# Awesome podcast on feminism



## Scannerguard

Phyllis Schlafly Still Championing The Anti-Feminist Fight : NPR

You can read the transcript. . .it will be quicker. . .but Phyllis Schlafly at 80 some years old is very articulate and well spoken.

I rather recommend listening to her to speak for the 17 minutes on how feminism has let women down.

I have to say, prior to hearing this podcast, I probably sat a little left of center. . .having been through a tulmultuous marriage and hearing this podcast, I would say she shifted me a little right of center on this subject.

That is very rare to have someone shift my political views on the merits of an argument alone.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> Phyllis Schlafly Still Championing The Anti-Feminist Fight : NPR
> 
> You can read the transcript. . .it will be quicker. . .but Phyllis Schlafly at 80 some years old is very articulate and well spoken.
> 
> I rather recommend listening to her to speak for the 17 minutes on how feminism has let women down.
> 
> I have to say, prior to hearing this podcast, I probably sat a little left of center. . .having been through a tulmultuous marriage and hearing this podcast, I would say she shifted me a little right of center on this subject.
> 
> That is very rare to have someone shift my political views on the merits of an argument alone.


You posted this in this forum to garner a response from us working women. Fine.
Phyllis is as laughable as Ann Coulter is. Both say things for shock value and to keep themselves relevant. They are drains on society and their views are held by the marginal few. They incite just to incite. That is all.


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## chillymorn

interesting.

I personally think a larger % of woman feel like she dose. It just takes them awhile to realize it.

I know a lot of women who went to colledge and then once they had babies they wanted to stay home and just be a mom. (their words not mine)

just think of the money they would have saved if they didn't go to school.Not that I am opposed to women going for a degree.


and of course there the how would I suport myself if something happens angle. which is good thinking. If your marriage fails, you need a fall back plan. 

But if you didn't have a fall back plan people would try harder to make there marriages work.


I guess in the end its important to find a mate with similar ideas about such topics.

but thats easier said than done and ideas/opinions can change with time.


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## greenpearl

I think it is very complicated. 

If women have no skills, and just live their life dependent on their husbands, they are really under their men's control.

If the man is nice, then this woman is lucky. If they man is not nice, then this woman is stuck with her bad marriage and abusive man. 

We do have to admit that a lot of men are not that great, they take their wives for granted and just do things they like, they think little about their wives. 

I am not a big fan of feminism, but I want women to have their husbands' respect and love.

People either go too far on this end or on that end, it is difficult for them to find the balance. 

Balance is what we need, but balance is what we lack!


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## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> You posted this in this forum to garner a response from us working women. Fine.
> Phyllis is as laughable as Ann Coulter is. Both say things for shock value and to keep themselves relevant. They are drains on society and their views are held by the marginal few. They incite just to incite. That is all.


so intelligent women who dont share your personal views are drains on our society?


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## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> If women have no skills, and just live their life dependent on their husbands, they are really under their men's control.
> 
> If the man is nice, then this woman is lucky.


This is *ME*. I have no College education. Just being a Mom. But the man is Golden, so it works.  If something happens to him, I think I will have to scramble to go to school, get some skills in a hurry. Would be pretty fine to become a Relationship Coach or Therapist, I love this type of stuff.


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## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is *ME*. I have no College education. Just being a Mom. But the man is Golden, so it works.  If something happens to him, I think I will have to scramble to go to school, get some skills in a hurry. Would be pretty fine to become a Relationship Coach or Therapist, I love this type of stuff.


  

I know YOU ARE ONE LUCKY WOMAN! But I think you have earned it! 

Aren't you happy that your man is not one of those pure alphas!


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## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> I know YOU ARE ONE LUCKY WOMAN! But I think you have earned it!
> 
> Aren't you happy that your man is not one of those pure alphas!


 Green Pearl, you are funny. I accually never wanted a college education, I sucked at Math so bad, I never would have gotten through anyway. English & Psychology is where I shined. I never had the desire for College, glad that didn't creep up on me in Mid life. 

But so true what you say here


> If the man is not nice, then this woman is stuck with her bad marriage and abusive man.


 ... I had an old friend, she had one of these miserable controlling husbands. Amazingly SO nice to everyone else, but NASTY unbearable behind closed doors. 

She was a simple SAHM, but she wanted OUT. She told me about her "plan" to get out from under him so she would not be destitude. She put herself through College, got a Nursing Degree, got herself that job & left his A**. Had he not been that kind of man, I doubt she would be a Nurse today. She found happiness with another.


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## Syrum

I do not think women are any closer to being truly valued then they were 50 years ago, things have just shifted a little and women do have more opportunities but framed from a patriarchal viewpoint, so that women and femininity are still not valued as they should be. 
Womens roles are not valued and untill what women largely have to offer is as valued as much as what men have to offer, then women will never be close to equal opportunity.


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## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> Green Pearl, you are funny. I accually never wanted a college education, I sucked at Math so bad, I never would have gotten through anyway. English & Psychology is where I shined. I never had the desire for College, glad that didn't creep up on me in Mid life.
> 
> But so true what you say here ... I had an old friend, she had one of these miserable controlling husbands. Amazingly SO nice to everyone else, but NASTY unbearable behind closed doors.
> 
> She was a simple SAHM, but she wanted OUT. She told me about her "plan" to get out from under him so she would not be destitude. She put herself through College, got a Nursing Degree, got herself that job & left his A**. Had he not been that kind of man, I doubt she would be a Nurse today. She found happiness with another.


SA,

My situation was different. I used to be sick a lot when I was a child, I couldn't do much field work, I never wanted to become a peasant woman, I never wanted to marry a peasant man. I had to get a degree so I could work in a city. Men who were not peasants wouldn't want to marry me if I was a peasant woman. At that time, China's policy made people from the countryside almost impossible to go to the cities unless they went to a college. Now the situation is very different. 

There are many ways for people to achieve a skill, men can become carpenters, chefs, painters, vendors, etc etc, they don't need high education. Women can become hairdressers, beauticians, etc etc, they can also make a living. I am not against people who pursue high education, if they have the ability, ambition, and money, they can become scientists, doctors, lawyers, good for them. 

But now I view all of us just having a different life, people with high education may not be happier than people who without much education. People who make a lot of money may not live an organized care free life. I think a lot of people don't pay much attention to one important education all of us should have, that's education about life. My parents never taught me how to live, I can't blame them because they don't know either. I had to stumble and make mistakes a lot during my early age.


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## AFEH

Big business is cashing in with “Gender Neutrality”.

Young women no longer get cheaper car insurance than young men, it’s the “Gender Neutral Law” so young women have lost out even though they are proven to be very much less of a risk than young men.

By Sept 2012 all pensions must be Gender Neutral in spite of the age old fact that women outlive men. So men’s annuities will decrease in spite of the fact that they don’t live as long as women.

Who wins? The insurance companies, big business.

Bob


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## sisters359

Why should *I* have to live as a less-than-equal because some women choose a different path in life?

Yesterday, I saw the best definition of culture that I have ever seen: the entirety of social processes that makes that which is artificial (ie, socially constructed) seem natural.

I will say it again--anything that is not shared 100% by all of a group cannot be "natural" or biological.

I wanted to stay home with kids--for a relatively short time. Then I wanted desperately to go back to work. I do not live my life for my kids, even though there is nothing more important to me than my children. I wil--and do--make sacrifices for my kids that their dad wouldn't make. But, I also feel separate from my kids--I have a life of my own, I do not need to be with them every moment, etc. I know there was a time when each was an infant that I felt differently. But as they grew older, that type of deep attachment faded--and I also realized they are separate from me, and they deserve to have their own lives, too.

I'm not making any case that my p.o.v. is correct--just that it is MY experience. For one group to insist that their way is "natural" flies in the face of my experience, and the experience of many women. 

Feminism is, first and foremost, about choice, about getting people to understand that there is nothing "natural" about the world around us--we have socially constructed a world that tries to force people into certain roles regardless of who they are and what they want. Our social characteristics are not sex-specific--they, like almost everything about us--lie on a spectrum. A lot of men, too, would prefer a different life than the one they have been socialized to embrace. More are opting out of that life as the times change.


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## notaname

Patriarchy let women down....BIG TIME. 

The feminist movement hasn't let women down. It isn't done yet, that's all. The movement has many faces, just as we are all individuals. Feminists I know, including myself, are very much into honoring womanhood, motherhood and all that is feminine. We also love and honor manhood, fatherhood and masculinity. What we are not into is pretending differences exist that don't...or exaggerating differences. Feminists know that women are different which is why they work so hard for women's reproductive health rights and to end violence against women.

Just focusing on the idea of women needing to stay in there own "sphere" and stay out of the public forum or workplace shows how absurd anti-feminism is. 
Men die. Men sometimes abuse. Men fail at business or get fired/laid off/downsized. Men get injured and debilitated. Men can't be an accurate voice for women. Some women will never marry (nor desire to). Some women will never bear children (nor desire to). Some women will ache to gain a higher education, discover, control their own body.

Phyllis is all about villifying and generalizing feminists and families who use daycare or nannies. It was kind of a hoot, actually. Oooh, the evil feminists are gonna ruin the world! The world is worse off for feminism; ignore the fact that she can vote, wear pants, be a lawyer, own a home, etc. thanks to the feminist movement!
She uses scare tactics to convince women and men that women are better off subordinate to men. Why? because women have a womb. She wants to force gender roles that simply don't work for MANY, MANY people. She wants to convince us that 1950s gender roles are natural...as if they have been the roles of all men and women in all the world and all generations. 

She made a lot of strawmen to knock down. Feminists do not hate men, in fact some feminists are men. Feminists do not hate SAHMs, in fact some feminists are SAHMs. Feminists do not wish every woman to be forced in the workforce. Feminists don't wish for women to not be successful (or however she worded that, I'd never heard that one before). Feminist believe that women should be free to make their own choices. 
If you go to the website for the National Organization for Women they have an entire page dedicated to mothers and care providers.

I love how she mentions the draft as a reason not to support equal rights. How do the men feel that this anti-feminist sees the lives of men as less valuable than the lives of women? 
That is one big problem I see with patriarchy and anti-feminism is that it places womenhood/motherhood on a pedestal to be "honored" so that the subordination can continue on without protest.

Phyllis also believes that men are only relevant to the family if they are the breadwinner. She makes this comment towards the end of the interview. I certainly believe that a man, a father, is relevant FAR beyond his earning power. It saddens me to hear that people think in this way. If a woman stays with a man *only* because he brings money into the house that is very sad and screwed up. How is that not as degrading as prostitution? That is the point of feminism! To raise women up so that they are not in a bad situation where they must be with a man soley for the money he brings to the house. 
Does a man really want his wife to only be with him for his paycheck? 

If these anti-feminists really cared about motherhood and women then they would be working hard to make sure that women are not economically devastated by giving birth and "staying in the kitchen" raising children. If they cared so much about the differences that make a woman a woman they would be putting more funding into the area of women's reproductive health....but I don't see them doing that.

The fact is, most Americans say they believe women and men should have equal rights, equal pay, etc. It's time to make it happen.


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## Scannerguard

I didn't post it here assuming women are working here. . .I knew SA (I am not sure about Greenpearl) are SAHM's and I know there are working women here (which really has nothing to do with being feminist).

Well, I give my input more personally on this.

I have a young patient I have cared for since about age 8 with scoliosis. Very close to the family. Knowing I have been in healthcare since 1989 (phlebotomist, CT tech, chiropractor), they value my advice and opinion as neither of them are college educated and she is the first in the family.

She had aspirations of being a pediatric neurosurgeon. Grades not withstanding, she also had aspirations of being a mother and having a family.

I discouraged her from this pursuit which would demand so much of her and take away from her ability to be a mother and redirected her to other careers that would allow her to have a family - really encouraged nursing (nurse practicioner, midwife, vanilla nurse). In the end, this was all moot as she decided healthcare wasn't for her after all.

I just wanted to get my "bit" in before any raging feminist got to her and told her, "Oh yeah, you can have it all. . .it's really easy and you can handle it and any man who isn't patient with you and your aspirations, well, he's not worth having."

But then again, I'm politically incorrect and known for it.

I think it's silly that feminism puts these pressures on young women. My gawd, 1 in 3 women are going to live to 100 freakin' years old. They bear children optimally, what, for 15 years? (say age 20-35) You are telling me you can't do law school, medical school, accounting school after the kids are raised? Or are at least 8 or 10 years old? Gotta be doing it when the other "boys" in high school are doing it? Why? Why is that wise?

Hell, a vanilla college education is about $125,000 now. . .for what? So little Brittany can stay home and nurse?

So tell me, I don't have any girls. . .I have 3 boys. . .but if I did have a girl (always wanted one), explain to me as a parent why I should have to morally shell out that kind of money? Hell, I know I am sounding like my old school grandmother who paid for her son to go to college but mom didn't get to go (mom would have said she didn't have the grades either) but I don't know, I'd like to hear from the raging feminists (since apparently Phyllis has gotten you to rage again) why my old school grandmother was wrong in the managing of her finances through a Great Depression and so forth.

In fact, if you could be the one who could tell her she was wrong, I'd appreciate it


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## Mom6547

"What that amendment would do is to make all laws sex-neutral. Well, the typical, classic law that is not sex-neutral is the draft registration law."

I confess to stopping reading right here. That ALL laws are not going to be rewritten on the spot to be gender neutral, let's make no forward progress at all? Um yah not so much....

Oh but wait then she is complaining 

"And the first thing is they'll have to sign up for the draft like their brothers. Now, that was an unsaleable proposition. "

Why SHOULDN'T they? (My very negative opinion on the draft notwithstanding...) Why should there be a privilege that we poor, weak, pathetic women can't also serve our country? 

Oh wait, we can.


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## Mom6547

chillymorn said:


> interesting.
> 
> I personally think a larger % of woman feel like she dose. It just takes them awhile to realize it.
> 
> I know a lot of women who went to colledge and then once they had babies they wanted to stay home and just be a mom. (their words not mine)


The point is to have a choice by law. Or really not to be prevented from doing what is best for themselves or their family. The point is not that all women do or should want to be high powered execs or whatever. But that they not be pigeonholed by someone else's vision of what a woman is SUPPOSED to do.


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## Mom6547

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is *ME*. I have no College education. Just being a Mom. But the man is Golden, so it works.


See nice man + sahm = works is not an equation that will work for everyone as it seems gp is indicating. Self actualization for SOME people is going to involve other things that being a mother and wife. There is nothing wrong with pursuing motherhood and wifehood as a satisfying way to live. But that is not the path for everyone.


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## Scannerguard

To further expound on my political incorrectness. . .I totally 100% agree with Phyllis. . .welfare to women with children made the father irrelevant.

Why not just drop your seed and run? Father Taxpayor and Unwed Mother will raise the kids.

Like it or not, as a Moderate, I have to concede the Right has a point on this (Phyllis being the Right in this case).


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## Mom6547

Syrum said:


> I do not think women are any closer to being truly valued then they were 50 years ago


I think one of the unforseen affects of the feminist movement was that there is a camp of women who wish to be *valued* without being *valuable*. There is nothing valuable about just being female. I find, in the workplace, being valued is directly correlated to how valuable you are. And that is exactly as it should be.

I was lucky during my stint as home schooling stay at home mom stint in that my husband perceived GREAT value to what I was bringing to the home and family, despite the need to live cheap. The value of the mother or father who raises the kids starts one home at a time.


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## Scannerguard

As far as the draft. . .women shouldn't be in combat roles, that's all. If we need to draft them to support the combatants, that's fine. I could even give a pass for female pilots.

I remember watching an episode of cops one time. . .it wasn't even about this subject. The female cop was apprehending a suspect, who had broken parole. She had him put his hands on the hood and the video camera proceeded to film the criminal then beat the female cop to a bloody pulp as he turned on her. 

She then couldn't go back to work because she was "psychologically traumatized" and was at home on disability.

It was such a mismatch, I couldn't help but think that me, an "untrained male" with some old martial arts training from years ago could have handled myself better than all 110 pounds of her.

Why can't we just use common sense? Combat roles should be reserved for warriors, unless you are Zena the Warrior Princess. 

In that case. . .well, I'll make an exception for Zena.


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## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Big business is cashing in with “Gender Neutrality”.
> 
> Young women no longer get cheaper car insurance than young men, it’s the “Gender Neutral Law” so young women have lost out even though they are proven to be very much less of a risk than young men.


This is simply not true here. Actuaries determine risk and risk determines rates.


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> As far as the draft. . .women shouldn't be in combat roles, that's all.


Tee hee. You say "that's all" and it is! Sweet! 

Tell me. Why not?



> I remember watching an episode of cops one time. . .it wasn't even about this subject. The female cop was apprehending a suspect, who had broken parole. She had him put his hands on the hood and the video camera proceeded to film the criminal then beat the female cop to a bloody pulp as he turned on her.
> 
> She then couldn't go back to work because she was "psychologically traumatized" and was at home on disability.


So ... one ineffective person on a near fictional television program is the basis of your decision making?


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## Scannerguard

Mom,

It was a video recording that the cops have in their car to protect suspects by documenting the arrest process. It wasn't "fictional."

Now, could have the criminal beat a male cop to a bloody pulp? For sure! But he overpowered her in less than a second. It was over. . .she was no match for him and he looked rather "average" to me in build.

I am not sure what women are trying to prove in these types of scenarios.


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## greenpearl

Scanner,

I am a working woman. 

Nowadays most men won't marry women who don't work. 

Women who don't work have few places to meet men. 

My husband and I met at a school where we both worked.


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## greenpearl

On a certain level, I thank the feminists for the freedom they have brought for us. Now I am a working woman, I think I enjoy more freedom and sense of security than the time I couldn't have a stable job and always needed men's favor. 

But in a home, women should know their position is to help their men, not to boss their men. Even my junior high school student knows that it is not a good idea for a woman to marry a man who makes less money than her. It will hurt the man's ego, the man might have low self-esteem, and the woman tends to be disrespectful towards him.


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Mom,
> 
> It was a video recording that the cops have in their car to protect suspects by documenting the arrest process. It wasn't "fictional."


I am familiar with the show. We can disagree to the degree of how real that was if we wish.




> Now, could have the criminal beat a male cop to a bloody pulp? For sure! But he overpowered her in less than a second. It was over. . .she was no match for him and he looked rather "average" to me in build.
> 
> I am not sure what women are trying to prove in these types of scenarios.


Prove? Not a god damn thing.


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## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> But in a home, women should know their position is to help their men, not to boss their men.


I think a family should understand itself.


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## greenpearl

Mom6547 said:


> I think a family should understand itself.


In a home, a man should know that his position is to love and protect his woman, not to abuse her or hurt her!


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## Therealbrighteyes

There are so many things wrong with what you are saying. In the Great Depression, those that could afford to send a child to college sent the son as those were the ones with the greatest earning power, back then. Not wanting to send a girl these days to college because she is just going to "stay home and nurse" is just ridiculous. So going to college is a waste for a woman if she "only" wants to be a Mom? Really? 
As for what higher education can do for SAHM's, as you know, I was attending a very prestigious university and got pregnant at 20. Son born at 21. I managed to get my AS. I dropped out after that. I stayed at home for years and took care of our son's needs. I have worked very hard with our oldest to help him overcome his dyslexia and speech problems. I worked with him for years and pushed him with books far beyond what he was required to read at his level. I helped him with physics homework that he had in the 10th grade that I wouldn't have known about or been able to help him with had I not attended college. Advanced calculus as well. Advanced writing and history. None of which I knew much about until college. 
He is graduating in a little over a month (top 5%) and has been given a 2 year scholarship to a baby Ivy, Rice University specifically "The Harvard of the South". College of Engineering.
I guess education was wasted on me, right? 
Also, if we are going to value human beings based on their earning power then I guess it would have been perfectly acceptable for my FIL and MIL to have denied my husband a college education. He was afterall a struggling dyslexic. His older brother by 18 months was the sure bet. No learning problems whatsoever. Given that money was tight for them back then, it should have been okay for them to tell my husband "so sorry, we are betting on a winner", right? 
I am saddened to think there are people on this forum who view their children as monetary resources.


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## michzz

At the very least, before wifey goes barefoot and pregnant, shouldn't college round out her experience of the world so she can relate to those complicated things we men face daily?

How can she possibly provide the correct level of servitude without that appreciation of what she cannot do or be? 

Don't we want her to know where Libya is or know a foreign language, or about unemployment rates, or what a tax revenue deficit is in addition to where to find the best price on paper diapers?

Or do we just want her to not worry her pretty little head about such things and focus on wiping snot from young noses?

Priorities people, priorities.


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## sisters359

Scannerguard, I think you are fighting a losing battle. There are so many reasons both girls and boys need an eduction today that it is a bit scary to think that the old attitude (that it is a waste of money to educate girls) is out there. Please remember that's the position of groups like the Taliban even today. Denying people an education is a way to guarantee that they do not have choices. Any young woman who decides to forego an education is putting her future--and the future of her children--at risk. Stuff happens. What women learned in the 1950s through 1970s was how incredibly vulnerable they were without an education--to losing a spouse through death or divorce, or to abuse, because economically they felt they could not leave. They are vulnerable in the modern economy too, of course, where job loss is so frequently a threat. Two earners--or at least two potential earners--is a much safer bet than 1. 

I read a lot of women on here saying, "I can't afford to leave." And often, the men they want to leave are not good men. It is very sad that any person, male or female, cannot protect THEMSELVES in a situation like this. I have never felt financially dependent on anyone, since becoming an adult. I have never had to submit to injustices of any kind for fear of being unable to take care of myself or my children. I cannot really imagine how that must feel, but I suspect is pretty devastating (on top of the negative experience one must endure). 

As for women in the military, most young people I know--male and female--agree that both should be subject to the draft (if it ever returns) and both should have the same opportunities in the military. I suspect that change will come relatively soon.


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## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> At the very least, before wifey goes barefoot and pregnant, shouldn't college round out her experience of the world so she can relate to those complicated things we men face daily?
> 
> How can she possibly provide the correct level of servitude without that appreciation of what she cannot do or be?
> 
> Don't we want her to know where Libya is or know a foreign language, or about unemployment rates, or what a tax revenue deficit is in addition to where to find the best price on paper diapers?
> 
> Or do we just want her to not worry her pretty little head about such things and focus on wiping snot from young noses?
> 
> Priorities people, priorities.


Oh, Michzz, you are talking to us simple folk. Those unworthy of an education because we want to raise children. Oh sage one, please instruct me about world politics because I am not worthy of an education because I was a SAHM. What is this place you talk about, Libya? 
There you go talking about tax revenue deficit, my pretty little head cannot wrap my head around it. Give me your credit card. That's all I know. I know nothing about going long or going short on stocks. I know nothing about margins or derivatives. Nothing, I tell you. Nothing.


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## michzz

Brennan said:


> Oh, Michzz, you are talking to us simple folk. Those unworthy of an education because we want to raise children. Oh sage one, please instruct me about world politics because I am not worthy of an education because I was a SAHM. What is this place you talk about, Libya?
> There you go talking about tax revenue deficit, my pretty little head cannot wrap my head around it. Give me your credit card. That's all I know. I know nothing about going long or going short on stocks. I know nothing about margins or derivatives. Nothing, I tell you. Nothing.


Surely you know that women have failed ever since they embraced using tape to close paper diapers over diaper pins and cloth?

It was a plot to free up time from mothering to fill up your heads with useless information.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> What is this place you talk about, Libya?


Aren't there two? Libya Majora and Libya Minora?


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## michzz

Deejo said:


> Aren't there two? Libya Majora and Libya Minora?


Anatomy of a well played posting!


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## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> Surely you know that women have failed ever since they embraced using tape to close paper diapers over diaper pins and cloth?
> 
> It was a plot to free up time from mothering to fill up your heads with useless information.


Ahh, yes. I forgot about that. My pretty little simple minded head and all. 
Wait? Isn't that the reason I should have been denied a college education in the first place? My pretty little head. Right? I mean a woman who wants to be a mother should be tossed aside in favor of her more "successful" brother. Right? Come ON Michzz, us simpletons are not worthy of an education. You are talking as we should be. Confusion? :scratchhead:


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Aren't there two? Libya Majora and Libya Minora?


One gets you to "OOO", the other gets you to "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO".

That is all.


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## michzz

Brennan said:


> Ahh, yes. I forgot about that. My pretty little simple minded head and all.
> Wait? Isn't that the reason I should have been denied a college education in the first place? My pretty little head. Right? I mean a woman who wants to be a mother should be tossed aside in favor of her more "successful" brother. Right? Come ON Michzz, us simpletons are not worthy of an education. You are talking as we should be. Confusion? :scratchhead:


Exactly! 

As an aside, when my dad was studying to become an MD my mom worked and reared children. 

When he was awarded his Doctorate they actually had this ceremony for wives where they were given this faux degree for "putting hubby through". Printed to look like a degree.

And it was not considered a joke as it might today.


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## michzz

Brennan said:


> One gets you to "OOO", the other gets you to "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO".
> 
> That is all.


I think I should go back and study geography again.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Yes but you do realize how pretty you are right? I mean...I've seen you and I can say quite definitively that your pretty little head would have certainly been wasted in college. Wasted and most likely having some serious guy trouble! :smthumbup:


Awe, thanks Trenton. Funny how that works. Maybe I should walk up to my Mensa member husband and tell him that my education was wasted because I was "only" a SAHM. Said husband will be the FIRST person to tell you that me, college dropout is the reason his son got a scholarship and the reason his son is at this level. Funny how that works. Wasted education no doubt.


----------



## Scannerguard

Hey, okay, let's go tell my old school Italian grandmother that the Liberal Intelligensia of TAM, with their fancy/schmancey college educations, said she was wrong. They, after all, know how to run an economy, save, pay for things in a cash-n-carry manner and so forth.

I mean, our state of affairs today for women and men are pretty good, right? Females are the breadwinners now as evidenced by a lot of statistics and that's a good thing for children, right?

You won't mind if I just leave the room though as you all are telling her, will you?


----------



## chillymorn

and again another thread taken over by opinionated women who only think their opinion matters.


----------



## Scannerguard

Seriously though, I actually think market forces are going to force a change on this before anything else does.

If you have a boy and a girl and college is headed to costing nearly $300,000 for both of them. . .some choices are going to have to be made.

Uncomfortable choices perhaps based on gender and gender differences.

The ol' feminist mantra of "the sexes are equal" are about to be challenged by market forces, not by any political foe like Scannerguard, Phyllis Schafly, or the Taliban.

For those of you rolling in the money to send all of your kids to Ivy League, there is no need. Please disregard this discussion.

Someone chastized me for regarding kids as monetary resources (I think she meant monetary liabilities). Well, in the strictest sense of the word, that's what they are. Yeah, sure. . .maybe, MAYBE they'll take care of you in your old age. . .but don't count on it. Raising kids is an exercise in giving, not getting.

I guess men think about this more than women, but it costs I beleive $225,000 now to raise a boy or a girl. Add college into that and it skyrockets. Kids put you in the poor house.

Yeah, sure, in la-la land. . .everyone should get an education. . .all of the women coudl be going to college to earn their BA or their BS and as an option, their MRS. on Mommy and Daddy's dime. Oh, add a $20,000-30,000 wedding in there too.

I don't think it's going to pan out that way as per market forces.

I think what market forces are going to do, whether the forum cries about it or not, is force hard choices on families.

Blaming it on Scannerguard or the Taliban is like Wisconsin blaming the Unions for their fiscal crisis. It's a misdirection and an avoidance of what Mrs. (she apparently likes to be referred to as Mrs.) Schafly was saying:

There are differences in the genders and they are valid. They are differently anatomically (they have a penis, in case you didn't know), hormonally (lots of testosterone), socially (they hunt, not gather), economically (this discussion - their calling is to provide) and politically (they lean conservative, they are hawks, women lean liberal, they are doves).


----------



## greenpearl

Guys, 

Don't be offended! 

We are just expressing our opinions. 

It is not a big deal. 

Nobody is hurt or anything. 

We have to agree that we can't go back now, we can only go forward.

Men and women's roles have changed, it is a fact. We can't do anything about what have happened.

The problem is what we can do in the future. 

Is feminism failed? I don't know. 

Is Communism failed? I think the answer is yes! Communism is failed because those people are too ideal, they didn't take human's nature into consideration. 

How about feminism? This topic is too controversial! I'd rather not say anything!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

chillymorn said:


> and again another thread taken over by opinionated women who only think their opinion matters.


He posted it in the Ladies forum KNOWING he would get a reaction. My opinion is my opinion dude. I never said it mattered more.


----------



## greenpearl

Education is important for both men and women.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> Seriously though, I actually think market forces are going to force a change on this before anything else does.
> 
> If you have a boy and a girl and college is headed to costing nearly $300,000 for both of them. . .some choices are going to have to be made.
> 
> Uncomfortable choices perhaps based on gender and gender differences.
> 
> The ol' feminist mantra of "the sexes are equal" are about to be challenged by market forces, not by any political foe like Scannerguard, Phyllis Schafly, or the Taliban.
> 
> For those of you rolling in the money to send all of your kids to Ivy League, there is no need. Please disregard this discussion.
> 
> Someone chastized me for regarding kids as monetary resources (I think she meant monetary liabilities). Well, in the strictest sense of the word, that's what they are. Yeah, sure. . .maybe, MAYBE they'll take care of you in your old age. . .but don't count on it. Raising kids is an exercise in giving, not getting.
> 
> I guess men think about this more than women, but it costs I beleive $225,000 now to raise a boy or a girl. Add college into that and it skyrockets. Kids put you in the poor house.
> 
> Yeah, sure, in la-la land. . .everyone should get an education. . .all of the women coudl be going to college to earn their BA or their BS and as an option, their MRS. on Mommy and Daddy's dime. Oh, add a $20,000-30,000 wedding in there too.
> 
> I don't think it's going to pan out that way as per market forces.
> 
> I think what market forces are going to do, whether the forum cries about it or not, is force hard choices on families.
> 
> Blaming it on Scannerguard or the Taliban is like Wisconsin blaming the Unions for their fiscal crisis. It's a misdirection and an avoidance of what Mrs. (she apparently likes to be referred to as Mrs.) Schafly was saying:
> 
> There are differences in the genders and they are valid. They are differently anatomically (they have a penis, in case you didn't know), hormonally (lots of testosterone), socially (they hunt, not gather), economically (this discussion - their calling is to provide) and politically (they lean conservative, they are hawks, women lean liberal, they are doves).


You are correct about "market forces". More women are going to college then men. Stats from Newsweek magazine circa 2010. I guess there are parents out there who didn't think having a penis meant college is guaranteed. Perhaps they live in "la la land".


----------



## greenpearl

Brennan, 
Trenton, 

Please don't think this is a good thing. 

You may not agree, but I think women respect men who have higher education than them. In a marriage, if the woman has a higher education, we can guess what kind of struggling they have. If there are more women graduate from university than men, it means that it is more difficult for some women to find men they respect.


----------



## chillymorn

greenpearl said:


> Education is important for both men and women.


I recently read an artical that said most people would be better off investing the money saved on an education.with compounding interest 100,000 would be worth a pile of money in 30 yrs.Lots of grads can't find a job and end up working a job that dosen't even require an education. 


on a side note women seem to want special rights not equal rights.

they want to earn the same (which is only fair if they do the same job and they do it just as good)

but I don't usually see to many women road workers down in the ditch they usually are holding the stop and slow signs.

they don't want to be drafted.but like the protection they get from an armed military.even in the service they get the easy job because physicaly they are weeker

how about the olympics we should have it gender neutral.I would guess not many women would win a gold medal

If you were jumping from a burning building would you want a women to catch you or a man.


if your being beat up by you chovenistic husband do you want a woman cop or a man cop comming to the house. 

they still like doors to be opened for them but rearly open them for men.

maybe I'm jaded but it seem that if they ***** enough they get what they want just because they are the vocal minority.



With all that being said.........YOU SEE THAT IT's A KITCHEN NOW GET BACK IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## greenpearl

chillymorn said:


> I recently read an artical that said most people would be better off investing the money saved on an education.with compounding interest 100,000 would be worth a pile of money in 30 yrs.Lots of grads can't find a job and end up working a job that dosen't even require an education.
> 
> 
> on a side note women seem to want special rights not equal rights.
> 
> they want to earn the same (which is only fair if they do the same job and they do it just as good)
> 
> but I don't usually see to many women road workers down in the ditch they usually are holding the stop and slow signs.
> 
> they don't want to be drafted.but like the protection they get from an armed military.even in the service they get the easy job because physicaly they are weeker
> 
> how about the olympics we should have it gender neutral.I would guess not many women would win a gold medal
> 
> If you were jumping from a burning building would you want a women to catch you or a man.
> 
> 
> if your being beat up by you chovenistic husband do you want a woman cop or a man cop comming to the house.
> 
> they still like doors to be opened for them but rearly open them for men.
> 
> maybe I'm jaded but it seem that if they ***** enough they get what they want just because they are the vocal minority.
> 
> 
> 
> With all that being said.........YOU SEE THAT IT's A KITCHEN NOW GET BACK IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think learning a skill is more important than having high education. But if it means going to a university to learn a skill, then it is something we have to do. 

Men can learn many different kinds of skills without a university diploma, why not. 

I had to go to a university to learn a skill, and that's what I did. If I hadn't gone to a university, I wouldn't have been able to post here. 

This society needs both men and women. In some area, men do a better job, in some area, women do a better job.

In a family, it is the same. If we just work together, respect each other, help each other, isn't this wonderful? Let's not argue who is better and who is worse, who gives more and who gives less, we have to agree that we both need each other.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

This thread is outrageous and inflamatory, no doubt that is how it was intended. Oozing with misogyny and your own reality. 
I won't touch on what has just been said by GP and Chilly but suffice it to say, it made me sad for humanity. So many things wrong in those messages.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> I remember watching an episode of cops one time. . .it wasn't even about this subject. The female cop was apprehending a suspect, who had broken parole. She had him put his hands on the hood and the video camera proceeded to film the criminal then beat the female cop to a bloody pulp as he turned on her.



I want to be more clear here. If there are physical requirements to a job, then an applicant for that job needs to meet those requirements. But there is no decent reason to exclude *women* and then make an exception for Xena. All that is needed is for applicants to demonstrate that they can meet the criteria for the job.

Did you know that once upon a time, men could not get jobs as flight attendants? How is that fair?


----------



## Amplexor




----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> Brennan,
> Trenton,
> 
> Please don't think this is a good thing.
> 
> You may not agree, but I think women respect men who have higher education than them.


God I cannot STAND your generalizations of this sort. This is a complete load of hogwash. YOU respect manly men doing manly things. (Put on women's clothing and hang around in bars...)


----------



## Mom6547

chillymorn said:


> but I don't usually see to many women road workers down in the ditch they usually are holding the stop and slow signs.
> 
> they don't want to be drafted.but like the protection they get from an armed military.even in the service they get the easy job because physicaly they are weeker


Do you have any idea how hard women have worked to achieve equality in the military? How hard they have fought for the right to get blown up in foxholes along with the men?



> If you were jumping from a burning building would you want a women to catch you or a man.


I would like every fire fighter to be hired or not based on their merit. Not their gender.


----------



## Trenton

Amplexor said:


>


Ruh Roh


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> I think learning a skill is more important than having high education. But if it means going to a university to learn a skill, then it is something we have to do.


The problem with higher education is what it is used for. For many people it is a piece of paper that is used to get a job. I am going to encourage my kids to get an EDUCATION, like say liberal arts, philosophy, logic, language. In that way, they can understand their world. And vote with intelligence.


----------



## Deejo

Concern Grows Over College Gender Gap

I think the kitchen reference chillymorn was making, were his wife's words to him ...

I LOL'd.

I have no dog in the feminism vs. anti-feminism fight. But I am content proclaiming that the waters remain rather 'muddy' at this point.

I was far more domestic than my wife. I do not say that with any sense of pride whatsoever.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Concern Grows Over College Gender Gap
> 
> I think the kitchen reference chillymorn was making, were his wife's words to him ...
> 
> I LOL'd.
> 
> I have no dog in the feminism vs. anti-feminism fight. But I am content proclaiming that the waters remain rather 'muddy' at this point.
> 
> I was far more domestic than my wife. I do not say that with any sense of pride whatsoever.


Nothing wrong with being domestic, Deejo. A man who can cook (well) is highly valued, to me at least.


----------



## Deejo

Could be worse ...


----------



## michzz

chillymorn said:


> they don't want to be drafted.but like the protection they get from an armed military.even in the service they get the easy job because physicaly they are weeker


Nobody has been drafted in the USA since the 1970s. No man, no woman.

I believe the Israelis conscript both men and women.


----------



## greenpearl

Brennan said:


> Nothing wrong with being domestic, Deejo. A man who can cook (well) is highly valued, to me at least.


My husband is very domesticated. 

He does the dishes, he does the laundry, and he makes good desserts. If we had an oven, he would do more western cooking too! 

LOVE HIM!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> Nobody has been drafted in the USA since the 1970s. No man, no woman.
> 
> I believe the Israelis conscript both men and women.


Exactly. Apparently just women enjoy the "protection" of the military. Certainly not men, nope. 
BTW....you wearing a skirt today?


----------



## greenpearl

Amplexor said:


>


What does this mean? :sleeping:

Are you worried that we might start a fight again?

I think we are quite civil here!


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> They do and I believe it is mandatory as in everyone has to serve a certain amount of time (not sure on the time period). Years ago I worked with a woman who had just ended her service.


I would love the idea of mandatory civil service IF there were non-military and non-violent options.


----------



## chillymorn

Deejo said:


> Concern Grows Over College Gender Gap
> 
> I think the kitchen reference chillymorn was making, were his wife's words to him ...
> 
> I LOL'd.
> 
> I have no dog in the feminism vs. anti-feminism fight. But I am content proclaiming that the waters remain rather 'muddy' at this point.
> 
> I was far more domestic than my wife. I do not say that with any sense of pride whatsoever.


My kitchen reference was really just a joke.


because I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan


----------



## Trenton

mom6547 said:


> i would love the idea of mandatory civil service if there were non-military and non-violent options.


me too!


----------



## Amplexor

greenpearl said:


> What does this mean? :sleeping:
> 
> Are you worried that we might start a fight again?
> 
> I think we are quite civil here!



Just that the thread was on the radar. (Ceiling Cat is at the vet today) 

So far so good, but I have already deleted one inflammatory comment from the thread. Carry on.


----------



## chillymorn

Trenton said:


> I have the best image that makes me laugh every time. I might have posted it before. It's really freaking funny.


that is really funny.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> I have the best image that makes me laugh every time. I might have posted it before. It's really freaking funny.


I'd be happy to iron his shirt, with it on him.


----------



## Deejo

Took me a minute before I read the yellow one ... then I just about choked laughing.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> I'd be happy to iron his shirt, with it on him.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## michzz

Mom6547 said:


> I would love the idea of mandatory civil service IF there were non-military and non-violent options.


I think you can find out how D!ck Chaney "served" or Newt Gingrich. Or "be a pilot" Like ex-President Bush was.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Personally, I have alot of RESPECT for the MEN who are bound & determined to provide financially, go out & get that College Degree fully prepared to be the MAIN Breadwinner of the family he creates. IF he is a good man, he will not "expect" his wife to carry this load, he will not even want her to carry half if he can help it. He generally respects "her choice" to work or not, whatever brings HER happiness. Cause any smart man knows, when the women is not happy, NOBODY is happy! 

I think many men now a days "expect" a working wife, it has become the way of the world. Is this good? I think not. 

I am a very frugal women, I believe that IS my resonsibility as I have chosen to stay home. If I floundered his $$, he would have ever right to kick my butt out into the work force. I do not care about new cars, building bigger houses, luxuries vacations & getting all the new gagets that hit the market, it just seems like EXCESS to me, and at what expense -sometimes at the expense of our children. 

With all of the progress comes other things. So many of us VALUE others by what they have aquaired in life, their net worth, comparing of successful careers. It can not he helped -a little devaluing here & there , it trickles down to the simple old fashioned homemaker. I sincerly hope this is not the case, but we all know, that temptation slips in our thinking- and many DO feel THIS way. 

* I would surely not belittle a man if he feels it is ON HIM to provide, that is an essential quality to have in a GOOD Man.* 

And the reality is -with every higher paying Career Job a woman aquires in society, there is one less Breadwinning position for a man to provide for his family (if one even believes in the strenght of the traditional family), where maybe his wife could stay home with the children, but now she will not have the option, they both need to work. And the crazy part is --often these same women turn around and loose respect for their men becaues they do not earn at much, or they are home filling the dishwasher & running a vacum cleaner. 

It seems many of the reasons & defenses of why women want a career now days -has more to do with Fear, not because they truly want a career but in case their men abuse & mistreat them. 

This is very valid too! A shame we have to go there! Both sides have a Beef. Scanners side AND the feminists. 

So marry carefully and do what your heart's desire is. These are MY thoughts. Some women are too bored at home, they have a gift for Teaching, they should TEACH, but going to college- just in fear of a man mistreating you in the furure and needing out. I am not going to be teaching my daughter that one. 

I will teach my sons it is their duty to provide, that is what a respectable Breadwinning father & husband does for his family. They NEED COLLEGE. 

I will try to gauge what my daughter wants from life to bring her happiness, if that is a career, she should pursue it. But if not , I just don't feel the college route for her is of the same importance of my sons. That is -unless there are no more of those old fashioned type men around to marry a nice girl who doesn't have that successful female career.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

The moral of the story is "men" need college, "women" do not. It is unbelievable to me that it is April 2011 and people still feel this way. A higher education should only be afforded to men? Why stop there? Why not just deny any education to women since it is only men who "need" to work.


----------



## Deejo

Ummm ... did anyone bother to look at my link?

Argument is moot. More women both attend and graduate college than men. 

Gap is expected to continue growing.


----------



## michzz

My 21-year-old daughter is graduating from college in a month.

There are no expectations in her generation of some guy stepping up to support them, nor is there interest in that lifestyle by the young women of her generation.

It's not a corrupt lifestyle to wish for economic independence for anyone.

The average wage in California is $46K plus change. Most homes here cost upwards of $350K (and double that in major metro areas).

And half of all marriages end in divorce.

A young woman deciding to hang her hat on the idea that a man will support her so don't bother with an education is taking a huge, huge gamble which ignores the current state of things.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Ummm ... did anyone bother to look at my link?
> 
> Argument is moot. More women both attend and graduate college than men.
> 
> Gap is expected to continue growing.


I read the article. What I found so shocking though was those here who think women should only go to college if they intend to have a career. Wanting to be a SAHM should deny you the right to higher education.


----------



## Mom6547

michzz said:


> A young woman deciding to hang her hat on the idea that a man will support her so don't bother with an education is taking a huge, huge gamble which ignores the current state of things.


Nothing truer was ever spoken.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> My 21-year-old daughter is graduating from college in a month.
> 
> There are no expectations in her generation of some guy stepping up to support them, nor is there interest in that lifestyle by the young women of her generation.
> 
> It's not a corrupt lifestyle to wish for economic independence for anyone.
> 
> The average wage in California is $46K plus change. Most homes here cost upwards of $350K (and double that in major metro areas).
> 
> And half of all marriages end in divorce.
> 
> A young woman deciding to hang her hat on the idea that a man will support her so don't bother with an education is taking a huge, huge gamble which ignores the current state of things.


It's a no win situation Michzz. If a woman is denied an education in favor of motherhood and has little to no job skills, she will have zero ability to support herself. So what then? ALIMONY, that's what. Everybody wins, right?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Where is all of this denying talk coming from ? I am not getting it. 

Who is denying any of these women an education? Every one of us have a right to it (those battles have already been faught -and rightly so). So long as we were responsible with our grades & can get accepted, noone is denied. A friend of mines son did horrible in school, not even sure how he graduated, and he got accepted to a Computer College. If he could , anyone could. 

My parents would not have paid a dime for me to Go to College, I knew that, but I didn't care to go anyway. I would never say anyone "denied" me anything or blame them. Had I wanted, I could have gotten a job, saved a little, got myself accepted & paid the loans back. Some hard work for sure, but doable. It falls on my choices. Nobody denied me. 

Did you ever see this very inspiring true story. Amazon.com: Homeless to Harvard - The Liz Murray Story: Thora Birch, Michael Riley, Robert Bockstael, Makyla Smith, Kelly Lynch, Jennifer Pisana, Aron Tager, Ellen Page, Marla McLean, Marguerite McNeil, Amber Godfrey, Seamus Morrison, Peter Levin, Al


Some parents put their daughter's future above their sons, Figure Skater Nancy Kerrigan's did, the son was quite disgrunted for yrs over their favor, he ended up shooting his dad in a drunken rage. Extreme circumstance of coarse. When it gets down to it, we should try to treat all our kids the same, to avoid this type of thing. 

But if you feel cheated by your parents (after all they ALL make alot of mistakes along the way)-watch that movie, you will thank God you had yours. 

At the end of the day, it is still our life, we form our own destinys. I can only blame myself if I find myself in a dire situation down the road for the choices I made to skip a higher education.


----------



## michzz

SimplyAmorous said:


> At the end of the day, it is still our life, we form our own destinys. I can only blame myself if I find myself in a dire situation down the road for the choices I made to skip a higher education.


To a point I agree with this. However, privilege, economics, and family size, and family dynamics has a lot to do with destiny too.

The evolved self awareness needed to succeed in life gets a boost in some situations, a smackdown in others.

And going to college can shortcut the path to self awareness and success in life in addition to opening economic doors shut otherwise.


----------



## Mom6547

SimplyAmorous said:


> Who is denying any of these women an education? Every one of us have a right to it (those battles have already been faught -and rightly so).


We do now. The point is that without the feminist movement, we would not have equal access to educational opportunities. If we worked the will of people who do not see advantage in the feminist movement, we would still be denied these opps.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Mom6547 said:


> We do now. The point is that without the feminist movement, we would not have equal access to educational opportunities. If we worked the will of people who do not see advantage in the feminist movement, we would still be denied these opps.


And thank God for them ! I guess I (personally) am quite content with where we are NOW. I have not read much about the feminist movement (sounds like a variety of camps) , not sure exactly what women are after. We seem to have all the choices at our feet from what I can see. Even more favor than men these days. (below) 

I am not for drafting women at all. I only have one daughter and if they force her to go to war, I will be NOT be happy. I like things the way they are. If this is a feminist aim, I am against it personally. 

I am not for women being the head of the household either, since they look down on men who are not. You cant have it both ways. 

Men have always gotten their source of strength and manlihood from being Providers, Protecting-- however Scanner Described that, and women (generally) get thier strength more from emotional connections, bonding, we carry the children, we breastfeed, we care more about friendships, we are the nurterers, this is in our natures, so it stands to reason (for me), --this is more tied to the home. It's just my opionion, noone needs to worry. I am hardly taking up any causes, unless they want to draft my daughter! 

My husband job is Bluecollar, alot of heavy lifting, mechanics type stuff, but they had to hire a woman to meet the quota (or whatever -to satisfy they have a woman employed there). The one they have now is better, the strong farm hand type, but the last woman was not suited for this job, she was a source of weakness , always needing help. Thankfully she quit, they all wanted to fire her, but being Union, too difficult. I don't feel a woman should have gotten that job at all , but someone somewhere was making these descions -and not in the best interest of the company. Was this the result of these rights we faught for -probably. 

I am all for equal pay for equal work but if a woman is not physically capable (even stastically so) for these types of heavy labor manly type positions, getting banged up , greasy, pounding metal, I don't see, with all other options in this world, why women should HAVE TO BE hired.


----------



## Mom6547

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am not for drafting women at all. I only have one daughter and if they force her to go to war, I will be NOT be happy. I like things the way they are. If this is a feminist aim, I am against it personally.


I am not an advocate of the draft for anyone. But I cannot FATHOM what the philosophical argument would be for a draft for boys and not girls.



> I am not for women being the head of the household either, since they look down on men who are not. You cant have it both ways.


There are many things one can say about women. Women have different genitalia than men. Women tend to be less hairy than men. They tend to have less muscle mass than men. There is even some reason to believe that the are evolutionary traits carried forth from pre-civilization like men's seeming better suited for navigation. 

But I see no reason in the world to generalize that WOMEN prefer a male head of household. I think YOU prefer a male head of household.

snip a bunch of generalizations that are all about societal education and expectation than anything else.




> I am all for equal pay for equal work but if a woman is not physically capable (even stastically so) for these types of heavy labor manly type positions, getting banged up , greasy, pounding metal, I don't see, with all other options in this world, why women should HAVE TO BE hired.


They shouldn't. I am not sure who you think is advocating that.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I sure feel we need some of the feminist crusaders here - with how far we have come to influence & change Laws -to take this further into these Third World countries, that is where the real victimization is taking place, Religious beliefs is what is holding those poor women hostage. 

Womenâ€™s Rights â€” Global Issues

BBC article - Lots of feedback.

BBC News | TALKING POINT | Are women undervalued?


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> I'm with you on this. I don't think women should be drafted either. I don't think there's anything wrong in valuing the differences between men and women but I do believe women need to have more value given to them.


You can't GIVE someone value. You can only recognize what is there.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

WOW, I just read this feedback on that Undervalued link : 



> You know, if women cannot manage to work and get paid handsomely and are stuck in their childbearing and caring roles of course they will be undervalued. For this reason I choose not to marry so I won't have a husband who will demand this. Women will feel much more valuable with jobs than children - I know that is a terrible thing to say but that's how I feel. Just like GM food is changing nature, women are too - it is not their nature anymore to bear and care for children. Manisha, UK



This woman does not speak MY language or what I want from life at all. I get immense pleasure & satisfaction from raising my children, being able to mold & guide them & watch them grow before me. All I wanted in life was to be a Mother (and a wife of coarse), it was a driving force for me, and when I struggled with Infertility for 6 yrs, pregnancy eluding me, I was a Bi**ch to the world, not sure how husband put up with me! Never felt driven for a career. 

All I hope is that doesn't make others Undervalue ME. I think we should all BE and DO what our hearts desires is -so long as we can live within our income.


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## Mom6547

> You know, if women cannot manage to work and get paid handsomely and are stuck in their childbearing and caring roles of course they will be undervalued.


We don't think parenting is a work worth value? Whether it is performed excellently by a man or a woman, I think it is of supreme value. I don't roll with this respondent at all.


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## greenpearl

SA,

I like the attitude you have about life!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner said that a SAHM getting a college education is a waste of money. Why? Assigning value based on income. So a SAHM therefore has no value, since she doesn't earn anything or much. 
If we are going to use his logic and apply it to all, then apparently my husband is of more value than many of yours. SA and Trenton, you two have mentioned your husbands income. My husband earns much more. Does that make him more valuable than what SA's husband does? Working a blue collar job and making a physically tough living supporting his wife and 6 children? No! Does his earning more make him more valuable because Trenton's husband makes less in advertising and supports 3 children? No! 
If we are going to assign value to people based on their income, then wouldn't those who ripped us off from Wall Street have the highest value? 
Are we really going down that road? Educating only those who have the highest earning value. If so, then don't educate short people and overweight people. Studies have shown that tall and slim people earn more. If you are attractive that is an added bonus so don't educate the uglies.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton,
If I wasn't married and I was bi, I would marry you if you would have me.  TAM the gay way. Awesome!!


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## greenpearl

I am going to faint..................................


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## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> The problem is believing that your self worth is equal to your financial worth. It's a mistake of our society in general though. To me value comes from how much we enjoy our lives, touch the lives of others and reach out/reach in.


:iagree: 




Brennan said:


> Scanner said that a SAHM getting a college education is a waste of money. Why? Assigning value based on income. So a SAHM therefore has no value, since she doesn't earn anything or much.


Maybe it is JUST me, but I did not take his comments like this at all. 

In fact, speaking for myself here (not anyone else), had I went to college, it would have been a huge waste of $$ -beings I desired to be that SAHM in my heart, nurturing a family. I would likely have been bit**ing about it -having to pay these loans back & putting myself in a hole. Plus it likely would have compromised my being able to stay home with my 1st son. 

We had a different plan (which many on here seem to judge as stupid, but that is fine). We scrimped & saved since we met -dreaming of a Country house w/acreage. We are both Savers. We bought that dream house, had more land than my small expectations given our income. Had I had all that debt from college, would I be here today? Probably not. We qualified by the skin of our noses because we had perfect credit, NO debt & 40% of the Purchase price in cash. We paid this house off in 7 yrs. I really dont have any regrets. 





Trenton said:


> If we are going to use his logic and apply it to all, then apparently my husband is of more value than many of yours. SA and Trenton, you two have mentioned your husbands income. My husband earns much more.


And I think many people would JUDGE on this but I dont think that was Scanners Logic at all. Maybe he can speak for himself. 



Trenton said:


> Does that make him more valuable than what SA's husband does? Working a blue collar job and making a physically tough living supporting his wife and 6 children?


This depends on WHO you are asking & how they gauge "value", if like Trenton said, people look at your income, then Yeah, your husabnd IS more successful in life & he will get more respected. If he was single, women would be flocking. We know women look for $$$, to even suggest women don't is complete BS. I think I am very different than most, I married a man who worked in a small Grocery Store, he KNEW it had not a darn thing to do with money. 

The way of the world will always be to "admire" the Rich, the famous, the beautiful, we fall at their feet & grovel. It is retarted. I do tend to look at good looking men , so forgive me, but do we want homely actors in our movies, our leading roles. Other than this, I am not like the world , never was, more FOR the underdog, cause da** they are more appreciative anyways - usually more genuine at heart, so long as they are RESPONSIBLE people. I do not like irresponsible reckless carelss people who bring harm to themselves & everyone around them, that is where my judgement falls. But how much they earn means virtually nothing to me. 

I look at character & choose my friends accordingly, this is how I VALUE. 

Maybe a thread should be started on how we* value *others, might be interesting. Not sure how honest people would be about it though.


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## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> Maybe it is JUST me, but I did not take his comments like this at all.
> 
> In fact, speaking for myself here (not anyone else), had I went to college, it would have been a huge waste of $$ -beings I desired to be that SAHM in my heart, nurturing a family. I would likely have been bit**ing about it -having to pay these loans back & putting myself in a hole. Plus it likely would have compromised my being able to stay home with my 1st son.
> 
> We had a different plan (which many on here seem to judge as stupid, but that is fine). We scrimped & saved since we met -dreaming of a Country house w/acreage. We are both Savers. We bought that dream house, had more land than my small expectations given our income. Had I had all that debt from college, would I be here today? Probably not. We qualified by the skin of our noses because we had perfect credit, NO debt & 40% of the Purchase price in cash. We paid this house off in 7 yrs. I really dont have any regrets.


 


Very nicely done.

I never viewed this from the perspective of 'opportunity', who should have it and who should not.

It's about choice, how we make them, why we make them. The fact that we can make them. This is how I saw the discussion framed. But this is also because I am extraordinarily enlightened, and touched my 'inner girl' via Trenton's previous thread.

I don't think there is much room to argue that anyone would question whether or not an individual is free to make certain choices - and feminism has opened up the field of those choices.

Of course, we then have the ability to gauge the wisdom, practicality, success, or effectiveness of the choice after having made it.

Ex has a college degree. She is one of the most capable women I know, but she has chosen to make her children, particularly our son, her absolute focus.

I do not have a college degree. I was always extraordinarily self conscious of being a provider and 'making it'. I did, and I have. I have one friend in particular who shakes his head at the notion that he dropped nearly 100K for college, and in terms of earning power, we are at parity.

'Value' to me is a dicey discussion. The parameters of what does or does not have value are fluid depending upon the circumstances.


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## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> but this is also because I am extraordinarily enlightened


 And this - dear Deejo you are!  You know I consider you the "Forum God" here- when you speak, it often blows the others away. Very enlightened, thought out - always. 

If YOU ever had issues with something I said, I would feel as though I needed to check myself , re-examine somehow -that is how enlightened I personally view your take on things & well spoken thoughts.


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## AFEH

Scannerguard said:


> To further expound on my political incorrectness. . .I totally 100% agree with Phyllis. . .welfare to women with children made the father irrelevant.
> 
> Why not just drop your seed and run? Father Taxpayor and Unwed Mother will raise the kids.
> 
> Like it or not, as a Moderate, I have to concede the Right has a point on this (Phyllis being the Right in this case).


UK's now got the highest proportion of single parent mothers ... in the world.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> UK's now got the highest proportion of single parent mothers ... in the world.
> 
> Bob


So with those statistics, wouldn't a college degree be something that women should get, regardless if parenthood and staying home is in their future? 
Also, as has been tossed around here that college is pricey. Why yes, it is. Scholarships, partials, grants, loans, parents saving, guaranteed tuition plans. It can be done. You don't need to cherry pick through your kids on who gets the upper hand. Goodness.


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## AFEH

The women in the previous generation in my family and my wife's family just about all outlived the men. Some by 12 years. It is a statistically proven fact that women outlive men.

Transferring pension funds into an annuity used to be beneficial for men, because we don’t live as long as women. The insurance companies do not take risks on the annuities and it’s highly unlikely that even as things stand I’ll receive in my retirement all the money that was in the pension fund. Now all insurance companies/annuity providers must by Sept 2012 issue gender neutral annuity quotes.

Now instead of my statistically proven likely gone from the planet at age 78 or whatever this is to suddenly jump to age 85 or whatever. With the direct result that I will see even less of the money that is in my pension fund. So I’m cashing in early.

Bob


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## Wrench

My wife earned her degree over 10 years while she worked, had our babies, and supported my business. Her job took off so fast I had to stay home to take care of things last year, both our kids had been in daycare since they were 6 months old but it was getting harder to decide who could leave work if the kids got sick etc.

A lot of men's job's require you to give up any home life because so many of the men have wives who take care of the home. A professional woman basically has what was traditionally a husband's job, so as in our house you end up with two dad's and no mom. 

I'm putting the kids back in the daycare system and going back to work because the shortage of money and her animosity over me spending more time with the kids is breaking us up.

But I'm still very proud of her acomplishments :smthumbup:


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## Amplexor

Brennan said:


> Also, as has been tossed around here that college is pricey. Why yes, it is. Scholarships, partials, grants, loans, parents saving, guaranteed tuition plans. It can be done. You don't need to cherry pick through your kids on who gets the upper hand. Goodness.


:iagree::iagree:

Anyone with kids looking to go to college should look for their state 529 college savings plan and start putting some money towards it as soon as possible. We did but at $18K a year for a state university I wish we'd started sooner. The interest earned is not taxable. Take a look into the programs.


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## AFEH

Brennan said:


> So with those statistics, wouldn't a college degree be something that women should get, regardless if parenthood and staying home is in their future?
> Also, as has been tossed around here that college is pricey. Why yes, it is. Scholarships, partials, grants, loans, parents saving, guaranteed tuition plans. It can be done. You don't need to cherry pick through your kids on who gets the upper hand. Goodness.


Brennan I’m all for equal rights for women … and men. So please don’t get me wrong.

There is a massive downside to some positive changes in “life”. Life/culture is a system, make some seemingly “positive” changes in the system and it may well have unforeseen negative consequences.

The UK is “suffering” from years, maybe a couple of decades of change. A few. Teaching sex and birth control to children as young as seven and upwards. It seems to give them the “GO AHEAD”. Removal of corporal punishment from schools. Morning after pill available from chemists/doctors for under 16 year olds without their parent’s knowledge or consent. If you go ahead and get pregnant, you can kill it. These are CHILDREN. Free housing and money for food etc. for single mothers as young as 16. YES FREE. Get pregnant, don’t kill it and you WILL be rewarded with a home and money to live on. And we’ve got over 1,000,000 households with single parent mothers out of a population approaching 70,000,000. In the worse cases some of those mothers have 5 children by five different “fathers”. Pregnancies of 12 and 13 year olds. Teaching a moral conscience through religion is politically incorrect and may offend minorities.

Some of our schools have “gone wild”. The teachers in one just this week went on strike because of the abuse they were getting from the pupils. The headmistress said “There’s not a problem. It’s working”.

Of course all this doesn’t lay at the feet of the downside of feminism. Of course it doesn’t. It’s also to do with socialism and liberalism .. and taking the masculinity out of “things”. In some cases it’s just gone too far, far too far and I for one cannot see how it can get back to “somewhere in the middle” without a healthy does of conservatism. Just for the record, I do not consider myself to be a socialist, liberalist or conservative.

Bob
PS: They are not interested in a college degree. Why? They don’t need it.


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## Conrad

AFEH said:


> UK's now got the highest proportion of single parent mothers ... in the world.
> 
> Bob


And - the #1 name for baby boys in the UK - Mohammed.


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## michzz

AFEH said:


> Of course all this doesn’t lay at the feet of the downside of feminism. Of course it doesn’t. It’s also to do with socialism and liberalism .


Been downhill ever since the empire was broken up.

Do you think the sense of entitlement for free everything starts at the top? The royal family gets incredible free ride for not accomplishing much beyond being supermarket rag fodder.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I am not talking about yobs who don't want to get an education. I was referring to Scanner saying that a woman who "just wants to nurse" isn't needing to get a degree, a premise I wholeheartedly disagree with. Who better to get a degree than a SAHM? She is raising the future. Heck, those kids teachers need a degree, why shouldn't the same hold true for her? So we can go back to my original comment that the OP saying that a SAHM getting a degree is a waste is purely based on economics. It is a waste in his eyes because she doesn't earn a paycheck. So then value is only placed based on income.


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## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I am not talking about yobs who don't want to get an education. I was referring to Scanner saying that a woman who "just wants to nurse" isn't needing to get a degree, a premise I wholeheartedly disagree with.


I would word it slightly differently. I think mothers should get *an education*. I think the degree is not half bad idea from a back up plan standpoint. But the education is more important than the degree.

There are plenty of degrees that don't come with much of a corresponding education.

I think anyone who votes NEEDS an education. And I don't think high school cuts it. History, liberal arts and logic and philosophy are too weak.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Mom6547 said:


> I would word it slightly differently. I think mothers should get *an education*. I think the degree is not half bad idea from a back up plan standpoint. But the education is more important than the degree.
> 
> There are plenty of degrees that don't come with much of a corresponding education.
> 
> I think anyone who votes NEEDS an education. And I don't think high school cuts it. History, liberal arts and logic and philosophy are too weak.


I think a degree is very important, especially for women with kids. 50% divorce and if she doen't have one, how is she going to support herself. If we value only men having a degree then I hope there are loads of men here who would welcome paying lifetime alimony.
As my father used to say, you can put a fence at the top of the hill, or an ambulance at the bottom. Deep thoughts. Deep thoughts indeed.


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## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> I think a degree is very important, especially for women with kids. 50% divorce and if she doen't have one, how is she going to support herself.


That is what I meant by the back up plan. I put it poorly.



> If we value only men having a degree then I hope there are loads of men here who would welcome paying lifetime alimony.


I can't get my knickers in a twist over this whole who values whom thing. As long as *I* value me, I will always be fine, fine. I think if more people looked to their own self esteem, the whole question goes away. We'd all be walking around with such confidence that male of female we could hardly fail to notice how valuable we all are.


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## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it is JUST me, but I did not take his comments like this at all.
> 
> In fact, speaking for myself here (not anyone else), had I went to college, it would have been a huge waste of $$ -beings I desired to be that SAHM in my heart, nurturing a family. I would likely have been bit**ing about it -having to pay these loans back & putting myself in a hole. Plus it likely would have compromised my being able to stay home with my 1st son.
> 
> We had a different plan (which many on here seem to judge as stupid, but that is fine). We scrimped & saved since we met -dreaming of a Country house w/acreage. We are both Savers. We bought that dream house, had more land than my small expectations given our income. Had I had all that debt from college, would I be here today? Probably not. We qualified by the skin of our noses because we had perfect credit, NO debt & 40% of the Purchase price in cash. We paid this house off in 7 yrs. I really dont have any regrets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I think many people would JUDGE on this but I dont think that was Scanners Logic at all. Maybe he can speak for himself.
> 
> 
> This depends on WHO you are asking & how they gauge "value", if like Trenton said, people look at your income, then Yeah, your husabnd IS more successful in life & he will get more respected. If he was single, women would be flocking. We know women look for $$$, to even suggest women don't is complete BS. I think I am very different than most, I married a man who worked in a small Grocery Store, he KNEW it had not a darn thing to do with money.
> 
> The way of the world will always be to "admire" the Rich, the famous, the beautiful, we fall at their feet & grovel. It is retarted. I do tend to look at good looking men , so forgive me, but do we want homely actors in our movies, our leading roles. Other than this, I am not like the world , never was, more FOR the underdog, cause da** they are more appreciative anyways - usually more genuine at heart, so long as they are RESPONSIBLE people. I do not like irresponsible reckless carelss people who bring harm to themselves & everyone around them, that is where my judgement falls. But how much they earn means virtually nothing to me.
> 
> I look at character & choose my friends accordingly, this is how I VALUE.
> 
> Maybe a thread should be started on how we* value *others, might be interesting. Not sure how honest people would be about it though.


SA,

You and I have a lot in common!

I am not envious of rich people! Their money means stress to me. The more money they have, the more stress they have. 

On Tuesday my son and I were talking about money. My son said money is good, you are happy when you see all the money in front of you. I told my son: Yes, looking at that pile of money is a good feeling, but son, the process of making that pile of money is not that great feeling. A lot of people get rich by not being honest, we'd better not become those kind of people. We can only make honest money, it means more money we make, more stress we have. And our body can only take a certain level of stress, if it is too much, we are ruining our own health. 


My husband and I are not crazy about high education either, we don't want to climb social ladders. We went to college, we achieved a skill, and that skill is helping us make a living, that's it! 

Like you said, we have to be responsible people. We make sure that we work and make money, but we have to be responsible about our spending too! 

We don't exhaust ourselves to make a **** load of money. We just choose to have a simple life style. People are working hard to make a lot of money so they can have big houses, big cars, brand name stuff. We just don't need it. What we make is more than what we spend, actually twice more. We don't have much stress about money! 

I never compare myself with my neighbors or coworkers. They can have whatever they want, I like the care free mind I have.


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## Syrum

Mom6547 said:


> I can't get my knickers in a twist over this whole who values whom thing. As long as *I* value me, I will always be fine, fine. I think if more people looked to their own self esteem, the whole question goes away. We'd all be walking around with such confidence that male of female we could hardly fail to notice how valuable we all are.


I completely disagree, because unless society realizes the value of women and makes a shift towards valuing them from a female centric viewpoint, rather then a patriarchal one then nothing is going to change.

I can value myself all I want, however that doesn't change the fact that stats show all women after marriage and myself because of things beyond my control, am in a worse position then my ex husband. And believe me I think I'm awesome.


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## sisters359

> But I cannot FATHOM what the philosophical argument would be for a draft for boys and not girls.


Actually, there is one: you don't need as many men as women to keep populations growing (or recovering, for that matter). It is the number of women that determines the growth rate. Each of us can pretty much only have one baby at a time, and in any event, men can't have any babies--but each one can father lots.

I cannot fathom my daughter being called to war--but I cannot fathom my sons being called to war either. I'm an equal-opportunity objector to any draft. And to wars, esp. But that's another thread.


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## chillymorn

so when only one guy is left he gets to impregnate all the women to bring the population back.

I guess they will be lining up for the lucky SOB 

and can he refuse to do the fat ulgy ones

sorry the ones that don't appeal to him (thats PC) for fat and ulgy


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## Amplexor

chillymorn said:


> so when only one guy is left he gets to impregnate all the women to bring the population back.


See the 1975 cult classic "A Boy and His Dog". Not as much fun as it sounds.


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## sisters359

Hey, if HE is fat and ugly, it might be "good bye" for our species! Or, women could raid the facilities where they store embryos, implant some, get some better choices in male partners (after a long wait, of course), and prove that we mean it when we say, "I wouldn't f*ck you if you were the last man on earth!"


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## chillymorn

sisters359 said:


> Hey, if HE is fat and ugly, it might be "good bye" for our species! Or, women could raid the facilities where they store embryos, implant some, get some better choices in male partners (after a long wait, of course), and prove that we mean it when we say, "I wouldn't f*ck you if you were the last man on earth!"


LOL 


but I thought women wern't as visiual

He might be kind and compasionate,funny and Hung.

wouldn't at least some of the women fall for him


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