# The Fog - To Engage or Not Engage



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

When they are talking bat sh!t crazy nonsense, what's the best approach? How do you respond to the fog? Say nothing and walk away? Roll your eyes, shake your head? Is telling them they are nuts just getting sucked into the drama? Or does getting confrontational give you strength? What is "standing ground" in that situation?

I'm speaking about in marriages which were previously drama-free, and the WS has become an alien.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Answer honestly.. they hate that.

"You were never there for me when I needed you"
A: and he was? When you needed what, to go to a motel room? Then remind them of who married them, bought a house for them, gave them children, raised those children, played with them, bought them food and clothes.. "who loved you and cherished you, while you were giving yourself to another and lying to my face about it.. It sounds more like you weren't there for me, because you were there for him. You can bulsh.... yourself, but now that I know what you've been up to, you're done bulls... me".

Etc..

All the BS can be countered with facts and logic and honesty...


If they're still in deep:


I love him:

A: Do you two have bills together, children, can you picture yourself spending days and days with him? Do you think you can trust him? He cheats you know. Know how you lie to him, fill him with BS.. well he does the same to you. You don't even really know who he is.

Etc..


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You remain cool and collected.

If they start re-writing history just point out they are wrong because XYZ while you remain calm.

Let them talk as much sh*t as they want. Are you getting divorced?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Good point too about staying calm.. Don't scream it, just tell it like it is.

"He makes me feel alive"

Like I did when we first dated, when you get bored with him will you need someone new to make you feel alive or is this the last one?

"We're just friends"

Like we were when we first dated? Do you have sex with all your friends or just him?

Etc...

Let me know if you need specific answers to specific bull, I charge 25c an answer. for my services.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Being in the fog is not different than any from of indoctrination and usually the only way to get someone out of it is to let them hit rock bottom. The more you challenge them the more they will dig in so don't the truth is self evident and it will be there to greet them when there at the bottom and the fog lifts the real question however is should you be there to help them or let them go.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

That's an interesting approach Xakulak. But what do you do in the moment?

I found some of the stuff being said so outrageous that you don't even have a way to process it. You're simply stunned that someone could say something that nutty. There's not even time to process a good answer at times. 

But yeah, the above ones are good ones.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

180.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A: Do you two have bills together, children, can you picture yourself spending days and days with him? Do you think you can trust him? He cheats you know. Know how you lie to him, fill him with BS.. well he does the same to you. You don't even really know who he is.

^ This is a good one. I wonder what kind of response that gets. Especially when they claim they never lied to each other?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

WhiteRaven said:


> 180.


Well, for those of us who can't 180 properly. Who are forced to be under the same roof on occasion. And who are going crazy with emotions. It's like trying to shut off a fire hose with your bare hands.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

staystrong said:


> That's an interesting approach Xakulak. But* what do you do in the moment*?



I think WhiteRaven hit the nail on the head with the 180 if she say this, that, and other I would say that unfortunate and would you like muffin you kill them with kindness and show you moved on


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

staystrong said:


> Well, for those of us who can't 180 properly. Who are forced to be under the same roof on occasion. And who are going crazy with emotions. It's like trying to shut off a fire hose with your bare hands.


I followed a simplified version of 180 -

I thought of my WW as a street hooker who was trying to tempt me. Fighting with her was foolishness. To win I had to get down to her level. Politely ignoring her was the best way to deal with her. Whenever emotions like love, lust, sympathy, pity, affection arose in me, I forced myself to remember the texts and the VAR recordings. It made me furious but made it clear to me again why I was ignoring her. 

If you can't be furious at her, you can't implement 180.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

There may be nothing you can do except to ignore it. You have have to remember the FOG becomes the "truth" to the person who is in it. Especially if they have been in it for a long time. In most cases it is the only way they can live with themselves, it justifies everything they have done and everything they are doing. It is so strong sometimes that convincing them that what they are doing, thinking, saying is like convincing them there name isn't their name, or the sky isn't blue, they just won't believe you. It usually takes some major shock to clear the fog. My WW completely broke down when she came out of the fog. I almost called 911 because I had no idea what to do.

Note: I'm a recovering alcoholic, so I know all about the fog! I lived in it for 25 years and *nothing* my wife did brought me out of my fog (or could have) except when she left me, and even that wasn't enough on its own.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

HarryDoyle said:


> There may be nothing you can do except to ignore it. You have have to remember the FOG becomes the "truth" to the person who is in it. Especially if they have been in it for a long time. In most cases it is the only way they can live with themselves, it justifies everything they have done and everything they are doing. It is so strong sometimes that convincing them that what they are doing, thinking, saying is like convincing them there name isn't their name, or the sky isn't blue, they just won't believe you. It usually takes some major shock to clear the fog. My WW completely broke down when she came out of the fog. I almost called 911 because I had no idea what to do.
> 
> Note: I'm a recovering alcoholic, so I know all about the fog! I lived in it for 25 years and *nothing* my wife did brought me out of my fog (or could have) except when she left me, and even that wasn't enough on its own.


What brought her out of her fog?


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

staystrong said:


> What brought her out of her fog?


 If I knew the whole answer to that I could bottle it, sell it and become rich. Like everything else in life it was a combination of things and everyone is different, but the main reason was the guilt. Her A went on for over a year and in her case there was no romantic connection (no "I love you's" etc..) to intensify the fog. There was multiple reasons why she cheated and over time a lot of the reasons started breaking down (because they were false). She is a Christian and even Christians can do really bad things sometimes and eventually she was forced to make a choice between what she believed and what she was doing and it started tearing her up inside. I had no idea what was really going on so I started doing the “wrong thing", I was being real supportive and loving. That just made the guilt worse because she actually started to believe I really did love her. She stopped seeing the other man but it really didn't help. And then a friend of hers who knew about my wife's PA accused her off trying to pick up on her husband because there was a number of texts between the two. Her friend called me with her suspicion and when I confronted my wife about it (another wrong move) she totally broke down, so much so that it scared me. She denied having anything to do with her friend's husband (the true) but she was a total wreck for a couple of days. Then on D-day she was acting really strange, I hugged her and told her I loved her and she totally broke down. She confessed everything. She said she was sure I already knew and didn't want me to leave her. 

It's funny how being falsely accused of having an affair that she wasn't having was the straw that broke the camel's back and made her realize what she had become and how her friends saw her. She was sure that the world was coming down around her. Read Edgar Allen Poe's "The Tell tale Heart". She actually already sarted to seek help through a church support group and that also had a lot to do with bringing her out of the fog. She was someone who did something totally against her beliefs and it eventually caught up with her. I'm sorry there is no easy answer, I wish I understood it better myself.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

staystrong said:


> What brought her out of her fog?


I can speak to mine on this one..

Not accepting the bull, having her leave the house the first time I caught her in a new lie.. No longer had the comfort of our big home, family support, loving husband.. had her mom and her moms Omhusband and an air matress. Bagged up clothes, tossed the undergarments and changed locks on the doors. Bought a new bed and sheets and such..

Called the OMs girlfriend and sugar momma and told her that her boyfriend has been cheating on her for years with my wife. That kept him busy.

Not taking any crap as far as gaslighting, blameshifting or trickle truthing.. Don't accept "I don't remember" or anything like that for an answer. If she says "I thought you didn't love me", tell her that her cheating says that she didn't love you, she has it backwards.. 

To even attempt R, you need total transparency, NC with OM, STD tests, new job, whatever it takes..

You can rebuild trust and intimacy through honesty, and that's difficult to believe you're getting from someone that betrayed you in such a horrible way. It's not something you get over in a week or two, the experts say 2 to 5 years, so I'm being patient. I'd say the love for my wife took a shot from being a 98 out of 100 to being about a 36 out of 100 right now.. not sure it's climbing or if it's leveled off.

Basically, to end my rant... You need honesty, and if you feel you're still getting bull, you need to move on. Start the divorce, split... let her go to the other side of the rainbow and see how green the grass is over there with the unicorns and butterflies.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

HarryDoyle said:


> If I knew the whole answer to that I could bottle it, sell it and become rich. Like everything else in life it was a combination of things and everyone is different, but the main reason was the guilt. Her A went on for over a year and in her case there was no romantic connection (no "I love you's" etc..) to intensify the fog. There was multiple reasons why she cheated and over time a lot of the reasons started breaking down (because they were false). She is a Christian and even Christians can do really bad things sometimes and eventually she was forced to make a choice between what she believed and what she was doing and it started tearing her up inside. I had no idea what was really going on so I started doing the “wrong thing", I was being real supportive and loving. That just made the guilt worse because she actually started to believe I really did love her. She stopped seeing the other man but it really didn't help. And then a friend of hers who knew about my wife's PA accused her off trying to pick up on her husband because there was a number of texts between the two. Her friend called me with her suspicion and when I confronted my wife about it (another wrong move) she totally broke down, so much so that it scared me. She denied having anything to do with her friend's husband (the true) but she was a total wreck for a couple of days. Then on D-day she was acting really strange, I hugged her and told her I loved her and she totally broke down. She confessed everything. She said she was sure I already knew and didn't want me to leave her.
> 
> It's funny how being falsely accused of having an affair that she wasn't having was the straw that broke the camel's back and made her realize what she had become and how her friends saw her. She was sure that the world was coming down around her. Read Edgar Allen Poe's "The Tell tale Heart". She actually already sarted to seek help through a church support group and that also had a lot to do with bringing her out of the fog. She was someone who did something totally against her beliefs and it eventually caught up with her. I'm sorry there is no easy answer, I wish I understood it better myself.


You mention how her friends saw her.. 

My wife at one point told me something to the effect that everyone at her job (that she left) didn't need to know. I told her that she's delusional if she didn't think everyone in her company knew already. That she's not that stupid, not only did they know, but I reminded her of how she always had conflicts with a couple ladies, and she led me to believe that they were aholes... I told her, they must have hated you because they could see what you were, how you were, and who you were. I'm guessing they weren't aholes like you led me to believe, they just didn't like you because they knew you were a shady character. You didn't deserve any respect or to be treated nicely, you were acting like a tramp. 

You don't have a workplace affair for years and nobody knows... A good example of why they call it 'fog'... any sane person can see this clearly, but the cheater while cheating fools themselves into thinking 'everyone thinks I'm desirable and wonderful, I have two men that love me' and the truth is everyone thinks you're a cheater and a low life.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I say don't engage. Leave their a$$ in the fog and move on. Too many women out there that would treat you right to waste time on one who is acting simple. Why fight for somebody that does you wrong? Its their job to fight for you. When I strayed I fought for about a year to prove to my wife that I was a changed man.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Honestly, there is no way to get them out of the chemical high they get from new love, i.e.: new sex with a new different adventurous unknown partner. It's all rainbows and butterflies. It's one of the very best high's in the world. It's stronger than heroine or any other drug. It's there for a reason and natural. The very best way is to stop it before it turns sexual. 

The best way to make an effort to change or stop that affair, is to somehow get the wayward to lose respect for their AP. All information would have to point to truth or things that have enough truth in them, that the wayward believes them and you as the informer, cannot be sued. 

Good luck. It's easier once the honeymoon part of the relationship is over. It's too late, then.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Honestly, there is no way to get them out of the chemical high they get from new love, i.e.: new sex with a new different adventurous unknown partner. It's all rainbows and butterflies. It's one of the very best high's in the world. It's stronger than heroine or any other drug. It's there for a reason and natural. The very best way is to stop it before it turns sexual.
> 
> The best way to make an effort to change or stop that affair, is to somehow get the wayward to lose respect for their AP. All information would have to point to truth or things that have enough truth in them, that the wayward believes them and you as the informer, cannot be sued.
> 
> Good luck. It's easier once the honeymoon part of the relationship is over. It's too late, then.


True about the honeymoon part.. it's easier if the long term affair has run the course, and they are now at the bored same-old-same-old stage with each other.. The AP might not look so shiny and new at that point, they start to see the scabs and wrinkles.

The question remains.. something so addictive, and powerful.. how long before they meet someone new, and desire that feeling again. Once they've known it...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

xakulax said:


> Being in the fog is not different than any from of indoctrination and usually the only way to get someone out of it is to let them hit rock bottom. ...


I agree with this. But rather than just let her hit rock bottom on her own accord and timeline.... I sort of gave her that push and threw rocks at her down there since she insisted on digging it deeper.

Basically... you know this person. You know where their soft spots are, their hopes and dreams, and how they envision their life. Use it against them using facts. Like my wife wanted me to be her "best friend". I used the fact that if you treat a person like dirt, it is highly probable they won't feel friendly towards you. So how the hell did she think her approach would ever form that friendship she claims she wants...

And just continue on and on and on. You know a ton and also know where they are acting entirely different than someone who wants "this". Show them how they are destroying their own dreams and hopes. Attack them on self-esteem issues you know they have instead of being your supportive self. Shred and rip at that fog until they look in the mirror and see their true selves as they chose to be. It's not a pretty reflection.

And you; It isn't easy. You have to remove that filter and stop trying to protect them. You have to stop being the rescuer. By all means, continue to love that person, but just recognize part of love is caring about whom they are becoming and you, more than anyone else, has the best chance of being influential enough that you can plant seeds and make them question the road they are on.

Kick her hard and mercilessly into the hole she dug. Don't help her climb out. She needs to learn to do that on her own, otherwise she'll always look for outsiders to come and rescue her.

She might hate you by the end. But that's not really something that should bother you. If you care about her or even what kind of mother she'll be, you want her to be a better person even if that means she hates that you forced her to scratch her own way out doing nothing more than encouraging her and cutting any outside ropes from others.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

russell28 said:


> True about the honeymoon part.. it's easier if the long term affair has run the course, and they are now at the bored same-old-same-old stage with each other.. The AP might not look so shiny and new at that point, they start to see the scabs and wrinkles.
> 
> *The question remains.. something so addictive, and powerful.. how long before they meet someone new, and desire that feeling again. Once they've known it...*


It all depends on what happened. If it worked out well for them and they have no regrets, the chances are high they will do it again. It's really pretty simple. We just don't want to believe it. 

The thing is, with each, "success", their new partner will have to be even better than the last, i.e.: more money, social status, power, intelligence, and always on top of their game. It can be a living hell for the new partner. They have essentially married a spoiled child.

Disclaimer: Unless there truly was some abuse or something terrible going on. Either way, separation, and straightening out any wrinkles through therapy in your own life, because of that bad relationship, and then moving forward with more serious relationships, seems more healthy than any affair. But, that's the ideal and we are human.

Edit: I wanted to add this. The opposite of this is for the new partner to constantly make it look like the old one is trying to get in touch with or fight for the old relationship. The AP will continue the assault of disrespect of the old partner, so that the hate and disgust for them deepens. It's difficult to say the very least and why many folks just give up. I don't actually have a solution other than: Just let them go:


morituri
Member



Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,463 Just Let Them Go
________________________________________
I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.
Quote:
I really enjoyed a discussion that cropped up in the manosphere yesterday starting with the inimitable Dalrock, and slowly expanded by one of his anonymous readers, and then by Hawaiian Libertarian.

It started with Dalrock’s development of a metaphor of marriage as a dining experience:

" I don’t have time to really do this justice, but I’ll take a quick shot at it. I share your view in wanting marriage for both men and women. This is why I write on the topics I write about. Marriage is too essential to turn our backs on, even though it has suffered great violence from the culture, the state, and a treacherous church. The analogy I’ll offer isn’t perfect but hopefully gets the basic idea across.

Those of us who are happily married are sitting in a fine restaurant, enjoying our meals. Outside are a crowd of would be patrons, but the restaurant is full and they won’t be seated. However, the crowd outside decides to make the best of it. They set up a grill and hold an impromptu cookout. Some number of them comment that they wouldn’t trade sitting in our boring stuffy restaurant for the experience of cooking and eating in the outdoors with the company of the rest of the crowd.

While I think the restaurant is better, I’m not going to call out to them, to try to convince them that they really should regret that they didn’t get a table. Instead I’m going to focus what influence I have on making that option available to more diners. I’ll try to get the restaurant down the street to start following the health codes so they don’t poison people. But to do that first I have to take on the corrupt health inspector (the church), etc.

Besides, who am I to tell the people making the best of the cookout that they don’t really enjoy being there more than they would enjoy being in the restaurant? Not all of us have the same tastes. Given the lack of options, I truly hope that the cookout is what makes them happy. If someone wants to know how they can get a table I’ll offer the best advice I have on finding one, including advice on avoiding restaurants like the one down the street.

The lack of open tables at the restaurant is visible in the data I’ve shown here, both in delayed marriage trends by women and in the kicking of fathers out of the home. Not everyone gets this “food poisoning”, but those who do can suffer immensely."
Which was then expanded by an Anonymous reader:
Quote:
"Dalrock, although your analogy is interesting, it is incomplete. You need to include the whole picture.

And that is, some number of couples in the restaurant suddenly leave; the woman stands up, shrieks to the management that her escort is simply beastly, and a couple of pug-ugly bouncers come, rough him up, take his wallet, beat the snot out of him, and throw him out the back door into the alley. She stays for a while, paying for the meal out of his wallet, and then slowly walks out the front door, to cruise around the barbecue grills for a while.

And everyone pretends nothing just happened, although some murmur of “what did HE do?” floats ’round the room. For some odd reason, there are more and more empty tables in this restaurant. Fewer customers are coming in the front door. Business is down.

The restaurant manager worries out loud that his business isn’t going well. But his bouncers continue to beat, rob, and eject men any time a woman demands it. Those men at the barbecue grills? More than a few of them used to eat in the restaurant. But after getting beaten up, robbed, beaten up some more and thrown away in to the alley, they don’t much care for restaurant food any more. They regard it as too expensive, one way or another.

There is another group circulating around the barbecue grills, and out into the street. These are women who alternate between snacking at the barbecue grills, and importuning men to take them into the restaurant. They insist they only want good restaurant food, as they wipe the grease from the barbeque off of their fingers.

Some of these women used to eat in the restaurant, but decided to have their escorts beaten and robbed. For some reason they find it a bit more difficult to get an escort back into the restaurant than previously was the case.

There’s also a shadowy crowd out beyond the barbecue grills that most diners in the restaurant can’t see. This crowd is almost entirely men. Many of them are young, but some are middle-aged or even old. No way they get into the restaurant. Although some of them used to eat there, before they got beaten up, robbed, and thrown into the alley. And nobody wants them too close to the barbecue grills, either. The women who eat at the grills and want into the restaurant scorn them. These men exist in the shadows, chewing on a dried out piece of jerky.

Every once in a while, some fat guy from the restaurant management strolls outside, and hollers at all the men in the street: “HEY ! Why don’t you Man UP and find a nice lady to escort into this restaurant? The food is great! And if you get beaten, robbed and thrown in the alley it’s all your fault! C’mon in! Be a man!” Most of the women stand with him, and echo his “Man UP!” call, ululating in chorus. The barbecue crowd jeers at him. The men in the shadows gnaw on their dried out jerky and stare at him in utter silence. He goes back into the failing restaurant and tells everyone inside how great the service is. As he speaks, another male patron is beaten, robbed, and as he’s being ejected out the back door he grabs a knife in the kitchen, then stabs himself in the heart and dies in the alley. No one in the restaurant one says a word, everyone looks away and pretends nothing just happened.

I believe this fills out the scenario a bit. How one views the restaurant depends on where one stands. Sitting in a cozy booth in the back, with family all around, the restaurant is a great place. Standing outside by the barbecue grills, the restaurant may look too expensive, the dress code too stuffy. From across the street in the shadows the restaurant looks good, but seeing man after man being beaten, robbed, and thrown away into a dumpster-strewn alley leads to a different perspective on the restaurant than one might get in the cozy back booth.

The view from the backside of the restaurant, the alley? Standing outside, with empty pockets, black eyes, and a broken nose & fingers, the restaurant is a crooked deal, run by thieves, cheats, and liars.

Perspective makes a difference"
A Gift for My Daughter
by Harry Browne
December 25, 1966 
(This article was originally published as a syndicated newspaper column, dedicated to my 9-year-old daughter.)
It’s Christmas and I have the usual problem of deciding what to give you. I know you might enjoy many things — books, games, clothes.
But I’m very selfish. I want to give you something that will stay with you for more than a few months or years. I want to give you a gift that might remind you of me every Christmas.
If I could give you just one thing, I’d want it to be a simple truth that took me many years to learn. If you learn it now, it may enrich your life in hundreds of ways. And it may prevent you from facing many problems that have hurt people who have never learned it.
The truth is simply this:
No one owes you anything.
Significance
How could such a simple statement be important? It may not seem so, but understanding it can bless your entire life.
No one owes you anything.
It means that no one else is living for you, my child. Because no one is you. Each person is living for himself; his own happiness is all he can ever personally feel.
When you realize that no one owes you happiness or anything else, you’ll be freed from expecting what isn’t likely to be.
It means no one has to love you. If someone loves you, it’s because there’s something special about you that gives him happiness. Find out what that something special is and try to make it stronger in you, so that you’ll be loved even more.
When people do things for you, it’s because they want to — because you, in some way, give them something meaningful that makes them want to please you, not because anyone owes you anything.
No one has to like you. If your friends want to be with you, it’s not out of duty. Find out what makes others happy so they’ll want to be near you.
No one has to respect you. Some people may even be unkind to you. But once you realize that people don’t have to be good to you, and may not be good to you, you’ll learn to avoid those who would harm you. For you don’t owe them anything either.
Living your Life
No one owes you anything.
You owe it to yourself to be the best person possible. Because if you are, others will want to be with you, want to provide you with the things you want in exchange for what you’re giving to them.
Some people will choose not to be with you for reasons that have nothing to do with you. When that happens, look elsewhere for the relationships you want. Don’t make someone else’s problem your problem.
Once you learn that you must earn the love and respect of others, you’ll never expect the impossible and you won’t be disappointed. Others don’t have to share their property with you, nor their feelings or thoughts.
If they do, it’s because you’ve earned these things. And you have every reason to be proud of the love you receive, your friends’ respect, the property you’ve earned. But don’t ever take them for granted. If you do, you could lose them. They’re not yours by right; you must always earn them.
My Experience
A great burden was lifted from my shoulders the day I realized that no one owes me anything. For so long as I’d thought there were things I was entitled to, I’d been wearing myself out —physically and emotionally — trying to collect them.
No one owes me moral conduct, respect, friendship, love, courtesy, or intelligence. And once I recognized that, all my relationships became far more satisfying. I’ve focused on being with people who want to do the things I want them to do.
That understanding has served me well with friends, business associates, lovers, sales prospects, and strangers. It constantly reminds me that I can get what I want only if I can enter the other person’s world. I must try to understand how he thinks, what he believes to be important, what hewants. Only then can I appeal to someone in ways that will bring me what I want.
And only then can I tell whether I really want to be involved with someone. And I can save the important relationships for those with whom I have the most in common.
It’s not easy to sum up in a few words what has taken me years to learn. But maybe if you re-read this gift each Christmas, the meaning will become a little clearer every year.
I hope so, for I want more than anything else for you to understand this simple truth that can set you free: no one owes you anything.


#15 (permalink)

morituri
Member



Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,463 Re: Just Let Them Go
________________________________________
Here are some more words of wisdom from another sage (definitely not me):

"Do not use these strategies as a manipulative tool to change what your spouse is doing. He/she will pick up on your motive and see through it. He/she will easily manipulate you back to where he/she wants you (wherever that was to make you predictable and controllable.)

You engage in these exercises and strategies because you want to for you. You know that this is the best way to live and at this point, be in relationship with your spouse. This is the best way for you to survive and retain integrity.

Here’s the kicker. A by-product of these efforts is usually dramatic changes on the part of your spouse. Don’t be surprised if he/she moves closer. Don’t be surprised if he/she does a double-take. Don’t be surprised if he/she decides to “work on the marriage.” But, don’t expect it!

1) Act Happy. Be as cheerful as possible. Be positive. Put on this behavior when you have contact with your spouse. Prepare yourself to act this way. Practice if need be. Be an actor, actress if need be. Fake it, if you must. Fake it til you truly do get to the point where you experience your life as positive. (It really is, you know!)

2) Get a life. Rekindle old hobbies or interests that you have discarded but still interest you. Try out new hobbies or interests. Think about what you really liked doing when you were 6 years old. Start doing that. (One coaching client “gave up dancing,” which was a passion, for her family and husband. Once she discovered his affair, she took it up again. She loved it. It was therapeutic. But, boy did he have a problem with it!).

3) Focus on 4 key words. Every day, every hour and every minute if need be, plaster your mind with these 4 life-saving words: I WILL MAKE IT! This becomes your mantra. Wake up with it. Put it on your mirror. Eat lunch with it. Go to sleep with it. Tell, convey in every which way to your spouse that you WILL MAKE IT. Say, “I will make it! I perfer to make it with you (if that is what you REALLY want), but if that doesn’t happen, I will make it without you. Either way, I want you to know that I will make it.” State with erect, confident body language, unblinking, direct eye contact and calm, firm, consistent tone of voice.

4) To-the-point small talk. Make conversations with your spouse brief and to the point. Talk only about the solutions to specific problems that need to be addressed, such a particular bills, household or children concerns. Let silence prevail if he/she wants to “hook” you into melodrama. Politely but firmly end such conversations.5) Tend to agree. Try to find the kernel of truth in what your spouse is saying and agree with it. Acknowledge it. He/she says, “I don’t love you
anymore.” You say, “It certainly seems that way. Thank you for your truthfulness.”He/she says, “I’m not sure what I want.” You say, “Yes, it must be confusing for you.” He/she says, “I’m thinking of moving out.” You say, “Do you have an idea of when you’re going to do that? Knowing would help me plan for my activities.”

6) Expand your social relationships, including those of the OPPOSITE SEX.Make new friends. Go to lunch. Surround yourself with interesting people who have the potential to care about you. Rekindle old friendships that have faded. With the
opposite sex? Yes! I’m not talking about a revenge affair or sleeping with someone. I’m not talking about dating for the purposes of forming a committed relationship, but to form true friendships(plural) and learning about you and how you relate, especially to those of the opposite sex.

7) Get sexy – in a healthy way. Get in shape. Lose weight. Run. Walk. Exercise. Eat right. Enjoy your body. Take supplements. Take extreme care of your body. Begin to feel healthy…and healthy is sexy. Focus on one of these tactics and begin now. Don’t wait."
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Lostwouthim, OmahaAngel, lonleyinlasvegas and 5 others like this.
__________________
"Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal." Robert A. Heinlein

Links


Quote:
Quote:
it is intended to show the was how much their own sleazy behavior is hurting their spouse.

And it works.

i still fail to see how a bs compromising their own integrity, values and morals is of any help to the bs. I know for myself, i could have never lowered my standards that way. I had way too much self-respect do this.

if showing that your life has real value to yourself regardless if your spouse doesn't believe this and moving on with your life and letting go of a cheating spouse and no longer waiting for someone to stop cheating on you isn't demonstrating integrity on your part, well i don't know what will.

What you don't realize (or possibly refuse to) is that waiting for your cheating spouse to return to you when they're actively involved in a extra marital affair with another person is in fact lowering your standards.

It communicates:
- i will be taken advantage of
- i am gullible
- i believe my spouse will come back to me after they've had their fun with another person
- it's ok for my spouse to cheat on me, i'll stand up for my marriage even if they've checked out
- i want someone who doesn't want me
- i will let my spouse choose when it's ok for them to come back to me
- i will allow this behavior to occur again in the future
- i don't respect myself enough to let go of people that don't value me or the relationship they have with me

in conclusion....
- i have low standards



Here is another link to a discussion of the fog. Don't know if it will work. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/54630-how-do-you-distinguish-being-love-vs-fog-2.html#post1033634"


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

staystrong said:


> What brought her out of her fog?


For my ex it was a combination of 3 things one weekend:
1. having to pay her own rent/bills for the first time
2. having me say no to her when she called asking me to pay for her lawyer so she could divorce me

... and, the kicker...

3. having me say no to her while I was blasting out to the coast with my new hot girlfriend (who became wife #2)

Nothing POs a cheating ex wife than you finding a hotter, younger model to willingly take care of business.


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## professor_panda (May 1, 2014)

russell28 said:


> The question remains.. something so addictive, and powerful.. how long before they meet someone new, and desire that feeling again. Once they've known it...


The "Fog" is a concept I have a hard time with. It's not some magical state of being that temporarily takes over the mind of a woman, only to drift away and never be seen again. 

Instead, what you're seeing is their true self. *Every woman is capable of this state*. Every one. What you're seeing are very primal needs coming out. Why are they coming out now? Few reasons: hormones, stresses, personal baggage... aaaand the one a lot of men don't like... *You really F'd up and didn't play the man role like you should have.* But, in my experience with dozens of men who have gone though this... it's usually a combination of all those things.

It hurts us dudes to see our woman go through this.. A LOT. Crushes us. They're women, dammit. Soft little flowers of awesome in a rough and tumble man world. Nope, sorry dude. They're human. They have needs and issues like any other. What you're witnessing is a very common manifestation of those needs not being filled.

So, when the "Fog" lifts, what you're seeing is another temporary masking of their primal state of mind. They just put the nice girl Halloween costume back on. It won't take long at all for something else to come along (like a man who pushes her buttons) and that costume comes right off.

In other words: ***** is broken. She's dead to you.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Men are more than capable of living in the fog, too.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

professor_panda said:


> The "Fog" is a concept I have a hard time with. It's not some magical state of being that temporarily takes over the mind of a woman, only to drift away and never be seen again.
> 
> Instead, what you're seeing is their true self. *Every woman is capable of this state*. Every one. What you're seeing are very primal needs coming out. Why are they coming out now? Few reasons: hormones, stresses, personal baggage... aaaand the one a lot of men don't like... *You really F'd up and didn't play the man role like you should have.* But, in my experience with dozens of men who have gone though this... it's usually a combination of all those things.
> 
> ...




The Fog is not concept it a reality it has many names and forms delusion of grandeur, flight of fancy, and one I have done research on the fog of war this is why I equate the affair fog to indoctrination or a mass delusion the WS deluded themselves in believing that what they have is not enough and are entitled to more this can be done by themselves or with the help of a third party.



The fog is no different then a mirage only the foolish run to it and few if any come out with what they want


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

marduk said:


> Nothing POs a cheating ex wife than you finding a hotter, younger model to willingly take care of business.


Quote of the day.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

professor_panda said:


> Instead, what you're seeing is their true self. *Every woman is capable of this state*. Every one. What you're seeing are very primal needs coming out. Why are they coming out now? Few reasons: hormones, stresses, personal baggage... aaaand the one a lot of men don't like... *You really F'd up and didn't play the man role like you should have.* But, in my experience with dozens of men who have gone though this... it's usually a combination of all those things.


Or you were playing the man role, but they wanted another man to role with.. because they were bored, liked the attention from someone other than the husband.. husband was doing or trying to do all the right things, but was unaware that he was in competition with someone else, so he couldn't get his full alpha on.. 

Is this what your wife told you, you didn't play the man role? Or is that line of crap from your MC?

What is the man role, go behind someones back and sleep with his wife? That's who she went with, some guy with a broken moral compass that told her some nice things, so she dropped her shorts for him. He's alpha?

If alpha means being a dbag then I sure hope I'm not an alpha.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Listen.

All human beings are wired to find other human beings (generally of the opposite sex) with high ranking genetic characteristics sexy and want to make babies with them.

There are different criteria and strategies for males and females, but we all have them. I'm happy in my marriage but I'm still attracted to the 22 year old blonde bombshell that I work with.

Maturity and intelligence and honour means that I won't try to sleep with her. But I'm sure way MORE attracted to the 22 year old hottie when I'm not getting what I want/need at home.

This doesn't excuse cheating. It's about the worst thing someone can do ever. I've lived it with my ex.

But I understand it now, and understanding yields power and insight.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Listen.
> 
> All human beings are wired to find other human beings (generally of the opposite sex) with high ranking genetic characteristics sexy and want to make babies with them.
> 
> ...


And.. your wife might be sexing you up to all ends, giving you everything you 'need'.. everything a man would want.. except, she can't be that blonde, and when the blonde says you look good today.. for some reason, it feels better than when your wife said the same thing this morning. You want the blonde.. eventually you give in and sleep with her.

Was it the fault of your wife, because she wasn't meeting your needs? Wasn't alpha enough?

Was it the blondes fault, for being sexy and young.. a hot young alpha female that no beta wife could compete with?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

My opinion is to never engage. I agree with letting go, forcing yourself to do it. Whether they are still living with you or have left and are still continuing the affair, disengage.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

professor_panda said:


> ... aaaand the one a lot of men don't like... *You really F'd up and didn't play the man role like you should have.* But, in my experience with dozens of men who have gone though this... it's usually a combination of all those things..


Disagree on that, but it’s more a point of perception. You probably have some vaguish notion of what that man role is for you. What you don’t get is it really doesn’t f’n matter what you think of yourself or how society sees you. It is what your wife is thinking of you when she makes those choices and you can’t be seen as ‘her kind of guy’ if she doesn’t want to see you that way. You will lose at that game.

The standards are set by the perceiver when judging someone. It has very little to do at all with what you are doing (assuming it’s within society norms) because I can assure you that no matter what it is, they can choose to see it as either a bad or good thing. Some, like adulterers, want to see the bad things so they don’t feel as guilty cheating on a bad person as much as they would a good one. They need you to be a bad spouse and even magnify your ‘sins’… Asking for help can be seen as manipulating and controlling. See how that works? And if that doesn’t… they just raise that bar on their expectations so you fail. Easy. Good people get cheated on. Even superstars get cheated on. 

And when you divorce… That new girlfriend wants to see you as a good thing. So they’ll seek it out too instead of trying to see you in a bad light. They don’t do that until they want someone else and need a reason to break up. And this isn’t gender specific either….. Everyone does this. 

The summary is; People are f’n looney. You control you. So you look in that mirror, judge yourself based on how you feel. She changed how she looked at you, you didn’t change, so it is not your fault nor even anything you can control beyond influence or advice.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

To shake a WS out of the fog is only done with shock and awe, File for divorce and have them served, stop paying their cell bill, expose the A to their family and friends. If you can expose that POS's to their BS.

Let the D papers and their families doing the fighting with them


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I say don't engage. Leave their a$$ in the fog and move on. Too many women out there that would treat you right to waste time on one who is acting simple. Why fight for somebody that does you wrong? Its their job to fight for you. When I strayed I fought for about a year to prove to my wife that I was a changed man.


Now you've got it figured out Dawg. If anyone is interested in getting them out of the "fog" (note 1), get you a place, leave them and dump the entire responsibility of the household, (kids, upkeep) in their lap. Screw hanging around and having to smell the stench of another guy while you do the lions share of the work while hoping she gets over having the hots for someone else.

Note 1. The fog is a euphemism for the spouse losing romantic interest in you and shifting it to someone else.


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## professor_panda (May 1, 2014)

russell28 said:


> Is this what your wife told you, you didn't play the man role? Or is that line of crap from your MC?


No, quite the contrary... everyone told me to love her to death. Therapists, friends, family... Keep being the nice guy. I got the moral high ground. I'm a sweetheart. 

Nah.. I saw the signs early on. I got the dozens of sh*t tests a day. I didn't pass. She was a broken woman and had all of her affair buttons pushed... one of those was a spineless worm of a husband who didn't keep her in line. 

If I actually had boundaries and a clear head, the marriage still would have ended... because I would've had eventually said "What am I doing with you again?" and left.. before she ran off and banged another guy.



russell28 said:


> If alpha means being a dbag then I sure hope I'm not an alpha.


No, it means putting your f'ing foot down and stop letting women walk all over you. It means not being afraid to say "Oh, well... there's the door b*tch" and knowing that she's one of about 100,000 women you could be with.

THAT'S the attitude the guy had that my wife and a lot of wives out there see and are attracted to. Combine that mentality with a broken woman... Ooof... not good.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

russell28 said:


> And.. your wife might be sexing you up to all ends, giving you everything you 'need'.. everything a man would want.. except, she can't be that blonde, and when the blonde says you look good today.. for some reason, it feels better than when your wife said the same thing this morning. You want the blonde.. eventually you give in and sleep with her.
> 
> Was it the fault of your wife, because she wasn't meeting your needs? Wasn't alpha enough?
> 
> Was it the blondes fault, for being sexy and young.. a hot young alpha female that no beta wife could compete with?


Not even close to what I meant.

Genetic predisposition to be attracted to certain traits does not imply a lack of fault for allowing yourself to break commitments.

Somehow, magically, I've gone through 2 marriages without cheating even once. Even when there's no strings attached by some young hottie. Even when I found out my first one was cheating on me, we were separated, and I had every right to.

What I am saying is that cheating is driven by three components:

Means, motive, and opportunity.

Means = someone can get away with it.

Motive = someone wants to do it.

Opportunity is self explanatory. 

I feel that motive is the key. If someone is motivated to cheat, they will find the means and opportunity. 

I *understand* that my spouse will be attracted to other dudes. She understands that I will be attracted to hot babes.

I use what traits she is attracted to and incorporate them into my behaviour and physicality. This increases her attraction to me and reduces her probability of cheating.

Just like she uses traits that I am attracted to to do the same thing.

You can stack the odds in your favour. Nothing makes it OK to break commitments and trust that someone else puts in you.

I understand *why* my ex cheated on me. I was a nice guy who was trying to please her and she was a nut case that could never be pleased. And I got complacent and trusted way, way too much.

This doesn't excuse her for cheating.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

professor_panda said:


> No, quite the contrary... everyone told me to love her to death. Therapists, friends, family... Keep being the nice guy. I got the moral high ground. I'm a sweetheart.


The only thing they missed giving you along with that advice is a straight razor to slit your throat with.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Not even close to what I meant.
> 
> Genetic predisposition to be attracted to certain traits does not imply a lack of fault for allowing yourself to break commitments.
> 
> ...


If you think that incorporate traits into your behaviour and physicality will prevent your spouse from cheating, then more power to you..

I like to be myself, and want a person to take me for how I am.. I don't want to put on a dog and pony show to impress my spouse to keep them from wanting to mount a finer looking pony for the rest of my life. 

I was willing to take my wife with all her flaws, to love every wrinkle and cherish every bit of her, as she is. I hoped for the same. Someone to care for me as I am, not someone I force myself to be, or pretend to be. 

I mean, if she likes something like a certain color shirt, I might go out of my way to wear it.. things like that, cool.. but I'm not going to pretend to be a rock star because my wife thinks a certain rock star is hot... Hey, my wife likes David Lee Roth, that's why I'm wearing the assless chaps today.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

staystrong said:


> When they are talking bat sh!t crazy nonsense, what's the best approach? How do you respond to the fog? Say nothing and walk away? Roll your eyes, shake your head? Is telling them they are nuts just getting sucked into the drama? Or does getting confrontational give you strength? What is "standing ground" in that situation?
> 
> I'm speaking about in marriages which were previously drama-free, and the WS has become an alien.


In those circumstances, it seems to me like they are trying to convince you that staying with them was a mistake. My advice - listen to them.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Engaging them, trying to set the record straight for as much as we want to do it, it’s a pointless exercise. They will not listen, they will just rearrange the story as you try to correct them to fit they are right in there heads. 

The more they defend themselves and justify the more they really believe the nonsense. They want the confrontation, they want to blame the BS and blame everyone but themselves. Why give them the opportunity? Deep down inside they know the “real story” already. The talks just to into more frustration for the BS in the end unfortunately. 

Really how many WS suddenly said, "you know your right I really did screw this all up!"


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

professor_panda said:


> The "Fog" is a concept I have a hard time with. It's not some magical state of being that temporarily takes over the mind of a woman, only to drift away and never be seen again.
> 
> Instead, what you're seeing is their true self. *Every woman is capable of this state*. Every one. What you're seeing are very primal needs coming out. Why are they coming out now? Few reasons: hormones, stresses, personal baggage... aaaand the one a lot of men don't like... *You really F'd up and didn't play the man role like you should have.* But, in my experience with dozens of men who have gone though this... it's usually a combination of all those things.
> 
> ...



I agree with this. 

Some blame can go on the BH but let's be real .. that man role can be unrealistic. A guy works hard to provide for his family, gets home on time to kiss his wife, help with kids and dinner, is loving, etc. SAHM's role become routine.. she feels unappreciated. Maybe she gets a job, feels more independent, starts attracting other men. H becomes expendable to a degree. 

Or W meets new friends who have different lifestyles.. single women, divorced women. Hears their stories, loves her own life but starts to think about what it would be like. Not pensively but the seed is there. H is living life normally, all is well. W meets a OM through these other friends, innocently at first. Meets more and more. Starts to feel an itch.

Or life is totally normal and happy for W, but she joins a gym. Her trainer is masculine, maybe a bit ****y. She's annoyed at first but becomes interested. You know it plays out. Insert art teacher, yoga instructor, whatever here. 

So yes, we'd like to think the sweet loving wife would run away from any temptation. Anyone on TAM knows the truth.. there is a ho inside each woman and if she doesn't know how to bring the ho out in her M, or doesnt feel it for her H, or doesn't want her H to have a certain image of her, then the A is on.

Even if she winds up with AP, the ho will shrink back in and the "good girl" costume comes back on, as you mentioned. This is the kind of stuff you need to know before getting married, unfortunately. Not all of us have had that experience.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

IMHO, "The Fog" is like trying to punch your way, "The Fog". I know that sounds crazy, but that's what it was like for me. The more you throw blows, the worse it gets. You hit nothing. Meaning you get nowhere. The harder you try, all you get is exhausted and nothing changes. You make zero progress. If you attempt to bring them out of the fog with confronting and hard core proof, that this way leads to truth and validation that they are headed for a cliff, the more they choose the other way. I realize this sounds a little off, but this was where I was at during. Nothing I did made sense to her and she was speaking in Cantonese to me. It's really a moot point, I did't really care if she was listening or not. But she got the point when I handed her the divorce papers. It's amazing how quick they finally see the error in their ways. That was the validation I was looking for, then came the attempted word "I'm so sorry" and so on. Unfortunately too little too late.


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## professor_panda (May 1, 2014)

So much good stuff in this post...



russell28 said:


> I like to be myself, and want a person to take me for how I am.. I don't want to put on a dog and pony show to impress my spouse to keep them from wanting to mount a finer looking pony for the rest of my life.
> 
> I was willing to take my wife with all her flaws, to love every wrinkle and cherish every bit of her, as she is. I hoped for the same. Someone to care for me as I am, not someone I force myself to be, or pretend to be.


Hello ME from a few years ago! Dude, I totally get it. But, that's just not reality. A woman's love is conditional. What do you provide for them? Do you push all her needs buttons on a regular basis? Do you consistently fail her tests? 

Women don't love like men do. 



russell28 said:


> I mean, if she likes something like a certain color shirt, I might go out of my way to wear it..


I wouldn't. I would say "Yeah, but I like this shirt better." It's those little tests... they add up.



russell28 said:


> things like that, cool.. but I'm not going to pretend to be a rock star because my wife thinks a certain rock star is hot... Hey, my wife likes David Lee Roth, that's why I'm wearing the assless chaps today.


Keep your appearance up. Be a confident man. Be the leader. Don't let her walk all over you. That's about 90% of it. No assless chaps needed. Not that there's anything wrong with assless chaps.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

professor_panda said:


> So much good stuff in this post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not saying she's telling me what to wear, I'm saying you do notice if they say "you look good in blue" because, I know my wife looks good in black, and have told her.. if she wears black, I notice her more.. 

If you have to play games and have tests to make you alpha, then I'm out too.. I hate playing mind games. Just be yourself. If someone says you look good in blue, and you care about them and you want them to think you look good, you might grab that blue shirt when you go out. If you don't want to, then you might grab the black one.. I have a black car, my wife hates black cars.. I don't care. I would only by a black car, it looks awesome in black with the big shiny wheels.. 

My wife had bigger issues than what color shirt I was wearing.. she came from a home where her mother married her OM (had a good family when we started dating in high school, mom cheated way later).. auntie, her friend, had a boyfriend she brought to our family events. Her grandma flaunted that she was always going out with her boyfriend, the true love of her life (who of course was also married).. cuckold grandpa didn't seem to care, just accepted his wife was another mans ho..

When things got rough for her, she had no issue with lying and cheating, it's what she learned as a child.. it's what her strong role models taught her was how you deal with relationship problems. Sounds simple, but it's true. We learn what we see growing up. Marriage seems to mean different things to different people, and for some people, an affair is an option regardless of if the husband is alpha or beta.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

russell28 said:


> If you have to play games and have tests to make you alpha, then I'm out too.. I hate playing mind games. Just be yourself.


Here's the thing Dawg. If you have to pretend to be an alpha, you ain't one. You don't have to be alpha to keep a woman in love with you. You just can't be a doormat and puzzy whipped. The first thing to go is her respect for you and when that happens its down hill from there. For me, I don't care what kind of problem she had growing up, if her mother run a ho house, and daddy was a cuckold bi. That was then and this is now. If for what ever reason she cannot be a faithful wife, she can hit the trail. If she decides to "take up" with the gym guy, neighbor, co worker, or who ever, I know I've done the best I can or wanted to do, and she will take nothing from me that I cannot replace in relatively short order. Like I told her, I'll love her forever, and if she decided I'm not numero uno, forever will be over and I'll be gone.


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## professor_panda (May 1, 2014)

russell28 said:


> If you have to play games and have tests to make you alpha, then I'm out too.. I hate playing mind games. Just be yourself.


Yep, you do. In dating, in marriage, at work... it's a constant push and pull. It's not a bad thing, it just is what it is. Human behavior 101. 

The line for nice guys that just want to be themselves is over there... they're the ones who have been wronged by women again and again and b*tch about wondering where all the good women are. They're the ones that women hate for not understanding them.

Time to get your GAME up to snuff, dude. Once you do, life is a blast, and you learn to love women all over again.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Yep, you do. In dating, in marriage, at work... it's a constant push and pull. It's not a bad thing, it just is what it is. Human behavior 101. 

The line for nice guys that just want to be themselves is over there... they're the ones who have been wronged by women again and again and b*tch about wondering where all the good women are. They're the ones that women hate for not understanding them.

Time to get your GAME up to snuff, dude. Once you do, life is a blast, and you learn to love women all over again._

Not worth the effort. I prefer to hang out with women, sleep with them if it goes that way and move on when it gets stupid. Life is to short to have to "game up". There are plenty of women out there who are fun, key is if you genuinely can take or leave them, they'll come after you. If a woman tires of me, I could not care less. I move on to the next one. No more emotional investments in women.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

You guys clearly don't know me or my situation.. 

I guess for some it isn't enough to be themselves, because they are lacking so they need to put up a front and pretend those things to fill the gaps.

Thanks for the lectures though, I'll try to be more defiant going forward. I'll say stuff like "yea, I like this shirt better"... I'll get chicks, they dig that. Nobody ever cheats on a guy that says things like that.

Have a great weekend.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

honcho said:


> Engaging them, trying to set the record straight for as much as we want to do it, it’s a pointless exercise. They will not listen, they will just rearrange the story as you try to correct them to fit they are right in there heads.
> 
> The more they defend themselves and justify the more they really believe the nonsense. They want the confrontation, they want to blame the BS and blame everyone but themselves. Why give them the opportunity? Deep down inside they know the “real story” already. The talks just to into more frustration for the BS in the end unfortunately.
> 
> Really how many WS suddenly said, "you know your right I really did screw this all up!"


Mine did eventually and she was a poster child of unremorseful. Use your knowledge of them against them. There’s something I call her ‘natural language’. Basically, you figure out how they seem to think the world works. So, my wife would scream, yell and demean a person until they are forced to see it her way… That’s basically how she thought it should work, but the reality is I’m not her, so I’d cave and pacify, but not believe or see it her way.

Regardless, that is how her synapses fire and it can work in reverse. So like the evil scientist I am, I experimented. I started speaking her ‘natural language’… I hit below the belt, fought dirty, called her names, and so forth just to get that message across that was ‘you are acting like a wh0re!’. And it began to take root…. 

But as mentioned before, you have to be distanced enough to remove that filter that spares her, and be willing to live with the consequences; not just positive, but airing some really hurtful things you can’t ‘take back’ like using her body issues as a weapon to prove that her OM just wanted to screw, but may not be all that physically attracted to her… “I mean, look at yourself. That’s why he never wanted to be seen in public with you as a couple and just invited you over to his place; it was embarrassing to him.” Seriously, just pull monkeys out of your butt and flow with it. It might be true; That’s her natural language and I know she loves her conspiracy stuff and seeing the worst possible explanation. 

Even the defense of ‘he told me he loves my ____” you can blow off; “He lies, just like you, to spare you and continue getting in your pants. You screwed him after that didn’t you? Boy you are dumb. ‘I love your smile’ and you drop your undies.” And flow it all together into non-stop bashing of her character. Don’t let her breathe, don’t let her win, and stay distant so it’s not just anger or rage… just you telling it like it is and her being too dumb to see it (dumb is one of her fears about herself too…). Let her cry. Days of it. Point to everything you both built together, then show how’s she lit it on fire and you are dancing in the ashes because now you know who she really is and you are finally free from her; Make that a good thing.

Do not grovel, do not beg, do not show much remorse for the words or the actual panic you feel about losing her. If you do, she has leverage and will use it. Throw a scrap or two like “I know you were once ____” like it’s a fond memory of whom you fell in love with. Give her some hope that if she gets herself put together like she used to be, you loved that person. And reward/acknowledge every time she does let that woman out. Carrot/stick… months of this.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh, I should probably also point the major downside of this approach. It is hurtful, you probably don’t like being that guy, and you might dissipate that fog and get her back. But once you get her back, then it sort of hits you that ‘she is yours’ and the adultery didn’t go away, the past doesn’t just disappear, and there is a ton of work to do repairing both yourself, her, and the marriage. I am not sure if it’s worth it because it seems to me you still get the short end of the stick. 

Seems like a good idea at the time like you are saving the marriage. But later, you will really question whether it should have been saved and whether or not it might have been healthier to find someone new that doesn’t carry all those memories for you. So… take it with a grain of salt. I’m not sure whether I “I won” or “lost” even 5 years out.


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## professor_panda (May 1, 2014)

maincourse99 said:


> _
> 
> Not worth the effort. I prefer to hang out with women, sleep with them if it goes that way and move on when it gets stupid. Life is to short to have to "game up". There are plenty of women out there who are fun, key is if you genuinely can take or leave them, they'll come after you. If a woman tires of me, I could not care less. I move on to the next one. No more emotional investments in women._


_

99% of it is not giving a sh*t if they come or go. Not resting all of your happiness on a woman's shoulders. When I hit that mindset, that's when the floodgates opened. 

So, congrats. Whether you know it or not, you have game. Pimp level gameness, actually._


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

russell28 said:


> If you think that incorporate traits into your behaviour and physicality will prevent your spouse from cheating, then more power to you..


I'm talking about stacking the odds in my favor.

How many times have we heard the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" story?

How many times have we heard the "I don't know why but I'm just not attracted to him any more" story?

How many times have we heard the "She won't even have sex with me and then I find out she's having crazy kinky sex with some other guy" story?

This is to get at the heart of that: acknowledgement that biology can dictate attraction.

The more she's having crazy sex and being attracted to me, the less likely is she to pursue it elsewhere.



russell28 said:


> I like to be myself, and want a person to take me for how I am.. I don't want to put on a dog and pony show to impress my spouse to keep them from wanting to mount a finer looking pony for the rest of my life.


I'm talking about being the best me I can be. And taking into account what turns my partner's crank.

Example: My wife likes the "grizzled" look. So I don't shave on weekends.

My wife likes big guns. So I work out and make my guns big. 

My wife likes hip, roguish well-fitting clothing. So I wear that when we go out... and I don't slob around the house in baggy hoodies. I'll throw on a wife beater and some board shorts.

I'm not talking about being someone I'm not. I'm talking about not letting go of the things that attracted me to her to begin with.



russell28 said:


> I was willing to take my wife with all her flaws, to love every wrinkle and cherish every bit of her, as she is. I hoped for the same. Someone to care for me as I am, not someone I force myself to be, or pretend to be.


I would still love my wife if she were 300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have sex with her.

I would still love my wife if she didn't shower for 2 weeks, but I wouldn't want to have sex with her.

I would still love my wife if she slobbed around the house in baggy clothes and didn't bother paying attention to her appearance, but I'd want to have sex with her less.

Do this stuff enough and in my opinion you up the odds that someone will be motivated or open to entertaining an affair.



russell28 said:


> I mean, if she likes something like a certain color shirt, I might go out of my way to wear it.. things like that, cool.. but I'm not going to pretend to be a rock star because my wife thinks a certain rock star is hot... Hey, my wife likes David Lee Roth, that's why I'm wearing the assless chaps today.


I think we're agreeing more than we're disagreeing.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Some blame can go on the BH but let's be real .. that man role can be unrealistic. A guy works hard to provide for his family, gets home on time to kiss his wife, help with kids and dinner, is loving, etc. SAHM's role become routine.. she feels unappreciated. Maybe she gets a job, feels more independent, starts attracting other men. H becomes expendable to a degree.
> 
> ...


This is *exactly* my point, well said.

Our bodies are biological machines that have drives. Wives don't become special princesses that get that switch flipped off when they put a wedding ring on.

You can stack those drives into your favor by being mindful of the biological urges, or not.

Or you can ignore them at your own peril.

I'm not telling you what to do russel, I'm telling you I blew this in marriage #1 and almost in marriage #2.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

I've said this plenty of times before but personally, there is no fog. Its a desire to check out of the marriage and be with someone else. Feelings are feelings and once they lose feelings for the AP is when the previous spouse "returns". No alien, no body snatching happened. They made a choice to cheat and in that decision, fell for another person. Its called moving on, grieving the relationship with the AP, telling themselves every day that they WANT to be in the marriage with us and then they get it. 

Crying on the floor, sobbing all of that can be faked. It's the day by day actions that you see them coming back to the family


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

asia said:


> I've said this plenty of times before but personally, there is no fog. Its a desire to check out of the marriage and be with someone else. Feelings are feelings and once they lose feelings for the AP is when the previous spouse "returns". No alien, no body snatching happened. They made a choice to cheat and in that decision, fell for another person. Its called moving on, grieving the relationship with the AP, telling themselves every day that they WANT to be in the marriage with us and then they get it.
> 
> Crying on the floor, sobbing all of that can be faked. It's the day by day actions that you see them coming back to the family


Wife #1 was in a complete state of delusion and seemed to put aside her very high IQ and was simply shocked that I wouldn't sit idly by while she lived in our house and screwed another guy while I paid the bills endlessly. She was simply shocked and had zero plan for what was clearly about to happen. Delusional.

My buddies wife was simply shocked when her husband busted her for screwing his friend (and was hitting on me, too). He dumped her ass immediately, sold the house, sued for custody of the kids, and took off on vacation with his new 22 year old girlfriend. Took it like a boss, that one did. She was baffled why "it was suddenly over" and when she got dumped by his buddy (who was married) why "he won't even talk about reconciliation." Delusional.

I think the dopamine rush of being with someone new + the rationalization it must take to have an affair screws with a person's sense of reality.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

What Racer wrote will work, but it will change your wife and it will change you. Usually, not for the better. Some of that reads verbally, mentally, and emotionally abusive. It reads like gaslighting 101. 

It will work if done right. It's similar to what was done to me. So, it's a bit of a reverse, but it will crush some and they will never be the same. 

Parts of that are not such a bad idea, depending on how, when, and who it done with. It can send someone to the funny farm, so, I personally would not do it to someone I love. Maybe, a less harmful variation with truth and a gentle approach? Not so sure. There could be some legal issues with that approach.

It is great, however, if you do know her language and how to speak to her. Nothing wrong with that. It's really what most folks want, male or female. 



While you cannot be someone you are not, you can tweak who you are and how you act and react. We have done this all our lives, due to circumstances beyond our control and to attempt to achieve goals which seem like they are worthy of our efforts. 

I do believe marduk has the right approach. We as men, have been lax in our duties because of ever changing society that we live in. We must adapt to the conditions we live in. 

At issue for most folks is, they look at the approach as bullying behavior, when it is not. It is actually more adult and begins to remove the thoughts that our wives are our mothers, from their minds. This is very important. When they start to feel like our mother, they start to lose sexual attraction. Men they don't know will seem more aloof and interesting. Add in a little healthy physique, and you have a combination that says to many women, "I'm taking care of myself so I can physically please a mate." Guess what? That's what she was looking for. She wants to be loved for her mind, yes. She wants to please the man she loves, though, too. That means being attractive and looked at like she is desired to fulfill your sexual needs and fantasies, to some extent. 

She does not want to be your mother. I'm not saying you treat her that way, but she may feel like you needed her more for friendship and support, than to have as you did when you first met. Think of the difference in how you two related then and a couple or three years before you started having trouble. 

You don't have to be a bully. You just need to change how you interact with her. You need to change how and what you do for yourself and her. Instead of living for her, you need to live for yourself, with her best interests in mind. There's a difference there. If what is in her best interests, aren't in yours, she is not going to be the best match for you. Now, think about that. See how the dynamic has shifted? 

Think about his in context with what I posted from another member of TAM. You will start to see how they kind of mesh. 

Don't know if this will help you, but I hope it does.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

xakulax said:


> Being in the fog is not different than any from of indoctrination and usually the only way to get someone out of it is to let them hit rock bottom. The more you challenge them the more they will dig in so don't the truth is self evident and it will be there to greet them when there at the bottom and the fog lifts the real question however is should you be there to help them or let them go.


Quite brilliant Xak:smthumbup:


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

russell28 said:


> Hey, my wife likes David Lee Roth, that's why I'm wearing the assless chaps today.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Your worth is yours and yours alone... 
No one can take it from you
And Someone else will always appreciate it

Yet... the one you love is the one you love
Its not that easy to replace
warm bodies can come along
but those deeper connections are few

I don't care how bad they treated you
There is that "one something special"
not found in another
left behind in the rubble

of what once was...


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

“you have to be distanced enough to remove that filter that spares her, and be willing to live with the consequences”

The distance is the key….most people when trying to convince the spouse what is fact from perceptions are still too close and too emotional. Your also getting more into a war of attrition and it takes strong will and time to wear down the spouse and as Racer said, at the end did you win or lose? You win the battle but did you win the war…..

Parts of the affair fog are real, the chemical/hormonal changes do happen, we all want to feel good yet they all make the decision to do it which they need to own and understand. Most never own the decision and until they do they don’t understand what drove them to it because they cant look at themselves.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> I'm talking about stacking the odds in my favor.
> 
> How many times have we heard the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" story?
> 
> ...


I think we agree on one thing, you need to be the best you can be.. I think we disagree on the reason, it's not to turn your partners crank. It's to be the best you that you can be, if that turns your partners crank, then that's just a bonus. You need to stop worrying about the partner, and what turns the crank. Start worrying about what turns your crank. Once your partner notices you're cranking, they won't care what kind of shirt you're wearing or how baggy your sweat pants are because you're no longer focused on what they want, you're focused on what you want, and there's nothing sexier than a man that knows what he wants and goes after it.

I think if any of us had a miracle recipe for how to make a spouse not cheat, we'd not be here. Obviously there is no miracle cure, even alpha's get cheated on.. even alpha's with hairy chests and muscle t-shirts with full heads of hair and fast sports cars get cheated on.

I'm sure many men have thought "I'm keeping my woman so satisfied, I'm so alpha, I have huge muscles and she loves muscles" and then found out they were being cheated on. Even in spite of all the awesome sex they were giving, all the hoops they jumped through to look sexy and act alpha.. and some other alpha swept in derailed the foolproof strategy.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

russell28 said:


> I think we agree on one thing, you need to be the best you can be.. I think we disagree on the reason, it's not to turn your partners crank. It's to be the best you that you can be, if that turns your partners crank, then that's just a bonus. You need to stop worrying about the partner, and what turns the crank. Start worrying about what turns your crank. Once your partner notices you're cranking, they won't care what kind of shirt you're wearing or how baggy your sweat pants are because you're no longer focused on what they want, you're focused on what you want, and there's nothing sexier than a man that knows what he wants and goes after it.


100% aligned here, except that not to take into consideration what turns your partner's crank is to overlook vital information.

I'm a pragmatist. I work to get the outcomes I'm looking for. If it's more sex, part of that is to be aware of my partner's turn-ons.

That doesn't mean slavishly trying to push their turn-on buttons in the hopes of getting what you want.



russell28 said:


> I think if any of us had a miracle recipe for how to make a spouse not cheat, we'd not be here. Obviously there is no miracle cure, even alpha's get cheated on.. even alpha's with hairy chests and muscle t-shirts with full heads of hair and fast sports cars get cheated on.
> 
> I'm sure many men have thought "I'm keeping my woman so satisfied, I'm so alpha, I have huge muscles and she loves muscles" and then found out they were being cheated on. Even in spite of all the awesome sex they were giving, all the hoops they jumped through to look sexy and act alpha.. and some other alpha swept in derailed the foolproof strategy.












Some women will just cheat. No matter what they have at home. Nothing you can do will ever change that. My suspicion is that they're on the far right hand side of the bell curve.

Some women will be tempted to cheat and consider it or be tempted if they're unhappy or dissatisfied for some reason. Maybe this is where you hear "It just happened, I didn't mean for it to." I think they're the middle right hand side of the curve.

Some women will be tempted to cheat but won't, but perhaps might end a marriage to pursue a relationship with someone else if they are dissatisfied. This is maybe the ILYBINILWY crowd, and the middle left hand side of the curve.

Some women will never cheat or leave, no matter how unhappy they are, and in my model they are on the far left hand side of the curve.

I'm going under the assumption that my wife, and most people's wives sit within 1-2 standard deviations, and that's where my strategy is targeted for.

There is no strategy to guarantee outcomes because people and society are just too complicated.

What I'm saying is to put the odds into your favour as much as possible. My suspicion is that the majority of affairs could have had their probabilities reduced.

Myself as an example... my wife started going out way, way too much. Flirting with other guys, even. Weekends girl's trips.

All reduced a lot when I got in shape, dressed nicer, and started getting attention from other women.

Silver bullet? No. Am I in a safer place? I think so. Am I happier? Damn, yes.

You are right not to overdue tuning yourself to your spouse's desire. My approach was to start with they physical by getting in shape, dressing nicer, and being aware of my body language. Then I started to work on being decisive, taking smart risks, and being clear about what I want. Then I started paying a lot of attention to what caught her attention, and fine tuned what I already had (for me) as a force multiplier to get what I wanted (more sex and more security).

Not only am I a better me, but I think I've reduced the odds of my wife cheating and we have a way better marriage with more intimacy and trust as a result.

And I'm a better father and working on my second promotion in as many years too.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> 100% aligned here, except that not to take into consideration what turns your partner's crank is to overlook vital information.
> 
> I'm a pragmatist. I work to get the outcomes I'm looking for. If it's more sex, part of that is to be aware of my partner's turn-ons.
> 
> ...


If your wife flirts with other guys.. it's not because of anything to do with you. She wants attention, not from you.. she gets that all the time. She knows you think she's special, you married her.. she needs validation from others. You probably feel happier because you feel better about yourself. Are you really safer, or do you juts have the illusion of being safer?

I look good, bought flowers, drive a nice car, have talent, lots of confidence.. ladies at work love me, I've been hit on plenty.. always was proud to have a beautiful wife that I've been with forever.. well she cheated with some fat janitor from work that wears smelly jeans, but he spent lots of 'quality' one on one time with her in work. Fed her ego... fluffed her up with compliments.. Do you think I never complimented my wife? She never heard it when I did it.. because I've been saying that stuff for 20 years.. she was itching for some strange, some new man to tell her those nice things. Don't beat yourself up about letting yourself go, or whatever reason you've convinced yourself of that caused your wife to cheat. It wasn't what you wore, or how big your belly got. It was more about her lack of self esteem and low self respect than what you were wearing or how you combed your hair.

You say reduced a lot... She still flirts and goes away for weekends, but not as much?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> 100% aligned here, except that not to take into consideration what turns your partner's crank is to overlook vital information.
> 
> I'm a pragmatist. I work to get the outcomes I'm looking for. If it's more sex, part of that is to be aware of my partner's turn-ons.
> 
> ...


Huh? Wrong use of the wrong tool. Cheating is binary. You either cheat or you do not cheat. One cannot develop a mean or median of this. Associating cheating with a bell shaped curve. Sorry, wrong tool and incorrect analysis of the data. Please reconsider your tools, data and results. i.e., if there are two people in a room. One is six feet tall, the other is five feet tall, everyone is therefore 5.5 feet tall except for the cheaters and the non-cheaters...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

She still goes out occasionally with her girlfriends, just like I do with my buddies. But she's home at a reasonable hour, and does it maybe once a month or two rather than a few times a week.

She no longer flirts with other guys. She never did anything overt or sexual, but once you understand what flirting is to women, the signs are unmistakable.

She reduced the flirting dramatically when she started not being able to take her hands off of me when I got in shape and got some new threads.

She stopped flirting (or even paying attention to other guys at all) when she got more worried about other women paying attention to me. 

Unedited honesty: when my wife is out of shape, not sexing me up, and doesn't shower or put on anything but sweats, for some reason I notice young hotties a lot more.

I suspect the same is true of her.

Like I said, there's a subset of women that will always seek male attention. This is mate selection pure and simple. I also think they are in the minority.

None of this means that she is not at fault if she cheats. None of this means that she shouldn't stay faithful every second she's in the marriage. None of this shifts any blame away from the cheater.

What it does do is give you things that are in your control to work on.

I can't control my wife. Trust me, I tried.

I can control me... and understand what keeps her happy and attracted to me.

And it's still very much a work in progress.

Not all women respond the same way. Like I said, some women will just cheat. In that case, there's nothing you can do but get out and set yourself up to get the best woman next that you can.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Q tip said:


> Huh? Wrong use of the wrong tool. Cheating is binary. You either cheat or you do not cheat. One cannot develop a mean or median of this. Associating cheating with a bell shaped curve. Sorry, wrong tool and incorrect analysis of the data. Please reconsider your tools, data and results. i.e., if there are two people in a room. One is six feet tall, the other is five feet tall, everyone is therefore 5.5 feet tall except for the cheaters and the non-cheaters...


The bell curve is an attempt to articulate western women's infidelity, not a specific woman's infidelity. To look at women in general.

My thinking is somewhere around +2 sd's are women who will just not be monogamous.

Somewhere around 0 to +2 are women that may succumb to cheating or be tempted to cheat.

Somewhere around 0 to -2 are women that won't cheat, but may end the marriage to pursue someone else.

Somewhere around -2 are women that will never cheat or leave no matter what happens.

Not scientific. I don't have all the data. This is a working model that I used during my journey to try to understand women's behaviour; people are full of variety, but patterns emerge.

Here's some data, not that I trust it.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/infidelity-statistics/


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> The bell curve is an attempt to articulate women's infidelity, not a specific woman's infidelity. To look at women in general.
> 
> My thinking is somewhere around +2 sd's are women who will just not be monogamous.
> 
> ...



Again, wrong tool. I.e., by your argument, a woman is only just a little pregnant, then increasingly so over time culminating in pregnancy, then off the bell shaped curve to infinitesimally not pregnant. Or a guy cheats only a little bit. Sorry, just the wrong tool. Just does not model itself that way. Wrong tool. I get your meaning, it's just modeled incorrectly.

Data you don't trust? Omg. What does that tell you right off the bat.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Q tip said:


> Again, wrong tool. I.e., by your argument, a woman is only just a little pregnant, then increasingly so over time culminating in pregnancy, then off the bell shaped curve to infinitesimally not pregnant. Or a guy cheats only a little bit. Sorry, just the wrong tool. Just does not model itself that way. Wrong tool. I get your meaning, it's just modeled incorrectly.
> 
> Data you don't trust? Omg. What does that tell you right off the bat.


I'm not mapping an individual's infidelity, I'm attempting to create a mental model of a population of women's infidelity. And the reality is that infidelity is a spectrum of behaviour where on one end you have complete chasteness, then innocent flirting, then temptation, then EAs, then kissing, then sex, etc. An affair does not start when a penis enters a vagina.

A woman being a little pregnant isn't my argument at all. Respectfully don't put words in my mouth.

My argument is that some women will never cheat or leave a marriage for any reason to pursue a relationship with another man, and those women are in the minority.

My argument is that some women will never be monogamous in any relationship. My hope is that these women are in the minority.

My argument is that most women will eventually be tempted to cheat or will be tempted to leave the relationship to be with someone else given the right motivation. And that the only real power I have is influence on her motivation.

The problem with data in this space is people's honestly. And anyway, I'm not interested in the data itself, I'm interested in creating a model that I can test and validate in my marriage.

I'm an empiricist; I use what works based upon that which I see.

Do you have a better model? Do you have a better way to up the odds of keeping your spouse faithful?

If so, I'd love to hear it.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> I'm not mapping an individual's infidelity, I'm attempting to create a mental model of a population of women's infidelity. And the reality is that infidelity is a spectrum of behaviour where on one end you have complete chasteness, then innocent flirting, then temptation, then EAs, then kissing, then sex, etc. An affair does not start when a penis enters a vagina.
> 
> The problem with data in this space is people's honestly. And anyway, I'm not interested in the data itself, I'm interested in creating a model that I can test and validate in my marriage.
> 
> ...


I'd suggest investigating six sigma. Tons of resources and tools there. I am afraid the solution to the problem won't be found there, but presents an interesting mathematical challenge. Never put word in mouth. I.e., means for example of wrong tool.

MMSLP seems to have good concepts to seriously consider. 

In the mean time, "life's like a box of chocolates..."

One can do their best, but you cannot control infidelity. They either meet your expectations or they do not. You can control over consequences not the cheater. In the mean time (PI) enjoy your spouse and life to its fullest.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Q tip said:


> I'd suggest investigating six sigma. Tons of resources and tools there. I am afraid the solution to the problem won't be found there, but presents an interesting mathematical challenge.
> 
> MMSLP seems to have good concepts to seriously consider.
> 
> In the mean time, "life's like a box of chocolates..."


Been through MMSLP and come out the other side.

Like I've said before for me it's the beginning of wisdom, not the end.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

*Re: Re: The Fog - To Engage or Not Engage*



Q tip said:


> I'd suggest investigating six sigma. Tons of resources and tools there. I am afraid the solution to the problem won't be found there, but presents an interesting mathematical challenge. Never put word in mouth. I.e., means for example of wrong tool.
> 
> MMSLP seems to have good concepts to seriously consider.
> 
> ...


Interesting to hear Project and Risk Management references here. 

My opinion: You can't control your spouse. You can make informed statistical data to back up rationale, but no one will do anything they aren't ready to. 

There are always outliers.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I'd suggest a 3d scatter plot to help find the outliers easier, they'll stand out.. I'd also suggest to color any red flags, red.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ok... you guys are cracking me up... sometimes when we dive into emotional issues we tend to gravitate to logic, analysis, left brained thinking to "cope" with the "feel" of the emotion so it will calm the seas...

Here is my approach.... 

Manage the man who shows up... people are static AND fluid

Be the best me for me AND those around me, knowing where my boundaries begin and end.

Speak up... trust they will respond, be ready to correct, not one more than the other..

I'm learning the art of what it means to not be unloving... Some ways to be unloving some people wouldn't consider unloving... but they are. ie, only caringing/performing in order to "get"

The art of loving well is WAY more fluid and deeply rooted in intent than any of us fully realize. 

But we all "know it" when we "see it"

It's ART when it is hard to describe, but fuels a soul....


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Many posters, including myself, are quick to throw out the 180 as the best approach to this "fog"; and IMHO, there's a reason for that. It is the best approach; assuming the fog means they are still in contact with the OM/OW.

That doesn't mean the 180 is easy. It doesn't mean that there won't be set backs in trying to implement it. But, I find it difficult to accept that some BS's say they just can't do it. Of course they can do it - if they direct all their emotional energy toward it and believe in it.

Engaging in a heated discussion with a CS who has this addiction is pointless. I agree with Racer in that they need to find their own rock bottom and there's nothing wrong with helping them get there. It just needs to be done calmly and systematically.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

You can’t control others, including your spouse, but you can influence. One way to manipulate the system is by information control. Waywards do this as all betrayed know. A missing piece of information can change the entire landscape of perceptions in a moment. What your marriage was the minute before discovery changed in an instant.

What needs to be recognized is they also do it to themselves and all their other relationships. So take that bell curve. If you limit the variables to just focus in at that crest, the extreme ends of ‘normal’ look entirely different. Add information to zoom out, and you’ll see where you land is still entirely inside society normal.

So, your wayward probably just talked about the marriage issues. Magnified, exaggerated, and very biased toward being a victim. They are trying to control others by doing this by giving them a very focused field of data from which to judge and make opinions to give advice. It is also what they are telling themselves in the mirror. They discount, devalue or twist anything else to fit. So like Marduk buying his wife roses. She could very well write it off like mine as a manipulation attempt to get in her pants because that’s all he thinks about. She just corrupts the data to fit her focus range of what she wants others to see and judge her on.

But you aren’t controlled, nor are others. Outting works because all the sudden this new major variable is added and the whole thing changes. You, the BS aren’t a stalker like they thought based on partial information, you are trying to catch her cheating because she is cheating. Your wayward is no longer the victim, but the culprit and you, the BS, is reacting in a way that fits the bell curve as ‘normal’. Of coarse you will be angry, upset, lacking respect for your spouse, treating them like a criminal, etc… that’s how you treat someone cheating on you. Now it makes sense to them a lot more than you just being a terrible spouse.

And every relationship they have changes in an instant when the whole painting is revealed. It’s why I don’t think math or statistics work here. What information is given plus what the interpretation of that information might be is entirely jaded and corrupt. It’s based on your own experiences and what you believe as ‘normal’. So, some spouse following another all over town seems rather creepy. Until you add in that this other spouse has a confirmed ‘friend’ that looks awfully suspicious like it’s a romantic entanglement. Then it’s not creepy, its something you’d do to confirm your suspicions about your own spouse.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Racer said:


> And every relationship they have changes in an instant when the whole painting is revealed. It’s why I don’t think math or statistics work here. What information is given plus what the interpretation of that information might be is entirely jaded and corrupt. It’s based on your own experiences and what you believe as ‘normal’. So, some spouse following another all over town seems rather creepy. Until you add in that this other spouse has a confirmed ‘friend’ that looks awfully suspicious like it’s a romantic entanglement. Then it’s not creepy, its something you’d do to confirm your suspicions about your own spouse.


Exactly.... manage the spouse that shows up

Stand in the truth

with love

don't accept unacceptable behavior

then allow them to choose better

if they refuse... sianara...


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