# Do women want a masculine man?



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Do women want a masculine man regardless of what they may say? If so, what are the characteristics? The reason I ask is this: Whatever it was that I was 18 years ago, my wife seemed to love it. I'm as John Wayne as they come, but I was never the type of guy to tinker around in the garage or do a lot under the hood of a car. I'm more of an indoors guy and, therefore, did a lot of washing dishes, vacuming, washing clothes, etc. I spent 18 years thinking my wife, or any wife, would like this, but I now realize that wasn't her love language. So, could that have had just the opposite affect. Could she have thought I was just a big sissy for doing all that and ,therefore, not attractive? Would she rather I had been out slaying a deer for supper with my bare hands? What level of masculinity do most women need to find their partner attractive?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You've already asked this, in another thread. Why the repeat?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

southbound said:


> Do women want a masculine man regardless of what they may say? If so, what are the characteristics? The reason I ask is this: Whatever it was that I was 18 years ago, my wife seemed to love it. I'm as John Wayne as they come, but I was never the type of guy to tinker around in the garage or do a lot under the hood of a car. I'm more of an indoors guy and, therefore, did a lot of washing dishes, vacuming, washing clothes, etc. I spent 18 years thinking my wife, or any wife, would like this, but I now realize that wasn't her love language. So, could that have had just the opposite affect. Could she have thought I was just a big sissy for doing all that and ,therefore, not attractive? Would she rather I had been out slaying a deer for supper with my bare hands? What level of masculinity do most women need to find their partner attractive?


It could be any of a zillion things. Ask her. But my guess is that the sissy thing is a red herring. There was something there when you met that is gone. What is it? But I would bet you are no more a sissy now than you were then. Did you make her laugh? Did you strong bulging muscles make her knees weak? Did your ability to listen make her warm and safe? My guess is that only she knows.

For me I have no idea what "level of masculinity" means.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> You've already asked this, in another thread. Why the repeat?


Why did i ask again? Because I forgot i asked the first time. Sorry for the repeat. Going through a divorce tends to make my mind a little crazy and forgetful.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

The answer is, yes ... no matter what they say.

Be true to your word. If you say you are going to do something - for her, or not, make sure you do it.

Be strong and independent within the relationship.

Have boundaries. Enforce them.

Be supportive. Be relaxed. Be loving. Be confident.

Do not be emotionally needy.

If what you are doing isn't working, stop doing it. When she challenges you, which she will, simply inform her that you are making changes for yourself. If she pushes further, use body language that you have no interest in discussing the subject, or, ignore her and abandon the interaction. Go somewhere else and do something else.

Stick to it and this will change your current dynamic.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> The answer is, yes ... no matter what they say.


Deejo, that was funny though I know you did not mean it as such. 

You don't like me much. I am ok with that. You don't answer some of my questions for clarification. Or maybe you just don't always see the posts. 

But I have to ask. Maybe you will be willing to explain since sometimes you do. And your way of seeing things sometimes makes sense to me.

What does that MEAN? What does women want a more masculine man MEAN to you when you say yes so unreservedly? I thank you in advance for your answer.



> Be true to your word. If you say you are going to do something - for her, or not, make sure you do it.
> 
> Be strong and independent within the relationship.
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound like being masculine. That sounds like being smart. That sounds like what I did... Except for ignore and abandon the interaction. The only interaction that I would abandon is ones that involved yelling or pouting. But you go back to set limits and enforce them if the interaction tended to the nutsoid.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

vthsm, I think some of the men here really think that only MEN can act like adults--so to them, these behaviors are for men, not for women. Women are "more emotional" (which is hogwash; what they should say is, more women are comfortable showing emotions other than anger) and women are "naturally more submissive," so these guys cannot get their head around women who act like adults. 

I totally agree that men who do NOT act like adults are sexually unattractive to a lot of women. But apparently a lot of men don't care if women act like adults; they still find immature women to be sexually attractive and do not hold the same expectations for rational behavior for/from women.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> vthsm, I think some of the men here really think that only MEN can act like adults--so to them, these behaviors are for men, not for women.


Well I confess I find BBW positively comical. And he I would put in that category. I guess I thought better of Deejo.


> I totally agree that men who do NOT act like adults are sexually unattractive to a lot of women.


I can't help but thinking the street is not one way. Women stereotypically pigeon hole men in the same manner.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

southbound said:


> Could she have thought I was just a big sissy for doing all that and ,therefore, not attractive? Would she rather I had been out slaying a deer for supper with my bare hands? What level of masculinity do most women need to find their partner attractive?


 Not all of us women are the same. I am happy my husband doesn't hunt (even though we have many acres of property where he could year round), hang out with the guys, is a jockish masculine type sports nut, nor can he bench press much. These things do nothing for me personally. Not that he is pushing the vacuum around at home, but I am happy he is a Family man / Home Buddy type- this works for "this woman", and that is all that matters. 

He IS a excellent handyman though, can even make his own tools in a pinch, good with the chain saw, builds sheds & tree houses, can push a mean snow plow , can lay cement, fix a roof, build chimneys & rehaul vehicles when necessary. These things are definetely more "attractive" in comparison to him doing any of my house chores........ But then again, if you have the Job & $$ to pay for outside help, then nothing wrong with that !! At our house, he would rather do it himself & have the extra $$ for our family. 

Get this book & read it from cover to cover in anticipation of your next relationship. Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! (9780762415335): Robert A. Glover: Books

The question is WHY was you doing so much housework- approval --sex? 

Would you say you have believed this for most of your life /marraige >>> *That if you are GOOD and do everything RIGHT , that you will be LOVED, get your needs met (sex), and basically have a problem free life?* This book will brilliantly explain how this attempt to be Good typically involves trying to eliminate or hide certain things about yourself (your mistakes, NEEDS, Emotions) and become what you BELIEVE others want you to be (Generous, helpful, peaceful, etc).

*Characteristics of the Nice Guy >>> does any of this fit ?>>>*

* Nice Guys are Givers
* Nice Guys fix and caretake
* Nice Guys seek approval from others
* Nice Guys avoid conflict
* Nice Guys believe they must hide their perceived flaws & 
Mistakes
* Nice Guys seek the "right" way to do things
* Nice Guys repress their feelings 
* Nice Guys try to be differnt from their fathers 
* Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women 
than to men.
* Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority
* Nice Guys often make their partner their emotional center. 

*It has this long list in the book about what is WRONG with these "NIce Guys" - it explains just how >>>>

*
* Nice Guys are dishonest
* Nice Guys are secretive
* Nice Guys are compartmentalized
* NIce Guys are manipulative
* NIce Guys are controlling
* Nice Guys give to get
* Nice Guys are passive aggressive
* Nice Guys are full of rage
* Nice Guys are addictive
* Nice Guys have trouble setting boundaries
* Nice Guys are frequently isolated
* Nice Guys are often attracted to people & situations that '
need fixing
* Nice Guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships
* Nice Guys have issues with Sexuality
* Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> You don't like me much. I am ok with that. You don't answer some of my questions for clarification. Or maybe you just don't always see the posts.


Liking you has nothing to do with it. I will confess that I don't understand you, and at the risk of sounding dismissive, trying to understand you isn't important to me. I don't purposely ignore you, or anyone for that matter. If I haven't responded to a thread, it's either because it got buried, or something shiny diverted my attention. If you send a PM for clarification, I won't ignore it.



> But I have to ask. Maybe you will be willing to explain since sometimes you do. And your way of seeing things sometimes makes sense to me.
> 
> What does that MEAN? What does women want a more masculine man MEAN to you when you say yes so unreservedly? I thank you in advance for your answer.


I still don't care what the hell we call it. I truly don't. It's the doing that matters. I know men that are all balls and brass that are masculine and I know men that are subdued, reserved and respectful that are masculine. I say 'yes' that all women want a masculine man because there is always room for improvement - always.

If a man feels compelled to ask this question, then it's a relatively safe bet that he is struggling in a relationship with a woman, or struggling to let go of a woman that has let go of him - and he doesn't know why.

You keep wanting to pull the woman's side of the equation into how I, or anyone else responds to these issues. I don't need to know her side - because the issue ISN'T ABOUT HER.

I often comment on the behavior of men as a direct result of my own circumstances, and having applied and tried many of the models we discuss - including the suggestions I made to southbound; and all of which by the way, as I have stated previously, thought were crap when I first read about them. Regardless of whatever you think ... it works. And if it doesn't work, that's a queue that you should probably move on.

I'll repeat it again: I'm not interested in manipulating women or presenting them with some bizarre charade. I'm interested in becoming _better_ for myself; a byproduct of which is, you become more attractive to a wider array of women.

'Just be yourself' isn't much help if you don't actually take the time to discover and decide who you are. And many, many guys lose who they are over the course of a long term relationship.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The question is WHY was you doing so much housework- approval --sex?
> 
> Would you say you have believed this for most of your life /marraige >>> *That if you are GOOD and do everything RIGHT , that you will be LOVED, get your needs met (sex), and basically have a problem free life?
> *


*


Why was I doing it? I guess it just seemed natural under the circumstances. As I said, I was never a guy to hang out in the garage under the hood; I was more of an indoors guy. I was no complete stranger to household chores while growing up. I had one brother and no sisters. It was no big deal for my brother and I to do some cooking and taking care of our own rooms, especially if our mother was sick. When I got married, I didn't do those things hoping to get sex or approval, it just seemed like the thing to do. Due to our work schedule, I was at home more hours than my wife during the day, and I got a lot more vacation time, so I would have felt like a nut just ignoring basic house chores and waiting for her to do it all, or just sitting around in the recliner on weekends while she did all the cleaning and clothes washing, or waiting for her to always cook supper. Her job is more physically demanding than mine as well, so I didn't mind letting her crash in the evenings while I cooked supper and gave the babies their baths, etc. Having been into carpentry work for five years early in my life, I was a good handyman around the house and even done a lot of the labor when we built our house. 
It wasn't until years into our marriage that I would read and hear about how women would enjoy it if their husbands helped out around the house more. I even read one quote that read, "If you want to make her horny, do the laundry." I thought, "Gee, I already have this helping out thing down pat," so I didn't understand why she didn't appreciate it more. After she asked for a divorce and we had some bone cutting discussions, she informed me that she looked at all that as my duty and nothing special. So, I guess that wasn't her love language. I just wonder if it backfired and made her unattracted to me because I wasn't macho enough. Some of you may say, "why not just ask her?" I'm not sure, though, that I could get a straight answer. There are no big things as to why she wants a divoce, just a million little things. She's basically naming off everything I have ever done as a negative, so I think she's just making excuses and using everything she can as a reason. I'm wondering what the "real" reason is.*


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

sisters359 said:


> vthsm, I think some of the men here really think that only MEN can act like adults--so to them, these behaviors are for men, not for women. Women are "more emotional" (which is hogwash; what they should say is, more women are comfortable showing emotions other than anger) and women are "naturally more submissive," so these guys cannot get their head around women who act like adults.
> 
> I totally agree that men who do NOT act like adults are sexually unattractive to a lot of women. But apparently a lot of men don't care if women act like adults; they still find immature women to be sexually attractive and do not hold the same expectations for rational behavior for/from women.


Our disagreements are always respectful, and generally, we tend to agree far more than disagree. Your ADULT behavior analogy is a really good one. Adult behavior can be categorized as either masculine or feminine. Although sometimes adult fun involves distinctly NOT acting much like an adult.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Liking you has nothing to do with it. I will confess that I don't understand you, and at the risk of sounding dismissive, trying to understand you isn't important to me.


Oh geesh. Dismiss on. Internet forums aren't the be all end all.


> I don't purposely ignore you, or anyone for that matter. If I haven't responded to a thread, it's either because it got buried, or something shiny diverted my attention. If you send a PM for clarification, I won't ignore it.


kk got you.



> You keep wanting to pull the woman's side of the equation into how I, or anyone else responds to these issues. I don't need to know her side - because the issue ISN'T ABOUT HER.


I do? Well you don't understand me well, as you yourself admit. But that is not the point.

But if a relationship is between two people, how do you conclude you know how to help someone while completely dismissing half the story?



> I often comment on the behavior of men as a direct result of my own circumstances, and having applied and tried many of the models we discuss - including the suggestions I made to southbound; and all of which by the way, as I have stated previously, thought were crap when I first read about them. Regardless of whatever you think ... it works. And if it doesn't work, that's a queue that you should probably move on.


So there is one dynamic. If that dynamic does not work, give up and move on? Is that what you are saying?



> I'll repeat it again: I'm not interested in manipulating women or presenting them with some bizarre charade. I'm interested in becoming _better_ for myself; a byproduct of which is, you become more attractive to a wider array of women.


That sounds fine. No one could argue with making oneself better for oneself. That sounds like a great way to increase opportunities while dating. It doesn't strike me as useful in solving specific relationship problems unless I don't understand you.



> 'Just be yourself' isn't much help if you don't actually take the time to discover and decide who you are. And many, many guys lose who they are over the course of a long term relationship.


Ok well thanks for that. I don't understand what you mean any better But I appreciate your trying.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

southbound said:


> There are no big things as to why she wants a divoce, just a million little things. She's basically naming off everything I have ever done as a negative, so I think she's just making excuses and using everything she can as a reason. I'm wondering what the "real" reason is.


No, you are correct. Asking her isn't going to yield you an answer.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> No, you are correct. Asking her isn't going to yield you an answer.


Not a chance.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Well being a woman, I may be qualified to answer what women find attractive. Dishes and whatnot have nothing to do with it. If you can't manage yourself and your own laundry well I feel sorry for you as a useless lout. What I want is an ADULT. 

So she lists a bunch of things... "all the things you've done wrong." And you want to know the REAL reason ... that you aren't hunting deer? I don't imagine it might be... all the things you've done wrong that she has discussed with you?

If I bring something up with my husband, he generally looks me in the eye and deals with it. Even if dealing with it is to tell me he has no earthly idea what I am talking about. When a problem arises, we deal with it until it is dealt with. Just a thought.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I always joke with my husband that HE IS A MANLY MAN.

He laughs and he says: If you tell anybody in my family that I am a MANLY MAN, they'll laugh the hell out of them. To them, I am just a bookworm. They are MEN. They are manual workers and they have big bodies. By the way, most of them are heavy with big watermelons on their bellies. 

I said, my idea of A MANLY MAN is different. I don't mean men who have big muscles. I mean men who are wise, who have personalities, and who understand women. 

My husband shares a lot of house chores with me, I love him for that. It shows that he knows the fact that I work a lot, I do a lot at home, it's only fair for him to help me out at home. 

But he has a strong personality, he is interested in me, he does a lot of things for me, he keeps on arousing me sexually by toughing me and kissing me, but he doesn't give in to me when I ***** or whine. He reasons with me, he lets me see my problems and he helps me improve. What he is doing really makes me feel being loved. And, he makes sure he takes care of his health issues, he makes sure he looks neat, he makes sure he smells nice. He is well mannered and well groomed!

Sometimes you think you are doing a lot, but if you are not doing the way she likes, it doesn't mean much to her. You have to find out what she thinks it makes her feel being loved!


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Well being a woman, I may be qualified to answer what women find attractive. Dishes and whatnot have nothing to do with it. If you can't manage yourself and your own laundry well I feel sorry for you as a useless lout. What I want is an ADULT.
> 
> So she lists a bunch of things... "all the things you've done wrong." And you want to know the REAL reason ... that you aren't hunting deer? I don't imagine it might be... all the things you've done wrong that she has discussed with you?
> 
> If I bring something up with my husband, he generally looks me in the eye and deals with it. Even if dealing with it is to tell me he has no earthly idea what I am talking about. When a problem arises, we deal with it until it is dealt with. Just a thought.


I appreciate everyone's comments. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel I need a definition of what adult is to a woman. I feel like I act too mature for my wife and perhaps that has turned her off. I am a very level headed person who manages money well and always wants to approach things in a logical, safe manner. I can certainly take care of myself in all areas. I'm the guy who drives safely with the kids, etc. I am 42 and have also slacked off in playing games, such as volleyball, at summer gatherings, and board games at winter gatherings. I've just lost interest as I've gotten older and she seems to not like this. If anything, she seems to get more activity oriented as she gets older. She also thinks its weird and boring to enjoy watching the History channel, for example. Perhaps she thinks she's living with an old man while she gets more activity oriented.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

southbound said:


> I appreciate everyone's comments. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel I need a definition of what adult is to a woman. I feel like I act too mature for my wife and perhaps that has turned her off. I am a very level headed person who manages money well and always wants to approach things in a logical, safe manner. I can certainly take care of myself in all areas. I'm the guy who drives safely with the kids, etc. I am 42 and have also slacked off in playing games, such as volleyball, at summer gatherings, and board games at winter gatherings. I've just lost interest as I've gotten older and she seems to not like this. If anything, she seems to get more activity oriented as she gets older. She also thinks its weird and boring to enjoy watching the History channel, for example. Perhaps she thinks she's living with an old man while she gets more activity oriented.


southbound,

where do things currently stand? Are you divorced or in the process? Are you still under the same roof?

Are you curious about this stuff in the context of trying to reconcile, or attracting a new partner?

If I had to speculate on part of the rift between you and your wife - being more adult isn't it. What you describe of yourself sounds predictable, complacent, placid. Sounds like she wants, unpredictable, exciting, and even a bit wreckless. If that simply isn't who you are then there is no point in forcing it. But, if it is who you were ... and that was who she was attracted to, then you may want to revisit those qualities.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

southbound said:


> I appreciate everyone's comments. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel I need a definition of what adult is to a woman.


I am not sure how it is useful to know what it is to "a woman". 
You aren't married to "a woman". You are married to your wife.



> If anything, she seems to get more activity oriented as she gets older. She also thinks its weird and boring to enjoy watching the History channel, for example. Perhaps she thinks she's living with an old man while she gets more activity oriented.


Seems? Why don't you ask her?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Seems? Why don't you ask her?


Because that ship sailed. She's divorcing him. 

Asking the woman that is dumping you why she no longer is attracted to you is the equivalent of asking a rabid wolf to take another bite out of your throat. It is an unhealthy and futile exercise.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Because that ship sailed. She's divorcing him.


Ayuh. Too late for that. Missed that fact.



> Asking the woman that is dumping you why she no longer is attracted to you is the equivalent of asking a rabid wolf to take another bite out of your throat. It is an unhealthy and futile exercise.


Yup.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Many misunderstandings here are preventable if people would actually read the thread.

Retards do it.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Southbound, do you think the one big answer to why your wife wants a divorce will be found from strangers on an internet forum that don't know the details about your life? These answers that only your wife can possibly know? I understand you're going through a grieving process due to the loss of your marriage and you're desperately searching for some magic reason. I do wish I had it or that anyone here had it but it is very unlikely. If you feel you can't ask her or doubt her ability to know the answer, it is likely this fact alone contributes more to your break up than any ideation that you being not manly enough does.

My husband is not manly in that he does not watch sports games or hang out with the guys to drink beers and he has always helped with housework and the kids even though I'm a stay at home mom. He does; however, have confidence in his masculinity enough to know that he doesn't have to behave like a walking stereotype in order to be a great man.

Conrad, advice on this board would be much more helpful if a select few of male posters recognized that women are more than capable of knowing what they want and answering questions about what is going on inside of them. A man pretending to be a retard because someone called him this at one time and he can't let it go, should try to recognize this.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I said this before and I'll say it again. If you did things YOU wanted to do (chores, hobbies, whatever) and ignored things SHE wanted from you (attention, touch, talk, whatever), then she may have become very unhappy with you and given up on asking you to meet her needs. She would then have begun disconnecting, until she felt no attachment to you and you are simply not "right" for her anymore. 

You can give someone as much free food as you want (because you like to cook), but if the problem is that they are thirsty, they will still die. 

And besides, who knows? I think a lot of people just grow in different directions, esp. if there is no deep connection.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Southbound: 

My husband was like you, he read on the internet that helping me do dishes, housework would get him more sex back in the day when I was too much into our kids & other things. When he told me this many yrs later, I just laughed - I had NO inkling what was on his mind, and furthermore, for me personally, that was simply NOT how to deal with me at all, I found that advice completely stupid. (but I am not an Acts of Service type woman at all). 

I would have MUCH preferred him just to TALK to me expressing what he wanted, flirt with me or just plain been aggressively HOT towards me. Now that would have gotten some results! But he was too much of one of these "NIce Guys" that the Book I suggested talks about. 

My husband is also very CALM/stable, forever drives the speed limit (I am more the lead foot), always level headed & pretty much "predictable". Sometimes this bugs me. If I had not taken the bull by the horns myself in demanding things get spiced up between us, if I was waiting for him to discover this in himself, well I think I would have been disapointed. 

But then this is my Mid Life Crisis, I suddenly felt like being YOUNG at heart , doing all the things we missed when we were young & too religious & boring, when most are more reckless, exciting, living for the moment. I KNOW I changed more than him but I was determined to take him on this journey with me and thankfully he was Happy to come along. 

I can see women getting bored if they have a fire in them & are expecting someone else to set it ablaze, some of us women get this way in Mid Life, hers may not be sexual (like mine) but a flurry of new & exciting activity, some other passion and maybe she needed you to share in that ??? I am pretty aggressive by nature, so I actively pursue what I want, maybe your wife is not like this, so it was easier for her to just move along.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Southbound, do you think the one big answer to why your wife wants a divorce will be found from strangers on an internet forum that don't know the details about your life? These answers that only your wife can possibly know? I understand you're going through a grieving process due to the loss of your marriage and you're desperately searching for some magic reason. I do wish I had it or that anyone here had it but it is very unlikely. If you feel you can't ask her or doubt her ability to know the answer, it is likely this fact alone contributes more to your break up than any ideation that you being not manly enough does.
> 
> My husband is not manly in that he does not watch sports games or hang out with the guys to drink beers and he has always helped with housework and the kids even though I'm a stay at home mom. He does; however, have confidence in his masculinity enough to know that he doesn't have to behave like a walking stereotype in order to be a great man.
> 
> Conrad, advice on this board would be much more helpful if a select few of male posters recognized that women are more than capable of knowing what they want and answering questions about what is going on inside of them. A man pretending to be a retard because someone called him this at one time and he can't let it go, should try to recognize this.


Trenton,

How do you feel about people actually owning up to what they've done and apologizing for it?

That post was an insult to this entire board.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Conrad, advice on this board would be much more helpful if a select few of male posters recognized that women are more than capable of knowing what they want and answering questions about what is going on inside of them. A man pretending to be a retard because someone called him this at one time and he can't let it go, should try to recognize this.


I made a comment about retards once quoting something my husband said. Was it me who supposedly called Conrad this? How did I not get banned for name calling? And I sure don't remember calling him that by name, so what makes him think I was calling HIM that?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Conrad calls himself a "retard." 

Conrad, I don't think Trenton's post was the least bit rude. Please review her language and show us where she was disrespectful--seriously. Her whole tone is avery adult, honest, and respectful disagreement with the ideas--expressed here--that women are somehow too emotional and less rational. It simply isn't true. Some women have been allowed to be childish and emotional. Real women, like real men, use their heads. If your personal experience has been with an immature woman, look at yourself b/c you are the one picking that/those women. You seem to have difficulty with assertive women; why might that be?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

southbound said:


> I appreciate everyone's comments. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel I need a definition of what adult is to a woman. I feel like I act too mature for my wife and perhaps that has turned her off. I am a very level headed person who manages money well and always wants to approach things in a logical, safe manner. I can certainly take care of myself in all areas. I'm the guy who drives safely with the kids, etc. I am 42 and have also slacked off in playing games, such as volleyball, at summer gatherings, and board games at winter gatherings. I've just lost interest as I've gotten older and she seems to not like this. If anything, she seems to get more activity oriented as she gets older. She also thinks its weird and boring to enjoy watching the History channel, for example. Perhaps she thinks she's living with an old man while she gets more activity oriented.



Southbound is your wife around the same age as you? Is it menopause time? You’re 42, coming up for midlife change?

The whole dynamics of the relationship in a marriage can change dramatically in these phases of each partner’s life. What was good and valid before … well simply isn’t good and valid anymore. Menopause can be truly big for some women, it’s a huge change biologically, emotionally and psychologically.

At these times in people’s lives they realise that a major phase in their life is over, it’s history. But they look at and examine that history while keeping their eye on their future. This is the time when people’s lives can undergo massive change, even to the extent of changing partners in order to get what they truly feel they want out of life.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Deejo said:


> southbound,
> 
> where do things currently stand? Are you divorced or in the process? Are you still under the same roof?
> 
> ...



My divorce bacame final a few days ago and we had been seperated for several weeks. Reconciliation is no longer possible, but being able to understand why she wanted a divorce would help me move on mentally. I won't bore everyone with the details that I have listed in other posts, but it's basically an "I'm no longer happy" thing that came out of the blue, even though she claims now that she has been unhappy for years. As for wanting unpredictable, etc. that is never who I have been and she seemed to love that about me in the beginning. She comes from a family who manufactures more drama in a year than I could dream up in a lifetime. She seemed to like the calm, laid back personality of my family and me in the beginning. She openly admits she hates drama.




SimplyAmorous said:


> Southbound:
> 
> My husband was like you, he read on the internet that helping me do dishes, housework would get him more sex back in the day when I was too much into our kids & other things. When he told me this many yrs later, I just laughed - I had NO inkling what was on his mind, and furthermore, for me personally, that was simply NOT how to deal with me at all, I found that advice completely stupid. (but I am not an Acts of Service type woman at all).
> 
> ...


Perhaps she is wanting to have more excitement and feels that old boring me can't supply it. We were fairly dull in our younger years, but that seemed to be totally how she liked it. She would verbally put down other people's acts of wildness, etc, but perhaps she is now ready to experience it.




AFEH said:


> Southbound is your wife around the same age as you? Is it menopause time? You’re 42, coming up for midlife change?
> 
> The whole dynamics of the relationship in a marriage can change dramatically in these phases of each partner’s life. What was good and valid before … well simply isn’t good and valid anymore. Menopause can be truly big for some women, it’s a huge change biologically, emotionally and psychologically.
> 
> At these times in people’s lives they realise that a major phase in their life is over, it’s history. But they look at and examine that history while keeping their eye on their future. This is the time when people’s lives can undergo massive change, even to the extent of changing partners in order to get what they truly feel they want out of life.


My wife is 37. I wonder if people who seemed calm in their early years ever regret changing partners for more excitement?


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

My ex (married 20 years) would have called my current SO a P***y. However...my SO is 100 times the man my ex will NEVER be. (or would have been, I should say as he is deceased) My ex was what I call a "knuckle dragging neaderthal" whose idea of "masculinity" was a bunch of insecure macho posturing. No use or time for that crap anymore. 

I guess my definition of "masculine" differs now. Lessons learned the hard way. If you're a laid back kinda guy, so be it. It's who you are. You don't have to change yourself. If I could I would personally thank the women in my SOs past who wanted more drama and "excitement". That left him wide open for me. You'll find someone who really appreciates whatever it is that YOU have to offer. Step out of your box. Find the woman who would rather cut off her right arm than to do drama again. They do exist.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

southbound said:


> My divorce bacame final a few days ago and we had been seperated for several weeks. Reconciliation is no longer possible, but being able to understand why she wanted a divorce would help me move on mentally. I won't bore everyone with the details that I have listed in other posts, but it's basically an "I'm no longer happy" thing that came out of the blue, even though she claims now that she has been unhappy for years. As for wanting unpredictable, etc. that is never who I have been and she seemed to love that about me in the beginning. She comes from a family who manufactures more drama in a year than I could dream up in a lifetime. She seemed to like the calm, laid back personality of my family and me in the beginning. She openly admits she hates drama.
> 
> Perhaps she is wanting to have more excitement and feels that old boring me can't supply it. We were fairly dull in our younger years, but that seemed to be totally how she liked it. She would verbally put down other people's acts of wildness, etc, but perhaps she is now ready to experience it.


Do you know if there is/was someone else? Often when they shut down so quickly, and whip out the "I haven't been happy for years..." there is a very distinct reason.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Do you know if there is/was someone else? Often when they shut down so quickly, and whip out the "I haven't been happy for years..." there is a very distinct reason.


There doesn't appear to be anyone else, but several other people have asked the same question. This may sound strange, but I think it would help explain things if there was somebody else. It seems weird that she is just so sick of me that she doesn't even need a replacement; she just wants rid of me.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

From my experience and utter frustrations during my youth and then later learning to how to appreciate and love a woman I've learnt...

Women don't want nice guys, women don't want bad boys either...
Women... WANT IT ALL! -.- 

After a while you just used to it and find some fun playing the game actually but until then, bleh...

EDIT: Oh yeah I forgot rich guys, smart guys, funny guys, etc etc bleh


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

RandomDude, Yes!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Do women want masculine men?

No - they want us to cry at the drop of a hat, listen to Barry Mannilow, and be COMPLETE gentlemen in bed. 

And Vacuum. Above all else - vacuum.

Sometimes I don't read everything. Sue me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Do women want masculine men?
> 
> No - they want us to cry at the drop of a hat, listen to Barry Mannilow, and be COMPLETE gentlemen in bed.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the sexy a$$chaps and I just might sue you so be careful.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

What is a vacuum?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

See - they want us to vacuum in kinky costumes.

Meanwhile, they'll be out at a bar, enjoying attention from some guy who can't even spell "vacuum."


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> See - they want us to vacuum in kinky costumes.
> 
> Meanwhile, they'll be out at a bar, enjoying attention from some guy who can't even spell "vacuum."


Oh what little faith you have in your woman.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What is a vacuum?


NG has a Dyson and he thinks it makes him a bada$$ but go ahead and ask him what color his Dyson is!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Tsk, tsk. NG also plays bass guitar so that makes him a bada$$ in my book.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Bass is black. Dyson is purple (not yellow - shows how little I've been using it...)


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

We are biased, Brennan, we both have crushes on NG


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

For the record, when I hear "masculine men" I think of those idiots at Sturgis. That is the LAST type of guy I want. 
Body and looks wise, I think Ashton Kutcher. Not sure if women consider him "manly".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

This may help a bit.

Masculinity is largely decisiveness and confidence.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Bass is black. Dyson is purple (not yellow - shows how little I've been using it...)


I was going to correct you but I wasn't positive and figured you'd know the color of your Dyson better than I did. heh


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Conrad said:


> This may help a bit.
> 
> Masculinity is largely decisiveness and confidence.


Hmmm, well if that's what it means, then yes, I am on board. I think society views it a tad differently though.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> From my experience and utter frustrations during my youth and then later learning to how to appreciate and love a woman I've learnt...
> 
> Women don't want nice guys, women don't want bad boys either...
> Women... WANT IT ALL! -.-
> ...


You are probably right. After reading various postings on this forum, I've concluded that relationships are far more complicated than I ever thought they were or should be, and I think that is sad. Why can't we all just be logical and easy to understand and let it be?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

We at TAM should collaborate and write a Cliff Notes version of relationships or rather the meanings of what each sex means. 
A husband saying "Honey, I loaded the dishwasher and the cat box is cleaned out" means he expects sex later that night.
A wife saying "Honey, don't make a big deal out of my birthday" means she wants you to make a big deal out of her birthday.
We could make a fortune on this book and save alot of couples the heartache of having to guess intent.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> From my experience and utter frustrations during my youth and then later learning to how to appreciate and love a woman I've learnt...
> 
> Women don't want nice guys, women don't want bad boys either...
> Women... WANT IT ALL! -.-
> ...


Women are difficult to deal with, aren't they? 

How about men with all their desires? Thirst about money, thirst about power!

Back to the main problem, we are human!


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Brennan said:


> We at TAM should collaborate and write a Cliff Notes version of relationships or rather the meanings of what each sex means.
> A husband saying "Honey, I loaded the dishwasher and the cat box is cleaned out" means he expects sex later that night.
> A wife saying "Honey, don't make a big deal out of my birthday" means she wants you to make a big deal out of her birthday.
> We could make a fortune on this book and save alot of couples the heartache of having to guess intent.


True. It doesn't help when men and women often think totally opposite on things. We often say "treat others the way you would want to be treated." That has gotten me in trouble. I never treated my wife badly intentionally. If I ever neglected her birthday, for example, it wasn't because I was intentionally being mean, It was just because I couldn't care less if she didn't make a big deal out of my birthday, so I guess I thought she should feel the same. Mistake!!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

southbound said:


> True. It doesn't help when men and women often think totally opposite on things. We often say "treat others the way you would want to be treated." That has gotten me in trouble. I never treated my wife badly intentionally. If I ever neglected her birthday, for example, it wasn't because I was intentionally being mean, It was just because I couldn't care less if she didn't make a big deal out of my birthday, so I guess I thought she should feel the same. Mistake!!!!


One of the worst mistakes I made was in the beginning of our marriage when money was really, really, really tight, I told him to not buy me a gift for my birthday and Christmas because we were having such a hard time. Guess what? I did want a gift, I just felt guilty for asking for one as we were struggling with finances and a newborn. 
I made him our first Christmas ornament as his Christmas gift. It was a hand painted glass ball. It cost me $1.00, glass ornament and paint. I spent 7 hours painting it. It was a "painting" of us from a photo, albeit I was a terrible "artist".
Over the early years of struggling, he got used to not buying me a gift, as I said let's focus on our son and let's save our money to buy family gifts. We went to his parents house every year for Christmas and I watched as they unwrapped "our" gifts and oh'd and ah'd over what we got them. Me? I got nothing but I always made or bought him something. 
I got tired of being neglected and started to buy my own, wrap it and put it under the tree.
Nothing lavish, just something special that I wanted. A $15 makeup bag or a $50 crock pot. He never and I mean never put a gift under the tree for me. Not once. I think he really thinks that I LITERALLY want nothing for Christmas despite that now our finances have changed. 
Now? He makes low six figures and to date has never bought me a Christmas present, 17 years later. LITERALLY. He thinks that I will buy what I want, despite me telling him that I want HIM to buy me a Christmas gift. 
I would KILL for a $1 ornament that he spent 7 hours painting just because he loves me so much. I really would.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> I would KILL for a $1 ornament that he spent 7 hours painting just because he loves me so much. I really would.


Now's too late for this year, but I really think you ought to tell him that youve changed your mind about gift giving. That you want a gift on your birthday, anniversary and for Christmas.

Tell him this on a day you have his full attention and you two are not arguing.

You've trained him to not get you one.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

michzz said:


> Now's too late for this year, but I really think you ought to tell him that youve changed your mind about gift giving. That you want a gift on your birthday, anniversary and for Christmas.
> 
> Tell him this on a day you have his full attention and you two are not arguing.
> 
> You've trained him to not get you one.


I already have. Guess what? Now he is moaning about finances as he is about to lose his job. There's always something I guess. 
Yeah, a $1 ornament is too much. Bottom line? I now realize that I don't matter, I don't think I ever did. I was just his "ideal", if you will.
I now see it with crystal clear clarity. I have tried to help him through this funk and many, many other funks but now I realize that I was never as important to him as he was to him.
I think 2011 spells a separation for us or a divorce. I really do.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> I think 2011 spells a separation for us or a divorce. I really do.


Here's to a better year in 2011 whatever happens.


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## Threetimesalady (Dec 22, 2010)

I wanted a jock..Someone who loved sports as I did...He didn't have to be rich, but turn me to mush...He was adorable and I loved him from the moment I saw him...To this day he drives me wild...I wanted a man that I could not push around...Someone who could look at me and let me know that this is enough...Someone that I respected, yet craved...I found it and I will thank God for him every day of my life....Is he masculine?....You have got to be kidding...More women have tried to bed him down since we have been married than I would have ever believed...But, that's another story....He's sexy and loves me to death...Need I say more...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Next time, men should ask this question. 

Who am I? What kind of woman is good for me? what kind of woman is in my charming power?


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## Threetimesalady (Dec 22, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Next time, men should ask this question.
> 
> Who am I? What kind of woman is good for me? what kind of woman is in my charming power?


One who is infatuated with you when she meets you...One who shares your interests in life....One who you are not afraid to let your guard down with and one that does not flirt with other men because you are her beloved....Lastly, one who loves you for yourself...Loves every part of your body and considers herself the luckiest woman in the world for finding you....


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Loves every part of your body and considers herself the luckiest woman in the world for finding you....


I think that's the problem, this missus is getting spoiled. Thought oh hey, she's the mother of my kid, shouldn't be too much of an ass, seems like not being an ass I've been kissing her ass too in a way so to speak...

Time to remind her what's she's missing out on...


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

Reading this thread reminds me of just how far I've come in life. How much *I* have changed. I wouldn't look twice at the kind of man who USED to attract me. No way in hell.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

southbound said:


> Do women want a masculine man regardless of what they may say? If so, what are the characteristics? The reason I ask is this: Whatever it was that I was 18 years ago, my wife seemed to love it. I'm as John Wayne as they come, but I was never the type of guy to tinker around in the garage or do a lot under the hood of a car. I'm more of an indoors guy and, therefore, did a lot of washing dishes, vacuming, washing clothes, etc. I spent 18 years thinking my wife, or any wife, would like this, but I now realize that wasn't her love language. So, could that have had just the opposite affect. Could she have thought I was just a big sissy for doing all that and ,therefore, not attractive? Would she rather I had been out slaying a deer for supper with my bare hands? What level of masculinity do most women need to find their partner attractive?




Maybe it’s best to focus on what’s good for you as the man you are and be that man. Rather than kind of pamper to what you believe another person’s needs are.

Sure there’ll be compromise in any marriage. But you can way over compromise the man you are meant to be … and lose out at the same time. Some lessons in life come hard but those type can be the most meaningful and the catalyst for great change in ourselves.

So make up your mind about the man you want to be, be that man and most definitely have values and beliefs about yourself that you will never compromise under any circumstances. Stand up and be counted type of thing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> For the record, when I hear "masculine men" I think of those idiots at Sturgis. That is the LAST type of guy I want.
> Body and looks wise, I think Ashton Kutcher. Not sure if women consider him "manly".



From that point of view I’ve heard two terms “Man’s man” and “Lady’s man”. Lady’s men actually somehow give me the creeps.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

southbound said:


> You are probably right. After reading various postings on this forum, I've concluded that relationships are far more complicated than I ever thought they were or should be, and I think that is sad. Why can't we all just be logical and easy to understand and let it be?



Because human beings are involved, not robots or machines. Those human beings have feelings and emotions, values and beliefs and some very deliberately remain a mystery. Some are seriously dishonest and lie and cheat, others are honest and wide open, what you see is what you get. Each and every one of the billions of people on Earth is unique in their own special way. Some are not meant to be understood except by a few select people and it goes on and on.

The answers 42. Now what was that question?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Threetimesalady said:


> One who is infatuated with you when she meets you...One who shares your interests in life....One who you are not afraid to let your guard down with and one that does not flirt with other men because you are her beloved....Lastly, one who loves you for yourself...Loves every part of your body and considers herself the luckiest woman in the world for finding you....


Sounds like we are lucky women!!!

We are married to men who we love and cherish. We are married to men who love and cherish us!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Bottom line? I now realize that I don't matter, I don't think I ever did. I was just his "ideal", if you will.
> I now see it with crystal clear clarity. I have tried to help him through this funk and many, many other funks but now I realize that I was never as important to him as he was to him.
> I think 2011 spells a separation for us or a divorce. I really do.


Didn't quite see that coming. Haven't noticed you posting as much lately - at least not in the Men's Clubhouse.

Sorry to hear...


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I can tell you for me, personally, I'll take any man that will show me love, respect and desire.

I don't give a damn at this point if he's John Wayne or Neil Harris!


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## Threetimesalady (Dec 22, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Sounds like we are lucky women!!!
> 
> We are married to men who we love and cherish. We are married to men who love and cherish us!


I love him more than my own life....I have been blessed....


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