get out and that he could do better. Sounds equally bad as his deficiencies.


Pretty sure the OW did exactly that for 10 years...

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I am not sure you understood my post.


Then why not explain it ?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Now you sound like Unicus


Hey now! None of that! 😡

And that was SHAKESPEARE I was (sort of) quoting, thank you very much! 😛

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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Here's the unpleasant truth:

1. Excellent spouses who are *truly* blindsided by a WS must have some problem with their self-esteem or picker. There are always red flags with truly evil, manipulative people or those with a mental disorder or just plain selfish. Anyone who says otherwise is either very naive or disingenuous.

I would argue that being truly blindsided is very rare for the average intelligent person who is reasonably self-aware. Cue the stereotypical "good wife" who chooses to overlook her husband's tendency to check out other women b/c he happens to bring home a fat paycheque. Or a man who chooses the hot wife over the 'nice girl', ignoring signs she is high-maintenance and attention seeking, because having a hot wife strokes his ego and rep with his buddies.

These people made their choices for their own reasons to set themselves up with people who are, let's call them, "higher risk" for an affair. Eyes wide shut. None of this excuses the WS for their behaviour, but it does up the responsibility level for the BS. I get that some will be very uncomfortable with this concept, which I would argue is part of their problem.

2. Spouses who both contribute to relationship dysfunction often "betray" their spouses, but they call it different things. Overt cheating is just a particularly nasty, blatant form of it. Shaming, withholding sex, emotional or financial abuse, being miserable/uncommunicative/unsupportive, often over a period of years... these are all forms of betrayal, IMO.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Excellent question. Prepare to investigate dark, belly button spaces!


Too much lint.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Here's the unpleasant truth:
> 
> 1. Excellent spouses who are truly blindsided by a WS must have some problem with their self-esteem or picker. There are always red flags with truly evil, manipulative people or those with a mental disorder or just plain selfish. Anyone who says otherwise is either very naive or disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Based on my own experience in picking,I disagree. Yes,I was young,but the signs were not evident. A true NPD may be difficult for the normal person to spot. They seem to be very good markers.
My Xw looked good,but,she also had an advanced degree,a good job and came from a good family( at least on the surface).
I did not marry right away and got to know the image she presented so well. Despite my youth,I dare say even older,more experienced folks would have been taken in.
And,my self esteem was good. I had been a good student,really good athlete and was progressing nicely in my career.
Sometimes,one just gets taken in,despite having normal sophistication for one's age and decent self esteem.
Your theory on this fails to consider the talent for deception of many Cluster B's and that many of us were ,merely,at a normal level of life experience for our age vs being naive.
Perhaps your navel might help you understand this (remove lint first).


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Here's the unpleasant truth:
> 
> 1. Excellent spouses who are truly blindsided by a WS must have some problem with their self-esteem or picker. There are always red flags with truly evil, manipulative people or those with a mental disorder or just plain selfish. Anyone who says otherwise is either very naive or disingenuous.
> 
> ...


An oftcited,and fairly obvious distinction between cheating and other forms of what you term betrayal,is the clandestine nature of cheatin vs the a betrayal that is open and obvious.
Cheating deprives the BS of informed choice and robs time. The others,while wrong,at least allow a victim the opportunity to conserve time and get out.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> You have read her thread, right?


Don't recall, but her rather lengthly post gave plenty of info. She went on and on about the horrible things, then spoke about her "brief 30 second affair" followed up by "I'm not minimizing my affair" and I felt obligated to issue a correction.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Mclane said:


> Don't recall, but her rather lengthly post gave plenty of info. She went on and on about the horrible things, then spoke about her "brief 30 second affair" followed up by "I'm not minimizing my affair" and I felt obligated to issue a correction.


For ten years, her husband minimized his EA. So, when she talks about 30 seconds, she means that, literally. 30 seconds into a blow job that she was backed into a (figurative) corner to give, she stopped. When she asked J to stop speaking to OW, at various times over the last 10 years, he came back with the "just friends" and "nothing is going on". It is all in her thread. So... how can she be minimizing when it was *literally* 30 seconds?

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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Mclane said:


> Don't recall, but her rather lengthly post gave plenty of info. She went on and on about the horrible things, then spoke about her "brief 30 second affair" followed up by "I'm not minimizing my affair" and I felt obligated to issue a correction.


I went "on and on" because I was making a point towards what someone else posted. That sometimes marriages ARE really sh*tty long before infidelity happens. And that people can communicate ad nauseum to their spouse before they ever make the ultimate betrayal.

The reason for me briefly mentioning my ONS is that I've been here for 9 months talking about my affair. I've given every single detail, accepted my blame, found my remorse and downright driven people crazy talking about it to DEATH. I didn't feel the need to go into my story yet again when the majority of people on this forum have already been subjected to it time and time and time again.

If you'd like to know my story, it's in the private members section. It's a long read, and it'll drive you crazy. But it's there.

Maybe I minimized it in this ONE post, but you will NEVER see me not own my sh*t and/or excuse it. And I'm sure many would vouch for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> For ten years, her husband minimized his EA. So, when she talks about 30 seconds, she means that, literally. 30 seconds into a blow job that she was backed into a (figurative) corner to give, she stopped. When she asked J to stop speaking to OW, at various times over the last 10 years, he came back with the "just friends" and "nothing is going on". It is all in her thread. So... how can she be minimizing when it was *literally* 30 seconds?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


She took another guys d!ick into her mouth and she puts a time limit on it as if to say it's better in some way than finishing the guy off in 5. I guess in a way it is, but it's still minimizing.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Mclane said:


> She took another guys d!ick into her mouth and she puts a time limit on it as if to say it's better in some way than finishing the guy off in 5. I guess in a way it is, but it's still minimizing.


I have NEVER said the time limit matters. IMO, my 30 second indiscretion is as bad as a long time affair. They both hurt terribly. They're both damaging. They're both cheating. I gave the time it lasted because that's what it was. If it was 2 months I would've said two months. 

Just because I didn't post every single detail on this thread for the hundredth time does not mean I minimize my affair. I DONT. There's nothing TO minimize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Mclane said:


> She took another guys d!ick into her mouth and she puts a time limit on it as if to say it's better in some way than finishing the guy off in 5. I guess in a way it is, but it's still minimizing.


She put a time limit on it because it was a *literal* amount of time. She started to do it, then stopped right away. She isn't minimizing it. She knows *exactly* how much it affected her husband. She knows *exactly* how much it has hurt her marriage. At the same time, as I pointed out (and you didn't acknowledge), her husband had a 10 year EA, and said there was nothing going on at all for the entire time. THAT is minimizing. Saying a 10 year EA isn't *as bad*, or just saying it wasn't what it was, even while talking about being together, is minimizing. Saying something occurred for a *literal* amount of time is not minimizing.

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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Ok it wasn't minimizing!

Carry on.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I went "on and on" because I was making a point towards what someone else posted. That sometimes marriages ARE really sh*tty long before infidelity happens. And that people can communicate ad nauseum to their spouse before they ever make the ultimate betrayal.
> 
> The reason for me briefly mentioning my ONS is that I've been here for 9 months talking about my affair. I've given every single detail, accepted my blame, found my remorse and downright driven people crazy talking about it to DEATH. I didn't feel the need to go into my story yet again when the majority of people on this forum have already been subjected to it time and time and time again.
> 
> ...


In that particular post,devoted to describing your bad marriage,you confined your complaints to your husband's alleged deficiecies and only later included your own.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Lardo said:


> In that particular post,devoted to describing your bad marriage,you confined your complaints to your husband's alleged deficiecies and only later included your own.


Now you've done it.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> In that particular post,devoted to describing your bad marriage,you confined your complaints to your husband's alleged deficiecies and only later included your own.


Alleged? So, for your benefit, she must post every. single. aspect. of her marriage, both good and bad, in every. single. thread. she comments... rather than... oh, I don't know... allow other posters to use their heads and *gasp* read her threads for her story. I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp. But it's all there, including when I lashed out at her about her husband's behavior. But, yes, it's been posted on TAM, and the complaints they *both* have... have been posted... all you had to do is read. 

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Oh, I forgot to tell you "Welcome Back"


Thanks. Ban expired ,and,try as I might, I could not get help with reinstating under Maxo. Tried many times, No assistance.
Any additional cheating on your part as of late?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Lardo said:


> In that particular post,devoted to describing your bad marriage,you confined your complaints to your husband's alleged deficiecies and only later included your own.


You are correct. Because I cheated. I was outlining what *I* felt at the time led to the downfall of my marriage. And when asked what the problems my husband had with me were, I outlined them immediately without being defensive. I was open and honest about what his issues are/were. 

When someone is making a point about ONE particular thing, it is not necessary to give their entire life story in that post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Thanks. Ban expired ,and,try as I might, I could not get help with reinstating under Maxo. Tried many times, No assistance.
> Any additional cheating on your part as of late?


I am sure that either @EleGirl or @Yungster could help you get back into your regular account again. I take it you were banned before the whole password reset fiasco?

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

```

```



Maricha75 said:


> Alleged? So, for your benefit, she must post every. single. aspect. of her marriage, both good and bad, in every. single. thread. she comments... rather than... oh, I don't know... allow other posters to use their heads and *gasp* read her threads for her story. I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp. But it's all there, including when I lashed out at her about her husband's behavior. But, yes, it's been posted on TAM, and the complaints they *both* have... have been posted... all you had to do is read.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


No time to go dredge up old posts. Her current posting was sufficient and,initally,only listed her husband's alleged deficiencies. Capiche?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> I am sure that either @EleGirl or @Yungster could help you get back into your regular account again. I take it you were banned before the whole password reset fiasco?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Numerous attempts at contact with no response.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> No time to go dredge up old posts. Her current posting was sufficient and,initally,only listed her husband's alleged deficiencies. Capiche?


Oh, I understand perfectly. But if you have no time to "dredge up old posts" that would mean you also have "no time" to flame other posters. That is obviously untrue, so... ¿Comprende?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Lardo said:


> An oftcited,and fairly obvious distinction between cheating and other forms of what you term betrayal,is the clandestine nature of cheatin vs the a betrayal that is open and obvious.
> Cheating deprives the BS of informed choice and robs time. The others,while wrong,at least allow a victim the opportunity to conserve time and get out.


So you think that cheating that is clandestine is different from the b!tchy nagging spouse, or passive-aggressive behaviour, or any of the other many things people do to each other in dysfunctional relationships? Sorry, but I disagree. 

Hurting a partner is vile, whatever the form. The only person who can judge the amount of hurt is the person experiencing it. I've read threads on here from men whose wives passive-aggressively deny their hard-working husbands sex, or even good humour, for years and it's typically rolled up with lots of other negative behaviours. The H is left with a Hobsons choice to divorce and destroy his family, suffer in silence or find other outlets, or sometimes have an affair. Deliberately or in a moment of weakness.

I don't applaud the affair, but I certainly understand the reasons. The wife (or H if it's the wife who is neglected--I'm not sexist this goes both ways) is not an innocent victim in this scenario, however much she cries foul.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Oh, I understand perfectly. But if you have no time to "dredge up old posts" that would mean you also have "no time" to flame other posters. That is obviously untrue, so... ¿Comprende?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


No comprendo. Non sequitur. Entiendo?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Numerous attempts at contact with no response.


Once again, I find myself saying "odd". My password had to be reset and I was able to still log in via Tapatalk... one email to Yungster and it was done. 

Guess you were just anxious to come back to yell at WS, eh? 😁

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

@Maricha75 thank you for investing so much time and knowing the entire story!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Well what about if someone just wants to read WS stories, shouldn't there be a repository for them to make it easier to find? Perhaps we could have a standard set of questions to answer for the poster.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I think the last 4 pages of this post are exactly why there shouldn't be a WS forum. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> So you think that cheating that is clandestine is different from the b!tchy nagging spouse, or passive-aggressive behaviour, or any of the other many things people do to each other in dysfunctional relationships? Sorry, but I disagree.
> 
> Hurting a partner is vile, whatever them form. The only person who can judge the amount of hurt is the person experiencing it. I've read threads on here from men whose wives passive-aggressively deny their hard-working husbands sex, or even good humour, for years and it's typically rolled up with lots of other negative behaviours. The H is left with a Hobsons choice to divorce and destroy his family, suffer in silence or find other outlets, or sometimes have an affair. Deliberately or in a moment of weakness.
> 
> I don't applaud the affair, but I certainly understand the reasons. The wife (or H if it's the wife who is neglected) is not an innocent victim in this scenario, however much she cries foul.


Clearly the clandestine nature distinguishes it in that it deprives the recipient of informed choice. This is obvious. Hidden finacial infidelity does the same.
Yourneglect to factor in the hidden nature when analyzing and distinguishing. If my spouse is abusive or witholds affection, I am aware and can make a choice to. Itigate. Not so with cheating.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> No comprendo. Non sequitur. Entiendo?


Indeed, I do understand. It all became clear awhile ago.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Well what about if someone just wants to read WS stories, shouldn't there be a repository for them to make it easier to find? Perhaps we could have a standard set of questions to answer for the poster.


Hey aren't you off starting your own website somewhere?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

My ex husband beat the living sh*t out of me, threw me outside naked, would carry me in to our roommates bedroom and tell him to f*ck me, lock me out of the house when I was pregnant and I'd have to walk to my parents house in bare feet at 2-3am. 

Still, I stayed for 5 more years. 

Clandestine cheating me out of a good marriage. Right in my face. 

Which is worse? Cheating or beating? 

(I'm not saying my ex husband was worse than me because he beat and I cheat, I'm literally asking WHICH is worse)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Based on my own experience in picking,I disagree. Yes,I was young,but the signs were not evident. A true NPD may be difficult for the normal person to spot. They seem to be very good markers.
> *My Xw looked good,but,she also had an advanced degree,a good job and came from a good family( at least on the surface).*
> I did not marry right away and got to know the image she presented so well. Despite my youth,I dare say even older,more experienced folks would have been taken in.
> And,my self esteem was good. I had been a good student,really good athlete and was progressing nicely in my career.


You were looking for signs of status, not self-worth. Those are not necessarily indicators of good character. That was your mistake.




> Sometimes,one just gets taken in,despite having normal sophistication for one's age and decent self esteem. Your theory on this fails to consider the talent for deception of many Cluster B's and that many of us were ,merely,at a normal level of life experience for our age vs being naive.


As I already said, I do believe in the 'young and dumb' experience, I had one myself. I just believe the 'NPD' and other labels for the mentally ill or pathologically selfish are much more rare than most BS egos want to believe.

For someone who is truly NPD, there are definite signs. Especially if you waited a long time -- your own words. You were being willfully blind if you are as intelligent and self-aware as you say you are.

I'm objectively reading how you describe your situation and unwillingness to accept even *some* responsibility for your experience tells me you still have a fragile ego. Red flag. I would have tossed you back immediately in the dating pool. Still much work to do. BTW, my H was cheated on, by a similar personality to what you experienced. Completely taken in. He's an extraordinary person and approaches what happened to him very differently from you. He exemplifies personal responsibility and learned his lessons. There is another path forward besides blameshifting.



> Perhaps your navel might help you understand this (remove lint first).


Low blow because you can't handle the truth. Try to keep your ego out of this. I never cheated and was never cheated on. I had the foresight and fortitude to end a poor marriage before things ever reached that point. There is no need to attempt to insult me just because you don't like the opinions I post.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> My ex husband beat the living sh*t out of me, threw me outside naked, would carry me in to our roommates bedroom and tell him to f*ck me, lock me out of the house when I was pregnant and I'd have to walk to my parents house in bare feet at 2-3am.
> 
> Still, I stayed for 5 more years.
> 
> ...


This isn't about which is worst. Murder or rape? Cheating or beating? Years of passive aggressive treatment or withholding sex? Gambling or alcohol addiction?

They are ALL horrible examples of appalling behaviour.

Respectfully, you need a lot more counselling LH. You have a lot of issues to work through.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Which is worse? Cheating or beating?


Does the answer to that question by a random sampling of the opinions of a bunch of anonymous internet forum posters really matter?

There was a lot of dysfunction and abuse there, you've moved on, it's time to put it behind you and enjoy happier times.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> For ten years, her husband minimized his EA. So, when she talks about 30 seconds, she means that, literally. 30 seconds into a blow job that she was backed into a (figurative) corner to give, she stopped. When she asked J to stop speaking to OW, at various times over the last 10 years, he came back with the "just friends" and "nothing is going on". It is all in her thread. So... how can she be minimizing when it was *literally* 30 seconds?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Is there really anyone here who wants to argue that the pain of her physical betrayal is any more or less than his EA betrayal?

Why can't people just agree the whole relationship is just f'd up? The choices are to move forward, agreeing both did horrible things, or put a bullet in the marriage... and move forward.

Both made horrible choices. Figure out a way to not relive the past by moving forward, together or separate. That is all anyone can do.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sapientia said:


> This isn't about which is worst. Murder or rape? Cheating or beating? Years of passive aggressive treatment or withholding sex? Gambling or alcohol addiction?
> 
> They are ALL horrible examples of appalling behaviour.
> 
> Respectfully, you need a lot more counselling LH. You have a lot of issues to work through.


I don't need anyone to tell ME which is worse. I've felt them both, so I can choose.

I asked this question because the thread is leaning towards cheating being the absolute worst thing that can happen. And in many ways it is. 

I'm pointing out there are MANY ways to cheat your spouse out of a good marriage, a good life. Being beat and emotional abused is a huge one. Cheating is a huge one. 

People don't want to see that even without infidelity, you can REALLY hurt someone else. To me, my ex husband is scum of scum for laying his hands on me in the way he did. My husband - who had a 10 year EA, with a pretty big suspicion of PA, I don't view as scum. 

My point was, many people see infidelity as horrible and it is, but others may see beating your spouse as worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I agree with you.

There are some who--at least given what they post in other threads--should give you, if not a free pass at least understanding, since your marriages involved abuse 'extremes'. This comes from other threads.

I don't really believe in the 'casual, opportunistic' cheating argument except for short duration relationships. For long term ones, no way there isn't harm and responsibility on both sides, even if that means turning a blind eye. People generally reap what they sow, through action or inaction.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> My point was, many people see infidelity as horrible and it is, but others may see beating your spouse as worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Physical abuse IS worse and it is a vile disgusting betrayal - the worst kind. Because you put your spouses physical life in danger. Only a cowardly [email protected] POS would beat his wife...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Do you feel most BS are utter swine?:|


No. And you must know full well that is not what I said. So please so making stuff up.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Physical abuse IS worse and it is a vile disgusting betrayal - the worst kind. Because you put your spouses physical life in danger. Only a cowardly [email protected] POS would beat his wife...


Totally agree, Truthseeker1.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I think the last 4 pages of this post are exactly why there shouldn't be a WS forum. :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Because it would attract the tub thumpers, the single issue fanatics, the screechers and shriekers, the self-styled experts, the bullies, the know-it-alls and the physical chastisers of those quadrupeds who have already joined the choir invisible.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mclane said:


> She took another guys d!ick into her mouth and she puts a time limit on it as if to say it's better in some way than finishing the guy off in 5. I guess in a way it is, but it's still minimizing.


But then again, he threatened to abandon her in the middle of nowhere if she didn't give in.

And as her first husband threatened her and beat the s**t out of her, that kind of background can do serious damage to your self esteem and your abilities to think clearly and to react appropriately.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Absolutely. Like you, it was sad at the time and an adjustment. Now, life for me has never been better.
> 
> Now, full disclosure, there wasn't cheating involved in my divorce. Lots of other dark things, some here might throw out 'emotionally abusive', but I'm pretty agnostic about the whole thing now. There was plenty of dysfunction from each of us.
> 
> ...


Well wasn't married, my first love. So glad she cheated. I traded up.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> You were looking for signs of status, not self-worth. Those are not necessarily indicators of good character. That was your mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no blameshifting. The blame lays squarely with the cheater.
No low blow,either,merely a reference to your previous low blow re the bellybutton.
I cannot take responsibility for this experience except as a normal,trusting young man.
I mentioned my XW's status ,not because I am impressed by status,but,rather to show that there were no obvious signs that she had serial cheating within her. She demonstrated other good qualities,as well,which turned out to be fake.
With your pedantry and arrogance,it seems you are the one with the fragile ego,and were not even astute enough to recognize the reference to your own low blow re the bellybutton.
If you had the opportunity to have thrown me back into some dating pool( doubtful), I expect it would come as a relief to me.
You cannot even make the easy distinction between clandestine abuse and obvious abuse,a relatively easy task.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Lardo said:


> There is no blameshifting. The blame lays squarely with the cheater.
> No low blow,either,merely a reference to your previous low blow re the bellybutton.
> I cannot take responsibility for this experience except as a normal,trusting young man.
> I mentioned my XW's status ,not because I am impressed by status,but,rather to show that there were no obvious signs that she had serial cheating within her. She demonstrated other good qualities,as well,which turned out to be fake.
> ...


My navel comment wasn't even directed at you. Your whole rant is based on you not understanding the post.

As for the rest, sure okay, you're entitled to your opinion. No sweat off me, my ego and Id will carry on just fine.

:grin2:


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I don't need anyone to tell ME which is worse. I've felt them both, so I can choose.
> 
> I asked this question because the thread is leaning towards cheating being the absolute worst thing that can happen. And in many ways it is.
> 
> ...


Abuse is horrible. But,one knows when one is being beaten etc.vs the clandestine theft of time.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> My navel comment wasn't even directed at you. Your whole rant is based on you not understanding the post.
> 
> As for the rest, sure okay, you're entitled to your opinion. No sweat off me, my ego and Id will carry on just fine.
> 
> :grin2:


IMO, you would benefit from therapy. Lots of it( as well as reading comprehension remedial help. )


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You're right, I remember when I was cheated on I had about a month where I was desperately trying to go back to what we had. Finally the realization that it would never be the same became too much. It was a sad day, but I am so glad I moved forward. Are you?


Me,too. About a month. I resisted and am happy to be out.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> I'm sorry, but no. Anything that occurred before any cheating *is* the responsibility of BOTH parties. And, again, think back to how many times, if any, the WS DID voice concern over the state of the marriage. If they choose to reconcile, the WS has to say, "Ok, I am owning my actions. I am taking full responsibility for all I did prior to the affair, as well as the affair, itself." The BS is NOT absolved of ALL fault. NO HE/SHE IS NOT AT FAULT FOR THE *AFFAIR *. But, the BS responds, again if reconciling, "I also own my own actions prior to the affair. And we BOTH need to put forth the effort to reconnect and STAY connected, from this point on." The WS is, in NO WAY, absolved of his or her actions, and BOTH make a commitment to ensure there is no disconnect.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if it is just "that simple" that the WS is the horrible monster that too many seem to think, then it is just as "that simple" that both spouses are responsible for PRE-AFFAIR marital issues.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I disagree. This analysis fails to consider that one party may be contributing more to the problems. Not a hard concept,IMO.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> TAM is a placto ofe for lost persons, either B or W, to seek help and advice. If you are not going to support the OP, and by support I mean offer help (even in the form of a 2x4), then don't post on the thread. TAM is not the right venue for anyone to deal with the anger they have with their ex spouse by attacking a W OP telling their story. If you have anger, get therapy to deal with it.
> 
> A separate WS forum would be a magnet for every angry person here to come and attack the WS. As it is now some waywards do start a thread but the angry people need to find them. With a separate forum the same angry people will post the same message in every thread. We already have enough people doing that now. Different thread, same post.


HUH? The forum is only for lost persons? Where did you come up with that? Is it in the guidelines?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Or, they look back and see that they really were the @$$ that the WS said, but they were too self-absorbed to see it back then.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Is that what you did?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Wow, so much passive-aggressive and anger in this thread. I agree with you @blueinbr, a WS forum section would bring out the angries and crazies. Just look at this thread as an example. Seems the point has been made.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Physical abuse IS worse and it is a vile disgusting betrayal - the worst kind. Because you put your spouses physical life in danger. Only a cowardly [email protected] POS would beat his wife...


STD's can put your life in danger as well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Wow, so much passive-aggressive and anger in this thread. I agree with you @blueinbr, a WS forum section would bring out the angries and crazies. Just look at this thread as an example. Seems the point has been made.


I agree, if WS want to get sympathy and not hear the reality of what they have done they should go to Loveshack. There are plenty of like minded adults who will blame-shift with you an not accept responsibility. No need to have that here.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Wow, so much passive-aggressive and anger in this thread. I agree with you @blueinbr, a WS forum section would bring out the angries and crazies. Just look at this thread as an example. Seems the point has been made.


Don't be so hard on yourself. Sure, your take is a little warped, but not all that crazy. Just a little ego fed.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Is that what you did?


Why do you ask? Are you trying to figure me out? Lol good luck with that.

My response was only to point out that some look back and see that they were right all along and some look back and see that their spouses were right about how bad things were. It can go either way.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> I disagree. This analysis fails to consider that one party may be contributing more to the problems. Not a hard concept,IMO.


Actually, it doesn't. If they go over everything from before the affair, then they could see what was truly a problem in the marriage, unrelated to the affair, and separate it FROM the affair. The point is that an affair does NOT absolve the BS from any wrongdoing pre-affair. Does that mean the fault is equal? Not at all. Of course one could be more at fault that the other, even for the problems before an affair. But ALL problems do not rest solely on the shoulders of the WS, ONLY by reason of his or her affair.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Oh this thread is a mess. It's funny though, the angries and the crazies are on both sides while they joke, laugh and point at each other. Go post in the reconciliation thread. The Divorce crowd tends to stay out of that thread and you can get your story out to the masses.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh this thread is a mess. It's funny though,* the angries and the crazies* are on both sides while they joke, laugh and point at each other. Go post in the reconciliation thread. The Divorce crowd tends to stay out of that thread and you can get your story out to the masses.


and the excuse makers lol 

Ok guys time to come together..

Angries, crazies, excuse makers this is for you


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, it doesn't. If they go over everything from before the affair, then they could see what was truly a problem in the marriage, unrelated to the affair, and separate it FROM the affair. The point is that an affair does NOT absolve the BS from any wrongdoing pre-affair. Does that mean the fault is equal? Not at all. Of course one could be more at fault that the other, even for the problems before an affair. But ALL problems do not rest solely on the shoulders of the WS, ONLY by reason of his or her affair.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I agree. Fault could lay with both. I thought you meant that it was always equally split.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, it doesn't. If they go over everything from before the affair, then they could see what was truly a problem in the marriage, unrelated to the affair, and separate it FROM the affair. The point is that an affair does NOT absolve the BS from any wrongdoing pre-affair. Does that mean the fault is equal? Not at all. Of course one could be more at fault that the other, even for the problems before an affair. But ALL problems do not rest solely on the shoulders of the WS, ONLY by reason of his or her affair.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Theoretically, all problems could be caused by one or the other.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Maricha75 said:


> Lardo said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree. This analysis fails to consider that one party may be contributing more to the problems. Not a hard concept,IMO.
> ...


So true! At one time I was very uncaring and treated my W as if she was beneath me. We argued about my chosen career because it meant I would have to be gone for long periods of time, and she could not handle that, but I didn?t care. I told her to do whatever she needed to do while I was gone.
So I definitely contributed to the problems and help set the conditions that led to infidelity. I bear some blame, and she bears some blame.
Affairs are almost always reactions to some underlying long-term problems within a relationship. So that's why I believe a WS Stories section could be beneficial, as long as the underlying problems leading up to the affair are identified and properly addressed if R is considered.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> So true! At one time I was very uncaring and treated my W as if she was beneath me. We argued about my chosen career because it meant I would have to be gone for long periods of time, and she could not handle that, but I didn?t care. I told her to do whatever she needed to do while I was gone.
> So I definitely contributed to the problems and help set the conditions that led to infidelity. I bear some blame, and she bears some blame.
> Affairs are almost always reactions to some underlying long-term problems within a relationship. So that's why I believe a WS Stories section could be beneficial, as long as the underlying problems leading up to the affair are identified and properly addressed if R is considered.


I recall reading quite a few stories where the WS indicates the marriage was pretty good ad the BS a good person and spouse. I do not think that many BSs treated their marriages and spouse as you did yours. The BSs I know, personally, were home, warm, giving etc. Not perfect, but our vows did not contemplate perfection as a pre-requisite to abiding by them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, it doesn't. If they go over everything from before the affair, then they could see what was truly a problem in the marriage, unrelated to the affair, and separate it FROM the affair. The point is that an affair does NOT absolve the BS from any wrongdoing pre-affair. Does that mean the fault is equal? Not at all. Of course one could be more at fault that the other, even for the problems before an affair. But ALL problems do not rest solely on the shoulders of the WS, ONLY by reason of his or her affair.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


For US, one of the best things we ever did for our marriage was let go of fault and blame and embrace listening to and accepting feelings where they could be. That is not to say I did not call BS on some of his fog thinking and history rewriting. Marriage was not in an ideal state. The goal was to put it back into an ideal state. What do we need to do to make remedy and amends? What can we work on to make things better... 

That does not mean that I did not share exactly how he hurt me. But the whole blame game was a waste of time. yah well you did this. yah well you did that. It was not productive.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I agree, if WS want to get sympathy and not hear the reality of what they have done they should go to Loveshack. There are plenty of like minded adults who will blame-shift with you an not accept responsibility. No need to have that here.


Why are the two mutually exclusive? 

When my children were young, my son would pick on my daughter relentlessly. One day she bit him, hard. We sympathized with her situation and held her responsible for her reaction. Both were perfectly valid. We also made it clear how the "victim" played an important role in getting tooth marks in his arm. 

Binary thinking is inadequate to the task of interpersonal relationships.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Theoretically, all problems could be caused by one or the other.


Absolutely true! It *could* be that way. But, at least you acknowledged that it could be BOTH who played a significant part in the marital breakdown. 😉



Lardo said:


> I agree. Fault could lay with both. I thought you meant that it was always equally split.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

jld said:


> The ones here fight it terribly. They cannot bear to take that level of responsibility.
> 
> And that is really too bad, especially in the case of WWs. The one main example of a reconciliation where the man did take responsibility, and asked his wife to tell him all the ways he hurt her, ended well. I wish more men could do this.


Many men do. They just don't come to TAM to advertise it.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Many men on TAM take responsibility, in many a thread, it is just those with agendas do not WANT to see it. Just like many men who do not see the sincerity in some reconciliations. Quite a few people use BINARY thinking on this website, on both sides, just like Cletus stated. Like the guy who accepted full responsibility, I'd argue way more than necessary and some people allegedly helping him stormed off because he wasn't following their advice. No, I am not including those with a differing viewpoint who leave. I'm talking about people who announce they are leaving and then put down the Wayward or the Betrayed because the person allegedly didn't listen.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> When was the last time in the US that a person died from an STD? Compare that to the last time a woman died from domestic abuse.


~7000 AIDS related deaths a year - most from drug use, but certainly a non-zero number from sexual transmission. HPV causes cancers of the cervix and throat to the estimated tune of ~6000 persons a year. There's even 1 or 2 deaths a month from syphilis. 

So, yeah.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> When was the last time in the US that a person died from an STD? Compare that to the last time a woman died from domestic abuse.


Well, seeing as you asked...
Deaths from Sexually Transmitted Diseases - RightDiagnosis.com
Mortality from sexually transmitted diseases in reproductive-aged women: United States, 1999-2010. - PubMed - NCBI
Deaths due to Sexually Transmitted Diseases:**The Forgotten Component of Reproductive Mortality | Apr 04, 1986 | JAMA | JAMA Network


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Affairs are almost always reactions to some underlying long-term problems within a relationship.


Almost away? laughable. Many of the problems are because the person who has the affair is selfish and entitled. 

Look if you want to take responsibility for your wife cheating on you so be it. Don't project that on other BS so you can feel better about your wife though, that is plain week. Shame on you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, it doesn't. If they go over everything from before the affair, then they could see what was truly a problem in the marriage, unrelated to the affair, and separate it FROM the affair. The point is that an affair does NOT absolve the BS from any wrongdoing pre-affair. Does that mean the fault is equal? Not at all. Of course one could be more at fault that the other, even for the problems before an affair. But ALL problems do not rest solely on the shoulders of the WS, ONLY by reason of his or her affair.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Problems in the marriage are not an excuse to cheat period.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> For US, one of the best things we ever did for our marriage was let go of fault and blame and embrace listening to and accepting feelings where they could be. That is not to say I did not call BS on some of his fog thinking and history rewriting. Marriage was not in an ideal state. The goal was to put it back into an ideal state. What do we need to do to make remedy and amends? What can we work on to make things better...
> 
> That does not mean that I did not share exactly how he hurt me. But the whole blame game was a waste of time. yah well you did this. yah well you did that. It was not productive.


Well you kind of have to do that if you are going to stay with a cheater. What you call fault and blame I call responsibility.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Why are the two mutually exclusive?
> 
> When my children were young, my son would pick on my daughter relentlessly. One day she bit him, hard. We sympathized with her situation and held her responsible for her reaction. Both were perfectly valid. We also made it clear how the "victim" played an important role in getting tooth marks in his arm.
> 
> Binary thinking is inadequate to the task of interpersonal relationships.


You should have stopped your son from picking on her.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Problems in the marriage are not an excuse to cheat period.


Never said they were.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> You should have stopped your son from picking on her.


If you have kids, then you know very well that you can stop them and they go back to picking on each other. Hence, his use of the word "relentlessly". Happens with my kids often. I stop them, they do it again. Time out doesn't work. Spanking doesn't work. Grounding doesn't work. Taking away their things doesn't work. Assigning extra chores doesn't work. Sorry, but just saying "You should have stopped him" is ridiculous. WTF do you expect him to do? Beat the child? Good grief.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Excuse? No. A contributing factor? Yes.


So why is that everyone in the same kinds of situations don't cheat?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> If you have kids, then you know very well that you can stop them and they go back to picking on each other. Hence, his use of the word "relentlessly". Happens with my kids often. I stop them, they do it again. Time out doesn't work. Spanking doesn't work. Grounding doesn't work. Taking away their things doesn't work. Assigning extra chores doesn't work. Sorry, but just saying "You should have stopped him" is ridiculous. WTF do you expect him to do? Beat the child? Good grief.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Don't agree my sisters and I were not allowed to behave that way. We were punished if we did. Guess what, we stopped. Consequences. I suspect you didn't hold true to the punishment, but then again if you didn't stop it when they are very young then it's too late after a point. Grounding didn't work for you.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> So why is that everyone in the same kinds of situations don't cheat?


This sh!t goes around in circles..fact of the matter is the BS was in the same marriage as th WS and is often unhappy as well but didn't fvcking cheat..it goes straight to character - 

Infidelity more often than not occurs in marriages that fall in the "normal" range of issues not the extremes - the cheater cheats because that is how they cope, get their fix, whatever

when I see the blameshifting that goes on it makes my fvcking blood pressure rise..

if some BS wants to foolishly accept part of the blame for their spouses choice to fvck someone else then that is their problem...

like Ive written numerous times cheating because of martial discord is like using nuclear weapons to settle a trade dispute...

Dont even get me started on LTAs...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Actually he is very right, mostly because his statement is broad. Read any book on how affairs happen.
> 
> Just because you dont want to believe it, or cant accept it, doesnt mean its not true.


One thing you who think "it's all gray" don't get is that people who believe in right wrong don't care why. That is not the point. There is no why good enough to justify cheating so any why means nothing. It's enough to know that even if your marriage sucks someone has had it worse and they didn't choose to destroy their partner for selfish reasons. No one is forced to cheat and because of that I have no problem thinking of cheaters as selfish, entitled, just plain bad people at least at the time of there cheating. 

All of your justifications just sound like excuses to me. I am really not surprised that someone who has a list of excuses is also a cheater though, it goes right into that whole entitlement mentality. They go hand in hand. I am not getting x so I can do y. Um no you made a commitment and it didn't say if you were not getting x you could do y. If you want to break you commitment then leave, then you can do y. 

I am really not surprised that WS think this way. I am also not surprised when people resort to the old tired excuse of right and wrong is really gray. Of course they do because these people are the type who could do unimaginable harm to the same people they profess they love. Thinking like that is what got them there in the first place. 

This kind of thinking is a big red flag and I would advise anyone, if you meet a person who has a justification for cheating don't have a relationship with them. They will have justifications to cheat on you if things don't live up to what they think they deserve, no matter if this perception is wrong or right. Stay far away from people who think like this. You will be much safer with someone who thinks cheating is wrong no matter what the circumstance. You know why because they probably won't cheat.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> The situations may be similar, but NEVER the same. A two lifetimes of variables factor into the equation.
> 
> Consider two similar couples. In each the wife is emotionally abusive to the husband.
> 
> ...


We are a product of our actions. Genetics and environment are a factor but all one has to do is look out there window and see they are a very small factor. If that was the case why is it that you have twins where on is a killer and one isn't? Same genetics, same environment. Personal responsibility. You are only and completely responsible for you actions. 

In your example it is a much better decision to marry the guy who vowed not to cheat. Husband B's thinking is flawed and lead to his cheating, who cares what his reasons were. For the person who was cheated on, whatever his reasons are make no difference. So the big picture is if you get a sense that the person you are dating thinks like person b run for the hills. 

There is no factor that would cause me to cheat on my wife. I would rather die. I would gladly die. People who believe in right and wrong is black and white as you call it, and who believe in honor, think like me and don't cheat or if they do they at least know they are doing wrong. This makes us safer. My honor means more to me then my life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This sh!t goes around in circles..fact of the matter is the BS was in the same marriage as th WS and is often unhappy as well but didn't fvcking cheat..it goes straight to character -
> 
> Infidelity more often than not occurs in marriages that fall in the "normal" range of issues not the extremes - the cheater cheats because that is how they cope, get their fix, whatever
> 
> ...


Yeah but the truth hurts their feelings. :crying: Think of the children!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> We are a product of our actions. Genetics and environment are a factor but all one has to do is look out there window and see they are a very small factor. If that was the case why is it that you have twins where on is a killer and one isn't? Same genetics, same environment. Personal responsibility. You are only and completely responsible for you actions.
> 
> In your example it is a much better decision to marry the guy who vowed not to cheat. Husband B's thinking is flawed and lead to his cheating, who cares what his reasons were. For the person who was cheated on, whatever his reasons are make no difference. So the big picture is if you get a sense that the person you are dating thinks like person b run for the hills.
> 
> There is no factor that would cause me to cheat on my wife. I would rather die. I would gladly die. People who believe in right and wrong is black and white as you call it, and who believe in honor, think like me and don't cheat or if they do they at least know they are doing wrong. This makes us safer. My honor means more to me then my life.




I bet a majority of cheaters thought or said they would never cheat, until they cheated.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I bet a majority of cheaters thought or said they would never cheat, until they cheated.


Well if they thought right an wrong were conditional on whither or not they were happy then they fooled themselves.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Well if they thought right an wrong were conditional on whither or not they were happy then they fooled themselves.




If you have not experienced something then you can never fully understand it. 

Try explaining colors to a person blind from birth. 

You will never fully understand. You might think you do, but you don't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> You might not think that but that is what you post.
> 
> Repeatedly.
> 
> Over and over and over.


That is your _interpretation_ of what I post.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Don't agree my sisters and I were not allowed to behave that way. We were punished if we did. Guess what, we stopped. Consequences. I suspect you didn't hold true to the punishment, but then again if you didn't stop it when they are very young then it's too late after a point. Grounding didn't work for you.


I'm starting to get a picture of the kind of person with whom I'm arguing now. Thanks, but I think I'll stop wasting my time. If in the future I'm in need of the One Correct Way to do Everything, I'll give you a ping.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Don't agree my sisters and I were not allowed to behave that way. We were punished if we did. Guess what, we stopped. Consequences. I suspect you didn't hold true to the punishment, but then again if you didn't stop it when they are very young then it's too late after a point. Grounding didn't work for you.


Didn't hold true to the punishment? Wrong again. I love how you presume to know what happens in my home, with my children lol. We held to the punishments. We still do hold to punishments. They still go back to picking on each other. Not immediately after punishment ends, but it still happens. You know what's funny about that? My sisters and I did the same thing. The only one who didn't get punished properly was the youngest. Wouldn't you know, she's the one with the most problems. So, what's my point? Some children will go back to/continue picking at each other, no matter the punishment... even when the parents DO stick to the consequences. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lardo said:


> Maricha75 said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure that either @EleGirl or @Yungster could help you get back into your regular account again. I take it you were banned before the whole password reset fiasco?
> ...


I never got a PM from you on the topic. 

Many users no longer had access to the email accounts that they used to create their original account. So they could not get the password reset email.

At the time of the universal password reset, the email server and admins were overwhelmed so a lot of requests for help fell through the cracks. 

That has been remedied now. I sent you a PM asking you to send a PM to Yungster to get your accounts merged. Please take care of this.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You know what I always find funny about these threads? The immediate taking of sides. People rarely ever see the equity in both sides. Go back through and watch how many people post "TAM is evil to way wards" and how few of those posters acknowledge that it is just as bad for a BS. It's sad because I guess being called a liar, weak, beta, worthless, man up, pull up your panties, you deserve what you got, and on and on and on somehow isn't vile. Unless, of course, you use those words on a way ward.

It's funny to me because for every vile attack on a wayward, I can find a similar thread with vile attacks on the betrayed. Yes, I am one of those research OCD @$$hats. I initially drank a cup of the Divorce first attack way wards mantra kool-aide people were pushing. In actuality the sides are pretty balanced if you read more than the highly traffic 1500 posts threads. Or, like many do on both sides, read the first few pages and lose your mind.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



blueinbr said:


> I bet a majority of cheaters thought or said they would never cheat, until they cheated.


 Most have been dishonest throughout their lives.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



Lardo said:


> Most have been dishonest throughout their lives.


I can't say I agree with this. Its far too black and white. Just because a person is a cheater it doesn't mean that they are of poor character in other areas. I know that isn't the popular sentiment here. I am a wayward, yet I still consider myself a good father, and an ethical businessman. Never cheated or lied in any other area of life. Seriously.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

So after 21 pages of posts, what I summarize is that the majority are opposed to a WS Stories section, with a few posters that would be open to it. I suggested a standard set of questions to answer, so that it stayed within the framework of addressing the underlying issues within the relationship, and identifying what was occurring before infidelity arrived. I didn't want to create a forum for the WS to brag about their conquests.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> So after 21 pages of posts, what I summarize is that the majority are opposed to a WS Stories section, with a few posters that would be open to it. I suggested a standard set of questions to answer, so that it stayed within the framework of addressing the underlying issues within the relationship, and identifying what was occurring before infidelity arrived. I didn't want to create a forum for the WS to brag about their conquests.


Unfortunately, that is how many would view it, regardless. No matter how matter-of-factly it is stated, some will, invariably, say the WS is minimizing... as was evident in the posts to LH in this thread. The WS could say "this was going wrong in a,b,c way and I, stupidly, had sex with a guy I met at a coffee shop. I shouldn't have done it, and I am willing to do what it takes to repair the damage done, if it can be fixed." And there will be responses calling that WS scum, among other things... Bottom line, some only want to make them feel lower, unworthy of any compassion on ANY measure... because they cheated. To some, infidelity is the end of the world. To others, it is not. And, no matter what, there will be attacks, even if the WS comes in and shows he or she is remorseful. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



ReformedHubby said:


> I can't say I agree with this. Its far too black and white. Just because a person is a cheater it doesn't mean that they are of poor character in other areas. I know that isn't the popular sentiment here. I am a wayward, yet I still consider myself a good father, and an ethical businessman. Never cheated or lied in any other area of life. Seriously.


Unfortunately, there are some who will never be convinced of this fact. They cannot reconcile that one can be fully there in other aspects of their lives, while engaging in extramarital activities.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> If you have not experienced something then you can never fully understand it.
> 
> Try explaining colors to a person blind from birth.
> 
> You will never fully understand. You might think you do, but you don't.


Everyone has terrible times in their life. Some people choose to do wrong some people choose to do right.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



ReformedHubby said:


> I can't say I agree with this. Its far too black and white. Just because a person is a cheater it doesn't mean that they are of poor character in other areas. I know that isn't the popular sentiment here. I am a wayward, yet I still consider myself a good father, and an ethical businessman. Never cheated or lied in any other area of life. Seriously.


Well maybe you have never been tempted in these areas yet. I wonder if you were going to loose your business and you had to brake the law to save it would you do it?

Also when you cheated on your wife by the very definition you were not being a good father. You choose to be selfish over your wife and families safety. When you wife found out and struggled every day with her emotions assuming she was tending to your kids needs you actions pooled emotional resources from them. While you were fighting or even just cold to each other you were setting examples that will follow them through all their relationships. 

There is a guy on SI who posts, about how his mother cheated on his father. She was discovered when his older brother found her journals talking about the other man. The parents struggled for many years. I believe 2 years after he found the journals his older brother committed suicide. Now this guy doesn't hold his mother directly responsible for his brothers death but he does say his parents were so busy trying to repair their relationship that no one noticed how badly his brother was struggling. I agree. She is in some ways indirectly responsible. 

Your post is a classic example of a WS's thinking you think because you actions don't directly effect people in your life they don't indirectly effect them in very serious ways. It is this lack of self awareness that you always find in WS, I also probably how you are able to do it. Personally I think WS are willfully obtuse. 

To me character is a some of all your choices. You can have beautiful car, looks great drives great but it doesn't have any breaks. Without breaks, all the other stuff doesn't make it a good car. You may have good character now but you didn't when you were cheating. The only people who qualify having character in other areas, are people without character.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



Maricha75 said:


> Unfortunately, there are some who will never be convinced of this fact. They cannot reconcile that one can be fully there in other aspects of their lives, while engaging in extramarital activities.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


See my example above.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Is that a majority of the posters or a majority of the posts? Some people posted many many times in this thread against your suggestion. Just because more BSs posted in this thread does not mean your idea is not valid.
> 
> The hard part would be to convince admin that a separate forum is either needed or wise. And although I agree with it, I cannot come up with a suitable proposal to convince them, other than I like the idea.
> 
> Not one WS in this thread said anything about bragging. If that argument was used it was because a BS did not want a separate forum under any conditions.


There is a great place for that it's called SurvivingInfidelity.com


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> It must be nice to be perfect and never make mistakes or terrible mistakes.


I've made them, but I don't make excuses for them.

By the way this is the type of thing a teenager says.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



sokillme said:


> See my example above.


I read your example. An example. Not THE example. It isn't "one size fits all". Some are able to do very well at work, without it suffering in any way. Some are able to do well with the kids... again, no different from before, at all. The only part that *did* break down was the relationship with the spouse. I know, it's hard to believe, but it does happen. You can't throw it all into a neat little box. It doesn't work that way.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



Maricha75 said:


> I read your example. An example. Not THE example. It isn't "one size fits all". Some are able to do very well at work, without it suffering in any way. Some are able to do well with the kids... again, no different from before, at all. The only part that *did* break down was the relationship with the spouse. I know, it's hard to believe, but it does happen. You can't throw it all into a neat little box. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Again it's not the point, it is the possibility of what it could do. If you drive drunk and don't get caught and don't kill anyone you still drove drunk. You can't then look at yourself like a person who didn't do something wrong. Cheating hurts every member of the family whether you know it or not.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



sokillme said:


> Again it's not the point, it is the possibility of what it could do. If you drive drunk and don't get caught and don't kill anyone you still drove drunk. You can't then look at yourself like a person who didn't do something wrong.


Again, not what is being stated. You are reading what you think is being said. Not one person in this thread has even implied that a WS has done nothing wrong. A drunk driver is wrong for driving drunk, whether caught or not. However, as with any other person, a drunk driver isn't defined by *only* that one part of his or her life. Infidelity is not *THE* defining factor of any one person's life, no matter how much you or anyone else would wish it to be so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> So after 21 pages of posts, what I summarize is that the majority are opposed to a WS Stories section, with a few posters that would be open to it. I suggested a standard set of questions to answer, so that it stayed within the framework of addressing the underlying issues within the relationship, and identifying what was occurring before infidelity arrived. I didn't want to create a forum for the WS to brag about their conquests.


I hope you don't think I am bragging. One of the main reasons I am against what you are proposing is because it would probably trigger people in a bad way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope you don't think I am bragging. One of the main reasons I am against what you are proposing is because it would probably trigger people in a bad way.


We are all responsible for our own triggers, no?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope you don't think I am bragging. One of the main reasons I am against what you are proposing is because it would probably trigger people in a bad way.


RH, he doesn't. It was just a general observation based on the majority of posts... not you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> We are all responsible for our own triggers, no?


Of course we are. I agree...but...on this forum there appear to be many reliving their pain over and over and over again. I just think a wayward forum would add more to that. But, you're right it is their choice to do so.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Unfortunately, that is how many would view it, regardless. No matter how matter-of-factly it is stated, some will, invariably, say the WS is minimizing... as was evident in the posts to LH in this thread. The WS could say "this was going wrong in a,b,c way and I, stupidly, had sex with a guy I met at a coffee shop. I shouldn't have done it, and I am willing to do what it takes to repair the damage done, if it can be fixed." And there will be responses calling that WS scum, among other things... Bottom line, some only want to make them feel lower, unworthy of any compassion on ANY measure... because they cheated. To some, infidelity is the end of the world. To others, it is not. And, no matter what, there will be attacks, even if the WS comes in and shows he or she is remorseful.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Funny,I saw no one call anyone scum.

I think you would find,vs bragging about conquesrs,a lot of cheaters rationalizing and blaming the BS.
It it rare to find a WS story that does not mention the BS alleged deficiencies( they rarely mention their own).
I wonder why they include info about the BS or stator of the marriage if they take full responsibility for cheating. Seems extraneous. Why not include recipes or book summaries etc.if they really believe they are solely responsible for the cheating. Those would seem just as relevant.
Irarely,if ever,see a WS start off with something like:" I lack integrity and empathy and am much more selfish than the average person. What can I do to change these character flaws?"
Rather,we get a litany about the BS's deficiencies.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



Maricha75 said:


> I read your example. An example. Not THE example. It isn't "one size fits all". Some are able to do very well at work, without it suffering in any way. Some are able to do well with the kids... again, no different from before, at all. The only part that *did* break down was the relationship with the spouse. I know, it's hard to believe, but it does happen. You can't throw it all into a neat little box. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk[/QUOTYOU HURT AND ABUSE YOUR SPOUSE,THE KIDS SUFFER.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



blueinbr said:


> What is the point? You joined TAM in June and already have more than 700 posts?
> 
> All sarcasm aside, and this is an honest question, why are you at TAM?
> 
> You have one thread and its about Father's day. Your posting at a rate of near 18 a day, that exceeds even jld.


What type of semi ad hominem attack is this? Are you the arbitrator of what the correct number of posts is? What business is it of yours?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*


```
Infidelity has far reaching,damaging effects on innocent people. Someone willing to HURT others like this is defined by that willingness to a large extent.
```



Maricha75 said:


> Again, not what is being stated. You are reading what you think is being said. Not one person in this thread has even implied that a WS has done nothing wrong. A drunk driver is wrong for driving drunk, whether caught or not. However, as with any other person, a drunk driver isn't defined by *only* that one part of his or her life. Infidelity is not *THE* defining factor of any one person's life, no matter how much you or anyone else would wish it to be so.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Gawd, this has gotten as bad as one of Rookie's threads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie's are really nuts.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

@MAJDEATH, now do you understand? It doesn't matter what a WS says. If they don't include how horribly wretched a person they are, as opposed to the horribly wretched *behavior*, it will never be enough. 
@Lardo/@Maxo (hopefully you get that resolved, soon, per the PM and post from @EleGirl), as you enumerated the threads where WS have listed the BS shortcomings, I have seen just as many BS posting about how they never did anything wrong, and, yes, I have, indeed, seen posts all over referring to WS as scum, among other vile descriptive names. 

A board specifically for WS would not work for those reasons... And is, iirc, why it has been short down everytime it has been brought up.

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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope you don't think I am bragging. One of the main reasons I am against what you are proposing is because it would probably trigger people in a bad way.


Well, yes, but no.

You see, that would be like making the use of electric fences illegal in case people ignored the "Danger! Electric Fence!" notices and urinate on the electric fence.

Don't want to trigger? Don't visit the WS story sub-forum!

Don't want to get amps in your pants? Use the proper facilities!

It really isn't that hard, surely? :scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lardo said:


> *Funny,I saw no one call anyone scum.*
> 
> I think you would find,vs bragging about conquesrs,a lot of cheaters rationalizing and blaming the BS.
> It it rare to find a WS story that does not mention the BS alleged deficiencies( they rarely mention their own).
> ...


That could be because people who used that kind of language had their posts pulled and risked getting a perma ban.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> @MAJDEATH, now do you understand? It doesn't matter what a WS says. If they don't include how horribly wretched a person they are, as opposed to the horribly wretched *behavior*, it will never be enough.
> @Lardo/@Maxo (hopefully you get that resolved, soon, per the PM and post from @EleGirl), as you enumerated the threads where WS have listed the BS shortcomings, I have seen just as many BS posting about how they never did anything wrong, and, yes, I have, indeed, seen posts all over referring to WS as scum, among other vile descriptive names.
> 
> A board specifically for WS would not work for those reasons... And is, iirc, why it has been short down everytime it has been brought up.
> ...


We are working on it,marimba.

I,rarely,see a BS claim perfection. In fact,I see more where they take too much blame.
No one need be perfect to be entitled to one's spouse keeping his or her promise.
What type of person do you think breaks a sacred vow? Agood,honest,empathetic person?
We are not talking about overspending or forgetting an anniversary or the like. We are talking STD exposure,paternity doubts, gaslighting,picking fights,risking a spouse's mental health,career. Humiliating the spouse to the community,family and friends. Having the spouse question his or her entire marital history. Questioning sexual adequacy and attractiveness.
Who does this to another?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Auto correct did that to your name,Maricha.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Auto correct did that to your name,Maricha.


Gosh. I didn't realise the edit facility wasn't working.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> Auto correct did that to your name,Maricha.


Oh, don't worry. My phone does that ALL the time! :rofl:

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



blueinbr said:


> He's a big boy. He can answer for himself and not answer. I was honestly curious as to why he is here so that I can better understand him and his position. I might learn something. Is that not why we are all here?
> 
> I told him why I was here. And if he asks I will gladly tell him why I post at a rate of 13+/day, which is very high.
> 
> ...


13 is semi high.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Gosh. I didn't realise the edit facility wasn't working.


You didn't?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lardo said:


> You didn't?


Everything on the site is working perfectly normally.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> You didn't?


Lol he's teasing. 😉

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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Lardo said:


> We are working on it,marimba.
> 
> I,rarely,see a BS claim perfection. In fact,I see more where they take too much blame.
> No one need be perfect to be entitled to one's spouse keeping his or her promise.
> ...


So, my question to you is... what of the ones who DON'T risk STD exposure? What of the ones who DON'T have any paternity doubts? What of those who DON'T have physical contact, at all, with the AP? I guess what I am asking is... at what point is a WS NOT responsible for the entire breakdown of the marriage?

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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope you don't think I am bragging. One of the main reasons I am against what you are proposing is because it would probably trigger people in a bad way.


Then what better way to avoid possible triggering by staying away from such a forum instead of randomly bumping into the same topics here? 

With all respect due, someone else's trigger is not my problem.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



Maricha75 said:


> Again, not what is being stated. You are reading what you think is being said. Not one person in this thread has even implied that a WS has done nothing wrong. A drunk driver is wrong for driving drunk, whether caught or not. However, as with any other person, a drunk driver isn't defined by *only* that one part of his or her life. Infidelity is not *THE* defining factor of any one person's life, no matter how much you or anyone else would wish it to be so.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Ah but infidelity will always be a defining moment for a marriage. Ask any BS and 99% of them will say it is so. It's why you are posting on here.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



blueinbr said:


> I have learned here from many, especially @phillybeffandswiss, not to debate this issue with a BS. I have already gone too far and with that I must withdraw.


Nope, don't drag me into your morass of guilt. If this is what you learned from me, then you have even further to go than I thought. We both know tagging someone means you want their response. 

Funny thing is, I am holding both sides accountable for bad actions, once again you have resorted to blaming the Betrayed.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: Admins, can we start a WS Stories forumi bet the majority of cheaters haveection?*



blueinbr said:


> What is the point? You joined TAM in June and already have more than 700 posts?
> 
> All sarcasm aside, and this is an honest question, why are you at TAM?
> 
> You have one thread and its about Father's day. Your posting at a rate of near 18 a day, that exceeds even jld.


I post cause I feel like it. Why do you care why I post. Most of my posts are liked so I must not be so bad. I post because I feel sympathy for the people who are suffering at the abuse of WS. I post because for the most part I have a very good marriage, that my black and white thinking helped me to have by the way, and I want to share some of that. I post to call out selfish behavior which is justify by people who think the world revolves around whether their entitlement is being met. You don't have to like my opinions I really don't care. I post because I don't like bullies and WS by their very nature are some of the worst bullies around. 

I post because I see so many people willing to stay in bad marriages because of fear, and it makes me angry because WS use that fear to continue to abuse people. I originally just starting reading here and SI because it was interesting and I identified with some of it as I was cheated on long ago, and also some advice is very good. But then honestly I started to get mad. These poor people's lives are awful and yet they stay for years. Only a few on these boards ever takes the opinion that is better to get out. Even if they do they always couch it. I don't want to say get out but. Bullsh*t your marriage is like a burning house Get Out! No matter what age you can still have a way more fulfilling life. Someone needs to say it. Read some of my posts I make no bones about how I feel, and I will keep saying it until I don't feel like saying it. So if you don't like it hit the ignore button. 

Telling someone to stay in a abusive relationship is morally wrong. The only morally right thing to do is to tell them to get out. Same goes with the excuses that WS like to make. I don't agree with them, but I am just some guy on the internet why does it bother you that I don't?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lardo said:


> We are working on it,marimba.
> 
> I,rarely,see a BS claim perfection. In fact,I see more where they take too much blame.
> No one need be perfect to be entitled to one's spouse keeping his or her promise.
> ...


I see it the same.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> So, my question to you is... what of the ones who DON'T risk STD exposure? What of the ones who DON'T have any paternity doubts? What of those who DON'T have physical contact, at all, with the AP? I guess what I am asking is... at what point is a WS NOT responsible for the entire breakdown of the marriage?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


My point about the drunk driving relates to this point which you don't get. You have no way to know that when you enter into an affair, you take the risks when you do that. It has to do with action not consequence. The mental aspect is all there and it is enough, and lots of times EA lead to PA's. 

OK now don't answer my post just yell at me again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> You know the answer. He does not care whether it is an EA or a PA, PIV or no PIV, one night or 10 years. They are all the same, all bad, and all done by defective people. To admit anything else collapses his whole argument.
> 
> If you steal a pack of gum from a store, or steal all the money from an orphanage, you are a thief. You will always steal. You have no character or morals and you are all the same. And you dont get a separate stealers forum in TAM.



By mentioning stealing a pack of gum you are minimizing how much damage affairs do. Having an affair is nothing like stealing a pack of gum. Lets be real here. What you are doing is kind of like this .

Even the WS on SI don't agree with your opinions here. Go read there they always call out other WS who try to use bad marriages to excuse their actions.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> My point about the drunk driving relates to this point which you don't get. You have no way to know that when you enter into an affair, you take the risks when you do that. It has to do with action not consequence. The mental aspect is all there and it is enough, and lots of times EA lead to PA's.
> 
> OK now don't answer my post just yell at me again.


I guess I don't get it, and never will. You state that a lot of times, EA leads to PA. Well, a lot of times it doesn't, as well. Those would be the long distance, no chance of meeting EAs. The scenarios presented still do not answer my question. At what point is it OK to ask the BS about his or her role in any problems that occurred before the affair? Based on your response, I would gather the answer would be "never", but I truly hope I am wrong. 

As for yelling at you... I am not, nor have I been, so not sure what that's about.  :scratchhead:



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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> I guess I don't get it, and never will. You state that a lot of times, EA leads to PA. Well, a lot of times it doesn't, as well. Those would be the long distance, no chance of meeting EAs. The scenarios presented still do not answer my question. At what point is it OK to ask the BS about his or her role in any problems that occurred before the affair? Based on your response, I would gather the answer would be "never", but I truly hope I am wrong.
> 
> As for yelling at you... I am not, nor have I been, so not sure what that's about.  :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


So it isn't those things that were written in the post but it is still tremendous doubt and heartbreak and fear and all the other things that go with it. 

I have great sympathy for people who have bad marriages and if you spouse had the emotional intelligence of a mouse I get that a spouse would be lonely. To me though those are two separate issues. The affair kills the marriage at that point. You are not even going to deal with the problems in the marriage because at that point the old marriage is dead and now you are in a marriage with 3 entities. Spouse 1, Spouse 2 and the affair. This is a whole new marriage. If you try to stay together you are really starting over, and it is going to be way worse for a long time. The WS has also lost any high ground they may have had. 

It sounds like what you are saying to me is well if your spouse has the emotional intelligence of a mouse then having an EA isn't really so bad, at least they weren't sleeping together. I see that as minimizing. I've seen lots and lots of BSs say it was the lying and dishonesty that was worse, even when the affair is a PA.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> So it isn't those things that were written in the post but it is still tremendous doubt and heartbreak and fear and all the other things that go with it.
> 
> I have great sympathy for people who have bad marriages and if you spouse had the emotional intelligence of a mouse I get that a spouse would be lonely. To me though those are two separate issues. The affair kills the marriage at that point. You are not even going to deal with the problems in the marriage because at that point the old marriage is dead and now you are in a marriage with 3 entities. Spouse 1, Spouse 2 and the affair. This is a whole new marriage. If you try to stay together you are really starting over, and it is going to be way worse for a long time. The WS has also lost any high ground they may have had.
> 
> It sounds like what you are saying to me is well if your spouse has the emotional intelligence of a mouse then having an EA isn't really so bad, at least they weren't sleeping together. I see that as minimizing. I've seen lots and lots of BSs say it was the lying and dishonesty that was worse, even when the affair is a PA.


You think it kills the marriage. I disagree. I think it *can* kill the marriage, but it doesn't always. Again, it's JMO. I could forgive either EA or PA. But, as an example, if he molested a child, I couldn't stay with him. If he beat either myself or any of the kids, he would be gone. We all have our breaking points, our own boundaries. For some, infidelity is the line in the sand. For others, it is not. 

*Just to be clear: No, there has not been any molestation. No, there has not been any hitting. I only used those as *my own* line in the sand, that's all.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> You think it kills the marriage. I disagree. I think it *can* kill the marriage, but it doesn't always. Again, it's JMO. I could forgive either EA or PA. But, as an example, if he molested a child, I couldn't stay with him. If he beat either myself or any of the kids, he would be gone. We all have our breaking points, our own boundaries. For some, infidelity is the line in the sand. For others, it is not.
> 
> *Just to be clear: No, there has not been any molestation. No, there has not been any hitting. I only used those as *my own* line in the sand, that's all.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


It kills the original marriage yes. What you have after is a different marriage or relationship with all the fear and doubt, a different level of trust, then you had before. So yes the original marriage as the BS saw it is dead.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> It kills the original marriage yes. What you have after is a different marriage or relationship with all the fear and doubt, a different level of trust, then you had before. So yes the original marriage as the BS saw it is dead.


Ok, I will revise my point. It isn't gone, but it IS different, if they choose to fix it. Like I said, it's just my opinion. And, if they decide to stay together, everything from before the affair does need to be dealt with. You cannot move forward, together, if all you focus on is the affair. Otherwise, you will just have the same problems creep in again.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, I will revise my point. It isn't gone, but it IS different, if they choose to fix it. Like I said, it's just my opinion. And, if they decide to stay together, everything from before the affair does need to be dealt with. You cannot move forward, together, if all you focus on is the affair. Otherwise, you will just have the same problems creep in again.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I completely agree with that but you have to first deal with the affair because most often the hurt is so strong that there is no way to even try to address the other problems. 

This is one of the terrible ironies of having an affair because there are problems in your marriage. It basically removes you from being able to address these problems for quite a wild. This is also why I rarely believe in R. The power balance in the relationship is harshly skewed for a long time. So this means years of just fixing the affair before you ever even get to the problems that preceded them. Life is too short. 

Now you will say why can't you do both but as I see it, most WS will say, you are doing this and this and this again to hurt me, BS will think yeah well so what, at least I not F*cking someone else. In most BS's minds they have the high road, WS problems are trivial compared to the betrayal of being cheated on. Which is true, even most WS will agree. The motivation to clean up ones act goes out the window once a person has been emotionally destroyed.

By the way this is how I suspect I have so many posts. Engaging in discussion on here. Not posting like a some guy in his basement.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I completely agree with that but you have to first deal with the affair because most often the hurt is so strong that there is no way to even try to address the other problems.
> 
> This is one of the terrible ironies of having an affair because there are problems in your marriage. It basically removes you from being able to address these problems for quite a wild. This is also why I rarely believe in R. The power balance in the relationship is harshly skewed for a long time. So this means years of just fixing the affair before you ever even get to the problems that preceded them. Life is too short.
> 
> ...


I agree. Even though,eventually pre affair problems can be addressed,there would be so much resentment and HURT in the BS,it would make repairing things way more difficult.
Who wants to reward the WS further with the benefit of a better marriage knowing one is Plan B and knowing how one subsidized all that fun and excitement the WS had while one was gaslit,picked on,humiliated etc?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This thread is a very good example of why we don't have a forum for WS. Good grief.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This thread is a very good example of why we don't have a forum for WS. Good grief.


Pretty sure each time it comes up, this is EXACTLY the reason it has been shot down by admins... I think they (Chris, at the time, actually) stated that it wouldn't happen because of what has happened in this particular thread. 

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> This thread is a very good example of why we don't have a forum for WS. Good grief.


I don't understand why rigorous debate is a bad thing. It is a forum after all.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I don't understand why rigorous debate is a bad thing. It is a forum after all.


Rigorous debate is great. For the website of the Rigorous Debating Society. However, this is Talk About Marriage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I don't understand why rigorous debate is a bad thing. It is a forum after all.





MattMatt said:


> Rigorous debate is great. For the website of the Rigorous Debating Society. However, this is Talk About Marriage.


I don't have a problem with debates. It's the absolutes that tend to be an issue.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> I don't have a problem with debates. It's the absolutes that tend to be an issue.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Right in wrong are absolutes. 0


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Rigorous debate is great. For the website of the Rigorous Debating Society. However, this is Talk About Marriage.


SI is exactly the kind of website you are looking for Matt. I believe even if you don't agree different perspectives are healthy for personal growth.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> SI is exactly the kind of website you are looking for Matt. I believe even if you don't agree different perspectives are healthy for personal growth.


TAM is ideal for me.

I believe in helping others, not just debating issues.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Right in wrong are absolutes. 0


Grrrrrr!! 😝

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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> TAM is ideal for me.
> 
> I believe in helping others, not just debating issues.


They are not mutually exclusive. Let us know when you start helping.:smile2:


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Pretty sure each time it comes up, this is EXACTLY the reason it has been shot down by admins... I think they (Chris, at the time, actually) stated that it wouldn't happen because of what has happened in this particular thread.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Folks disagree. For the most part,respectfully. What is the big deal? Other views are okay with me. Helps me see how wayward think.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> I don't have a problem with debates. It's the absolutes that tend to be an issue.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


There are different points of view on cheaters. No one is out of line in presenting their view.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lardo said:


> They are not mutually exclusive. Let us know when you start helping.:smile2:


I just did something to help TAM.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: Admins, Atta boy!can we start a WS Stories forum section?*

Atta boy!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> TAM is ideal for me.
> 
> I believe in helping others, not just debating issues.


The best way to help the deceived even if it is self inflicted is to speak the truth.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> The best way to help the deceived even if it is self inflicted is to speak the truth.


There's plenty of opportunities to do that on TAM, that's true.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> There's plenty of opportunities to do that on TAM, that's true.


Very good point.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Getting back to the original topic - the SI wayward section can be awful - cheaters post under stop signs and then man spew a lot of self-centered bullsh!t....it gives them a "safe space" where they dont have to be challenged and plenty of those folks could use a challenge - it turns into a sewer sometimes...the one thing is when cheaters are allowed to spew unchallenged you see the real them come out and it is not pretty..Bandit once said this and boy was he right...cheaters refusing polygraphs because they think it is extreme or having multiple or LTAs and then whining because their spouse isnt healing fast enough..on the flip side the "just found out" section there bans waywards from posting and I think that is silly also..waywards should be free to engage and offer insights when they have them...we're adults we dont need to be monitored like pre-k students...CWI allows all to post - like adults...there is nothing stopping someone from starting a thread or a group for wayward stories...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Getting back to the original topic - the SI wayward section can be awful - cheaters post under stop signs and then man spew a lot of self-centered bullsh!t....it gives them a "safe space" where they dont have to be challenged and plenty of those folks could use a challenge - it turns into a sewer sometimes...the one thing is when cheaters are allowed to spew unchallenged you see the real them come out and it is not pretty..Bandit once said this and boy was he right...cheaters refusing polygraphs because they think it is extreme or having multiple or LTAs and then whining because their spouse is healing fast enough..on the flip side the "just found out" section there bans waywards from posting and I think that is silly also..waywards should be free to engage and offer insights when they have them...we're adults we dont need to be monitored like pre-k students...CWI allows all to post - like adults...there is nothing stopping someone from starting a thread or a group for wayward stories...


The weirdest s**t I ever saw was over on the old D*c C**l site. Two cheaters were undergoing therapy to help them cope with the guilt of cheating on their trusting, but clueless spouses. :surprise:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> The weirdest s**t I ever saw was over on the old D*c C**l site. Two cheaters were undergoing therapy to help them cope with the guilt of cheating on their trusting, but clueless spouses. :surprise:


There was on WW on SI - who never told her H - and posts in the Wayward section - IMO her viewpoint could use a serious challenge but they nail people wiht the ban hammer a lot form what I understand - in many cases - if not the overhwelming majority cheaters are selfish and self-centered and SI does allow that to come though unchallenged.....but like I said earlier the rules for the JFO section are silly too some remorseful folks really do want to help - some there do get it but many dont even though they think they do...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> There was on WW on SI - who never told her H - and posts in the Wayward section - IMO her viewpoint could use a serious challenge but they nail people wiht the ban hammer a lot form what I understand - in many cases - if not the overhwelming majority cheaters are selfish and self-centered and SI does allow that to come though unchallenged.....but like I said earlier the rules for the JFO section are silly too some remorseful folks really do want to help - some there do get it but many dont even though they think they do...


Don't forget bullies. Cheaters are generally bullies, they bully their spouses when they get caught.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Don't forget bullies. Cheaters are generally bullies, they bully their spouses when they get caught.


What I see a lot of is when a cheater gets caught is then they declare that rules of decorum and civility must be observed by the BS - dont say too many bad words to me and bullsh!t like that - they spent who knows how long cheating in their marriage and the BS is supposed to behave like a member of the choir when they catch them..whatever..such utter nonsense in that section of SI...whats worse is BSs who jump in and agree with them...I do notice BSs 5,10, 15 years out and its still haunting them -aside form physical abuse cheating is the most vile thing you can do to your partner and whatever misfortune falls on the cheater they have earned...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> What I see a lot of is when a cheater gets caught is then they declare that rules of decorum and civility must be observed by the BS - dont say too many bad words to me and bullsh!t like that - they spent who knows how long cheating in their marriage and the BS is supposed to behave like a member of the choir when they catch them..whatever..such utter nonsense in that section of SI...whats worse is BSs who jump in and agree with them...I do notice BSs 5,10, 15 years out and its still haunting them -aside form physical abuse cheating is the most vile thing you can do to your partner and whatever misfortune falls on the cheater they have earned...


I would take physical abuse. Even the molestations I experienced as a child did less damage to me.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lardo said:


> I would take physical abuse. Even the molestations I experienced as a child did less damage to me.


I'm sorry you experienced that abuse as a child....

Cheaters and their apologists dont realize the damage they fvcking do..permanent damage...bottom line is a BS does not deserve those permanent scars...they dont get it because they dont have those scars - they move on...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm sorry you experienced that abuse as a child....
> 
> Cheaters and their apologists dont realize the damage they fvcking do..permanent damage...bottom line is a BS does not deserve those permanent scars...they dont get it because they dont have those scars - they move on...


It seems evident to me that no matter how many BS' stories they hear,how many books they read where the author describes the effects on the BS, the WS minimize the damage.
One recent poster compared it to stealing a pack of gum.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lardo said:


> It seems evident to me that no matter how many BS' stories they hear,how many books they read where the author describes the effects on the BS, the WS minimize the damage.
> *One recent poster compared it to stealing a pack of gum.*


I did not see that post but if that is the actual quote that is idiotic..fvcking idiotic...so the message from thosefolks like that is cheat first rationalize later...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lardo said:


> It seems evident to me that no matter how many BS' stories they hear,how many books they read where the author describes the effects on the BS, the WS minimize the damage.
> 
> *One recent poster compared it to stealing a pack of gum*.


NO he did not.

That poster used stealing a pack of gum vs stealing all the funds from an orphanage to make a point that there are different degrees of magnitude of theft, just as an EA is different from a PA.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> NO he did not.
> 
> 
> 
> That poster used stealing a pack of gum vs stealing all the funds from an orphanage to make a point that there are different degrees of magnitude of theft, just as an EA is different from a PA.




Thank you. That is correct. Not that the truth or facts matter to some posters.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I did not see that post but if that is the actual quote that is idiotic..fvcking idiotic...so the message from thosefolks like that is cheat first rationalize later...




No that was not the actual quote and he knows that.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> No that was not the actual quote and he knows that.


Ok...I think I need to tap out of this thread...I'm on enough blood pressure meds as it is....


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