# Studying my wife



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

As you may or may not know, for the last couple years I have really been trying to figure out my wife in regards to sex. I have recorded when we have sex and rate it on a scale of 1 - 5. I keep track of her periods and what dates correspond to the dates and quality of sex. This is just a small part of what I do.

Also, if you may remember, in the past I have had some anger issues. I have started to see a trend as to why I get angry.
Once a month or so (sometimes related to her period) my wife starts saying stupid, inflammatory, out of character things to me. For example, this past weekend we're walking up to our 16 year old daughters lacrosse game and I put on some ear muffs. She looks at me and says "you look so old." I would NEVER say that to my wife. I kind of laughed it off and went to the game. Later that night I was playing with her hugging and teasing with some sex talk, hoping to get a BJ because she's on her period and she gets all upset telling me how annoying I am and that all I do is talk about sex. (Not true at all, just mentioned something only that day)

Instead of getting upset, I simply let her stew (for whatever reason) and just thought about why she gets like this. For the next few days I just let her be. She was clearly upset, cleaning without stop, has not touched me for days and just goes around all day talking small talk.

You might think I'm being passive aggressive, but I'm really not trying to do that. I'm just giving her space and acting in a way that will not piss her off. However, if I mention anything about what she said, she will turn it on me and try to get me upset. Arguing with her is completely pointless. I have tried in the past 23 years and I get nowhere. So, I just give her space. As the days go by, she will NOT touch me at all. Finally, we have sex and it's wonderful, steamy, passionate, like the first time kind of sex.

I'm not complaining about the sex but it's almost as if she needs to play this little game, pushing me to the edge to see if I get upset. If I don't get upset and survive her PA mood, I get awesome sex. If I get upset, it all crumbles to the ground and I have to build up her trust again.

Does this sound strange to anyone but me??


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No. She's insecure and testing you to see if you can handle her. She wants you to handle yourself well when she is like this. She knows she is like this and doesn't really care to change. She only wants you to deal with it in a way that is secure and strong. I assume you haven't in the past.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> No. She's insecure and testing you to see if you can handle her. She wants you to handle yourself well when she is like this. She knows she is like this and doesn't really care to change. She only wants you to deal with it in a way that is secure and strong. I assume you haven't in the past.


We've known each other for 25 years, needless to say, she knows how to push my buttons. In the past, I would have gotten upset, especially when she turns everything on me, even if I know she has done something. It's like being in a police interrogation and after 8 hours you confess, even if you didn't do it, they convince you that you did. (Therefore no arguing)

Lately, I have survived her testing. However, the more I survive, the harder the next one is, but if I survive, the sex keeps getting better and better. The problem is, it's very difficult for me because I don't like to play games and I have to take a step back and try to figure out what's going on.
Why does she need this?? When she does this sort of thing and I back away, she will ABSOLUTELY not touch me, not even a finger, for DAYS, until we have sex.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

UMP said:


> We've known each other for 25 years, needless to say, she knows how to push my buttons. In the past, I would have gotten upset, especially when she turns everything on me, even if I know she has done something. It's like being in a police interrogation and after 8 hours you confess, even if you didn't do it, they convince you that you did. (Therefore no arguing)
> 
> Lately, I have survived her testing. However, the more I survive, the harder the next one is, but if I survive, the sex keeps getting better and better. The problem is, it's very difficult for me because I don't like to play games and I have to take a step back and try to figure out what's going on.
> Why does she need this?? When she does this sort of thing and I back away, she will ABSOLUTELY not touch me, not even a finger, for DAYS, until we have sex.


She needs it because she is afraid of you. She doesn't really trust you because of past hurts from how you've handled yourself when she has been like this. I doubt she thinks she has done anything wrong and it really doesn't read like she is abnormal. 

Also, she does not think this is a game, not at all. It's deadly serious to your relationship with her. If you fail, you can guess how this will end. 

Learn how to communicate with her. Learn how to be less emotional with her at these times. I'm guessing someone will have some books for you to read. I'd just say IC and practice with her. Ultimately, it's your choice. I don't think you are weak, by the way. I just think you don't realise these are not attacks on you personally, even when they feel like it. It's perspective, to some extent.

Edit: When you do find yourself responding instead of reacting, you will have an opportunity to figure out with the help of a professional, if there is anything wrong with her, but I don't see it with the information provided so far. ee.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> She needs it because she is afraid of you. She doesn't really trust you because of past hurts from how you've handled yourself when she has been like this. I doubt she thinks she has done anything wrong and it really doesn't read like she is abnormal.
> 
> Also, she does not think this is a game, not at all. It's deadly serious to your relationship with her. If you fail, you can guess how this will end.
> 
> ...


I'm not failing at all. In fact, I've handled it quit well. It's just hard and mostly confusing to me. If what you've said is correct, and I handle it well, they should subside in time.

As far as push/pull BPD, I don't think so. Most of the time she is loving, kind and nice. She had a good childhood and no abuse.

Once a month or so, she starts to push my buttons, saying weird things out of the blue. If I don't react negatively, which is now what I have been doing, she stews for days until we have primal sex.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tdwal said:


> You are correct it is driven by fear. This will not go away, I have experienced it the whole of my marriage. All you can do is learn to communicate with her in a non threatening way.


I won't say you are wrong, but I've read things like this so many times and have experienced them in my first marriage. I do think she was damaged, but she was violent with me in language and physically. I didn't handle it well, but that's where my suggestion comes from. I'd think it would take much more than a crap test every time she feels insecure or has a tummy ache to be diagnosed with something like that. I'm no doctor either, so I will concede to your thinking. I just don't want UMP to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". I don't know what he has attempted in the past either, and I don't mean to blame you, UMP, not at all.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

tdwal said:


> Call it what you want, its push pull. It will get worse the older she gets. Do you know if she was sexually abused as a child?


Good grief, if she was BPD, this behavior would happen more than once a month.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> Good grief, if she was BPD, this behavior would happen more than once a month.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. She has no abuse, parents were great and still married.

As far as I can see, she is trying to get me upset or at least testing to see if she can trust that I WON'T get upset. Sometimes the things she says are very hurtful and out of the blue, with nothing from me causing her to say such things.

I'm learning to just brush it off. Me posting here gives me information so that I don't think I'm going crazy.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

So, every month, she gets real moody and pushes your buttons by saying insulting things. If you do react negatively and pout or complain, she will cut you off. On the other hand, if you ignore her insults and just go about your business, she goes into passive aggressive mode until you have sex.

Is this an accurate summation?

If so, it's damned if you do, and damned if you don't, except that the first damned is mush worst than the second. The second damned she eventually comes around.

How exactly the the transition occur? I mean, when she goes into her PA mode after getting moody and you don't react, eventually you invite her to bed and have passionate sex? How does that occur? This is the intriguing part.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

tdwal said:


> I didnt say she was BPD, I said its a BPD tendency. You can have this without being declared BPD but the best information for it is in the BPD literature.


It also could be a myriad of things. PMS, perimenopause, or just a plain old sh!t test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

One thing that happened last summer may help you guys understand her. 
She went on vacation with the kids and my parents to the Bahamas. I stayed home and worked on the farm. To make a long story short, I went to a bar restaurant and was hit on by two supermodel bar tenders and another girl. As best as I can remember, I had two drinks but was COMPLETELY floored until 2:30am. I could not even drive. I think someone put something in my drink. I danced with one of the girls and took a cab home. (nothing else)

I immediately called my wife at 3:00am and told her what happened to apologize. When she got home from the Bahamas she f$cked me like I've never been f$cked in my life. It's as if she needs some sort of conflict to get the most out of sex. I don't know.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> It also could be a myriad of things. PMS, perimenopause, or just a plain old sh!t test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe so, BUT she will NEVER admit she has done ANYTHING wrong. I cannot talk about it, at all. It drives me crazy.
If I told her, "honey, I think you're acting a little strange because you're on your period", she would grab a dish and smash it over my head! (not really, but boy would she be pissed!)


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Do you notice a pattern that indicates how emotionally close you are relative to her emotional closeness? When you are too "warm" she may feel crowded, to far away emotionally she feels anxious. Can you ID a comfortable zone for you both. 

This course charting must stress you out enormously. Would you be open to not keeping a detailed record but becoming more independent from your wife. Take up hobbies that you enjoy, go out on your own for some enjoyed activity, have independent things to do. 

Take care of you. Let her come to you. Sounds like she loves you and finds you sexually attractive. She may need to see you as a strong man with choices who chooses her. Not so much a man who needs her. What do you think?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

tdwal said:


> So is there good information under those subjects about this behavior? Are you trying to help him resolve this or just saying it could be anything?


Plenty of information about all three. Google is your friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Do you notice a pattern that indicates how emotionally close you are relative to her emotional closeness? When you are too "warm" she may feel crowded, to far away emotionally she feels anxious. Can you ID a comfortable zone for you both.
> 
> This course charting must stress you out enormously. Would you be open to not keeping a detailed record but becoming more independent from your wife. Take up hobbies that you enjoy, go out on your own for some enjoyed activity, have independent things to do.
> 
> Take care of you. Let her come to you. Sounds like she loves you and finds you sexually attractive. She may need to see you as a strong man with choices who chooses her. Not so much a man who needs her. What do you think?


Every time she acts like this, I simply give her space. I go work out, or do something that needs to be done. I live on a farm, so I ALWAYS have something to do. If I stay calm, she does come to me. Then we have sex a couple times a week, we're close as can be and then BAM, she starts hitting me with this weird stuff and I back off until she comes back. 

Nothing is EVER said about what just occurred. It's as if it never happened in the first place.

It's as if she NEEDS this to take place. It's almost like the change of seasons. If you want spring you MUST go through winter to get there.

I used to race cars as a hobby, but stopped 12 years ago after a very bad accident. With out fail, the day before I left for the track for three days, she would bang me like it was the last time. Maybe I should start back up.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Have you highlighted this pattern that you notice to her? Perhaps in the midst of a "good stretch," you can sit down, have a talk and spell out what you have noticed, that you don't particularly care for it and what you will do when it happens again.

She can't change her patterns if she's not aware of them. Plus, when it happens next, you can calmly say "Remember when we talked about your unexplainable behavior patterns. Well, it's happening again. I'm going out to milk the cows. See ya!"

Convey that she's engaging in unappealing behavior, that you can handle it yet still don't particularly care for it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Have you highlighted this pattern that you notice to her? Perhaps in the midst of a "good stretch," you can sit down, have a talk and spell out what you have noticed, that you don't particularly care for it and what you will do when it happens again.
> 
> She can't change her patterns if she's not aware of them. Plus, when it happens next, you can calmly say "Remember when we talked about your unexplainable behavior patterns. Well, it's happening again. I'm going out to milk the cows. See ya!"
> 
> Convey that she's engaging in unappealing behavior, that you can handle it yet still don't particularly care for it.


I think she knows exactly what she is doing. That's the part that really pisses me off. She tries to get me upset to see if I'm strong enough to handle her shiit, WITHOUT getting mad.
That's what she wants or likes or something like that.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

UMP said:


> I think she knows exactly what she is doing. That's the part that really pisses me off. She tries to get me upset to see if I'm strong enough to handle her shiit, WITHOUT getting mad.
> That's what she wants or likes or something like that.


Why??? do you think she does it? I think we need some ladies input here.

I think one poster said something about she doesn't feel safe.

So she does this to feel safer, meaning if you pass her shet test she feels safer because...........

Really, after many years?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> Why??? do you think she does it? I think we need some ladies input here.
> 
> I think one poster said something about she doesn't feel safe.
> 
> ...


I don't know. Yes, been married 23 years and it seems the better I handle it, the worse she gets. Never touched my wife in anger, no reason for her to not feel "safe." Although, in the past, I have screamed in confused anger. Never again, God willing.

In this latest episode, instead of getting upset, I calmly tried to figure things out. I did not do anything to cause her mood. She just does it. If I don't get upset, she stays far away from me emotionally and will not touch me for days until we have sex.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> It also could be a myriad of things. PMS, perimenopause, or just a plain old sh!t test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

It sounds like a hormonal issue, as it coincides with her cycles. When I stopped breastfeeding, my hormones went a bit crazy. It was similar symptoms to perimenopause, with hot flashes, wild mood swings, tender breasts, fatigue, trouble sleeping, and so on. You don't have to have all the symptoms to have it be hormonal. There are certain supplements that can help regulate hormones, if you want to look into it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It sounds like a hormonal issue, as it coincides with her cycles. When I stopped breastfeeding, my hormones went a bit crazy. It was similar symptoms to perimenopause, with hot flashes, wild mood swings, tender breasts, fatigue, trouble sleeping, and so on. You don't have to have all the symptoms to have it be hormonal. There are certain supplements that can help regulate hormones, if you want to look into it.


She is getting close to menopause. She is 49. The part that is difficult for me is that when she is in these moods, it's as if she's another different person that I don't know.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

That's all going to settle down when she finally gets to menopause after a year of no cycles. She will be somewhat different. You are almost through it.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It sounds like a hormonal issue, as it coincides with her cycles. When I stopped breastfeeding, my hormones went a bit crazy. It was similar symptoms to perimenopause, with hot flashes, wild mood swings, tender breasts, fatigue, trouble sleeping, and so on. You don't have to have all the symptoms to have it be hormonal. There are certain supplements that can help regulate hormones, if you want to look into it.


I also think it sounds VERY hormonal. I watched my dear mom go through it for years. When I was a teenager, the household would suddenly go silent for days. The tension in the air was as thick as pea soup. My mom wouldn't talk to my dad at all, and if we had to ask a question, all we got was a very short, terse response, or no response at all. As a naive kid, I didn't know what the heck was going on, but years later I gave it a lot of thought and described it to my wife and she said definitely hormones. I know this may have little to do with you situation, but does sound similar. I can identify.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

UMP said:


> She is getting close to menopause. She is 49. The part that is difficult for me is that when she is in these moods, it's as if she's another different person that I don't know.


Hormones can do that and it might make her feel like a different person too, very out of control. There were days in my cycle were I did not feel like myself at all. I had this anger/rage that I can't explain and at the time, felt very little control over. It took a couple cycles to even realize how bad it was and it honestly scared me. I can't take hormonal medications, so I had to look for other ways to regulate hormones. Now months later, I feel so much more like myself and feel a lot better. I do think looking into supplements can really help.

Does she have any other symptoms?

If you don't think she will handle you talking to her very well, is there another woman she can talk to about this? Someone who can help her see this issue and look for ways to help? I doubt my parents ever talked about these things, but my mom would open up to her sisters about it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> Hormones can do that and it might make her feel like a different person too, very out of control. There were days in my cycle were I did not feel like myself at all. I had this anger/rage that I can't explain and at the time, felt very little control over. It took a couple cycles to even realize how bad it was and it honestly scared me. I can't take hormonal medications, so I had to look for other ways to regulate hormones. Now months later, I feel so much more like myself and feel a lot better. I do think looking into supplements can really help.
> 
> Does she have any other symptoms?
> 
> If you don't think she will handle you talking to her very well, is there another woman she can talk to about this? Someone who can help her see this issue and look for ways to help? I doubt my parents ever talked about these things, but my mom would open up to her sisters about it.


I cannot bring it up. If I do, she will say it's my fault, some how. I just wait till it dies down and then have sex. Since Friday night, no touch whatsoever, small talk, peck goodbye, peck hello. This will last till Tuesday or Wednesday, then she'll smile at me, I'll say let's have sex and it will all be over......till next time.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

UMP said:


> I cannot bring it up. If I do, she will say it's my fault, some how. I just wait till it dies down and then have sex. Since Friday night, no touch whatsoever, small talk, peck goodbye, peck hello. This will last till Tuesday or Wednesday, then she'll smile at me, I'll say let's have sex and it will all be over......till next time.


Does she have a sister or someone else she can talk to? 

Her behavior is strange, but I'm wondering if she'll open up to someone else that can give you more insight and help her move past this. The other person can bring up the topic of hormonal issues and see how it goes. She may not respond well to you, but may respond better to someone else.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I wonder, if she simply testing you to see if those old anger issues come back. And when they do not, you stay calm and leave her alone, then : first) she finds it comforting and re-assuing, 2) she finds this new you, strong and calm, as very , very attractive. 

Becuase we women, like men like this, strong and calm. Yellers are not sexually attractive to us....

Edit: just thought of third reason: she knows she's been acting s..y towards you for whatever reason she does not seem to control, and is very appreciative that you let it go. Now she loves you even more. I've noticed that dynamic wiht my anger prone husband. If I get out his way, let him out from far away and I just go doing my stuff, he comes back later very appreciative of that, that I gave him space, when he was not in his best.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think you should stop dancing around these issues and bring it up when it happens.

It is simply a habit for her now, but you can break that habit by refusing to allow it anymore.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I wonder, if she simply testing you to see if those old anger issues come back. And when they do not, you stay calm and leave her alone, then : first) she finds it comforting and re-assuing, 2) she finds this new you, strong and calm, as very , very attractive.
> 
> Becuase we women, like men like this, strong and calm. Yellers are not sexually attractive to us....
> 
> Edit: just thought of third reason: she knows she's been acting s..y towards you for whatever reason she does not seem to control, and is very appreciative that you let it go. Now she loves you even more. I've noticed that dynamic wiht my anger prone husband. If I get out his way, let him out from far away and I just go doing my stuff, he comes back later very appreciative of that, that I gave him space, when he was not in his best.


Very astute observations. :iagree:


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Be interesting to hear jld's take on the situation. Maybe your wife would benefit from hormone therapy?

The pattern of behavior sounds like PMS.

Your wife never admits to being wrong. She's not the only one. Not good for your children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

If this appears to be a cyclical pattern where she needs conflict to reset things, what's the downside? She says something stupid and you have the risk of being upset by it and ruining things true--but what if when she calls you a moron for loading the dishwasher wrong you just view it as her strange form of foreplay? Sure it's crazy, but if you ulitimately know that it's heading somewhere good, you're less likely to get mad about it--right?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Be interesting to hear jld's take on the situation. Maybe your wife would benefit from hormone therapy?
> 
> The pattern of behavior sounds like PMS.
> 
> ...


I was also thinking JLD would have some good input on this.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

So Dr Jekill throes you a bone - sex - after the emotional vampire Ms Hyde leaves her body in order to keep you from leaving her for good? Never a dull moment.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

UMP said:


> Every time she acts like this, I simply give her space. I go work out, or do something that needs to be done. I live on a farm, so I ALWAYS have something to do. If I stay calm, she does come to me. Then we have sex a couple times a week, we're close as can be and then BAM, she starts hitting me with this weird stuff and I back off until she comes back.
> 
> Nothing is EVER said about what just occurred. It's as if it never happened in the first place.
> 
> ...


UMP you may be crowding her too much when things are good. Try maintaining a certain level of independence even when things are going well. Establish an exercise routine that fulfills your goals that is not tied to your wife's state of mind. Give her roughly the same amount of space most of the time adjusting when necessary but never crowd or get too close. Somewhere between too much and too little. You can probably figure out where that is.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Be interesting to hear jld's take on the situation. Maybe your wife would benefit from hormone therapy?
> 
> The pattern of behavior sounds like PMS.
> 
> ...


I ended the passive aggression last night. I calmly told her what had happened and why I was letting her be. As I anticipated, she laughed at me saying I was the one with a problem. I again, calmly explained my reasoning and after about 10 minutes she had to agree. (not really agree, but at least acquiesced) We agreed to tell each other immediately when things like this pop up.

The only problem I have with this is that I've been railroaded so many times in the past and told I was wrong, therefore I need much time to think about the situation to make certain I am not appearing needy or should just let it go without any conflict.

This morning she is happy as a clam and even offered to give me a BJ last night. I knew she was tired and will be off her period today or tomorrow so I said I would rather wait to have sex with her.

It's almost as if she needs to be manhandled. When I get too close and comfy, she snaps back until we both can't stand it and come back together (sex). This seems to be happening every month or so. She says I'm the one having the "period" every month. Interestingly on Sunday with our whole family in the car, she asked the kids if she acts differently on her period. My 17 year old son immediately said "yes, you act mean and never admit that you're wrong." Thank You son !!!

The ONLY way I could make her see the light was by reversing roles. I told her that If I had done such and such to you, how would you react or feel about it? She could not get past that argument.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> UMP you may be crowding her too much when things are good. Try maintaining a certain level of independence even when things are going well. Establish an exercise routine that fulfills your goals that is not tied to your wife's state of mind. Give her roughly the same amount of space most of the time adjusting when necessary but never crowd or get too close. Somewhere between too much and too little. You can probably figure out where that is.


I really think you have something here because that's exactly what I do. I get very "comfortable" with her until she pushes back and then she wonders why I'm distant.
Compared to my past I feel that I already give her distance, but maybe she needs even more.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> If this appears to be a cyclical pattern where she needs conflict to reset things, what's the downside? She says something stupid and you have the risk of being upset by it and ruining things true--but what if when she calls you a moron for loading the dishwasher wrong you just view it as her strange form of foreplay? Sure it's crazy, but if you ulitimately know that it's heading somewhere good, you're less likely to get mad about it--right?


That's a very interesting thought, and you might be correct. In fact, that is exactly how I've been able to not get visibly upset because I try to look at past results, which always seem to end in great sex. It's almost as if I've got this massive stone that I'm chipping away at to eventually reveal an art masterpiece.(A nymph sex machine) 

When we get too close and comfortable, the sex seems boring. When there is resolved conflict, the sex is GREAT. I'm getting better at it, but it's still difficult to look for the light at the end of the tunnel.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> So Dr Jekill throes you a bone - sex - after the emotional vampire Ms Hyde leaves her body in order to keep you from leaving her for good? Never a dull moment.


Yeah, but the sex is that good. Most of the time she is wonderful and kind, great to be around. If we do not go through this, the sex ends up boring. If there is tension, we seem to cover new sex ground every single time. The sky seems to be the limit on the sex. (I hope) Every session is very passionate and protracted, many positions, hard, soft, ending in a pile of sweaty limp flesh. Just the way I like it!

After 23 years of marriage, hearing your wife say "how can sex be this good after 23 years" is worth something. In fact, it's worth a bunch, in my opinion.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

true. hard to argue with that.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

When I was married and it was my wife's time of the month, I avoided her at all costs. I found out that when it's that time, they could be a complete different person and why run the risk................ya know?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> I really think you have something here because that's exactly what I do. I get very "comfortable" with her until she pushes back and then she wonders why I'm distant.
> Compared to my past I feel that I already give her distance, but maybe she needs even more.


welcome to the club too bad I cannot put it on my husband's PMS:scratchhead:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> welcome to the club too bad I cannot put it on my husband's PMS:scratchhead:


Wanda, Cahterine602,
How does one not "crowd" his wife?
Can you give me concrete examples of what crowding looks like?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

UMP said:


> As you may or may not know, for the last couple years I have really been trying to figure out my wife in regards to sex. I have recorded when we have sex and rate it on a scale of 1 - 5. I keep track of her periods and what dates correspond to the dates and quality of sex. This is just a small part of what I do.
> 
> Also, if you may remember, in the past I have had some anger issues. I have started to see a trend as to why I get angry.
> Once a month or so (sometimes related to her period) my wife starts saying stupid, inflammatory, out of character things to me. For example, this past weekend we're walking up to our 16 year old daughters lacrosse game and I put on some ear muffs. She looks at me and says "you look so old." I would NEVER say that to my wife. I kind of laughed it off and went to the game. Later that night I was playing with her hugging and teasing with some sex talk, hoping to get a BJ because she's on her period and she gets all upset telling me how annoying I am and that all I do is talk about sex. (Not true at all, just mentioned something only that day)
> ...


Strange? No.

Emasculating, absurd and weary? Yes.

I have absolutely no idea how you could put up with this dynamic for 23 days, much less 23 years. I don't know how to be in relationship with someone who disrespects me like this. 

TBH the sex couldn't be steamy, passionate and "like the first time" because her behavior would have sent my temper over the age, helped create resentment and hurt with in me, and her attempts to be intimate after her funk has passed would have been met with coldness and detachment.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Wow UMP you handled that like a champ!!!! Excellent.

And an A+ to your son too. Outta the mouths of babes.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Strange? No.
> 
> Emasculating, absurd and weary? Yes.
> 
> ...


Well, you have to look at the big picture. She is the mother of my 3 wonderful children. She is great with my parents. In fact, they love her more than their own daughter. She cleans, cooks, and manages our household like a pro. She takes care of herself, looks great for her age and is generally kind. If I needed someone on my side for a fight to defend our family, I would pick her. The sex is pretty damn good on average twice a week and keeps getting better 23 years in. No drug use and only drinks occasionally. Nursed me back to health after a severe heart attack and put up with all the mental crap that goes along with it. She is faithful and trustworthy, spends money wisely and will put up with my failings to a fault. (I ain't perfect either)
I can put up with a lot of sh$t for that kind of woman, not to mention the fact that I have invested 23 years of my life with her.

Sure, I could leave her and get crazy poontang on a daily basis from a myriad of women. So what? Gain the world and lose my soul? No thanks.

Life is a sonofa*****. If she is the worst thing to happen to me from now till death, I count myself the most blessed man on earth.

I almost forgot to say. I love her!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

UMP said:


> Well, you have to look at the big picture. She is the mother of my 3 wonderful children. She is great with my parents. In fact, they love her more than their own daughter. She cleans, cooks, and manages our household like a pro. She takes care of herself, looks great for her age and is generally kind. If I needed someone on my side for a fight to defend our family, I would pick her. The sex is pretty damn good on average twice a week and keeps getting better 23 years in. No drug use and only drinks occasionally. Nursed me back to health after a severe heart attack and put up with all the mental crap that goes along with it. She is faithful and trustworthy, spends money wisely and will put up with my failings to a fault. (I ain't perfect either)
> I can put up with a lot of sh$t for that kind of woman, not to mention the fact that I have invested 23 years of my life with her.
> 
> Sure, I could leave her and get crazy poontang on a daily basis from a myriad of women. So what? Gain the world and lose my soul? No thanks.
> ...


Good for you, really. I'm glad you love what you have and seem to truly appreciate your wife. She sounds like she's got a ton of incredible attributes lots of men would kill for. 

I'm just commenting on the tone of the example you gave and answering the question. Me personally? I put a VERY high value on respect and kindness with any woman I'm with. There are no positive attributes worth the price of losing that, for me. It's got nothing to do with betting "crazy pootang" at all. I'm just personally allergic to the kind of comments and attitude your wife takes with you sometime.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> Wanda, Cahterine602,
> How does one not "crowd" his wife?
> Can you give me concrete examples of what crowding looks like?


That's something you have to figure out. in my case it is my husband who will push away when things are getting too nice. 

But I think you are actually doing excellent job. It is just a question of you will be able to continue wihtout building up a resentment. It does look like it is a possibility when you look at the rewards


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> How does one not "crowd" his wife?
> 
> Can you give me concrete examples of what crowding looks like?



My wife feels I crowd her by being too physical with her or by talking about my work or other issues she's not interested. 

Not exactly rational but I can see her point.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Well you did say she was on her period, maybe that's why she was moody


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> That's something you have to figure out. in my case it is my husband who will push away when things are getting too nice.
> 
> But I think you are actually doing excellent job. It is just a question of you will be able to continue wihtout building up a resentment. It does look like it is a possibility when you look at the rewards


The resentment is slowly going away, for two reasons.
1. This board really helps me understand what is going on.
2. She really does enjoy sex. She may not touch me, or initiate touch outside of sex, sometimes. However, when we get to it, she is generally ALL IN and is visibly VERY excited, hot for sex. It seems that the less we touch (so long as we talk a bunch) the more she is into sex. The more we touch outside the bedroom, (even if we still talk) the less she is into sex.

The more I act like I want sex all the time, the less she is into it. The more I act like I DON'T want sex, the more she is into it.

I guess that's how my cookie crumbles.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> My wife feels I crowd her by being too physical with her or by talking about my work or other issues she's not interested.
> 
> Not exactly rational but I can see her point.


Mine does not mind the work talk, she does not like to talk ABOUT sex or does not like sexual banter. She says it reminds her of her male high school friends talking dirty to her all the time to get a rise out of her. (she did not have sex in high school, but had mostly male friends)

I just told her a couple days ago. "Honey, we are NOT in high school anymore. I am your husband, the only person you're supposed to have sex with, not some 17 year old kid that wants to touch your boobs." She seemed to get that.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UMP, I just want to say that I love this thread so, so much. My husband actually asked me to read it because he said it was "eerie." We have this same dynamic. I don't know if this is any consolation, but we both realize it, we have discussed it many times . . . and it hasn't changed. The good news it that we understand how it affects our relationship, and we understand how it looks from the POV of our partner. This helps us both mitigate its effects MOST of the time.

You are doing a stellar job, and your wife is so damn lucky. 

But you could try talking to her about it. Not in a "Hey, this is YOUR pattern of behavior" sort of way, but in a "Hey, have you noticed this pattern in our dynamic?" sort of way. It wasn't until my husband and I could talk about it neutrally without trying to pin responsibility on one other the other of us for it that we really were able to understand it. It deepened out intimacy considerably to be able to work out WHY this is out pattern. Demystifying it robbed it of much of its power to cause either of us distress or worry, which in turn reduced both the frequency and duration of the episodes considerably.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

UMP,

M2 is a bit like this. 

When her hormones are whacked, U2 feels tense and angry. So she gets aggressive. 

You have learned that:
- Getting angry back (is counterproductive)
- Acting hurt (makes it all worse)
- Being rational (is mostly a bust because she either denies the initial incident or tells you that you are being hyper sensitive)

All that is just like M2. This is what works with M2:
- Humor
Or
- Opening the door for her to release Her aggression physically

When I smack her azz, she will typically start to spar with me. Our sparring rules are simple:

Her rules:
1. My throat and eyes are off limits 
2. Punching, biting, scratching, knees and elbows are all fair game. It's MMA without a ref or equipment. 

My rules:
1. No striking of any sort
2. No biting or scratching 

I block and wrestle. If I pin her, she either says 'uncle' or gets spanked. It's very hard to pin her. 

Plus - she uses all kinds of psychological warfare. Such as:
- I can't breathe, I can't breathe (took me a while to figure out that talking requires breathing)
- Your hurting/crushing me
Or the worst is she does some shlt makes me laugh so hard I am physically impaired. 

Thing is - after 10-15 minute of this - she's completly relaxed and often turned on. 

One reason this game works so well is that:
- M2 knows I won't injure her 
And
- I know that if I'm not careful, she WILL knee me in the balls - she sure as hell tries hard enough

This approach is WAY better than any rational discussion of why she is shlt testing me in a nasty way. 

As for 'looking old' - I've seen that movie. When M2 does stuff like that, she either spars with me or I relentlessly play the role. 

Mockingly:
Hold that thought, need to get my walker/take my geritol/change my depends/put my dentures in.

But then I'd also increase the pace the next time we did something physical together, til she was a bit distressed and then innocently ask: You ok babe? I can slow down to more of an AARP pace if you need. 

Let her release her aggression via sparring or laughter. Telling her she's being a bltch is pointless. She already knows she is. 




UMP said:


> The resentment is slowly going away, for two reasons.
> 1. This board really helps me understand what is going on.
> 2. She really does enjoy sex. She may not touch me, or initiate touch outside of sex, sometimes. However, when we get to it, she is generally ALL IN and is visibly VERY excited, hot for sex. It seems that the less we touch (so long as we talk a bunch) the more she is into sex. The more we touch outside the bedroom, (even if we still talk) the less she is into sex.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

This would work if said b!tching behavior partner has a sense of humor or can vent frustration via physical means. 

J2 has little sense of humor (a rarity as it is in her people) and while fit and trim she has no chance of landing a single blow to anyone who's not in critical condition. Her only way to vent frustration is to take it on someone else, and depriving her of that pleasure is preferable.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Let her release her aggression via sparring or laughter. Telling her she's being a bltch is pointless. She already knows she is.


:iagree:

We do something similar. I've found that I'm often in need of an "emotional reset" and something very physical akin to what MEM describes has proven to be extremely beneficial for us. Sometimes I just feel like such a mess inside. Working out, exercising, etc. just does not fit the bill. It has to be physical, and it has to involve my husband.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John, 
If you subtracted M2's sense of humor our marriage wouldn't work. 

And oddly enough, even when she's being very difficult/mean her sense of humor remains fully intact. 

The ONLY time it disappears is when she's truly angry, and that's a small fraction of the time. 






john117 said:


> This would work if said b!tching behavior partner has a sense of humor or can vent frustration via physical means.
> 
> J2 has little sense of humor (a rarity as it is in her people) and while fit and trim she has no chance of landing a single blow to anyone who's not in critical condition. Her only way to vent frustration is to take it on someone else, and depriving her of that pleasure is preferable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,

I think that's fairly normal. And it's important to me that M2 feels comfortable being fully transparent. So when she gets off kilter, instead of trying to repress it and quietly going mad - she ummm expresses it. 

A good tussle is a perfectly harmless way to release all that energy. 




GettingIt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> We do something similar. I've found that I'm often in need of an "emotional reset" and something very physical akin to what MEM describes has proven to be extremely beneficial for us. Sometimes I just feel like such a mess inside. Working out, exercising, etc. just does not fit the bill. It has to be physical, and it has to involve my husband.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Speaking personally I can appreciate good humor as much as I can deliver it but all the comedians in Comedy Central can't fix a situation gone wrong. Humor tends to cover things up, not solve them.

It does tend to defuse tension which helps, but if it takes Margaret Cho skills to get a relationship working, I'm not sure I would like it as much. Sometimes jld is right with transparency  this is what it is, how do we deal with it...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GettingIt said:


> UMP, I just want to say that I love this thread so, so much. My husband actually asked me to read it because he said it was "eerie." We have this same dynamic. I don't know if this is any consolation, but we both realize it, we have discussed it many times . . . and it hasn't changed. The good news it that we understand how it affects our relationship, and we understand how it looks from the POV of our partner. This helps us both mitigate its effects MOST of the time.
> 
> You are doing a stellar job, and your wife is so damn lucky.
> 
> But you could try talking to her about it. Not in a "Hey, this is YOUR pattern of behavior" sort of way, but in a "Hey, have you noticed this pattern in our dynamic?" sort of way. It wasn't until my husband and I could talk about it neutrally without trying to pin responsibility on one other the other of us for it that we really were able to understand it. It deepened out intimacy considerably to be able to work out WHY this is out pattern. Demystifying it robbed it of much of its power to cause either of us distress or worry, which in turn reduced both the frequency and duration of the episodes considerably.


Last night we talked about it after sex. The main problem I see is that we both think so differently. Not to be cliché, but men ARE from Mars and women ARE from Venus. She cannot understand me and I cannot understand her. Our minds are just so different. I think so logically and she thinks so emotionally. 

If I say such and such made me feel like x, she will respond that what I just said about such and such makes her feel like y. If we were in a court room, we would both be thrown out for contempt of court.

Some how we reached a happy place and cuddled before bed. All is good.

As you said, we both need to realize that in the scheme of things, this is nothing and we can work it out. We did "demystify" the problem and have moved on. I think the key is to not let the issue take root. Either I have to laugh it off, and she needs to think before she says something *****y. In the end, I think it's up to me to just take it. There is nothing sinister or apocalyptic about what she does or says so I need to remember that and let it go.

I hate to say this, but if I viewed her in these times as a 6 year old little girl saying the same things to me, I would just smile, caress her face and tell her how cute she was.

We make so much out of nothing and sex makes it all better anyway 

In the end, I will never fully understand my wife and I believe she will never fully understand me, yet we both want and need each other. I guess that's what makes marriage so intriguing and ultimately pretty damn cool.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UMP said:


> Last night we talked about it after sex. The main problem I see is that we both think so differently. Not to be cliché, but men ARE from Mars and women ARE from Venus. She cannot understand me and I cannot understand her. Our minds are just so different. I think so logically and she thinks so emotionally.
> 
> If I say such and such made me feel like x, she will respond that what I just said about such and such makes her feel like y. If we were in a court room, we would both be thrown out for contempt of court.


My husband and I have the exact same issues. We are so fundamentally incompatible in our intellectual and emotional make-up that we might as well be different species. Our conflicts over the years haven't been over our values, but over the fact that I say and mean one thing, and he hears something completely different. It's taken us most of our marriage to come to realize this and now we're like OH! so THAT was the problem! The funny thing is that we often agree on an issue, but can't even recognize that because we express ourselves so differently that what looks like argument from the other person actually turns out to be agreement. I know it sounds completely impossible, but I'm telling you, that's how it is. 




UMP said:


> Some how we reached a happy place and cuddled before bed. All is good.
> 
> As you said, we both need to realize that in the scheme of things, this is nothing and we can work it out. We did "demystify" the problem and have moved on. I think the key is to not let the issue take root. Either I have to laugh it off, and she needs to think before she says something *****y. In the end, I think it's up to me to just take it. There is nothing sinister or apocalyptic about what she does or says so I need to remember that and let it go.


I wish my husband and I could have demystified our incompatibilities earlier. I built up so much resentment that it shut me down sexually, and then that affected my husband's ability to adjust to our differences. We lost intimacy, and without intimacy we could not work together. We drifted past one another for a decade, just lost. You guys seemed to have preserved your intimacy through all of this, which is really, really fortunate. You learned a way to react to your wife that diffused the conflict once it was in motion, your wife learned (or is aware she has to learn) what behaviors of hers initiates conflict in the first place. 

This is where we are now, my husband and I. I have a lot more problem altering my behavior than he does for various reasons, but he accepts it far more readily that he did in the past because he realizes it doesn't mean what he thought it meant. He realizes he doesn't have to "fix" me or jump through hoops to make me happy. 



UMP said:


> I hate to say this, but if I viewed her in these times as a 6 year old little girl saying the same things to me, I would just smile, caress her face and tell her how cute she was.


You might hate to say it, but something like that would have gone a long way towards diffusing the resentment that built up in me. We were forever trying to reach consensus . . . but the problem was there never was going to be consensus to reach. Your wife might not care at all that you imagine her as a little girl--especially if what makes her anxious is your getting upset about the ways she is different from you. She want to feel accepted the way she is, and you have found a way to do that. 



UMP said:


> We make so much out of nothing and sex makes it all better anyway


Sex is what eventually made it all better for us, too. Well not sex so much as intimacy. We put aside the resentments and found a way to communicate again. It didn't change the fact that we were fundamentally different, but we at least recognized that our differenced didn't have to mean conflict.



UMP said:


> In the end, I will never fully understand my wife and I believe she will never fully understand me, yet we both want and need each other. I guess that's what makes marriage so intriguing and ultimately pretty damn cool.


See, I see so much beauty in this, too. People say, "why didn't you two divorce? How did you make it through all those years of struggle? Why didn't he cheat? Why didn't you find someone you could be happy with?" Neither of us can answer that question except to say that there is such deep chemistry between us, such passion and love and some sort of need. We've been together for 25 years. (We dated for 11 before we threw caution to the wind and got married ) Neither one of us could bring ourselves to end it. We just hung on until we could find a better way to be together. Yeah it's work and we will never fully understand one another, but in my mind the necessity of having to work is actually what keeps us together. In some fvcked up way, we thrive on the challenge.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GettingIt, 
It's kind of like going through battle and surviving. There is so much value built up and cannot be replaced. It's like being in a foxhole with someone dodging bombs for 23 years.
Not a relationship that can easily be dismissed.
When we're old, gray and feeble, I can think of no one else that I want to gaze deep in their eyes and hold their hand as I take my last breath.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

UMP Rather than being distressed by your lack of understanding of your wife you should celebrate. �� It's very good for maintaining the passion in your relationship, don't you think? You are not predictable and neither is your wife. There is an element of mystery and surprise in your relationship. 

I read somewhere knowing your partner too well is deadly to passion. You may want something that is actually counterproductive. Is it that you want to predict what your wife will do and say so you can protect yourself from being hurt? 

What is happening in your relationship seems to fit the pattern of more passion because you can't understand each other to some degree. The unpredictability keeps your relationship fresh and edgy. Neither of you fade into the background.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

UMP said:


> I agree. She has no abuse, parents were great and still married.
> 
> As far as I can see, she is trying to get me upset or at least testing to see if she can trust that I WON'T get upset. Sometimes the things she says are very hurtful and out of the blue, with nothing from me causing her to say such things.
> 
> I'm learning to just brush it off. Me posting here gives me information so that I don't think I'm going crazy.


This is called "fitness testing", and it is a (generally unconscious) attempt to find out if you are strong enough to handle her tests, preferably with an air of amused superiority.

If you get flustered by her behavior, then how could you protect her against another man? However, if you can handle her easily, then you are worthy of having sex with. This is discussed in great detail in MMSLP by Athol Kay.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

UMP said:


> I think she knows exactly what she is doing. That's the part that really pisses me off. She tries to get me upset to see if I'm strong enough to handle her shiit, WITHOUT getting mad.
> That's what she wants or likes or something like that.


Yes, that is precisely the purpose of fitness testing. It is a natural behavior of women, although of course it varies among women. My wife isn't nearly as thorough about it as yours is!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

UMP,

How about - a calm question for her: Do you really think those ear muffs make me look old, or were you just sparring with me? 

Maybe sparring back might work. Such as: 

A couple folks asked me if I'd brought my mother to the game, so I put these on for us to look more the same age. Are they doing the trick? 






UMP said:


> Last night we talked about it after sex. The main problem I see is that we both think so differently. Not to be cliché, but men ARE from Mars and women ARE from Venus. She cannot understand me and I cannot understand her. Our minds are just so different. I think so logically and she thinks so emotionally.
> 
> If I say such and such made me feel like x, she will respond that what I just said about such and such makes her feel like y. If we were in a court room, we would both be thrown out for contempt of court.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ump,

Before I learned how to read M2's cues - that I was crowding her - she used to do the act same type stuff. 

Maybe you could try this: 
"If you need some space you can tell me. You don't need to say hurtful things to get me to back up"

BUT - that has to be true. 




UMP said:


> GettingIt,
> It's kind of like going through battle and surviving. There is so much value built up and cannot be replaced. It's like being in a foxhole with someone dodging bombs for 23 years.
> Not a relationship that can easily be dismissed.
> When we're old, gray and feeble, I can think of no one else that I want to gaze deep in their eyes and hold their hand as I take my last breath.


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