# This thread is for men whose wives left them



## SeparationAnxiety

..., and there was no cheating involved by either party (or any emotional affair, either). This is for all those who just grew apart over the years, due to kids, job, whatever...

I am in this boat right now. After more than two decades of faithful marriage (to the best of my knowledge), my wife notified me that she wants to get divorced and that there is no going back. This did not happen all of a sudden, she had been threatening it for years. I have been a fool and ignored these threats. Over the succeeding week I managed to convince her to at least do a trial separation first, as my last best effort to save the marriage. We have (young) teenage kids and this has been hard on them as well. 

I can see that it is basically up to me now to enact change for the both of us, since she is still resolved that this will not work and divorce is inevitable. I am trying all I can to enable reconciliation in the not too distant future (months?).

Fortunately, I have been able to reconnect with her and at least am now able to engage her in meaningful conversation. Unfortunately, I made all of the classic mistakes in the beginning upon hearing the news (crying, begging, squirming, etc..., to get one more chance, please...). All that did was to strengthen her resolve (to divorce).

At this point, I am reading one book after another as our separation is about to come into effect over the coming weeks. We are still under the same roof for the time being, but are sleeping in different beds. Let me tell you right off the bat, good books with good advice have done wonders in guiding me on this path. I don't know where I would be without them!

Each day is a challenge and I am often overwhelmed with negative emotions of, "What if things don't work out and we actually do get divorced?" But, i am still optimistic and trying to save our marriage. Unfortunately, I know that there is no way I can convince her to get counseling in the interim. So, it's all up to me, to be the shoulder to lean on, the counselor, and to change myself in meaningful positive ways to be the man she wants. All of this is happening as she tells me that even if I become the perfect husband, our marriage is over, making this doubly, triply, hard.

A lot of the threads on here are about partners who have cheated. A lot of the advice given assumes cheating was involved, whether people want to believe it or not. Well, I can state with as much certainty as can be possible for a human being to have, that there was no cheating that has brought this upon me from either side, just us growing apart and me totally ignoring her for the last who knows how many years. Now I will have to pay the price, one way or another...

I am hoping that this thread can be for others in a similar state - Long marriage, grow apart, wife feels that she is no longer in love with husband, wife files for divorce or leaves and refuses to get counseling or reconcile. The future of the marriage, if at all possible, is entirely in the husband's hands. Actions may work, words do little. The husband is doing everything possible to make reconciliation happen. 

Good advice is always welcome by those who have been in a similar boat.


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## katiecrna

What are her problems with the marriage? She has been threatening divorce for a while... What are the issues?


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## Relationship Teacher

At the point of separation, counseling is no longer effective. For counseling to work, there has to be a relationship in place. As odd as that may sound, imagine yourself on the soccer field. The game of soccer does not work well when the players don't want to be there, even if there is a coach. Counseling is more effective before the team breaks down, when the team coach can actually be listened to and the players still have that urge to work together towards a common goal.

What do you do if you find yourself in this situation? Don't give up; surrender to life. Use this as a catalyst to be the person you always wanted to be, the best person you are possible of. When you achieve that goal, then further push your boundaries. With a strong drive to continually work on yourself, you will become someone that your partner would naturally want to be around. Have I been in your shoes? Absolutely. Because of that and the tremendous personal growth that I have achieved, I can give you a better idea of what works and what doesn't, which you have already spoken about to an extent.

While you seem to be doing a great job and are holding up rather well, attempting to reconnect with a separated spouse is a whole new endeavor. You no longer have access to this person on a day-to-day basis and they might enjoy their new-found freedom, at least initially. What you can do is let her come back to you and you do this with that aforementioned internally directed effort to better yourself. You also have to stay on her mind and you do this by staying in touch with her. You would be well-advised to send her some type of invitations, and you might be rejected for weeks or even months. You aren't inviting her out to a romantic date, you are inviting her to enjoy each other as friends. From there, the relationship can be rebuilt, but that takes time and patience. By being persistent and maintaining a positive outlook, you show her that you are someone that she can trust and that you are reliable. That consistency is what she will be testing. She might expect a negative emotional reaction by rejecting you. When you fail to give one, you take her by surprise, in a good way. You can also invite her to tag-along with some mutual friends of yours and hers. Again, you are making it a low pressure type of engagement.

When she asks how you are doing, you are doing great. Self-happiness is the quickest way to get her back, although there is never a guarantee. I am very glad to see the positive nature that you have expressed in your post.


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## Marduk

Why didn't you listen and value the relationship then?

Why do you all of a sudden want a relationship with her now, when you obviously didn't then?

I don't get why people think a wedding ring is the same as putting on a pair of handcuffs between the two of you and throwing away the key.

You earn a marriage. Every day.


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## VeryHurt

Let her see (actions speak louder than words, words are cheap, watch his feet) that you truly, genuinely care and that she will never be taken for granted ever again.


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## SeparationAnxiety

katiecrna said:


> What are her problems with the marriage? She has been threatening divorce for a while... What are the issues?





marduk said:


> Why didn't you listen and value the relationship then?
> 
> Why do you all of a sudden want a relationship with her now, when you obviously didn't then?
> 
> I don't get why people think a wedding ring is the same as putting on a pair of handcuffs between the two of you and throwing away the key.
> 
> You earn a marriage. Every day.


So the issues come down to the fact that I spent more time on the computer than with her and sometimes with the kids as well. The last several vacations, for example, well, it was just her and the kids. I feel so bad about it in retrospect and I guess it came down to me growing to become too selfish over the more than two decades that we've been together. Don't get me wrong, if she ever had any sort of serious problem, I was always there for her. It was just the day to day - not enough love and caring. And, this has been going on for a long time... She's threatened divorce before and I guess I sort of ignored the signs.

I think I was suffering from a sort of mild depression, as well, combined with a computer addiction (MMOs, shows/serials watched by myself, etc...). Too much of a geek and a loner to be a good husband and father. Now, I regret it all.

As to why do I want a relationship with her now, well the inevitable threat of immediate divorce hit me like a piano falling on my head. It made me re-evaluate my life, my treatment of her, and how much time I was spending with the kids. I came to the realization that I love her more than life itself and of course I love my kids as well and that whatever was required of me to be what she wanted me to be will be worth the effort.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, this realization came too late in the game. So, the separation which is happening shortly, is inevitable. I have agreed to give her slightly more custody of the kids during the separation, but on the other hand we have both agreed that we will be able to visit the kids whenever we like (when it's not our turn) at the other person's place. So, this seems to be a fairly open separation with regard to visitation privileges. It also gives more opportunity to continue the re-connection process.

I also told her that if she ever feels lonely (when the kids are with me) and needs someone to talk to, I can just swing by and be there for her. I am making myself very available and realize that this could be a mistake (i.e., not being hard to get), but I am still (re)acting somewhat emotionally and feeling guilty at this point. At least I am conscious of the fact and realize that I am willing going against "textbook" advice.

I want to show her that I am willing to change and be the person she wants me to be. I just hope that she gives me the time necessary to show her this and falls back in love with me, before being convinced (in part by toxic divorced friends) that she should proceed with a divorce. We have no fixed deadline for this and are kind of playing it by ear. I believe that time will work in my favor, as long as I can be a good husband and father and really make my positive changes as such permanent.


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## SeparationAnxiety

Relationship Teacher said:


> At the point of separation, counseling is no longer effective. For counseling to work, there has to be a relationship in place. As odd as that may sound, imagine yourself on the soccer field. The game of soccer does not work well when the players don't want to be there, even if there is a coach. Counseling is more effective before the team breaks down, when the team coach can actually be listened to and the players still have that urge to work together towards a common goal.
> 
> What do you do if you find yourself in this situation? Don't give up; surrender to life. Use this as a catalyst to be the person you always wanted to be, the best person you are possible of. When you achieve that goal, then further push your boundaries. With a strong drive to continually work on yourself, you will become someone that your partner would naturally want to be around. Have I been in your shoes? Absolutely. Because of that and the tremendous personal growth that I have achieved, I can give you a better idea of what works and what doesn't, which you have already spoken about to an extent.
> 
> While you seem to be doing a great job and are holding up rather well, attempting to reconnect with a separated spouse is a whole new endeavor. You no longer have access to this person on a day-to-day basis and they might enjoy their new-found freedom, at least initially. What you can do is let her come back to you and you do this with that aforementioned internally directed effort to better yourself. You also have to stay on her mind and you do this by staying in touch with her. You would be well-advised to send her some type of invitations, and you might be rejected for weeks or even months. You aren't inviting her out to a romantic date, you are inviting her to enjoy each other as friends. From there, the relationship can be rebuilt, but that takes time and patience. By being persistent and maintaining a positive outlook, you show her that you are someone that she can trust and that you are reliable. That consistency is what she will be testing. She might expect a negative emotional reaction by rejecting you. When you fail to give one, you take her by surprise, in a good way. You can also invite her to tag-along with some mutual friends of yours and hers. Again, you are making it a low pressure type of engagement.
> 
> When she asks how you are doing, you are doing great. Self-happiness is the quickest way to get her back, although there is never a guarantee. I am very glad to see the positive nature that you have expressed in your post.


Thank you for your advice. I have found several tidbits in there that I plan to apply!


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## Marduk

Why should she think this change of yours is going to stick now?

I have to be honest, man. I'm pretty sceptical of folks that have years of warning of divorce and who suddenly convert and see the light only when the divorce starts. 

I mean, what you're essentially saying is that you're afraid to be alone, but didn't want to do the work to stay when you had the chance. 

You blew it. Earning her trust is going to be hard, and probably take the rest of your life. 

Are you up for that?

Because I think once you got comfortable again, you'd be right back in front of the computer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeparationAnxiety

marduk said:


> Why should she think this change of yours is going to stick now?
> 
> I have to be honest, man. I'm pretty sceptical of folks that have years of warning of divorce and who suddenly convert and see the light only when the divorce starts.
> 
> I mean, what you're essentially saying is that you're afraid to be alone, but didn't want to do the work to stay when you had the chance.
> 
> You blew it. Earning her trust is going to be hard, and probably take the rest of your life.
> 
> Are you up for that?
> 
> Because I think once you got comfortable again, you'd be right back in front of the computer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you. I am up for that. I totally understand that earning her trust will be a prolonged up-hill battle, as it should be after all this time of "blowing it." I have told her during one of the more emotional conversations that I will dedicate my life to correct the wrongs in our relationship. I meant it at the time (about a week ago) and still mean it now. I am in my mid-forties and mature enough to understand what that entails.

Before I can get comfortable again, we have to reconcile. Then, time will tell I suppose, but I really want to be a good husband and father and am striving for it on a daily basis, even if it has only been for several weeks.

Despite the fact that we are about to separate, I greatly enjoy our moments of communication. I make her smile. I make her laugh. At some points, it's as if we are still happily married. I live for those moments and am ever hopeful that she is willing to see me in a new light over time.

Can people change? Yes, I believe they can if they have the desire and willpower to do it. Can the changes last? Only time will tell, but I believe that if the change is positive and there is outside reinforcement (from one's spouse) which is not always a given, it most certainly can become permanent.


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## Marduk

SeparationAnxiety said:


> I hear you. I am up for that. Before I can get comfortable again, we have to reconcile. Then, time will tell I suppose, but I really want to be the person I describe and am striving for it on a daily basis.
> 
> Despite the fact that we are about to separate, I greatly enjoy our moments of communication. I make her smile. I make her laugh. At some points, it's as if we are still happily married. I live for those moments and am ever hopeful that she is willing to see me in a new light over time.
> 
> Can people change? Yes, I believe they can if they have the desire and willpower to do it. Can the changes last? Only time will tell, but I believe that if the change is positive and there is outside reinforcement (from one's spouse) which is not always a given, it most certainly can become permanent.


I'm not exactly sensing a sudden enlightenment on your part, man. 

I think you weren't scared of losing her, and now you are. And that's all. 

But that being said, yes, people can change. 

What exactly is it that you want to change about yourself, would do so even if she left, and how are you going to enact that change. 

In short, who do you want to be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeparationAnxiety

marduk said:


> I'm not exactly sensing a sudden enlightenment on your part, man.
> 
> I think you weren't scared of losing her, and now you are. And that's all.
> 
> But that being said, yes, people can change.
> 
> What exactly is it that you want to change about yourself, would do so even if she left, and how are you going to enact that change.
> 
> In short, who do you want to be?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will admit, the vast majority if not all my changes are based around me being married to her. I am totally going about it from that perspective, but I do sense that any positive improvements in me will carry over even if I fail.

As for what do I want to change in myself? I want to be a good caring and loving husband to her and a better father to the kids. 

But, what does that mean? Well, quite frankly I don't know, but I am reading books to help clue me in. Women do not come with an instruction manual when you marry them. Men are different from women and without guidance, we all make mistakes. Some of us learn from them, some of us do not. Since I am open to "study" at this point, I think I can rectify my inadequacies over time. At least I am going to try my best.


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## Marduk

SeparationAnxiety said:


> I will admit, the vast majority if not all my changes are based around me being married to her. I am totally going about it from that perspective, but I do sense that any positive improvements in me will carry over even if I fail.
> 
> As for what do I want to change in myself? I want to be a good caring and loving husband to her and a better father to the kids.
> 
> But, what does that mean? Well, quite frankly I don't know, but I am reading books to help clue me in. Women do not come with an instruction manual when you marry them. Men are different from women and without guidance, we all make mistakes. Some of us learn from them, some of us do not. Since I am open to "study" at this point, I think I can rectify my inadequacies over time. At least I am going to try my best.


You are likely going to fail because you're doing it to make her happy, not make yourself better. 

You need to start with square one. Take her out of the equation. 

Have you been the best version of you that you could be? Do you know what that is? Do you know why you weren't striving to be that guy?

Answer those three questions honestly in a way that has nothing to do with your soon to be ex wife. 

That's where you start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeparationAnxiety

marduk said:


> You are likely going to fail because you're doing it to make her happy, not make yourself better.
> 
> You need to start with square one. Take her out of the equation.
> 
> Have you been the best version of you that you could be? Do you know what that is? Do you know why you weren't striving to be that guy?
> 
> Answer those three questions honestly in a way that has nothing to do with your soon to be ex wife.
> 
> That's where you start.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, that will require some serious thought. I am so focused on her right now, that it's nearly impossible to remove her from the equation of what I want to be(come). For now, I will admit it, I am slowly entering doormat mode until I come up with better options.


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## Marc878

First of all cut your contact with the PC, etc. there is a whole new life out there.

You need to work on you so do not come across as needy and smother here with to much attention. Start doing things on your own.

Get a gym membership, make yourself attractive if you're out of shape etc.

Look at your wardrobe, etc. do some things for you. Also become somewhat independent if you aren't. Do some of your laundry, cook, clean up etc.

You have a tough road ahead. You let this go like many and now it's in your face.

If you've apologized stop. Your actions will speak more. No one wants to here the same sh!t over and over again.

It may be a good time to learn some new things for yourself, educational, cooking classes, etc.

It'll show two things you are remaking yourself and if it doesn't work out you'll be fine on your own.


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## Marc878

If you become a doormat she will lose respect and it will be game over.

Don't be the needy puppy here.


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## Ynot

I have been there and I agree that you have a very tough row to hoe going forward. Typically once a woman decides to make a break of it, her mind is made up and there is no changing it. I am not trying to discourage you, but I am only speaking of my own experience and that of others that I went to when my wife left me. 
As others have said at this point, your one and only option is to focus on you. You must become the best person you can be. But, and this is huge - you must do it for you. You cannot be motivated by her, your family, your marriage or anything else. 
Whether you are able to save your marriage or not, the effort will be well worth it. You may become a person who your wife is attracted to and she may open the door for you. OTOH, even if she doesn't, by focusing on you, you are preparing for the rest of your life and will be better able to take the hit.
I feel badly for you and I will not scold you. Life happens and what you described happens to many many people. Unfortunately, when something like this comes up we often tend to blame ourselves and fail to really see how our SO had any part in the disengagement. But I can assure you, that she did. 
That is not to throw all the blame on her, but merely to recognize that it takes two to make or break a relationship. You pulled away because something was missing for you as well. Something you sought else where, whether it was the computer or somewhere else. 
Focus on yourself. become the best that you can be for YOU and no one else. Whatever is going to happen, will happen. You can influence it by your effort to improve yourself, but really have no input otherwise. I wish you luck. I hope it all works out for you and your family.


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## Openminded

I'm going to give you a woman's perspective. 

Women typically spend a very long time trying to convince their husbands that their marriage needs help (even bringing up divorce as a shock tactic to make them wake up). But when it doesn't work, over time they become discouraged and eventually give up. They may still love their husbands but they are no longer in love with them and they want out. They are tired of being the only one concerned. Can that be turned around? Sometimes. But temporary change is easy and they know that. They don't trust their husbands to do the hard work necessary for permanent change. 

Will your wife give you another chance considering she feels she's given you too many as it is? Maybe. Right now she likely sees you as a scared little boy clinging desperately to what he knows for fear it will go away. That's definitely not attractive to women. Act like the man you're supposed to be and make those changes for you, not her. She'll notice. Whether or not it's enough to save your marriage remains to be seen but you'll be a better person at the end of the day.


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## SeparationAnxiety

OK, I full on asked her last night whether she has ever cheated on me over the more than two decades we've been married and whether the divorce request leading to the impending separation was prompted by an affair of any sort.

She was very upset, almost to the point of tears and said absolutely not and how could I even think that. Yep, that moment was a step backward for improving the relationship, but it had to be done for my sanity at least. On the other hand, she did admit that being a guy, she could see how I could wonder about that. I responded saying, "yes, it's a guy thing."

I told her that the reason I asked point blank is because I've said many times over the years that I would never cheat on you and have never heard you explicitly say the same words back to me. Well, I feel much better now after hearing them. All of the EA/PA escapades you read about on this forum can make any man wonder.

I pretty much knew she wasn't having any sort of physical affair (at this time, at least), because I can fully account for practically 99.9% of her time these days (out of work, at least). Also, she often talks about male co-workers (by name, even) semi-hitting on her and I don't think she would be that direct if something was spiraling out of control with one of them.


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## foolmeonce1974

Cheaters lie. My ex-wife was banging guys in a parking lot off the freeway during her lunch break. There is always time for an affair...


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## jb02157

When your spouse is not happy and they say they aren't, chances are it's not an idle threat. You have to do something right away to get things right. I'm sorry that this has happened and it's not right for a woman to be able to walk away when ever she wants and take half of you're money with her, but this is marriage these days, you're future rides the whim of your spouse.


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## SeparationAnxiety

foolmeonce1974 said:


> Cheaters lie. My ex-wife was banging guys in a parking lot off the freeway during her lunch break. There is always time for an affair...


How did you find this out?


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## Hope1964

There's not much point in you finding out whether she cheated, because it isn't going to make a bit of difference to the way you act. You are determined to play the doormat now and fawn over her, now that you've finally realized you acted like as a$$ for years. Like I said in your other thread, I think it's way too late, but hey, knock yourself out.

At least do yourself this favour: give yourself a time limit. After 6 months or so, re evaluate your relationship and see how much progress you've made. Promise yourself that the grovelling will stop if you haven't won her back 100%


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## Spotthedeaddog

SeparationAnxiety said:


> ..., and there was no cheating involved by either party (or any emotional affair, either). This is for all those who just grew apart over the years, due to kids, job, whatever...
> 
> I am in this boat right now. After more than two decades of faithful marriage (to the best of my knowledge), my wife notified me that she wants to get divorced and that there is no going back. This did not happen all of a sudden, she had been threatening it for years. I have been a fool and ignored these threats. Over the succeeding week I managed to convince her to at least do a trial separation first, as my last best effort to save the marriage. We have (young) teenage kids and this has been hard on them as well.
> 
> I can see that it is basically up to me now to enact change for the both of us, since she is still resolved that this will not work and divorce is inevitable. I am trying all I can to enable reconciliation in the not too distant future (months?).
> 
> Fortunately, I have been able to reconnect with her and at least am now able to engage her in meaningful conversation. Unfortunately, I made all of the classic mistakes in the beginning upon hearing the news (crying, begging, squirming, etc..., to get one more chance, please...). All that did was to strengthen her resolve (to divorce).
> 
> At this point, I am reading one book after another as our separation is about to come into effect over the coming weeks. We are still under the same roof for the time being, but are sleeping in different beds. Let me tell you right off the bat, good books with good advice have done wonders in guiding me on this path. I don't know where I would be without them!
> 
> Each day is a challenge and I am often overwhelmed with negative emotions of, "What if things don't work out and we actually do get divorced?" But, i am still optimistic and trying to save our marriage. Unfortunately, I know that there is no way I can convince her to get counseling in the interim. So, it's all up to me, to be the shoulder to lean on, the counselor, and to change myself in meaningful positive ways to be the man she wants. All of this is happening as she tells me that even if I become the perfect husband, our marriage is over, making this doubly, triply, hard.
> 
> A lot of the threads on here are about partners who have cheated. A lot of the advice given assumes cheating was involved, whether people want to believe it or not. Well, I can state with as much certainty as can be possible for a human being to have, that there was no cheating that has brought this upon me from either side, just us growing apart and me totally ignoring her for the last who knows how many years. Now I will have to pay the price, one way or another...
> 
> I am hoping that this thread can be for others in a similar state - Long marriage, grow apart, wife feels that she is no longer in love with husband, wife files for divorce or leaves and refuses to get counseling or reconcile. The future of the marriage, if at all possible, is entirely in the husband's hands. Actions may work, words do little. The husband is doing everything possible to make reconciliation happen.
> 
> Good advice is always welcome by those who have been in a similar boat.


Is this a troll or an advert? I've seen the same thing posted on TAM twice before with the same pattern in the last 9 months. And linguistic patterns are very similar, and notably mild and impersonal everytime.

Answers the same for the others dude.
Read the 5 love languages, his needs/her needs, (another book about end of relationships and being respected as a man, whose name I've forgotten).
Read up about the Female Mid Life crisis.
Get to grips that she no longer has higher estrogen so no long has the hormonal push to seek a sperm donor and free resource provider, but her need to put herself above and first in everything and claim her own territory has not changed; in other words you are simply now redundant to her needs and such scraps will be discarded. Thus the more noise and effort you make the more you will be ignored - you are simply not a resource for her to exploit so have no use, in fact she gets more resources and freedom by firing you and splitting with as much of her accumulated assets as she can get.

Best advice? make sure you have a pre-nup and always keep separate accounts, and never _ever_ do the "he pays expenses/mortgage, she pays for luxuries/holidays/investment" or you will find yourself old , lonely, and penniless.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Openminded said:


> I'm going to give you a woman's perspective.
> 
> Women typically spend a very long time trying to convince their husbands that their marriage needs help (even bringing up divorce as a shock tactic to make them wake up). But when it doesn't work, over time they become discouraged and eventually give up. They may still love their husbands but they are no longer in love with them and they want out. They are tired of being the only one concerned. Can that be turned around? Sometimes. But temporary change is easy and they know that. They don't trust their husbands to do the hard work necessary for permanent change.
> 
> Will your wife give you another chance considering she feels she's given you too many as it is? Maybe. Right now she likely sees you as a scared little boy clinging desperately to what he knows for fear it will go away. That's definitely not attractive to women. Act like the man you're supposed to be and make those changes for you, not her. She'll notice. Whether or not it's enough to save your marriage remains to be seen but you'll be a better person at the end of the day.


Well said.

Just to point out though... most women use "womenspeak" in their trying to communicate with their husbands. 
Placing two glasses on the dinner table slightly further apart than they were yesterday (a "clear signal" that we're drifting apart) type behavior just doesn't cut it. Try a large sign "you're sleeping on the couch tonight", with "how to save your marriage book" on top of a pile of blankets, with a note nailed to front saying "This for you" <- or if subtle isn't really "your way", try email with "Your marriage is in trouble, only you can save it. do it before it is too late" (please use that exact quote. preferrable at least 20 times in the single email. and from your own account (not your girlfriends).

- Oh - while I remember... if you don't want your future husband to "act like a little boy" then don't spend your entire relationship/marriage/social-contract-time trying to emasculate him !!!!!!


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## foolmeonce1974

SeparationAnxiety said:


> How did you find this out?


VAR


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## aine

jb02157 said:


> When your spouse is not happy and they say they aren't, chances are it's not an idle threat. You have to do something right away to get things right. I'm sorry that this has happened and it's not right for a woman to be able to walk away when ever she wants and take half of you're money with her, but this is marriage these days, you're future rides the whim of your spouse.


You have missed a key point, there are many wives who have agonised over leaving their marriage. They have begged, pleaded, threatened their H to get his **** together and help her strengthen the marriage.
I don't know why some H perceive that as nagging, zone out and then only grapple to do so when it is too late. Many men are so obtuse and lazy. So it is not a whim. It is something going on for a long time. Why is it that for the most part women are the keepers of the relationship?


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## Ynot

aine said:


> You have missed a key point, there are many wives who have agonised over leaving their marriage. They have begged, pleaded, threatened their H to get his **** together and help her strengthen the marriage.
> I don't know why some H perceive that as nagging, zone out and then only grapple to do so when it is too late. Many men are so obtuse and lazy. So it is not a whim. It is something going on for a long time. Why is it that for the most part women are the keepers of the relationship?


The first part may be true. The second part not so much. These women who agonize over leaving their marriage - why don't they do a better job of communicating? Spotthedeaddog has a post just before yours where he basically lays it out. Women use "womenspeak" and men are just supposed to understand. If they don't? Well then they just are obtuse and lazy! Of course we think it is just nagging or an idle threat made in the heat of an argument, when she threatens divorce, then gives or accepts an apology and proceeds as if nothing has changed- for years!
One of the things that I continually see in so many posts by women is the underlying assumption that men should just understand. And part of the basis of that are the misunderstandings that women have about men. We are NOT neanderthal cavemen who only want sex and food, despite popular belief. We are just as multi-faceted and have just as many needs and wants as any woman does. We just never get any credit for it.
Most men are just as much "keepers of the relationship" as women are, and for many of those men, much more so than the woman. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many who "grapple" with it as it ends. Grapple does even begin to describe the devastation many men feel as a marriage ends.


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## jb02157

Ynot said:


> The first part may be true. The second part not so much. These women who agonize over leaving their marriage - why don't they do a better job of communicating? Spotthedeaddog has a post just before yours where he basically lays it out. Women use "womenspeak" and men are just supposed to understand. If they don't? Well then they just are obtuse and lazy! Of course we think it is just nagging or an idle threat made in the heat of an argument, when she threatens divorce, then gives or accepts an apology and proceeds as if nothing has changed- for years!
> One of the things that I continually see in so many posts by women is the underlying assumption that men should just understand. And part of the basis of that are the misunderstandings that women have about men. We are NOT neanderthal cavemen who only want sex and food, despite popular belief. We are just as multi-faceted and have just as many needs and wants as any woman does. We just never get any credit for it.
> Most men are just as much "keepers of the relationship" as women are, and for many of those men, much more so than the woman. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many who "grapple" with it as it ends. Grapple does even begin to describe the devastation many men feel as a marriage ends.


You make some very good point here. I find that women want something or when they say that they have been communicating their issue all along, they haven't. I seldom see in any posts here that when the women supposedly were voicing their corncerns about the marriage it was acknowleged, understood and purposefully not addressed and ignored. 

As for women being the keeper of the relationship, I find that hysterical. Men generally pay for the house, cars, groceries...etc. Where is the relationship without that?


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## cbnero

Yes, because hardly any cheater would ever lie to their spouse when confronted with having an affair - just 99.9% of them. If you want her back, do a hard 180. Or just cut your losses. So you're not perfect, like her sh!t don't stink. Why would you want to be with someone who cares so little for you? Start moving on without her is the best advice, and never look back.


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## aine

SeparationAnxiety said:


> OK, I full on asked her last night whether she has ever cheated on me over the more than two decades we've been married and whether the divorce request leading to the impending separation was prompted by an affair of any sort.
> 
> She was very upset, almost to the point of tears and said absolutely not and how could I even think that. Yep, that moment was a step backward for improving the relationship, but it had to be done for my sanity at least. On the other hand, she did admit that being a guy, she could see how I could wonder about that. I responded saying, "yes, it's a guy thing."
> 
> I told her that the reason I asked point blank is because I've said many times over the years that I would never cheat on you and have never heard you explicitly say the same words back to me. Well, I feel much better now after hearing them. All of the EA/PA escapades you read about on this forum can make any man wonder.
> 
> I pretty much knew she wasn't having any sort of physical affair (at this time, at least), because I can fully account for practically 99.9% of her time these days (out of work, at least). Also, she often talks about male co-workers (by name, even) semi-hitting on her and I don't think she would be that direct if something was spiraling out of control with one of them.



A marriage is going downhill, wife wants out, it couldn't possibly be anything other than the W cheating, not the neglect and abandonment she has suffered for many years. Get your head out of your ass and take a long hard look at what you have done to her in the marriage! Women are not like men, don't think like men and don't think with a certain piece of their anatomy. Please! :surprise:


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## aine

jb02157 said:


> You make some very good point here. I find that women want something or when they say that they have been communicating their issue all along, they haven't. I seldom see in any posts here that when the women supposedly were voicing their corncerns about the marriage it was acknowleged, understood and purposefully not addressed and ignored.
> 
> *As for the women being the keeper of the relationship, I find that hysterical. Men generally pay for the house, cars, groceries...etc. Where is the relationship without that?[/QUOTE*]
> 
> This just highlights you missed the whole point. They are not talking about material maintenance, but emotional maintenance. There is a HUGE difference but I guess you don't get that?


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## sokillme

SeparationAnxiety said:


> I will admit, the vast majority if not all my changes are based around me being married to her. I am totally going about it from that perspective, but I do sense that any positive improvements in me will carry over even if I fail.
> 
> As for what do I want to change in myself? I want to be a good caring and loving husband to her and a better father to the kids.
> 
> But, what does that mean? Well, quite frankly I don't know, but I am reading books to help clue me in. Women do not come with an instruction manual when you marry them. Men are different from women and without guidance, we all make mistakes. Some of us learn from them, some of us do not. Since I am open to "study" at this point, I think I can rectify my inadequacies over time. At least I am going to try my best.


Men and woman are different to a point. But what you are talking about is just common sense. When you are married you need to spend time with your wife. Your relationship is like a garden if you don't water it, it will die. She needs to be your priority. She is your wife! 

How were you when you first met. How did you court her.


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## sokillme

spotthedeaddog said:


> Well said.
> 
> Just to point out though... most women use "womenspeak" in their trying to communicate with their husbands.
> Placing two glasses on the dinner table slightly further apart than they were yesterday (a "clear signal" that we're drifting apart) type behavior just doesn't cut it. Try a large sign "you're sleeping on the couch tonight", with "how to save your marriage book" on top of a pile of blankets, with a note nailed to front saying "This for you" <- or if subtle isn't really "your way", try email with "Your marriage is in trouble, only you can save it. do it before it is too late" (please use that exact quote. preferrable at least 20 times in the single email. and from your own account (not your girlfriends).
> 
> - Oh - while I remember... if you don't want your future husband to "act like a little boy" then don't spend your entire relationship/marriage/social-contract-time trying to emasculate him !!!!!!


You need to meet some better women. Plus she should have to speak to you at all. You should be watching for this stuff yourself. That is what a husband is supposed to do.


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## sokillme

Ynot said:


> The first part may be true. The second part not so much. These women who agonize over leaving their marriage - why don't they do a better job of communicating? Spotthedeaddog has a post just before yours where he basically lays it out. Women use "womenspeak" and men are just supposed to understand. If they don't? Well then they just are obtuse and lazy! Of course we think it is just nagging or an idle threat made in the heat of an argument, when she threatens divorce, then gives or accepts an apology and proceeds as if nothing has changed- for years!
> One of the things that I continually see in so many posts by women is the underlying assumption that men should just understand. And part of the basis of that are the misunderstandings that women have about men. We are NOT neanderthal cavemen who only want sex and food, despite popular belief. We are just as multi-faceted and have just as many needs and wants as any woman does. We just never get any credit for it.
> Most men are just as much "keepers of the relationship" as women are, and for many of those men, much more so than the woman. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many who "grapple" with it as it ends. Grapple does even begin to describe the devastation many men feel as a marriage ends.


Again why does that even have to communicated. I have a state of the union about every 3 months or so. I ask, how are we doing? I pay attention when she is telling me about her day. I know her moods better then she does herself. You know why, because she is a prize to me. I make it my business to know. If she seems off I say, hey what's up, you seem off? 

From a guys perspective it's like having a sports car (not calling your wife a sports car) you know when the engine doesn't sound right, or when it isn't responding right. Same thing in your marriage, you should be in-tune to her moods and her way. If you aren't then you aren't doing it right. 

You are her husband, you set the tone of the whole marriage.


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## *Deidre*

It seems that maybe your wife has lost respect for you. Once you gain her respect back, I have a feeling her 'love' will return for you. But, I will say this...don't try hard at this, if you are only trying hard out of fear of losing her. Fear of not knowing what life might be like without her and the marriage. That isn't a reason to try. If you truly love her, and want to salvage things, that is awesome. But, if you are doing a major clean up simply because you are too afraid of what life might look like without her, that is not awesome. You both might like life better without the other...since you've ignored her for years, I guess I don't understand what has suddenly changed on your part...her wanting a divorce has suddenly caused you to be madly in love with your wife? 

These are things you need to really ponder, because if she stays with you...and you did all this to avoid a divorce and fear of the unknown, then you will be right back where you are, a year from now. Sorry for your angst, I hope things get better, either way.


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## Camilne

Well my husband hasn't cheated. And he seems so impossible at times. The amount of times I've mentally packed his bags! But I am going to persist in this marriage because I know in the end it will be worth it. He has lied, hurt me, been immature, selfish. Really hurt my feelings, been neglectful etc etc, but the night is still young. He does see the error of his ways, but change is a process. It is difficult at times I feel like I have three children not two sometimes. And he tells me if I treated him the way he treats me sometimes he would have left. I'm not a push over, I could get someone else if I really wanted, but I see the potential of him to be a great husband. I didn't read the whole thread but not all women are so unforgiving. 

Sent from my VF695 using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

jb02157 said:


> When your spouse is not happy and they say they aren't, chances are it's not an idle threat. You have to do something right away to get things right. I'm sorry that this has happened and it's not right for a woman to be able to walk away when ever she wants and take half of you're money with her, but this is marriage these days, you're future rides the whim of your spouse.


So your position is that it shouldn't matter how you treat your wife, she shouldn't be able to dump you?

As for men paying for everything, that's quite a generalization. I make more then hb and as such pay more of the bills.

By your logic i can treat him however I want but he shouldn't be able to dump me. 

Is that your position?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jb02157

lifeistooshort said:


> So your position is that it shouldn't matter how you treat your wife, she shouldn't be able to dump you?
> 
> As for men paying for everything, that's quite a generalization. I make more then hb and as such pay more of the bills.
> 
> By your logic i can treat him however I want but he shouldn't be able to dump me.
> 
> Is that your position?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's my position: It's really not that fair for a man who is making most of or all the money in the household to have is wife just dump him for no apparent reason and expect to get half of all the family's money. All to often I see that if a SAHM has a problem with something see feels that it's her perogative to just dump her husband. He all of the sudden has to live on 30% of his income and will find he is all of the sudden living in poverty, while his wife has his house, children and money. 

This situation is different than yours since your husband at least contributes something to the family income whereas a SAHM does not. This results all the money for two families coming from one income with one person working while only allowed to keep himself barely afloat financially and the other receiving money and a place to live without having to do a darned thing.


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## DustyDog

SeparationAnxiety said:


> This did not happen all of a sudden, she had been threatening it for years. I have been a fool and ignored these threats.


One conclusion I drew very early on - a "threat" is an ultimatum, and they always, to me, feel like someone attempting to exert absolute control. I have never seen ultimatums improve any relationships, whether marital, friendship or at work.

My now-ex (non-wife LTR) had her form of ultimatum: "If you don't like things the way they are, then leave, because I am incapable of changing the way I do things". This was a response to my request for her to please greet me in the morning with something other than a verbal attack. Things never got better...she would not discuss it. I finally left her, and did it by saying "I accept your offer. I am leaving."

Learned a lot about me and humanity over the next 5 years, married a woman who can not verbally attack even in jest, who is soft-spoken, gentle, and apparently in fear of anything not going her way...which is why she's so reserved. Didn't know that. When we encountered our first bumps in the road, I attemped to negotiate/find out her side of things, but she could not see any path forward if it was not exactly her way. Her ultimatums weren't direct, but of the form "I'm not the marrying type. I can't life this way. I should let you live as you wish and not cause you any more pain. I hate divorce, but I'm going to do it for you." An ultimatum even if it appears she's attempting to blame herself.

I got us into counseling real fast, the counselor heard our stories and conversed with her about how that really was an ultimatum and how they simply don't work and that my wife needed to decide if she wanted to work on it, or insist on her own way, because she could not do both. She seemed to want to work on it - but then got busy so we never saw each other again. Now, in counseling again, (15 years later) it seems that once she could not use her favorite tool (the ultimatum), she chose to not communicate at all.

You guys have a lot of baggage. I've seen this situation resolve - my parents were on the brink for 20 years, something finally "clicked" in both of them, and they are almost to the 70th anniversary. But IMO you need outside help.


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## Begin again

I wholeheartedly agree with the posters who have said that you need to work on you for you. If you do it for her, for your marriage, for your kids, it won't stick. Too easy to fall back to old habits and get comfortable, as was already pointed out.

I will say you need to get on this NOW. No dilly dallying. No saying l will get to it when I get to it. Your wife has already waited longer than she should have, as evidenced by her desire to end the marriage. Get busy on you and don't stop until you know you'd win her if you were on a first date. That's the measuring stick. Would she date you now as you are/treat her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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