# Quality Woman



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

What characteristics make up a quality woman *in terms of a romantic partner*? 

Does this definition change with age?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Can you guess what my first word is going to be?

Character (I say this all the time right, and probably requires all the rest below.)
Empathy
Loyalty
Attractiveness
Confidence (This is especially important when it comes to sex and with feeling attractive, which seems to be an issue with many women particularly with how the media tells them they need to be to be considered attractive.)
Honor
Self Discipline.
A good sense of humor is always a plus
A level of ambition. 
A level of expectation from herself and others. 

Frankly this is probably the same list that women would write about men. I don't think I am braking any ground here.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Can you guess what my first word is going to be.
> 
> Character (I say this all the time right, and probably requires all the rest below.)
> Empathy
> ...


How would you prioritize each of your qualities and are there some that carry more weight than others?

Also has your answer changed with age?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Difficult to put in priority order because I'd need some of all of these and there is no scale.

Honesty. Dependability, Capability. 

Separate from "quality" there are other things I desire in a partner

Interests similar enough for good conversations and things we can do together. 
Sexual compatibility
Love


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> How would you prioritize each of your qualities and are there some that carry more weight than others?
> 
> Also has your answer changed with age?


I think my list is pretty much prioritized. 

I wish I could say that my answer hasn't changed with age but if I am being honest I would think that attractiveness would probably be higher on the list when I was young. Also being cheated on really highlighted to me the need for character a lot more then it did before that happened. But there have been many life experiences that have proven this to be true. I think in my naivete I just assumed most people have it. 

I think you need to have chemistry and I don't think that is something that can be faked. I may not have thought that when I was young. I think I probably thought that when you are with each other long enough you just grown in chemistry and you do to a certain extent. But it's nice when you have that thing that just makes you think this person is hot and you want to jump their bones, or you can't wait to see them again. (I think it's important to note as I write about being hot that hot usually doesn't mean the very narrow definition that the media in the west tells you. It's much much broader then that, at lest to me. There have also been women who my friends would fall all over for who would fit the conventional definition of beauty that just weren't my type. That's a good thing!) I can't explain it, but who can right? Songs are written about that thing whatever it is. 

The trick is to have that and have the character, but that is not an easy thing to find for most of us.

I wonder how it is if you are wildly attractive not just conventionally, or if you have some sort of status that makes everyone attracted to you. Is it easier or is it just as hard and therefore even more demoralizing.

I also do know how normal a sample I am. I am not sure most people would list character as the first thing. I mean I post on this stupid board all the time for some reason which I can't figure out. I am interested in relationships and what makes people think the way they do. It's very important to me to be emotionally intelligent and in touch with my wife's feelings. I see part of my role in our marriage to be and emotional provider, not the only one but secondary to her own self. Is that normal? 

I always thought Proverbs 31:10-31 was a very good description, but I would add, a line about being hot. "Strength and dignity are her clothing" - except when you are alone and she is sexy like fire! > I suspect in that time physical appearance just didn't have the same weight that it does today. 

What are your thoughts on this? From your experience what do you think? Do you think it changes with age? I wonder how self aware of our priorities the genders are of themselves. I suspect if it's like everything else not always great.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXnU0StfBrat4p5X1SxS7Fg/videos

A good example of a quality woman.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Difficult to put in priority order because I'd need some of all of these and there is no scale.
> 
> Honesty. Dependability, Capability.
> 
> ...


Have these qualities changed over time for you?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Lila said:


> What characteristics make up a quality woman?
> 
> Does this definition change with age?


Yes, nature has a way of changing value over years.
As men age their value tends to increase.
As women age their value tends to decrease.

Im 54. A quality women has pretty face, honest and has a great attitude.
Puts my needs above her own.
here's one...https://www.youtube.com/user/NollaGirl504/videos


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I think my list is pretty much prioritized.
> 
> I wish I could say that my answer hasn't changed with age but if I am being honest I would think that attractiveness would probably be higher on the list when I was young. Also being cheated on really highlighted to me the need for character a lot more then it did before that happened. But there have been many life experiences that have proven this to be true. I think in my naivete I just assumed most people have it.
> 
> ...


Your response is interesting. Are you a Christian? I ask because your response sounds like what my friend said to me. 




> What are your thoughts on this? From your experience what do you think? Do you think it changes with age? I wonder how self aware of our priorities the genders are of themselves. I suspect if it's like everything else not always great.


Lol my experiences are somewhat jaded.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

----


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

----


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm probably not qualified to answer the first question, but the second question seems to be more important to you anyway.
I must say that the definition changes with age. It changes with her age. It changes with my age, but most importantly It changes with my experience.
My doc says I have premature old man syndrome. I'm not sure what that means, but I do seem to have a drive to share what experience has taught me. At this point in my life my definition of a quality person (female or other) is "A person who consistently can and does make ethical and moral choices". 

That's it. Nothing else.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

StillSearching said:


> Yes, nature has a way of changing value over years.
> As men age their value tends to increase.
> As women age their value tends to decrease.


I have never understood why men (people in general?) think this way. I certainly do not observe it to be true in real life.

What type of "value" are you speaking of?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Red Sonja said:


> I have never understood why men (people in general?) think this way. I certainly do not observe it to be true in real life.
> 
> What type of "value" are you speaking of?


Agreed. 

That may be some oldthink.... that a man's value is only in his earning potential which goes up through middle age while a woman's value is only in youthful appearance (largely associated with reproductive capability), which goes down with age. 

I think many if not most humans are evolving beyond these purely primal visceral responses.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Lila said:


> I am getting an error message when I click on your video.


Grrrr.....!

The youtube channel name is 'April Cassidy'


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

StillSearching said:


> Yes, nature has a way of changing value over years.
> As men age their value tends to increase.
> As women age their value tends to decrease.
> 
> ...



LOL, I checked out a few of her videos and she may fill the role of a Quality Woman.......for a right winger. I'm pretty sure a moderate man would NEXT her immediately. A liberal would toss her out on her pretty, make up caked head.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Grrrr.....!
> 
> The youtube channel name is 'April Cassidy'


I was able to see in on my laptop but was getting the error on my phone. I only watched a couple of her videos for a few minutes a piece. The thing about her videos is that she is a religious person married to another religious person raising a religious family. None of her advice would work with a partner who did not practice the same faith and/or was not willing to put in the work but from their side of the street. In other words, she can be that constant giving, turn the other cheek woman because her husband understands his role in the marriage.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Lila said:


> What characteristics make up a quality woman?
> 
> Does this definition change with age?


Kind of subjective. Personally I don't think whether or not a woman is generally considered attractive is a characteristic of her quality. I like character,humor,self discipline,curiosity,beat of their own drum women,but then I like to see that in most people.

The definition has changed for me to some extent over the years with regard to women. That has a lot to do with coming to better understand myself,my own values and being in relationships.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm probably not qualified to answer the first question, but the second question seems to be more important to you anyway.
> I must say that the definition changes with age. It changes with her age. It changes with my age, but most importantly It changes with my experience.
> My doc says I have premature old man syndrome. I'm not sure what that means, but I do seem to have a drive to share what experience has taught me. At this point in my life my definition of a quality person (female or other) is "A person who consistently can and does make ethical and moral choices".
> 
> That's it. Nothing else.


What did you prioritize in your younger days?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Red Sonja said:
> 
> 
> > I have never understood why men (people in general?) think this way. I certainly do not observe it to be true in real life.
> ...


Not at all.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Lila said:


> I was able to see in on my laptop but was getting the error on my phone. I only watched a couple of her videos for a few minutes a piece. The thing about her videos is that she is a religious person married to another religious person raising a religious family. None of her advice would work with a partner who did not practice the same faith and/or was not willing to put in the work but from their side of the street. In other words, she can be that constant giving, turn the other cheek woman because her husband understands his role in the marriage.


Yup.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Yup.


Does that make single women (Religious or not) SOL? I say this as a single Christian woman who cannot afford to be at all like that woman. I'd get eaten alive out there.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Loyal
Honest
Reasonable
Amorous
Cute
Dependable
Funny/Witty
Intelligent
Loving


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Lila said:


> What did you prioritize in your younger days?


That would be the bit that I'm too weird to be relevant. Also you need to note that you asked what characteristic made a woman a Quality woman. You did not ask what did I look for in someone to date. The answers to those questions may not necessarily line up. 

So to answer your question. The women (young women) that I admired did have some shared characteristics. They were kind. As opposed to being cruel. This is important when you consider my second characterization. They were decisive leaders. Or at least had the ability to be. They were making moral and ethical choices, but mistakes were more accepted then. They were active in service, No matter how busy their lives were. They were almost all happy people.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> What characteristics make up a quality woman?
> 
> Does this definition change with age?


The answers are subjective to the individual.

I'm guessing someone said something that made you question yourself. Forget that. There are all kinds of quality. Everyone has an idea of what they think it is. Just be yourself. That will be quality.


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## Congress (Apr 9, 2019)

Much like beauty, quality is in eye of the beholder.

Some people see quality as a ride or die partner.

Others see quality in a home cooked meal and a clean house.

Some see pious women as quality.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Only the discovery that sexual compatibility was important, not something that just happened. I don't think the rest have changed since I was an adult. 





Lila said:


> Have these qualities changed over time for you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Difficult to put in priority order because I'd need some of all of these and there is no scale.

Honesty. Dependability, Capability. 

Separate from "quality" there are other things I desire in a partner

Interests similar enough for good conversations and things we can do together. 
Sexual compatibility
Love
Have these qualities changed over time for you?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lila said:


> What characteristics make up a quality woman?


Materials, workmanship, and ideally a warranty.


> Does this definition change with age?


Once they're past the expiration date, best not to take chances and toss them.

j/k, I like women.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Honesty and a desire to learn. 

All the rest will fall into place with those two.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I should have added that before this I never really thought of women (or men) in terms of "quality". Its not a term I associate with people, but if I did, my answer above stands.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> LOL, I checked out a few of her videos and she may fill the role of a Quality Woman.......for a right winger. I'm pretty sure a moderate man would NEXT her immediately. A liberal would toss her out on her pretty, make up caked head.


She should be chosen as the star of "AOC - The Movie"...




Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I suppose I can participate, 5 more days to go till single hood...

- adventuresome. Likes to explore
- mindful - introspection by the ton
- extrovert (had it with INTJ's)
- NOT materialistic
- NOT too mature (eg can appreciate a good prank here and there)
- well raised kids (duh)
- enjoys apartment life
- appreciates art
- is predictably unpredictable
- loves small cars
- cat lover
- supremely educated
- well read
- emotionally healthy
- physically healthy
- good sense of fashion 
- good enough physique to fill a reasonably revealing party dress without looking "what was she thinking" 
- hopelessly romantic



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I’m sure this list is influenced by my past but

Character
Attractiveness
Confidence
Sexual
Adventurous


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

A quality woman knows how to give a quality BJ :grin2:










In terms of quality / characteristics changing over time, I don't really see this as something that has changed in my view, but I can understand why what someone considers a "quality" person could change depending on where that person is in their life.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> The answers are subjective to the individual.
> 
> I'm guessing someone said something that made you question yourself. Forget that. There are all kinds of quality.


The idea was prompted by what someone said to me but it's more than that. I started the thread just to see what the men of TAM say their priorities are with regards to a Quality Woman, however the lists I'm seeing here are not what I'm recognizing as the priorities IRL and I'm wondering the disconnect. 



2ntnuf said:


> Everyone has an idea of what they think it is. *Just be yourself. That will be quality.*


I am wish that were true @2ntnuf.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TBT said:


> Kind of subjective.* Personally I don't think whether or not a woman is generally considered attractive is a characteristic of her quality.* I like character,humor,self discipline,curiosity,beat of their own drum women,but then I like to see that in most people.
> 
> The definition has changed for me to some extent over the years with regard to women. That has a lot to do with coming to better understand myself,my own values and being in relationships.


You are one of several men here who have either not mentioned physical attractiveness or downplayed it as a necessary quality. 

Would you date/marry an "ugly" (totally subjective but you know what I mean) woman if she had character, humor, self discipline, curiosity, uniqueness?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Congress said:


> Much like beauty, quality is in eye of the beholder.
> 
> Some people see quality as a ride or die partner.
> 
> ...


How do you see it?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

SpinyNorman said:


> Materials, workmanship, and ideally a warranty.
> 
> Once they're past the expiration date, best not to take chances and toss them.
> 
> j/k, I like women.


Sorry @SpinyNorman, "All Sales Final". You bought it, you own it, so make sure to do your due diligence so you don't end up with a lemon.:grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> You are one of several men here who have either not mentioned physical attractiveness or downplayed it as a necessary quality.
> 
> Would you date/marry an "ugly" (totally subjective but you know what I mean) woman if she had character, humor, self discipline, curiosity, uniqueness?


I know not directed at me, but I could not date/marry someone I was not physically attracted to. Now keep in mind, personality plays a big role in how I view their attractiveness (someone "hot" would become very ugly to me very quick if they had a horrible personality). Having a physical attraction would be a must though.

To add though, you are asking about a "quality" woman, which IMO has nothing to do with their looks per se (aside from keeping themselves presentable)


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> What are your thoughts on this? From your experience what do you think? Do you think it changes with age? I wonder how self aware of our priorities the genders are of themselves. I suspect if it's like everything else not always great.


I gave it some thought last night. I am basing my opinion on my experiences.

I think physical attractiveness (collectively looks) is the most important attribute a Quality Woman can have. This doesn't mean that it's the ONLY quality needed but that it's the most important. It provides opportunity. Physical attractiveness provides potential for more dating, or employment, or even an easier life in general. It's the foot in the door. I liken it to the college degree from a prestigious university - it will open a lot more doors to job opportunities than say an unknown school, and allow for more networking opportunities once at the job. 

Beyond that, I think the definition of a Quality Woman changes based on life experiences, maturity level, and perceived needs. E.g. I would not expect someone with a debilitating disease that makes it difficult to walk to state "Adventurous" or "Physically Active" as a core trait of a quality woman.

ETA: Perceived beauty is the gate keeper. It must be there in order for the rest of the traits to be taken into account.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I know not directed at me, but I could not date/marry someone I was not physically attracted to. *Now keep in mind, personality plays a big role in how I view their attractiveness (someone "hot" would become very ugly to me very quick if they had a horrible personality)*. Having a physical attraction would be a must though.


Thanks for the honesty @EllisRedding. 

In my experience (personal, familial, and otherwise) personality makes for great friends but doesn't play as big of a role as physical looks.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Thanks for the honesty @EllisRedding.
> 
> In my experience (personal, familial, and otherwise) personality makes for great friends but doesn't play as big of a role as physical looks.


Agreed. I could never date/marry someone just based on looks alone, just like I could never do just based on personality. It is about finding a balance. A "hot" woman with a ****ty personality is a big turn off. An "average" looking woman with a great personality on the other hand just makes them look that much more attractive IMO.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@Lila

Regarding this thread, I am not 100% sure what are you are really asking. Are you just talking about preferences someone would have for dating? Just b/c someone is a "quality" woman doesn't have to mean that is also a person you would want to date, I really see this as two different things.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Positive attitude
Attractive to me
Fun
Stable
Honest

In that order. Yes priority list has changed. I would have placed attitude about #3 before.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> @Lila
> 
> Regarding this thread, I am not 100% sure what are you are really asking. Are you just talking about preferences someone would have for dating? Just b/c someone is a "quality" woman doesn't have to mean that is also a person you would want to date, I really see this as two different things.


I am assuming most men want a Quality Woman for a relationship so am asking the question from that angle. 

But you are correct, there are quality women (mother Teresa comes mind) who are the epitome of a Quality Person period.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Red Sonja said:


> I have never understood why men (people in general?) think this way. I certainly do not observe it to be true in real life.
> 
> What type of "value" are you speaking of?


SMV = Sexual Marketplace Value

I'm presuming that is the reference.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

What makes up a quality woman answers will vary:

Per person

The definition if focused on what are societal expectations.

What the answer is as women are encountered in real life, not according to textbook absolutes.

And lastly, what role in your life does (or would) the woman you're describing play in your life? GF, W, daughter, etc?

Is the intent by OP to describe the perfect woman to know, date, or marry? (which, or all?)

Many very good lists, have been posted. It becomes percentages, ratios, weights, of each of the items mixed as desired per person.

There are textbook answers and there are real world answers.

Many will have the same or greatly overlapping definition of a quality woman hence societal norms, but not all, hence personal interpretation. 

What are responses beyond any answer that could be forecast from the beginning?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Lila said:


> You are one of several men here who have either not mentioned physical attractiveness or downplayed it as a necessary quality.
> 
> Would you date/marry an "ugly" (totally subjective but you know what I mean) woman if she had character, humor, self discipline, curiosity, uniqueness?





Lila said:


> I gave it some thought last night. I am basing my opinion on my experiences.
> 
> I think physical attractiveness (collectively looks) is the most important attribute a Quality Woman can have. This doesn't mean that it's the ONLY quality needed but that it's the most important. It provides opportunity. Physical attractiveness provides potential for more dating, or employment, or even an easier life in general. It's the foot in the door. I liken it to the college degree from a prestigious university - it will open a lot more doors to job opportunities than say an unknown school, and allow for more networking opportunities once at the job.
> 
> ...





Lila said:


> Thanks for the honesty @EllisRedding.
> 
> In my experience (personal, familial, and otherwise) personality makes for great friends but doesn't play as big of a role as physical looks.


point 1 - If you already know the answer, why ask?

Point 2 - There is an old and well known saying among men. Women and men may ignore it at their own risk. "Beauty is skin deep, But Ugly goes right to the bone" This is not mocking unattractive women. What this is saying is exactly what Ellis is painstakingly laying out. Beauty is worthless if it is covering a personality full of unattractive attitudes, that are never going to change.

Point 3 - If Spiny N, does invest in a beautiful woman, he is lucky to get a 10 year warranty on that. Beauty is a fleeting quality.

In other reactions to other posts. I generally find that a good fashion sense is contrary to making good moral and ethical choices. 

A general summary about the gatekeeper theory.
In my life experience, I would label less that 1% of women I've met as physically ugly. The rate for personality ugliness runs over 20%. There are some reasons deep in my personality for this. There are some age and experience reasons for this. There are some market forces in our economy that have led to this perception.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I guess I'm thinking what answers more in detail. 

For every textbook answer like:
Character
Attractiveness
Personality 

Etc, there are details not gone into.

John actually went deepest into details. 

Although he's apparently a cat person. I won't hold that against him.

Supremely educated? In what areas?

Let's get into the weeds on this topic &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I consider a quality woman to be someone that I enjoy being with, either platonically and or sexually.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Nature sucks.
Lets deny it.
We have evolved.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I guess I'm thinking what answers more in detail.
> 
> For every textbook answer like:
> Character
> ...


When you get into the weeds on making ethical choices you can start to dictate beliefs and politics. I have no intention of doing that.
I respect a persons ethical choice to go Vegan, Even though that is not my choice.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Respectfully, although I see how a person's ethics might be "assumed" tracking backwards from a detailed answer, but:

There shouldn't necessarily be a presumption that will actually be possible or indeed happen. 

No one is looking to create a "judge others" environment on this, far from it.

But to stay away from generic answers and get into real life applications that may share some perspective or support to others. Far more than just restating overarching terms.

Like as an IT Engineer, someone asks me for 6 network connections in this new building going up.

I have to ask them their use, of the install and more details, to give them a design they'll be happy with and serve their team for near and far term as much as possible. 

And what do they think a "network connection" is, vs what it really is, and all it's required to do. 

What is best for them, in detail.

There are a great many types/configurations yet all can be described as a "network connection".


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is it possible people are interpreting the question differently than you intended? Maybe not everyone is thinking of a romantic partner when you mention a "quality" woman. There are many fine women out there that I would still not want as romantic partners. 

To your specific question, "ugly" covers a lot of ground. I find most women attractive. Maybe a better way to put it is that most women (in my reasonable dating age range) are attractive enough that their appearance would not cause me to not date them. There are women I consider especially beautiful, but I don't find that all that important. Its sort of like cars - I think Maseratis are are beautiful, but I don't want to own one. 

So the women I know that I've been most attracted to, are not especially physically attractive to me. I probably would't date someone I found actually ugly, but that doesn't eliminate much of the population.

That said, you are not getting a typical slice of the population on this site, so your IRL experience could well be extremely different - especially depending on where you are meeting people. I'm certainly far from typical in my interest in women.




Lila said:


> You are one of several men here who have either not mentioned physical attractiveness or downplayed it as a necessary quality.
> 
> Would you date/marry an "ugly" (totally subjective but you know what I mean) woman if she had character, humor, self discipline, curiosity, uniqueness?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Is it possible people are interpreting the question differently than you intended? Maybe not everyone is thinking of a romantic partner when you mention a "quality" woman. There are many fine women out there that I would still not want as romantic partners.


Yeah, I think this is where I got hung up with this thread. If you were to ask me for a list of characteristics/qualities/traits for a potential partner, that would be an entirely different list from what I would consider a "quality" woman (although there would undoubtedly be overlap). When looking for a partner, in many cases you are looking for someone who has common values, goals, interests, etc... Those are not things I feel aren't necessarily applicable when trying to define a "quality" woman.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> point 1 - If you already know the answer, why ask?


For the same reason you responded to the thread.....to encourage a discussion



> Point 2 - There is an old and well known saying among men. Women and men may ignore it at their own risk. "Beauty is skin deep, But Ugly goes right to the bone" This is not mocking unattractive women. What this is saying is exactly what Ellis is painstakingly laying out. Beauty is worthless if it is covering a personality full of unattractive attitudes, that are never going to change.


Never said nor implied that beauty is the ONLY thing a woman needs to have to be considered a Quality Woman in a romantic sense. What I did say is that it does serve as a gate keeper. 



> Point 3 - If Spiny N, does invest in a beautiful woman, he is lucky to get a 10 year warranty on that. Beauty is a fleeting quality.
> 
> In other reactions to other posts. I generally find that a good fashion sense is contrary to making good moral and ethical choices.


So you think that unfashionable women are more moral and ethical than fashionable ones? Why?



> A general summary about the gatekeeper theory.
> In my life experience, I would label less that 1% of women I've met as physically ugly. The rate for personality ugliness runs over 20%. There are some reasons deep in my personality for this. There are some age and experience reasons for this. There are some market forces in our economy that have led to this perception.


I think it's great that you can find beauty in most every woman you meet. My grandfather was like that. He was a ladies man and he would tell my male cousins every woman has at least one beautiful thing about her. He said even ugly women are beautiful in a uniquely outstanding way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Is it possible people are interpreting the question differently than you intended? Maybe not everyone is thinking of a romantic partner when you mention a "quality" woman. There are many fine women out there that I would still not want as romantic partners.
> 
> To your specific question, "ugly" covers a lot of ground. I find most women attractive. Maybe a better way to put it is that most women (in my reasonable dating age range) are attractive enough that their appearance would not cause me to not date them. There are women I consider especially beautiful, but I don't find that all that important. Its sort of like cars - I think Maseratis are are beautiful, but I don't want to own one.
> 
> ...


Yes, Quality Woman as in a romantic partner. I will revise the OP to include that.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Being attractive certainly makes it easier to make initial contact with people and get dates. Appearance is the most obvious thing about a person when you first meet them. Even online, a lot of people will just sort by appearance.

There is a downside that some people will date just for appearance, and I suspect those are often not the most desirable people to date. 

I think once you know someone, appearance becomes less important. So dating though friends / social contacts it probably matters a lot less than dating specifically though dating sites / activities. 






Lila said:


> I gave it some thought last night. I am basing my opinion on my experiences.
> 
> I think physical attractiveness (collectively looks) is the most important attribute a Quality Woman can have. This doesn't mean that it's the ONLY quality needed but that it's the most important. It provides opportunity. Physical attractiveness provides potential for more dating, or employment, or even an easier life in general. It's the foot in the door. I liken it to the college degree from a prestigious university - it will open a lot more doors to job opportunities than say an unknown school, and allow for more networking opportunities once at the job.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

EllisRedding said:


> Yeah, I think this is where I got hung up with this thread. If you were to ask me for a list of characteristics/qualities/traits for a potential partner, that would be an entirely different list from what I would consider a "quality" woman (although there would undoubtedly be overlap). When looking for a partner, in many cases you are looking for someone who has common values, goals, interests, etc... Those are not things I feel aren't necessarily applicable when trying to define a "quality" woman.


Yes.

Thank you.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've never understood how SMV applies to anyone except sex workers, trying to set rates for services. 

Otherwise what matters is someones value to the partners that they want, which may be very different from their value to others in general. 

Or to put it another way, its unlikely a super-hot actress / model is going to want to date me, but I'm also unlikely to want to date them. 







Deejo said:


> SMV = Sexual Marketplace Value
> 
> I'm presuming that is the reference.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Until proven otherwise I'm going to assume that @Lila isn't interested in ethics or morality. At this point it's the "why don't I have a date this week" question. This put's me out of the conversation as my tastes are unusual. Also I find most women physically attractive.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I gave it some thought last night. I am basing my opinion on my experiences.
> 
> I think physical attractiveness (collectively looks) is the most important attribute a Quality Woman can have. This doesn't mean that it's the ONLY quality needed but that it's the most important. It provides opportunity. Physical attractiveness provides potential for more dating, or employment, or even an easier life in general. It's the foot in the door. I liken it to the college degree from a prestigious university - it will open a lot more doors to job opportunities than say an unknown school, and allow for more networking opportunities once at the job.
> 
> ...


Probably so. Wouldn't you say that physical attractiveness in the age of social media is now important for everyone though? Maybe not as much for men as it is for women but it seems to get more important every day.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Being attractive certainly makes it easier to make initial contact with people and get dates. Appearance is the most obvious thing about a person when you first meet them. Even online, a lot of people will just sort by appearance.
> 
> There is a downside that some people will date just for appearance, and I suspect those are often not the most desirable people to date.


There was a great article I read talking about the dating app culture and the negative effects it is having on society, specifically disenfranchising a very large portion of the singles population. They blame it partly on the Paradox of Choice and partly on the false sense of abundance that online dating sells. 



> *I think once you know someone, appearance becomes less important.* So dating though friends / social contacts it probably matters a lot less than dating specifically though dating sites / activities.


I agree that appearance loses some of it's luster once people actually get to know each other. The problem is finding to people IRL is almost impossible. Dating sites seems to be the only way that people date these days.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think physical attractiveness (collectively looks) is the most important attribute a Quality Woman can have. This doesn't mean that it's the ONLY quality needed but that it's the most important. It provides opportunity. Physical attractiveness provides potential for more dating, or employment, or even an easier life in general. It's the foot in the door. I liken it to the college degree from a prestigious university - it will open a lot more doors to job opportunities than say an unknown school, and allow for more networking opportunities once at the job.


Exactly right.

And it applies to men as well as women.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Lila said:


> -snip-.....to encourage a discussion
> -snip-
> 
> So you think that unfashionable women are more moral and ethical than fashionable ones? Why?
> ...


I think that fashionable women, especially those who obsess about it, have made a choice to participate in a industry devoid of ethics and with the morality of an alley cat. Kind of like the diamond industry. 

The idea that your clothes say something about you is not new. I like this one.

Joe Vs. the Volcano


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

@Lila

Just to get a good idea of what your issues might be, what's your attractiveness level? I found myself thinking that maybe your good looks were scaring guys off and then I realized that I really have no idea how attractive you are. 

I think you may have had a picture here briefly (though I didn't see it) and, as I recall, the response was pretty positive.

I've always assumed that you were fairly hot, but maybe I just read too much into your avatar? (I'm a high heels guy)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Agreed.
> 
> That may be some oldthink.... that a man's value is only in his earning potential which goes up through middle age while a woman's value is only in youthful appearance (largely associated with reproductive capability), which goes down with age.
> 
> I think many if not most humans are evolving beyond these purely primal visceral responses.


If we've succeeded in evolving in 50 years, that's pretty rapid evolution.

I suspect these values had some validity in the past and little in the present. 

I believe that people are struggling to ignore irrelevant evolved instincts in favor of rational, relevant thought with mixed results.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Qualities?
Hey, somebody has to say it ...

"Dat a$$."

And there you have it. Now I can't run for public office.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Probably so. Wouldn't you say that physical attractiveness in the age of social media is now important for everyone though? Maybe not as much for men as it is for women but it seems to get more important every day.


It is absolutely more prominent now but I think physical attractiveness has always been the basis for judging people throughout history. The difference is that we can judge more people faster virtually. 

You mention that it is more important for women that men but it still exists for men. How do you think it has affected men?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Until proven otherwise I'm going to assume that @Lila isn't interested in ethics or morality. At this point it's the "why don't I have a date this week" question. This put's me out of the conversation as my tastes are unusual. Also I find most women physically attractive.


I am certainly not stopping you from discussing ethics or morality. Speak your mind. Maybe there are others here who feel obliged to discuss your thoughts as well. You don't need my permission. 

And FTR, I actually have a date this week thank you very much. Actually have multiple dates this week.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> And it applies to men as well as women.


Hey wait a minute. Isn't the argument around here that the only thing men need is a big pocket book and some "edge" because SMV and age and something or other? 😉 😉


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > -snip-.....to encourage a discussion
> ...


But isn't judging someone by their physical appearance?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> @Lila
> 
> Just to get a good idea of what your issues might be, what's your attractiveness level? I found myself thinking that maybe your good looks were scaring guys off and then I realized that I really have no idea how attractive you are.
> 
> ...


Lol no. I'm not hot. I am probably on the lower end of average for my age. My body is okay (Im carrying extra weight but it seems to live in the right places on my body) but I am not "pretty" (didn't win the genetic lottery). I do dress nice, wear heals (lol), wear make up, have great hair (I do have to give myself props on that one), and take care of my skin (thanks to the dermatologist). Just an average person. 

I have two other single friends. Neither of them date. I think one would have zero problems finding another man if she got out there. She's my definition of a Quality Woman in the romantic sense. She is happily cloistered at home reading her books. The other is a super successful workaholic single mom who is thinking possibly that she may want to start researching the possibility of dating again. Yeah, I highly doubt it. So I'm left to figure out if my qualities make me eligible to enter the dating pool I wish to enter. If not, then I may as well give it up.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Qualities?
> Hey, somebody has to say it ...
> 
> "Dat a$$."
> ...


Please @Deejo, lets not go there again.. I think we beat "dat a$$" to death 😄


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I used to value a woman who could pleasure me with her mouth skills. Now I value a woman who can pleasure my mouth with her cooking skills. That's basically how it boils down for men as we get older.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Lila said:


> But isn't (this) judging someone by their physical appearance?


In many cases a persons physical appearance reflects the choices they have made. Clothes especially. 

It is possible for a person to dress attractively without ever glancing at a Fashion article. Last years fashion was every bit as attractive as this years fashion. Certainly the judgement is not fool proof. It is even true that many women choose clothes that they like without ever thinking of the industry behind it. 

Some people may make the choice to dress in accordance with the current fashion without violating their own morals or ethics. To be accepted in their profession for example. Or because it just isn't worth the difficulty of avoiding it. 

In other words a person can be of high quality and can be making good moral and ethical choices and still have some red flags. Red flags are indicators, not evidence. Anyhoo

I'm quite happy that you are succeeding in dating.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Lila said:


> Please @Deejo, lets not go there again.. I think we beat "dat a$$" to death 😄


Roger that, @Lila.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I've never understood how SMV applies to anyone except sex workers, trying to set rates for services.


Then I won't try to convince you to take any red pills.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> In many cases a persons physical appearance reflects the choices they have made. Clothes especially.
> 
> It is possible for a person to dress attractively without ever glancing at a Fashion article. Last years fashion was every bit as attractive as this years fashion. Certainly the judgement is not fool proof. It is even true that many women choose clothes that they like without ever thinking of the industry behind it.
> 
> ...



Fashion is a red flag? Wow.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> In many cases a persons physical appearance reflects the choices they have made. Clothes especially.
> 
> It is possible for a person to dress attractively without ever glancing at a Fashion article. Last years fashion was every bit as attractive as this years fashion. Certainly the judgement is not fool proof. It is even true that many women choose clothes that they like without ever thinking of the industry behind it.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure we're off on a tangent from the initial OP intent, for my part I apologize. 

But, regarding men and choice of clothes as all know it's a mixed bag regarding:

Fitting in to your corporate team....ask any man how many white and blue shirts they have, sprinkled in with some other colors but still suit shirt quality. 

And, how many gray and navy suits, with variations among gray, blue, maybe an olive, and of course black.

But, many, like me, are suit or slacks during day, jeans afterwards as quick as can. Back to "me".

Men can be "judged" just as quickly as women in clothes.

Men know put suits guys and jeans guys in a meeting and it will be assumed the suits are running things. 

And mostly true. Not always but mostly. 

In my younger days, because I "looked the part" in a suit, I was addressed as the leader in a group of suits, and that was a draw back because our upper management were "offended" when I had to divert initial introductions to the right parties. 

I had to fix that by always guiding intros if I was at the big table. Then my life got better. 

Some "bosses" found it not a problem just entertaining, but others actually had issues. 

Human nature at its best.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I used to value a woman who could pleasure me with her mouth skills. Now I value a woman who can pleasure my mouth with her cooking skills. That's basically how it boils down for men as we get older.


Speak for yourself.

I'm a helluva' cook....


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lila said:


> I agree that appearance loses some of it's luster once people actually get to know each other. The problem is finding to people IRL is almost impossible. Dating sites seems to be the only way that people date these days.


I admit I've been out of the dating loop for decades but is it really that bad?

I meet a lot of people that I probably could date if I was available but since I'm not looking, maybe I just don't know.

I have noticed that when I was searching for a partner, years ago, and I was a little too hungry for it, it seemed harder to find someone then when I wasn't looking.

It seems people just kind of fall in the lap when I'm just living life.

I think the pressure to find someone is a very negative force against successfully finding someone.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've often wondered if the red pill guys have other market values: are there "friend market values" (you get points for having a pickup, or a nice beach house)? 





NobodySpecial said:


> Then I won't try to convince you to take any red pills.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I've often wondered if the red pill guys have other market values: are there "friend market values" (you get points for having a pickup, or a nice beach house)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I've often wondered if the red pill guys know how pathetic they really are…


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I feel like dating apps have been an utter failure in living up to their potential. With all the available information it should be possible to do a much better job of matching people to each other. Instead a lot seems appearance based - which was already available before we had all this technology.

So much is based on the photo. I've often wondered what sort of photo I would use. Any one is going to give a very distorted image of what I am like. (this is even a problem in linked-in). 

I'm starting to believe in match-makers......

I feel like someone is going to make billions of dollars creating a dating app that actually *matches* people. If a site were *completely* trustworthy, people could give it all sorts of information about themselves. The problem is the need to keep people from simply lying in order to get a date. (among many other problems). (this is very similar to the job resume problem where people will lie like crazy in order to get an interview).




Lila said:


> There was a great article I read talking about the dating app culture and the negative effects it is having on society, specifically disenfranchising a very large portion of the singles population. They blame it partly on the Paradox of Choice and partly on the false sense of abundance that online dating sells.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that appearance loses some of it's luster once people actually get to know each other. The problem is finding to people IRL is almost impossible. Dating sites seems to be the only way that people date these days.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Maybe you don't want to discuss here (its your thread), but what makes you a good match for some people. It sounds like your appearance is OK but not exceptional (based on what you have said, but I bet you are underestimating). 

So, what should potential dates know about you. And the closely related question - how do you decide who to date. Other than appearance, how do you choose?

I'm considering how I would present myself (I'm long term married so not going to), to seem interesting to women. It turns out that in general I am, but I don't see how I would describe that in a few words or a picture. 

Maybe for many people, online dating in its current form just doesn't work and they need to look at other options. 

Maybe you need to find some friends and go into business designing an online dating site that actually works. :smile2: A site for people who don't believe in SMV, but in matching. 




Lila said:


> Lol no. I'm not hot. I am probably on the lower end of average for my age. My body is okay (Im carrying extra weight but it seems to live in the right places on my body) but I am not "pretty" (didn't win the genetic lottery). I do dress nice, wear heals (lol), wear make up, have great hair (I do have to give myself props on that one), and take care of my skin (thanks to the dermatologist). Just an average person.
> 
> I have two other single friends. Neither of them date. I think one would have zero problems finding another man if she got out there. She's my definition of a Quality Woman in the romantic sense. She is happily cloistered at home reading her books. The other is a super successful workaholic single mom who is thinking possibly that she may want to start researching the possibility of dating again. Yeah, I highly doubt it. So I'm left to figure out if my qualities make me eligible to enter the dating pool I wish to enter. If not, then I may as well give it up.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm not sure where this rabbit trail is leading. The original poster has made it clear that she is not in a dating a crisis. In fact, she mentioned she had several dates lined up. So I'm not sure why all of the sudden we are trying to get her to examine what is wrong with her. It sounded like she was just curious more than anything else.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Fashion is a red flag? Wow.


If the dress fits . . .


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see fashion as a form of communication, though one that is often confusing, and in many cases may be limited by money. 

Expensive clothes are like expensive cars. I have no problem with people buying them if they fit in their budgets, but have negative feelings abotu people who overextend themselves on those things.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I see fashion as a form of communication, though one that is often confusing, and in many cases may be limited by money.
> 
> Expensive clothes are like expensive cars. I have no problem with people buying them if they fit in their budgets, but have negative feelings abotu people who overextend themselves on those things.


I, personally, have no interest in fashion. It is something of a joke in my family. But the notion that there is a flag of moral corruption around it is nonsense.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I admit I've been out of the dating loop for decades but is it really that bad?
> 
> I meet a lot of people that I probably could date if I was available but since I'm not looking, maybe I just don't know.


It's not impossible to meet people IRL but it is difficult. It's a product of the times.



> I have noticed that when I was searching for a partner, years ago, and I was a little too hungry for it, it seemed harder to find someone then when I wasn't looking.
> 
> It seems people just kind of fall in the lap when I'm just living life.
> 
> I think the pressure to find someone is a very negative force against successfully finding someone.


I keep hearing this but don't know if it is relevant to older people. Do you think it would work out the same now, at this point in your life?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I feel like dating apps have been an utter failure in living up to their potential. With all the available information it should be possible to do a much better job of matching people to each other. Instead a lot seems appearance based - which was already available before we had all this technology.
> 
> So much is based on the photo. I've often wondered what sort of photo I would use. Any one is going to give a very distorted image of what I am like. (this is even a problem in linked-in).
> 
> I'm starting to believe in match-makers......


I think it has less to do with the service used as more to do with the current attitude on dating. There are match making services where I live but their reviews are horrible. Much like the dating apps, they are in the business to make money. They will "match" people together just to say they met their contractual requirements. Few clients actually end up matched to people they actually like or are even remotely compatible. 



> I feel like someone is going to make billions of dollars creating a dating app that actually *matches* people. If a site were *completely* trustworthy, people could give it all sorts of information about themselves. The problem is the need to keep people from simply lying in order to get a date. (among many other problems). (this is very similar to the job resume problem where people will lie like crazy in order to get an interview).


I will always say that meeting people in real life is the best way to go. I don't even now where to start with a dating app that wouldn't turn into what we currently have.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lila said:


> It's not impossible to meet people IRL but it is difficult. It's a product of the times.
> 
> 
> 
> I keep hearing this but don't know if it is relevant to older people. Do you think it would work out the same now, at this point in your life?


Since I never pursue banter or flirting to the conclusion, I don't know how hard it would be.

I do seem to run across a lot of potential date material by just being easy going and getting people to laugh.

I really enjoy life and I like helping others enjoy it as well with no strings attached. It seems to attract quite a few people.

I'm also not hugely picky. If someone is nice, clean, healthy and has a good attitude, I don't worry a lot about age, ethnicity or social status.

I probably could have gotten a date with a 26 year old black associate this last week if I was single.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Maybe you don't want to discuss here (its your thread), but what makes you a good match for some people. It sounds like your appearance is OK but not exceptional (based on what you have said, but I bet you are underestimating).
> 
> So, what should potential dates know about you. And the closely related question - how do you decide who to date. Other than appearance, how do you choose?
> 
> ...


I wrote this in the single thread after a friend said something to me which prompted this thread 

_I mean I have a good career, am mentally and sexually healthy, have a pretty good co-parenting relationship with the ex, and a teenager who is honest to God a gift (I don't know how I got so lucky). I cook, I clean, I manage my financials pretty well, and do most of the other things that go along with normal day to day living. I lead a relatively uncomplicated and stable (see: boring) life. But I don't know if these things make a modern day high quality woman.​_
As far as whom I choose to date, well, I am not looking for anything more than I can provide a potential partner. I don't shoot for the fences as far as appearance goes. When I was online dating (I deleted my profile in February) I went for average looking guys within my target age range who were gainfully employed, mentally healthy, didn't smoke or have addictions or criminal records, and seemed to live relatively stable lives (I stayed the hell away from any guy who talked about obstacle course racing, going to the gym, crossfit, or had hobbies coming out the ying yang). My biggest picky points was no "never been marrieds", no "children under 10", and locals only. 

And don't get me wrong.....I don't have a problem getting dates but just not the kind of dates I would like to attract. Maybe I am shooting for the fences based on what I have to offer? Don't know.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Hey wait a minute. Isn't the argument around here that the only thing men need is a big pocket book and some "edge" because SMV and age and something or other? 😉 😉


Good looks increase opportunities for love, life and work for men as well as women.

There may be some difference between genders about what matters after the opportunities exist.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Lol no. I'm not hot. I am probably on the lower end of average for my age. My body is okay (Im carrying extra weight but it seems to live in the right places on my body) but I am not "pretty" (didn't win the genetic lottery). I do dress nice, wear heals (lol), wear make up, have great hair (I do have to give myself props on that one), and take care of my skin (thanks to the dermatologist). Just an average person.
> 
> I have two other single friends. Neither of them date. I think one would have zero problems finding another man if she got out there. She's my definition of a Quality Woman in the romantic sense. She is happily cloistered at home reading her books. The other is a super successful workaholic single mom who is thinking possibly that she may want to start researching the possibility of dating again. Yeah, I highly doubt it. So I'm left to figure out if my qualities make me eligible to enter the dating pool I wish to enter. If not, then I may as well give it up.


I find it very hard to believe that you are on the lower end of average for your age.

The average (for both men and women) over the age of 25 is exceptionally low (women 18-25 seem to be an exception).

I would imagine that you easily qualify as "acceptable" to all but the most discriminating men (most of whom I imagine would unwisely be looking at younger women).


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Lila said:


> I wrote this in the single thread after a friend said something to me which prompted this thread
> 
> _I mean I have a good career, am mentally and sexually healthy, have a pretty good co-parenting relationship with the ex, and a teenager who is honest to God a gift (I don't know how I got so lucky). I cook, I clean, I manage my financials pretty well, and do most of the other things that go along with normal day to day living. I lead a relatively uncomplicated and stable (see: boring) life. But I don't know if these things make a modern day high quality woman.​_
> As far as whom I choose to date, well, I am not looking for anything more than I can provide a potential partner. I don't shoot for the fences as far as appearance goes. When I was online dating (I deleted my profile in February) I went for average looking guys within my target age range who were gainfully employed, mentally healthy, didn't smoke or have addictions or criminal records, and seemed to live relatively stable lives (I stayed the hell away from any guy who talked about obstacle course racing, going to the gym, crossfit, or had hobbies coming out the ying yang). My biggest picky points was no "never been marrieds", no "children under 10", and locals only.
> ...


Now we are getting somewhere. I think you should add kayaking to approved hobby list. But other than that looks good.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that IRL is better, but I'm still fascinated by the dating app concept because there seems to be so much potential for improvement. It would take a huge investment - but there are companies out there with money to burn for this type if thing.

I could see people answering very long questionnaires, both on interests, and psych tests. Then a scheme where you report back on the success of dates (by various measures),and that gets feed into a big ML algorithm that gradually learns what sort of matching makes people happy. The machine learning would pattern match pretty quickly to the sorts of things people say, but don't really mean.

If people were not concerned about privacy (but they should be) could connect to FB and the like.

The profit motive would have to be set up carefully - though maybe allowing advertisers anodized data is enough to support it (like FB).

(sorry, I'm a nerd so I look for technical solutions). As you said, the real answer is likely to be to find people in real life. 







Lila said:


> I think it has less to do with the service used as more to do with the current attitude on dating. There are match making services where I live but their reviews are horrible. Much like the dating apps, they are in the business to make money. They will "match" people together just to say they met their contractual requirements. Few clients actually end up matched to people they actually like or are even remotely compatible.
> 
> 
> 
> I will always say that meeting people in real life is the best way to go. I don't even now where to start with a dating app that wouldn't turn into what we currently have.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> I agree that IRL is better, but I'm still fascinated by the dating app concept because there seems to be so much potential for improvement. It would take a huge investment - but there are companies out there with money to burn for this type if thing.
> 
> I could see people answering very long questionnaires, both on interests, and psych tests.* Then a scheme where you report back on the success of dates (by various measures*),and that gets feed into a big ML algorithm that gradually learns what sort of matching makes people happy. The machine learning would pattern match pretty quickly to the sorts of things people say, but don't really mean.
> 
> ...


Hold on Lilac only gave me a 3 star review! That's It, I'm going to smear her profile.
It only works if people play fair.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed, its tricky - but there are some similar sites that work quite well (like tripadvisor). Lots of potential problems, but I'm imagining a substantial investment to get it going.



Mr. Nail said:


> Hold on Lilac only gave me a 3 star review! That's It, I'm going to smear her profile.
> It only works if people play fair.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

tripadvisor is getting very good. I remember the early years. I also remember the reviews wars on ebay. One of my wifes jobs solicited for customer reviews, but they really graded the locations on perfect scores vs non perfect scores, negating the bulk of the data they collected. I don't spend much effort on surveys after that. But onward . . . .

The personality test what did you have in mind? Thje wonderlic? or just a wonderlic sized personality survey?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'll circle back and answer the initial question.

Fun. 
Comfortable in her skin. 
Knows what she DOESN'T want.
High emotional IQ

From an age perspective I'm not sure it matters, but I would presume if you are over 40 and you don't manifest those qualities, its unlikely you are going to.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I find it very hard to believe that you are on the lower end of average for your age.
> 
> The average (for both men and women) over the age of 25 is exceptionally low (women 18-25 seem to be an exception).
> 
> I would imagine that you easily qualify as "acceptable" to all but the most discriminating men (most of whom I imagine would unwisely be looking at younger women).


Thanks for the vote of confidence. I can only gauge my appearance based on feedback I get. Let's just say I get a whole lot of "you have a magnetic personality"


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I agree that IRL is better, but I'm still fascinated by the dating app concept because there seems to be so much potential for improvement. It would take a huge investment - but there are companies out there with money to burn for this type if thing.
> 
> I could see people answering very long questionnaires, both on interests, and psych tests. Then a scheme where you report back on the success of dates (by various measures),and that gets feed into a big ML algorithm that gradually learns what sort of matching makes people happy. The machine learning would pattern match pretty quickly to the sorts of things people say, but don't really mean.
> 
> ...


The goal of dating apps is not to match people to each other. That would mean they are working themselves out of business. They want to make money.

The goal of dating apps is to give people just enough encouragement to keep them hooked on the app as long as possible. It's like casino gambling. The house knows it has to reward a few in order to entice a lot to spend their money. Same thing with dating apps.

If you want to design a legitimate dating service, then you would either have to be a not for profit or you'd have to make it expensive to join in the first place. I would guess there are people who would pay a lot to meet the right person.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It might be possible to use the FB / Google model where the money doesn't come from dating at all but from the information. (people put up with it for FB, so it isn't a stretch for a dating app) . So then what the company cares about is lots of positive comments that send other people to their site .




Lila said:


> The goal of dating apps is not to match people to each other. That would mean they are working themselves out of business. They want to make money.
> 
> The goal of dating apps is to give people just enough encouragement to keep them hooked on the app as long as possible. It's like casino gambling. The house knows it has to reward a few in order to entice a lot to spend their money. Same thing with dating apps.
> 
> If you want to design a legitimate dating service, then you would either have to be a not for profit or you'd have to make it expensive to join in the first place. I would guess there are people who would pay a lot to meet the right person.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> It might be possible to use the FB / Google model where the money doesn't come from dating at all but from the information. (people put up with it for FB, so it isn't a stretch for a dating app) . So then what the company cares about is lots of positive comments that send other people to their site .


They have that now. Tinder, Bumble, OKC, PoF, Hinge....those are some of the ones I can think of that offer free services. I don't know anyone who actually pays for those accounts. Match and Eharmony are about the only ones I know of where you actually have to pay for the service.

I believe it's Hinge that requires an FB account but don't quote me on that. Coffee Meet Bagel might too.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Speak for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a helluva' cook....


I'm suffering from premature edification... I use an instant pot 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> The idea was prompted by what someone said to me but it's more than that. I started the thread just to see what the men of TAM say their priorities are with regards to a Quality Woman, however the lists I'm seeing here are not what I'm recognizing as the priorities IRL and I'm wondering the disconnect.
> 
> 
> 
> I am wish that were true @2ntnuf.


The disconnect is probably online and public versus in private and under the influence of reality and oxytocin.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Lila said:


> You are one of several men here who have either not mentioned physical attractiveness or downplayed it as a necessary quality.
> 
> Would you date/marry an "ugly" (totally subjective but you know what I mean) woman if she had character, humor, self discipline, curiosity, uniqueness?


My original reply was based on your first two questions and I stand by those opinions.

As for the above question,I'm in agreement with what I believe ellis said regarding having to have a physical attraction. By the way,"ugly" is one of my least favorite words in the English language,but I do know what you mean. I've lived through a lot of different views on attractiveness from the 50's on up and I've been in various relationships with women of different looks,body types etc.,but everyone of them I got to know first.

It's funny,but there was one redhead that my friends all found gorgeous. Me,not so much,until I saw her without makeup. Freckles are appealing to me,but she had played them down. I got to know her after that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> It is absolutely more prominent now but I think physical attractiveness has always been the basis for judging people throughout history. The difference is that we can judge more people faster virtually.
> 
> You mention that it is more important for women that men but it still exists for men. How do you think it has affected men?


Well it's different right? It's seems to be more to do with your virility which can translate into things like being tall, right now having a beard seems to be a thing. But I think for men there are things that are not appearance driven that also still represent that, such a earning power. I think, in general that gives us and advantage that women just don't have. But maybe I am wrong.

It think it's obvious that it's driven the rise in plastic surgery in men. Also I think people would be surprised how many men use steroids.

Overall I think it affects men the same way it affects women maybe be just on a smaller scale. We all want to be seen as attractive right? Well most of us do anyway. I actually think there is something wrong if you don't care about that. To me it's not much different then not working, or not wearing deodorant. It's your responsibility to be the best you you can be in my mind. Maybe not obsess about it, but at least give a crap. 

I will admit it's much more pleasant being with people who give a crap then people who don't.

I think where men have another advantage (though it can be a burden to) is, generally speaking, the social norm is still for us to be the pursuer and I doubt that will change. It's part of our hunting instinct I think. So even if you are unattractive you can still hunt you can still be proactive. I think it must be very hard to be an unattractive women who has no suitors. Though even then it's not that you are powerless. There are always things you can do to improve your chances. Even plastic surgery which I think makes perfect sense in some cases. 

Anyway ... 2 cents


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I've often wondered if the red pill guys have other market values: are there "friend market values" (you get points for having a pickup, or a nice beach house)?


I always thought it's still sex count. >


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I think that fashionable women, especially those who obsess about it, have made a choice to participate in a industry devoid of ethics and with the morality of an alley cat. Kind of like the diamond industry.
> 
> The idea that your clothes say something about you is not new. I like this one.
> 
> Joe Vs. the Volcano


Obsess yes, but there is a lot of good about fashion too. If done right it can help a women and men present themselves in the best possible light. If you are struggling to improve your appearance it's a good source to turn to to help you with that, just like any other industry that specializes in something. 

One if the things l very much like and appreciate about my wife is what a great dresser she is. I noticed that right away, and I liked it. 

I don't see the difference then that and getting the latest car or game console. Even if is done purely from a vanity point of view lots of things are done for vanities sake. 

Your clothes say to me say if you give a crap. If you took the time to care how you project yourself to other people. Besides that it's another peace in your arsenal that can be used to show who you are, make you stand out. 

To each his own.


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## cashybum (Aug 16, 2012)

I found this thread quite interesting! I didn’t read all the replies, but I find myself pondering this topic often.... 

How important are the stereotypical gender roles to most men? For example: It’s pretty standard to assume the women are often in charge of the household duties, while the man is typically responsible for household repairs, outside yard chores, vehicle maintenance etc...

I’m definitely not the Martha Stewart or Betty Crocker type...I hate all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping etc. I may look really girly, but I much prefer the “man duties”. 

I’ve seen attractiveness and “put together” mentioned a lot. I do my makeup most days and love to dress up like a normal person to go out and do normal people things... but 80% of the time I wear a ball cap and clothes covered in dirt/grease/oil, with bits of hay in my hair by the end of the day, everyday.

Does it bother men if you’re dating a girl who can “out-man” you? With all the man buns and “manskaping” running a muck these days, it’s not hard to unintentionally hurt a snowflake’s pride lol. 

One last question: what are men’s deal breakers when it comes to choosing your dates?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I simply hate that you are having difficulty and hurting emotionally.

You are a quality woman as far as I can tell.

I wish you wouldn't jump through any hoops or feel any level of desperation.

You don't deserve it.

It is impossible to know every nuance about your life over the internet but you really haven't come off as anything but classy here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

cashybum said:


> I found this thread quite interesting! I didn’t read all the replies, but I find myself pondering this topic often....
> 
> How important are the stereotypical gender roles to most men? For example: It’s pretty standard to assume the women are often in charge of the household duties, while the man is typically responsible for household repairs, outside yard chores, vehicle maintenance etc...
> 
> ...


Ohh. I like this one!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think in a relationship, both people should do their fair share of work but don't care how that is divided - except personally I want to have a full time job. That works with my wife having a full time job as well, since there is enough money for maid service. 

I haven't dated in ages, but for me the big deal breakers are:

Unhappy. (some people are just unhappy in general).

Always needing rescuing. (playing White Knight is fine once in a while, but not all the time).

Landmines: someone who is easily upset by comments that were never intended to upset. (remembering a friend and his girlfriend out with us for the evening. We were talking about what we'd do if we won the lottery. He said, "fast cars and fast women". She was horribly upset all evening that he would think of other women......... 







cashybum said:


> I found this thread quite interesting! I didn’t read all the replies, but I find myself pondering this topic often....
> 
> How important are the stereotypical gender roles to most men? For example: It’s pretty standard to assume the women are often in charge of the household duties, while the man is typically responsible for household repairs, outside yard chores, vehicle maintenance etc...
> 
> ...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I admit I've been out of the dating loop for decades but is it *really that bad*?
> 
> I meet a lot of people that I probably could date if I was available but since I'm not looking, maybe I just don't know.
> 
> ...


Depends on your objective. To find a long term match and partner maybe. Took me years and years. To find a date and someone to have a good time with not my experience. I had a blast dating!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Depends on your objective. To find a long term match and partner maybe. Took me years and years. To find a date and someone to have a good time with not my experience. I had a blast dating!


That sounds about right. I really doubt most of the ladies I could get a date with would be a future Mrs. C.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I simply hate that you are having difficulty and hurting emotionally.
> 
> You are a quality woman as far as I can tell.
> 
> ...


Thanks Conan. 

I am not necessarily hurting emotionally but I am struggling with this new 'normal'. 

It seems some can just ride the big waves and just go with the flow. I question everything. I won't attempt the wave until I've evaluated every wave that came before and watched a few people wipe out. I want to avoid wiping out as much as possible, or at the very least avoid drowning in the process. If it looks like I'm not capable of riding the waves, then I need to accept it, stop wasting time at the beach, and do something else.

That's kind of where I'm at with dating. I have relationship goals. Right now I' go on dates just to get out of the house. I have 2 guys with whom I do this. Both great guys but there's no future with either so I don't invest in them romantically. They provide companionship. I am pretty positive one is about to deliver the sex speech which will be the end of that relationship.

Men typically want Quality Women for committed relationships. What is it that makes a Quality Woman and do I have the natural talents, skills, appearance to be that woman or should I just call it quits? 

I was advised via pm that their definition of Quality Women (in a romantic sense) have a passion for adventure. A joie we vivre so to speak. I know I am missing that in my life.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I think where men have another advantage (though it can be a burden to) is, generally speaking, the social norm is still for us to be the pursuer and I doubt that will change. It's part of our hunting instinct I think. So even if you are unattractive you can still hunt you can still be proactive.
> 
> I think it must be very hard to be an unattractive women who has no suitors. Though even then it's not that you are powerless. There are always things you can do to improve your chances. Even plastic surgery which I think makes perfect sense in some cases.


Aside from plastic surgery (which is on my long term goals list) what are some other things unattractive women can do to improve their chances?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Aside from plastic surgery (which is on my long term goals list) what are some other things unattractive women can do to improve their chances?


OK, not trying to come off as a ****, but when did it become so bad to just go out there and be yourself? If it is not good enough for some dude, than so be it, is that really a guy you want to be with anyhow? IDK, trying to change yourself and who you are to hopefully make someone else happy just seems like a recipe for disaster. Take care of yourself, be yourself, and if it is meant for you to find the right guy you will. Don't let that d!ck ex of yours dictate who you need to be as a person.

I do understand that I can't quite relate to what you are going through right now. I was actually discussing with friend a few days ago (he is having marital problems) and honestly the thought of me ever becoming single makes me cringe (not the single part, I would be OK with that, the idea of dating again would make me nauseous lol). Given my personality, I wouldn't even bother as I have always been content to be alone.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, not trying to come off as a ****, but when did it become so bad to just go out there and be yourself? If it is not good enough for some dude, than so be it, is that really a guy you want to be with anyhow? IDK, trying to change yourself and who you are to hopefully make someone else happy just seems like a recipe for disaster.


The short answer....our priorities as a society are ****ed up. We put a whole lot of emphasis on things that in the long run don't really mean much. And I agree....it SUCKS!

I can choose to play by the rules or not play the game. And if I choose to not play, then I have to accept that I will be alone the rest of my life. THAT is not something that I have yet come to terms with. It depresses me to no end so I choose to ignore it. 



EllisRedding said:


> Take care of yourself, be yourself, and if it is meant for you to find the right guy you will.


Thanks mom :smile2: "Lo que esta para ti, nadie te lo quita". Yep, heard it a millions time if I've heard it once. Pisses me off each and every time I hear it. I tell my mom that all those people hoping to retire on their lottery winnings are saying that too.



EllisRedding said:


> I do understand that I can't quite relate to what you are going through right now. I was actually discussing with friend a few days ago (he is having marital problems) and honestly the thought of me ever becoming single makes me cringe (not the single part, I would be OK with that, the idea of dating again would make me nauseous lol).* Given my personality, I wouldn't even bother as I have always been content to be alone.*


I think it bothers me because I am not content being alone. I have a good life and have been very blessed. I will not give that up to avoid being alone BUT I can't give up. I know if I do, I will change into a shell of the person I am today. I feel like I'm in a no win situation.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> The short answer....our priorities as a society are ****ed up. We put a whole lot of emphasis on things that in the long run don't really mean much. And I agree....it SUCKS!
> 
> I can choose to play by the rules or not play the game. And if I choose to not play, then I have to accept that I will be alone the rest of my life. THAT is not something that I have yet come to terms with. It depresses me to no end so I choose to ignore it.


It really is sad that any sort of game needs to be played at all, but I guess it is what it is nowadays




Lila said:


> Thanks mom :smile2:















Lila said:


> I think it bothers me because I am not content being alone. I have a good life and have been very blessed. I will not give that up to avoid being alone BUT I can't give up. I know if I do, I will change into a shell of the person I am today. I feel like I'm in a no win situation.


I can definitely understand this. I don't think there is anything wrong with not wanting to be alone. You could argue that with my mindset, the downside is I could end up missing out on someone who could make me happy, simply b/c being alone is good enough for me.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I remember hearing some old wives tale about being able to put fruit in a certain type of pan filled with water to weed out the bruised/rotten fruit. Because the good fruit (I think ) will rise to the top. I remember thinking, "What if all the fruit is bruised?"

This seems to be a good commentary on a lot of the dating world.

My mom always said, "quality attracts quality." But what if the people around us have become to shallow and self-serving there IS no quality....

Ugh, if my husband gets hit by a bus, I am joining a convent.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

The nebulous ideal of wanting to be a "quality" woman is largely illusory.
@Lila Since you're the only one who can be great at it, I think you ought to strive to just be yourself.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> The short answer....our priorities as a society are ****ed up. We put a whole lot of emphasis on things that in the long run don't really mean much. And I agree....it SUCKS!


It does not have to suck if you choose not to play "society's" games. Society is not one borg-like hive mind that makes decisions. Society is each and every one of us in aggregate. 



> I can choose to play by the rules or not play the game. And if I choose to not play, then I have to accept that I will be alone the rest of my life. THAT is not something that I have yet come to terms with. It depresses me to no end so I choose to ignore it.


That's actually not true. I really don't mean to be mean. But is there any chance that it is not about playing the game. Could it be that you are a dolly downer?

Another possibility is that you live somewhere that has backward built in to the mentality.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I remember hearing some old wives tale about being able to put fruit in a certain type of pan filled with water to weed out the bruised/rotten fruit. Because the good fruit (I think ) will rise to the top. I remember thinking, "What if all the fruit is bruised?"
> 
> This seems to be a good commentary on a lot of the dating world.
> 
> ...


Although I don't want to believe this isn't true, based on what I'm seeing I'm going to have to agree.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Personal said:


> The nebulous ideal of wanting to be a "quality" woman is largely illusory.
> 
> @Lila Since you're the only one who can be great at it, I think you ought to strive to just be yourself.


I'm feeling quite philosophical today so I'm going to ask the question.....what's the benefit of striving to be oneself if being oneself does not get you what you want?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> Aside from plastic surgery (which is on my long term goals list) what are some other things unattractive women can do to improve their chances?


I would say it's same thing for men and women. 

Exercise and get in the realistically best shape as you can for your size and age, eat well, dress for your body type. 

Think of your appearance like advertising. 

Dress for the type of man you are trying to attract but in a way that you enjoy as well (kind of a balance). What I have learned is there are a kind of male archetype that in general women are attracted to when it comes to clothes and stuff, that same thing holds true for men. I think lots of men like archetypal feminine clothing. I know for instance I love seeing my wife in a dress, I don't even know why. I think because it's a very feminine (though who know is 20 years) thing.

Do what YOU are doing here ask people (men you trust) what they think. 

She shouldn't assume she knows what she looks best in or that she is unattractive, if she is having trouble it may be that she is coming off disinterested because you are nervous for instance. Don't be defensive about it, look at it like learning.

Makeup seems to be a good way to empathize your best facial features, if she doesn't know how to do it, learn and practice. Go to someone who does know even a store if she has to. Now some men like a natural look (and someone will probably chime in about this, I hate makeup!) but if you have very bad skin for instance maybe you can't pull that off, guess that guy isn't the one for you. That's OK. Not everyone is Alicia Keys. I think Alicia Keys looked better when she was wearing makeup. 

If she doesn't feel comfortable about it, practice to be outgoing and a little flirty. I have noticed that lots of men are clueless when women are into them. Some need to be hit on the head with it. 

Finally dating is a numbers game, so get out there the more people you meet the better chance you have to find someone you click with. She shouldn't assume the problem is her, or take it personal if it's not a fit. 

Also it may be where she is looking. I suspect she will have a better chance if she is in a place where there are like minded people who she has things in common with. This will give them a starting point to work with. So start getting involved with things that draws her interest where there will be other like minded people. 

It's a great big world.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It does not have to suck if you choose not to play "society's" games. Society is not one borg-like hive mind that makes decisions. Society is each and every one of us in aggregate.


You say it doesn't suck but you don't say why it doesn't suck. I can give you reasons, and have, as to why it does suck. Can you please tell me why you think it doesn't suck?




> That's actually not true. I really don't mean to be mean. But is there any chance that it is not about playing the game. Could it be that you are a dolly downer?


I am far from Dolly Downer in real life. The descriptions used by most to describe me is "magnetic personality", 'energetic', 'fun', 'outgoing'. You all read what I'm feeling and thinking but I very rarely let anyone see that part of me because I get it, it's unflattering and unattractive (in the general sense). 



> Another possibility is that you live somewhere that has backward built in to the mentality.


Maybe. I live in Atlanta.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Will not being yourself, really get you what you want?

My ex-wife turned out to be a poor quality partner for me, while I turned out to be a poor quality partner for her.

Yet both of us have gone on to have better long term sexual relationships, that have happily lasted more than two decades for both of us. Since while continuing to be ourselves, we have both turned out to be quality partners for each of our current spouses.

Will trying to be something you are not, be interminably sustainable and will such effort work well in the long run?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> You say it doesn't suck but you don't say why it doesn't suck. I can give you reasons, and have, as to why it does suck. Can you please tell me why you think it doesn't suck?


You said society is this and that. And THAT sucks. I guess choose the stuff you like and works for you and don't deal in the suck.



> I am far from Dolly Downer in real life. The descriptions used by most to describe me is "magnetic personality", 'energetic', 'fun', 'outgoing'. You all read what I'm feeling and thinking but I very rarely let anyone see that part of me because I get it, it's unflattering and unattractive (in the general sense).


Cool



> Maybe. I live in Atlanta.


Huh. The rest of GA, I'd think. But Atlanta. You can always tell a place by how they treat their LGBT peeps. And Atlanta gets a good rep.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Personal said:


> Will not being yourself, really get you what you want?
> 
> My ex-wife turned out to be a poor quality partner for me, while I turned out to be a poor quality partner for her.
> 
> ...


You have an amazing story @Personal. 🙂

And you're right. Changes made under duress never seem to stick especially not the older we get. I am just afraid of becoming that old cat lady so much so that I refuse to be around women like that. It's like I'm seeing me in the future and it freaks me out.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Huh. The rest of GA, I'd think. But Atlanta. You can always tell a place by how they treat their LGBT peeps. And Atlanta gets a good rep.


It's a cool place to live but an awful place to date. I think the paradox of choice and false sense of abundance give everyone the idea that " this is good, but I can do better".


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Bottom line is if you are looking for a relationship and the guys you are currently seeing aren't then move on. You both have different goals and it won't work out. 

What are you looking for and what do you bring to the table to attract that archetype? Sometimes you have to adjust your standards if you aren't catching any fish.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not a big fan of plastic surgery. It may move people more towards traditional beauty, but it tends to erase the uniqueness that to me makes many women beautiful to me.

If have no problem if it is correcting an actual deformity, but I think it rarely overall improves the appearance of someone who is already OK looking.

To be clear, I'm not saying people should not do it - its their choice, but I recommend against it. 




Lila said:


> Aside from plastic surgery (which is on my long term goals list) what are some other things unattractive women can do to improve their chances?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Bottom line is if you are looking for a relationship and the guys you are currently seeing aren't then move on. You both have different goals and it won't work out.


I know the men I am going on dates now have no future but they still are fun. While I'm waiting on Mr. Right to come along, there's nothing wrong with enjoying myself is there? 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What are you looking for and what do you bring to the table to attract that archetype? Sometimes you have to adjust your standards if you aren't catching any fish.


I posted this earlier:



> I mean I have a good career, am mentally and sexually healthy, have a pretty good co-parenting relationship with the ex, and a teenager who is honest to God a gift (I don't know how I got so lucky). I cook, I clean, I manage my financials pretty well, and do most of the other things that go along with normal day to day living. I lead a relatively uncomplicated and stable (see: boring) life. But I don't know if these things make a modern day high quality woman.
> 
> 
> As far as whom I choose to date, well, I am not looking for anything more than I can provide a potential partner. I don't shoot for the fences as far as appearance goes. When I was online dating (I deleted my profile in February) I went for average looking guys within my target age range who were gainfully employed, mentally healthy, didn't smoke or have addictions or criminal records, and seemed to live relatively stable lives (I stayed the hell away from any guy who talked about obstacle course racing, going to the gym, crossfit, or had hobbies coming out the ying yang). My biggest picky points was no "never been marrieds", no "children under 10", and locals only.



I sure hope I don't have to adjust my standards much more. I'd rather be the cat lady than settle for an unemployed drug addict with a criminal record. Just saying.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I'm not a big fan of plastic surgery. It may move people more towards traditional beauty, but it tends to erase the uniqueness that to me makes many women beautiful to me.
> 
> If have no problem if it is correcting an actual deformity, but I think it rarely overall improves the appearance of someone who is already OK looking.
> 
> ...


Yea plastic surgery, like trying to look younger, is a turn off for me. It just looks grotesque to me. Now if your nose got jacked up when you were younger then I can understand wanting to straighten it out.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lila said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is if you are looking for a relationship and the guys you are currently seeing aren't then move on. You both have different goals and it won't work out.
> ...


Well on the kid thing, I think it depends on your age range. If you are looking for guys in their mid 40's and 50's then you shouldn't have much of a problem. If you want someone in their 30's that could be hard.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well on the kid thing, I think it depends on your age range. If you are looking for guys in their mid 40's and 50's then you shouldn't have much of a problem. If you want someone in their 30's that could be hard.


Oh God no...no 30s. 40-early 50s.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think dating for fun is a very good approach. There is even a chance that a "fun" date will turn out to be more. 



Lila said:


> I know the men I am going on dates now have no future but they still are fun. While I'm waiting on Mr. Right to come along, there's nothing wrong with enjoying myself is there?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I think dating for fun is a very good approach. There is even a chance that a "fun" date will turn out to be more.


I enjoy going out but neither of the guys I'm going out with now will evolve into anything else. They are more than friends but less than "with benefits". We have dates but they aren't sexual in nature. They are just two lonely people having fun.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

You guys know almost 95% of people in Hollywood, the models and people generally thought of as the most beautiful people in the world men and women have had some form of plastic surgery right? Also most of the actors are using steroids. If done right you have no idea. You would probably shock most people at how many people have done it in some small way. 

Look at a so call all time natural beauties and they probably had plastic surgery.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sokillme said:


> You guys know almost 95% of people in Hollywood, the models and people generally thought of as the most beautiful people in the world men and women have had some form of plastic surgery right? Also most of the actors are using steroids. If done right you have no idea. You would probably shock most people at how many people have done it in some small way.
> 
> Look at a so call all time natural beauties and they probably had plastic surgery.


i don't think (or hope not) that anyone here is using Hollywood as a gauge for what is beauty / hot. It all comes down to money...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> I know the men I am going on dates now have no future but they still are fun. *While I'm waiting on Mr. Right to come along, there's nothing wrong with enjoying myself is there?
> *
> 
> 
> ...


Is it possible that quality men, or the men you believe are quality, are hanging out somewhere else or not hanging out at all, but doing something active?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> i don't think (or hope not) that anyone here is using Hollywood as a gauge for what is beauty / hot. It all comes down to money...


Ew. Right pics are ew ew ew.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Lila said:


> What characteristics make up a quality woman *in terms of a romantic partner*?
> 
> Does this definition change with age?


Quality is relative, but for me, will just describe the qualities my girlfriend has in abundance.

She is very young, but *mature* beyond her years. She understands *responsibility*, shows *self-respect*, holds high *values* for herself and others, and is *loyal* and *true* to her word. She has never lied to me, has always been *honest*, and understands the meaning of *trust* and what it takes it keep it. She is *intelligent* and can not only hold a conversation with people many years her senior, but has *goals* and *direction*, planning out her life and her future for success. She is *independent*, and does not need the help of others, let alone other men. She does not crave attention, as she is *secure* without any need of external validation. She shows *strength* during times of hardship and can be *relied upon* regardless of circumstances. She is *affectionate* and *loving* but remains *selfless* in showing it, never intruding on your space and never demanding it.

Quite frankly, for me, she's perfection.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila...I'm so sorry you are still struggling with your self esteem. I hope you get to a point where you feel really good about yourself and really strong and beautiful.

The thing is, a man is not going to "give" you that esteem. So even if a really great guy comes along and wants you and shows you good guys are still around...you're going to continue feeling low self esteem even in his presence.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Is it possible that quality men, or the men you believe are quality, are hanging out somewhere else or not hanging out at all, but doing something active?


It is possible. I live a rather mundane life.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > What characteristics make up a quality woman *in terms of a romantic partner*?
> ...


 @RandomDude, you are so in love 🙂. Your girlfriend is a very lucky lady.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila...I'm so sorry you are still struggling with your self esteem. I hope you get to a point where you feel really good about yourself and really strong and beautiful.
> 
> The thing is, a man is not going to "give" you that esteem. So even if a really great guy comes along and wants you and shows you good guys are still around...you're going to continue feeling low self esteem even in his presence.


But that's just it FW....I do feel good about a lot of things about myself. Strength, personality, intelligence, charisma those I have in bucketfuls. However I am pragmatic enough to know my weakest areas and one of those is physical appearance. 

I honestly don't expect a man to give me esteem. If I did I probably would be on anti depressants right now with as much rejection and other stuff that has happened to me. 

Is it more important to be realistic about one's qualities and how they reflect on our ability to attract others or to be unrealistic and constantly disappointed?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> But that's just it FW....I do feel good about a lot of things about myself. Strength, personality, intelligence, charisma those I have in bucketfuls. However I am pragmatic enough to know my weakest areas and one of those is physical appearance.
> 
> I honestly don't expect a man to give me esteem. If I did I probably would be on anti depressants right now with as much rejection and other stuff that has happened to me.
> 
> Is it more important to be realistic about one's qualities and how they reflect on our ability to attract others or to be unrealistic and constantly disappointed?


Look for all I know you could be totally wrong about yourself, but if you really feel down about it change it.

What are you doing to improve your physical appearance if you are not happy with it? 

What kind of shape are you in? Do you need to lose weight? How about make a plan. Change your eating habits and exercise. 

Have you had the same haircut for a while? Maybe you need to change it, maybe you need to find someone to help you change it? Maybe you need to get someone to teach you how do it, or do you makeup better or whatever it is.

How about your wardrobe. Do you know what fits your body style? Watch "What Not to Wear" or YouTube videos, that will teach you how to dress to your body type if you don't know how. Also clothes don't have to be expensive. My wife buys off the bargain racks and gets coupons from emails from stores she shops in. She gets whole outfits for like $10 some times. No guy is going to care that it is last years stuff. You will just look good. 

If you don't feel comfortable doing that do you have a friend whose style you admire? Ask them for help. 

My point is you are not powerless, there are things you can do to help you. Look if you knew you needed to get around but didn't know how to drive you would learn how to drive right?

Appearance is the same thing. Everyone who you admire and looks truly put together works at it and has practiced, like everything else. It's the very rare person who can just roll out of bed and look fine, even for them this will only be a very short time in their life. For most people it takes work. 

You can change this but you have to be assertive about it.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Look for all I know you could be totally wrong about yourself, but if you really feel down about it change it.
> 
> What are you doing to improve your physical appearance if you are not happy with it?
> 
> ...


 @sokillme, what if I do all of those things now? 

I think I have done the best with that which I was born. With the exception of needing to lose weight, which God only knows I try hard at (always have), I already do the things you mention. 

Cosmetic surgery is an option but I know that it doesn't miraculously make people beautiful. The actress/comedian Sandra Bernhard is a good example. There's not enough cosmetic surgery on this planet to make that woman beautiful. 

I don't feel down about my appearance, it is what it is, but I sure wish that it was different. I'm just tired. Being a middle aged single woman is hard enough. Being a middle aged single woman on the lower end of the physically attractive spectrum is disheartening.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Lila said:


> @RandomDude, you are so in love 🙂. Your girlfriend is a very lucky lady.


More accurately, I'm the lucky guy lol

Also, quality is important, but chemistry is also important


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> It is possible. I live a rather mundane life.


What would make you happy? What would give you feelings of contentment and cause you to feel like you really fit in?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila, if you believe you are on the lower end of physical attraction you are suffering from some kind of dysmorphia disorder. You’re so beautiful.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> @sokillme, what if I do all of those things now?
> 
> I think I have done the best with that which I was born. With the exception of needing to lose weight, which God only knows I try hard at (always have), I already do the things you mention.
> 
> ...


OK so are you sure you are just not depressed because of the loss of your marriage? 

May ask who are you comparing yourself to? Not the media right? Like I pointed out that stuff isn't real. People on TV have a whole team of people who know how to make them look their best. 

By the way with the right plastic surgery Sandra Bernhard could look more like Lea Michele or Lake Bell.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> What would make you happy? What would give you feelings of contentment and cause you to feel like you really fit in?


That's a tough question because for the most part, I am happy and content...even in my mundane (see boring) life. I do miss having a partner and the intimacy that comes with that but also don't want just any partner. I will not settle but then again am I over reaching with my wants? I have no idea.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila, if you believe you are on the lower end of physical attraction you are suffering from some kind of dysmorphia disorder. You’re so beautiful.


FW, I appreciate the compliment but honestly, I am VERY photogenic. I am not denying that I have self esteem issues regarding my appearance (to some extent) which have been exasperated recently by the rejection from IT. I mean he flat out rejected my sexual advances and then dumped me. After all of the **** I went through with my ex, this one stings.... a lot. Combine that with all of the other "nopes" along the way, and I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with me. At some point I have to stop saying it's a "them" issue and start looking in the mirror.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> OK so are you sure you are just not depressed because of the loss of your marriage?
> 
> May ask who are you comparing yourself to? Not the media right? Like I pointed out that stuff isn't real. People on TV have a whole team of people who know how to make them look their best.


I am definitely not depressed over the loss of the marriage. It's sad that it happened but not something I can change. I have accepted that it is dead and buried.

And no, I don't compare myself to media people. Heck I rarely watch tv, have a minimal social media presence (a facebook account that I check once a month if that), and with the exception of TAM and Reddit pretty much stay clear of online garbage. 

My perceptions are based on real life experiences. One of my favorite things to do is go to meetup social gatherings and observe people. That right there has shown me what a topsy turvy world we live in. More than that, I don't stand a chance in this modern dating world. 



sokillme said:


> By the way with the right plastic surgery Sandra Bernhard could look more like Lea Michele or Lake Bell.


I have to disagree with you @sokillme. Not saying she couldn't improve her looks but without extensive reconstructive surgery, there's no way she would look like either of those women.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lila said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Lila, if you believe you are on the lower end of physical attraction you are suffering from some kind of dysmorphia disorder. You’re so beautiful.
> ...


How long have you been single and dating for?

It can take a couple of years-- or longer-- to find the right person to have a relationship with (mutual on both ends).


----------



## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> FW, I appreciate the compliment but honestly, I am VERY photogenic. I am not denying that I have self esteem issues regarding my appearance (to some extent) which have been exasperated recently by the rejection from IT. I mean he flat out rejected my sexual advances and then dumped me. After all of the **** I went through with my ex, this one stings.... a lot. Combine that with all of the other "nopes" along the way, and I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with me. At some point I have to stop saying it's a "them" issue and start looking in the mirror.


In reading this thread (and many others that you participate in), I believe that you are correct that it is you... Its not your quality, beauty, or personality (you are strong in all three ). I believe its your expectations.

There is no single definition of a quality person. Everyone is flawed in some way and strong in others. I think you are searching for a unicorn.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> My perceptions are based on real life experiences. One of my favorite things to do is go to meetup social gatherings and observe people. That right there has shown me what a topsy turvy world we live in. More than that, I don't stand a chance in this modern dating world.
> .


And who is to say your perception is not flawed? You have already convinced yourself that you are on the lower end of the spectrum, so honestly you are going to see what you want to see (as you can see here in this thread as there is no convincing you otherwise).


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> How long have you been single and dating for?
> 
> It can take a couple of years-- or longer-- to find the right person to have a relationship with (mutual on both ends).


I have been single for 8 months. 

At this point, I am just looking for interested people. How long does it take to find interest?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

attheend02 said:


> In reading this thread (and many others that you participate in), I believe that you are correct that it is you... Its not your quality, beauty, or personality (you are strong in all three ). I believe its your expectations.
> 
> There is no single definition of a quality person. Everyone is flawed in some way and strong in others. *I think you are searching for a unicorn.*


You think expecting a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is searching for a unicorn?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> *And who is to say your perception is not flawed? *You have already convinced yourself that you are on the lower end of the spectrum, so honestly you are going to see what you want to see (as you can see here in this thread as there is no convincing you otherwise).


So how does one go about adjusting their perceptions?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lila said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > How long have you been single and dating for?
> ...


I think it can take a long time to find real, mutual interest with a quality person. Some people find it in a month, some a couple of years.


----------



## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> You think expecting a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is searching for a unicorn?


hmm. maybe your are right 

I'm also thinking that 8 months isn't that long. I think of how long it took me to meet my wife... at least 3 years.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> So how does one go about adjusting their perceptions?


You have to start by understanding your current perception is wrong.

Kind of a lame way to go about this but, will you do me a favor and watch The Secret on Netflix?

Lame because it’s a fairly goofy movie. But it does spark in most people who watch it a glimmer of the idea that their thoughts hold power over them, and that this can be changed. So as a favor to me and others on TAM who want to help you see that your perception is wrong, spend the hour to watch it? I know, I know, some of it is framed in a totally stupid syrupy way. But the message will still get through to you.

It’s just a start. A glimmer into your ability to change your perception.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > So how does one go about adjusting their perceptions?
> ...


Is this the movie about the Australian lady who finds what make Da Vinci and others like him tick? There are several The Secrets on Netflix.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is what I guessed, but I wasn't aware she had posted a photo. (not asking to see it). If you've seen it and she is attractive, then that changes the discussion (in a good way)



Faithful Wife said:


> Lila, if you believe you are on the lower end of physical attraction you are suffering from some kind of dysmorphia disorder. You’re so beautiful.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> That is what I guessed, but I wasn't aware she had posted a photo. (not asking to see it). If you've seen it and she is attractive, then that changes the discussion (in a good way)


Lila is a beauty. From the few shots of her I’ve seen I would compare her to the original Samantha (can’t remember the actress’ name). Only cuter.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> Is this the movie about the Australian lady who finds what make Da Vinci and others like him tick? There are several The Secrets on Netflix.


Yes that one.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Thanks for all of the support and recommendations. I am absorbing everything said on this thread. I do realize that I have a lot of good things in my life....a whole lotta great things actually. I will focus on nurturing those instead of the things I cannot change.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

attheend02 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > FW, I appreciate the compliment but honestly, I am VERY photogenic. I am not denying that I have self esteem issues regarding my appearance (to some extent) which have been exasperated recently by the rejection from IT. I mean he flat out rejected my sexual advances and then dumped me. After all of the **** I went through with my ex, this one stings.... a lot. Combine that with all of the other "nopes" along the way, and I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with me. At some point I have to stop saying it's a "them" issue and start looking in the mirror.
> ...


Unicorns do exist. Took me 32 years to find one but they do exist. No one is technically perfect, but their flaws are your perfections.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

its all spelled out right here for how to properly select a woman:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its unfortunate, there are so many beautiful women who do not recognize their beauty. One of the reasons I dislike plastic surgery so much is that a female acquaintance of mine who was exceptionally beautiful, decided to have plastic surgery and became... ordinary.

Beauty is not a question of how close someone is to a single ideal, but an overall effect. There are many different styles of beauty. Its like art - there isn't the one "best" painting in the world. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Lila is a beauty. From the few shots of her I’ve seen I would compare her to the original Samantha (can’t remember the actress’ name). Only cuter.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People are rejected for all sorts of reasons, including being rejected for sex. (as I am well aware). Often it has *nothing* to do with the person being rejected, and everything to do with the person doing the rejecting. 




Lila said:


> FW, I appreciate the compliment but honestly, I am VERY photogenic. I am not denying that I have self esteem issues regarding my appearance (to some extent) which have been exasperated recently by the rejection from IT. I mean he flat out rejected my sexual advances and then dumped me. After all of the **** I went through with my ex, this one stings.... a lot. Combine that with all of the other "nopes" along the way, and I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with me. At some point I have to stop saying it's a "them" issue and start looking in the mirror.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> I have been single for 8 months.
> 
> At this point, I am just looking for interested people. How long does it take to find interest?


8 months is nothing! 

And everyone receives "nopes".

Would I be right in guessing that actually your standards are a fair bit higher than you are admitting here? 

My experience is that it always takes time to find someone who really is compatible -- and not just someone to fill up the lonely time. And if you are happy with yourself, it takes that much longer -- just because there's no real imperative to keep dating someone just for the sake of having someone around.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> I'm feeling quite philosophical today so I'm going to ask the question.....what's the benefit of striving to be oneself if being oneself does not get you what you want?


If you "get what you want" by being someone else, odds are you'll find that it isn't actually what you want.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Quality should not be an expectation... it is a state of being, something that is generated from within.

Quality is also temporary, one cannot be "quality" all the time so that takes understanding and patience, not so much for understanding others but understanding it from yourself as that is the lesson you will use when experiencing the ebb and flow of quality within others.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> That's a tough question because for the most part, I am happy and content...even in my mundane (see boring) life. I do miss having a partner and the intimacy that comes with that but also don't want just any partner. I will not settle but then again am I over reaching with my wants? I have no idea.


I think you are getting to the heart of the matter. At worst, you try to do the things or go to those places where you think those men will be hanging out. You feel disrespected, out of place, uncomfortable... or you feel energized, comfortable, like you've found home... and that's how you know whether your ideals are just dreams or are actually achievable. 

Most women I know who find a man who makes good money and has a great career, blah, blah, blah, are those who also have the same and hang out at the same places. They bump into someone, chat and go out a little and figure out if they are right for each other. Maybe that is something to think about doing, if you have not tried it? 

I feel like you really need to take a look at what you need and want. Step back and really think about them or try them. Be safe, of course. See what happens. It may clear up any fantasies you thought were achievable goals. At leas then, you can concentrate on getting something that is achievable.

I hope that makes sense to you. You can make it a fun adventure, rather than something to worry about. A kind of learning experience that will benefit you the rest of your life and help you be happier.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Lila said:


> I'm feeling quite philosophical today so I'm going to ask the question.....what's the benefit of striving to be oneself if being oneself does not get you what you want?


You know, this question REALLY got me thinking...and I think it may display a bit of what you feel @Lila. 

First, when I read your question, what I heard was that you don't truly believe that "being Lila" will get you what you want: a quality man who loves you for you. 

Second, I thought about what you're actually thinking. Are you thinking that in order to get "a quality man who loves you" that you have to be someone else? Or be how they want you to be (or something to that effect)? If so, I think you can see the strange catch-22 here. You deeply desire to be loved for who you are, but you are willing to NOT BE WHO YOU ARE in order get what you want--but ironically that's a man who loves you for who you are!

So here's the thing: the benefit of striving to be your own self is that when a quality man does come along, he will SEE the real you, get to KNOW the real you, become FRIENDS with the real you, and grow to LOVE the real you. He won't be loving "an image" you reflected, or what you think he wants, or what you think you "should be"--but rather he will want, love and like who you truly are for what you are...YOU.

That is quite a benefit. 

Finally, you've seen my photo, right? If not, just go to my profile and you'll see me goofing around at my cousin's wedding. I am not a photogenic person. I am short and somewhat plumpish. I like to say that I'm a living hobbit, because I do love home and hearth and food and a good beer! I don't now nor have I ever felt Hollywood-beautiful because I'm not blind--I'm not Hollywood-beautiful...BUT I do know that I AM beautiful because I have loving eyes, and a smile that lights up a room, and a warm heart that loves others. My beauty starts in my inner person and reflects on my face and physique. And the benefit I found in being who I truly am is that I found someone who apparently loves living hobbits! I get to be who I am and be loved for that. 

I encourage you in the most caring of ways to be Lila. Let Lila out and let her sparkle. She is beautiful enough that someone will see that light and see it as the treasure you are.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

All the good adjectives have been taken.

*First most....kind, not bitter.

*Loves life and likes or tolerates most people.

Sees beauty everywhere.

Respects and likes most animals.

Rather intelligent or better.

Does not have a big ego.

Energetic

*Enjoys everything outdoors, enjoying every season.

*Adventuress, does not mind getting wet and muddy.

Informed on current events, but not immersed or obsessed in/with them.

Having similar political and religious views, conservative.

*Being other worldly.

*Being carnal, yet loyal.





[The Helmsman]- The Host, RD.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> You know, this question REALLY got me thinking...and I think it may display a bit of what you feel @Lila.
> 
> First, when I read your question, what I heard was that you don't truly believe that "being Lila" will get you what you want: a quality man who loves you for you.
> 
> ...


You are not a hobbit. 
Howsoever, hobbits are OK.

Doing the best with what God has given us should be your motto.
He was generous with you.

Your are very friendly. A quality that is not common in this life.


Openness is both blessing and a curse.






[THM]- pick one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> You think expecting a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is searching for a unicorn?


Nope but 8 months divorce, newly added to the dating pool, learning your stride,n and then meeting Mr. Right, yes. How long did it take you to find your husband. I married well. I didn't meet her until I was 28, that wasn't because I wasn't looking. I even asked someone else who ended up cheating on me. 

I don't think it's your looks. I think it's just that nothing good in life comes without risk and lots of time pain.

Hang in there.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I have been single for 8 months.
> 
> At this point, I am just looking for interested people. How long does it take to find interest?


It took me 4 years of determined looking. And by determined I mean that I was actively looking for a good woman who was genuine in her desire to have a serious relationship. Obviously this varies from person to person but 8 months is a drop in the bucket. It takes time but worth it


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Can I just say one other thing. This is probably not the advice you are looking for but it's me. 0 Life isn't about striving to be happy. Happiness is not the default human condition. So if you make that your goal a lot of your life you are going to feel like a failure. 

Please judge yourself on how you treat others, especially the ones you love. This is what you control and the only measure of true success in your life. 

The most successful people in the world don't usually live happy lives, they have periods of great happiness and great sadness. What they do is strive. Strive and always move forward even when they are sad or depressed, even when they don't believe. They just keep moving forward. Eventually I think it's the striving that I think brings them contentment. What you want to look for is contentment in your life, not happiness. 

So you are not where you want to be now, but "do not despise the day of small beginnings". 8 months ago you were stuck, stuck in a marriage with a man who wasn't in it with you. You are so much better off now, you are free. So you haven't met that next person yet but that doesn't mean it's not coming. It's a process. It takes time. 

When I think of my wife, she is almost 5 years older then me. I wanted to meet her when I was 22, but I didn't have enough going for me at that point and I don't think she would have wanted to have a serious relationship with that young version of me, even though she probably would have had the same attraction. It was better that we met later after I had my second career going. But at the time I felt like you. What's wrong with me, why is this not happening. That probably was one of the things that led me to the person who cheated on me (whom I am mention at times on here). I settled and truthfully I knew I was settling. I knew she was iffy when it came to fidelity but I wanted someone too much. That hurt me very badly. It didn't matter, my wife was still coming. I suspect that guy is still coming for you as well. 

What you need to do is strive to be the best you, sounds like you are doing that in an outward way, but do it also in an inward way. Meaning strive to be happy with who you are. Strive to find contentment without anyone else. and strive to be brave. Take heart and have courage. You are not stuck, you are just in the middle of the ocean right now, but don't land on some small island or sink your ship because your destination seems far away.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> FW, I appreciate the compliment but honestly, I am VERY photogenic. I am not denying that I have self esteem issues regarding my appearance (to some extent) which have been exasperated recently by the rejection from IT. I mean he flat out rejected my sexual advances and then dumped me. After all of the **** I went through with my ex, this one stings.... a lot. Combine that with all of the other "nopes" along the way, and I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with me. At some point I have to stop saying it's a "them" issue and start looking in the mirror.


Lila,

I have never seen you so I don’t know how attractive you are but I do know that confidence in a woman is the sexiest thing ever. Work on what you can to feel good about yourself. I know rejection stings, had plenty myself. I think what I learned most in dating is to find the right person head over heels for me. In the beginning I think I wanted all my dates to like me but that’s not realistic for anyone. Dating is tough sometimes but my advice here is be you and be someone you want to date.....that is itself sexy


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I wonder if your essentially lowing your expectations to something "reasonable" is somehow leaking into your behavior. No one wants to feel like a "practical" option. They want passionate desire, they want someone who believes that they are fantastic.

So, what do you *want*. Not what will you settle with, but what is the man that you actually desire? What is he like? What does he do? And, what is it about you that he loves?


Don't think in terms of some sort of "value ladder". Think of what would be a perfect match FOR YOU.






Lila said:


> You think expecting a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is searching for a unicorn?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Lila said:


> You think expecting a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is searching for a unicorn?


That's me, so I know they exist. Added bonus I am also tall. I also know that I have a large assortment of other more subtle faults that are not covered by your list. (My ex will supply details on request). 

And all I can tell you is, having spent pretty much all of my life married (or in a committed relationship leading to marriage), I have never really done "dating", I don't understand "dating", and I don't really want to do it. The idea of dating for "fun" baffles and indeed repels me. If a woman were to tell me that was what she was looking for, it would be an instant red flag for me. I mention this only because other members of my unicorn herd may feel the same.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

x598 said:


> its all spelled out right here for how to properly select a woman:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuI6GTY9eVc


This explains so much. Talk about unrealistic expectations. Wife zone = 8-10 on the hot scale. LMAO. And they say women have high expectations.:surprise:


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

x598 said:


> its all spelled out right here for how to properly select a woman:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuI6GTY9eVc


I am so grateful Tiffany refused my advances.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> You know, this question REALLY got me thinking...and I think it may display a bit of what you feel @Lila.
> 
> First, when I read your question, what I heard was that you don't truly believe that "being Lila" will get you what you want: a quality man who loves you for you.
> 
> ...



You are describing my dilemma with the catch-22. And yes, I very much want someone to accept me for who I am which is probably why I struggle so much with this issue...because I haven't found that person. Messes with my mind. 



Affaircare said:


> Finally, you've seen my photo, right? If not, just go to my profile and you'll see me goofing around at my cousin's wedding. I am not a photogenic person. I am short and somewhat plumpish. I like to say that I'm a living hobbit, because I do love home and hearth and food and a good beer! I don't now nor have I ever felt Hollywood-beautiful because I'm not blind--I'm not Hollywood-beautiful...BUT I do know that I AM beautiful because I have loving eyes, and a smile that lights up a room, and a warm heart that loves others. My beauty starts in my inner person and reflects on my face and physique. And the benefit I found in being who I truly am is that I found someone who apparently loves living hobbits! I get to be who I am and be loved for that.


I just saw your photos and can genuinely say that your radiance, warmth, and overall beauty shines through in each of them. You are no hobbit lady. You're a petite princess. Kick them in the shins if anyone thinks otherwise. :smile2: 



Affaircare said:


> I encourage you in the most caring of ways to be Lila. Let Lila out and let her sparkle. She is beautiful enough that someone will see that light and see it as the treasure you are.


Thank you for the encouragement. I do let Lila out. Now I just have to stop caring whether anyone sees it as a treasure or not.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@Livvie, @attheend02. wild jade, Wolf1974, and @sokillme. Yes, 8 months is not a long time at all. I have felt like I’m under the clock to meet someone. I worry that the older I get, the harder it’ll be. 

I do understand that I’m playing the long game. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Some days I just wish my magic 8 ball could answer the question of whether I’ll eventually find another person to enter into a long-term relationship. 
@wild jade, you are correct in that my standards are a fair bit higher than I have disclosed here. I didn’t bring up things like kind, compassionate, gracious, strong of character (passionate), generous with his time and resources, charitable, loving, and able/unafraid to communicate because I assume these are characteristics most women seek in men. I only included the “superficial” ones because those are typically the ones that we can quantify off the bat. 
@Emerging Buddhist, I hadn’t thought of Quality as something temporary. I hold myself to a very high standard and am my worse critic when I fail to achieve those standards. I see now how that translates to unrealistic expectations in others. 
@2ntnuf I don’t think I have ever had anything like you describe happen to me. I attend plenty of real-life gatherings, talk to plenty of people, but just never walk away with an interested party, at least not within my age range (younger and older but not within the target). 

But I don’t know what you mean by this: 



> I feel like you really need to take a look at what you need and want. Step back and really think about them or try them. Be safe, of course. See what happens. It may clear up any fantasies you thought were achievable goals. At least then, you can concentrate on getting something that is achievable.
> 
> I hope that makes sense to you. You can make it a fun adventure, rather than something to worry about. A kind of learning experience that will benefit you the rest of your life and help you be happier.


Can you elaborate?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila, when you truly treasure yourself, two things happen.

The first is that it no longer matters to you if anyone else treasures you because you are so self assured you just walk around sparkling all the time.

The second is that people see you sparkle and then treasure you.

It’s an inside job.

By the way, I’m sure there are people in your life who do treasure you. It’s a good time to really focus on that and let it in. Your son I’m sure treasures you in ways you never knew you could be loved before being a parent, as well I’m sure you have friends or siblings who adore you inside and out. These feelings should not be considered less important than the feelings of an imagined romantic partner. If you aren’t clearly aware of the love you’re already being given, give it some contemplation from time to time. Just doing this will help you shift back to loving yourself more too.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Can I just say one other thing. This is probably not the advice you are looking for but it's me. 0 Life isn't about striving to be happy. Happiness is not the default human condition. So if you make that your goal a lot of your life you are going to feel like a failure.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> What you need to do is strive to be the best you, sounds like you are doing that in an outward way, but do it also in an inward way. Meaning strive to be happy with who you are. *Strive to find contentment without anyone else.* and strive to be brave. Take heart and have courage. You are not stuck, you are just in the middle of the ocean right now, but don't land on some small island or sink your ship because your destination seems far away.



You are right. The happiest people I know live simple lives but are very content living it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I wonder if your essentially lowing your expectations to something "reasonable" is somehow leaking into your behavior. No one wants to feel like a "practical" option. They want passionate desire, they want someone who believes that they are fantastic.
> 
> So, what do you *want*. Not what will you settle with, but what is the man that you actually desire? What is he like? What does he do? And, what is it about you that he loves?
> 
> ...


I disagree @uhtred. Middle aged divorced people come with baggage. We are all blemished fruit and that is part of the difficulty with finding compatibility. There has to be compromise and realistic expectations. I feel like expecting perfection is why we have so many lonely people.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> That's me, so I know they exist. Added bonus I am also tall. I also know that I have a large assortment of other more subtle faults that are not covered by your list. (My ex will supply details on request).
> 
> And all I can tell you is, having spent pretty much all of my life married (or in a committed relationship leading to marriage), *I have never really done "dating", I don't understand "dating", and I don't really want to do it. The idea of dating for "fun" baffles and indeed repels me.* If a woman were to tell me that was what she was looking for, it would be an instant red flag for me. I mention this only because other members of my unicorn herd may feel the same.


Have you tried dating again post divorce? I only ask because if you do have the "unicorn" traits but don't date, then you really are no unicorn. You are unavailable. It's similar to all of the priceless works of art that museums keep in storage and never show. They would be much more appreciated if they were actually put on display.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila, when you truly treasure yourself, two things happen.
> 
> The first is that it no longer matters to you if anyone else treasures you because you are so self assured you just walk around sparkling all the time.
> 
> ...



Absolutely. I have stated it several times on this thread that I am beyond grateful for the great things in my life which include my son, my family, and my friends. Most of my life is running smoothly which is probably the reason I'm hyperfocused on the romance side. I know that if I had other things falling off the wayside, romance would be the last thing on my mind.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> @Livvie, @attheend02. wild jade, Wolf1974, and @sokillme. Yes, 8 months is not a long time at all. I have felt like I’m under the clock to meet someone. I worry that the older I get, the harder it’ll be.



I fully understand that... Cast into this at 51 is a scary proposition... It seems so urgent now. 

Although I was unhappy (which is sounds like you weren't), Its hard for me to see it all as "good" thing. 

It is tough to differentiate my role from her role in the dysfunctional relationship I had. Maybe this is why you are so hard on yourself , also. 

I do think that I will eventually find a relationship that is healthier than what I had, though. I've already experienced some aspects that I was missing.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> You are right. The happiest people I know live simple lives but are very content living it.


This puts you in the power seat when selecting a mate.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I disagree @uhtred. Middle aged divorced people come with baggage. We are all blemished fruit and that is part of the *difficulty with finding compatibility.* There has to be compromise and realistic expectations. I feel like expecting perfection is why we have so many lonely people.


see this is so interesting and I find it to be the opposite. Being middle aged and coming through being cheated on, having a selfish and abusive/controlling spouse I am MUCH more the wiser for it, I know exactly what I want and what I will tolerate. The women I date are the same. They have been through the ringer and now know themselves. And I mean truly know who they are, what they want, and what they won’t tolerate. Finding compatibility now is so much easier now in my opinion because everyone knows who they are. When I dated in my teens and 20’s we were all trying to figure it out. I wouldn’t trade this age of dating for anything personally


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> see this is so interesting and I find it to be the opposite. Being middle aged and coming through being cheated on, having a selfish and abusive/controlling spouse I am MUCH more the wiser for it, I know exactly what I want and what I will tolerate. The women I date are the same. They have been through the ringer and now know themselves. And I mean truly know who they are, what they want, and what they won’t tolerate. Finding compatibility now is so much easier now in my opinion because everyone knows who they are. When I dated in my teens and 20’s we were all trying to figure it out. I wouldn’t trade this age of dating for anything personally


So you haven't experienced women who expect perfection? 

I have met men who got out of crap marriages and are now not willing to give an inch, even when they themselves are no prize.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree @uhtred. Middle aged divorced people come with baggage. We are all blemished fruit and that is part of the *difficulty with finding compatibility.* There has to be compromise and realistic expectations. I feel like expecting perfection is why we have so many lonely people.
> ...


That’s what I’m seeing too. 

I mean, yes they all have baggage, but that allows them to really know what they want and what they don’t want.

When we were all 20’s, the hell if we knew what we really needed and wanted. Even if we thought we knew, we all find out that much more than starry eyed enthusiasm is needed for relationships and for us to be fulfilled in the long term.

We all know ourselves better.

And the ones who are floundering seem to just spin off quickly so they don’t really count in my experience.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> So you haven't experienced women who expect perfection?
> 
> I have met men who got out of crap marriages and are now not willing to give an inch, even when they themselves are no prize.


 I am probably like the men you have met and also expect a lot. Why? Because when I was younger I was willing to compromise, well let’s call it what it is, I was willing to fold and do whatever it took to be in a relationship. I don’t define myself by that any longer and don’t need a woman to make me whole. I have made myself a whole person and in doing so won’t compromise on the things important to me. So when looking for a woman I make sure we have the same values...... I also know I am a good man, average looking, good job, good values, great father. I know me I know what I bring to the table. A woman bringing less wouldnt be of interest to me and now that I have aged and matured I have outgrown the trump looks card. Just being hot doesn’t do it for me. You have to be. A quality person

That does mean it takes longer, as I said took me 4 years to find my now fiancé but worth it. She is the type of woman I should have been with all along, we are compatible.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think its about perfection - there is not "ideal" that everyone strives towards. That is the (to my mind) badly broken idea of "sexual market value". 

I think the idea is compatibility. Its finding someone for for whom *you* are the ideal, or at least as close to it as they can find. 

You and I would likely not be a good match, there are many things about me you wouldn't like. For my wife though, I am probably the perfect, match - she really doesn't want anyone else. (she would be perfect for me, if we didn't have issues with our mismatched libidos). 

I would be a darn good match for many other people as well - despite my being a terrible match for the majority of women. 
@Lila, you may not be a great match for *most* men, but you may be fantastic for some - and those are the men you want. I think the trick is trying to figure out how to find them - just as they are trying to find you. Unfortunately most dating is build around finding what the "average" wants, not what each individual wants. 


If I were looking for a date, I'd be looking for a woman roughly my age with a strong interest and career in science / engineering, who likes luxury adventure travel, is a serious nerd, has a wry sense of humor like mine, and has the right level of kinkiness in bed. I couldn't care less about her "past", and I find most women attractive enough for their appearance not to be a negative. That is NOT what most men want, but its what *I* want. (and my wife meets all of those except for sexual compatibility) 

The thing is, there are men who would rather date an astrophysicist than a super-model. There are women who would prefer to hike in the jungles of Borneo, than go shopping in Paris.


What "baggage" do you have? You have what you describe as as great kid. 





Lila said:


> I disagree @uhtred. Middle aged divorced people come with baggage. We are all blemished fruit and that is part of the difficulty with finding compatibility. There has to be compromise and realistic expectations. I feel like expecting perfection is why we have so many lonely people.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> @Livvie, @attheend02. wild jade, Wolf1974, and @sokillme. Yes, 8 months is not a long time at all. I have felt like I’m under the clock to meet someone. I worry that the older I get, the harder it’ll be.
> 
> I do understand that I’m playing the long game. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Some days I just wish my magic 8 ball could answer the question of whether I’ll eventually find another person to enter into a long-term relationship.
> 
> ...


Well, I just thought you were actually having fun with the guys you meet now. So, I wondered if you really just wanted one of those guys to end up being the right one.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> @Livvie, @attheend02. wild jade, Wolf1974, and @sokillme. Yes, 8 months is not a long time at all. I have felt like I’m under the clock to meet someone. I worry that the older I get, the harder it’ll be.
> 
> I do understand that I’m playing the long game. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Some days I just wish my magic 8 ball could answer the question of whether* I’ll eventually find another person to enter into a long-term relationship. *
> 
> ...


Excellent question but unfortunately none of us get this. I thought I met the person for forever she turned out to not even be close. No guarantees in life.

But I would like to ask you this. If you didn’t meet someone worth marrying does it matter? I mean living you’re best life doesn’t have to be about a spouse. It can be about yourself. Your friends,your family. The reason I ask is because when you are honestly ok being single for the rest of your life it takes pressure and frustration off dating. Most of my dating was just an activity for fun. Once I met someone I knew was truly different/special that’s when I started thinking about altering my course and becoming a husband again. Had I not met her I would still be doing what I was before: hanging with friends, doing hobbies, spending time with kids and family, travel.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Lila said:


> Have you tried dating again post divorce? I only ask because if you do have the "unicorn" traits but don't date, then you really are no unicorn. You are unavailable. It's similar to all of the priceless works of art that museums keep in storage and never show. They would be much more appreciated if they were actually put on display.


Well, indeed, but I have no reason to do so. I prefer not to date. I am happy enough with my situation, and have no wish to spend a lot of time and money on a new hobby that I lack the skills for. I mentioned this as a possible explanation for you, if you are finding that divorced, physically fit, gainfully employed and mentally healthy unicorns are not "out there". I can be found any day, in my local cafe or shop, minding my own business, or watching the football with my friends. I tried online dating for a while, but it sucked.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I don't think its about perfection - there is not "ideal" that everyone strives towards. That is the (to my mind) badly broken idea of "sexual market value".
> 
> I think the idea is compatibility. Its finding someone for for whom *you* are the ideal, or at least as close to it as they can find.
> 
> ...


My kid is amazing but I still share custody which means I still have to deal with my ex husband on a regular basis and as much as we get along, there are days when he gets on my last nerve. I am careful about who I bring into my life and who I open up to. I also trigger when I experience similar crap that I experienced in my marriage. 

These are pretty common for men and women post divorce. Nothing unusual but it's still baggage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I just thought you were actually having fun with the guys you meet now. So, I wondered if you really just wanted one of those guys to end up being the right one.


I do have fun when I go out on a date but for one reason or another, none are the right ones for me. I end up getting friend zone a lot.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Excellent question but unfortunately none of us get this. I thought I met the person for forever she turned out to not even be close. No guarantees in life.
> 
> But I would like to ask you this. If you didn’t meet someone worth marrying does it matter? I mean living you’re best life doesn’t have to be about a spouse. It can be about yourself. Your friends,your family. The reason I ask is because when you are honestly ok being single for the rest of your life it takes pressure and frustration off dating. Most of my dating was just an activity for fun. Once I met someone I knew was truly different/special that’s when I started thinking about altering my course and becoming a husband again. Had I not met her I would still be doing what I was before: hanging with friends, doing hobbies, spending time with kids and family, travel.


I am being 100% honest here, this may change in the future but right now, I am not okay being single for the rest of my life. What I am doing is learning coping techniques to deal with my feelings of not being okay. I don't have family living anywhere near me (I see them 2- 3 times a year) and most of my friends are married and/or live out of town so only see them every couple of weeks. My opinion may change if I find other single women to hang out with. 

Just as an example of my typical weekend, I didn't have my son this weekend so I cleaned the house, worked on my yard, attended church, and netflix binged Mad Men the rest of the time. There's so much to do at the house that I have to make an intentional effort to leave it. And most of my friends are in the same boat with errands and chores.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I am being 100% honest here, this may change in the future but right now, I am not okay being single for the rest of my life. What I am doing is learning coping techniques to deal with my feelings of not being okay. I don't have family living anywhere near me (I see them 2- 3 times a year) and most of my friends are married and/or live out of town so only see them every couple of weeks. My opinion may change if I find other single women to hang out with.
> 
> Just as an example of my typical weekend, I didn't have my son this weekend so I cleaned the house, worked on my yard, attended church, and netflix binged Mad Men the rest of the time. There's so much to do at the house that I have to make an intentional effort to leave it. And most of my friends are in the same boat with errands and chores.


Lila I have been here. When I got divorced I had no family in the area and no single friends. Most of my hobbies and off duty time revolved around my kids and my wife so when they were gone I was really alone and very lonely.

So I joined meetup groups and made friends, found hobbies I enjoyed. Even made a few close friends though dating that didn’t work out. I took the challenge of designing my life the way I wanted it no longer being controlled by another. I hope you get to a place like this Lila. I really do. It’s so freeing


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> I do have fun when I go out on a date but for one reason or another, none are the right ones for me. I end up getting friend zone a lot.


Sorry to 'hear' that.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I think you need to have some introspection to why your husband asked for a divorce. I don’t mean to sound harsh... but my ex husband also was the one who wanted the divorce and I was completely taken by surprise. 

I did a lot of introspection and unfortunately it isnt always pretty or nice. Because at the end of the day... men are men uk what I mean? Doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong it just is what it is.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> I am being 100% honest here, this may change in the future but right now, I am not okay being single for the rest of my life. What I am doing is learning coping techniques to deal with my feelings of not being okay. I don't have family living anywhere near me (I see them 2- 3 times a year) and most of my friends are married and/or live out of town so only see them every couple of weeks. My opinion may change if I find other single women to hang out with.
> 
> 
> 
> Just as an example of my typical weekend, I didn't have my son this weekend so I cleaned the house, worked on my yard, attended church, and netflix binged Mad Men the rest of the time. There's so much to do at the house that I have to make an intentional effort to leave it. And most of my friends are in the same boat with errands and chores.




I was the same way. I am a good Christian women who loved to be married and made my identity around it. But I’m not extremely social. And I was not ok to be single and I just know that I am meant to be a wife and mother. 
I did a lot of introspection... and working On myself and sis a lot is things I was uncomfortable with like tons of online dating. Anyway... I am finally in an amazing relationship and I’m really happy. Way happier than I was in my marriage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I am being 100% honest here, this may change in the future but right now, I am not okay being single for the rest of my life. What I am doing is learning coping techniques to deal with my feelings of not being okay. I don't have family living anywhere near me (I see them 2- 3 times a year) and most of my friends are married and/or live out of town so only see them every couple of weeks. My opinion may change if I find other single women to hang out with.
> ...


Thanks for the support wolf. I know my situation is not unique. It helps to hear from others who were in the same situation.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I think you need to have some introspection to why your husband asked for a divorce. I don’t mean to sound harsh... but my ex husband also was the one who wanted the divorce and I was completely taken by surprise.
> 
> I did a lot of introspection and unfortunately it isnt always pretty or nice. *Because at the end of the day... men are men uk what I mean? *Doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong it just is what it is.


Actually I don't know what you mean at all. What do you mean by "at the end of the day... Men are men"?


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Well... reading thru this, your "minimum" list for an acceptable possible partner is pretty extensive. Add to this your (IMO) lack of confidence and self proclaimed need for a man to be complete/happy - which whether you want to believe or not, IMO both very likely show, and this little tidbit from another thread...
"I am usually the healthy eater versus the people I date. Due to an autoimmune disease, I can't drink alcohol, coffee or tea, or carbonated drinks. I also can't eat foods with caffeine, preservatives, msg, or artificial sweeteners. To make matters worse, I do keto. This makes fast food and most chain restaurants a no no." You have said you have no hobbies or "passions" or specific goals. You sound interesting and like loads of fun ! Not. 

I agree with a previous poster. Your ideal - and minimum acceptable - man does indeed sound like a unicorn. Like the rather funny video posted specifically stated about us men looking for our "ideal" wife/woman. 

8 months out is not much - to/for anyone. I advise you take a year off and get your head clear, make a plan for your life not based on finding a man, and expectations in check. I believe you are a high quality person/woman which I think is what you are asking with this thread - and think you probably have a lot to offer a guy - just not all that much right now. 

My best wishes - sincerely.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2&out said:


> Well... reading thru this, your "minimum" list for an acceptable possible partner is pretty extensive.


I'll ask you the same thing I've asked every other person who said this very thing. You honestly think that looking for a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is an extensive list of requirements? 




> Add to this your (IMO) lack of confidence and self proclaimed need for a man to be complete/happy - which whether you want to believe or not, IMO both very likely show,




I'd argue that I do not lack confidence but rather I know exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are and what's so wrong with wanting someone in my life for intimacy, affection, companionship. Is it more confident to flitter about from one guy to another to get that need met?



> and this little tidbit from another thread...
> "I am usually the healthy eater versus the people I date. Due to an autoimmune disease, I can't drink alcohol, coffee or tea, or carbonated drinks. I also can't eat foods with caffeine, preservatives, msg, or artificial sweeteners. To make matters worse, I do keto. This makes fast food and most chain restaurants a no no."


 If someone can't handle healthy eating at my age, then that's probably a good thing for me. They'll be dead or in seriously ****ty health soon in which case I do not want to be their nurse. 



> You have said you have no hobbies or "passions" or specific goals. You sound interesting and like loads of fun ! Not.


This one I could believe. I do need to find a hobby I am truly passionate about. Unfortunately I seem to be a jack of all trades, master of none when it comes to this. No one thing has truly stuck as something I want to delve deeper into. 

On the other hand, I do not chase after men with lots of hobbies. I get exhausted just by hearing/seeing people talk about all of the **** they do all of the time.. I just wonder what they are running away from or avoiding. 



> I agree with a previous poster. Your ideal - and minimum acceptable - man does indeed sound like a unicorn. Like the rather funny video posted specifically stated about us men looking for our "ideal" wife/woman.


So what does a "realistic" man look like?



> 8 months out is not much - to/for anyone. I advise you take a year off and get your head clear, make a plan for your life not based on finding a man, and expectations in check. I believe you are a high quality person/woman which I think is what you are asking with this thread - and think you probably have a lot to offer a guy -* just not all that much right now*.
> 
> My best wishes - sincerely.


I'm just curious.... Aside from confidence and hobbies, what else am I missing that I can make happen?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Just a thought: you are looking for a stable reliable man... the sort who is likely to stay married. Is it worth considering men who have never been married? 


Your list is completely reasonable, and I would think *expected* for anyone who is dating. I don't see any reason you can't find all that and much more. Its really difficult to get a feel fro someone though just from words on a page. 




Lila said:


> I'll ask you the same thing I've asked every other person who said this very thing. You honestly think that looking for a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is an extensive list of requirements?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Just a thought: you are looking for a stable reliable man... the sort who is likely to stay married. Is it worth considering men who have never been married?
> 
> 
> Your list is completely reasonable, and I would think *expected* for anyone who is dating. I don't see any reason you can't find all that and much more. Its really difficult to get a feel fro someone though just from words on a page.


I won't discount there are some great never been married men out there but in my experience they are more difficult to deal with than the divorced ones. I went out with two back at the beginning of the year. One could not understand my priority to my son. The other was essentially married to his job. There's usually a reason why they are single.


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## Woolyjumpers (Apr 16, 2019)

I feel that maybe you are a bit depressed and that is seeping out into your interactions with people even if you aren't aware of it. 

I'm a women so I can't speak from experience about what men want, but I have learnt over the years that most are definitely not attracted to depressed women who are down on themselves.

That doesn't mean you should put on a fake happy face or anything, but I do wonder if you need to spend a little bit of time looking after yourself and working on yourself instead of looking outwards?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Woolyjumpers said:


> I feel that maybe you are a bit depressed and that is seeping out into your interactions with people even if you aren't aware of it.
> 
> I'm a women so I can't speak from experience about what men want, but I have learnt over the years that most are definitely not attracted to depressed women who are down on themselves.
> 
> That doesn't mean you should put on a fake happy face or anything, but I do wonder if you need to spend a little bit of time looking after yourself and working on yourself instead of looking outwards?


It's possible I am somewhat depressed. I have been avoiding going to the doctor's for fear they will put me on drugs which will mess up my brain chemistry for life. But then again, I hear that anti depressants give folks a "I don't care one way or the other" attitude so there's that.

Can you please explain what you mean by "looking after yourself and working on yourself"?


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## Woolyjumpers (Apr 16, 2019)

Lila said:


> It's possible I am somewhat depressed. I have been avoiding going to the doctor's for fear they will put me on drugs which will mess up my brain chemistry for life. But then again, I hear that anti depressants give folks a "I don't care one way or the other" attitude so there's that.
> 
> Can you please explain what you mean by "looking after yourself and working on yourself"?


You don't necessarily have to go on drugs if you are depressed, you can ask your Doctor to suggest other therapies such as counselling if that's something you are interested in. 

What I meant by looking after yourself was, I wonder if you are currently spending enough time taking the steps you need to do to take care of your emotional health? Maybe you are not in the frame of mind where dating is a good idea at the moment, for example. It involves a lot of rejection and if you are already feeling low that's just going to pile on top of you. Maybe it's just about switching your priorities for a bit and having some fun or doing some hobby or project you enjoy? Or spending some time deciding what you want out of life?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Lila said:


> *I am being 100% honest here, this may change in the future but right now, I am not okay being single for the rest of my life.* What I am doing is learning coping techniques to deal with my feelings of not being okay. I don't have family living anywhere near me (I see them 2- 3 times a year) and most of my friends are married and/or live out of town so only see them every couple of weeks. My opinion may change if I find other single women to hang out with.
> 
> Just as an example of my typical weekend, I didn't have my son this weekend so I cleaned the house, worked on my yard, attended church, and netflix binged Mad Men the rest of the time. There's so much to do at the house that I have to make an intentional effort to leave it. And most of my friends are in the same boat with errands and chores.


For the record Lila, I do think you are a quality woman! 

But the bolded part above... the problem with you having this outlook is that most men can sense, and are repelled by, a woman's desperation to have a man in her life. While you may not see it as desperation, essentially it is, because you really are not ok otherwise being on your own. 

I know it repels men because I have experienced it first hand myself. Since coming out of my last divorce back in the later part of 2012, I am fairly certain I put of vibes of desperation. (I am relationship oriented, I always have been.) I dont like dating around with multiple men, and I dont like intimacy without being exclusive. (yes I have made exceptions, but its not what I prefer) And I have discovered that since that divorce, men just have no interest in making any commitment to me. The bf I have currently is the first real one since then. (almost a year and a half now) I used to have zero issues with men, men used to just fall for me for some reason LOL... now tho? Forgetaboutit. And I dont even care about getting married again, I have failed at it 3 times, so it isnt something I care about trying again. But I DO want that one special person for life. 

I am good with being on my own, I love not answering to anyone else, and being able to do what I want when I want to. Over the last year in my not so satisfactory relationship, that feeling has actually grown for me. So I am curious to see in the future if things are any different for me. I feel like if a man cant deal with me having my own life, then I cant be bothered. (yes I am leaning toward a breakup, which you have seen in the singles thread! ) 

I just want you to get to a good place Lila, and be content with yourself and all that you have.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Lila said:


> I'll ask you the same thing I've asked every other person who said this very thing. You honestly think that looking for a middle aged, divorced man, who is gainfully employed, has no criminal record, is not an addict of some sort, is mentally healthy, doesn't smoke, and won't die of a heart attack going up a couple flights of stairs is an extensive list of requirements?


It is not. Not at all. The issue only rears it's head as you cannot be privy to all of these facts until you are actually involved with said man. And even if/when you have a guy that ticks those boxes, he still may not be the right guy for you.

I'm trying to find a way to frame this without sounding like an a$$.

I dated women who were more accomplished, exciting, sexually aggressive, active/athletic, and equally as beautiful as my wife. Would I ever share these facts with her, or do I question my choice to partner with and marry her? Absolutely not. It's immaterial. 

What materialized that made those other relationships NOT last? The technical answer would be; 'Stuff'. Some of it their stuff. Some of it my stuff.

At the end of the day, I don't care so much about quality, as I do your 'Stuff', and can you handle my 'Stuff'.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Woolyjumpers said:


> [
> What I meant by looking after yourself was, I wonder if you are currently spending enough time taking the steps you need to do to take care of your emotional health? Maybe you are not in the frame of mind where dating is a good idea at the moment, for example. It involves a lot of rejection and if you are already feeling low that's just going to pile on top of you. Maybe it's just about switching your priorities for a bit and having some fun or doing some hobby or project you enjoy? Or spending some time deciding what you want out of life?


I'm trying to find things to do now that I enjoy. 

Deciding what I want out of life is the million dollar question.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I'm trying to find things to do now that I enjoy.
> 
> Deciding what I want out of life is the million dollar question.


You can look at this two ways. With worry our excitement. That is a choice.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> For the record Lila, I do think you are a quality woman!
> 
> But the bolded part above... the problem with you having this outlook is that most men can sense, and are repelled by, a woman's desperation to have a man in her life. While you may not see it as desperation, essentially it is, because you really are not ok otherwise being on your own.


I do understand this. The crazy part is that although I genuinely want to find someone, I'm also constantly looking out for red flags and run at the first signs of being serious. Now tell me that's not insane. 



> I know it repels men because I have experienced it first hand myself. Since coming out of my last divorce back in the later part of 2012, I am fairly certain I put of vibes of desperation. (I am relationship oriented, I always have been.) I dont like dating around with multiple men, and I dont like intimacy without being exclusive. (yes I have made exceptions, but its not what I prefer) And I have discovered that since that divorce, men just have no interest in making any commitment to me. The bf I have currently is the first real one since then. (almost a year and a half now) I used to have zero issues with men, men used to just fall for me for some reason LOL... now tho? Forgetaboutit. And I dont even care about getting married again, I have failed at it 3 times, so it isnt something I care about trying again. But I DO want that one special person for life.


Maybe there is something to "the rules". Ignore them and they fall all over you. Show interest and they run away. LMAO. I'm just kidding on that but I do get what you're saying. I, as a woman, am repelled by desperate men. I feel like they are settling for anyone. 



> I am good with being on my own, I love not answering to anyone else, and being able to do what I want when I want to. Over the last year in my not so satisfactory relationship, that feeling has actually grown for me. So I am curious to see in the future if things are any different for me. I feel like if a man cant deal with me having my own life, then I cant be bothered. (yes I am leaning toward a breakup, which you have seen in the singles thread! )
> 
> I just want you to get to a good place Lila, and be content with yourself and all that you have.


I want to get there. I want to be content by myself. The quiet is stifling sometimes. 

I have been reading about energy vampires and wonder if I'm one. When I'm by myself, I get lazy and lethargic. I'm indifferent when I'm around strangers or acquaintances but am super energized when I'm with someone(s) with whom I feel comfortable.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> It is not. Not at all. The issue only rears it's head as you cannot be privy to all of these facts until you are actually involved with said man. And even if/when you have a guy that ticks those boxes, he still may not be the right guy for you.
> 
> I'm trying to find a way to frame this without sounding like an a$$.
> 
> ...


It's finding the Ying your Yang but you must have had a baseline of qualities in your mind to start your search. Did you date every single woman who was interested in you? Probably not. You probably had criteria to cull the herd. Those criteria would be your definition of a quality woman.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I'm trying to find things to do now that I enjoy.
> ...


I wish I had better examples in my life of successfully divorced middle aged women. I think that would help.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its one of life's frustrations: I've run into far more women who seem somewhat interested and who might be good partners now that I'm married and and never dating again, than I ever did when I was dating.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@Lila 

Maybe a thread topic "What does a successfully divorced middle aged woman look like" ?

Not a bad idea you had there.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @Lila
> 
> Maybe a thread topic "What does a successfully divorced middle aged woman look like" ?
> 
> Not a bad idea you had there.


I will let you or someone else start that one. I'm pretty sure everyone is sick of listening to me *****. Lol


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> I wish I had better examples in my life of successfully divorced middle aged women. I think that would help.


Too bad we don't live closer! Wish I could show you around and show you what it looks like for me, where to go, what I say, what I wear, what happens. If you don't have any single friends who are successfully dating (ie: having fun at it and meeting men they actually like and consider relationships with), then yes I can see why it feels like you are off in the bushes by yourself.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> I wish I had better examples in my life of successfully divorced middle aged women. I think that would help.


Just as subjective as the topic. 

I don't see anything wrong with your list. I wonder if you pull it out on a date? It doesn't have to be on a piece of paper with a check list and a required signature and date, but it does feel that way sometimes when reading. 

Do you think the men you are dating just have it in mind to have a good time and see where things go? Do you think they might have their list in the back of their mind, but don't want to think about it till they start to think about commitment? 

I'm thinking, if I can't get along with the woman on an everyday level, I wouldn't even consider long term lists. I guess that could come off as superficial. It's what we deal with, the superficial, when we start going out. The rest comes with time. 

Impatience comes out of pores when it is the foremost thing on our minds. Disgust and disregard follow closely behind. 

Funny thing is, you have said you've gone out for fun and enjoyed yourself. Something isn't coming out in this thread or all this would clear up and you'd figure out what you need to do.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It really really might be as simple as sometimes it just takes awhile to meet someone there is mutual attraction (on many levels) with. Some people might be lucky and find it in a month. Others might not have that luck for a few years!

My ex husband is now married to the woman he started dating before we were even living in separate houses! He met her at an event and never even had to date!! He is no prize. It was just freaking luck!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Too bad we don't live closer! Wish I could show you around and show you what it looks like for me, where to go, what I say, what I wear, what happens. If you don't have any single friends who are successfully dating (ie: having fun at it and meeting men they actually like and consider relationships with), then yes I can see why it feels like you are off in the bushes by yourself.


That would be awesome. I have only 2 divorced friends and they look to me to lead the way. One hasn't dated in over 6 years and the other won't leave her house.:frown2:

ETA: I have met some fantastic single ladies in their mid 60s. These women are firecrackers.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Just as subjective as the topic.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with your list. I wonder if you pull it out on a date? It doesn't have to be on a piece of paper with a check list and a required signature and date, but it does feel that way sometimes when reading.
> 
> Do you think the men you are dating just have it in mind to have a good time and see where things go? Do you think they might have their list in the back of their mind, but don't want to think about it till they start to think about commitment?


No, but I'm the queen at asking subtle indirect questions. One of my "gifts" is that I enjoy learning about other people so I ask a lot of how and why questions. Most of the men I've dated have said I am an excellent conversationalist - LMAO. No, I'm not a great conversationalist but people sure do love to talk about themselves. :wink2:



2ntnuf said:


> I'm thinking, if I can't get along with the woman on an everyday level, I wouldn't even consider long term lists. I guess that could come off as superficial. It's what we deal with, the superficial, when we start going out. The rest comes with time.
> 
> Impatience comes out of pores when it is the foremost thing on our minds. Disgust and disregard follow closely behind.
> 
> *Funny thing is, you have said you've gone out for fun and enjoyed yourself. Something isn't coming out in this thread or all this would clear up and you'd figure out what you need to do*.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why would you think going out on dates and enjoying myself is a problem?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> It really really might be as simple as sometimes it just takes awhile to meet someone there is mutual attraction (on many levels) with. Some people might be lucky and find it in a month. Others might not have that luck for a few years!
> 
> *My ex husband is now married to the woman he started dating before we were even living in separate houses! He met her at an event and never even had to date!! He is no prize. It was just freaking luck!*


My ex husband is still dating his AP and things are looking great for them. He is planning on introducing her to our son this summer. It doesn't even cause me to raise an eyebrow that's how few s***s I give. 

But you are right. I can't compare myself and my situation to others. I have to live my life as if I'll never meet another person and be content with it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> That would be awesome. I have only 2 divorced friends and they look to me to lead the way. One hasn't dated in over 6 years and the other won't leave her house.:frown2:
> 
> ETA: I have met some fantastic single ladies *in their mid 60s*. These women are firecrackers.


Ha ha, yeah I'm sure they are fun...but I am quite a bit younger than that and if we hung out we would NOT be hanging around the mid 60's crowd. :wink2:


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

OK - to semi quote a song... you don't drink, you don't smoke, what do you do ? I am not trying to be mean. Tell me why guys you meet should want to date you for a long term commitment. What would make them want to date you multiple times ? 

Do you dance ? I mean let loose and dance. What do you do to enjoy life ?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ha ha, yeah I'm sure they are fun...but I am quite a bit younger than that and if we hung out we would NOT be hanging around the mid 60's crowd. :wink2:


LOL, I know YOU are not 60 FW. I met these ladies through a social meetup. I didn't realize the group was primarily made up by the +60 crowd but they welcomed me with arms wide open. The single ladies in the group are hilarious. They are cougars and they love telling my why :laugh:. Meanwhile, 60+ year old men are having a whole other set of problems. I was at a group event one night and sat at the bar to eat next to an attractive, fit, and wealthy 64 year old man and his buddies. He and I got to chatting and he complained that the women of the group (very attractive and wealthy ladies themselves) would not give him or his friends the time of day. When I asked him why he thought that was the case, he gave me a lesson in math - 30 goes into 60 more times than 60 goes into 30 :wink2::laugh::laugh: I love my senior group. They always make me laugh.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2&out said:


> OK - to semi quote a song... you don't drink, you don't smoke, what do you do ? I am not trying to be mean. Tell me why guys you meet should want to date you for a long term commitment. What would make them want to date you multiple times ?
> 
> Do you dance ? I mean let loose and dance. What do you do to enjoy life ?


Actually I do dance and really, really well but a lot of good that does me here. That's one of favorite activities but there are not many straight men who participate. I went to meetup hosted at a dance studio and there were 23 women and 2 men. Luckily, the gay instructor made me his teaching partner. I had a great time. Not so sure about the other 22 women.

And I do enjoy socializing and going out. I love live music, dancing, boating, fun in the sun activities. 

Honestly @2&out if it takes me to be a drinker, smoker, and/or junk food fanatic to find a "quality" man, then I'll pass. I don't have a problem with them doing some drinking but everything else is just unhealthy.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I am glad to hear that. So there IS something you like to do and feel you do well. So pursue it. Do you ballroom dance ? Want to learn ? Find a real dance studio and join. It will be healthy, active, and something to do for yourself. And maybe you'll meet some people. Who might know some other people.. etc. 

PS. Bet I can blow you right off the dance floor. It's one of my "skills" - and has contributed substantially to my checkered past. Some find it exciting. LOL.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

We are all going to die - and we don't know when. Healthy is relative. Body health, mental, etc. Any excess is bad IMHO - including so called "healthy" habits.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> It's finding the Ying your Yang but you must have had a baseline of qualities in your mind to start your search. Did you date every single woman who was interested in you? Probably not. You probably had criteria to cull the herd. Those criteria would be your definition of a quality woman.



I didn't argue your list of quality, because on the surface it is solid. Unfortunately, life is rarely so straight forward. 

My view is that attraction and love is not a list that can be ticked off. But I would never argue that you shouldn't have standards that you stick by.

I've done some things that I am not proud of but they don't necessarily reflect my current situation or values.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2&out said:


> I am glad to hear that. So there IS something you like to do and feel you do well. So pursue it. Do you ballroom dance ? Want to learn ? Find a real dance studio and join. It will be healthy, active, and something to do for yourself. And maybe you'll meet some people. Who might know some other people.. etc.


I mostly Latin dance and am on the wait list for my skill level at the dance studio near my house. They will call me when they get a another solo man to sign up. Right now they have more women than men taking my level of dance class. 



> PS. Bet I can blow you right off the dance floor. It's one of my "skills" - and has contributed substantially to my checkered past. Some find it exciting. LOL.


I'll be humble and say it's possible but my pride is screaming I don't think so 🙂


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> No, but I'm the queen at asking subtle indirect questions. One of my "gifts" is that I enjoy learning about other people so I ask a lot of how and why questions. Most of the men I've dated have said I am an excellent conversationalist - LMAO. No, I'm not a great conversationalist but people sure do love to talk about themselves. :wink2:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why would you think going out on dates and enjoying myself is a problem?


I think I see a pattern. I see you asking lots of these questions. Is it possible you think most folks are doing what you are doing? That is, looking for problems rather than just realizing folks are not trying to catch you in something.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I think I see a pattern. I see you asking lots of these questions. Is it possible you think most folks are doing what you are doing? That is, looking for problems rather than just realizing folks are not trying to catch you in something.


Most people date with a purpose whether that's finding their next long term partner, NSA sex, companionship, etc... I assume they are doing what I am doing as far as it relates to their purpose for dating.


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## Texican (Jan 11, 2012)

I met Ms gamboolgal when she was barely 17 yr old

Over 40 year later she still has me under her spell

Life is good.....
Planning to retire at the end of the year.....after 41 years in the oilpatch ......so I can devote my time to her.....chasing her around the old 4 poster buck neckid.....back in God's country......i.e., Texas 

Lifes A Dance And You Learn As You Go....
gamboolman & Ms. gamboolgal...


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> Actually I don't know what you mean at all. What do you mean by "at the end of the day... Men are men"?




I am a born again Christian and so was my husband. I know what is right and wrong. So of course we expect men, especially Christian men to be a certain way and have a certain value/trait/character. But at the end of the day.... men are still men. Meaning it’s in their biology to be... a certain way which seems shallow, and mean to us women... and it IS wrong and maybe even sinful depending however it’s still biology and inside them. 
I feel like when a man in here says he wants an attractive sexy women that that is offensive, but of course they do. Of course they value looks, it’s in their DNA.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> It's possible I am somewhat depressed. I have been avoiding going to the doctor's for fear they will put me on drugs which will mess up my brain chemistry for life. But then again, I hear that anti depressants give folks a "I don't care one way or the other" attitude so there's that.
> 
> Can you please explain what you mean by "looking after yourself and working on yourself"?




Don’t be scared of going to the doctors. And two... never take medicine you don’t want to take. Even if the doctor recommends it. 
I was depressed after separating with my ex husband... and I was fully aware that I was. But I also knew it was situational depression.... not depression depression.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I don't know what you mean at all. What do you mean by "at the end of the day... Men are men"?
> ...


I understand that men value looks. I don't have a problem with that in the least. I was just wondering if there were any other characteristics they also appreciate. Some do, some don't. The ones who can't see beyond the shell are probably not even going to show up on my radar so I don't need to worry about them. I need to focus on the men who are looking for more than a trophy.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> I understand that men value looks. I don't have a problem with that in the least. I was just wondering if there were any other characteristics they also appreciate. Some do, some don't. The ones who can't see beyond the shell are probably not even going to show up on my radar so I don't need to worry about them. I need to focus on the men who are looking for more than a trophy.




Just because a man wants to be attracted to his wife doesn’t mean he wants a trophy, or means he doesn’t have character. 
What people value is dependent on who they are, which is amazing! There really is someone for everyone. It may just take time to find them.

Also... do you mind what the issue was In your marriage as to why your ex asked for a divorce? 

Also I just wanted to say that... we always want to be around someone who makes us happy and who makes us feel good about who WE are. I dated this guy one time who I really liked, and I was a total catch for him (and he was for me too). But anyway... apparently I made him feel bad about who he was by just being who I am if that makes sense. I eat healthy, I run, and workout, and get dressed up, and make my bed, and go to church etc. I never preached to him or told him to do any of these things.... but it still made him feel like poop. And I was really frustrated because I treated him so nicely and he told me I was the best looking girl he dated and we had the best sex etc. so I was upset and baffled why he ended it with me and didn’t know what I could of done differently because I really liked him. Anyway... we eventually talked later about it and at the end of the day... I just made him feel bad. And obviously that is his own issue but my point is... we can make lists all day of qualities we want but there is nothing better than being with someone who makes you happy, and laugh, and makes you feel good about who YOU are.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I understand that men value looks. I don't have a problem with that in the least. I was just wondering if there were any other characteristics they also appreciate. Some do, some don't. The ones who can't see beyond the shell are probably not even going to show up on my radar so I don't need to worry about them. I need to focus on the men who are looking for more than a trophy.
> ...



If the ONLY thing a man wants is a physically attractive wife then he's looking for a trophy. That's the very definition of that word. And if that's all they value, then that's all I need to know about their character. They are not the one for me. 



> Also... do you mind what the issue was In your marriage as to why your ex asked for a divorce?


You can look back through my post history if you'd like more information on all that. 



> Also I just wanted to say that... we always want to be around someone who makes us happy and who makes us feel good about who WE are. I dated this guy one time who I really liked, and I was a total catch for him (and he was for me too). But anyway... apparently I made him feel bad about who he was by just being who I am if that makes sense. I eat healthy, I run, and workout, and get dressed up, and make my bed, and go to church etc. I never preached to him or told him to do any of these things.... but it still made him feel like poop. And I was really frustrated because I treated him so nicely and he told me I was the best looking girl he dated and we had the best sex etc. so I was upset and baffled why he ended it with me and didn’t know what I could of done differently because I really liked him. Anyway... we eventually talked later about it and at the end of the day... I just made him feel bad. And obviously that is his own issue but my point is... *we can make lists all day of qualities we want but there is nothing better than being with someone who makes you happy, and laugh, and makes you feel good about who YOU are*.


I'm not looking for anyone to make me happy or make me feel good about myself. I am looking for someone who is happy with himself and happy to be with me, and who is willing to share in my life and allow me to share in his.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> If the ONLY thing a man wants is a physically attractive wife then he's looking for a trophy. That's the very definition of that word. And if that's all they value, then that's all I need to know about their character. They are not the one for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think your missing my point but ok. You seem to want to rebuttal instead of understanding. My point is that you can be happy with yourself and be with someone who meets all your checkboxes and looks good on paper so to speak but you find when you are together it’s just blah. Even if he is into you and your into him. And there are people you wouldn’t normally choose, but have great chemistry and banter and connection with and they just make you feel good when your around them. These are things that can’t be explained to people just felt and understood. It’s like why would someone choose one person over another... most of the time it’s not because a quantified attribute like she’s prettier, or she had less sexual partners, or she is smarter... it’s usually like I don’t know how to explain it but she makes me FEEL a certain way. And that way is not something that could be articulated, it’s something that can only be felt by the person. So bystanders are baffled but when your in it... it’s just understood if that makes sense.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

One of my best friends had such a hard time finding a husband. She is born again Christian, waited till marriage to have sex, pretty, sweet, smart, educated, good job, funny but for some reason guys would always choose other girls over her. 
If you list her qualities on a piece of paper it would be bigger than most. But there is something about her energy Or something that can’t be explained. She like drains me, or makes me feel bad, or makes me feel bad for her. It’s hard to explain. And there are other people who I hang out with and they just give me life! They are light and funny and just have good spirits about them that make me want to be around them.

My point is that some people just want a simple answer to their “problems”... like asking what qualities makes a good women. And obviously no one will say that don’t want a quality women. But at the end of the day.... it’s universal to want to be with someone that just makes you feel good and happy.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I love talking to people about things that are SUPER passionate about something. It could be anything and I just get so into it. Because they just light up, and they are so happy and they are so alive and their passion is palpable to me and it makes me get excited and want to learn. This energy is the best to be around. 
That’s why people always say work on yourself, get passions and hobbies. You want to be excited and interested in things. You need to have your own exciting life. People want to be around people like that.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I think your missing my point but ok. You seem to want to rebuttal instead of understanding.


No, but you seem to keep moving the goal posts on me. 

First you said that it's in a man's DNA to want a physically attractive woman to which I responded that any man "*who can't see beyond the shell* [is] probably not even going to show up on my radar. I need to focus on the men who are looking for more than a trophy." You defended that men who want an attractive wife are not necessarily looking for a trophy when my comment was directed specifically to men who can't see beyond the physical to the actual qualities of a specific person. That is the definition of wanting a trophy: only interested in physical attributes. 




Girl_power said:


> My point is that you can be happy with yourself and be with someone who meets all your checkboxes and looks good on paper so to speak but you find when you are together it’s just blah. Even if he is into you and your into him. And there are people you wouldn’t normally choose, but have great chemistry and banter and connection and they just make you feel good when your around them. These are things that can’t be explained to people just felt and understood. It’s like why would someone choose one person over another... most of the time it’s not because a quantified attribute like she’s prettier, or she had less sexual partners, or she is smarter... it’s usually like I don’t know how to explain it but she makes me FEEL a certain way. And that way is not something that could be articulated, it’s something that can only be felt by the person. So by standers are baffled but when your in it... it’s just understood if that makes sense.



I understand there has to be chemistry between two people nevertheless men (as well as women) have certain general qualities they seek in a partner. I mean people don't just date everyone they come in contact with that is available, right?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> One of my best friends had such a hard time finding a husband. She is born again Christian, waited till marriage to have sex, pretty, sweet, smart, educated, good job, funny but for some reason guys would always choose other girls over her.
> If you list her qualities on a piece of paper it would be bigger than most. But there is something about her energy Or something that can’t be explained. She like drains me, or makes me feel bad, or makes me feel bad for her. It’s hard to explain. And there are other people who I hang out with and they just give me life! They are light and funny and just have good spirits about them that make me want to be around them.
> 
> *My point is that some people just want a simple answer to their “problems”... like asking what qualities makes a good women. And obviously no one will say that don’t want a quality women. But at the end of the day.... it’s universal to want to be with someone that just makes you feel good and happy.*


So you think there are people that just have negative energy/auras that repels others? And the ones that have the attractive energy find partners but the ones with the negative energy repels them?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> So you think there are people that just have negative energy/auras that repels others? And the ones that have the attractive energy find partners but the ones with the negative energy repels them?




I’m saying that is one of the many reasons why people choose to be or not to be with certain people. And it’s an important reason. 
Sometimes you can’t explain it... but a certain person may just make you happy and feel good. While others drain you.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I’m saying that is one of the many reasons why people choose to be or not to be with certain people. And it’s an important reason.
> Sometimes you can’t explain it... but a certain person may just make you happy and feel good. While others drain you.


Well then there must be a lot of energy draining out there because there are whole lot of lonely single people in the world. And it doesn't look to be improving for them. 

This is going to sound morbid but I am thinking about making some money from this population. A close family friend owns nursing home facilities and is looking to grow the business. With the steep rise in the number of never marrieds and over 50 divorcees, they see a potential windfall in the next 10 years from all of the people expected to be single in their Golden years with little to no emotional or physical support, especially men. They have developed a business plan for affordable but holistic retirement/nursing homes targeting this group.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> Well then there must be a lot of energy draining out there because there are whole lot of lonely single people in the world. And it doesn't look to be improving for them.
> 
> This is going to sound morbid but I am thinking about making some money from this population. A close family friend owns nursing home facilities and is looking to grow the business. With the steep rise in the number of never marrieds and over 50 divorcees, they see a potential windfall in the next 10 years from all of the people expected to be single in their Golden years with little to no emotional or physical support, especially men. They have developed a business plan for affordable but holistic retirement/nursing homes targeting this group.




But why does one have to be lonely and single? No one wants to be with these people. Why can’t you be single and thriving and happy?!? I’ll tell you why... it’s because as soon as people decide to be happy and thrive as a single person... they attract someone who wants to be around them and values them and they will not be single for long.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> But why does one have to be lonely and single? No one wants to be with these people. Why can’t you be single and thriving and happy?!? I’ll tell you why... it’s because as soon as people decide to be happy and thrive as a single person... *they attract someone who wants to be around them and values them and they will not be single for long*.



I can agree with you that one doesn't have to be lonely but I disagree that by being single, thriving, and happy means they will attract someone and won't be single for long.

Weren't you the one that was talking about "chemistry" and "feelings"? You even mentioned your friend who is pretty, sweet, smart, educated, good job, and funny but who you said made you feel bad for some reason. 

People who are single, thriving, and happy can guarantee they will be "single, thriving, and happy". They cannot guarantee they will find a partner.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> I can agree with you that one doesn't have to be lonely but I disagree that by being single, thriving, and happy means they will attract someone and won't be single for long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My best friend was dying to get married. She legit ended up with a man from El Salvador who was previously married and has kids. He now has a green card.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> My best friend was dying to get married. She legit ended up with a man from El Salvador who was previously married and has kids. He now has a green card.


What's wrong with the man she married? Is she happy? Do they have chemistry?

ETA: I get the feeling you find him lacking somehow because he came from El Salvador and is divorced with kids. Would it have made a difference if he was an American divorced with kids?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Most people enjoy being around other people who are happy. This can lead to a difficult latch-up situation for someone who is unhappy if they are not in a relationship.






Lila said:


> I understand that men value looks. I don't have a problem with that in the least. I was just wondering if there were any other characteristics they also appreciate. Some do, some don't. The ones who can't see beyond the shell are probably not even going to show up on my radar so I don't need to worry about them. I need to focus on the men who are looking for more than a trophy.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Lila said:


> What's wrong with the man she married? Is she happy? Do they have chemistry?
> 
> ETA: I* get the feeling you find him lacking somehow because he came from El Salvador* and is divorced with kids. Would it have made a difference if he was an American divorced with kids?


Probably because it sounds like a user situation in order for him to get his green card.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lila said:


> What's wrong with the man she married? Is she happy? Do they have chemistry?
> 
> ETA: I get the feeling you find him lacking somehow because he came from El Salvador and is divorced with kids. Would it have made a difference if he was an American divorced with kids?




There is nothing wrong with him. I have no issue at all. There were some red flags with him “rushing” into things but that isn’t my business. 

Are they happy? Sure. She says she is. They don’t seem to have much chemistry. She does talk about their sex life lacking and she is still a newly wed.


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