# Coming to the long overdue end ...



## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Married 18 years, together 21, papers served, but my wife still doesn't accept it. 

Backstory (as short as I can). Left my country in mid-90s (friends, family, career, etc.) to be with my dream woman after 1 year LDR. Struggled from the off TBH, regular squabbles, thought it was my adjustment to new country & restarting career, etc. Got married quickish and straight to kids. And then it quickly starts to collapse. 

Within a month of becoming pregnant after year of marriage the mood swings go from occasional to constant, the sex stops, all communication is her complaining and accusing. I was a rabbit in the headlights and go full-beta to accommodate and placate her, but no change. She can occasionally play nice, but explodes at the slightest hint of offence - I reply with the Nice-Guys preferred weapon of passive-aggression (equally pathetic, of course). 

Her work hours (afternoon/evening shift at newspaper) mean we only see each other from Friday evening to Sunday morning. This also means I do all the childcare (dropoff, pickup, feeding, bathing, etc.), and I'm forced to give up the career (again) to take a consulting 'job' where I can leave office at 4:30 like a single-parent. Family holidays and day-trips are out as it is just a anger fest of bossiness and entitlement. We stay together 'for the kids' and 'cos I would lose access to them if we divorce.

By early 2012 after over a decade of this BS, she has given up working, the kids are young teens and I (finally) reach breaking point (she got violent in front of kids amongst other things). I express the need to fix relationship and ask for counselling, she refuses.

She spends most of 2012 and 2013 years throwing tantrums at me and the kids, and demanding a divorce every week or two whenever she doesn't get her way (or the respect she deserves). I drop the passive-aggression and try I follow the MMSL & NMMNG repair programs, get myself in shape and together, but she remains belligerent. We reach ultimatum point in December 2013; I offer go to counselling or sign the prepared divorce papers. After a few more tantrums, she opts for counselling. A month into that and she suddenly restarts the sex life, and in full-force (3-4 per week, awesome stuff too). However, after a few months of a real relationship (with fun conversations and everything!), she invents that I am having an affair (a recurring theme) and the tantrums return. By December 2014 the counsellor agrees we have no choice but to separate. We reluctantly agree as her tantrums have returned weekly/daily in full force. I go full 180. 

It is weird, she seems to refuse to accept we are getting a divorce. She says she'll get a lawyer to process the paper I gave her in December, but nothing. She initiates cuddles in bed, even offered sex when she got real drunk one night (I respectfully asked to 'spoon' instead), she says I need to make up my mind (which I remind her I have, hence the divorce papers in her hand), just endless. Screaming tantrums every week, sometimes several per week, but then a mood swing kicks in and she says she loves me and want to continue the marriage, then I'm a 'fraud, pervert, cheater, etc.', so the cycle goes. 

I've instructed my lawyer to go direct to court. I was expecting an ugly divorce with parental alienation, I get the feeling I'm underestimating how horrible the next few months will be.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

It sounds like a horrible situation, I'm sorry that you are going through this, as well as your family.

The best thing to do is communicate openly, and she needs to stop constantly yelling and screaming. That behaviour is not acceptable.

My question is, why does she feel that you are cheating and having an affair? I think all of her outbursts are mainly due to the fact that she doesn't trust you, and is lashing out at you, but at the same time ultimately doesn't want to lose the marriage.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Not to diagnose via forum, but do you think she has some underlying mental illness? You situation sounds eerily familiar to someone I know whose spouse has borderline personality disorder. 

You might want to check into it and see if the shoe fits. Doesn't really change what you should do as it's broadly thought to be not treatable. But understanding it might give you some tools in dealing with her during the divorce to keep things as calm and rationale as possible.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> My question is, why does she feel that you are cheating and having an affair? I think all of her outbursts are mainly due to the fact that she doesn't trust you, and is lashing out at you, but at the same time ultimately doesn't want to lose the marriage.


Thanks Pekoe, she certainly doesn't trust me, no doubt, I could recount endless anecdotes. The affair accusations date back to weeks after I arrived in her country (20 years), and have continued every year or two since. I've never cheated, and as we don't socialise much so it's not like she sees me chatting/laughing with women regularly. But we don't communicate, and I certainly never went out of my way to engage with her - mostly 'cos it always ends bad (and I got real passive-aggressive and turned the pissy up to 11 sometimes, yeah, real attractive!). That changed 3 years ago as I tried to salvage something, but the tantrums just grew in frequency and intensity. 

So, in the absence of any real communication I guess she makes stuff up and then believes it, and treats me accordingly. She just seems frightened mostly, if things aren't done her way or if she doesn't gets 'respect', then the verbal fire-hose is engaged. 



Acoa said:


> Not to diagnose via forum, but do you think she has some underlying mental illness? You situation sounds eerily familiar to someone I know whose spouse has borderline personality disorder.


Indeed, I read 'Eggshells' 3 years ago and it scared me to the core. Weirdly, a few weeks after I finished it and as I tried to reengage in relationship conversations, she mentioned (laughingly!) that she'd been diagnosed twice with borderline. However, the 2 diagnoses were unreliable as one was some new-age alt-med scammer and the other was a family doctor (she probably threw a tantrum with them!). So, she doesn't accept the diagnosis. 

In fact she has accused me of being borderline on occasion (but she regularly regurgitates my comment/accusations of her back to me). I mentioned these incidents to our MC last year, and asked for her opinion if either of us were borderline, but no response. TBH, it doesn't matter. If true then she is high-functioning (had a great corporate job for 15 years). Either way, she choses this behaviour and nothing I say makes her consider she has any fault (I provoke her). Abusers gonna abuse.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

delupt said:


> Thanks Pekoe, she certainly doesn't trust me, no doubt, I could recount endless anecdotes. The affair accusations date back to weeks after I arrived in her country (20 years), and have continued every year or two since. I've never cheated, and as we don't socialise much so it's not like she sees me chatting/laughing with women regularly. But we don't communicate, and I certainly never went out of my way to engage with her - mostly 'cos it always ends bad (and I got real passive-aggressive and turned the pissy up to 11 sometimes, yeah, real attractive!). That changed 3 years ago as I tried to salvage something, but the tantrums just grew in frequency and intensity.
> 
> So, in the absence of any real communication I guess she makes stuff up and then believes it, and treats me accordingly. She just seems frightened mostly, if things aren't done her way or if she doesn't gets 'respect', then the verbal fire-hose is engaged.
> 
> ...


Her behaviour sounds so strange, almost paranoiac. I agree with the other poster that she might have some personality disorder...it sounds awful that you've had to deal with it for so long. How are the kids coping? It must affect them greatly as well.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

The high-conflict era only really began 3 years ago after she had been (voluntarily) out of work for a year or so. The increased conflict seems to have been triggered by my (often clumsy, but ultimately ineffective) attempts to shake-up the marriage in the hope of salvaging something. 

For most of the marriage, we were effectively both single-parents: wife took kids to creche/school & worked afternoon/evening shifts, I picked kids up after work & did the rest including all the weekend stuff (as she needed her rest). We had very few hours per week in the house together so little opportunity to squabble. I had full exclusive access to the kids and loved it - and as a puerile passive-aggressive nice-guy, I basically ignored her (aggravating an already bad situation).

The kids are getting sick and tired of it of course, but we have not yet told them about the divorce. I want us to at least have reached some basic agreements with our respective lawyers before we go public. The problem has been getting my wife to get the process going. 

Despite all the nasty threatening things she regularly says about me when she is triggered (I mean, when I 'provoke' her), she evidently wants to remain married and cannot accept we're getting divorced. Consequently she is occasional uber-friendly, lovey-dovey and chatty as if everything is perfect. Apparently, her regular high-volume, foaming-at-the-mouth, in-front-of-kids threats of divorce, insults, shaming and DARVO are just 'cries for help' - whatever happened to conversation, dialogue and compromise as a means to conflict resolution?


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

delupt said:


> Thanks Pekoe, she certainly doesn't trust me, no doubt, I could recount endless anecdotes. The affair accusations date back to weeks after I arrived in her country (20 years), and have continued every year or two since. I've never cheated, and as we don't socialise much so it's not like she sees me chatting/laughing with women regularly. But we don't communicate, and I certainly never went out of my way to engage with her - mostly 'cos it always ends bad (and I got real passive-aggressive and turned the pissy up to 11 sometimes, yeah, real attractive!). That changed 3 years ago as I tried to salvage something, but the tantrums just grew in frequency and intensity.
> 
> So, in the absence of any real communication I guess she makes stuff up and then believes it, and treats me accordingly. She just seems frightened mostly, if things aren't done her way or if she doesn't gets 'respect', then the verbal fire-hose is engaged.
> 
> ...


The point - at least when I do it - of flagging a PD is to give confused OPs a pointer as to what MIGHT be up with their 'crazy' spouse and what they MIGHT be in for. Then, they can read up on it and/or seek therapy, treatment or whatever. Also, many baffled OPs, upon learning they're dealing with an illness rather than 'just plain crazy' find new reasons to stay. Certainly, it can help. Knowledge being power 'n'all.

Not really the case here,, since you already know about it. And, yep, abusers will abuse and crazy is as crazy does.

Cluster disorders will present behaviours from across the entire spectrum, so a 'good guide' is the best you'll get from a diagnosis anyway.

Everything about your wife screams BPD with a strong narcissistic bent. BPDs without the narcissism are typically less 'ragey' and tend to hate themselves rather than those around them.

The more you type, the more N/BPD she becomes. Not accepting a dignosis,, par for the course. I'm surprised she even went. If the diagnosis came with a large, monetary handout she might accept it, but only so she could buy something she's fixated on. Anything that doesn't advantage a N/BPD is of no interest to them.

Your divorce WILL be as difficult as she can make it. She won't be fully invested in your 'betrayal' until the practicalities begin. Then she'll fight not just for the stuff she wants but for the stuff she doesn't want you to have - read EVERYTHING.

Like with her diagnosis,, she won't accept decisions that go against her either. Anyone not seeing it her way is 'incompetent',, even a 'co-conspiritor' depending on how 'bad' her condition is. Expect appeals.

If you're lucky,, during the seperation she'll become fixated on somebody else so her hatred of you will become a shared priority as she flips from one to the other. She won't forget,, but you'll get some intermittent respite.

Be aware of the potential for break-up violence - the most dangerous time for both genders. Absent a gun,, blitz attacks while you're asleep are a common method of the N/BPD female.

I wish you all the luck in the world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Flying_Dutchman said:


> The more you type, the more N/BPD she becomes. Not accepting a dignosis,, par for the course. I'm surprised she even went.


I did say she was 'diagnosed', but that isn't strictly true. She said that 2 people (1 alt-med woo-merchant and a general family doctor, not our usual one) had 'suspected' it. I think she expected me to join in saying how ridiculous that was, I said nothing. I am just curious why either of them would bring this up, hence my suggestion she must have gone-off with them, otherwise why would they mention it? She has admitted to having depression 4 years ago and took some medication (I knew nothing about it at the time). Curiously, looking back, that was a good summer of low-conflict and some positive intimate times together (probably thanks to the meds!). Ironically, it probably even started the process to trying to properly reconcile. 

Still not sure she's borderline. I reckon it is like ADHD; a problem for a tiny percent, but used as a blanket 'disease' for bad behaviour. What are the odds I got that 1%? Probably better than I care to admit. But maybe it is partly just denial on my part somewhere deep down. I don't see any difference either way. I'm forewarned if true, but can do nothing about it either way. 



Flying_Dutchman said:


> If you're lucky,, during the seperation she'll become fixated on somebody else so her hatred of you will become a shared priority as she flips from one to the other.


I doubt it. One constant has been her extreme deep hatred of cheating. Of course, her accusing me made me suspect her, but exhaustive snooping (I'm a techy, she can barely use SMS) showed nothing. No one likes cheating, goes without saying, but it's deeper with her, must be some history I don't know about.



Flying_Dutchman said:


> Be aware of the potential for break-up violence - the most dangerous time for both genders. Absent a gun,, blitz attacks while you're asleep are a common method of the N/BPD female.
> 
> I wish you all the luck in the world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I try not to dwell on this. My lawyer has been informed that she has been occasionally violent in the past (1 punch and a few deep scratched from nails), not that that is any protection. I run with a voice recorder, especially when I see trouble brewing. We'll be bed-sharing until the house is sold, so 'awkward' doesn't really sum it up!


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Hehe. Who really knows?

Even if you had a nailed down, confirmed diagnosis,, BPD/ADHD,, she's still YOUR unique example. 

You gotta deal with what you've got.

ADHD? Typically improves with age. Innattentive. Well, she's inattentive to you. Short attention span. These things are present daily. Attention flips can be every few minutes. They can rage,, but the easy distraction tends to interfere with it and they forget it.

Whatever the behaviour or the individual's 'flip cycle',,, taking a week off to enjoy a sex-life before returning to default ain't in the ADHD 'manual'.

It's typical BPD though. As are the rages and ever-present criticisms. Likely,, she's VERY focussed on her current 'project' and you're a distraction from it - an irritation. It's not for no reason that the BPDs spouse suffers the most.

Distract you from a movie,, no big deal once or twice. 10 or more and you'll be pìssy. BPDs go direct to 10. Nothing or infuriating. There's no grey - though they can mimic it in the workplace and elsewhere, when they want to.

'Sex week', taken with the rest, sounds like a BPD 'project'. Keeping you sweet to stop you leaving. THAT week, the marriage was important for reasons best known to her.

Horny doesn't explain a few days. If that rises to the top of a BPDs priorities,, she'll seduce you between scorn and rages.

I'd be planning for a difficult divorce. A focussed assault on everything you own.

If it turns out to be ADHD,, maybe she'll forget to show up.

Either way, I wish you luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Quick update ...

Watched a movie with wife on Sunday evening + few glasses of wine. Period movie about an illusionist/magician. I commented that I through movie was nice enough and pleasant evening. Wife quietly goes to bed, but comes down 10 mins later and explodes with rage about how she isn't surprised I liked the movie because (apparently) I am an illusionist who tricks and coerces people ,blah, blah. More insults and shaming, broken record, I calmly acknowledge her concern and suggest we talk about it later, then leave the room. She follows to continue, but soon gets bored. Regular occurrence, just never know what the trigger will be.

Got scary with my eldest son (15 yrs) last night, and this is a whole lot worse. Wife and eldest son have been having regular slanging matches for years. Neither can de-escalate any conversation so minor squabbles are daily, and major blowouts (by both of them) occur a couple of times per month at least. I usually jump in to shut down the conversations as son can lose it and shows an alarming lack of self-control (mostly to wife), but not last night ...

I was out at neighbours, it seems wife and eldest son got into one, he got unpleasant (cussing and pushing furniture around). Ran upstairs in frustration. He then sneaked out of the house and went to a friends for the night. We had no idea where he was. Wife called me and I spent 2 hours searching our town calling in on a few likely friends, he switched mobile off. 

A very unpleasant night. Got text from him in morning and picked him up. He's gonna face consequences, grounded & wifi-removed until Easter I reckon, but I feel helpless sometimes. They both kickoff and cannot resolve issues without shouting louder, endless escalation and need for the last word (wife equates compliance with 'respect'). Wife just talks him down and talks over him endlessly, he gets frustrated and can snap (teenager full of testosterone). Wife sees no fault on her, only me disrespecting her for calling her out on inability to have 2-way conversations.

He obviously has anger issues, but unlike my wife, he recognises it. He's asked to see a shrink and maybe it can do no harm, I'm failing to resolve this, hence the divorce.

But post-divorce, I cannot see him wanting to be with her, and I strongly believe in a 50-50 split and intend to encourage/enforce it. Parental alienation is something that terrifies me, but I cannot properly support him without conceding she is as much at fault as him. But criticising a co-parent undermines it. My wife of course has no such moral/empathy issues, she'll call me out as a bad father at a moments notice!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

In my state in the U. S., a child can choose at 14 who they want to live with. Is it the same where you are? Dealing with a teenager and divorce can be a very difficult thing -- especially if the child doesn't want to see one of the parents (let alone live with that parent half the time). And he may also be picking up on the tension between you and your wife since few things escape children. Counseling might help smooth the transition.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

delupt said:


> ...she mentioned (laughingly!) that she'd been diagnosed twice with borderline....she doesn't accept the diagnosis.




I definitely think you are doing the right thing by proceeding with divorce. You might want to check out this video that tom67 posted on another thread. Another poster here (check out Blacksmith01 thread) said it helped him immensely in dealing with his likely-borderline ex-wife. It's an hour long, but well worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPWwWQJYX5Y


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Openminded said:


> In my state in the U. S., a child can choose at 14 who they want to live with. Is it the same where you are?
> <snip>
> And he may also be picking up on the tension between you and your wife since few things escape children. Counseling might help smooth the transition.


Thanks Openminded, and indeed, I have heard that the kids could choose once a teenager (not sure if that is 12 or 14 over here). I'm a strong believer in 50/50 share, and want that, but increasingly, even the (quieter and more thoughtful) 13 YO is losing patience. 

Kids certainly picking up on the tension. The last 3 years of shake-up and MC has pushed all her buttons resulting in her becoming increasingly high-conflict - we barely communicated for the decade before that so tantrums were minimal. Kids get it all (even woken up a few times during late nighters to be told to "witness what a horrible man your father is"), many of the neighbours too as she's not averse to following me to the car to continue the anger-fest.

He's asked for counselling, so I'll try to arrange something.



happy as a clam said:


> I definitely think you are doing the right thing by proceeding with divorce. You might want to check out this video that tom67 posted on another thread.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPWwWQJYX5Y


Thanks Happy Clam, I'm halfway thru it. I spoke with Dr. Tara P 18 months ago just before I first served the divorce papers (online counselling session). Very useful and good advice as the fog was still clearing.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Delupt, I agree with *Acoa, Orange, and Dutchman* that the behaviors you describe are some of the classic warning signs for high functioning BPD and, to a lesser extent, NPD. But, of course, only a professional can diagnose her issues -- i.e., determine whether your W's BPD traits are so severe and persistent as to constitute having full-blown BPD.



delupt said:


> TBH, it doesn't matter. If true then she is high-functioning [borderline].


Actually, it does matter, given that you have two children in the early teens. BPD is believed to be passed from parent to child partly through genes and partly through early childhood environment before age five (e.g., abuse or withholding of affection by mother). The BPD traits typically do not start showing strongly, however, until about age 13 -- when puberty and the hormones are activated. 

I therefore applaud you decision to get your 15 year old son evaluated by a psychologist. Moreover, I agree with you that it is a very good sign that, despite his anger problems, he exhibits a high level of self awareness of his anger issues and lack of impulse control. Most therapists refuse to diagnose BPD until a person has reached 18 because, during the early and mid-teens, most normal teenagers are so rebellious and acting out with anger that it is difficult to distinguish them from BPDers. Even so, it will be good for your son to see a professional if your W actually does abuse him due to her having strong BPD traits that make her emotionally unstable.



> she evidently wants to remain married and cannot accept we're getting divorced.


If she really does have strong and persistent BPD traits, this behavior is not unexpected. It is common for a BPDer to yell and throw temper tantrums and then tell his/her spouse not to divorce. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_ (You've already read the _Eggshells _book, which is the #1 best selling BPD book.)



> Still not sure she's borderline. I reckon it is like ADHD; a problem for a tiny percent, but used as a blanket 'disease' for bad behaviour. What are the odds I got that 1%?


Like you, Delupt, I don't know whether your W has full-blown BPD or not. Statistically, however, her odds of having it are 6%, not 1%. The 6% figure was found in the only large-scale study ever done. The study, which was funded by the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health, was very expensive and took several years to complete because the researchers did face-to-face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults. See 2008 Study in JCP at p. 1.

Significantly, that 6% figure excludes those people who met only 70% or 80% of the diagnostic criteria (thus "not having BPD") -- even though they would be nearly as impossible to live with as a person satisfying 100%.

I was married to a BPDer for 15 years. If you would like to read about my experiences with my exW, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of red flags at _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *Acoa, Orange, and Dutchman *in discussing them with you. Take care, Delupt.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Delupt - I would ask the parents of the kid your boy ran to how he behaves round there. I predict the answer will be "Good as gold."

Disturbing parallels to my own youth. Acting up to avenge injustice.

Had I been a true delinquent, I would've acted up anywhere. Nope, no problems with other parents. No problems at my sports clubs. Only home and school. Unjustly punishing kids to conform only makes them worse.

I'm all for united parenting,, but when one parent is seriously fùcked up and is BLATANTLY being a bad parent,,, you don't support the bad and punish the kid who's reacting to the bad in the manner that the bad parent taught him. 

That's unjust. No wonder he's furious and running away.

His mother is supposed to be teaching him NOT to yell n scream. She can't (or won't). Either way,, she's the adult and should be setting him a correct example. Since she's setting an incorrect example,, you don't compound the error by justifying it. There is no justifying it. Following him around, pressing his buttons and shouting at him isn't justifiable.

You may've learnt to walk away with her squawking along behind but you're an adult. Probably an adult raised in an environment where one parent didn't teach you that screaming rages were the norm.

He's a teenager,, already beset with teenage angst of his own. Maybe some other kid beat him at Halo or a group of hot girls laughed at him. Whatever the latest teen drama,, he doesn't need one parent screaming at him, the other parent supporting the screamer,, then being punished for copying what you BOTH presented to him as acceptable behaviour. It's every kind of wrong.

How you deal with her assaults on you is up to you. If it's easier to ignore her, fine. It hasn't bought you an easy time though, has it? 

Similarly, I doubt she appreciates you supporting her rages against your son for long. Five minutes of peace isn't worth fúcking your son up for. He needs protecting from her rages,, not punishing cuz he hasn't mastered your adult coping skills.

If she attacked him with a rolling pin, I'm sure you'd think that'd be going too far. Well, she's going too far already with your son. You drag her away, kicking and screaming if necessary. She's the one in the wrong. You don't support that. If you can't remove her,, let you son yell back at her if that's how he copes. Don't punish him for not being you, cuz he ain't. 

However you manage her 'crazy' in so far as it effects you is fine. Short of violence, I'll support and advise.

Where your son is concerned, though, you step in. You don't justify the 'crazy'. How would you like two of her after you? You support her, that's co-crazy parenting that'll fùck him up. He needs sane parenting. That'll be you on your own,, protecting him from his mother's rages.

Running away and wanting to see a counsellor should be ringing alarm bells. You supporting your wife's rages is why they're ringing.

I'll support your divorce and however you go about it. You've my every sympathy. THAT example of co-parenting though,, never in a million years. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Uptown said:


> I therefore applaud you decision to get your 15 year old son evaluated by a psychologist. Moreover, I agree with you that it is a very good sign that, despite his anger problems, he exhibits a high level of self awareness of his anger issues and lack of impulse control.


The appointments have been made for next weekend. I go in with wife first (no kids) to set the ground. That will be interesting. She will undoubtably going on about how threatened she is (she rang the house doctor yesterday in tears screaming to him about how she fears for her safety - according to the kids, who heard it all). I'll point out we're getting divorced because she is an abusive wife and has moved onto our eldest kid in recent years as I increasingly detached (after failing to save a marriage that was of course long doomed). 

I am wary of mentioning borderline though, I'm concerned they'll ignore it (as previous counsellor did) and assume I'm being manipulative (and take her 'side'). I'll point out the endless conflice with mother and hope they take it seriously.



Uptown said:


> I was married to a BPDer for 15 years. If you would like to read about my experiences with my exW, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of red flags


We have 'spoken' before. I had some threads on here from back in 2012/13 on this as I started my attempted reclamation (since deleted as part of a failed reconciliation last year where she managed to be a wife for 4 months before reverting to the mean - literally!). Borderline was on the radar back then, I was just too optimistic I could save it. Your advice then is as grounded as it is now, and greatly appreciated.



Flying_Dutchman said:


> If she attacked him with a rolling pin, I'm sure you'd think that'd be going too far. Well, she's going too far already with your son. You drag her away, kicking and screaming if necessary. She's the one in the wrong. You don't support that. If you can't remove her,, let you son yell back at her if that's how he copes. Don't punish him for not being you, cuz he ain't.
> <snip>
> I'll support your divorce and however you go about it. You've my every sympathy. THAT example of co-parenting though,, never in a million years.


Thanks Dutchman, I have trouble justifying either of their mutual rages, but of course, one is 'officially' a child and can't be blamed for acting like one. I can punish him for smashing up stuff and swearing, but she gets away with it in his eyes. We are of course divorcing because of this, but we haven't gone public with the kids yet (I wanted an initial lawyer meeting first). However, I now see that as a priority; they need to know. 

I burst into every fight I can to shut it down, I certainly don't sit cowering in the corner hoping it will stop (as I did occasionally way back). This of course infuriates the wife as I'm not supporting/respecting/submitting to her will, and cause more fights. This is not a problem for me, but it needs to end fast so the lawyer has been actioned to push straight to the judge. May still be 3-6 months minimum.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Had a fine day today. Wife out doing some course so nice lakeside lunch with the boys and afternoon activities in peace and calm. Later in evening, eldest kid and I have a 2 hour heart-to-heart. I just let him speak for the most part. He hates her more than I can imagine. I knew it of course, but still a long overdue shock. I am still concerned about parental alienation so am still reluctant to blindly agree with every complaint he has. I reiterate his anger is justified, but the need for control remains. We can't change other. But when your not being respected and someone is offensive, my advice is always to tell them to f*[email protected] off and ignore them (for ever). Hard to do that to your mother, but no choice now. 

Any advice on handling telling the kids about impending divorce? I can see the eldest kid demanding to live with me and never see her again. Don't blame him, me too. I'm reluctant to push for sole custody, but if he has a choice, he'll drop her.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

delupt said:


> I am wary of mentioning borderline though, I'm concerned they'll ignore it (as previous counsellor did) and assume I'm being manipulative (and take her 'side').


It is wise to be wary. Because high functioning BPDers are easily able to hide their dark side during a 50-minute meeting held every week or two, it is difficult for therapists to spot it. It can take them two years to see behaviors you see all week long. Moreover, even when they see it, therapists generally are loath to say anything about it to the client (much less to her H or insurance carrier) -- as I discuss in Loath to Diagnose. 

I therefore suggest that, if you suspect she has strong BPD traits and if she will be in the meeting with you, you discuss her apparent emotional instability and her inability to regulate her own emotions -- without mentioning the BPD term. I also suggest that, if you want a book to read, you take a look at _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. _It's written by the author of the best-selling _Eggshells_ book. 



> We have 'spoken' before. I had some threads on here from back in 2012/13 on this as I started my attempted reclamation (since deleted as part of a failed reconciliation last year where she managed to be a wife for 4 months before reverting to the mean - literally!). Borderline was on the radar back then, I was just too optimistic I could save it. Your advice then is as grounded as it is now, and greatly appreciated.


Whew! That makes me feel better, thanks. Your story and name sounded so familiar but I couldn't locate any written discussion we had had. I thought my memory was failing me.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

That's the crux of it. If you split them apart, he hears her squawking at you - "No change there!" - while he gets grounded and his wi-fi taken away. It's not just his eyes that see that as her getting away with it - it's the actuality.

Anyway. It's great you've had a talk with him. It lets him know he matters and his feelings/thoughts are considered. Nobody ever asked me. That leads to a fury neither you or your son want any part of. You've released a pressure valve there.

Any alienation she brought on herself. You can only ensure you don't bring it on yourself too by 'supporting' her against him. You just repaired much of any damage done there. Indeed, a good day.

He, at least, will likely be pleased about the divorce. With two of you for it the others will fall into line more readily. Any negatives should soon pass due to a new, less toxic environment.

Kids are resiliant and cope with near daily dramas. They cope with loving parents seperating. Doubt they'll be too broken up about missing the rages. Any readjustments should be relatively swift.

Nowt else too say, cept. Well done for the talk. If he smashed something a grounding isn't unreasonable. You could give him his wi-fi back, though. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Uptown said:


> I therefore suggest that, if you suspect she has strong BPD traits and if she will be in the meeting with you, you discuss her apparent emotional instability and her inability to regulate her own emotions -- without mentioning the BPD term.


Totally second this (and the rest of it) and will add,,,

SOME professionals get uppity when laypersons infringe upon 'their' territory. It's childish, but a good qualification never filled enough brain to evict an over-inflated ego.

You need them onside,, not hostile to you.

Not a direct concern for you,, but I've read 3 cases in the past few months of doctors calling CPS on parents for no reason other than the parents seeking a second opinion. They took the kids into 'care' too,, and swiftly messed one of them up. Another case of a child being taken and placed with a murderous, poorly vetted foster parent, cuz dad smoked a joint. 

Inept professionals can scréw up your life. Best to be cautious around them until you're sure they're 'of like mind'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Thanks fellas, agree on the 'don't mention the war' strategy concerning calling my wife out as borderline to shrinks. With the previous one, I started slipping in the BPD language to describe her behaviour; black & white, angels & demons, rapid mood swings, etc. in the hope of triggering something (maybe still too clumsy?).

I never accused her directly. The therapist was okay, but her bookshelf contained many feminist tomes so I was wary of her fundamental sympathies. The wife did once accuse me of borderline, so I related the story as a way to bring it up to therapist and asked her opinion as to whether either of us had more serious 'issues'. *Crickets*

And Flying Dutchman, you mentioning the childcare thing is surprisingly pertinent; I expect my wife would rather see her kids in care than solely living with me. What a disgusting thing to say, but the victim-narrative is strong with this one.

And thanks for all the responses to the thread; oddly, the fact that total strangers around the world with thousands of better things to do take time out to comment is so valuable.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think your elder son will be very relieved when you tell him about the divorce. And I'll be very surprised if he doesn't ask to be with you full time -- even if it means he only sees his brother part time. 

I know all of this is difficult. You are on the right path.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

The thought that one or both kids would want to be with me full-time only really fully dawned on me last week. I've been assuming a 50/50 split; it is something I very strongly believe in (having originally stayed in a failed marriage due to concerns of losing access due to being male and the 'tender years' dogma). But of course if teenagers decide otherwise, the judge will likely comply. What a tragedy though, it would destroy me to lose access to the kids, what would it do to my wife? What extremes will she go to once she realises that the kids could reject her?

Oh, and my younger son (13) asked what type of house/apartment I would live in 'if' me and mama ever get divorced. Just like he was asking what flavour ice-cream I prefer. Made me laugh! Turns out his main concern was that he wouldn't have to change school 'if' we divorce - reassurances given.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Children are very observant. More so than parents realize sometimes. It's certainly possible with two male teenage that the judge will agree to let them make the decision. If that happens, I hope their mom won't try to make them feel guilty for wanting to be with you.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Uptown said:


> It is wise to be wary. Because high functioning BPDers are easily able to hide their dark side during a 50-minute meeting held every week or two, it is difficult for therapists to spot it. It can take them two years to see behaviors you see all week long. Moreover, even when they see it, therapists generally are loath to say anything about it to the client (much less to her H or insurance carrier) -- as I discuss in Loath to Diagnose.


I find this information to be especially troubling. I agree with it completely, but it's beyond exasperating for the spouse and other family members to watch, week after week, as PD individual turns on the charm and continues to dupe the therapist.

How does one get around this obstacle Uptown? Is a VAR or hidden video camera useful for documentation, or are the docs loath to go that route? Perhaps you already answered this in your link above. I will go check it out now.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Some recordings wouldn't hurt.

The good news is that teenagers are excellent recorders,, especially if they're on the receiving end of squawky rages.

Somehow, I don't think VARs will be necessary for a positive result here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

happy as a clam said:


> The PD individual turns on the charm and continues to dupe the therapist. How does one get around this obstacle Uptown?


Happy, it really does not help to "get around" this obstacle. If the partner with strong PD traits does not want to work on those issues -- and it is very unlikely he/she will want to -- it doesn't help any to tell his/her therapist the truth (or to provide recorded evidence of the fights). In my case, for example, I spent a small fortune sending my BPDer exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) in weekly visits for 15 years. I also met with those therapists frequently to tell my side of the story. 

It didn't matter one bit. All that therapy didn't make a dent because my exW just continued to play mind games with the therapists. She did not have the self awareness or the ego strength necessary to work hard in therapy on addressing her BPD issues. Hence, all of the VAR recordings in the world would not have made any difference in the outcome.


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## WasHappyatOneTime (Nov 26, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> I find this to information to be especially troubling. I agree with it completely, but it's beyond exasperating for the spouse and other family members to watch, week after week, as PD individual turns on the charm and continues to dupe the therapist.
> 
> How does one get around this obstacle Uptown? Is a VAR or hidden video camera useful for documentation, or are the docs loath to go that route? Perhaps you already answered this in your link above. I will go check it out now.


In my case, it took a 3 year separation.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Uptown said:


> Happy, it really does not help to "get around" this obstacle. If the partner with strong PD traits does not want to work on those issues -- and it is very unlikely he/she will want to -- it doesn't help any to tell his/her therapist the truth (or to provide recorded evidence of the fights). In my case, for example, I spent a small fortune sending my BPDer exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) in weekly visits for 15 years. I also met with those therapists frequently to tell my side of the story.
> 
> It didn't matter one bit. All that therapy didn't make a dent because my exW just continued to play mind games with the therapists. She did not have the self awareness or the ego strength necessary to work hard in therapy on addressing her BPD issues. Hence, all of the VAR recordings in the world would not have made any difference in the outcome.


Ahhh... I see. And you're right, it just goes round and round in a circle. I thought it might help with the divorce, but I read your other post and now realize that a diagnosis really doesn't get you anywhere (except cut off from your insurance, as well as an even angrier BPDer spouse.)

What a difficult position to be in. delupt, so sorry for what you're going through.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

I have followed the 'Always-Be-Recording' precautions for the few years, basically since we've been looking to fix/shake-up this relationship (as any boat-rocking inevitably triggered her). I have hours of stuff including some of her worst verbal tantrums. 

I haven't listened back to any of it to be honest. I have no intention of presenting it to my lawyer or in any way use it as evidence in the divorce. I see it mostly as precautionary. If she goes nuclear and calls the police then I have something. Also, I anticipate some form of physical violence in the coming months and want to get it recorded (she's been physical 4 or 5 times over the years - no weapons/objects).

But I see it as maybe something for the future, for some dark moments that may come where I may have some doubts, proof that I was not insane!

I keep it on all evening, and sometimes keep it running thru the night if she's had a problematic evening. It partly disgusts me as it is so underhand and sneaky, but dignity and integrity are not my main goals here; I'll recover those two once we're legally separated.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

[4 WEEKS ON - QUICK UPDATE]
So my eldest teen is seeing a counsellor, he seems to want to do it so it shall continue. No idea what they discuss, I've opened up the channel if he wants, but it is his business.

My STBXW is still throwing regular tantrums, mixed in with some sweetness - meh, I find it distasteful these days. Mostly it is just power/control issues, creating scenarios to prove her dominance and getting everyone to do what she wants when she wants it and in the manner she wants (e.g. ran the bath for younger son at 8pm then told him to get in & bathe, he had friend over gaming and declined as he was busy but would go tomorrow, it kicked off ... and many similar).

We formally told the kids about the upcoming divorce. No surprises, even happy there is a decision (finally). Feeling very positive. Wife threw a tantrum over the meal (some discussion on bio/healthfood wasn't to her pleasing), but 10 mins later she was politely, kindly, considerately & respectfully asking for us to watch a movie together - sure, why not?

So, the end of the beginning ...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Delupt, thanks for the update on your family's situation. I'm glad to hear that your eldest son is seeing a counselor. It likely is doing him some good or he wouldn't be willing to stay with it. I will be happy for you when you're eventually able to get the divorce behind you. I know that I was greatly relieved when it happened to me. It felt like coming out of a dark tunnel into the daylight.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

After a few moderately quiet weeks where we told the kids and have started preparing house for sale, my STBXW tried to go on the offensive again to show everyone who is boss! She still doesn't seem to get that divorce is happening, her disrespect for me is such that despite holding the papers in her hands for 3 months, she thinks I'm just being a dominant bully threatening her into submission (projection anyone?) rather than wanting to end a bad relationship in a calm rational manner.

Last night was the opening salvo in her 'you need to sleep in the study' gambit. I laughed it off suggesting she can sleep where she wants (as I will). She threw an episode of course, it had been brewing for hours as she partially kicked off early evening triggering me into going out for some fitness. She got loud accusing me of non-existant affairs and being a pervert, addict, jerk, and stronger sh!t (our kids even had mates sleeping over who got it all). She ran up stairs to lock herself into the room to force me to get on the sofa. This is an absolute no-no to me, my boys will not see me 'banished' to the sofa for crimes that don't exist.

Refusing to give me the key, I unfortunately engaged in her squabble. I was not going to let her lock me out so grabbed her hand and removed the key (peeling back her fingers) as she squeeled and shouted. She tried to twist my testicles and aggressively twist my nose to stop me. Nothing more than a few minor scratches to me (nothing on her). Interesting that she did not get as violent as in the past - no punches or taking off lumps of skin with scratching. She pulled herself back. Presumably knowing I would now retaliate with equal force to protect myself (as I did not in the past).

I kinda regret engaging in her fight, but even though we 'grappled' on the bed as I arrested the key from her, I maintained my frame as much as possible and did not lose it as she was frothing at the mouth (oh, and it was certainly kind of sexy, she like most of my previous girlfriends, used to have a big fondness for mildly aggressive violent sex, which I used to reluctantly engage in to meet her/their needs).

The urgent task is to sell the house and get apart (before the police get involved). I don't care if we aren't formally divorced, she can delay that all she wants, I need to sell up and get somewhere fresh and safe for the boys.


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

Keep that recorder on at all times and make sure you hide/move off site any documentation, computers, past recordings, etc. that you do not want to disappear or be destroyed. I would also remind your children that they immediately need to call the police if things get dangerous. Good luck!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

delupt said:


> I was not going to let her lock me out so grabbed her hand and removed the key (peeling back her fingers) as she squeeled ....Interesting that she did not get as violent as in the past - no punches or taking off lumps of skin with scratching.


Delupt, you are skating on thin ice anytime you grab her or push her off of you. If she's on blood thinner or certain other medications, even slight pressure will leave bruises that can be paraded in front of the police. I pushed my exW away from a door, for example, when she was in the process of destroying it to get to me. She called the police and, by the time they showed up, she already had bruises showing on her chest where I had shoved her. 

The result was that I was arrested and thrown into jail for 3 days because the event occurred early Saturday morning and I had to wait for a judge to hear my case (in arraignment) late on Monday afternoon. I don't know what the police policy is there in your country but here in this part of the USA the policy is that -- when the police have doubt as to which partner is at fault -- they routinely arrest the partner who DIDN'T make the phone call -- and then let the judge figure out who was really to blame. 

The police therefore advised me that, next time, I should be the one to be first to call the police whenever my exW seems inclined to do it. Sadly, as long as you remain in the same home with an angry unstable woman, you are at considerable risk of being arrested on a bogus charge and thrown into jail -- even when, as in my case, the wife was chasing me from room to room while throwing an angry temper tantrum.


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