# SEX DRIVE : How do men and women compare...what's your take... your experience?



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Experts say men score higher in libido, while women's sex drive is more "fluid"......







Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?- WebMD

I would like to hear from members here...your thoughts... if you feel this article is balanced.. reasonably accurate...or segments of it needs wiped... and if so....please explain.. give your counter (links, studies)....

I have been corrected a few times when I have written anything to suggest men's brains =







...or when I say "MEN LOVE SEX!!".. "their penis is their 1st love"..... I am reminded women are just as sexual...it's an "equal" split down the middle... that we've been lied too...shamed.. and our culture is holding women back...

It's been said only in the last decade that women are coming forward saying they have a *higher sex drive* over their husbands.. which has been difficult for them -fearing they will be labeled unlady like or something worse... some suggest it's just now being recognized that women are sexual beings...this seems very odd to me... but OK....

On TAM, we surely know it isn't so!!.... it's *not *even true in my own marriage ..I'd calculate my drive as 3 times higher over my H's for a few yrs back...He could hardly handle me!..yet still for our 1st 19 yrs...HE WAS THE HIGHER DRIVE, sexually frustrated partner (even if he tried to stuff it).... I can't deny this...

What are your thoughts, experiences, opinions on this subject..it's a faceted issue .... says in the article.. 


> Study after study shows that men's sex drives are not only stronger than women's, but much more straightforward. The sources of women's libidos, by contrast, are much harder to pin down.
> 
> It's common wisdom that women place more value on emotional connection as a spark of sexual desire. But women also appear to be heavily influenced by social and cultural factors as well.
> 
> "Sexual desire in women is extremely sensitive to environment and context,"


Who's been the Higher drive partner in your marriage.. has it switched over the years ? Then on top of all of this.. did we play a part in squashing our partners libido...for them loosing desire for us....Resentment very common...physiological , psychological etc etc....


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Most of the time I have the higher drive but not always. It fluctuates from time to time. When we were trying to get pregnant he was out of control. For awhile it felt like a chore. But at times she has felt the same way. It also fluctuates with how attractive we are to each other.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

We were always rather balanced. then kids came and I was sexually dead for three years (later it turned out it was due to IUD). Now it seems I want it a little more.

But always I was the more adventorous and kinky one.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

http://m.theatlantic.com/sexes/arch...y-strong-sex-drives-can-men-handle-it/276598/


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

For the first couple of years when we were young, we were pretty well matched. She was even the more adventurous one in some ways. Candle wax, parking lots, etc. In fact, she was the one to suggest sex in the first place (both virgins at the time).

Then we moved in together. Things tapered off quickly. Then we got married. Things tapered off more. Then we had kids. Things effectively died.

We're starting to come around again, little by little, but that sense of adventure she once had is still not to be found.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

I've never been matched with my SO. He wants it everyday while I have no drive at all... I never really want it. 

That's not to say I hate sex... Sex is fantastic. I just don't really need it much and would prefer it only once a month or less.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Exposing The Myth Of The Weak Female Sex Drive | Thought Catalog

My husband and I used to have a similar sex drive, but his dropped after marriage for what ever reason. I have pretty much always had a higher sex drive than him. 

Women will typically self-report having a LD because it's more socially acceptable, but their bodies show a different result. The sex drive of women and men are more similar than different if you look at a bell curve of both sexes. You can also look at outside factors, such as women are most likely responsible for birth control and hormonal birth control many times will dampen a woman's natural sex drive. 

Solutions for Low Libido in Men

1 in 5 men have a LD. That's a pretty big number to go against the myth that men are always sexual.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I'm much higher drive than my wife, but a previous girlfriend was higher drive than me - though not beyond what I was happy to do.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

In my personal experience I have always had the higher drive with the exception of one woman. She could have done it three times a day every single day and it wouldn't be enough. That was the only exception I have found personally. The rest were either close to my level or below. Never been with an LD or No Drive woman though.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

When I first got together with my SO, he told me he was worried he wouldn't be able to keep up with me, but was willing to try. Sometimes he can. Sometimes he can't.

Women like casual sex just as much as men do   | The University Record Online

Science Confirms The Obvious: Men And Women Aren't That Different | Popular Science


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I've always had a healthy drive, and have been pretty even in my relationships. Now though, my drive is much higher than my husbands which is VERY frustrating at times.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I've always been HD. I was much more HD than my XH, which was became more frustrating to me as he became less interested in me. The majority of our marriage was, by most definitions that I've read, sexless. He actively shamed me for my high drive and tried to make me feel guilty and freakish for my drive.

In the two months I was with my first post-divorce boyfriend, I think I had more sex than I did for the duration of my marriage.

I've seriously dated two men since my divorce, and these were the only two men I've been with whose drive matched mine. The unfortunate thing is that the years with my XH did some damage; I'm not as confident or... uninhibited... as I used to be. That has been a challenge for me in my post-divorce dating life.

All my boyfriends prior to my marriage had a lower drive than me, but were happy to oblige. But there was one pre-marriage boyfriend who, once we started having sex, said that we didn't talk enough anymore.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful wife 's article >> Turns Out Women Have Really, Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle It? - Hugo Schwyzer

I read this article and being of a different mindset, it didn't resonate with how I FEEL in some of the things it spoke.. especially trampling on Traditional roles... I will give a few of my thoughts below...

I looked up the author.... I like to get a feel of who someone is/ a little history... here Hugo Schwyzer is a self proclaimed "Male Feminist".. a google search brought up some *very damning* things... that he has admitted to being a FRAUD toxically addicted to female affirmation...that he was a Professor sleeping with his students at Pasadena City College WHILE MARRIED... 

Porn Professor Hugo Schwyzer Comes Clean About His Twitter Meltdown and Life as a Fraud .... this shows his twitter words HERE ...He spoke at sl** walk 2011  HERE ...

I can't remember where it was now, but recently a poster here said that MEN are raped as often as women are, it's just under reported.. Hugo doesn't agree with this...but says at 0:53 "in a FEW cases, women can be the perpetrator, but there is no question the vast majority is men assaulting women".. (Hey there is something I agree with HUGO on!)....

*Now to the article... my thoughts ...*



> *Women want sex just as much as men do, and this drive is "not, for the most part, sparked or sustained by emotional intimacy and safety.*" When it comes to the craving for sexual variety, *the research Bergner assembles suggests that women may be "even less well-suited for monogamy than men.*"


 Ok.. what he is saying is.. WOMEN WANT TO F**K.... THEY LUST.. We have fantasies.. well yeah!!...of course we do! Is it wise to go there just because we want to.. it seems the article feels so when it gets to the "initiation" paragraph.... 

So we are JUST LIKE MEN & don't care about the emotional component... (even some men CARE)....We see it everyday.. not really going to argue this. I can't speak for other women.. *but HUGO does NOT speak for me*.. 

Your article is in opposition to this article *>>* 



> Sex and Emotional Attachment -which speaks my
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess the question to all of us is.. should we give in to our ravenous lust ...or should we weigh what is before us.. I had opportunities in my youth...this one guy I met on the beach. he looked like a rock star.. long blonde hair.. he wanted to take me back to his place..(oh the fantasies I had of that one).. I'm happy I didn't follow the itching between my legs & blow the emotional to the wind.. I may not be with my husband today... it also would have changed how I looked upon Sex and it's deeper meaning & purpose. 



> *Bergner's work puts what may be the last nail in the coffin of the old consensus that women* *use sex* *as a means to get something else they really want, such as enduring monogamous emotional intimacy and the goods and safety that come in marriage with a protector and provider*. In her review, Salon's normally hyperbole-averse Tracy Clark-Flory was beside herself: "This book should be read by every woman on earth," she writes; "the implications are huge."


 What are the implications.. what are they aiming for again? Do we want a world where few care about the enduring monogamous emotional intimacy & Marriage ..do we want men who no longer care to Protect & Provide... that a nail in the coffin on these thoughts should be celebrated ?? I think we should be careful what we are wishing for here. 

I looked up the book..  What Do Women Want?: Adventures in the Science of Female Desire - Daniel Bergner  

Bergner said " Despite the notions our culture continues to imbue, this force is not, for the most part, sparked or sustained by emotional intimacy and safety.” In fact, he argues, “one of our most comforting assumptions, soothing perhaps above all to men but clung to by both sexes, that female eros is much better made for monogamy than the male libido, is scarcely more than a fairy tale." Ok.. again.. what he is saying is:

Any men who believe that women care for monogamy has been lied to.. so you better be a dynamo in bed as female desire REALLY IS >>" base, animalistic and ravenous".. and if you can't please her, she'll leave you!...one of his articles 
 HERE...

I plan to buy this book by the way... I so agree with what he says about our fantasies.. what we really want (after all I am one who is rather SEX CRAZED....a "rape fantasy" --Yes!! ..All things EROTIC are like electric to me.. though on the other hand.. this author appears to not allow room for women who may have a more Romantic view of sexuality. or maybe he does...just not seeing it in the article though..... 



> If Bergner is right, men's and women's libidos are far more similar than previously imagined. If he's right, and the formidable data he marshals suggests he is,* then our sexual scripts need to shift to accommodate this new reality for everyone's sake. Both men and women need to overcome what Atik calls their "wishy-washiness," and be willing to deal with the discomfort that comes from stepping outside of prescribed gender roles.* That's easier said than done; *as Friedman notes in her article, the data suggests that even among the young, a significant majority of both men and women think it's the job of men to make the proverbial "first move.*"


 "for everyone's sake"...well here I am again.. I still PREFER the man to pursue.. treat me like a lady, in showing he has more than a ONS on this mind.. because I DON'T WANT "JUST SEX" da** it!... that doesn't mean I'm not horny however.... IF I DID want casual sex.. then sure..









I deeply desire the romanticism of the man seeking to pursue his lady.. nothing wrong with this view.. or want. 



> Bergner's considerable data suggests that when it comes to initiating sex, straight men and women will be *a lot happier* if they follow the lead of their gay and lesbian friends.


 A lot happier.. opinions are interesting . 



> *The research suggests that though both men and women struggle to extricate themselves from traditional gender roles, women are generally doing a much better job of it than are men.* From the workplace to the university, *women are far more willing to move into traditionally male spaces and adopt traditionally male behaviors than men are to do the reverse.*


 again -this NEED to extricate Traditional gender roles.. am I being too sensitive here? so if I am one who happened to appreciate , even look up to with AWE the differences between the sexes , enjoying those difference, where does that leave ME ? Maybe I don't care to eradicate it all.. 



> *Too many men are still stuck in the "provide, protect, and perform" model that requires women to be passive, focused more on pleasing than on their own pleasure. The "catch-22" in which women find themselves is largely a result of men's fear of being unable to perform up to women's expectations—and to satisfy desires that men have only just begun to realize are as intense and earthy as their own*.


 I don't see a problem with wanting to please our men.. we should deeply admire our men for all they bring... if we don't feel this .. I would think something is missing or he is not treating us right... 

I suppose TOO MANY WOMEN have been passive in the bedroom, putting down their own needs.. is this what they mean.. not speaking up, but just going with the flow -because some how they have been led to THINK this is what women Do... Even though this is not something I personally relate too.. (just never been passive here).. I would cause a ROAR if I was not satisfied .. but anyway.. 

If this is going on.. then YEAH.. I am with you all.. I heartily agree ! :smthumbup:...This should be opened up..caring for your own Pleasure ...be assertive in the sexual.. let your man know what you want [email protected]# Open up the fantasy talk ..... exploring together, so many aids to help you get there today... It should never be ALL about HIM and "just his" pleasure...it's meant to be the most fulfilling giving & receiving. 



> "The sexual landscape (remains) ruled by male desires and insecurities," Amanda Hess writes in her Slate review of What Do Women Want. It is those insecurities (and the specter of the violence into which those insecurities sometimes erupt) that keep men from having their sexual desires fulfilled. As this new book shows, women's desires are fully equal to men's—and equally confined *by men's maddening unwillingness to abandon the useless sexual scripts they themselves have written*.


 What are they calling useless here.. those of us who still like to be pursued in a romantic way with the man taking the lead.. .. women who still feel monogamy is important...why is it assumed if one is of this mindset.. we don't care about our sexual pleasure ?? 

I guess this is how I read this article.. I don't see why it had to rip on traditional anything.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Both my husband and I are HDs. The first 5 or so years of our marriage, I would say that our drives were pretty evenly matched. Then we had a child and for a while, he had a higher drive than I. When I reached my 40s, my drive was higher than his for a while. Now that we are beginning our 50s, I'd say we are back to being evenly matched again. 

We both agreed before marriage that a great sex life was important to the both of us and we have both tried to maintain that throughout our marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Going by my own experiences and the many articles based on valid research, I think this article is spot on.

Of course the article is talking about the overall population, so individuals will experience tremendous variation from the average, probably following a normal distribution, and many (probably most) will experience variations at various times in their life. I have dated many high drive strongly heterosexual women, and I've also met and dated a variety of low to medium drive, sexually malleable bisexual and heterosexual women. All that really matters is that you are sexually compatible (as well as compatible in other ways) to have a good relationship.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I guess the question to all of us is.. should we give in to our ravenous lust ...or should we weigh what is before us.. I had opportunities in my youth...this one guy I met on the beach. he looked like a rock star.. long blonde hair.. he wanted to take me back to his place..(oh the fantasies I had of that one).. I'm happy I didn't follow the itching between my legs & blow the emotional to the wind.. I may not be with my husband today... it also would have changed how I looked upon Sex and it's deeper meaning & purpose.


I think there's an important distinction between the question of how powerful the drive is, and the question of where you (any person) wants to channel that drive.

From your examples here, what I see is that you agree that women (yourself included) do have very strong drives, lots of fantasies, etc. But you want to exercise caution about what to do with that drive.

Which is entirely reasonable, of course. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Bergner said " Despite the notions our culture continues to imbue, this force is not, for the most part, sparked or sustained by emotional intimacy and safety.” In fact, he argues, “one of our most comforting assumptions, soothing perhaps above all to men but clung to by both sexes, that female eros is much better made for monogamy than the male libido, is scarcely more than a fairy tale." Ok.. again.. what he is saying is:
> 
> Any men who believe that women care for monogamy has been lied to..


I had a much different take on this. Rather than interpreting this as "ravenous women will leave (or cheat) on men", I saw it just as pointing out that women are no more inclined (or disinclined) towards monogamy than men are.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

From my experience my drive has always been higher. I could only think of maybe a handful of times at most where my wife was in the mood and I wasn't (but can think of plenty of times in the other direction). The only thing that ever stops me in my tracks is when I have a migraine, otherwise I am ready to go with just a stiff breeze  I do find as well my libido/drive seems to fluctuate with my health. Maybe it is a confidence thing, but as I have gotten into better shape my drive has bumped up a notch. However, I don't necessarily consider a HD a positive thing if it is not matched off with your SO, quite the opposite actually. I have actually wished my libido was much lower as things have been few and far apart the past two years, the frustration is not particularly enjoyable to deal with.

I was talking to a lady at the gym who was actually complaining of the opposite. She wanted sex frequently but her husband had no desire, and you could tell she was truly peeved about it. Then she told me she had been with other women, so who the heck knows where that conversation was going but I got back to my workout quick ....


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

My experience? I know many will disagree but it's definitely my experience that women rarely if ever want sex.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> My experience? I know many will disagree but it's definitely my experience that women rarely if ever want sex.


Is that pre or post wedding cake


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> My experience? I know many will disagree but it's definitely my experience that women rarely if ever want sex.


Dude, then you have been with the WRONG WOMEN!


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Is that pre or post wedding cake


We were ok for awhile...a short while...then things went to hell.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Dude, then you have been with the WRONG WOMEN!


Yep I totally agree


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> *I think there's an important distinction between the question of how powerful the drive is, and the question of where you (any person) wants to channel that drive.
> 
> From your examples here, what I see is that you agree that women (yourself included) do have very strong drives, lots of fantasies, etc. But you want to exercise caution about what to do with that drive.
> 
> Which is entirely reasonable, of course.*


 I do not for a minute believe ALL women are as sexually minded as some of the higher drive female TAMers here (for example) ... but sure.. I'll buy into the fact there are countless women who are embarrassed speaking about sexual wants, talking dirty, wouldn't dare utter a salivating fantasy, would turn Lobster *RED *if masturbation was brought up (that would have been ME back in the day)......somewhat repressed ...due to what they have been taught (though this can be from non religious folks too)...or how they have been treated by character-less men... feel shame for enjoying a little porn...so they hide, some secretly loosing themselves -Romantic novels, hitachi magic wand hidden away - while their husbands have NO idea what is going on under the surface.. what potential that may lurk... 

In my circle of friends, however.... and we're a pretty open bunch.. sex is hardly something the majority of them crave...and believe you .. me.. I've opened such subjects.. have a reputation for it.. (they don't mind..it's a lot of FUN !)... it's more like they do NOT understand men ..the way *I think* men need to be understood in this area...

I've heard far more women whine how their husband's want it all the time, passing comments in my Mops group ..."can't he just give it a rest".... while I was feeling bad for their husbands.... It has annoyed me even...though I didn't shut up just cause I was the odd sex crazed one.... seems many of you have all sorts of HD friends with LD husbands.. this hasn't been my experience in the circles I hang in... Even on Easter, Sister in law leaves the room over my mentioning "Shades of Grey"...

Oh but I did have 1 friend...she was near ready to leave her husband out of frustration..I felt so bad for her, would have supported her in it.... ..   ...then she was put on Prozac, it zapped her drive, and now they get along great ! 



> *Always_alone said*: *I had a much different take on this. Rather than interpreting this as "ravenous women will leave (or cheat) on men", I saw it just as pointing out that women are no more inclined (or disinclined) towards monogamy than men are.*


 Ok.. doing lots of reading on this today....I wouldn't want to deny reality..or history in any way... even if I personally feel monogamy / exclusivity/ loving /sharing with one's soul mate with the intention for "ever after" is the ideal... finding some sadness in it somehow...realizing among my own gender.. this is just not all that important ... 

It is what it IS... Here is an exhausting article -not written by anyone from a fringe group to divide us but a Biological Anthropologist... 

Part 1. Humans are (Blank) -ogamous | Patrick F. Clarkin, Ph.D.......which compares evidence for *promiscuity* and *pair-bonding *in our species, that he speaks of : 10 biological traits indicating that humans have promiscuity built into us to some degree, and that monogamy, or at least lifelong monogamy, does not come easily. 

Just some snippets of this article... I'm sure you would all agree.. 



> A quote: " *“We are not a classic pair-bonded species. We are not a polygamous, tournament species either…. What we are, officially, … is a tragically confused species.” *(Robert Sapolsky)
> 
> ... Heterosexual monogamy remains the dominant, privileged model in Western societies. However, with sex scandals in the news recently (and… always), and with popular books and articles asking whether monogamy is obsolete, a myth, fettered by unrealistic expectations,or in need of amending, it is understandable that people would wonder how ‘natural’ it is. ...
> 
> ...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> In my circle of friends, however.... and we're a pretty open bunch.. sex is hardly something the majority of them crave...and believe you .. me.. I've opened such subjects.. have a reputation for it.. (they don't mind..it's a lot of FUN !)... it's more like they do NOT understand men ..the way *I think* men need to be understood in this area...
> 
> I've heard far more women whine how their husband's want it all the time, passing comments in my Mops group ..."can't he just give it a rest".... while I was feeling bad for their husbands.... It has annoyed me even...though I didn't shut up just cause I was the odd sex crazed one.... seems many of you have all sorts of HD friends with LD husbands.. this hasn't been my experience in the circles I hang in...


Absolutely! Not all women are all that sexual. And many would just as soon rather not. But this is also true of men. It isn't just a simple question of men want it, women don't, and they have to learn to understand and live with each other. It is a question of varying drive levels among people, where both men and women may be LD or HD or somewhere in between.

I also think the stereotypes and assumptions about women's sexuality has done women a great disservice. So often women are raised to think sex is wrong, dirty, shameful, and that there is something wrong with them if they have sexual thoughts and fantasies. This doesn't just lead to shamed hiding of masturbation, but outright suppression.

There is nothing at all natural, biological,or innate about being grossed out by nudity, for example, and feeling the need to fast-forward through any movie scene that hints at naked bodies or sex. This is all learned. 

This doesn't mean, though, that we should be insisting on a sexual free for all, where pair bonding or monogamy is dissed.

Many people, men and women alike, will find that a slew of casual sex leaves them feeling empty and alienated. In the pursuit of sex, they are seeking connection that casual encounters cannot offer. They may have emotional needs for love and acceptance as well as simple sexual drive.

At the same time, insisting on monogamy over all other considerations would also be a mistake, IMHO. What if a person is completely sexually deprived in that situation?

I like the article you posted, that shows we are confused, a mix of possibilities. There is nothing innate or biological about how we channel our drives. How we choose to do that is partly informed by culture, by upbringing, by personal morality, and ideally by what fulfills our authentic selves.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> My experience? I know many will disagree but it's definitely my experience that women rarely if ever want sex.


My experience is close but slightly different: Women rarely if ever go out of their way to have sex.

And I don't think women want sex as much as men. If a woman says she likes sex, but first you have to listen to her talk about her day, then give her a little neck rub, and maybe do the dishes, if that's what she needs, that's fine. But you don't then get to say you want sex as much as a man, because we don't need any of that to get in the mood for sex.

(obviously there are exceptions in both genders)


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Though my experience is limited, and annecdotal, all the women ive been with (except one CSA) are as horny or hornier than me. And I consider myself a medium (3 x week)
Person.


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

Society really does a number on us as a whole-men and women! Women are taught very early how to be a proper good girls by our dress, our speech and our mannerisms. Men are taught how to he-men and as how to be masculine means to get lots, and lots of sex. The girls were to remain virginal and the boys were encouraged to sow their wild oats before settling into marriage. The girls who put out are the wh0res. The boys who had a lot of tail are praise for their pursuits. So on and so on. It's no wonder we're so screwed up about sex. 

Just like most women, I didn't fully came into my sexuality several years into my marriage. Heck, I'm in my mid-40s and started taking an active role in finding my own fulfillment in the bedroom. Society and it's ideas conditions women to be less aggressive and more submissive in the bedroom so if she isn't satisfied its her husband's fault. I felt I wasn't told that I had a right to an orgasm but it was enough that I satisfied my H. It was actually talking with my sisters and friends that I became aware that I wasn't being satisfied in my marital bed.

Our society needs to educate girls that they have a right to be satisfied and it's their responsibility to take control of their satisfaction and it's not the man job to bring you to fulfillment. At best, it should be a mutual goal in the relationship. 

Now, getting off my soap box, I've always been HD. Although I have had to tame my sexual pursuits because I didn't want to be labeled a wh0re.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Don't know and don't care. Not in the least worried about anyone's inner dialogue on how they feel about themselves. Show me what you got, talking about talking about it doesn't count.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> *Absolutely! Not all women are all that sexual. And many would just as soon rather not. But this is also true of men*. It isn't just a simple question of men want it, women don't, and they have to learn to understand and live with each other. It is a question of varying drive levels among people, where both men and women may be LD or HD or somewhere in between.
> 
> I also think the stereotypes and assumptions about women's sexuality has done women a great disservice. So often women are raised to think sex is wrong, dirty, shameful, and that there is something wrong with them if they have sexual thoughts and fantasies. This doesn't just lead to shamed hiding of masturbation, but outright suppression.
> 
> ...


This all makes me wonder though...accepting that there are just as many LD men, I can tell you for a fact that this does not ever come up in male conversation. Easily explained by societal pressure on men to always be DTF. 

I'm wondering if the converse situation exists with these groups of women that SA is referring to. I wonder how many of these women might actually have more of a sex drive than they're willing to admit to, but then they get in these groups where one woman starts the ball rolling with "why doesn't he give it a rest" and everyone just starts nodding and agreeing.


LD man tries to fit in with the guys by pretending to be HD.

HD woman tries to fit in with the ladies by pretending to be LD.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Didn't have time to read the article but I will. Just giving anecdotal evidence here.

Females in my family are vixens. They are extremely driven and fertile. I don't know if high fertility and drive are related but the men are highly driven and fertile as well.

The only time Mrs. Conan and I didn't use protection in our 23 years was an instant pregnancy.

I have found that men are generally more aggressive in pursuit while women are more inviting. That is observation of others, it seems that more women than men have some "doors" that need opened for their sexuality to flow.

I believe that men who have developed good seduction skills encounter far more women with an obviously strong drive.
I will answer better after reading the article.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Until women are not sl*t shamed for doing and wanting the same things men do sexually, and until men are not shamed for NOT being total horn dogs if they are not, then self reported surveys (even anonymous ones) will not be reliable sources of data for this issue. This is why there are still plenty of surveys around that would seem to show that men are horn dogs far more than women.

Two books that challenge this notion...

Amazon.com: Challenging Casanova: Beyond the Stereotype of the Promiscuous Young Male (9781118072660): Andrew P. Smiler PhD: Books

What Do Women Want?: Adventures in the Science of Female Desire: Daniel Bergner: 0884458909098: Amazon.com: Books

There is all kinds of evidence throughout the ages and cultures that our western idea of libido difference between men and women is bulls*t. But self-reporting will still tend to show the marks of what we believe we are supposed to do and want. 

The pressure for women to not want sex and for men to always want sex screws people up from a very young age, and even the people themselves who are affected by it don't always realize it. But once you're screwed up, it is impossible to tell how your natural libido would have been if you had NOT been screwed up.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

If it is really the same, I think we would have the same number of HD women on TAM ready to leave their LD husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

To reinforce what I said before, it was the women in my life who wanted sex right away, whereas I was the one that wanted to wait a bit longer. Go figure.
(Btw, I usually gave in)


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> This all makes me wonder though...accepting that there are just as many LD men, I can tell you for a fact that this does not ever come up in male conversation. Easily explained by societal pressure on men to always be DTF.
> 
> I'm wondering if the converse situation exists with these groups of women that SA is referring to. I wonder how many of these women might actually have more of a sex drive than they're willing to admit to, but then they get in these groups where one woman starts the ball rolling with "why doesn't he give it a rest" and everyone just starts nodding and agreeing.
> 
> ...


I have definitely known HD women who shut themselves up when an LD woman goes on about her husband who won't leave her alone or about how all men are DTF (Curious Wife has described this phenomenon). I have also known several LD men who shut up when another man or even a woman is going on about how all men are horn dogs. They neither confirm nor deny, but they do definitely feel they cannot be honest.

Small groups of friends will tend to be alike. So in SA's example, she is the oddball in her group of friends, but they are alike to each other. In my group of friends, they are like me, but being HD really varies a lot in meaning to different women...example one of my friends who acts HD has never had an orgasm and I don't know if she actually likes sex or if it just gives her a feeling of power and satisfaction to know her man liked it so much. If you judged by her sexual history, it would appear she is clearly HD and also a sl*t (and proud of it). 

I honestly cannot recall EVER in my life hearing a female friend or acquaintance claim she is tired of her husband or partner wanting sex all the time. EVER. Not once. I have heard women saying they don't want to have sex with their partner due to no attraction...but that is not the same complaint. They still wanted sex, just not with that partner, and in many cases they did it anyway.

Also, all my single girlfriends are constantly talking about the LACK of sex and how it sucks and how they hunt for a decent FWB in between boyfriends. Sadly, they audition a guy as FWB and he sucks in bed so he's out, back to the drawing board. This is quite common.

Another issue I think is the fact that men seem to say they "want to have sex with" any woman they feel sexual attraction for. But there's a disconnect here in that feeling sexual attraction does not automatically mean they would take the opportunity for sex if it was there. Men will SAY they are DTF because a hot girl walks by, but if they were given the actual opportunity a lot of them would not want to drop their drawers....why? Because of body image issues, insecurity about whether they would be good or not, and also, the pure and simple thing about NOT KNOWING THIS PERSON AT ALL. Getting up to bat and actually doing it is NOT the same as feeling attracted. Just because seeing her gave him a half woody doesn't mean he would be able to actually go through with it. (Yeah I know a lot of guys will tell me this is wrong, but I actually know it is more true than you think it is for MANY men).

Take the opposite stance for a woman...she may say "no I wouldn't go home with a guy and f*ck him" but she MAY say "oh yeah that dude is HOTTT!" about the same guy. Typically a woman knows that feeling sexual attraction is not the same as saying yes to ACTUALLY having sex with him right here on the spot.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> If it is really the same, I think we would have the same number of HD women on TAM ready to leave their LD husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TAM is not a representative sample of the average man and woman.

There is a certain type of man and a certain type of woman who seek out relationship advice.

These types do not necessarily reflect the rest of their gender, especially as far as libido goes.

I am actually part of a private board that is nothing but HD women with LD men (which used to describe my sitch but no longer does, but I still belong to the board).

When you think about it, all we ever know is what we were told as we were growing up, and then what we see in our experiences. But like attracts like, so we can't always tell from only our own group what is actually happening in the rest of the world.

Still, as it stands right now, there is much actual evidence that the old school idea that men want sex more than women is inherently wrong, yet spouting that idea among ourselves and to our children can actually CAUSE that dynamic to occur.

Remember that only a few decades ago, women couldn't speak up about this AT ALL. It has only been since the invention of the internet that women had any voice about it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> To reinforce what I said before, it was the women in my life who wanted sex right away, whereas I was the one that wanted to wait a bit longer. Go figure.
> (Btw, I usually gave in)





Not sure you can make a case either way based on new relationship hormones. You need to let the dust settle.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Not sure you can make a case either way based on new relationship hormones. You need to let the dust settle.


Why doesn't it count in new relationships when men (around here a lot anyway) are the ones saying that they are DTF but they have to court and beg women to give it up?

What you mean is long term sustained desire...which also changes for both men and women.

But there's no reason to dismiss women who are horny and want sex right away, there are LOTS of them whereas many men think there are not.


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

I believe one in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually molested.
This is a huge number and may be under reported.
I think this has a huge impact of the Hd/Ld conversation.
It is the elephant in the room and throws all assumptions out the window..


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Umm....ok, and how does it skew or impact the HD/LD conversation, especially since the abuse numbers are likely to actually be equal? If people of both genders are equally affected by CSA, what change does this create in the adults?

You do know that some CSA survivors avoid sex and some become hyper sexual right? There's no way to predict how a specific CSA survivor's adult libido will turn out just based on the CSA itself.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can't remember where it was now, but recently a poster here said that MEN are raped as often as women are, it's just under reported..


There is a lot out in the press that misrepresents a CDC report on sexual violence. The press is sensationalizing the results by misreporting the conclusions of the CDC report.

It does not way that men are raped as often as women. It also does not say that men are raped as often by women as women are by men. Fewer men are raped by a long shot and most of those how rape men are men.

Here is some reading for anyone who wants to actually know what the report findings were. Links to the entire report are provided below... the rest of this post are quotes from the reports.


*Key Findings*

The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report | Executive Summary 1

Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and • 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration. 

More than half (51.1%) of female • victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance; for male victims, more than half (52.4%) reported being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger. 


Approximately 1 in 21 men • (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; most men who were made to penetrate someone else reported that the perpetrator was either an intimate partner (44.8%) or an acquaintance (44.7%).


An estimated 13% of • women and 6% of men have experienced sexual coercion in their lifetime (i.e., unwanted sexual penetration after being pressured in a nonphysical way); and 27.2% of women and 11.7% of men have experienced unwanted sexual contact. 


Most female victims of • completed rape (79.6%) experienced their first rape before the age of 25; 42.2% experienced their first completed rape before the age of 18 years. 


More than one-quarter of male • victims of completed rape (27.8%) experienced their first rape when they were 10 years of age or younger.


*Number and Sex of Perpetrators*

Across all types of violence, the • majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator. 

Across all types of violence, • the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.

*Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. *

*Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated by males. *Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_executive_summary-a.pdf


*The Problem of Sexual Violence *

Sexual violence (SV) is a profound social and public health problem in the United States. The range of experiences that pertain to SV is broad and affects females and males across the lifespan. As will be covered in more detail to follow, SV includes both penetrative and non-penetrative acts as well as non-contact forms. Sexual violence occurs when a perpetrator commits sexual acts without a victim’s consent, or when a victim is unable to consent (e.g., due to age, illness) or refuse (e.g., due to physical violence or threats). According to the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS):


1 in 5 women and nearly 1 in 59 men have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime, defined as penetrating a victim by use of force or through alcohol/drug facilitation; 

Approximately 1 in 15 men (6.7%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; 


An estimated 12.5% of women and 5.8% of men reported sexual coercion in their lifetime (i.e., unwanted sexual penetration after being pressured in a nonphysical way); 

More than one-quarter of women (27.3%) and approximately 1 in 9 men (10.8%) have experienced some form of unwanted sexual contact in their lifetime; and 


Nearly one-third of women (32.1%) and nearly 1 in 8 men (13.3%) experienced some type of non-contact unwanted sexual experience in their lifetime. 

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv_surveillance_definitionsl-2009-a.pdf

NISVS Summary Reports|National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey|Funded Programs|Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC

NISVS Summary Reports|National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey|Funded Programs|Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Why doesn't it count in new relationships when men (around here a lot anyway) are the ones saying that they are DTF but they have to court and beg women to give it up?
> 
> What you mean is long term sustained desire...which also changes for both men and women.
> 
> But there's no reason to dismiss women who are horny and want sex right away, there are LOTS of them whereas many men think there are not.


I don't think random one-off encounters are fueled by the same hormone cawktail (really, with the naughty word filter?) that early relationships are. I get what you're saying about not dismissing straight-up horny, but i'm talking more about that "limerence" stage of a relationship, where you're so giddy about your partner you'll drop trou more easily than you would 20 years later. The two just don't feel the same to me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> In my circle of friends, however.... and we're a pretty open bunch.. sex is hardly something the majority of them crave...and believe you .. me.. I've opened such subjects.. have a reputation for it.. (they don't mind..it's a lot of FUN !)... it's more like they do NOT understand men ..the way *I think* men need to be understood in this area...
> 
> I've heard far more women whine how their husband's want it all the time, passing comments in my Mops group ..."can't he just give it a rest".... while I was feeling bad for their husbands.... It has annoyed me even...though I didn't shut up just cause I was the odd sex crazed one.... seems many of you have all sorts of HD friends with LD husbands.. this hasn't been my experience in the circles I hang in... Even on Easter, Sister in law leaves the room over my mentioning "Shades of Grey"...


This just goes to show how different individual experiences are. 

Of all my female friends and family members I know of one, that's right one, who does not crave sex and who does not understand why their SO/husbands want it often. Most of the women I've discussed this with understand why their SO/H wants sex often because so do they.

And that one LD woman I know... she's married to a LD guy. So they are well matched.

This is the danger of relying on one's own experience and friends' experiences to determine what others are like.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I don't think random one-off encounters are fueled by the same hormone cawktail (really, with the naughty word filter?) that early relationships are. I get what you're saying about not dismissing straight-up horny, but i'm talking more about that "limerence" stage of a relationship, where you're so giddy about your partner you'll drop trou more easily than you would 20 years later. The two just don't feel the same to me.


It isn't the same for men, either. They also have less sex later in relationships.

BUT...who cares what random one-off encounters are fueled by anyway? If a woman wants one, and you want to "dismiss" it, this is exactly the kind of thinking that causes men to think women want sex less than men do. Even when she DOES want it randomly, you (not picking on you but you are on the saying it) want to immediately come up with a reason OTHER than that she just wanted sex. Why do that?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> It isn't the same for men, either. They also have less sex later in relationships.


True enough!



Faithful Wife said:


> BUT...who cares what random one-off encounters are fueled by anyway? If a woman wants one, and you want to "dismiss" it, this is exactly the kind of thinking that causes men to think women want sex less than men do. Even when she DOES want it randomly, you (not picking on you but you are on the saying it) want to immediately come up with a reason OTHER than that she just wanted sex. Why do that?


It was never my intention to dismiss random encounters. When I responded to Jorgene, I simply had that limerance phase of relationships on my mind because my thoughts just naturally go in that direction when it comes to sex. I thought that's what he was referring to. If he was referring to just taking somebody home to bang situations, then yeah i totally get your point.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> If it is really the same, I think we would have the same number of HD women on TAM ready to leave their LD husbands.


I think that there are a few reasons why there are fewer women on TAM complaining about husband's do not want sex.

Men speak openly about their wives/SO who do not want sex as often because that seems to be part of the stereo type that is fed in our culture. So it's easy for men to be open about this.

Women do not speak openly about a husband/SO who does not want sex because we are taught that men want sex all the time. So women with husbands who don't want sex have been shamed into believing that they are the problem. After all if every man wants sex all the time, then the problem must be that the woman is REALLY undesirable... it's all her fault.

TAM is a self-selecting. The people who post here post because they find it a community that they think will support them. The more men who are here, the more men who will come. There is a lot of support for men in low/no-sex marriages. There is not a lot for women here.

There is a good book that talks about a men who make their marriage near-sexless or sexless. The study reported on in the book found that men are as likely to make a marriage sexless as women are. Neither gender has a monopoly on this.

Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jorgegene said:


> To reinforce what I said before, it was the women in my life who wanted sex right away, whereas I was the one that wanted to wait a bit longer. Go figure.
> *(Btw, I usually gave in)*


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> This all makes me wonder though...accepting that there are just as many LD men, I can tell you for a fact that this does not ever come up in male conversation. Easily explained by societal pressure on men to always be DTF.
> 
> I'm wondering if the converse situation exists with these groups of women that SA is referring to. I wonder how many of these women might actually have more of a sex drive than they're willing to admit to, but then they get in these groups where one woman starts the ball rolling with "why doesn't he give it a rest" and everyone just starts nodding and agreeing.
> 
> ...


From my experience, yes LD guys and guys who will not have sex with their wives often pretend to be HD and hot to trot when sex comes up in discussion with other guys. Some even go so far as to lie and say that their wife does not want sex. 

People do what they feel that they need to to fit in with a group.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> It was never my intention to dismiss random encounters. When I responded to Jorgene, I simply had that limerance phase of relationships on my mind because my thoughts just naturally go in that direction when it comes to sex. I thought that's what he was referring to. If he was referring to just taking somebody home to bang situations, then yeah i totally get your point.


I think that no matter which one it was, it shouldn't be dismissed.

I agree that limerance makes people horny...BOTH men and women. 

I also think a lot of men believe they "want sex all the time" because they are actually crushing on a specific woman a LOT. Men are tender and gaga over a girl very frequently. Some men crush on girl after girl after girl and want sex with that girl but not necessarily "all hot girls", like some people tend to think.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

From Amazon on the book Challenging Casanova that I linked on the previous page:

Changing perceptions about male sexuality
In his groundbreaking new book, noted expert on teenage and adult masculine behavior Andrew Smiler debunks the myth that teenage boys and young men are barely able to control their sex drives, which may lead to destructive hyper-sexuality, unwanted pregnancy, and sexually transmitted diseases. Dr. Smiler helps us recognize that the majority of boys and men do not fit this stereotype and that boys’ sexual development is multi-faceted. He also shows how this shift in attitude could help create young men who are more mature, and have better relationships with partners and friends.

*Explains how the Casanova Complex has developed over time and how it can hurt young males.
*Provides the latest research on male sexuality, including information from the author’s own studies.
*Offers guidance for parents and counselors of boys who want to help them develop lasting and meaningful relationships, as well as for the parents of girls who are dating.
*This book dismantles the stereotype of boys as driven only by an obsession with having intercourse with multiple partners, and calls for deeper growth and understanding of modern masculinity.

(end quote)

I have read this book and also did a book review of it. The evidence within paints an entirely different picture than the stereo type people believe. If we would actually spread facts around instead of folk myths, we could really make some progress.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Still, as it stands right now, there is much actual evidence that the old school idea that men want sex more than women is inherently wrong, yet spouting that idea among ourselves and to our children can actually CAUSE that dynamic to occur.
> 
> Remember that only a few decades ago, women couldn't speak up about this AT ALL. It has only been since the invention of the internet that women had any voice about it.


Societal attitudes do indeed cause a lot of the sexual dynamics.

Before the early 1900's. It was considered a scientific and medical fact that women did not enjoy sex. After all, most women do not have orgasms from PIV. Women only had sex because they had to service their husbands.. the old wifely duty. This was a 'fact' that was arrived at my male researchers and doctors who did not bother to actually talk to women about it. For a long time women and men were taught this.

If a woman showed any desire for sex, it was considered a medical illness that had to be cured quickly... this illness called "hysteria" was a medical issue since at least the 1300's.

The reason that the vibrator was invented is an interesting bit of this 'medical/scientific' point of view.

"women's sexual pleasure was the furthest thing from the minds of the male doctors who invented vibrators almost two centuries ago. They were interested in a labor-saving device to spare their hands the fatigue they developed giving handjobs to a steady stream of 19th century ladies who suffered from “hysteria,” a vaguely defined ailment easily recognizable today as sexual frustration. Therein hangs a strange tale that provides quirky insights into both the history of sex toys, and cultural notions about women’s sexuality.

Until the 20th century, American and European men—including physicians—believed that women did not experience sexual desire or pleasure. They believed that women were simply fleshy receptacles for male lust and that intercourse culminating in male ejaculation fulfilled women's erotic needs. Women were socialized to believe that “ladies” had no sex drive, and that duty required them to put up with sex in order to keep their husbands happy and have children.

Not surprisingly, these beliefs left an enormous number or women sexually frustrated. They complained to doctors of anxiety, sleeplessness, irritability, nervousness, erotic fantasies, feelings of heaviness in the lower abdomen, and wetness between the leg. This syndrome became known as “hysteria,” from the Greek for uterus."


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201303/hysteria-and-the-strange-history-vibrators


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Another thing to keep in mind is that viagra didn't used to exist.

So if a man was faced with ED, he not only had no way to work around it, he also had no one to talk about it with. He would be shamed into silence. Although at the same time, it was generally understood by people that this happened to men in middle age, and they naturally had less sex. This meant that wives of men who had ED suffered in silence as well. This was a really big deal for some women at the time, yet since it wasn't any man's fault, no one said much about it. It was just understood that it was a bummer.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This scene from Guess Who's Coming to Dinner explains what I'm getting at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HBhLZgZcSI


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> *If a woman showed any desire for sex, it was considered a medical illness that had to be cured quickly... this illness called "hysteria" was a medical issue since at least the 1300's.
> 
> The reason that the vibrator was invented is an interesting bit of this 'medical/scientific' point of view.*


Another article on that here *>* Vibrators and Clitoridectomies: How Victorian Doctors Took Control of Women’s Orgasms

A movie made about this - (never seen it ).... 



> Hysteria: Movies & TV
> 
> HYSTERIA is a romantic comedy wrapped around the surprising story of the first electro-mechanical vibrator, invented by happenstance at a time when the very peak of Victorian prudishness coincided with the dawn of the electrical age. London. 1880. Dr. Mortimer Granville (Dancy) is torn between the "proper" doctor's staid and static world of success and acceptance and a more progressive and fulfilling, but frowned upon, experience. Tossed out for his forward-thinking ideas by the medical establishment, Granville finds a position with Dr. Robert Dalrymple, a highly respected and successful doctor, with a very popular private practice specializing in treating women diagnosed with Hysteria.


A little history >>


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> Changing perceptions about male sexuality
> In his groundbreaking new book, noted expert on teenage and adult masculine behavior Andrew Smiler debunks the myth that teenage boys and young men are barely able to control their sex drives, which may lead to destructive hyper-sexuality, unwanted pregnancy, and sexually transmitted diseases. Dr. Smiler helps us recognize *that the majority of boys and men do not fit this stereotype and that boys’ sexual development is multi-faceted. *He also shows how this shift in attitude could help create young men who are more mature, and have better relationships with partners and friends.
> 
> *Explains how the Casanova Complex has developed over time and how it can hurt young males.
> ...


I'm a little confused here.. you give a link about WOMEN not caring about monogamy.. that we've all been lied to.. they don't need the emotional connection any more than men do....you give Always alone a Like on her link "Women like casual sex just as much as men do "...

Then you do a post LIKE THIS....that *the majority of MEN really just want lasting relationships*, dating even!... and aren't into many sex partners.. Ok... don't get me wrong.. LOVE THE POST..:smthumbup:... sounds like our sons.. how their father was.... but I don't see this as the norm in today's younger generation by any means...on this -I'll say "we're surely NOT there yet - more education, changing of hearts & minds needs done"...surely not seeing it on college campuses...... 

Would I love to see this in our future men...HE** YEAH !! .... Sounds like a great book.. might consider picking that one up.. though I think we got it covered in how we have raised our sons -in regards to treat women..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have definitely known HD women who shut themselves up when an LD woman goes on about her husband who won't leave her alone or about how all men are *DTF* (Curious Wife has described this phenomenon). I have also known several LD men who shut up when another man or even a woman is going on about how all men are horn dogs. *They neither confirm nor deny, but they do definitely feel they cannot be honest.*


 *What is DTF??* 

I had a conversation with Husband earlier tonight asking if he feels the majority of people DO this (downplay, go with the flow) when they get around a group of friends, etc........ then I asked "Do you know anyone who doesn't do this?" ....I knew the answer .. he says >> "*YOU*" ... adding I go out of my way to be different.... 

I gotta keep it Real....it's gotten me some looks over the years...it does liven a conversation..though I am generally NOT the one to open these subjects.. well it depends.. but when they are opened. I LIKE to throw some bones in there.. something to chew on.... 

I have been bold enough (or just plain stupid) to bring up enjoying some erotic/ dare I mention PORN to spice up the sex life -around some christian friends at one of my parties.. Oh they were all laughing..WITH ME....we had a GREAT Time ! or so I thought .........then I got this FB message later that night from one of them... I guess she was feeling guilty/ convicted ...and well.. that didn't go over so well..  

Going with the flow for the sake of fitting in.. naahh...not IF I know the people.. NEVER... even my H doesn't do this....he is quieter for sure.. not one to jump in ...but if called out, asked a question.. for instance.. he'd tell it "like it is" too. 

Here is the thing.. how do you get the human race to be more HONEST ....I suppose the truth comes out *more so* (obviously) in these anonymous studies then.. since How people act, what they say -seems meaningless -depending on who they are around & how the conversation goes!..that's a shame then.... 



> *Small groups of friends will tend to be alike. So in SA's example, she is the oddball in her group of friends, but they are alike to each other*.


 This is the Fun of pushing the bar just a little... then I openly share something.. which is opening the door for some dialog..I try to make it comfortable for anyone.. 

There was this one lady in my Mops group.. forgot about her.. she went to our church.. she ALWAYS had a higher sex drive over her husband, she shared how they watched porn & everything before they married (bet she didn't share that with too many others !)... but she also has some hormonal issue that's out of whack...her voice is deeper , she even has to get her chin waxed on a regular basis or she will darn near grow a beard....I can't remember what it's called...obviously higher TEST in her body. 

I've had a couple women coming to me sharing about their sex lives privately .. so I don't think these women are lying to me -with the one on one...one wanted to know ..what's the secret, what am I on. ha ha...admitting it just wasn't there...that's a struggle for her.. Another.. her H had a porn addiction, disgusted her.. but she also couldn't have sex .. it was painful after a bad car accident she had .... just a really difficult situation there.. 



> *Elegirl said*: *This is the danger of relying on one's own experience and friends' experiences to determine what others are like*.


 We are all speaking out of our personal experiences here.. about ourselves and about what we have seen around us, among our friends.. 



> *Elegirl said* Before the early 1900's. It was considered a scientific and medical fact that women did not enjoy sex. *After all, most women do not have orgasms from PIV. Women only had sex because they had to service their husbands.. the old wifely duty.* This was a 'fact' that was arrived at my male researchers and doctors who did not bother to actually talk to women about it. For a long time women and men were taught this.


 Maybe my one Grandmother felt his way (Guessing) -that Grandpa had a high drive I know.. but I can't say I ever FELT or was taught any of this...never looked upon sex as though I am just there to PLEASE HIM, some wifely duty... . I very much wanted that union as much as he....I've always orgasmed easily from my own , his hands ...and PIV.. so it makes sense I loved / craved, wanted sex ...even if he CRAVED IT more often than I was thinking about it .... 

IF my husband was a selfish lover, I would have knocked him over the head...







...I wouldn't have put up with that... I WANTED MY "O" -can I say- as MUCH AS THE MAN here !! ...He knew that and I was very active in getting it..... even if I did want the lights dim & had a few hang ups.. 

Now.. on the other hand.. one of my Best friends...she has told me she has NEVER had on "O"..(a # of partners but they were all SELFISH -just about them)...I don't think any of them has given her oral.... she is newly married again (almost 50 yrs old).. then was in a bad accident.. we haven't had this discussion since then....with so much going on with her body being broken, hip replacement & all...but she IS one of those women who felt ....since she doesn't get much from it ..she can "take it or leave it" ...so it's about pleasing the man... I mean.. what does ONE do with that. some women DO NOT ORGASM.. no matter what the man does.. 

I've been on those threads where the women feels so pressured because HE WANTS SO BADLY to get her there.. he'd do anything.. then they both find it frustrating... these seem difficult situations to wade through. 

This article says : "Female sexual dysfunction , which encompasses the inability to orgasm, is very common—as high as 43 percent, according to some surveys—and has been a topic of much debate and medical investigation lately," (now that sounds AWFULLY HIGH!) 

Surprising Facts about Women's Orgams

This article says "About 75 percent of all women never reach orgasm from intercourse alone -- that is without the extra help of sex toys, hands or tongue. *And 10 to 15 percent never climax under any circumstances.*" Sex Study Says Female Orgasm Eludes Majority of Women -

See *my* Non -orgasmic friend" is very different from how FW has described *her* non-orgasmic friend >> 



> *Faithful wife said*: In my group of friends, they are like me, but being HD really varies a lot in meaning to different women...example *one of my friends who acts HD has never had an orgasm and I don't know if she actually likes sex or if it just gives her a feeling of power and satisfaction to know her man liked it so much. *If you judged by her sexual history, it would appear she is clearly HD and also a sl*t (and proud of it).


So how does one even ANSWER how much a woman loves sex, what is HD to her (# of romps, orgasmic pleasure, Emotional closeness, the thrill of the "power view" over the man -being her fulfillment)...with all these variations.. No wonder we can't nail it down! And how does one measure her TRUE satisfaction -holding an ongoing steady desire? 



> *I honestly cannot recall EVER in my life hearing a female friend or acquaintance claim she is tired of her husband or partner wanting sex all the time. EVER. Not once. I have heard women saying they don't want to have sex with their partner due to no attraction...but that is not the same complaint. They still wanted sex, just not with that partner, and in many cases they did it anyway*.


 Ok.. so then your point of view.. again.. due to what you have seen among friends being very consistent is.. WOMEN just aren't LOW DRIVE at all.. so when they don't want it.. it's pretty much RARELY hormonal but they have LOST attraction to their men in the vast majority of these cases....

So when a woman comes here saying.. she just doesn't feel it anymore but still finds her husband attractive, she swears it's not him...but really we are thinking IT HAS TO BE.. because it's so rare for a women to truly be low drive.. am I understanding this right ?? 

Among my friends.. I have clearly seen a case where she was overweight (more than him) -he was overweight.. ..just BLAH with each other.. we took her to see the Chippendales and MY OH MY... she was screaming , hooping & hollering.. if one of those guys could have picked her up & rocked her.. she'd be all over that.. She went up on stage & they danced around her. the Wildness I seen come out of some of those women...well .. it was quite Eye opening..







...Is this where we need some new NOVELTY ?? 



> Another issue I think is the fact that men seem to say they "want to have sex with" any woman they feel sexual attraction for. But there's a disconnect here in that feeling sexual attraction does not automatically mean they would take the opportunity for sex if it was there. Men will SAY they are *DTF* because a hot girl walks by, but if they were given the actual opportunity a lot of them would not want to drop their drawers....why? * Because of body image issues, insecurity about whether they would be good or not, and also, the pure and simple thing about NOT KNOWING THIS PERSON AT ALL. Getting up to bat and actually doing it is NOT the same as feeling attracted. Just because seeing her gave him a half woody doesn't mean he would be able to actually go through with it.* (Yeah I know a lot of guys will tell me this is wrong, but I actually know it is more true than you think it is for MANY men).


 I don't see anything wrong with this...in reality , they should be insecure.. they don't know each other... maybe that's a blessing.. gives a couple a chance to start out S L O W L Y .... see if they have a few things in common...do they even want to get closer to each other.... build upon a foundation of trust ...with some sexual tension/ anticipation.... and his confidence will grow along with hers.. together.. that's all well & good.. 

Still don't know what DTF means.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm a little confused here.. you give a link about WOMEN not caring about monogamy.. that we've all been lied to.. they don't need the emotional connection any more than men do....you give Always alone a Like on her link "Women like casual sex just as much as men do "...
> 
> Then you do a post LIKE THIS....that *the majority of MEN really just want lasting relationships*, dating even!... and aren't into many sex partners.. Ok... don't get me wrong.. LOVE THE POST..:smthumbup:... sounds like our sons.. how their father was.... but I don't see this as the norm in today's younger generation by any means...on this -I'll say "we're surely NOT there yet - more education, changing of hearts & minds needs done"...surely not seeing it on college campuses......
> 
> Would I love to see this in our future men...HE** YEAH !! .... Sounds like a great book.. might consider picking that one up.. though I think we got it covered in how we have raised our sons -in regards to treat women..


I'm showing and saying this, SA:

Both men AND women want relationships. First and foremost, this tends to be what we want. Within relationships, almost everyone wants sex, at least at first. The stereo type is that only women want relationships, but that isn't true. Men want them too, and that's how and why we easily pair up like we do. 

But on the other end, some men AND women also want casual sex. It is not true that men are more wired for sleeping around and women are more wired for monogamy, that was a myth. So I'm pointing out that yes, we all know some men want casual sex, but so do the same amount of women. That's how it works out...those people find each other and get it on. The stereo type is that men want this and women don't. Not true.

And I totally agree about your boys, and I even thought of you when I wrote the blog post review on that book. I do highly recommend it. But I also feel strongly that we need to stop shaming girls and women for being "too sexual". It causes rampant problems with sexual functioning later in life. Obviously we can't shame the boys either, for either being "too sexual" or not sexual enough (we do both types of shaming to boys).

There is such a thing as healthy casual sex (and non-monogamous sex), and a lot of people are doing it.

There is also a huge amount of healthy highly sexual monogamous people. And monogamous not so sexual people, both men and women.

Both groups and everyone in between are a spectrum of sexuality. When you spread it across everyone, it does not appear that "men want sex more than women" is true. We ALL want sex of varying types and degrees of intimacy and commitment.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Faithful wife said:* *And I totally agree about your boys, and I even thought of you when I wrote the blog post review on that book.*


 Where is the Review.. I want to read it.. Amazon has only 3 very short ones.... 

 Challenging Casanova: Beyond the Stereotype of the Promiscuous Young Male : Books


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Elegirl said:
> 
> 
> > This is the danger of relying on one's own experience and friends' experiences to determine what others are like.
> ...


That is the point. We all have different experiences. That pretty much tells us that there is no one level of sexual desire experienced by all women. It’s an individual thing. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Elegirl said:
> 
> 
> > Before the early 1900's. It was considered a scientific and medical fact that women did not enjoy sex. After all, most women do not have orgasms from PIV. Women only had sex because they had to service their husbands.. the old wifely duty. This was a 'fact' that was arrived at my male researchers and doctors who did not bother to actually talk to women about it. For a long time women and men were taught this.
> ...


Those attitudes started to change in the early 1900’s. By the time you were born those changes were pretty widespread. 

One of my sisters was married to a man who thought that feminism had ruined women because it taught women that they were supposed to enjoy sex and have orgasms. He insisted on daily sex and made it only about him getting his. She eventually left him over it… not soon enough either.


SimplyAmorous said:


> Faithful wife said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly cannot recall EVER in my life hearing a female friend or acquaintance claim she is tired of her husband or partner wanting sex all the time. EVER. Not once. I have heard women saying they don't want to have sex with their partner due to no attraction...but that is not the same complaint. They still wanted sex, just not with that partner, and in many cases they did it anyway.
> ...


Not sure that we should be ignoring what a person tells us. Taking that approach would be as wrong headed has what we usually see where it's assumed that the person who is not interested in sex is just a mean, selfish person or has a hormonal problem.

Each individual is a unique case.

Studies that have been done on why some men and some women do not want sex with their spouse show that most of the time, the reasons that a man or woman does not want sex with their spouse is because of anger and/or resentment making them lose attraction to their spouse. This happens in about 20% of all marriages with men and women choosing to go near-sexless or sexless.

Sometimes, it's a process of elimination to find out the cause of what appears to be LD in either a man or a woman. Starting with things like look at medications, get hormone testing, and look for other possible medical causes. If there is a medical reason then hopefully it can be fixed. If it's not a medical reason then other things come into play.. trauma (say from CSA). If trauma like CSA is ruled out, then the relationship/marriage is most likely the problem.


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## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

Women want sex within a context of a relationship. When men are faced with the doom and gloom of one woman for the rest of their lives, is where you see congregations of women talking about sex drive. Women for the most part can't handle casual sex like men can. There's a full blown industry to satisfy a man's urge. There are sex tourism industries for women but not on the same scale as men. Men commit crimes and start wars over women. Even if it's just casual sex, women need some type of emotion attached to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Elegirl said:*
> *One of my sisters was married to a man who thought that feminism had ruined women because it taught women that they were supposed to enjoy sex and have orgasms. He insisted on daily sex and made it only about him getting his. She eventually left him over it… not soon enough either*.


 Was he one of those who acted like he cared about her pleasure while dating, did she too fall into this belief system that women aren't supposed to care about sex? ... I still can't help but think MANY WOMEN well knew this wasn't true -no matter what was written, spoken or tabooed through the ages...

One of the books making a case for women's orgasmic Pleasure was The Hite Report: A National Study of Female Sexuality  1st published in '76 by SHERE HITE, a feminist, cultural anthropologist recognized for her work on Psychosexual behavior & gender relations.. 



> In 600 pages... To answer sensitive questions dealing with the most intimate details of women's sexuality, Hite's innovation was simple: she asked women, a lot of them, everything--and published the results. 100,000 women, ages fourteen to seventy-eight, were asked what they do and don't like about sex; how orgasm really feels, with and without intercourse; how it feels not to have an orgasm during sex; the importance of clitoral stimulation and masturbation; and to name the greatest pleasures and frustrations of their sexual lives, among many other questions.
> 
> The Hite Report declares that orgasm is easy and strong for women, given the right stimulation; that most women have orgasm most easily during masturbation or clitoral stimulation by hand; that sex as we define it is a cultural institution, not a biological one; and that attitudes must change to include the stimulation women desire...another wrote outside of PIV..."women can orgasm easily & efficiently with clitoral or exterior stimulation of the vulva"


 I found a page in the book  HERE -where it speaks of the FRUSTRATION leading to RESENTMENT women Feel -when dealing with men/ husbands who only care about their own sexual needs..how this affects them -in their own words... 



> "Generally I find men unable to accept arousal alone, they demand fulfillment , their own, of course- but rarely mine"
> 
> "It's a a big let down & makes me very quiet & sad when I don't orgasm and he is already lying there quiet & happy , not interested anymore."
> 
> ...


So pretty much these examples above .. this was your Ex BIL's selfish lover ways ...which led to your Sister being full of resentment & left him.. Did she find a better lover then!? 



> *Elegirl said:*
> *Not sure that we should be ignoring what a person tells us. Taking that approach would be as wrong headed has what we usually see where it's assumed that the person who is not interested in sex is just a mean, selfish person or has a hormonal problem.*


 yes -jumping to these conclusions IS far* too easy*... it's always DEEPER than this....then we have to wade through if the person is "self aware" enough to EVEN KNOW what is the root cause .... True , on these anonymous forums / anonymous studies.. the truth should be easier to give.. but face to face.. it seems so many can not even talk about Sex!! ... Embarrassment, fear of hurting the other, fear of rejection...being shamed, what to do about orgasms is another one -that not everyone agress ... how many FAKE it , as to not hurt her man's EGO..and this alone causes undue frustration internally for woman.. She's damned if she does say anything..and damned if she doesn't.... to the point of causing her to loose all interest.. 

What are the REAL stats for FAKING? 

Sorry, guys: 80 percent of women fake it - Health - Sexploration | NBC News This sounds WAY TOO HIGH !

This article says:"believe it or not, according to the Sex Files, over 70% of women (and hey, 25% of men) admit to faking the feeling. 

Faking it - AskMen

this article  says "A stunning *26 %* of women said that they fake it “*every time*.” Still, a third of women said they “never” feign their climax." 

It all comes down to this though, doesn't it.. taken from: 

Why Do Women Fake Orgasm? Faking may look like a good option but the long term cost of faking is sky high. 



> ....No wonder women end up faking orgasms! It can easily look like the best option. The obvious consequence is that you don’t get to have a real orgasm, but that’s just the beginning. When I was in my twenties I was not exactly faking, but let’s say wildly exaggerating, and was lucky enough to get called on it. The man was very disappointed in my lack of authenticity. That was a significant lesson for me. I realized that I wanted to be with men who were aware enough to see through the pretense, and who valued transparency, so faking didn’t get the results that I wanted.
> 
> The consequences may be even worse if the guy doesn’t catch on. As the woman continues to do what’s expected, her resentment builds. She loses respect for the man. There’s no real intimacy. It ends up killing her authentic sexual appetite. Not only does she miss the opportunity to discover what kind of stimulation would really be satisfying, but she develops a storehouse of anger and nothing kills sexual connection faster than anger.





> *Elegirl said*: *Each individual is a unique case.
> 
> Studies that have been done on why some men and some women do not want sex with their spouse show that most of the time, the reasons that a man or woman does not want sex with their spouse is because of anger and/or resentment making them lose attraction to their spouse. This happens in about 20% of all marriages with men and women choosing to go near-sexless or sexless*.










I feel it *IS* the *#1 reason*.. why I did this thread on it ....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html



> *Elegirl said*:
> *Sometimes, it's a process of elimination to find out the cause of what appears to be LD in either a man or a woman. Starting with things like look at medications, get hormone testing, and look for other possible medical causes. If there is a medical reason then hopefully it can be fixed. If it's not a medical reason then other things come into play.. trauma (say from CSA). If trauma like CSA is ruled out, then the relationship/marriage is most likely the problem*.


 I wouldn't disagree with any of this.. and after all this has been laid out.. opened up... if one is left with a partner on either side who isn't willing to come half way to please ....just plain indifference, stubbornness, rejection to our desires... I can see why anyone would have to get out... we need a loving, caring , giving partner for a satisfying sex life..


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Tubbalard said:


> When men are faced with the doom and gloom of one woman for the rest of their lives [....]
> 
> There's a full blown industry to satisfy a man's urge.


If a relationship with one woman is nothing but doom and gloom for men, why on earth would so many choose to be in relationships? 

There's a full blown industry to satisfy their urges. Surely they don't ever need to settle?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that viagra didn't used to exist.
> 
> So if a man was faced with ED, he not only had no way to work around it, he also had no one to talk about it with. He would be shamed into silence. Although at the same time, it was generally understood by people that this happened to men in middle age, and they naturally had less sex.


Another myth is that ED only affects middle-aged and older men.

Erectile Dysfunction May Affect 1 In 4 Men Under 40 Seeking Treatment, Study Suggests

But how often do you hear young guys talking about their challenges in getting it up?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *What is DTF??*


Down to fvck


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I don't think random one-off encounters are fueled by the same hormone cawktail (really, with the naughty word filter?) that early relationships are. I get what you're saying about not dismissing straight-up horny, but i'm talking more about that "limerence" stage of a relationship, where you're so giddy about your partner you'll drop trou more easily than you would 20 years later. The two just don't feel the same to me.


I agree they aren't the same, but wouldn't necessarily connect that to the hormone ****tail. If you're horny, you're horny; if the person is "one of your dreams" this adds a whole new emotional layer. Then 20 more years will add yet more emotional layers.

Whether or not you choose to "drop trou" in any of those situations would depend a lot on a multitude of factors (health, trust, attachment, etc), wouldn't it?


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## SunnyWife (Aug 6, 2014)

I guess I was raised by a very open minded Christian mother who basically always told me that men want a lady during the day and a sex kitten in the bedroom. Obviously not the norm for a very religious mother to be teaching her daughters. But I must say Hubby is not complaining and we are well matched in that we are both average drive (2-3/week).


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Another myth is that ED only affects middle-aged and older men.
> 
> Erectile Dysfunction May Affect 1 In 4 Men Under 40 Seeking Treatment, Study Suggests
> 
> But how often do you hear young guys talking about their challenges in getting it up?


Well, if you read the stuff I do and talk to the people I do, you hear about it often. I usually hear it from women talking about their partner.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tubbalard said:


> Women want sex within a context of a relationship. When men are faced with the doom and gloom of one woman for the rest of their lives, is where you see congregations of women talking about sex drive. Women for the most part can't handle casual sex like men can. There's a full blown industry to satisfy a man's urge. There are sex tourism industries for women but not on the same scale as men. Men commit crimes and start wars over women. Even if it's just casual sex, women need some type of emotion attached to it.


Note that the entire sex industry that exists for men is depends on women who are able to handle casual sex with no emotional attachment. There are literally hundreds of millions of women who are involved in these industries.

Plus, most women today have plenty of casual sex when they are dating.

So it seems that most women have no issue with casual sex. 

Do us a favor, do not tell women what women feel and need. Oddly enough we already know what we feel and need.

Some women need emotional attachment just as some men do.

Some women can handle casual sex just fine... just as some men do.



Tubbalard said:


> Men commit crimes and start wars over women.


What does this prove about whether women's sex drives? Nothing.

What is does prove is that some men who have a lot of power are pretty stupid... they are fine with leading hoards of men to their deaths for their own desires. Not only that, they are fine with those men whom they lead to their death raping and plundering entire civilizations for their own gross show of how much power they can yield.

How is this a proof of anything except that some men (not all by any means) have such a strong need to control and flex their power that they do some very stupid things.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Few men and women don't suck at sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Was he one of those who acted like he cared about her pleasure while dating, did she too fall into this belief system that women aren't supposed to care about sex?


Yes, he is one of those who had sex that was mutual before marriage. Then after marriage he changed, the old bait & switch. 

So no she did not buy into his point of view. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> ... I still can't help but think MANY WOMEN well knew this wasn't true -no matter what was written, spoken or tabooed through the ages...


I agree with this, there were many women and even men who knew that what was taught was a much of nonsense. Generally however, in the past if a woman wanted to be considered respectable and remain married she had to behave in a way that society expected. Men generally had wives to have children with. But they also had mistresses and frequented prostitutes for real sex with women who were not inhibited by societal constraints. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> One of the books making a case for women's orgasmic Pleasure was The Hite Report: A National Study of Female Sexuality  1st published in '76 by SHERE HITE, a feminist, cultural anthropologist recognized for her work on Psychosexual behavior & gender relations..


I find it amazing that humans have been having sex since the dawn of time, but that humans developed a societal structure that tried to not only deny that women enjoy sex but that actively sought to destroy women’s desire for sex by denying the please women are capable of. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> So pretty much these examples above .. this was your Ex BIL's selfish lover ways ...which led to your Sister being full of resentment & left him.. Did she find a better lover then!?


Those quotes from the book pretty much describe the things my sister said. Her husband got to the point where, if she started to enjoy sex he would yell at her during sex to be quiet and just lay there still while he did his thing. 

After she left him she did find a man who is a good lover. They have been married since about 17 years now and are very happy. She’s 68 now and her new husband is 63. She says that they still have sex almost daily and its great sex. Good for her.




SimplyAmorous said:


> yes -jumping to these conclusions IS far* too easy*... it's always DEEPER than this....then we have to wade through if the person is "self aware" enough to EVEN KNOW what is the root cause .... True , on these anonymous forums / anonymous studies.. the truth should be easier to give.. but face to face.. it seems so many can not even talk about Sex!! ... Embarrassment, fear of hurting the other, fear of rejection...being shamed, what to do about orgasms is another one -that not everyone agress ... how many FAKE it , as to not hurt her man's EGO..and this alone causes undue frustration internally for woman.. She's damned if she does say anything..and damned if she doesn't.... to the point of causing her to loose all interest..


:iagree: If I have learned anything on forums like this is that most people cannot articulate what they feel and need. We are not taught to sit back and look at ourselves, our partners and figure out what are needs really are. We are also not taught the language to really talk about this. We are not told how important this is. It’s all left up to a person observing those around them as they grow up. No wonder there are so many hurting marriages. That is why I like the books like HN/HN. These books taught me a new way of looking at every relationship I have and at myself. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> What are the REAL stats for FAKING?


While the numbers reported for faking it seem high… 70/80% for women, 25% for men… these are not numbers for faking it every time. If a person faked it once in a lifetime they are counted. If we look at people have thousands of sex encounters in a life time and one or two are faked… that’s not much.
Though I do not get faking it. Why not just be honest? Maybe my view of things are too simplistic. But I don’t get not being truthful about these things.


SimplyAmorous said:


> I wouldn't disagree with any of this.. and after all this has been laid out.. opened up... if one is left with a partner on either side who isn't willing to come half way to please ....just plain indifference, stubbornness, rejection to our desires... I can see why anyone would have to get out... we need a loving, caring , giving partner for a satisfying sex life..


:iagree: 

Good thread!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SunnyWife said:


> I guess I was raised by a very open minded Christian mother who basically always told me that men want a lady during the day and a sex kitten in the bedroom. Obviously not the norm for a very religious mother to be teaching her daughters. But I must say Hubby is not complaining and we are well matched in that we are both average drive (2-3/week).


Actually, this is what healthy minded religious women teach their children. Not all religious people are sexually repressed. Not a by a long shot.

I'm glad to hear that your mother was not and you two are enjoying the healthy attitude that she taught you.


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## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Who's been the Higher drive partner in your marriage.. has it switched over the years ? Then on top of all of this.. did we play a part in squashing our partners libido...for them loosing desire for us....Resentment very common...physiological , psychological etc etc....


When we first got together I think we were pretty evenly matched. She might have been slightly higher. I think we were both HD though.

Que up 3 children, birth control (DEPO) and me being an idiot, I ended up being the higher drive. Traveling for work did not and does not help.(Almost sexless for close to 10 years).

We have been in a better place since she got off of depo. I now find myself in the LD drivers seat, and trying to figure out why. Hence my post in the Sex in Marriage forum.

I think drive is pretty even among men and women. I believe it to be an individual thing.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Tubbalard said:


> *Women want sex within a context of a relationship.* ....
> 
> * Even if it's just casual sex, women need some type of emotion attached to it.*


Just saying Tubbalard...this DOES represent a segment of women in our society.. I am most definitely one of these type of women.... I would only be interested in men who UNDERSTAND THIS FACT and appreciate it as well. This article captures the







and soul of how I feel.....

*>>* For the BEST SEX EVER Emotional Intimacy is key..here's why!



> Sex often takes place without emotional intimacy, casual hook ups, one night stands, paid for sex, all examples where emotional intimacy is completely void.Emotional intimacy brings a whole new dimension to sex, it takes it to a level where sexual desire and a need to be totally immersed mentally, spiritually, emotionally and physically fuses into one, resulting in additional heights of ecstasy. IF you've ever experienced making love with someone you're in-love with, and they you, you will know EXACTLY what I mean.
> 
> Emotional intimacy produces a psychological trigger that occurs when the feelings between two people, expose vulnerability, experiences of life, friends, family, hopes, dreams, fears and aspirations which blossom into a mutual sharing and exchange of each other's innermost thoughts and feelings.
> 
> It is this unbridled disclosure that makes emotional intimacy the pinnacle in which to achieve, so both partners experience the BEST SEX ever. It is also VITAL if a relationship is to grow, evolve and provide foundations to build upon. Without emotional intimacy, regardless how good sex may be, the relationship will die, sex never sustains two people beyond sex....


 I used to think the majority of women , deep down in their souls wanted the same things.... seeking to find Love, the deepest of acceptance, to Love & be Loved..








*>>* with sex (making love) being the physical expression of these feelings....even if others may take a different path to find this, ultimately isn't this what we all seek.. I don't know. 

But (as Elegirl spoke)...I'll allow women to speak for themselves.. 

I think this would be a common scenario for a more conservative /seeking LTR type women on a Dating site.. this is what she would run up against *>>* Men Look for Sex and Find Love. Women Look for Love and Find Sex. ... I guess I am one to celebrate what *I see* as the differences in the sexes..







..I think we balance each other out ..








- I am not speaking for anyone else here.... 

However.. the next part of your post...



> There's a full blown industry to satisfy a man's urge. There are *sex tourism industries* for women but not on the same scale as men. *Men commit crimes and start wars over women.*


What is a Sex Tourism industry ? As to the crime & wars over women... It's unfortunate... Unrestrained LUST or the Raging of ANGRY MEN to being blindsided by possessive Love..... the Power of a women -when a man is fixated on HER and only HER ...through the ages can be very strong in some cases...to the point of stalking, Raping, Death..."IF I can't have her.. NO ONE WILL !"....then on the other side... the greatest love stories.. very moving...some of the most beautiful love songs have been written by men in love... also many have committed suicide over the loss of someone they loved .... 

I used to work for a woman, she was physically stunning... just seemed to have it all.. then I learned her 1st BF shot himself at some point after she broke up with him, I saw a picture of him & learned of the story.. so tragic...he couldn't see the Larger picture.. that in time..wounds will heal.. ..but lost all rational thought in his pain.. ..Love has it's other side to rip us to pieces.. this song holds true.... Love Hurts .

One of our sons was deeply hurt over his 1st GF breaking up with him..(I could tell early on..love languages off / different sense of humor - I told him it wouldn't last -probably good before the blow)......he held it all inside... he confided in me months later, he had the THOUGHT of killing himself.. when he shared this with me rather nonchalantly in the kitchen one day -when I was putting something in the microwave -like "Hey Mom, did I ever tell you __________".. I felt this flush of intense sadness wash over me .... LIke "OMG, my dear son...."...for some , even boys...feelings can run very deep....

We had a good







to







that day... he shared how MUSIC got him through that.. also he grew a "I don't give a F*** attitude"- to some extent.. Girls could all go DIE....so he upped some BAD BOY allure through this.. which ironically women seem attracted to... and found himself another GF shortly thereafter -it's delightful to see how much more compatible these 2 are... he's learned there are more fish in the sea...and I'm pretty happy about that !


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SA, how about checking around this site a bit? There are plenty of women who don't need or want an emotional connection to have sex...at least for some period of their lives, or even just once or twice... they can also change their minds and want relationships later, or change back and forth and want casual sex between relationships. There's nothing inherently different about men and women this way. Again it is just all cultural myths based on historical generations POV that caused the idea that women have to have an emotional connection. Some do, some men do too, though. Some don't, some do sometimes and not others, etc etc. There's nothing wrong with these women. If you really think all women are the same and always long for a relationship along with sex, you are not acknowledging the whole truth, because that just isn't the case for every woman throughout her lifetime.

About | The Casual Sex Project


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> Few men and women don't suck at sex.


Do you have direct experience with both?

How did you come to this conclusion?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> SA, how about checking around this site a bit? There are plenty of women who don't need or want an emotional connection to have sex...at least for some period of their lives, or even just once or twice... they can also change their minds and want relationships later, or change back and forth and want casual sex between relationships. There's nothing inherently different about men and women this way. Again it is just all cultural myths based on historical generations POV that caused the idea that women have to have an emotional connection. Some do, some men do too, though. Some don't, some do sometimes and not others, etc etc. There's nothing wrong with these women. If you really think all women are the same and always long for a relationship along with sex, you are not acknowledging the whole truth, because that just isn't the case for every woman throughout her lifetime.
> 
> About | The Casual Sex Project


I purposely put that disclaimer in my post as to *NOT* suggest other women feel this way.. come on now FW.. you seen what I wrote.. so no need to correct me ... 

I have read & read & read where these women are coming from.. here... in books, articles.. Oh yes...I have even bought books that purposely mock views that are meaningful *to me*...they all hammer the cultural constructs /myths too.. meanwhile we are building a new culture of hooking up.. emotional connection not necessary...dare I say, I am not in the camp who sees all Goodness for our future generations.. 

I appreciate writings like this >>

Unhooked: How Young Women Pursue Sex, Delay Love and Lose at Both: Books.... because *I feel* there is ramifications (for the women who DO want to find love someday)..I also can understand why men feel no need to be GOOD/ gentlemanly anymore...there really is no benefit.. it's all in the "DTF" as the term implies....are you HOT, are you good in bed ?? ...well then Let's roll ! 

Meanwhile yeah... I still feel some self restraint is * a virtue*....even for those who have higher sex drives...when lust is difficult to contain at times.. 

The Casual sex Project...I read one of these.. guy cheated on his GF at college, would never regret this one night stand.. hooked up with this woman years later again (probably had a GF then too)....and she's on his FB today (30 yrs later) .. and he regrets not going after her..(awe the hot one that got away!)... True stories.. good to hear.. that's life... it would have sucked to be his GF though.. and I bet his wife doesn't know that history either of his FB friend.

After Frat Party Hookup | The Casual Sex Project.. many of those stories involves cheating...a place to express all your deep dark sexual secrets and how HOT they were. ... it's right here at the casual sex Project. I must admit reading some of those was rather Erotic ...I will be attacking my husband tonight !


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Tubbalard said:


> Women want sex within a context of a relationship. When men are faced with the doom and gloom of one woman for the rest of their lives, is where you see congregations of women talking about sex drive. Women for the most part can't handle casual sex like men can. There's a full blown industry to satisfy a man's urge. There are sex tourism industries for women but not on the same scale as men. Men commit crimes and start wars over women. Even if it's just casual sex, women need some type of emotion attached to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Beautifully written by someone that clearly has no idea.

Women can and do have great sex without the context of a relationship. 
Women can and do enjoy casual sex with little to no emotional connection.
Life with one woman could be doom and gloom just as much as life with one man can be. It takes two great people to have a great life together, if you have not experienced a great relationship then perhaps it is time for some introspection.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I purposely put that disclaimer in my post as to *NOT* suggest other women feel this way.. come on now FW.. you seen what I wrote.. so no need to correct me ...


I don't know what disclaimer you mean and I don't know what you mean by correcting you. :scratchhead:

You said straight up in an earlier post that you believe women need that connection, and you meant it as in, most women. I know you do acknowledge some women want and have casual sex. But since you said you believed most women needed the connection, I wasn't correcting you but offering you evidence that many women don't always need it or want it...and I'll wager that there are enough who don't that it skews your "most women do need it" statement. Is that what you meant by correcting? Because I didn't feel I was correcting but presenting evidence to the contrary.

My whole point...as usual...is to tear down the stereo types.

Women want casual sex. Period. This should be known and understood and passed around as factual data, because it is so. Our judgments about it aside, it is a fact.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> *I don't know what disclaimer you mean and I don't know what you mean by correcting you.* :scratchhead:


 Because I said in the post before yours 'I USED TO THINK.....".. then added right below..."







- I am not speaking for anyone else here."



> *You said straight up in an earlier post that you believe women need that connection, and you meant it as in, most women. *


 I feel you was reading into my words or intentions .. as seriously I've known LONG BEFORE I ever typed a word on this thread that this isn't true.. even if coming into this realization was surprising to me.. the women I hang with are not the type who find the casual sex lifestyle one they'd want to engage in though.. so there you go... in my smaller town circles.. it is what it is.. whether that is cultural, how we were raised, how we look upon marriage...all of it.. which really....just goes to show - that we ALL INFLUENCE EACH OTHER ...

What one grows up with, who people hang with, birds of a feather flock together...these influences has a great great effect on overall behavior & attitudes .....and will bring about these cultural shifts many of you want to see.. I am just one who feels much is being *lost *with the gains... 

For example...I was just reading THIS article.. 

For College Women, Dating Could Be Worse Than Hooking Up

Notice the 1st 2 replies below ...they speak what you are trying to get across loud & clear ....women LOVE HOOK UPS .. are even DISGUSTED that men automatically assume they may want something serious... 

*1.*


> I can't even begin to tell you *how much it bothers me* *that many men automatically assume that a woman is desiring of some kind of commtiment after having sex.*
> 
> THIS a million times (I think we're not allowed to say "THIS" anymore, I'm not sure, so I'm sorry) - *I am sooooo tired of dealing with this garbage from men!!!! Like, seriously, I would RATHER you not take me to dinner and ***** - I really could use the extra evening hours for work - just come over at 10 and leave by 2 am so I can get some decent shut eye and be ready to go by 7 am the next morning. (I HATE sharing a bed with someone, and I'm really really bad at awkwardly kicking people out, so it always ends with me on the couch.) I honestly don't know how to convey the message to them though - *I absolutely do NOT want a ring, commitment, babies - the biggest commitment I want is knowing where my next orgasm is coming from outside of my vibrator,* just because I need those aforementioned evening hours for work and not for picking up dudes at the bar. Any time I've been up front and honest they don't seem to believe me and I don't hear from them again. That's fine, see if you get a back room blow job next time I run into you in a bar 6 months from now.


*2. *


> *I can't even begin to tell you how much it bothers me that many men automatically assume that a woman is desiring of some kind of commtiment after having sex*. The idea that women could just want some casual and fun sex is so alien to them that they freak out and act like total jerks. (Not ALL men).
> 
> I ended up at a small afterparty (about 8 people) at my friends house one Saturday. Booze and hot tubbing in our underwear led to people hooking up (duh). One of the roommates in the house whom I had never met before chatted me up. After about 2 hours of talking we made out and proceeded to have wildly awesome sex in his room. Good times with a sexy Irishman! WINNING. The next day he drove me home and* I flat out said if this was a one time thing then I totally understood and I was totally cool with it. Big fan of the one nighters! *However, I had a fun time and would like to potentially hook up again sometime. He said he would love to, and he got my number.
> 
> ...


Can I be honest here.. and admit.. I find these posts very disheartening..is this the new norm, is this what you're fighting for?....the tables will be turned so badly (mark my words FW) that for the women who still care (like myself, our daughter I presume).... they will have one hell of a time finding a decent man - because of what men will be seeing in droves by women's behavior & attitudes... 

To me.. this is just more feeding of the narcissistic STUD....and we all know these sex driven women are seeking to bed the Hottest Irishman (like that post above!)... 




> *Faithful wife said: **I know you do acknowledge some women want and have casual sex. But since you said you believed most women needed the connection, I wasn't correcting you but offering you evidence that many women don't always need it or want it...and I'll wager that there are enough who don't that it skews your "most women do need it" statement. Is that what you meant by correcting? Because I didn't feel I was correcting but presenting evidence to the contrary.*


 don't worry.. I have read far enough evidence... so much that I am saddened for future generations... 



> *My whole point...as usual...is to tear down the stereo types.
> 
> Women want casual sex. Period. This should be known and understood and passed around as factual data, because it is so. Our judgments about it aside, it is a fact*.


 Well I just helped your cause with my examples above... it's a sexual revolution alright.. Ramifications yet to be known...

Ya know.. last night me & H got into an argument as I was talking about that causal sex Project link .... he didn't want me reading TOO MUCH on this sort of thing feeling it may CHANGE ME...he is just not a man who feels casual sex is Ok in any way.. had that been a part of my past.. we would not be together today.. I don't like seeing men who feel AS HIM being ridiculed for his views either.. 

You can do a campaign to change stereotypes.. and I see nothing wrong with pounding the idea women have AS HIGH of sex drives.. but what we DO with those sex drives.. how we handle ourselves.. there are different camps here.. and this needs to be OK too..


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Just from experience with my wife there is a noticeable difference, not just in terms of SD (mine is undoubtedly higher than hers) but really how we view sex in terms of our relationship. For my wife she has said that non "sexual" related things get her in the mood for sex (hugs/kisses/little touches during the day,etc...). I am the opposite, I am not a huggy/feely kind of guy in general, I like my space. However, having sex with my wife makes me more huggy/feely throughout the day. If we are not having sex or going through long droughts I have very little desire to be huggy/feely. In part, aside from sex helping me to feel connected to my wife, it helps me limit any frustration to be somewhat distant when things are not clicking. 

I also believe this whole concept guys always hear that if you want your wife to be in the mood do the little things like dishes, laundry, help with kids, etc... is bs, just something women say to get what they want and hold sex over guys. Once again, this is from my experience but from also speaking to other guys who have had similar experiences. Yeah, being a complete deadbeat husband at home will probably kill your chances with your wife, but I don't believe being Mr Mom/Husband improves your chances either.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EllisRedding said:


> Just from experience with my wife there is a noticeable difference, not just in terms of SD (mine is undoubtedly higher than hers) but really how we view sex in terms of our relationship. *For my wife she has said that non "sexual" related things get her in the mood for sex (hugs/kisses/little touches during the day,etc...). I am the opposite, I am not a huggy/feely kind of guy in general, I like my space.*


 sounds like your *love languages* are opposite, you are not a Touchy /feely type guy -yet you still have a higher sex drive...

My H is the opposite of you...I wouldn't say his sex drive is as HIGH as other men in his age group (having had his Test levels checked age 45 -I know this) but what saves him is.. he is very high in "*Physical Touch"*...he never needs his space.. and my laying hands on him brings / feeds his arousal...so it works pretty well.. which was a life saver when these tables turned and* I* became the higher drive spouse. ...

Your wife is touchy /feely but lower drive...yet this is HOW you open those gates & get her going ..she needs more on a regular basis it sounds... 



> *However, having sex with my wife makes me more huggy/feely throughout the day. If we are not having sex or going through long droughts I have very little desire to be huggy/feely. In part, aside from sex helping me to feel connected to my wife, it helps me limit any frustration to be somewhat distant when things are not clicking.*


 Have heard others say this very thing.. this would be very frustrating...yes. 



> *I also believe this whole concept guys always hear that if you want your wife to be in the mood do the little things like dishes, laundry, help with kids, etc... is bs, just something women say to get what they want and hold sex over guys.*


 Speaking of the love languages again...I feel if a woman is HIGH in "*Acts of Service*".. there is some truth to this... I have 2 GF's like this.. and both of them get all out of sorts if their husband's don't do this or that...around the house... which causes them to be in a bad mood.. if/when the husband keeps his end of the bargain.. *she is in a better mood.*. which makes sense she would be more *receptive* to his advances.. and probably less tired.. 

"Acts of service" is on my bottom.. when my H wanted more sex in the past, he read an online article focused on doing more around the house to bring this about ...thinking this might help me be more in the mood... when he told me this...I seriously laughed at him.. but then I was a little annoyed.. thinking damn it-you read the wrong article buddy... that's NOT how you deal *with me* !! 

Make if FUN.. FLIRT, tease.. show some passion, TAKE ME.. that would have worked, not doing my da** dishes /pushing the vacuum....how B O R I N G can you get.. ... Show me your erotic NEED.. lust after me! 

He told me he never wanted me to think "it was JUST ABOUT SEX" cause it wasn't (his words).... sweet husband there.. but seriously! Too passive for his own good...There was a poster here years ago, named Big Bad Wolf.. his posts were awesome on this subject.. . had my husband sat at his feet ..put some of that into practice...Yeah.. I just feel this was more in line with what would have *stirred* ME.. 

Just a good idea to talk about SEX







, open up the dialog of our turn ons...explore that !.. it's something we really didn't do - nearly enough.... some "live & learn" regret there.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ok. SA, I just finally read the article. Some of it seemed pretty spot on but I disagreed with some as well. I believe women are more sensitive to what they may be judged by but, regardless, their drives aren't less than that of males.

I agree with you that, while women are just as capable of casual sex, they should respect their drives and it doesn't mean they should engage in casual encounters.

Knowledge is power though and far too many women, as well as their men, have suffered from ignorance on this issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> Just from experience with my wife there is a noticeable difference, not just in terms of SD (mine is undoubtedly higher than hers) but really how we view sex in terms of our relationship. For my wife she has said that non "sexual" related things get her in the mood for sex (hugs/kisses/little touches during the day,etc...). I am the opposite, I am not a huggy/feely kind of guy in general, I like my space. However, having sex with my wife makes me more huggy/feely throughout the day. If we are not having sex or going through long droughts I have very little desire to be huggy/feely. In part, aside from sex helping me to feel connected to my wife, it helps me limit any frustration to be somewhat distant when things are not clicking.


I do think that the above is a basic difference between a lot of men and a lot of women when it comes to sex in a long term relationship.

That’s is different from casual sex with someone with whom a relationship is not really established. With casual sex it’s just sex.

With a long term relationship, the interest on an intimate level needs to be maintained. To maintain the bond in a long term relationship the levels of brain chemicals like oxytocin, dopamine, etc need to be kept high. I’ve read that women, more so than men, will get to the point where they do not want to be touched if the level of these brain chemicals get too low. One of the reasons so many women want the non-sexual intimacy is that it increases oxytocin/etc production.


EllisRedding said:


> I also believe this whole concept guys always hear that if you want your wife to be in the mood do the little things like dishes, laundry, help with kids, etc... is bs, just something women say to get what they want and hold sex over guys. Once again, this is from my experience but from also speaking to other guys who have had similar experiences. Yeah, being a complete deadbeat husband at home will probably kill your chances with your wife, but I don't believe being Mr Mom/Husband improves your chances either.


You are right that doing dishes and other chores with the expectation that they are payment for sex will get exactly what it deserves; no sex. Why? Because sex is not a commodity that it traded for things in a good relationship.

What some seem to miss is that it’s not about doing things in exchange for sex. It’s about taking responsibility. For example on weekend, there is no reason that a wife, even a SAHM, should be responsible for all child care, all housework, etc. She should be able to get a break on the weekend as well. So a guy taking responsibility for 50% during these times is not him doing things for her. IT’s him taking care of his responsibilities.

There are recent studies that show that in marriages have more sex when both spouses share responsibilities, to include house work and child rearing and even brining in income... it’s working as a team that matters.

What this reminds me of is that we often hear: If a man gets all the sex he wants or if a woman ‘gives’ all the sex to her husband that he wants, he will do anything his wife wants and spoil her. That this is all a man wants. Well that’s just nonsense, at lease in most cases. Few men are that simple. 

Sex should not be “given”, good sex is shared. Yes it’s an important distinction. From experience a daily sex life in which the wife is really into it does not stop a husband from cheating, it does not improve his treatment of his wife, and does not lead to him doing everything she wants. If a man if going to cheat or mistreat his wife, he’s going to do it no matter how often he has enthusiastic sex with his wife.

So is this just something that men just say to get what they want and hold over women? (yes I’m challenging you to think more about this statement: “is bs, just something women say to get what they want and hold sex over guys”) Or could it be that rotten men will cheat not matter what and rotten women will misuse sex to manipulate their husbands? So it behooves to decide if you have a rotten spouse. If you don’t, there is validity in what they say. To categorically dismiss what one’s spouse says because some rotten people say similar things to manipulate is not cool at all.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> You are right that doing dishes and other chores with the expectation that they are payment for sex will get exactly what it deserves; no sex. Why? Because sex is not a commodity that it traded for things in a good relationship.
> 
> What some seem to miss is that it’s not about doing things in exchange for sex. It’s about taking responsibility. For example on weekend, there is no reason that a wife, even a SAHM, should be responsible for all child care, all housework, etc. She should be able to get a break on the weekend as well. So a guy taking responsibility for 50% during these times is not him doing things for her. IT’s him taking care of his responsibilities.
> 
> ...


Well, as someone who has no experience with cheating or given much thought to I cannot give an opinion on. I personally believe that sex should not be held over by either spouse, if that is the intention (whether the husband or the wife) then don't get married in the first place. In terms of my "bs" statement, notice I said I was speaking simply from my experience and from talking to others who have had similar experiences. So where do I categorically dismiss anyone when I clearly acknowledge I am speaking purely from my only firsthand knowledge? Or maybe just misinterpreting your response?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> Well, as someone who has no experience with cheating or given much thought to I cannot give an opinion on. I personally believe that sex should not be held over by either spouse, if that is the intention (whether the husband or the wife) then don't get married in the first place. In terms of my "bs" statement, notice I said I was speaking simply from my experience and from talking to others who have had similar experiences. So where do I categorically dismiss anyone when I clearly acknowledge I am speaking purely from my only firsthand knowledge? Or maybe just misinterpreting your response?


Yes you did say that you were speaking from your experience. But you also made a very wide sweeping statement that sounds like you are saying that all, or most women, are just holding sex over guys to get their way.



EllisRedding said:


> I also believe this whole concept guys always hear that if you want your wife to be in the mood do the little things like dishes, laundry, help with kids, etc... is bs, just something women say to get what they want and hold sex over guys.


So I was, as I said, trying to get you to think outside of your own box. Just as in our post you were telling your perspective to get people to see things from your point of view, I gave my perspective to try to get you to see things from a different point of view that is based on my experiences.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Yes you did say that you were speaking from your experience. But you also made a very wide sweeping statement that sounds like you are saying that all, or most women, are just holding sex over guys to get their way.


Yes, was not meant to be a sweeping statement so apologies if it came across as such, purely one from my own experience (which I should add I personally have never had sex held over me by my wife as you know from my thread that area is related to some other issues we are tackling now) which includes conversations with married guys who a majority seem to feel this way. I think as well some of my response just comes from reading so many posts here where it appears the SO holds sex against (male or female), whether via rejection or other means, so the fact that it even happens and/or is acceptable irritates me tbh.




EleGirl said:


> So I was, as I said, trying to get you to think outside of your own box. Just as in our post you were telling your perspective to get people to see things from your point of view, I gave my perspective to try to get you to see things from a different point of view that is based on my experiences.


No, I understand where you are coming from, and like said I personally don't think it is acceptable whether male or female to hold over against your SO.

Sorry for the off topic commentary, back to Sex Drives :smthumbup:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

To the poster who said d*ck has no value and a high end male prostitute would be the equivalent of a motel 6 hooker....

A friend of mine just hired a male escort at $400 per hour and she prepaid for 5 sessions. 

This is not unusual or off the beaten path either. She found him on twitter. There are actually hundreds of male sex workers and more every day. There have always been plenty of gay male sex workers but now there are also ones for straight women who want high quality d*ck.

People can either accept the truth or pretend it isn't there, but it doesn't change the facts.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SA...I must not have read the entire post you are referring to and missed that part. My apologies.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oh good! For some women, that might be the only way they will ever experience good sex. (For some men, too).


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Oh good! For some women, that might be the only way they will ever experience good sex. (For some men, too).


"Good" sex being the operative word. We all know that women can get sex but as women get real with themselves and stop listening to men telling us what we are supposed to want/like then we are certainly getting better at being true to ourselves and seeking quality sex. 

I hope the days of the selfish male lover are numbered but sadly reading TAM it is clear that is a long way off.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The topic of this thread is not prostitution. I cleaned up the thread jack. Please stick to the topic.

If you want to have a thread about prostitution, then someone start one.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holland said:


> "Good" sex being the operative word. We all know that women can get sex but as women get real with themselves and stop listening to men telling us what we are supposed to want/like then we are certainly getting better at being true to ourselves and seeking quality sex.
> 
> I hope the days of the selfish male lover are numbered but sadly reading TAM it is clear that is a long way off.


I liked your post, but I don't see evidence of selfish lovers here. (Maybe I haven't read what you are referring to).

And yes, "good" being the operative word. :smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> *SA...I must not have read the entire post you are referring to and missed that part. My apologies*.


Thank you for that  .. I don't mean to come off TOO this or that in response.. I like that we can have or give some grace to each other -even in our differences of opinion in some of these areas...

I missed some of the posts earlier...bummer....helping H with a outdoor project.. earlier we watched this movie about an older woman who lost her Husband (she had to be like 65 yrs old) and how this younger man -maybe 35 , who was in a relationship with her daughter.. these 2 had opportunity to be alone.. she encouraged him, seemed to understand him.. in her loneliness she asked him to take her to bed.. I have never seem a movie like this (it was British)... besides the fact the guy was married.. he had a GF (she knew) and now he was "doing" her mother.. oh my Goodness.. we had to shut it off when the kids came home.. 

Will watch the ending tomorrow.. should be some DRAMA there!... I felt so bad for this old lady.. loosing her husband, she thought she'd never be touched again, it all upped her spirits...

I THINK about sexuality so often...and how utterly LONELY it would be to be single & not have someone to hold at night.... to be thrust into a caretaker situation, sexless marriage... like this old woman... what thrill is there left to life -without that awesome connecting physically to another...who you'd THINK doesn't have those feelings stirring anymore at her age....it has to be something that never dies in some of us.. keeps us young even.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

The whole Good Lover thing







...so much is ... feeling the other wants to BE THERE just as much as we... that feeling lost in each other.... I remember yrs ago..this moment of "AWE" ....realizing when kissing, we were breathing through each other ...we didn't come up for air...you want it to last all night ...if only such pleasure could.. but it can't be contained.. 

I just gotta add a list or 2... or it wouldn't be right ! My H could have more oomph with #6...he's really not the adventurous & Kinky type.. that's where I've had to step things UP....he makes up for it in the Sensuous Romantic though!



> *1. **HE FOCUSES ON YOU*
> 
> He cherished every inch of my body and paid attention to each subtle detail of my enjoyment.
> 
> ...





> Are You a Good Lover? 10 Qualities of a Good Lover
> 
> A key aspect of sexual power is emotional intimacy, an instinctive desire to bond to a lover, to feel comfort, to be known. This makes the difference between pure physical sex and lovemaking. Emotional intimacy comes from affection, from sharing feelings, from being vulnerable. By caring you reinforce each other’s attractiveness and make each other feel special. As friends and lovers, you are fundamentally there for each other which creates trust. You see each other as real people, the good and the bad, not some idealized version. When conflict, anger, or hurt feelings arise, you’re committed to working through them.
> 
> ...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I liked your post, but I don't see evidence of selfish lovers here. (Maybe I haven't read what you are referring to).
> 
> And yes, "good" being the operative word. :smthumbup:


There is a thread going on now from a woman who's husband told her she has no right to an equal sex experience and that he would not do more to make sex better for her. There has been other similar experiences posted here.


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## fitchick1961 (May 5, 2015)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I've never been matched with my SO. He wants it everyday while I have no drive at all... I never really want it.
> 
> That's not to say I hate sex... Sex is fantastic. I just don't really need it much and would prefer it only once a month or less.


Yes, this is completely how I am.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> My experience? I know many will disagree but it's definitely my experience that women rarely if ever want sex.


The problem is not that most women don't want sex. They do, just not with overly beta men, including their husbands.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

technovelist said:


> *The problem is not that most women don't want sex. They do, just not with betas, including their husbands.*


Please don't cut up on the Betas too much..I love my sensitive "tipped Beta" husband....and he gets more sex than he can even handle..poor guy!
The problem with the term  is.. we each conjure up different ideas when we hear it.. have you ever seen my thread on this Technovelist ?

*>>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html


I do not look upon the term in the same light as many others.. (we can blame Athol Kay for that )...in fact I find it offensive how some Pick up artists sites have slaughtered the idea of a GOOD MAN who cares about his wife.. makes me want to  on their articles.. 

There is such a thing as GOOD BETA...it's not all pathetic as some have us believe. 



> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


If he was too much of a Jerk (conceited ALPHA), didn't show enough care / consideration for MY needs, wants....if he didn't listen to me, show a loving faithfulness..showing some vulnerability... I would seriously seek for another who had those wonderful qualities flowing... we would not have lasted..


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

technovelist does have a point in that, many women that don't appear to want sex are not being stimulated by their husbands.

Not bringing alpha or beta into it but it is a well observed phenomenon that many women lose attraction for their husbands.

They still want to feel aroused but their husbands aren't doing it for them anymore.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> technovelist does have a point in that, many women that don't appear to want sex are not being stimulated by their husbands.
> 
> Not bringing alpha or beta into it but it is a well observed phenomenon that many women lose attraction for their husbands.
> 
> They still want to feel aroused but their husbands aren't doing it for them anymore.


I would think the same would hold true for husbands in that they lose attraction to their wives. 

Also, how much of the loss in attraction is more related to marital problems and not necessarily related to the physical aspect?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I would think the same would hold true for husbands in that they lose attraction to their wives.
> 
> Also, how much of the loss in attraction is more related to marital problems and not necessarily related to the physical aspect?


Actually, the research indicates that it is mostly women in very good marriages that they even claim are good. The women don't even know why they are no longer sexually attracted to the men they love and adore. It is still being researched.

It does happen with men but not at nearly as high a rate.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Actually, the research indicates that it is mostly women in very good marriages that they even claim are good. The women don't even know why they are no longer sexually attracted to the men they love and adore. It is still being researched.
> 
> It does happen with men but not at nearly as high a rate.


Interesting. So is the assumption that women in not as good marriages are more likely to still be sexually attracted to their husbands vs the very good marriage crowd?

I would think hormonal issues on the male side as they get older could account for reduced sexual attraction given all else equal (very good marriages as in your example).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Interesting. So is the assumption that women in not as good marriages are more likely to still be sexually attracted to their husbands vs the very good marriage crowd?
> Nope. No correlation.
> I would think hormonal issues on the male side as they get older could account for reduced sexual attraction given all else equal (very good marriages as in your example).


As far as I can tell, this is accurate.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Please don't cut up on the Betas too much..I love my sensitive "tipped Beta" husband....and he gets more sex than he can even handle..poor guy!
> The problem with the term  is.. we each conquer up different ideas when we hear it.. have you ever seen my thread on this Technovelist ?
> 
> *>>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html
> ...


I'm on board with Athol that you need a mix of alpha and beta for any long-term relationship to work. When my wife is ill or needs help in any way, I'm very supportive of her. But I don't cater to her every want, as I know that is not the way to keep the spark alive.

For most men today, I suspect if there is a problem, it is insufficient alpha and excessive beta. Of course this will vary according to the specific situation, but that seems to be the most common issue.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

technovelist said:


> I'm on board with Athol that *you need a mix of alpha and beta for any long-term relationship to work*. When my wife is ill or needs help in any way, I'm very supportive of her. But I don't cater to her every want, as I know that is not the way to keep the spark alive.
> 
> For most men today, I suspect if there is a problem, it is insufficient alpha and excessive beta. Of course this will vary according to the specific situation, but that seems to be the most common issue.


Absolutely. And about catering to her every want... I think that's pretty on the target. One another's needs are what matter, and a man who meets his woman's needs won't be wanting for sex. Taking responsibility for his role (taking a lead) in the relationship, and making sure her needs are met, seems like a pretty alpha thing to me.

(Personally, I don't think necessarily that alpha=assh0le. I think is someone who takes initiative, leads rather than follows, takes responsibility, etc etc. has "alpha" characteristics, but there also needs to be some "beta" characteristics for a balanced personality.)

Not the best metaphor, but... before Christmas, everyone asks me what I want. Forget that, I'm a grown-ass woman, if I _want _something, I can buy it myself. But I'll put things that I _need_ on my list, and those are usually specific, carefully selected things that I actually need but haven't yet procured on my own, and which will be most useful to me, will make me most happy, and will improve my quality of life in some way or another. And then what tends to happen is the gift-givers in question ignore my list and will get me something that they think I will want, which in reality I neither want nor need. So, not only now do I have some piece of junk that I will never use and will clutter up my house, but I also feel that my loved one wasn't listening and/or didn't care about my answer when they asked and I said, "This is what I need." This tells me they don't really care about me enough to actually listen to me and to help me with what I need.

(Not busting on the bad gift-givers out there. I know it's torture to try to think of gift ideas, which is why I maintain a wish list on Amazon... all of this is also why I always buy from the list or registry. If it's on the list, it means the recipient wants or needs it. They say it's the thought that counts. Well, my thought is, I'm gonna get you something you actually want, and not try to feed my ego by thinking that I will show how well I know you by choosing a gift you never even knew you wanted or needed. But I digress.)

I would feel the same way with a partner. If he was all the time trying to give me what he thinks I want (or that which he's decided I _should_ want), while simultaneously ignoring my explicitly stated needs, I would be very frustrated. I would be seriously questioning whether or not I wanted to stay in this relationship, and potentially planning to leave, depending on how long this has been going on. And I definitely would not want to have sex with him, because I would feel like he wasn't listening to me, that he didn't actually care, that he's not actually invested in me or our relationship. And all of that is a HUGE turnoff.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> (Personally, I don't think necessarily that alpha=assh0le. I think is someone who takes initiative, leads rather than follows, takes responsibility, etc etc. has "alpha" characteristics, but there also needs to be some "beta" characteristics for a balanced personality.)


:iagree:

It seems like too often now alpha automatically gets lumped in as an a$$hole (maybe not as much here but I see this assumption made a lot in other various social media outlets)


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