# Frustrated and not sure what to do



## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Hello, I am 26 and my wife is 31. We have been together for almost 8 years. Recently we have been having a very rough time, but the majority of the frustration seems to be about sex. She doesn't want it and feels that, that is all I ever want or think about. I have hurt her pretty bad emotionally in that department and I am willing to accept full responsibility. For example I have pressured her into it on more than one occasion, throwing what I can only describe as a temper tantrum when I don't get my way. Being mean and vindictive keeping her awake and sleep deprived because I didn't get my way. Most of these times end up with her giving in just so she can get some sleep and I will leave her alone. I have no excuse for this behavior and it is one that I am aware of and am focusing a lot of time and attention on fixing. All of this causes her to not want anything to do with me in the bedroom and in her words she has only kept doing it because its her "wifely duty". I hate that it has come to this I never wanted it to be that way. I tend to express my love physically and because of the past and the hurt she doesn't see it that way. It has come to the point now where I drive her away and she will avoid me like the plague. She'll stay up very late at night just to make sure I'm asleep before she comes to bed. Well this has caused the problems to become even worse because now when she does come around I'm that much more sexually charged, and I feel like I have to take the opportunity because who knows how long until the next time. I don't think its all about sex and I want to spend more time just with her but I'm constantly afraid that I will miss my opportunity. I have done a poor job of respecting her boundaries by turning "no" into "yes". When she says no I feel like "well I'll show her and she'll like it". About a week ago we had another incident and I was being a jerk and sitting around the house sulking and pouting because I didn't get my way. I was extreamly edgy and pretty much hated the world. I ended up snapping at my daughter which set my wife off over the edge. She got the kids dressed and I tagged along just to find myself at my mothers house with my wife crying that she wants a separation or a divorce because she can't go on like this. 

We talked for hours with my mom and dad about very uncomfortable subjects about oral sex and how I want it and she doesn't and the reasons. She told them that I just want it all the time (which isn't true, again I just feel like its like that because of the stress and pressure and not knowing when the opportunity will arise again). She told me that she doesn't think I help out enough around the house. (She is a stay at home mom and I work full time out of the house). I feel pretty crappy about it because I do work hard to provide for her and our 3 kids and coming home and seeing the house in the exact same state it was when I left doesn't make me really want to come home to more work. I have never ever ever talked down to her about housework or dishes or laundry piling up. I just don't care about it. Its not high on my priority list and I do not demand that she do the "woman work" as she calls it while I go to work. I often find her playing computer games while I'm at work and sure that makes me jelous and all the more reason why I don't even want to help out. If I saw effort and there was something I could do when I got home I don't have a problem with it. She stays up and talks to her online friends for hours after I go to bed playing even simple games like tic tac toe or connect four online, while I sit up stairs watching tv hearing her laugh and resenting the fact that 1) I don't have her attention, and 2) I have to go to sleep because I have to get up and go to work. She is at home with our 2 youngest kids 3 and 4 years old and while she has to be there for mom stuff she isn't up at 5:30am and she can catch a nap during the day. The staying up late is to avoid me according to her and the lack of attention I receive is pretty much eating me up. I don't want her to stop what she enjoys or not have these friends (all of who are male) I don't normally feel afraid or jealous of her running off to them but I do feel jealous of the time and attention. 

My wife says that she doesn't know if she loves me anymore but we agree that we can try to work on this. So at my mothers suggestion we are to cut out sex completely until she comes to me. Sounds simple but its not. I can give up the intercourse as it was just sex and we never really connected anyways, but I have having a hellish time keeping my hands to myself and not touching her breasts. I feel loving when I am physical, I want her to know that she rocks my world and I can't keep my hands off of her. I want to kiss her and hold her and caress her. The whole thing is causing more problems in my opinion because we aren't fixing the problem we are only changing in to a new one. I'm afraid of how long it will take for her to come to me. I try and tell her this and she says to me well if you really loved me like you say you do then you could wait forever. In my mind I can understand but I am an emotional wreck inside. She has told me in the past and not under stress or out of anger just talking, that sex means pretty much nothing to her she could care less and go the rest of her life without it and be just fine. I'm not sure I could. I'm scared that since she already has this mindset that she won't ever be ready or healed. I feel like garbage because I caused this monster and yet I can't seem to just stop. I fear for myself that I will just become jaded and stop caring. I have these feeling and they need to go somewhere talking to her about them seems to just put the focus back on sex and that's again all I can think of. I feel that ultimately this was terrible advise as now instead of her hurt I am hurting. I feel like I'm being punished although she swears it isn't. I don't want my mind and eyes to wander but honestly the longer that it goes the more and more I feel that they are. I keep trying to remember why I'm fighting for this and keep my eye on the end goal but without a time frame its hard to stay focused and not just feel like forever. I'm afraid she won't come to me and I will have wasted all my time and effort for nothing. 

She doesn't seem to understand that on a physical level I need to touch her to show her to be physical. I want to move forward. I've asked her to take down her defenses and let me in. I know this will be hard but I don't feel like she is even trying. I realize that if I screw up one more time, one more tantrum, one more foot out of line it could very well be my last chance. I am determined to not screw it up, to respect her and show her love. Thats why I am willing to ask her to be vulnerable so I can show her the change so that I can prove my love and commitment to this. 

I feel that she thinks this is about sex and is why she just wants to stop but I feel this is about me not respecting her and I need to change that. She can't see the change unless she lets me. I am totally willing to abstain with her while at the same time hating it, but if it will bring her any peace I will. But I don't think it will because its not the real problem. Instead I just end up fighting with myself daily and feeling worse and worse. Like I said above I feel like we are just exchanging issues and not working on them.

We've agreed to find a counselor but due to schedules and cost its been difficult. For now she wants to continue to use my mom and I'm not sure that's a great idea. 

Any advice, tips, thoughts, questions or comments are welcome.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I think you need to go to therapy and find out why you can't control yourself like other men do. What you've done to your wife around sex is horrible and you should be ashamed.

I think you need counseling on your own well before the two of you enter counseling together. I don't think you understand the long-term damage you've caused her. She understands your physical needs all too well since you've done what you've done. So please don't tell us she doesn't understand. She knows. She gets that part.

What she's never seen is a man who knows how to control himself or knows how to actually love another person.

Get thee into therapy and don't even think about going together until you've had a few good months of it yourself. All therapy will do right now is solidify the reasons she (probably) hates you.


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

Wow. sjm, you are really immature. I don't like finger pointing but in your case I can almost sure you that you are smothering your wife to death. You are also too possesive. Give her some breathing room. Do things to help her out. I don't think you understand the WORK that is involved taking care of young children. You may feel like she is playing online too much while you are at work but really; maybe it's the only time she has for herself. Also, you sound as if you are going to become impotent in the a few days so you have to rush sex before your life is over. C'mon, slow down a little, sex with a woman is supposed to be a two way street. I am willing to bet - if it isn't too late already, that you can make some major changes but first you have to grow up. Also, do you know that you are abusing your wife with sleep deprevation whenever you deny her sleep like you say you do. I would not be surprised at all if she already started an emotional affair with her online male friends - I wouldn't blame her if you treat the way you say you do. You are certainly pushing her away. As dobo said, definitely go to counseling for yourself for a few months before you bring her in. If you want to save your marriage; give her some space, help her around the house even if you think she doesn't do anything to clean up. Maybe, if she sees you putting in the effort, she will join in. Again, you really need to understand what it is like being around young children all day, everyday - it is taxing and hard work. If you back off, improve yourself, treat her withr respect, you might like what comes of it.

As for Hater, I am speechless. Brothels? wow, well your situation may be different; I don't know. If as you say, your wife intentionally punishes you by withholding sex for that long than I'm with you brotha' she can't possibly think that is funny, or productive. I wonder what she would say if you talked to her and told her that her withholding sex from you for that long is going to drive you to find sex elsewhere. Would she care? Would she realize what she is doing? I venture to guess. I don't know why she would be doing that to you but whatever it is, you both need to talk about it becuase this is serious damage to your marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SJM,
I have been married for 20 years. My wife has sex with me whenever I ask. If you want help with your situation send me a private message. 

You are 80% in the wrong. BUT your wife is a good solid 20% in the wrong as well - not about sex - she is the victim there, but in terms of not being respectful to you. 

If you listen to Brighterlight you will fix ALL your problems, your wife will fix none of hers, she will have zero respect for you and you will be treated like the doormat you will have become. 





sjm1983 said:


> Hello, I am 26 and my wife is 31. We have been together for almost 8 years. Recently we have been having a very rough time, but the majority of the frustration seems to be about sex. She doesn't want it and feels that, that is all I ever want or think about. I have hurt her pretty bad emotionally in that department and I am willing to accept full responsibility. For example I have pressured her into it on more than one occasion, throwing what I can only describe as a temper tantrum when I don't get my way. Being mean and vindictive keeping her awake and sleep deprived because I didn't get my way. Most of these times end up with her giving in just so she can get some sleep and I will leave her alone. I have no excuse for this behavior and it is one that I am aware of and am focusing a lot of time and attention on fixing. All of this causes her to not want anything to do with me in the bedroom and in her words she has only kept doing it because its her "wifely duty". I hate that it has come to this I never wanted it to be that way. I tend to express my love physically and because of the past and the hurt she doesn't see it that way. It has come to the point now where I drive her away and she will avoid me like the plague. She'll stay up very late at night just to make sure I'm asleep before she comes to bed. Well this has caused the problems to become even worse because now when she does come around I'm that much more sexually charged, and I feel like I have to take the opportunity because who knows how long until the next time. I don't think its all about sex and I want to spend more time just with her but I'm constantly afraid that I will miss my opportunity. I have done a poor job of respecting her boundaries by turning "no" into "yes". When she says no I feel like "well I'll show her and she'll like it". About a week ago we had another incident and I was being a jerk and sitting around the house sulking and pouting because I didn't get my way. I was extreamly edgy and pretty much hated the world. I ended up snapping at my daughter which set my wife off over the edge. She got the kids dressed and I tagged along just to find myself at my mothers house with my wife crying that she wants a separation or a divorce because she can't go on like this.
> 
> We talked for hours with my mom and dad about very uncomfortable subjects about oral sex and how I want it and she doesn't and the reasons. She told them that I just want it all the time (which isn't true, again I just feel like its like that because of the stress and pressure and not knowing when the opportunity will arise again). She told me that she doesn't think I help out enough around the house. (She is a stay at home mom and I work full time out of the house). I feel pretty crappy about it because I do work hard to provide for her and our 3 kids and coming home and seeing the house in the exact same state it was when I left doesn't make me really want to come home to more work. I have never ever ever talked down to her about housework or dishes or laundry piling up. I just don't care about it. Its not high on my priority list and I do not demand that she do the "woman work" as she calls it while I go to work. I often find her playing computer games while I'm at work and sure that makes me jelous and all the more reason why I don't even want to help out. If I saw effort and there was something I could do when I got home I don't have a problem with it. She stays up and talks to her online friends for hours after I go to bed playing even simple games like tic tac toe or connect four online, while I sit up stairs watching tv hearing her laugh and resenting the fact that 1) I don't have her attention, and 2) I have to go to sleep because I have to get up and go to work. She is at home with our 2 youngest kids 3 and 4 years old and while she has to be there for mom stuff she isn't up at 5:30am and she can catch a nap during the day. The staying up late is to avoid me according to her and the lack of attention I receive is pretty much eating me up. I don't want her to stop what she enjoys or not have these friends (all of who are male) I don't normally feel afraid or jealous of her running off to them but I do feel jealous of the time and attention.
> 
> ...


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## CarolineMRF (Sep 2, 2009)

If you were my husband and had done this to me, you wouldn't be my husband...I wonder if she ever enjoyed sex or was overpowered at the beginning?.....What a man gets out of sex is completely different than what a woman feels....If she is not in heat for you, it could be compared to peeing inside her....Add to this someone yanking on her breasts....To have to tolerate this could be more than any woman can stand....I am not sure when, but somewhere along the way you read something wrong in a sex book....I'll let your men friends here instruct you on "what to do"...However, I can tell you that you have a tough road ahead....And you are right...She will go... 

I don't like any words on sex referred to as kind of "duty" sex...Like she would give it to me every night bit...We are in heat for each other....May be the middle of the day or the middle of the morning...Hot urges with dirty words that turn into Smutsville USA....This is what I consider good sex.....But then I am older and anything goes....


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## chuckf75 (Sep 6, 2009)

SJM, I am sorry for some of the posts here. People saying things like "you should be ashamed" as so on. You come here looking for help and you get put down. Stuff like that would make me not want to reach out to others for advise. You are making an effort to change and need to be given credit for that. 

I don't have your problem but at the same time people don't always understand the urges. Tell some of these women to not want to drink water when they are thirsty! We know that sometimes the sex urge can be overpowering.

However, I do think you need to try hard to refrain from sex for a while, talk with her, ask her if you do if she will come to you eventually. By the way, if she won't or doesn't, time to move on. My wife loves sex and wants it more than I do and there is no way I could live with a woman who doesn't want it. But you have caused some damage and work needs to be done. Do you masterbate? Does this help?

This problem does seem very large and professional should be gotten. Remember that it is not all your fault though.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Come on, Chuck. Do you really understand or condone the things he has done to his wife in the name of getting sex? Where exactly is the love in what he's done? He's been selfish and abusive. And to you that's OK because he has urges? Well, then why do the other 99% of men behave properly toward their wives even though they sometimes don't get the sex they want?

This isn't about urges. This is about dominance, control, immaturity, and abuse. 

Would you like this man to marry your daughter?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dobo,
I will turn it around. I would NOT want his wife to marry my son. She is lazy and goofs off on the computer instead of doing her JOB around the house. That is totally disrespectful to him and his efforts to support the family. And it sets a terrible example for the kids with regard to what a well run house is like.

As for the women who stick up for the wife saying that she needs "down time" on the computer because her job is so hard. He would not comment on the computer time of the house was clean, laundry done, cooking done. But it is not. 

Like I said - this guy is 100% of the sexual problem, but only 80% of the marital problem. If the solution becomes he does the housework plus his regular job then I guarantee their sex life is permanently gone. Ask any of the men who have lived that sad story. It only happens when wife has no love AND no respect for the man, and when he has so little respect for himself that he gets turned into her personal slave. 

Like I said before, ignore her part in this - and the marriage is absolutely doomed - unless he demands the same respect out of the bedroom, that she deserves IN the bedroom, he is lost. 
















dobo said:


> Come on, Chuck. Do you really understand or condone the things he has done to his wife in the name of getting sex? Where exactly is the love in what he's done? He's been selfish and abusive. And to you that's OK because he has urges? Well, then why do the other 99% of men behave properly toward their wives even though they sometimes don't get the sex they want?
> 
> This isn't about urges. This is about dominance, control, immaturity, and abuse.
> 
> Would you like this man to marry your daughter?


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

How come you are ignoring the abuse and assaults she has endured? I'm sorry but her laziness may actually be a result of his early behavior in the marriage. She has no respect for him because he's a man who has not earned any respect.

The real problem with this marriage is that she didn't leave him right away and teach him a lesson. Instead he's here with too little, too late, wanting to fix things. He hasn't learned his lesson on how to treat her and this was from the beginning.

She's AVOIDING HIM. Do you get it? Did it start out that way? Doubtful. He created this situation and now you complain about her? She was created by him. Her lack of love and lack of effort toward anything having to do with him is BECAUSE of him. 

I haven't noticed that the children are not cared for. He may not realize it but with children that small, it is difficult to do everything he thinks is no big deal ESPECIALLY when you're staying up late, depriving yourself of sleep to AVOID THE ******* THAT OCCUPIES YOUR BED.

He's driven her from her bed. If she were smart she'd sleep in another room and stop pretending.

She's not lazy. She's tired. She's prioritized survival and her children over cleaning the house for HIM. If she felt safe in her own bed, maybe things would be different. But they're not. And they will continue this way even if he changes because after years of abuse it will take her a long time to recover any trust. But the fact is she probably doesn't love him and will never again. 

He's 100% of the sexual problem, 80% of the relational problem, but you choose to focus on her 20%? After all she's endured? Excuse me? He's never earned a single iota of respect. Is anyone surprised at how she feels now? 

This relationship is already over. He's just not smart enough to realize that he's the one that killed it. She didn't give up much of a fight and has done what a lot of people who are in abusive relationships do to survive -- they detatch. 

I'm blown away at the picking on this woman. You're totally clueless.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree that he may have taken this past the point of no return. 

I also firmly believe this MUST be a two way change. He stops the sexual abuse - and she steps up and starts doing her job. THEY both have to show commitment to the marriage. She doesn't get to be "depressed" and not do her job because she is upset. Despite the fact that he is in the wrong he is also miserable - has felt totally rejected by his wife for quite some time and yet HE keeps going to work every day. And I am NOT excusing his bullying behavior at all. I am simply describing his depressed/anxious rejected state - which he is not using as an excuse to stop working.

If she doesn't respect him, his hard work, and her responsibilities to their children - which includes keeping the house up, then this will never work. 







dobo said:


> How come you are ignoring the abuse and assaults she has endured? I'm sorry but her laziness may actually be a result of his early behavior in the marriage. She has no respect for him because he's a man who has not earned any respect.
> 
> The real problem with this marriage is that she didn't leave him right away and teach him a lesson. Instead he's here with too little, too late, wanting to fix things. He hasn't learned his lesson on how to treat her and this was from the beginning.
> 
> ...


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## 20yrs (Sep 18, 2009)

If my husband did that to me, he would not get any sex either, for a good long time... and I would sit on the computer all night instead of going to bed.... to face whatever awaits me there...

What he needs to do is show her he loves her in other ways - NOT ANYTHING SEXUAL... thats all I have to say.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

She is doing work. She's taking care of the children. That she's not doing the work HE would prefer, might just be a message to him.

I don't think his simply stopping the abuse is going to cut it. She's been traumatized. She's going to take a long time to get over this and I'd wager many, many women never would. 

I really think you're still minimizing the damage he's done. The psychological scars can be debilitating. 

I think telling this guy who has done so much damage that if she doesn't kick in cleaning the house this won't work is giving him an excuse to keep abusing her. I think it is dangerous. People who are this abusive over years don't need more excuses to keep up their behavior. 

Her 20% means so little by comparison. If it is even 20%. 

And I wouldn't give him a medal for going to work, either. It just isn't that special.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Wow, thank you for all your replies. One thing I want to say is that I can control myself. Its not that I can't I just feel very physical. It has been over two weeks since we had sex and honestly it has gotten easier for me. I thought I would feel resentment but I think that was the inner demon trying to get his way again. The longer we have gone the better I feel about it. I still want to touch but I have found new ways that give me the same feelings. My arm around her while we sleep, a foot rub after shes been on them for a while. I feel happy to try and make her feel good in a non sexual way. It is honestly something that I still struggle with especially when lying in bed together but I am overcoming. 

Another thing I want to say is that I have never ever thought that her job wasn't tough. I never ever said that taking care of the children wasn't a full time job and I do not expect her to do all the housework. I only brought it up as it was something she expressed to me from her. I don't care if its not done and I see now that this is the wrong mindset. I was thinking wow nothing done why should I have to do it all. I now see that I should be thinking, wow she had a hard day and didn't get to it, let me help out. 

Her escape to the computer is totally on me, I pushed her there. These friends of hers are her escape from me and I've known it but I haven't wanted to think about what it could mean. One in particular has known about what is going on and given her advice. I don't really know what the advice has been she won't say but I can't help but feel that the advice would be for his own interest. 

Things haven't always been this way but it did start a long time ago. I emotionally abused her and I just wanted to talk to someone about it all. I don't mind being called out for it as these actions have been totally out of line. I didn't even know what I was doing to her. We would fight, it would be late and then I thought we were having makeup sex most of the time. I didn't even know her feelings most of the time. There have been a few times when I knew and did my thing anyways. 

Someone asked about masturbation and I can tell you that I don't. In the past yes and it made her upset so I stopped. She told me that it was selfish and why couldn't I wait for her. So I stopped. I don't regret it.

I've told her at this point that I love her still more than anything and would like to chance to reconnect and that I know it can't be fixed quickly or easily. But that I can't stand seeing her upset anymore. If it hurts her this way then I guess I have to give her up. Its the most selfless thing I can do. It hurts it sucks I broke down when trying to tell her this and she seemed relieved. I asked her what she wants me to do and she won't answer me. She seems almost like a whole other person after telling her this. I think I know what I must do to make her happy and that is just let it be the end. 

I haven't been hanging on just for fear of financial obligations like child/spousal support. And I have no problem with taking the basics that I need and just leaving if that's what she wants. I'll find some place I can afford and pay the other bills for her as long as I can. 

She still went and laid down with me in bed last night and we talked, I don't want to give up. I held her and she fell asleep watching star wars. My arm gently draped across her she didn't seem to mind and I hope that she will give me the chance to show her that I can change. Not for her but for me. My eyes are open now, perhaps too little too late but I want to try still, because even though she says that she has no feelings, no love for me, I still love her. She is the woman for me and I have to at least attempt to try and show her that I am not all bad and that maybe she can find that spark again.

P.S.
I don't think she is in the wrong, I don't want her to change she has done enough already just putting up with this garbage for as long as she has. And as for the guy who was talking about brothels and what not, I can't see how that is helpful at all. I came her for help and while some of the replies have been hard to hear and swallow they are at least constructive and I appreciate them.


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## Choose2love (Jul 28, 2009)

Some really interesting comments on this thread! I can completely understand your urges, I had them too. Being a woman though, I would retreat instead of getting aggressive... but he would follow me into the other room to continue the argument. Almost every time, I ended up saying to him "I cant believe you would rather argue than have sex... we could have had it, been done and asleep by now." Also having been on the receiving end of unwanted sex, it is very difficult to want to have sex with that person, as the trust was broken. Its like you want to feel comfortable but cant... now with her perhaps she doesnt even want to anymore (from the sounds of it). 

Its amazing how the sexes can interpret things so differently... you thought you were having make up sex and she thought she was being forced! Ever wonder how we ever get along with someone of the opposite sex? I really dont have many words of advice but it appears that she isnt walking out the door, and has fallen asleep with your arm around her... 2 positive things. Having struggled for many years over whether to leave my first marriage, I know that if you have taken positive steps prior to her seeing a lawyer... that is a huge plus. The next step will be to keep it up, your committment to her and the marriage, however it now needs to be defined. I do agree with MEM about not doing all the chores around the house, thereby taking on your job and hers... IF you want to do something really special to a mommy... and you have the means... get her a mommy's helper! SOmeone to have around the house all day to do the things that she cant get to/needs a break from... NO MOM OF MULTIPLE CHILDREN WILL EVER TURN THIS AWAY... PLUS IT KEEPS YOU FROM BECOMING CONSUMED BY HER JOB BASICALLY LETTING HER WALK ALL OVER YOU. Now, if you choose to do this, you need to decide how long you are willing to do this, how many days per week (1 or more that is), AND THEN WHEN YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOU CAN AFFORD... sorry for the caps there, give her a card and present your gift and see if she is interested in some temporary help while you work things through in your marriage together. 

Ok, so maybe I did have some advice. I dont know how others feel about this, but I know that a mommy's helper is quite possibly heaven on earth when you have more than one child. That means you can spend time with your kids, some time alone, some time doing chores. Even if you just find a maid from one of the neighbors (that they trust etc), she could be able to get some time to get a nap... she cant take a nap during the day with children those ages... even as babies... that is such a farce! There are always things to be done and the only way to get a nap for stay at home moms is if someone else is there, trust me... being a stay at home mom is my career Good luck!


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

I would give her anything in the world if I could. I don't think I can afford it right now. Money is tight as it is. Even trying to think how we could afford a councilor is hard. She hasn't seen a lawyer yet but has done some research on the process on her own. I don't think she wants that but can't continue on this path. She has been unhappy for a while and I think the only thing that has kept her this long is not knowing how or what to do next. 

She told me yesterday that she has been keeping the change every chance she gets to try and save up some money so she can leave. I didn't know about this. Its been going on for a few months and she has saved up about $120. Knowing that fear of financial obligations has been the only thing keeping her breaks my heart. I won't make it hard for her if that is her choice. I will move out and find someplace and still pay the bills like I have. We only have one vehicle and I told her she can have it because she needs it to take care of my kids. 

I still have a sliver of hope and I want to hold on it to but I fear that its just me being selfish again. One good thing I see that still gives me hope is, we were watching a movie on Saturday night and I fell asleep on the couch and she still woke me up to come to bed. She didn't have to do this.

She still hasn't left but my heart is now broken. Not sure the damage can be undone. I see the problems but it may already be too late. I pray that it isn't and I keep trying to convince myself that we can make it work. I try and tell her how much I want to make this work. I will change not for her but for me. I can be the man that she makes me want to be. On the flip side she seems to keep telling her self and me that it would be best to just split and be done. A clean break and while it hurts will heal. Maybe its what she needs to do to heal. I feel like she doesn't want this anymore than I do but that while I am trying to convince myself that it isn't over, she is trying to convince herself that it is. 


Still trying. I'm persistent by nature as I have shown with evil hurtful ways. Now I'm refocusing that energy into a positive.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

I guess my question at this point is maybe slightly unfair to ask people who only know what I've told without her posting here explaining all her feelings but here it is anyways.

Should I just stop, should I let her go and have the peace that she thinks she will find? Is it fair to her for me to keep on trying?


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## Choose2love (Jul 28, 2009)

I dont think I can answer that without having her side (knowing from her what she is contemplating). Also, think of it this way, she is the one who wants to leave... so just be a good guy until that day comes. If that day doesnt come, then you can look back and be pleased with how you changed for the one you love, and feel lucky that she chose to love you again.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Thank you Choose2love, 

I was thinking the same thing however all her family lives on the east coast, we live on the west coast. She doesn't have a job we only have one car. We don't have a ton of money (3 kids are expensive) leaving is not just her getting in the car and going to stay with her parents. I'm afraid that if she wants to leave I will need to help her and at this point if that makes her happy than I will do it no matter how much it hurts. 

I just don't know if I should quietly keep trying until she finally figures out a way, resenting me for keeping her "captive" or try and keep talking about this with her. She won't ask me for anything (never has) even simple things so I don't think she will ask in this situation. I'm trying really hard to hang on and I know there is only a thread left.


EDIT: I was reading back through my first post and even the topic of my post and realized yet again that I was being selfish still trying to hold on to things that I shouldn't have been. Before I wanted to vent, didn't want to believe that as much was on me. Now I'm looking for help. I appreciate everyone's comments. Some have given me hope, others have set me straight. And for all you that said I should be ashamed of myself .. I am.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

How is it going, SJM?


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Things have been moving forward. We are still together. I have woken up and realized not only how much I have hurt her and our relationship but how much I have hurt myself in the process as well. 

I am committed to growing up and becoming the man that she wants, the husband, the partner, the lover that she deserves. We are talking about things, moving slowly (Although last night we may have moved a little too fast) towards recovery. She still doesn't feel like she loves me but I don't know if it doesn't exist or if its just been locked up inside her chained up by all the bad and hurtful things I have done to her. 

I am working on understanding her and showing her love and respect. I've found new ways to show her I love her without making it sexual and found that these things actually make me feel a thousand times better than sex. I feel a connection even if she doesn't. I realize that it isn't about me and its been all about me for far far too long.

Last night while good, may have been a small set back and I am feeling guilt and fear today but trying to talk to her and work through it. I want to make her feel good without reciprocation. I want her to know that something that feels good can be nice and doesn't have to move on to anything she doesn't feel she is ready for. I feel like we both let hormones and feelings take over the drivers seat, we were able to regain control. I am working very hard to respect her boundaries while at the same time trying to let her know that I understand that boundaries can change on a moments notice. Something that was OK 2 minutes ago might not be now, and visa versa. In the end I should have put the breaks on even if she wasn't. 

Last night started kind of the same as the past few weeks. I came home from work and she was a little depressed. She told me look I haven't done anything around the house today, I just didn't feel like it. I told her that it was OK and understandable and that I wasn't demanding that it must be done and that I now understand that life and marriage is not always a tit for tat. Instead of feeling like, wow you didn't do anything why should I work two jobs. I now feel like, wow you must have had a really hard day for whatever the reason and as your partner its my job to help you out. She made dinner while I cleaned up the dishes and the kitchen a bit (I was trying to be helpful). 

After dinner she wanted to go down on her computer and that was OK with me. I went down stairs with her and played my guitar for a bit and played a game. I asked her if she wanted to play and she didn't seem all that receptive so I just let it go. About 8pm I put the kids in bed and then came back down stairs. She decided that she wanted to watch Hells Kitchen so we moved upstairs to watch TV. 

We sat on the couch eating ice cream and watching TV. I decided that I wanted to give her a foot rub. She seemed receptive and not like she was pulling back so I pulled out a little massager thingy and was tickling her feet with it. She then turned around I used it on her back. I should have stopped there 

After TV we went to bed and massage play continued. I wanted to make her feel good and giving is way better for sure. It made her excited in woman ways she began kissing me very passionatly almost like she wanted to devour my face 

I should have stopped again but I didn't she seemed to be okay, she wasn't telling me no, so I continued to explore with the little buzzer. Everything was about her in my mind. The satisfaction for me was that she was. She told me she was euphoric. I want to prove to her that I do have self control and do not have to take it that next step farther, that its not about me getting off, so we did not have sex but the whole thing was sexual.

So back to today. I feel like I failed I should have said no. I called her up to tell her this. I want her to know that while last night may have been okay, it was still too fast and that we need to slow it down. I want to reassure her that her boundaries are still intact and that I don't expect free reign. 

There are a lot of feelings but I feel guilty mostly for going there. I should have stayed away from her lady parts so I feel sad for that.

In other aspects I feel like I am making great strides to be the person that I truly want to be. I'm sorrowful that it took hitting relationship rock bottom for me to finally wake up when she has been trying to tell me all the way along. 

I know there is not going to be a quick fix and that is part of her fear, she feels like I'm going to think that everything is okay again and I will stop treating her the way she deserves to be treated. I won't I understand. I feel the changes in me.

Long post short for those that may not want to read it all. Doing OK to sum it up I'm "Feeling strangely fine"


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm glad you recognize that you took it too far last night. You need to build up basic trust and the basic relationship well before you move toward sex. Making sex about her was still about you and you know it. You have a real problem around sex and you need to do something about it. 

I know you are married, but this is like starting all over again, from less than square one.

Do you have a self-esteem problem in other areas of your life?


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

I know it, I feel bad for it. I don't want this to totally set us back. I want to show her I love her. I know that I have done some awful things and I just want to show her that I love her.

Self esteem problems? Sure I think to some point.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

The problem is, you've been so focused on sex and while sex can be a way of showing love, it has been pretty damaged on that front so you have to accept that you ain't gonna get it for some time. 

Can you learn to focus on non-sexual touch with your wife, with no crossing boundaries and no flirting with boundaries unless SHE ASKS? I don't know which hand you normally use, but its job for the next several I don't knows, is to take care of your urges. Caution : Use moderation. If you use it as a coping mechanism under these circumstances, we could solve the relational problems only to end up with a performance problem. So be careful there. Be reasonable.

Is there any abuse in your background? I'm wondering how you got to be where you are.


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

OK, I was reading back through this post and just FYI, I am a man not a woman so I had a different Point of view than both of you on this and it was just based on sjm's original post. It just did not sound like something I would condone - as a husband. And BTW, I never say that problems in a relationship are 100% one of the spouses fault. There is always someone to blame more than the other about issues but always, both have contributed but in this case, I just could not condone sjm's actions.

As it turns out on here, it appearst that sjm has come to the conclusion that he needs to work on several things. And that is a great positive step. I am glad to see that he is working on these issues. There is hope for them yet.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

No abuse I can recall. My parents divorced when I was three. I don't know how I got here but I know that I don't want to be. Dobo Masturbation is not an option. Self control is what it's about I've made this about me for far too long. 

I'm not looking for someone to condone my behavior I know itswrong and I need to change it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Why on Earth isn't it an option? It is a very vaild outlet. If it isn't excessive and isn't at the expense of your relationship, it is in fact, a very positive thing. Do you have a religious objection to it?


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## lostluv (May 12, 2008)

dobo,

SMJ said in a previous post that masturbation bothered his wife, that they have discussed it and he agreed not to do so. If he decided to go back to it now she could be very upset by that and it could cause further damage to the relationship.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I think this is something the need to renegotiate. If you think of all of the heartache that could have been avoided in the past if he had only satisfied his own wants and not taken the path he had, and if she had seen the utility in it, this entire situation might be different.

I think SJM needs some counseling and I think his wife could use her own, in part to deal with having been battered and also to understand that masturbation is a part of the spectrum of healthy sexuality. I caution about unhealthy frequency or bringing in outside influences (porn, the all-too-easy-to-reach Internet and real people on the other end of the screen, etc.) but on its own, it is no threat to an otherwise sexless relationship. It allows both parties to have time to work on other things without pressuring one another for sex they know they aren't going to get. It solves more problems than it creates in this case. And I would urge his wife to consider if nothing else, the utility.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

We are just going to take one day at a time for now. I don't feel frustrated with the changes I need to make and I realize that I have just been selfish for a long time. Bad habits were formed that need to be broken.

We have a plan that we are going to try and achieve. We are going to refrain from having intercourse until we BOTH are ready, and after we have renewed our vows to each other. How long until? Neither of us can guess and it would be unfair to try. We are working on reconnecting. I want her to understand that its OK to feel good again and that with time I can show her that I am capable of being the man that she wanted to marry. 

I appreciate all the advise and the reality checks. Thank you all.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

dobo said:


> Why on Earth isn't it an option? It is a very vaild outlet. If it isn't excessive and isn't at the expense of your relationship, it is in fact, a very positive thing. Do you have a religious objection to it?


I disagree about masturbation. I’ve been in a similar situation with my marriage of 15 years (3 kids too). The only way I’d get physical with my wife is if I manipulated her emotionally for sex. Unlike him, my wife was down to getting intimate with me once a month. As an experiment, I had a talk with her about how physical contact is really important to me in a relationship. We too decided to abstain until we were both in the mood. After eight months, I couldn’t take it anymore and went back to the manipulations. 

I masturbated. While it relieves the immediate need, it eventually becomes something I resented her for, further driving a wedge between us. After all, masturbation does not fulfil my need to be loved, and like a lot of guys, sex is my gauge. No one loved me like I loved myself . Plus I should not ever have to feel guilty about having a deep, yearning desire for my wife. I just want her to feel toward me the way I feel about her. Knowing she doesn’t, and probably never will is really painful.

I’d suggest you really look deep at both of you and intimacy. There’s a reason she’s not “putting out”. There’s a reason you need to be physical. If you just abstain waiting for “the moment”, you may end up resenting her for what could be a long wait. You might try scheduled sex. That helped us; We both look forward to Sunday night now and I think the anticipation has led to some mid-week escapades to relieve the sexual tension building up.

Another lesson learned. My wife was convinced she didn’t desire me because she didn’t respect me. So, I started doing a lot of things she asked like house projects, kids, cleaning, etc. because that’s what she thought would change her attitude about me. It really made things worse. She resented me because what she saw was a meek insecure man. I became passive and doing what she told me to do without complaint to smooth out the marriage (I thought I was helping). Inside, I was resentful because I couldn’t complain and had to do all this stuff while she barked orders. Five years wasted, and an affair by her, because we really didn’t explore our true feelings to cut past the surface issues and deciding to place all the blame on me. I shouldn’t of let her place the full responsibility of her libido on me.

So, now we’re working the respect and past resentments too. Basically we are going out of our way to thank each other when we do stuff. We’re also owning up to our mistakes, so there’s more “I’m sorry” going around even for minor things. It’s got us focusing on the positive of each other instead of the negative. 
Hope this helps.....


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I never said it would fulfill his need to be loved. But it does take a different edge off.

Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth?

Racer, you're new. It helps if you read an entire thread before you comment. He's well aware of why he is where he finds himself right now. What we're trying to do is find a way to buy this couple time to sort out their problems with the least amount of discomfort on both sides.


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## 3773519 (Sep 24, 2009)

Honestly im not gonna sit here and read all these responses because in the end of the day everyone has their own opinion and have the right to feel them. Whats funny is that im 25 and my SO is 31 and we've been together for 7 years and I guess i am the man in this situation. I want sex everyday and i nag nag nag nag about it all the time. Now i feel we never have sex and i too, when i see an opportunity feel like hey i might not get sum after this for another month...so in a way i understand him. I would love my SO to want me like he wants his wife after so many years. 

In regards to her "job" listen if shes not paying any bills u need to be the house wife and do the house chores. Its not the hardest thing to do! Like he said she gets to take naps and gets to enjoy raising her kids. I would love to spend more time with my son, and when i was unemployed and my SO was the provider I was making sure he was coming home to a clean house, cooked meal. Why should he have to come home to help out when hes already worked atleast 8 hrs! i would be pissed off like werent you home all day? 

Im aware she is not as sexually interested in sex as much as i am, but come on. If you know your man wants it all the time give it to him but make sure u do something u like as well. I dont think she just let him have it and thats it. It takes two ppl and so he should be trying to please her how and when she wants it. that way she will be more willing to give it up. kind of like well whats in it for me type of thing! Counseling by someone professional is def something i suggest but NOT by the mother. I was be soo pissed off the mother was involved. Who does that?


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I give up. You're not going to read because everyone has their own opinion... Great. So long as the opinion has ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE THREAD. You aren't helping. You are actually hurting. He's miles from his first post. If you cared more about the original poster and his wife than about yourself, you'd know that.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

I'll say it again, my first post was me basicly throwing a temper tantrum not wanting to admit my own faults. Not wanting to admit that I caused this.

I want to state for the record that while she is at home, she with the kids, she has to endure hours and hours of mind numbing toddler shows, songs, crying, begging, and a whole host of things. I don't know how she does it. I love her for being there for the kids and that is enough. She does things around the house. I didn't understand what she was going through and I understand that being upset and depressed kinda removes ambition. 

I go to work 5 days a week, I haven't taken an unpaid day off in about 5 years. She hasn't taken a single day off. On the weekends I don't want to leave the house because I've been gone. That's selfish because she hasn't left the house at all maybe for two weeks at a time or more. This is unacceptable. I know what I need to do and I will not feel resentment for it. I do what needs to be done out of love not obligation. Showing her that I care and helping her out give me a true joy. I will not be her doormat as someone else suggested because she is not like that. I have been 100% focused on me. It stops NOW.

For the first 2 years she did all the work around the house, even mowing the lawn. I was selfish and didn't even realize it. She has been doing her "job". Her job is taking care of the kids. Keeping up the home is our "job" and I lost sight of that. 

Back off on her not doing her "job" she does it and even if she didn't it would be no excuse for me to treat her that way. 

Maybe if he was your H and not your SO you would actually understand something about the partnership that there should be. 

Thanks for not posting again. k thx bye


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

SJM, sorry I won't post again. But your thread totally hit a nerve with me since I was exactly like you about 7 years ago and went down the same road.... it did not work out in my case. I have read and re-read this thread over and over. What you are doing to improve your end of the marriage is not bad since you shouldn't be totally selfish. What is she working on?
I'm not saying I'm a door mat. But after years of "improving me", I had almost nothing left just for me. The things she asked me to change was like a list that kept growing. Think of the changes you are making now; they aren't bad changes. Then fast forward a few months, another discussion, and some more things you could be improving. Now drag that out a decade. I gave myself completely over to the marriage and family: Thing is looking back, my wife did not. She learned that if she had a complaint, she could talk to me about it and I would try to fix it. Over a long time, the original intent gets corrupted into a one-way marriage if you repair just one side of the couple. A marriage is both of you making compromises and working together to make it work.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Racer, I was not talking to you in my other post I was refering to number girl. I have a lot to work on I've been very selfish while she has been selfless. She does the housework. I'm not trying to turn into mr do everything. She does plenty and I need to become her partner. I understand where you are coming from. We are working on becoming a team. She has been doing it all along now it's my turn to be part of the team. While I have loved her I have failed to show her that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I hope things went OK on the weekend for the two of you. I hope you are listening to her and HEARING not only what she says, but what she means.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Trying Dobo, women are mysterious and the code can sometimes be hard to understand. I hope that with age and time, I can understand more and more. 

I truly hope that I am. I know I will still screw up and I will make mistakes and I will not be perfect but I will strive for it. I know she will not be perfect but together maybe we can be.

I've learned some amazing things about my wife recently. Somethings that I had forgotten I knew and somethings I NEVER knew. 

A lot of what she is saying, she has been saying for a long time and I was too stubborn to hear her. I twisted things and made them selfish. I find myself taking what she says a lot more often and trying to view what she is trying to say from her perspective. 

I don't care what religious background anyone comes from but I think this is a great verse from the bible. Its as true as it gets in my opinion and I have not been practicing this.

_Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres._
*1 Corinthians 13:4-7*

I have not shown love. I have said it, I have meant the words but words without actions are empty.


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## Mommybean (Jan 22, 2009)

I don't have time to post a long post on this one today, between work and classwork and everything else. SJM, you can prolly go thru some of my posts and see what my H and I have been thru. While it did not center around our sex life, my H lived many years of our marriage selfish, and not really knowing what team work is. We are in a TOTALLY different place today, and getting stronger each day. I can tell from your posts, that you WANT to change, and I honestly think you see the things you have done to cause how she reacts to you now. Keep on doing what you are doing; I am betting as time goes on you will have MUCH more self confidence also, and that will show in your actions towards your wife. 

That verse you quoted, is on our fridge. My H says that he wants it read when we renew our vows next year. That statement from him, let me know how far he had come, and that he REALLY gets "it" now. I have a feeling YOU really get "it" too, and I wish you and your W the very best.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I am sjm's wife. I came to these forums back in December of 2008 posting in a different section as I was seeking advice as to how to go about leaving him or saving my marriage. I received a lot of advice but it didn't all really apply to our situation. I came to my breaking point a few weeks ago. I knew I could not live like this anymore. I had made up my mind that I wanted a divorce. I still had no idea how that was going to happen being that I was a housewife with 3 small children and viewed myself as having no money, no car and nowhere to go. I brought him to his parents house, completely emotionally broken and proceeded to tell them about what my life was like and why I needed their help to get out of it. Sjm is right in saying I have been telling him about the wrongs all these years but he just wasn't hearing it. By including his parents and making our situation known, he now understands. I had no idea that I was a victim of mental, emotional and sexual abuse. All I knew was that I felt victimized. I felt violated. The sad thing is that my husband didn't even know he was doing this either. 

Knowing now what he has done and how much he has hurt me, he is extremely remorseful. He has turned a new leaf and has vowed to never hurt me like that again. He is trying his hardest to treat me like a queen and right his wrong doings. He has finally become my partner and understands how much I need him to help me out of love and not out of repayment for his services. He is trying his hardest to be as selfless as possible, he is happy to make me happy. I know he feels a tremendous amount of guilt and shame, as well as embarassment as his entire family now is aware of our situation. He is man enough to concede he was wrong and while highly uncomfortable willing to face those who want to question him and speak to him about it. It takes a special man to own up to his mistakes and shoulder everything that has come along with this being that he was mostly to blame. 

Everyday my husband apologizes to me and professes his undying love for me and vows to make things better and swears by God he understands now and will never treat me like this again. While the last 7 years of our marriage has been hellish for me, very one sided and lacking that key ingredient, love, I look forward to many years ahead where healing has passed, forgiveness abounds and a loving partnership has blossomed from the rock bottom depths that we once reached a long, long time ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I also wanted to say that my husband came home when this was first all revealed and he asked me what forum I was using. He wanted to know if we were using the same one? I scoffed at him. We couldn't possibly be using the same forum out of the thousands of forums out there. We are. Not only were we using the same forums to seek help and advice (we've both read each others threads now too) but we were both privately messaging the same person looking for a bit of extra, more private help. To this person, you know who you are and are free to say so yourself, we thank you and appreciate you.

I also wanted to say thanks to the person we pm'd and also to my husband for defending me and also my husband from those who didn't know or understand our situation. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Any wonder why I love this woman?


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Mommybean said:


> That verse you quoted, is on our fridge. My H says that he wants it read when we renew our vows next year.


We plan to renew our vows at some point in the future as well. We both deserve a fresh start and a chance to make it better the second time around. I am truly looking forward to the day when I can say "I do" to the woman of my dreams for a second time.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

SJM, you mean "Any wonder I love this woman?" LOL! 

I'm really glad to hear that the two of you are working this out. It will be easy to fall back into old habits as the crisis winds down. So you're going to have to be vigilant in your behavior and in your thinking. 

Keep up the good work and keep us informed on your progress. Don't be discouraged by occasional setbacks. You will have arguments again and you will have conflict. It is a part of marriage. But try not to be negative and think the world has fallen apart. Just get back on that horse and ride.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

dobo said:


> SJM, you mean "Any wonder I love this woman?" LOL!


I was actually being sarcastic in my own funny way. I sometimes forget that sarcasm can be hard to convey via electronic communications.

I think I will edit now


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You two just made my day. Wow. 

Every happiness, sincerely.


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## norma (Sep 29, 2009)

SJM
Wow, your story is my life. Except I am your wife. My husband and you could be twins. I know exactly how your wife probably feels and I think I know how you also feel.
I will give you my suggestions and thoughts because this is what I would like my husband to do.
Everytime you ask for sex, your wife is most likely reliving every horrible thing you have ever done. If she is like me she doesn't want to but her brain can't help itself. I agree with the other posts that you are best to lay of the sex acts. Don't even bring it up. I would love for my husband to realize that I need his affection but I am not ready for the sex yet. I need light and brief touches of reasurance that maybe he does care how I feel. I would love one night of him coming home and giving me a light kiss, moving away asking about my day. I want my husband to care about me not just about his food and his lack of sex. To me every harsh word and touch takes me right back and it truely makes me hate him. I don't really hate him, I love him with all my heart and want things to be good. I know he has urges (trust me so do I) but I am important too i have recently fingured out and I have come to the decission that I am not going to live like this anymore.
I don't know about you and your wife but with us I can't even give him a kiss goodnight without him thinking that he is going to get some. I can't give him a hug, I don't even want to cook his supper. It hurts me almost as much as he hurts me. Love should be shared and respected. If I were you I think you need to start with the little things. Never push, and respect that she is still there. I think it is a good sign that you are trying and seem to truely care. Remember your actions speak more than your words.
In defence of her on the computer, I know with me that I go on just to forget about my life, where it is going etc. Mind you I don't talk to men or on chat lines but I do vent to my very best friend about some things. I have never told anyone all that has gone on because I know people would be ashamed of me for staying. But I know my husband is not a bad person, that he loves me and that he just can't grasp how he hurts me.
I really wish you both all the best of luck. I pray you have the patience to be able to prove to her how much you love her.


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## norma (Sep 29, 2009)

I guess I missed the last page of posts before I started typing. 
Congrats and god bless.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Thank you. I appreciate you sharing your story. We are moving slowly for the most part towards healing (at least I hope so). I have fears that I will screw up as some habits are hard to break but I can honestly say my heart is changed. 

My priorities were out of whack and now that we have abstained for a while I have been able to sort them all out. I feel a love for her that I haven't felt in a long time.

My largest regret (and I have a bunch) is that it took hitting rock bottom before I would change. She told me, she tried to explain. I just didn't change in my heart. 

One of the best things that happened to us was my wife finally saying look "I can not, will not, live like this any longer." The other thing was us both reaching out on this site. Neither of us knew that the other had posted here. There was a freedom in expressing ourselves without thinking that the other would ever read it. If I had known she would read it I would not have said things, if she had known I would read her post she wouldn't have said things. This forum allowed us to be honest with ourselves without holding back for fear of anger from the other person, or fear of hurting the other person.

I have no idea if she will find the love for me ever again but I can't give up. I must show her that I can be the man that she has been missing for so long.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Update: 

Things are still moving forward. We did hit a speed bump and I am continuing to find out more things about myself, things that I didn't even know I did/do. Self realization sure can suck sometimes :|

We are going to see a counselor tomorrow night.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Good luck to you both. You've been very brave so far. Keep up the good work. Growth is rarely easy.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

A very interesting thread.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Sad, painful, and complex. Not so interesting being the one living it.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

However, an amazing transformation. Please be aware of how positive your changes and acknowledgement have been. The light switch that was thrown illuminates the better part of the East coast... and you're on the West coast! (Darn light polution....)


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