# Is there such thing as perfection, or is "settling" inevitable?



## mediocremichael

I am a 35 y/o divorced man. My divorce was finalized 5 years ago and I have been taking dating seriously for the past two years. I have been dating a woman for 10 months. We met when I moved and we began working together (hospital, totally different departments).

If perfection was a real thing, she’d be so close. I find that I’m holding myself back, and I’m unsure if that’s due to guarding myself or if she’s not the elusive “the one”. My ex-wife was, and remains to this day, a raging *****.

She’s smart, and has a good career. She is one of the many varieties of therapists (not psychological). She spends most of her days working with people who don’t want her there and don’t want to cooperate. She has been bitten, spit on and had crap thrown at her. I have never heard her complain about her job, aside from saying it was a hard day. She never seems frustrated. She has more patience than anyone I have ever met. She is ambitious and wants to get her PhD when time allows. She wants to keep moving up the career path. If she says she is going to do something, she always follows through. She genuinely cares about everyone, whether she knows them or not. She volunteers regularly. We agree on most things and we want the same things in life. We have very different hobbies, but she is always up to do or try mine and does so happily. She laughs at her mistakes rather than getting frustrated. She’s been able to teach me knew things and get me into new hobbies that we can do together. She makes me want to be a better person. I have been volunteering for the first time in my life, and enjoying it. I’m far happier being around her than I have been in the last two decades. She immediately embraced my family and goes to visit my grandfather, who is in a nursing home, almost every day. I’ll admit, I was seeing him once a month at most and my parents rarely go. He is a miserable man, but even he is happy around her. Physically, she is gorgeous. She is naturally beautiful without makeup, which is more important than it may seem.

But… Aside from my grandfather, who is not totally with it, my family doesn’t think I should marry her. They like her as a person, but not as my wife. My friends, for the most part, feel the same. They say things along the line of, “She’s great, but you can do better.” I will be honest, I have had the same reservations about her from the beginning. As I got to know her those reservations got smaller and smaller, but are still lingering.

The main issue is that she has children. I do not have any children, which is part of the issue for my family. They don’t like the “instant family” and me taking on other men’s children. They worry that going from no kid experience to a 7, 9 and 16 year old will be too much to handle. It’s something that I’ve worried about as well, but that worry has gotten better over time.

The bigger issue is that she has 3 children, each from different men. That on it’s own does not sound like a very redeeming quality. Two of the three fathers are involved to varying degrees and I would have to have them in my life and deal with them. I have met both men, one is fine and she says causes no issues. The other is a royal jackass. My family like to say, I’d not only be marrying her but them as well.

Then, my family and friends like to judge that not only did she have three children from different men and wasn’t married, but that she had them young (not knowing the full details). She had a child at 16, and still managed to get through schooling and do well. She had her second child at 24 and 3rd at 26. She is 33. We have talked about children and both agree that we would want one more, together.

When we met, she wasn’t looking for a relationship. It was a slow progression to start dating. She has said that she didn’t expect anyone to want her and was honest from the start about her past (most of it anyway). I can tell by watching her that she is a really good mother. I have met her kids a few times, and maybe some of the hesitation comes from not having enough time with them. She is guarding them from being hurt. I wasn’t introduced until recently.

The other issue that comes to mind is that she wants a wedding. She has never been married and she wants that special day. I’ve been down that road before and I have no desire for another wedding, but I would happily do it for her. We would also be unable to move more than 1 hour away because of her custody arrangement. Currently, that is not a concern but who knows what the future holds.

To throw a little context into the mix, my ex-wife cheated for the majority of our marriage and got knocked up. I found out when the baby was 2 months old that it wasn’t mine. The child was young enough that it was better for me to completely exit its life. It killed my parents, who had already bonded with their first grandchild and me. That was my first child, in my mind. It was a rough time all around and my family doesn’t want another “*****” in my life.

She is an amazing person. I don’t think I have met a better person in my life. These things are holding me back from feeling 100% sure about her. I don’t want to marry the wrong woman again, but is there such thing as perfect? Are these issues a legitimate reason to call it quits with an otherwise “perfect” woman? Am I wrong to have these reservations, or are they justified? I know that the hypothetical day I marry her my parents would drop it and be happy for us, right now they are trying to protect me from another mistake.


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## 2ntnuf

Your family knows what they are talking about. She's shown them things she doesn't show you, or they have a gut feeling. They know you and realize you won't be happy in the long run. Listen to them.


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## SunCMars

Give her a try.

Give her two years.

Any cracks in her foundation will surely appear by then.

It could be that she has a poor picker, choosing the wrong man at the right time, not waiting them out as we tell you to wait her out.

Let the paint dry, see if it rubs off easily, see if she later rubs you the wrong way.

Do you want children?

One of your own?

That should play into this decision.

Your family, your famlly they want the best for you.
What is best for you is your decision, not theirs.

Listen to their advice, follow your heart and your brain.

Take your time, you may have a keeper. A keep her.





The Typist I-


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## mediocremichael

My family and friends think longterm I’d be unhappy. They also worry that she’s going to do the same thing that my ex-wife did. My mom says she has a bad feeling. That being said she loved my ex-wife so I wouldn't trust her gut feeling 100%. I don’t think that she has shown them a side of her that she hasn’t shown me. They have never said anything to insinuate that. 

She knows that I (and my family and friends) have hesitation. She knows my family and friends don’t think we should be together and that I can do “better”. I think, at times, she tries to prove herself to them and maybe comes off as though she is trying too hard. Couple weeks ago she said that she knows the majority of men wouldn’t want her and families wouldn’t want their sons to marry her, and that she gets it if I end things. It broke my heart hearing her say it. She is happy. I don’t want to drag things out and hurt her. Is it okay to need more time, 10 months in, to decide if this is what I want? 

I do want a child of my own and she wants one with me, if we were to work out. We agree on that. Time is a factor, we can’t wait too long.


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## Adelais

My first instinct was to judge her and tell you not to "settle." 3 children from 3 different men, none of them her husband is a red flag. A tiger doesn't change its stripes.

But then I wondered, what do you have to bring to the table? What makes you so much better than she is?


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## Violet28

Have you had sex with more than three people? This is basically what you are judging her for, yes? Or the fact that she got pregnant? I don't find her kids and baby daddies as concerning as her low self esteem and negative statements. I also find it concerning that you are judging her for her past, despite her being a good mom and hardworking. If you aren't going to accept and value her as she is, kids and all, let her go.


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## sunsetmist

Would she be more appealing if she had aborted or given her children up for adoption? Visiting your grandfather (who is out of it) daily may be a bit much. Hard to know about other things, but sounds like she tries harder because she knows she made some poor decisions earlier. It must be difficult to be happy when others hold your past over you.

It is okay to need more time, 10 months in, to decide if this is what you want. Thinking you need to spend more time with children without misleading the situation.

Bottom line, what is her character? How do you FEEL about her? Do you care for her? Does she care for you? How does she explain three kids with different dads, especially the last two--lack of birth control? Are you ready to be a stepdad to three children? What do friends and family see that you do not? Why are friends and family even seriously involved in judging and knowing about her past? Settling?? do you truly feel like this?

If she disappeared tomorrow, what would that mean for you?


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## uhtred

No one is perfect. What is important is how much their imperfections matter to *you*. Don't marry someone you don't love without reservation.


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## mediocremichael

I don’t think of myself as better than her and I don’t think it’s fair to compare baggage. Yes, she has more than I do but she is also a far better person than I am. 

I am not judging her for having sex with X amount of people, and I sure hope I have never come off that way to her. I have had sex with more people, and in worse circumstances, than she has. I would never judge someone on it. The judgement comes from her having 3 children from 3 men and the choices associated with it. She has explained her past to me, in detail. My friends and family do not know the details, so maybe they shouldn’t be voicing an opinion at all. I don’t think she is a bad person, at all. I have had is suggested to me that she is overcompensating and this isn’t the real her. 

She doesn’t often say negative things about herself. I don’t think she had low self worth or self esteem. I mentioned some things she has said because it was on my mind, but she doesn’t regularly say things like that. 

I am guessing that in a general, not specifically to me, sense she would be more appealing had she aborted or chose adoption. On a quick glance, people wouldn’t know and wouldn’t automatically judge. I think all 3 are hard choices and have their own consequences. I can’t say how I would feel had she chooses adoption or abortion, because she didn’t and there is no way for me to truly know. There wouldn’t be children in the mix, but her decisions leading up to each pregnancy would have been the same. 

Right now, today, I’m not ready to be a step-dad. I need more time with her kids. I have only spent chunks of time with her children a handful of times. We do have more times planned. When I feel unsure about the relationship I second guess spending time with her kids, but I need to spend time with her kids to ease some of the uncertainty. I won’t know if I can handle being a step-dad, unless I jump into it rather than dip my pinky in. 

I have a lot of opinions to think about tonight. I shouldn’t be judging her and making assumptions from her past actions. I love her, and without her past decisions she wouldn’t be who she is today. I don’t want to lose her. She isn’t trying to rush our relationship, so I should keep taking it slow and no worry about it.


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## Wolfman1968

Violet28 said:


> Have you had sex with more than three people? This is basically what you are judging her for, yes? Or the fact that she got pregnant? I don't find her kids and baby daddies as concerning as her low self esteem and negative statements. I also find it concerning that you are judging her for her past, despite her being a good mom and hardworking. If you aren't going to accept and value her as she is, kids and all, let her go.


Actually, I am going to disagree with you about this "judging" BS. 


It's common enough that a young couple or a young woman (in this case) would be careless and have an accidental pregnancy. This has been happening since time immemorial. What I see as a red flag is that after the FIRST child, apparently she learned nothing about birth control precautions or marriage so that she had TWO more pregnancies while not married (despite wanting marriage, as the OP posts). Once can be an accident. Three is an ingrained behavior pattern. That's not good. Especially in someone who apparently is intelligent enough to be working on a PhD career path.


OP, I'd also caution you when so many people--your family, your friends--don't think she's right for you. We're not talking about one person not thinking you belong together, it is an across the board opinion. When the weight of opinion is so heavily learning to this one side, I would think that a prudent person would ask---what are they seeing that I am not? After all, the expression is, "Love is blind", and that might apply to you. You may THINK she's the perfect person because you're incapable of seeing issues that EVERYONE else who cares about you apparently see. You have to consider the possibility that you are just not being objective here.


I interact with doctors and nurses every day in my line of work. I have a friend--a physician--who got involved with a nurse at his hospital. All his friends and co-workers who knew this nurse tried to warn him off, but in his words, "I thought I knew better than they did." She got pregnant shortly after their wedding, but within a year he ran across calculations she had done figuring out her alimony and child support amounts. They weren't having any problems he knew about---in short, he got played by a gold digger looking to get set up financially, just as all his friends and co-workers had warned. But he lost his objectivity, and thought he "knew better than everyone else". In reality, he didn't. And he isn't stupid or naïve in relationships--he was already a divorced father of two kids before he ever met this woman.


I don't know your girlfriend. She may be great, she may not be. What I do know is that it is all too common for the person in the midst of the relationship to lose their objectivity. I also know that in matters of love, it is all too common for people to disregard the warnings of their friends and family, much to their own disadvantage. It is only wise to consider that a situation of lost objectivity may be happening to you, too.


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## Diana7

There is no such thing as perfect but there is perfect for you. I cant make out if you are not sure, or if the people you know are putting doubts in your mind. I feel that if you were 100% sure you would not care about what others say. When I met my now husband(divorced dad of 2 children aged 17 and 21), I wouldn't have cared what others said because I KNEW he was the one. He in turn became a good step dad to my three children(late teens and early 20's at that time), as they had no contact with their dad. He said that part of marrying me was being there for them. If you stay with her you are taking on a package, the children as well as her. 
Is your friend and families opinion based on the fact that she already has three children? That they have 3 different dads? That she isn't right for you character wise? That they can see things in her that you cant? Red flags? 

It is a massive thing taking on a single mum of three children. There will be a lot of working out where you fit in and dealing with the other 2 dads as well. Living with them all wont be easy, especially with the teenager I suspect, and if he is a boy he almost certainly sees himself as the man of the home. They have always just had their mum, how will they react to a man being with them full time? Its a totally foreign concept to them. At this time they barely know you. 
Getting married is a perfectly reasonable request, if you have doubts about doing that then that is a worry as well. 

Not sure if these are you own worries or others worries or a mixture of the two, but I am pretty sure that if you were 100% sure you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be concerned about what others think.

Having said all that she sounds like a lovely caring person. A good mum and lovely girlfriend. You are 35, you shouldn't be worrying about what your mum or anyone else thinks. Maybe you mum is worried that you will not have children and she will not have a grandchild again? 

I would see what happens as you get to know the children. Its hard to see that you would find a woman who seems as nice, even if it does seem she has no idea about contraception!!! Only time will tell if this will work. Get to see how she is with her children. With her family. How her children act towards her. How she deals with the other dads. How the children react to you. Get to know them better and make an effort to talk to them and get to know them individually. 
I am guessing that in 6 months or so you will know one way or the other, but I do think its important that you communicate your concerns to her.


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## Spicy

Interesting post, and welcome to TAM!

I just had a couple of questions:

How much time do you spend with her in person in a typical week?
Have you met her family? What are those relationships like? Are they healthy?
How about her friends? Does she have good, solid, long term friends with very low drama?

Tha answers to these questions can help us help you!


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## SunCMars

Araucaria said:


> My first instinct was to judge her and tell you not to "settle." 3 children from 3 different men, none of them her husband is a red flag. A tiger doesn't change its stripes.
> 
> But then I wondered, what do you have to bring to the table? What makes you so much better than she is?


Yes, three children from three different men. I did read that. I painted over that purposely.

The classic, "She 'be' loose", she 'be' trying to snag those men".

Why was she not on birth control, on self-control?

Both of these....good questions.

It sounds like she is, was...too trusting.

Yes, maybe too loose.

Now?

She has had her babies. Now she is out to enjoy life with a man, sounds like with you.

Yes, three children from three different men. I did read that. I painted over that purposely.

That shows me this:

She likes to be close to men, very close.
She enjoys sex.

She is done making babies.
She is ready 'now' to make love and have fun doing it.

She charged at life earlier, was not 'careful'.
Yes, she was loose. 

Because of three precious babies being born out of wedlock? Yes.
Because of her flings? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the duration of her relationships.

Loving men and sex is not always a bad thing.
It can be a bad thing if she cannot settle down with one man.
With her stringing each man on and on. Playing games with them.
With men who are serious, not pogo-stick men. 

Stealing their time, their sticky juice, their pride.

Can she be happy with one.....forever and a day?
With he, keeping her happy and satisfied?

She doing the same. 
She not looking over his shoulder and looking for someone else...
She doing so, while she crushes your lips with hers.
She not looking for the next set of lips to nibble, to bite.

If you do not want children of your own with her, good. 
The decision is easier.
If she has her tubes tied and her mind tied to you, good.

The fact that she knows men find her less than desirable because of the multi-daddy situation shows {late regret} learned from her.
It shows she has been spurned before.

It shows that she has been feted, bedded and dumped before. 
No man wanting to take on the burden of three babies, soon to be going out in the world, maybe to college.
Who is going to pay for their higher education schooling?

Give her time. Give this relationship time.
The sex with her is good. She knows how to please a man.

Does she know how to please a first time husband?
She can hold his sexual attention, she is a fun person to be around. That is good.

Can you hold her attention, keep it from wandering.
I think this is likely the case, she has settled down, wants to settle down.

Her freedom days being behind her.
We can only hope that any new boredom felt does not transform into loose feet, loose lips.

I say this because marriage is going to be new to her also.

Give her a chance.....
If you love this women.
She sounds that...easy to love.

Then again.....
Yes, then again.

She finally found a good man.
She will do anything, act perfect to win him, keep him.
Dunno, just dunno.

Late age trust is fleeting.
Life burned its bridge.
Love never made it across, never it meeting.


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## Mr.Married

I didn't read the post above or much of yours as I have trouble with the long stuff but I'll throw this one tidbit out.

Do you understand your not perfect to her and she could also be "on the settle"?


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## BigToe

mediocremichael said:


> The judgement comes from her having 3 children from 3 men and the choices associated with it. She has explained her past to me, in detail. My friends and family do not know the details, so maybe they shouldn’t be voicing an opinion at all. I don’t think she is a bad person, at all. I have had is suggested to me that she is overcompensating and this isn’t the real her.


I think you should stop looking for others to bless a potential partner for you. The more opinions you seek, the more confused you are going to get because YOU WANT HER. For all the talk about her choices, YOU made a pretty crappy choice in your own life didn't you. Got an illegitimate son out of it. Did you think that one was perfect? Stop looking for perfection and look for what feels right to YOU. Not what your family feels is right for you, not what your friends feel is right for you, and not what this forum feels is right for you. Based upon your own words written to this forum, I believe you feel she is right for you. You don't see this??? If you love her, which it sure sounds to me like you do, and if she loves you, everything else will fall into place. I think you were correct to be concerned about three children from three fathers initially, but if she has justified these decisions to YOU satisfactorily (and you are the ONLY person she needs to justify it to) and you can accept her reasons then that is ALL that matters. 



mediocremichael said:


> She doesn’t often say negative things about herself. I don’t think she had low self worth or self esteem. I mentioned some things she has said because it was on my mind, but she doesn’t regularly say things like that.
> 
> I am guessing that in a general, not specifically to me, sense she would be more appealing had she aborted or chose adoption. On a quick glance, people wouldn’t know and wouldn’t automatically judge. I think all 3 are hard choices and have their own consequences. I can’t say how I would feel had she chooses adoption or abortion, because she didn’t and there is no way for me to truly know. There wouldn’t be children in the mix, but her decisions leading up to each pregnancy would have been the same.


She didn't abort or adopt, and doesn't beat herself up about her decisions. What's that tell you? It tells me she's a strong woman, a survivor, someone that doesn't run away from her problems. Sounds like she won't be a fair weather wife but a wife that will fight for her marriage when problems come into it. That's the kind of woman I would want.



mediocremichael said:


> Right now, today, I’m not ready to be a step-dad. I need more time with her kids. I have only spent chunks of time with her children a handful of times. We do have more times planned. When I feel unsure about the relationship I second guess spending time with her kids, but I need to spend time with her kids to ease some of the uncertainty. I won’t know if I can handle being a step-dad, unless I jump into it rather than dip my pinky in.


Fair enough and that is good rational thinking. However, if you are afraid of starting out with three children as a new father, why in the hell are you talking to this woman about having one of your own with her? Why are you talking about things like, to have a wedding or not? Do you not realize you are setting expectations that you may not be able to live up to? Do me a favor, don't lead this girl on...and don't lead those kids on. Don't talk about the future with this woman until you are comfortable with her kids in the present. Her children are young. If you cannot accept them as your own when you think about marrying this woman you need to walk away now. Have you considered adopting them if the birth fathers gave up their rights? THIS is the biggest issue you have to face and you have to make the right decision for those kids as well. Absent adoption, for sure you will be inheriting all the problems associated with those kids between the mother and fathers. You won't be legally responsible, but you will have to listen to it, help your wife deal with it, and most certainly help pay legal fees associated with it. If you cannot accept this, if you cannot get to a point where you consider and treat those three kids AS YOUR OWN, walk away. No need to feel guilty, this is not a trivial issue and is certainly life altering. Again, it's all about YOU and what you want. Nobody will have the magic answer for you, it has to come from within.


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## SunCMars

Of all the Angels, Michael was the least mediocre.

Why this name, this Avatar?

Are you selling yourself short or are others?

Just Askin'




[THRD]


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## mediocremichael

Wolfman1968 said:


> Actually, I am going to disagree with you about this "judging" BS.
> 
> 
> It's common enough that a young couple or a young woman (in this case) would be careless and have an accidental pregnancy. This has been happening since time immemorial. What I see as a red flag is that after the FIRST child, apparently she learned nothing about birth control precautions or marriage so that she had TWO more pregnancies while not married (despite wanting marriage, as the OP posts). Once can be an accident. Three is an ingrained behavior pattern. That's not good. Especially in someone who apparently is intelligent enough to be working on a PhD career path.
> 
> 
> OP, I'd also caution you when so many people--your family, your friends--don't think she's right for you. We're not talking about one person not thinking you belong together, it is an across the board opinion. When the weight of opinion is so heavily learning to this one side, I would think that a prudent person would ask---what are they seeing that I am not? After all, the expression is, "Love is blind", and that might apply to you. You may THINK she's the perfect person because you're incapable of seeing issues that EVERYONE else who cares about you apparently see. You have to consider the possibility that you are just not being objective here.
> 
> 
> I interact with doctors and nurses every day in my line of work. I have a friend--a physician--who got involved with a nurse at his hospital. All his friends and co-workers who knew this nurse tried to warn him off, but in his words, "I thought I knew better than they did." She got pregnant shortly after their wedding, but within a year he ran across calculations she had done figuring out her alimony and child support amounts. They weren't having any problems he knew about---in short, he got played by a gold digger looking to get set up financially, just as all his friends and co-workers had warned. But he lost his objectivity, and thought he "knew better than everyone else". In reality, he didn't. And he isn't stupid or naïve in relationships--he was already a divorced father of two kids before he ever met this woman.
> 
> 
> I don't know your girlfriend. She may be great, she may not be. What I do know is that it is all too common for the person in the midst of the relationship to lose their objectivity. I also know that in matters of love, it is all too common for people to disregard the warnings of their friends and family, much to their own disadvantage. It is only wise to consider that a situation of lost objectivity may be happening to you, too.


This is probably as much detail as I will give. She has explained/justified everything to me and knows that she made poor choices. 

Her first pregnancy, at 15/16, was intended. She was not in a relationship with the father. A popular kid had interest in her until he got what he wanted: her virginity. She wanted to get pregnant (as much as a kid can at that age). 

She had a male best friend, from birth essentially, who supported her through teen pregnancy and parenthood. They transitioned into dating, which lasted a year. He broke up with her when going to college. They kept in touch and hooked up sometimes. They got back into a relationship a 4 years later, lasted a few months. Hooked up again after breaking up, she lied about birth control. She wanted a relationship with him, the feeling wasn’t mutual. 

Her third pregnancy was not intended. She was not in a relationship. A few dates in and a condom failed. 

(For the record, she has an IUD and we use condoms. No accidents, or "accidents", are going to happen.)

Having almost everyone in my circle suggesting that I don’t marry her is concerning to me. I know that they are trying to protect me from being hurt again, and themselves. Being in another bad marriage or tricked scares the living daylights out of me. My family and friends learned parts of her past before meeting her, so maybe they went into meeting her with preconceived notions. My judgement is admittedly not the best. I had no idea what my ex-wife was or was capable of. My friends and family liked her though so, go figure. It is a lot to consider and I am obviously no where near ready to make any steps to take our relationship further.


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## mediocremichael

Diana7 said:


> There is no such thing as perfect but there is perfect for you. I cant make out if you are not sure, or if the people you know are putting doubts in your mind. I feel that if you were 100% sure you would not care about what others say. When I met my now husband(divorced dad of 2 children aged 17 and 21), I wouldn't have cared what others said because I KNEW he was the one. He in turn became a good step dad to my three children(late teens and early 20's at that time), as they had no contact with their dad. He said that part of marrying me was being there for them. If you stay with her you are taking on a package, the children as well as her.
> Is your friend and families opinion based on the fact that she already has three children? That they have 3 different dads? That she isn't right for you character wise? That they can see things in her that you cant? Red flags?
> 
> It is a massive thing taking on a single mum of three children. There will be a lot of working out where you fit in and dealing with the other 2 dads as well. Living with them all wont be easy, especially with the teenager I suspect, and if he is a boy he almost certainly sees himself as the man of the home. They have always just had their mum, how will they react to a man being with them full time? Its a totally foreign concept to them. At this time they barely know you.
> Getting married is a perfectly reasonable request, if you have doubts about doing that then that is a worry as well.
> 
> Not sure if these are you own worries or others worries or a mixture of the two, but I am pretty sure that if you were 100% sure you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be concerned about what others think.
> 
> Having said all that she sounds like a lovely caring person. A good mum and lovely girlfriend. You are 35, you shouldn't be worrying about what your mum or anyone else thinks. Maybe you mum is worried that you will not have children and she will not have a grandchild again?
> 
> I would see what happens as you get to know the children. Its hard to see that you would find a woman who seems as nice, even if it does seem she has no idea about contraception!!! Only time will tell if this will work. Get to see how she is with her children. With her family. How her children act towards her. How she deals with the other dads. How the children react to you. Get to know them better and make an effort to talk to them and get to know them individually.
> I am guessing that in 6 months or so you will know one way or the other, but I do think its important that you communicate your concerns to her.


My friends and family opinions were formed before they met her. When I said she had 3 children they were already weary. Questions were asked and they learned the kids have different fathers, which quadrupled the weary. She was assumed to be a bad person and a “*****” before meeting her. The same box as my ex-wife has been placed into. No one has ever mentioned anything else against her. Just that it’s not worth the risk and not to be stupid. 

Something that I do struggle with is figuring out where I will fit in. I am not the father of these kids and they are old enough to know that. They have fathers, to varying degrees, and I’ve read that children don’t easily accept a step-parent. None of them have ever known their parents to be together, so there is that at least. I don’t think they will see me as having ruined their parents being together. We have talked about this worry. She doesn’t want me to let them step all over me. Though when I had to yell at and grab her 7 year old it felt wrong (chasing a ball that rolled onto a busy road with oncoming traffic). She didn’t see it that way at all, it’s something that I have to get use to. I want to stop seeing them as “her children” or “someone else’s kids”. I know that if we are to marry that I need to see them as my children. I have very little experience with kids, so it’s a big adjustment. 

I had these feelings when I first met her, and I think they have lingered around because of all the negative feedback from people in my circle. Some worries I would have regardless I’m sure. 

My mom wants grandchildren, and has none. She has asked if we would have kids, and the answer is yes we would have one. My mom loves all kids, and I know she would treat my GF’s kids as her own grandchildren. She has not met them. My GF is thinking maybe Christmas for my families dinner. There are other kids in the family in the same age ranges.


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## mediocremichael

Spicy said:


> Interesting post, and welcome to TAM!
> 
> I just had a couple of questions:
> 
> How much time do you spend with her in person in a typical week?
> Have you met her family? What are those relationships like? Are they healthy?
> How about her friends? Does she have good, solid, long term friends with very low drama?
> 
> Tha answers to these questions can help us help you!


We work together. We work in the same building but different floors and departments. We see each other at lunch most days. We start at the same time 3 days a week, and we go to work together. Outside of work, we see each other at least 1-2 times a week. Her 16 y/o wants to earn extra money and so she pays him to babysit sometimes. We have an overnight date every Wednesday. Her mom has been taking the kids every Wednesday for an overnight for years. Most weekends she spends a night at my house, as long as her kids are away. Between family and custody arrangements it usually works out. As I get to know her kids I spend more time with her, we’ve gone out for dinner, movies, zoo, theme park. 

I have met her family. She had a crappy childhood with parents who were controlling, and simultaneously didn’t give a crap. They are religious (GF and I are not) so there are things that I bite my tongue on. She says they are far better with her kids than they ever were with her, and loosened up over the years as she failed them, essentially. She isn’t close to her family, but they get along. I fall somewhere in between getting along with them and tolerating them. She feels the same. Her family had reservations about me not having kids, funny how that works out. 

She has a small group of close friends. 5, off the top of my head. She has had those friendships for about 5 years when she started working where we currently work. She didn’t have a lot of friends in high school and lost most of them after high school when people moved on. So probably close to 10 years without solid friendships.


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## mediocremichael

BigToe said:


> Fair enough and that is good rational thinking. However, if you are afraid of starting out with three children as a new father, why in the hell are you talking to this woman about having one of your own with her? Why are you talking about things like, to have a wedding or not? Do you not realize you are setting expectations that you may not be able to live up to? Do me a favor, don't lead this girl on...and don't lead those kids on. Don't talk about the future with this woman until you are comfortable with her kids in the present. Her children are young. If you cannot accept them as your own when you think about marrying this woman you need to walk away now. Have you considered adopting them if the birth fathers gave up their rights? THIS is the biggest issue you have to face and you have to make the right decision for those kids as well. Absent adoption, for sure you will be inheriting all the problems associated with those kids between the mother and fathers. You won't be legally responsible, but you will have to listen to it, help your wife deal with it, and most certainly help pay legal fees associated with it. If you cannot accept this, if you cannot get to a point where you consider and treat those three kids AS YOUR OWN, walk away. No need to feel guilty, this is not a trivial issue and is certainly life altering. Again, it's all about YOU and what you want. Nobody will have the magic answer for you, it has to come from within.


Am I not suppose to talk with her about the future? What we both want? If we want different things in life, that needs to be known now not later. I don’t think I am leading her on by talking to her about these things. I hope not. 

I know that if we marry her kids will become mine as well, just not legally. Her kids have fathers, adopting them isn’t something that has ever come up. They have fathers so I can’t see how that would be something to even consider. I will say that, whenever she has problems with one of the fathers she doesn’t talk to me about it. I know she keeps it to herself, and at some point I will have to deal with those problems as well. Does seeing her children as my own develop over time, or is that something that I should have automatically been feeling from the moment I met or even heard about them?


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## happyhusband0005

To me it sounds like you are happy in the relationship right now. Why do you need to rush it after 10 months. She has issues from her past but it sounds like she has beaten the odds and become a genuinely good person in spite of her past. I would just give it some time see how things go. Take things slow with the kids and baby daddies. In time what the future would be like will become more clear as you slowly get more involved.


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## Adelais

mediocremichael said:


> Her first pregnancy, at 15/16, was intended.* She was not in a relationship with the father*. A popular kid had interest in her until he got what he wanted: her virginity. *She wanted to get pregnant* (as much as a kid can at that age).
> 
> She had a male best friend, from birth essentially, who supported her through teen pregnancy and parenthood. They transitioned into dating, which lasted a year. He broke up with her when going to college. They kept in touch and hooked up sometimes. They got back into a relationship a 4 years later, lasted a few months. Hooked up again after breaking up, *she lied about birth control.* She wanted a relationship with him, the feeling wasn’t mutual.
> 
> *Her third pregnancy was not intended. She was not in a relationship. A few dates in and a condom failed. *
> 
> (For the record, she has an IUD and we use condoms. No accidents, or "accidents", are going to happen.)
> 
> Having almost everyone in my circle suggesting that I don’t marry her is concerning to me. I know that they are trying to protect me from being hurt again, and themselves. Being in another bad marriage or tricked scares the living daylights out of me. My family and friends learned parts of her past before meeting her, so maybe they went into meeting her with preconceived notions. My judgement is admittedly not the best. I had no idea what my ex-wife was or was capable of. My friends and family liked her though so, go figure. It is a lot to consider and I am obviously no where near ready to make any steps to take our relationship further.


She is a user of men, for pregnancy, and for sex. I do judge a woman with small children who keeps having casual sex with men. Where are the children while she is having sex? Seriously, she can't be a good mother when she is putting sex and men above her own children.

When you have sex with her, where are her children? In the other room? With a baby sitter? What kind of example is she to her 16 year old. Her younger children are old enough to notice, although they probably view her behavior as normal, since they have nothing to compare it to.

Add to that, she says she wants to have a 4th child with you. 4 kids, 4 different baby daddies.

I think you need to listen to your family and friends and stay away from her. She will bring trouble to your life when she gets what she wants.

And stop having sex with her. If she gets pregnant with your child, you will have to pay child support for 18+ years, depending on the state you live in.

Talking about getting her PhD? Talk is just that...talk. If she has another baby with you, already having 3, how is she going to find the time and finances to get that PhD? She is not living in reality, and she is drawing you down the Yellow Brick Road with her.

If you marry her, you will be back here in a couple of years posting about how miserable you are, and about new revelations into her character that are hurting you and your marriage.

Friendzone her. There are women there with less baggage and who have proven they are more stable.


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## sunsetmist

OK, now my concern is that something is/was missing in her life/psyche that twice she deliberately got pregnant. The 'holes in her soul' were so deep that she eschewed common sense for 'affection/attention.' She excels in living her life for others so that she will be liked. 

Is she wearing a mask? Maybe. Her personality rules her life--not reality. Be careful.


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## Bananapeel

Keep in mind that your family has your individual interests in mind when they are giving you advice, whereas you have your girlfriends best interest in mind when you choose not to listen. I won't give you any advice because you are an adult that has to live with the consequences of your own choices. I would personally have a lot of concern about a woman that has tricked multiple men into fatherhood because that is not a trait of an honest person or someone that wants to setup a good relationship dynamic for their children. Rather it is the trait of someone that is selfish, rash, and impulsive. People can easily hide who they are for six months or more of a relationship so she might still be on good behavior and not showing her true self. Are you in a hurry to get married to her and is there a problem with just dating her for another year or two and getting to know each other better before you decide to get married? Usually time will help clarify these questions.


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## EleGirl

mediocremichael said:


> Am I not suppose to talk with her about the future? What we both want? If we want different things in life, that needs to be known now not later. I don’t think I am leading her on by talking to her about these things. I hope not.
> 
> I know that if we marry her kids will become mine as well, just not legally. Her kids have fathers, adopting them isn’t something that has ever come up. They have fathers so I can’t see how that would be something to even consider. I will say that, whenever she has problems with one of the fathers she doesn’t talk to me about it. I know she keeps it to herself, and at some point I will have to deal with those problems as well. *Does seeing her children as my own develop over time, or is that something that I should have automatically been feeling from the moment I met or even heard about them?*


Feeling for her children will develop over time. it's not realistic that you would love them from day one.

I also disagree that you have to love them as your own. The truth is that they are not your own, they have fathers. They are also not infants. It would take them time to feel an attachment, or love, for you if they ever do. I way told by a therapist that it takes a blended family 5 years to actually become a connected family. 

The children are not choosing you, their mother is. They might not even want you to be in their life as it's a disruption to their status quo. Very often parents and step parents don't come to terms with this until the children pull make it very clear by acting out in very bad ways.

Can you tell that I am a step-parent? I raised my step children from ages 10 & 11 on. I have a son who was 10 when I married their father. They are no 29 and 32. Their father had full custody, but I was their full-time stepmother. To put it mildly, raising them was hell because they resented that their father married me. They resented that their mother abandoned them, but they were still not ready to accept someone else as their mother.

I love my step children, but I am not sure that I would do it again if I had the choice to go back in time. I think that they would have been better off without me in their lives. And I know that the last 18 years of my life would have been a lot less stressful had I not had them in my life. When they were in their early 20's both of them apologized to me for the hell they put me through. They both now say that they love me, but it was a long and hard road getting to that. Their mother still only uses them when she needs something. And I still have to deal with the fallout of the damage she has done to them.

You and she need to learn some basics about step parenting. Here's a link to a good book. There are several more on amazon.com that you might find helpful.

*Stepparenting: Becoming A Stepparent: A Blended Family Guide to: Parenting, Raising Children, Family Relationships and Step Families*

I'm not saying that you should walk away from her and her children. What I am saying is that step parenting is hard and very often has more problems than raising your own children. You need to go into it with your eyes wide open and with some knowledge on how to handle this.

You have only been dating this woman for 10 months. That's hardly enough time to get to know someone. What happens in relationships is that the first 18-24 months is the infatuation period. It's basic biology. When we are first with someone our brains pump out a lot of feel-good hormones like dopamine, oxytocin, etc. These cause a couple to have that giddy in-love feeling. Then after the 18-24 month timeframe, that brain stops the over production of the feel-good hormones and you go into a move mature from of love. A large percentage of relationships fail at this point. Why? Because during the infatuation period most people are on their best behavior and they see the other person through rose colored glasses. Once the feel-good is gone, people start stop being on their best behavior. So you start to see the person for whom they really are. And it's often not good.

Because of this, a couple should date for 18-24 months, and only then become engaged. Then after a years engagement marry. That gives both people time to see each other as you really are, with out all the feel-good chemicals clouding your judgement.

And in your case, there are 3 children involved. And they don't have the benefit of those feel-good chemicals to help them see you through rose colored glasses. You are going to have to build a relationship with them as well.


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## john117

"Talking about getting her PhD? Talk is just that...talk. If she has another baby with you, already having 3, how is she going to find the time and finances to get that PhD? She is not living in reality, and she is drawing you down the Yellow Brick Road with her."

Easiest thing ever. Our younger girl was born in the middle of the semester while both parents were PhD students...


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## SunCMars

Araucaria said:


> She is a user of men, for pregnancy, and for sex. I do judge a woman with small children who keeps having casual sex with men. Where are the children while she is having sex? Seriously, she can't be a good mother when she is putting sex and men above her own children.
> 
> Friendzone her. There are women there with less baggage and who have proven they are more stable.


Good Grief this is harsh advice.

What is the woman supposed to do, be chaste until her children leave the house?

Not enjoy the loving touch of a man for years upon years.

I agree, having many casual hookups is not a good thing.

But, she is looking for something more from OP. She wants a permanent relationship, not a short term sex spree with him and others concurrently.

I say tell her that you want to maintain the relationship but not move in together right away.

I would wait another six months before thinking about getting engaged.

*Yes, I would insist on exclusivity from her.*
In fact, she would likely see that as a positive sign from you. 

Tell her you want to remain exclusive. Gage her response.

Don't dump her. From a very rocky start she has made amends.

Being engaged can last a few years.


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## SunCMars

On baggage....

Children are not baggage.
......................................................................................

OK..
If they act that way. that is a horse of a different color.
They will then be under-footy, Sooty Gray.


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## 3Xnocharm

mediocremichael said:


> Having almost everyone in my circle suggesting that I don’t marry her is concerning to me. I know that they are trying to protect me from being hurt again, and themselves. Being in another bad marriage or tricked scares the living daylights out of me. My family and friends learned parts of her past before meeting her, so maybe they went into meeting her with preconceived notions. My judgement is admittedly not the best. I had no idea what my ex-wife was or was capable of. My friends and family liked her though so, go figure. It is a lot to consider and I am obviously no where near ready to make any steps to take our relationship further.


I think it is very smart of you to consider the views of those in your life who love you and who you trust. Love can make us really stupid, and blind us to a lot of bad. You are only 10 months in, my suggestion would be to just give her some time, and try and look at the relationship through new eyes. Spend more time with her kids and get to know them. Observe how she handles their fathers. Her past of getting pregnant on purpose is a very serious red flag... good for her for being honest about it though, at least. BTW do you have confirmation of that IUD she claims to have?? 

You are lucky to have people in your life speaking up. I wish my people had done that for me in the past.


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## MEM2020

MM,

A couple observations related to this situation:
1. You have chosen to describe this situation without any comments on finance
2. That makes it impossible to have a meaningful opinion

It is one thing to raise three other men’s children. Quite another to rai$e them. You say nothing about the bio fathers payment of child support. That partly goes to motive.

Is she under financial duress? Are you the solution to a financially stressful situation?

You are the only one who is qualified to assess her motive. 

You shared a long list of useful info, but left out your dynamic with her. Do you two have fun together? 

The one thing that jumps out at me is this. You describe her as sort of perfect. And yet - three other guys have passed on her. The first guy - was too young. But the other two? Especially the one you like - you haven’t asked him why he passed. 






mediocremichael said:


> This is probably as much detail as I will give. She has explained/justified everything to me and knows that she made poor choices.
> 
> Her first pregnancy, at 15/16, was intended. She was not in a relationship with the father. A popular kid had interest in her until he got what he wanted: her virginity. She wanted to get pregnant (as much as a kid can at that age).
> 
> She had a male best friend, from birth essentially, who supported her through teen pregnancy and parenthood. They transitioned into dating, which lasted a year. He broke up with her when going to college. They kept in touch and hooked up sometimes. They got back into a relationship a 4 years later, lasted a few months. Hooked up again after breaking up, she lied about birth control. She wanted a relationship with him, the feeling wasn’t mutual.
> 
> Her third pregnancy was not intended. She was not in a relationship. A few dates in and a condom failed.
> 
> (For the record, she has an IUD and we use condoms. No accidents, or "accidents", are going to happen.)
> 
> Having almost everyone in my circle suggesting that I don’t marry her is concerning to me. I know that they are trying to protect me from being hurt again, and themselves. Being in another bad marriage or tricked scares the living daylights out of me. My family and friends learned parts of her past before meeting her, so maybe they went into meeting her with preconceived notions. My judgement is admittedly not the best. I had no idea what my ex-wife was or was capable of. My friends and family liked her though so, go figure. It is a lot to consider and I am obviously no where near ready to make any steps to take our relationship further.


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## BruceBanner

mediocremichael said:


> right now they are trying to protect me from another mistake.


Learn how to protect yourself. Get a prenup and make a DNA test a requirement for getting married in the event that she is pregnant.


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## Violet28

mediocremichael said:


> I will say that, whenever she has problems with one of the fathers she doesn’t talk to me about it. I know she keeps it to herself, and at some point I will have to deal with those problems as well. Does seeing her children as my own develop over time, or is that something that I should have automatically been feeling from the moment I met or even heard about them?


You don't have to make this decision today. Spend more time with her and the kids. Bring her around your family and friends so they can get to know her better, bring the kids too. I think it would take time to feel close to the kids, especially if they aren't around that much.


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## BigToe

mediocremichael said:


> Am I not suppose to talk with her about the future? What we both want? If we want different things in life, that needs to be known now not later. I don’t think I am leading her on by talking to her about these things. I hope not.
> 
> I know that if we marry her kids will become mine as well, just not legally. Her kids have fathers, adopting them isn’t something that has ever come up. They have fathers so I can’t see how that would be something to even consider. I will say that, whenever she has problems with one of the fathers she doesn’t talk to me about it. I know she keeps it to herself, and at some point I will have to deal with those problems as well. Does seeing her children as my own develop over time, or is that something that I should have automatically been feeling from the moment I met or even heard about them?


My response, is no you shouldn't be talking with her about the future in that way. The reason is because by your own words you are not ready to become a step-father and have not spent enough time with the children. You can't separate the kids from her, so there's a huge risk in talking about your own children, marriage, and a life happily ever after when you aren't ready to accept the current package as it stands today. There's also another part of it I see that is troubling. I am SURE this woman does not know how your family and friends feel about her, nor that you are discussing particulars about her life with anonymous people in an online forum. How do you think she would feel if she knew you were questioning her being perfect enough, questioning your readiness to be a step-dad to her children, and having discussions about it with family, friends, and even strangers on the Internet. So talking with her about the future in terms of marriage and children when you obviously aren't sure she is the right one strikes me as quite unfair to her. Of course, I'm assuming she thinks you ARE the right one and that's why she's talking to you about those things.


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## Spicy

Take your time with her. Value your families opinions, but give them a full chance to get to know her. Them starting off knowing her dirty laundry, before they even had a chance to form an opinion is rough. Start including them with her and her children as much as possible. See what they think of her in another six months. Rent a cabin, and go stay for the weekend with you parents and her and her kids etc. 

People make “mistakes”, sometimes even a few times. Mine may not have been this serious, but I’ve done some dumb things in my day. 

My perspective is this: 
My grandmother was married two times, had FOUR kids, by two different men.
My grandpa had been married two times, and had no kids.
They met, fell in love, married, and spent 45 years happily married.

Thank goodness he could see beyond her past. He took on a big responsibility, but he also gained a pretty amazing family, and we gained the most cherished man in our lives. If she is as great as you feel she is, you might have found “the one”, even if the packaging isn’t ideal. I wish you all the absolute best!


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## notmyrealname4

At 10 months in, you should be crazy about her. The fact that you are having these doubts;even though suggested by your family, shows that you are not certain about this lady in the long run.


How are you going to pay for a wedding, her Phd, another baby, and the size of house you will need to have four kids? What will your days look like while you help raise her kids, raise your own newborn, take care of the house and cooking etc. etc.; while she studies for her degree?

You said one of the children's father is a real jerk. He will be in your life as long as you are married to her. And so will the other guys. Are you okay with having various exes in and out of your life; even if it isn't all the time.

I had a stepfather, he was sick of his role in about 5 years. He pretty much abdicated any responsibility to me. I'll tell you, that's real hurtful for a kid.

I vote NO. But in the end, you have to make this decision for yourself. I'm make it sooner rather than later. And next time, find out fairly soon if a woman has children, and break up a lot sooner.

Good luck.


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## Rowan

OP, I think you're rushing this relationship too much. Whether that rush is coming from her or from you I'm not sure, but it's a bad idea. Ten months isn't nearly long enough to know who a prospective partner _really_ is. People are usually on their best behavior for at least the first year or two of a new relationship, sometimes longer. It can take quite a while for new partners to relax enough to be their true selves with one another on a consistent basis. You both just need to slow your roll. 

I would absolutely give it at least 2-3 years before becoming engaged, then another several months to a year before marriage. Meet and interact with her children, learn what their family dynamics are actually like in daily practice. Meet her family of origin, figure out what was going on in her home life could have led an apparently intelligent 15 year old to such desperation that she actively sought out teen pregnancy. What has she done - if anything - to overcome whatever was going on with her that led her to such poor choices, rectify her dysfunctional thinking, and make real changes to her character and psyche? If you do eventually become engaged, see how she behaves while planning that wedding she wants, whether she's calm and efficient in the face of the stress or turns into a raging bridezilla. 

Get to know more about her over time so that you can make an honest and clear-eyed assessment about whether she - and her children - are actually compatible with you and are really people you want to spend the rest of your life with. At the same time, she should be evaluating whether or not the real you, once you've relaxed and are no longer careful to be on your best behavior all the time, is someone she feels is really compatible with her, her children, and what she wants for the rest of her life.


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## 2ntnuf

mediocremichael said:


> My friends and family opinions were formed before they met her. When I said she had 3 children they were already weary. Questions were asked and they learned the kids have different fathers, which quadrupled the weary. She was assumed to be a bad person and a “*****” before meeting her. The same box as my ex-wife has been placed into. No one has ever mentioned anything else against her. Just that it’s not worth the risk and not to be stupid.
> 
> Something that I do struggle with is figuring out where I will fit in. I am not the father of these kids and they are old enough to know that. They have fathers, to varying degrees, and I’ve read that children don’t easily accept a step-parent. None of them have ever known their parents to be together, so there is that at least. I don’t think they will see me as having ruined their parents being together. We have talked about this worry. She doesn’t want me to let them step all over me. Though when I had to yell at and grab her 7 year old it felt wrong (chasing a ball that rolled onto a busy road with oncoming traffic). She didn’t see it that way at all, it’s something that I have to get use to. I want to stop seeing them as “her children” or “someone else’s kids”. I know that if we are to marry that I need to see them as my children. I have very little experience with kids, so it’s a big adjustment.
> 
> I had these feelings when I first met her, and I think they have lingered around because of all the negative feedback from people in my circle. Some worries I would have regardless I’m sure.
> 
> My mom wants grandchildren, and has none. She has asked if we would have kids, and the answer is yes we would have one. My mom loves all kids, and I know she would treat my GF’s kids as her own grandchildren. She has not met them. My GF is thinking maybe Christmas for my families dinner. There are other kids in the family in the same age ranges.




It's a tough gig. You may be fine with it. Who knows? 

She won't have a lot of time for you. You may end up watching the children while she is working on a degree. You might rarely have sex, since she is working on her career and taking care of children and working. 

You haven't seen her that much, I think you said. You have rarely seen the children and it's been, more or less, in passing. 

When do you suppose you will be alone to have sex? 

I could be wrong. I think it would be easier to start your own family, but I don't know either of you.


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