# what kind of person cheats?



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

So in my spree here lol... one thing that haunts me is, what kind of person cheats? if your spouse cheats on you, what does that mean about THEM?

I've had to think long and hard about this myself and I'm still not coming to a total conclusion here... i know when i found out my h cheated that i had to reassess everything i thought I knew about him. Thoughts?


----------



## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

A selfish one


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> A selfish one


yes, right, but we are all a little selfish sometimes? my question is, is EVERYONE capable of doing this? or does it take a special personality flaw?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

One with poor boundaries and a real wicked selfish streak.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> One with poor boundaries and a real wicked selfish streak.


oohh i like this. care to expand 'poor boundaries'? and capable of being more selfish than the average person? I've thought about that...


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

It does take a major character flaw. Or mental illness.

Why is it so many people is very difficult situations where betraying could be pretty much justified never do? Why is it the vast majority of betrayers do it for fun, or simply because they can?

No, people either are or are not betrayers.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> It does take a major character flaw. Or mental illness.
> 
> Why is it so many people is very difficult situations where betraying could be pretty much justified never do? Why is it the vast majority of betrayers do it for fun, or simply because they can?
> 
> No, people either are or are not betrayers.


yes.. my h was 'stressed out' and his response was to screw the first person who offered. that's one thing i'd add to this also... poor coping abilities, combined with poor boundaries, combined with selfish streak that can come out sometimes...


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

redtulips said:


> So in my spree here lol... one thing that haunts me is, what kind of person cheats? if your spouse cheats on you, what does that mean about THEM?
> 
> I've had to think long and hard about this myself and I'm still not coming to a total conclusion here... i know when i found out my h cheated that i had to reassess everything i thought I knew about him. Thoughts?


We are all fallible and every scenario is unique red. Sure there are trends when comparing people who have cheated against people who have not but make no mistake. Some good people have cheated. They generally are the ones who only do it once.

That being said, the act of cheating is of low character or insecurity and is insensitive or naive to the effects it may have.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Poor boundaries - like getting drunk with members of the opposite sex, allowing members of the opposite sex to become too close emotionally...people who have no sense of what is appropriate or acoping mechanism that won't allow them to go out and bed down someone else.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Ok by the way Wss should feel like they can add in their insights here...i'm not actually trying to just bash people here. I'm looking for helpful insight here.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thundarr good thoughts, thanks!

truth i think those are good examples. In my h's case he got drunk with this woman first, after crossing boundaries sharing personal stuff with her that was really too much, sounds like that can be a common issue.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Some good people have cheated.


I don't believe this for a second.

Betrayers, and the damage they do, are not good people. If they were so good, they would not betray.

Betraying is the single worse thing (aside maybe from selling your children into sex slavery) one human can do to another within the confines of a relationship and there is nothing good about them.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I don't believe this for a second.
> 
> Betrayers, and the damage they do, are not good people. If they were so good, they would not betray.
> 
> Betraying is the single worse thing (aside maybe from selling your children into sex slavery) one human can do to another within the confines of a relationship and there is nothing good about them.


I don't know that I agree with this! 'otherwise' good people can do this, but i agree in that case it's gonna be a 'one time thing'. I suppose only time will tell what you're dealing with that way.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I think a ONS is a different animal than a LTA or serial cheating.


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

IMHO I think it is a choice. 

Wasn't the least bit difficult for me to be faithful, whatsoever. 
I had plenty of offers and opportunities, shut every single one down without question or a moment to think period. And I am being completely honest here. 

It's called self-control. Cheaters don't use any, doesn't matter what reason led them to it...it is still a decision and then an act on it. Plenty of opportunity to say no, leave your pants on, keep your mouth closed and your hands and orifices to your self.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Well, I'll never justify a betrayer with that kind of logic.

No one betrays unless they just want to. Be it once or be it 1,000 times the end result is the same as is the type of person who does so.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think a ONS is a different animal than a LTA or serial cheating.


I really agree with this... people can make mistakes, doesn't make it OK by any means, and they need to do hard work to figure that out and earn back trust and all that, but... it's gonna mean different things


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Well, I'll never justify a betrayer with that kind of logic.
> 
> No one betrays unless they just want to. Be it once or be it 1,000 times the end result is the same as is the type of person who does so.


it's not possible that an otherwise decent person makes a terrible one time decision? this is a little hardcore...


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Unique Username said:


> IMHO I think it is a choice.
> 
> Wasn't the least bit difficult for me to be faithful, whatsoever.
> I had plenty of offers and opportunities, shut every single one down without question or a moment to think period. And I am being completely honest here.
> ...


I agree... a CHOICE was made... that interests me.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> I really agree with this... people can make mistakes, doesn't make it OK by any means, and they need to do hard work to figure that out and earn back trust and all that, but... it's gonna mean different things


Baloney (with respect).

Burning the meatloaf is a mistake. 

Screwing someone not your spouse is a betrayal against them, the marriage and the family as a whole.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> I agree... a CHOICE was made... that interests me.


Yes, a choice. A choice to betray or not to. If it's yes, then it makes no difference if it's once or more.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Baloney (with respect).
> 
> Burning the meatloaf is a mistake.
> 
> Screwing someone not your spouse is a betrayal against them, the marriage and the family as a whole.


Agree it is a choice be it once or a million times but if its once and the spouse is full of remorse I can see why a couple would work it out.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Baloney (with respect).
> 
> Burning the meatloaf is a mistake.
> 
> Screwing someone not your spouse is a betrayal against them, the marriage and the family as a whole.


don't get me wrong... it's a choice, a terrible and destructive one, but giving into temptation once and doing it repeatedly for one thing is not ... totally the same deal. It's a lot to think about!


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree it is a choice be it once or a million times but if its once and the spouse is full of remorse I can see why a couple would work it out.


If they can, that's great. But either way they rarely really do with much effect.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> If they can, that's great. But either way they rarely really do with much effect.


ooohh.. i'm working it out. so far so good!


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> don't get me wrong... it's a choice, a terrible and destructive one, but giving into temptation once and doing it repeatedly for one thing is not ... totally the same deal. It's a lot to think about!


I see the logic in 'giving into temptation', but to me a person is or is not a betrayer. And an excuse like "I gave into temptation just the once..." to me is a cheap excuse.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I see the logic in 'giving into temptation', but to me a person is or is not a betrayer. And an excuse like "I gave into temptation just the once..." to me is a cheap excuse.


I agree with u completely if thats all they can offer. I think it takes deep and honest soul searching to understand and come to terms with all of the issues that would lead someone to do this.... and in the context of doing all that ..that's a sign of an otherwise good person who did something terrible that they honestly regret.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> ..that's a sign of an otherwise good person who did something terrible that they honestly regret.


Not to be contrary (because I like your posts and the back and forth...) but to say, "they betrayed me and have zero respect for me, our marriage, the family, the kids... but, gee, aside from that they're a great person!", makes no sense at all. 

To me, the lowlifes of this earth are pedophiles and betrayers- and once it all it takes. 

I mean, "hey, all he did was rape on little boy. But aside from that, what a great guy!".

Really?

REALLY??


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Not to be contrary (because I like your posts and the back and forth...) but to say, "they betrayed me and have zero respect for me, our marriage, the family, the kids... but, gee, aside from that they're a great person!", makes no sense at all.
> 
> To me, the lowlifes of this earth are pedophiles and betrayers- and once it all it takes.
> 
> ...


 Huh? no. My h is a loving father, he works hard, he's kind.. there are a lot of good things about him besides his cheating. Those are facts about him that he lives day in and day out... that means something too.


----------



## Depressedguy (Jul 10, 2012)

redtulips said:


> So in my spree here lol... one thing that haunts me is, what kind of person cheats? if your spouse cheats on you, what does that mean about THEM?
> 
> I've had to think long and hard about this myself and I'm still not coming to a total conclusion here... i know when i found out my h cheated that i had to reassess everything i thought I knew about him. Thoughts?


It varies from one person to another as to why they might cheat.
Although its never justified, it can be emotional like an experience something pleasant outside a disastrous relationship to being strategic and aiming for someone better.
My ex had an affair right after our marriage that she always begged me for it. and not just cheating, she did the worst thing someone could ever do that I am yet to see ANUYONE experience even on this forum. 
I thought about the same thing over and over and in my case, she didn’t know what she wanted. She worked really hard to have me and then went to try something new and lost everything. 
Her personality is to never settle down and always aims for better. 
In the world of business, she succeeded BIG time, changed jobs and left places the minute there was a better opportunity but …
Same strategy doesn’t apply for an emotional relationship. 
You just need to see what kind of person YOU are dealing with?
A businessman? An opportunist? Looking for emotional satisfaction? A sex freak?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Unique Username said:


> IMHO I think it is a choice.
> 
> Wasn't the least bit difficult for me to be faithful, whatsoever.
> I had plenty of offers and opportunities, shut every single one down without question or a moment to think period. And I am being completely honest here.
> ...


I'm not defending cheaters but scenarios define a different kind of person. There are differences between someone who cheats on a boyfriend or girlfriend at age 18; a married serial cheater; those who cheat due to low self esteem and weakness; those who cheat due to poor boundaries and arrogance; Those who cheat due to indifference and opportunity.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> Huh? no. My h is a loving father, he works hard, he's kind.. there are a lot of good things about him besides his cheating. Those are facts about him that he lives day in and day out... that means something too.


It also means something that he had a choice. To love and respect or not to. A simple choice. And it was made. Decisively. And nothing can change that. My first wife read her Bible and prayed 2-3 hours every day I knew her. She helped the poor and disadvantaged like Mother Teresa. No joke. 

But she also turned her back on a loving man and daughter to get some kicks and excitement in life. 

I fail to see what makes her so wonderful.

Or anyone who does such things.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> I'm not defending cheaters but scenarios define a different kind of person. There are differences between someone who cheats on a boyfriend or girlfriend at age 18; a married serial cheater; those who cheat due to low self esteem and weakness; those who cheat due to poor boundaries and arrogance; Those who cheat due to indifference and opportunity.


Yeah the variations are enourmous but the common denominator is pure selfishness.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

What kind of person cheats? I don't think their is a certain kind. There are many kinds. From my experience, I think you can go to any gathering of 100 or more adults, pick 50% and you would have a good sample of the kind that cheats/would cheat.
As close as I could get identifying a "kind", one thing you'll find among the population of cheaters is a low romantic interest in their mate.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> It also means something that he had a choice. To love and respect or not to. A simple choice. And it was made. Decisively. And nothing can change that. My first wife read her Bible and prayed 2-3 hours every day I knew her. She helped the poor and disadvantaged like Mother Teresa. No joke.
> 
> But she also turned her back on a loving man and daughter to get some kicks and excitement in life.
> 
> ...


that's your choice and i respect you for that. However that doesn't change things. You've decided you can't live with that whatsoever. I've had to make a choice for myself and my life and the fact that my h has mostly good qualities matters to me.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> that's your choice and i respect you for that. However that doesn't change things. You've decided you can't live with that whatsoever. I've had to make a choice for myself and my life and the fact that my h has mostly good qualities matters to me.


I wish the best for you.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I wish the best for you.


ty.. me too!

and for you too


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> It also means something that he had a choice. To love and respect or not to. A simple choice. And it was made. Decisively. And nothing can change that. My first wife read her Bible and prayed 2-3 hours every day I knew her. She helped the poor and disadvantaged like Mother Teresa. No joke.
> 
> But she also turned her back on a loving man and daughter to get some kicks and excitement in life.
> 
> ...


Do you see your first wife often since you have a daughter? Do you share the same kind of love wiht your second wife?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Not to be contrary (because I like your posts and the back and forth...) but to say, "they betrayed me and have zero respect for me, our marriage, the family, the kids... but, gee, aside from that they're a great person!", makes no sense at all.
> 
> To me, the lowlifes of this earth are pedophiles and betrayers- and once it all it takes.
> 
> ...


Infidelity has consequences. It makes those betrayed hate, resent, or mistrust you. I've never cheated but my EX cheated on me and I divorced her. No she was not a good person but that doesn't mean everyone who has ever cheated is evil. Some change, most don't.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you see your first wife often since you have a daughter? Do you share the same kind of love wiht your second wife?


I do see her once or twice a year. I'm civil. That last time (2 weeks ago at our grand daughter's birthday) she apologized for her "mistakes". 

Sadly, no. My second marriage is a friendship one. We felt so alike that we decided to marry. My first marriage was more of a passionate love.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Yeah the variations are enourmous but the common denominator is pure selfishness.


This is true Truthseeker. Infidelity cannot happen when thinking of their partner. I'm not defending people who cheat. It's a selfish cruel thing to do.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Infidelity has consequences. It makes those betrayed hate, resent, or mistrust you. I've never cheated but my EX cheated on me and I divorced her. No she was not a good person but that doesn't mean everyone who has ever cheated is evil. Some change, most don't.


I think those with the betraying DNA never lose it. They just learn to use it more discretely or less destructively.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I think those with the betraying DNA never lose it. They just learn to use it more discretely or less destructively.


ooo i mean do you have evidence of this? that once a cheater ALWAYS a cheater sorta deal?


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> This is true Truthseeker. Infidelity cannot happen when thinking of their partner. I'm not defending people who cheat. It's a selfish cruel thing to do.


This is a very simple statement, but so true.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I do see her once or twice a year. I'm civil. That last time (2 weeks ago at our grand daughter's birthday) she apologized for her "mistakes".
> 
> Sadly, no. My second marriage is a friendship one. We felt so alike that we decided to marry. My first marriage was more of a passionate love.


But unlike the first wife she is faithful right? Does the first wife want to reunite?


----------



## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

redtulips said:


> So in my spree here lol... one thing that haunts me is, what kind of person cheats? if your spouse cheats on you, what does that mean about THEM?
> 
> I've had to think long and hard about this myself and I'm still not coming to a total conclusion here... i know when i found out my h cheated that i had to reassess everything i thought I knew about him. Thoughts?


I can only speak for myself. I wouldn't presume to speak for all WS or compare them to pedophiles. 

I was a stupid, lonely, sad little person. I was misguided and arrogant in a way. I could handle my "friendship." I DESERVED something other than crying alone at night. I knew little about boundaries and appropriate defenses against "harmless" talk. 

I love family dearly. I will skip meals/sleep to make sure they are taken care of. When we were broke, I literally deprived myself of meat to make sure my husband had plenty of food to take to work. Being self sacrificing is NOT a good thing, I have learned. Being balanced and honest and open IS. My husband is strong and smart enough to help me in my journey. 

Thankfully my husband has seen that I was stupid, arrogant, entitled, misguided, exhausted, depressed, moronic and selfish but I don't want to be that person anymore. I'm a mishmash of flaws.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> ooo i mean do you have evidence of this? that once a cheater ALWAYS a cheater sorta deal?


I think so.

I am in my late 50's now and have seen a LOT of the world and in my line of work meet tens of thousands of people. In a way, people are my hobby.

There are no "accidental" betrayers. 

People either are, or are not betrayers. That's all there is to it.

Now, that said, I have seen betrayers not betray in the flesh again, but the propensity and addictive behavior still remains. An alcoholic is still an alcoholic even if they are sober. They may want a drink. They may dream of a drink. They may see a drink as a way to deal with life's problems... But they may not drink and they are still an alcoholic. A betrayer is the same mentality for the most part. They may not slip between the sheets again, but it is still their main coping mechanism for excitement, or risk or solving problems... And professional research supports that.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> ooo i mean do you have evidence of this? that once a cheater ALWAYS a cheater sorta deal?


One of many examples....

12 Warning Signs That It’s Emotional Infidelity – And Not ‘Just Friendship’ | Neuroscience and Relationships


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I think so.
> 
> I am in my late 50's now and have seen a LOT of the world and in my line of work meet tens of thousands of people. In a way, people are my hobby.
> 
> ...


What if they deal with the underlying issues? like an addict say,... deal with the behaviors underneath and work to overcome them?


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> One of many examples....
> 
> 12 Warning Signs That It’s Emotional Infidelity – And Not ‘Just Friendship’ | Neuroscience and Relationships


k thanks this looks interesting


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

redtulips said:


> What if they deal with the underlying issues? like an addict say,... deal with the behaviors underneath and work to overcome them?


I do think it is possible for a WS to change but the damage they have done to the BS lasts forever. That is the tragedy of the situation.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> But unlike the first wife she is faithful right? Does the first wife want to reunite?


I agreed to reconcile after she ran off with a rich guy. I even tried to after her second betrayal. Then after I found her kissing some guy a few months later, I just left and divorced her. 

A few years ago she contacted me, and actually wanted to divorce her second husband and me divorce my wife and remarry. I said, "no".

My second wife got caught in an EA, discovered it, went to a counselor and asked for help and dropped him immediately. She wasn't very forthcoming with me, but I was already on the scent. I hate to say this, but I had built up a case against her 1,000 times worse than it really was and she was mortified. We have worked it out.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> Thankfully my husband has seen that I was stupid, arrogant, entitled, misguided, exhausted, depressed, moronic and selfish but I don't want to be that person anymore. I'm a mishmash of flaws.


Your humble acknowledgement is hope Annie. No it's not going away and it can't be undone but that's what is takes sometimes. We learn from mistakes. We become better people by learning from our past and our consequences.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> I can only speak for myself. I wouldn't presume to speak for all WS or compare them to pedophiles.
> 
> I was a stupid, lonely, sad little person. I was misguided and arrogant in a way. I could handle my "friendship." I DESERVED something other than crying alone at night. I knew little about boundaries and appropriate defenses against "harmless" talk.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I don't believe this for a second.
> 
> Betrayers, and the damage they do, are not good people. If they were so good, they would not betray.
> 
> Betraying is the single worse thing (aside maybe from selling your children into sex slavery) one human can do to another within the confines of a relationship and there is nothing good about them.


I don't know bpguy ... that would automatically make about half the people in this country bad people. Add the other percentage that do bad things but haven't cheated and you've got what ... 10% of the population who are actually good?

What is the definition of a bad person?

I'll just throw this out there ... one thing that strikes me about many cheaters is a lack of empathy. They do not seem to realize the pain they are inflicting or could potentially inflict on the people in their lives. I'm sure if they had an understanding of that, most would not do it. Is that what defines a "bad" person? Maybe it does. I am sure that some of the world's worst criminals and despots genuinely believed that what they were doing was right but they lacked empathy for their victims. Hitler comes to mind. That's not really true of most cheaters though ... most I think at some level know that what they are doing isn't right but they choose to do it anyway. Wow, that makes them worse than Hitler, right? lol

Ha! Enough of this silliness ... time to go to bed.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> What if they deal with the underlying issues? like an addict say,... deal with the behaviors underneath and work to overcome them?


That seems plausible. But I think something far more than simple counseling would be required. An addiction is so very powerful. And like all addicts, betrayers live in denial of their addictions. But if they take the addiction seriously, get serious professional help and make it a life long fight (lie going to the equivalent of AA meetings the rest of their life...) and have true accountability it can be fought with pretty good success I would think.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I don't know bpguy ... that would automatically make about half the people in this country bad people. Add the other percentage that do bad things but haven't cheated and you've got what ... 10% of the population who are actually good?
> 
> What is the definition of a bad person?
> 
> ...


If marriage in America truly has a 50% infidelity rate then the marriage license should come with a warning that marriage could be hazardous to your health. I've read the rate is somewhere around 1/4 of marriages experience infidelity in America. If it is truly 50% then why even bother getting married?


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> That seems plausible. But I think something far more than simple counseling would be required. An addiction is so very powerful. And like all addicts, betrayers live in denial of their addictions. But if they take the addiction seriously, get serious professional help and make it a life long fight (lie going to the equivalent of AA meetings the rest of their life...) and have true accountability it can be fought with pretty good success I would think.


They have to really really want it right? i guess that's been a big thing for me, knowing how much of it is a game and how much is that they want to be better people, be good husbands and wives... and then there's degrees of it i'd think, as there are degrees of alcoholism or any SERIOUS problem.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do think it is possible for a WS to change but the damage they have done to the BS lasts forever. That is the tragedy of the situation.


And therein lies one of the problems with reconciliation...

Here is what I think is a good example.

If I run a red light and strike another vehicle and cause the driver to lose their legs, do I feel remorse? Very much so. And I deeply humbled? Yes! Am I contrite? More than you can imagine!! But do I know what it's like to even remotely know what it's like to lose my legs? Not even a clue. I can try and imagine, but I fail to even begin. And so, I, with my legs attached eventually get over it and go on with my life. I mean, I'm sorry but I have my legs and remorse and being sorry lasts only so long. But I leave behind the person with no legs forever. They are left with the daily struggle to live legless- physically, mentally and emotionally. I move on. They never fully can. Oh sure, they can get prosthetic legs and get better to a certain degree. But everyday, at some point in time during the day, those legs come off again. 

And so it is with the betrayer and the betrayed.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> They have to really really want it right? i guess that's been a big thing for me, knowing how much of it is a game and how much is that they want to be better people, be good husbands and wives... and then there's degrees of it i'd think, as there are degrees of alcoholism or any SERIOUS problem.


Agreed. 

But wanting to and doing so are all too often apart. Not that the effort isn't noble or a worthy goal, but it has to be undertaken with some trepidation and caution.

I will never fault a person for trying to reconcile. They just need to go in with their eyes wide open and understanding the why's...


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If marriage in America truly has a 50% infidelity rate then the marriage license should come with a warning that marriage could be hazardous to your health. I've read the rate is somewhere around 1/4 of marriages experience infidelity in America. If it is truly 50% then why even bother getting married?


Ha! Actually, I wasn't being completely serious. I was really taking one of the more extreme statistics out of context ... roughly 50% of marriages will experience infidelity by one or both of the spouses. It is a statistic I find hard to believe but who knows. If it's not true now, it sure seems like it is heading that way.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I have a hard time thinking it's a full 50%.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! Actually, I wasn't being completely serious. I was really taking one of the more extreme statistics out of context ... roughly 50% of marriages will experience infidelity by one or both of the spouses. It is a statistic I find hard to believe but who knows. If it's not true now, it sure seems like it is heading that way.


Both front runners in the NYC local races Elliot Spitzer and Anthony Weiner are adulterers...now they have NO shame.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But wanting to and doing so are all too often apart. Not that the effort isn't noble or a worthy goal, but it has to be undertaken with some trepidation and caution.
> 
> I will never fault a person for trying to reconcile. They just need to go in with their eyes wide open and understanding the why's...


sure..i don't disagree with that. cheating is a HUGE warning sign that something is up, danger ahead, if nothing else.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> sure..i don't disagree with that. cheating is a HUGE warning sign that something is up, danger ahead, if nothing else.


Please don't let my caustic posts make you think I hate betrayers as people in every respect. A lot of my posts are written short to make a point of the gravity of the situation. And sometimes I write more to make people think rather than being more expansive or full with my thoughts.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Please don't let my caustic posts make you think I hate betrayers as people in every respect. A lot of my posts are written short to make a point of the gravity of the situation. And sometimes I write more to make people think rather than being more expansive or full with my thoughts.


ok i get you. I'm just here literally looking at my h so its hard to know how to interpret things at times and i wanna be like 'but this is my life!'. Sometimes theres such dissonance between his crappy actions last yr and how he is the rest of the time its hard to know what to make of it.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I think the exchange between both of you has been interesting. Not rude at all but passionate. Its an emotional topic for sure. I think we can all agree the most annoying people are unremorseful blame shifting WS...


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think the exchange between both of you has been interesting. Not rude at all but passionate. Its an emotional topic for sure. I think we can all agree the most annoying people are unremorseful blame shifting WS...


i'll get on board with that!


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> ok i get you. I'm just here literally looking at my h so its hard to know how to interpret things at times and i wanna be like 'but this is my life!'. Sometimes theres such dissonance between his crappy actions last yr and how he is the rest of the time its hard to know what to make of it.


Isn't it hard to lose faith and trust in someone you once loved unconditionally?


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Isn't it hard to lose faith and trust in someone you once loved unconditionally?


yes! it kills, it really does. I thought he was SO fantastic and my vision of him is never going to be the same... its truly life altering.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

That's why I started the thread asking cana BS ever fully heal...I'm thinking the answer is no.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That's why I started the thread asking cana BS ever fully heal...I'm thinking the answer is no.


that one got me thinking to this one


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That's why I started the thread asking cana BS ever fully heal...I'm thinking the answer is no.


Agreed.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

redtulips said:


> that one got me thinking to this one


If people are still thinking about and writing about their spouses affair decades later, are they really healed? :scratchhead: From my experience and reading these boards the answer for many people seems to be no..people just learn to manage the pain. I have no definitive answers but that is the way I'm leaning. A WS permantly scars the BS - forever - no matter how remorseful the damage is done.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If people are still thinking about and writing about their spouses affair decades later, are they really healed? :scratchhead: From my experience and reading these boards the answer for many people seems to be no..people just learn to manage the pain. I have no definitive answers but that is the way I'm leaning. A WS permantly scars the BS - forever - no matter how remorseful the damage is done.


i hope you are wrong.. for my own selfish reasons.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

redtulips said:


> i hope you are wrong.. for my own selfish reasons.


Me too. You seem like a good person who deserves happiness.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Me too. You seem like a good person who deserves happiness.


aww thank you . i have many many faults but i can't go through this hell again. I'm taking a huge gamble here that he will toe the line with me because this past yr is no way to live.


----------



## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I don't believe this for a second.
> 
> Betrayers, and the damage they do, are not good people. If they were so good, they would not betray.
> 
> Betraying is the single worse thing (aside maybe from selling your children into sex slavery) one human can do to another within the confines of a relationship and there is nothing good about them.


Can we put this in perspective? Murderers, esp mass murderers, like Hitler are bad people. Rapists and pedophiles are bad people. You don't want to be in the same room with those people. While a cheater is someone I would not want to have dinner with and leave my SO in their care, is something totally different. I get the feeling from some of the posters here that they have a hard time differentiating them. I am sure there are a lot of BS who do not view their WS in the same light. Help me out, EI, Regret.... anyone....


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> One of many examples....
> 
> 12 Warning Signs That It’s Emotional Infidelity – And Not ‘Just Friendship’ | Neuroscience and Relationships


Interesting peer reviewed journal you cite. 

So let's look at the 12 signs.

Sign 1 - having an opposite sex friend is a risk. Ok, I agree. I have a very close opposite sex friend who is not my wife. I go to great lengths to keep it appropriate.

Sign 2 - sharing intimate secrets with that friend is infidelity, a betrayal of trust. Well I share those secrets with my OSF. I have full permission of my wife and her husband to do so. Our conversations are always either in writing or in the presence of one of our spouses. We have a clear rule never to be alone together. All because I agree with sign 1. How am I cheating? And where is the authors evidence?

And so on...some of the article I agree with, and some is tosh, but there is no science, just popular assertions more at home in a gossip magazine than a serious publication.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jay_gatsby said:


> Can we put this in perspective? Murderers, esp mass murderers, like Hitler are bad people. Rapists and pedophiles are bad people. You don't want to be in the same room with those people. While a cheater is someone I would not want to have dinner with and leave my SO in their care, is something totally different. I get the feeling from some of the posters here that they have a hard time differentiating them. I am sure there are a lot of BS who do not view their WS in the same light. Help me out, EI, Regret.... anyone....


Well, OK, I get _that_.

What I mean is that within the scope of a marriage, betraying is akin to murder- marital murder.

I mean, in the Bible, adultery is a capitol offense. Think about it. Why, to God, is adultery lumped in with murder? I think perhaps because the end result is the same. In one, a person is literally killed dead. In the other they are emotionally and mentally killed dead- or wish they were. It's also because the sanctity of marriage is that important that God wants betrayers to understand what they do to their family. It's that serious.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I personally believe everyone is fallible, everyone can cheat.

But circumstances vary. Some people will cheat in extreme circumstances only, others see no problem with cheating all the time if they can get away with it, and of course there are many shades of grey between those extremes.

I understand the circumstances in which my wife cheated. It was a perfect storm of factors that led her there, one that could never arise again. It is possible she might cheat again, but I judge it unlikely.

Conversely, another woman who hasn't cheated is, to me, one who hasn't cheated YET.

And I have had a couple of close calls myself.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Interesting peer reviewed journal you cite.
> 
> So let's look at the 12 signs.
> 
> ...


That is hardly a gossip rag. 

And the pro betrayers rely on things like People magazine to make their points.

So go ahead and make your support for the positives of betraying.

I actually want to see what you have to say in support of it. I really do.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I personally believe everyone is fallible, everyone can cheat.
> 
> But circumstances vary. Some people will cheat in extreme circumstances only, others see no problem with cheating all the time if they can get away with it, and of course there are many shades of grey between those extremes.
> 
> ...


i'll be totally honest with you.. i don't see myself cheating. I seriously doubt i could do it... honest reflection.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I personally believe everyone is fallible, everyone can cheat.
> 
> But circumstances vary. Some people will cheat in extreme circumstances only, others see no problem with cheating all the time if they can get away with it, and of course there are many shades of grey between those extremes.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I agree with your last line at all but I do think your post points out the need for proper boundaries within a marriage.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I personally believe everyone is fallible, everyone can cheat.
> 
> But circumstances vary. Some people will cheat in extreme circumstances only, others see no problem with cheating all the time if they can get away with it, and of course there are many shades of grey between those extremes.
> 
> ...


My current wife was married at age 21. She had twin sons at age 24. Her husband was deeply abusive and the kids tell stories of hiding under tables when he was tearing the house apart. After 6 years of marriage he got testicular cancer and lost both of his testicles. He matter of factly told her, "Well, no more sex for you". And so it was. A sexless, abusive marriage for her from age 27-38. She tried what she could to make it work and cope.

Like to guess how many times she betrayed her husband and family? How many times she contemplated it?

Zero.

Why?

She isn't wired to betray.

She hasn't either the propensity or the addiction.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

redtulips said:


> i'll be totally honest with you.. i don't see myself cheating. I seriously doubt i could do it... honest reflection.


Me neither. 

For all I have been through I honestly never considered it. And I had a lot of open chances but was oblivious because it simply doesn't enter my mind. I look at positives and not betraying as my answer to life's problems.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> That is hardly a gossip rag.
> 
> And the pro betrayers rely on things like People magazine to make their points.
> 
> ...


With respect that is nonsense. If you read my post as supporting betraying you have serious issues of reading comprehension.

Ok..so address my comments on your article. Where is a single shred of quantative research, a single link to supporting data, or even the trivial level of support that an undergraduate would be required to provide, let alone a PhD? (Wonder where the PhD was from)

How does the author make any case that sign 2 is a betrayal of trust. Whose trust was betrayed in my case?

You are citing a blog on the internet as if it were a serious publication. Why don't we phone up Judge Judy and check out the legal ramifications while we are at it?


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Me neither.
> 
> For all I have been through I honestly never considered it. And I had a lot of open chances but was oblivious because it simply doesn't enter my mind. I look at positives and not betraying as my answer to life's problems.


same here. At some pts i thought 'would i want a revenge affair? how would that feel?' and I couldn't even go there mentally. I dunno... never seemed like a real option.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Wazza said:


> With respect that is nonsense. If you read my post as supporting betraying you have serious issues of reading comprehension.
> 
> Ok..so address my comments on your article. Where is a single shred of quantative research, a single link to supporting data, or even the trivial level of support that an undergraduate would be required to provide, let alone a PhD? (Wonder where the PhD was from)
> 
> ...


Uh-huh.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Well, interesting thread. 

See you all tomorrow or the next day. Wifey & I have been vacationing here at the glorious central Oregon coast and we drive home tomorrow.

G'nite.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Well, interesting thread.
> 
> See you all tomorrow or the next day. Wifey & I have been vacationing here at the glorious central Oregon coast and we drive home tomorrow.
> 
> G'nite.


Safe travels BP!!


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

thanks for participating! this has been very interesting for me too.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> My second wife got caught in an EA, discovered it, went to a counselor and asked for help and dropped him immediately. She wasn't very forthcoming with me, but I was already on the scent. I hate to say this, but I had built up a case against her 1,000 times worse than it really was and she was mortified. We have worked it out.





thatbpguy said:


> My current wife was married at age 21. She had twin sons at age 24. Her husband was deeply abusive and the kids tell stories of hiding under tables when he was tearing the house apart. After 6 years of marriage he got testicular cancer and lost both of his testicles. He matter of factly told her, "Well, no more sex for you". And so it was. A sexless, abusive marriage for her from age 27-38. She tried what she could to make it work and cope.
> 
> Like to guess how many times she betrayed her husband and family? How many times she contemplated it?
> 
> ...


I understand your current wife is your second wife. If so these cannot both be true.

Look, I don't want an argument and as one betrayed spouse to another I get this hurts. 

I think you're wrong, but let's agree to differ.

My personal experience is that no amount if tearing my wayward wife down healed me. Working through things did, because I was married to a really decent person..who has some flaws, and who at one stage, for a complex mix of reasons, had an affair.

You don't have to like her. You will never even meet her in all likelihood.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

redtulips said:


> i'll be totally honest with you.. i don't see myself cheating. I seriously doubt i could do it... honest reflection.


Your SO has a stroke and now is in your care. He is reduced to the intellect of a child and is unable to function sexually. Several years go by and you are struggling emotionally as you feel overwhelmed by his needs as well as normal daily pressures. You have a good job and are offered the opportunity to work in France on a 4 month project. Your husband's parents who you have a great relationship with encourage you to go, offering to take care of your husband while you are gone. You take the assignment. While you are there, you are hit on by numerous men who make you feel like a woman again ... something you haven't felt in a long time. One very attractive and fit man is a member of your team and you work closely with him on a daily basis. In the process, you get to know him personally. One late night after a couple of glasses of wine, you find yourself alone with him and he tries to seduce you ... what do you do?

Actually that is similar to a real life story of a person I know with some things exaggerated, lol.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Uh-huh.


Noted, no factual refutation.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Your SO has a stroke and now is in your care. He is reduced to the intellect of a child and is unable to function sexually. Several years go by and you are struggling emotionally as you feel overwhelmed by his needs as well as normal daily pressures. You have a good job and are offered the opportunity to work in France on a 4 month project. Your husband's parents who you have a great relationship with encourage you to go, offering to take care of your husband while you are gone. You take the assignment. While you are there, you are hit on by numerous men who make you feel like a woman again ... something you haven't felt in a long time. One very attractive and fit man is a member of your team and you find yourself working closely with him. One late night after a couple of glasses of wine, you find yourself alone with him and he tries to seduce you ... what do you do?
> 
> Actually that is similar to a real life story of a person I know with some things exaggerated, lol.


lol! i dunno, but i wasn't in a coma. i was gone for like 2 weeks and he knocked some chick up. but ok, if i thought i was going to seriously cheat tbh i'd go ahead and file for divorce. if he wakes up later i'd explain to him this and why. i'd still be there for him though and try to care for him.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

redtulips said:


> lol! i dunno, but i wasn't in a coma. i was gone for like 2 weeks and he knocked some chick up. but ok, if i thought i was going to seriously cheat tbh i'd go ahead and file for divorce. if he wakes up later i'd explain to him this and why. i'd still be there for him though and try to care for him.


I love the hypotheticals...lol its important to orkout all the what ifs...:lol:


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

redtulips said:


> lol! i dunno, but i wasn't in a coma. i was gone for like 2 weeks and he knocked some chick up. but ok, if i thought i was going to seriously cheat tbh i'd go ahead and file for divorce. if he wakes up later i'd explain to him this and why. i'd still be there for him though and try to care for him.


Ha! Right, well I was just trying to create a scenario in which you could imagine yourself potentially "giving in" to that temptation. In this scenario, you did not go to France expecting to cheat or even wanting to cheat. You had not divorced because you felt an obligation to your husband but the years have taken an emotional toll on you. You didn't even realize what a toll it was until you were taken out of that environment. Suddenly feelings are coming back that you haven't felt in long time. It isn't logical, it is completely emotional. Temptation is in front of you and not only will your husband never know but he is incapable at this point of even understanding if he found out.

I know ... far-fetched ... but like I said, this actually is similar to the story of a person I know. Yes, that person gave in to temptation. I don't respect her decision but at the same time I have more sympathy for her than the run-of-the-mill cheater.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! Right, well I was just trying to create a scenario in which you could imagine yourself potentially "giving in" to that temptation. In this scenario, you did not go to France expecting to cheat or even wanting to cheat. You had not divorced because you felt an obligation to your husband but the years have taken an emotional toll on you. You didn't even realize what a toll it was until you were taken out of that environment. Suddenly feelings are coming back that you haven't felt in long time. It isn't logical, it is completely emotional. Temptation is in front of you and not only will your husband never know but he is incapable at this point of even understanding if he found out.
> 
> I know ... far-fetched ... but like I said, this actually is similar to the story of a person I know. Yes, that person gave in to temptation. I don't respect her decision but at the same time I have more sympathy for her than the run-of-the-mill cheater.


i would too for sure.. i think anyone dealing with a long term coma situation would be, should be given some slack here! this is something that could go in my 'circumstances' thread lol.. but its an example of where circumstances do matter in trying to make judgements.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

redtulips said:


> yes, right, but we are all a little selfish sometimes? my question is, is EVERYONE capable of doing this? or does it take a special personality flaw?


No, not everyone is capable of this - despite what cheaters will try to tell you.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

redtulips said:


> this is a little hardcore...


So is screwing someone who isn't your spouse.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Healer said:


> So is screwing someone who isn't your spouse.


I never said it was ok... but things in perspective helps too


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> A selfish one


Or a broken, or damaged one?


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Any kind.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think the better question is what kind of person would never cheat. When that's clarified then decide if your spouse either is or can be that kind of person.


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I think the better question is what kind of person would never cheat. When that's clarified then decide if your spouse either is or can be that kind of person.


after all the discussion here and thought about it i'm actually feeling better about my situation...


----------



## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> I think the better question is what kind of person would never cheat.


Now that is a question worth waiting for replies. Esp if you add "under any circumstance"


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

redtulips said:


> i'll be totally honest with you.. i don't see myself cheating. I seriously doubt i could do it... honest reflection.





Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm not sure I agree with your last line at all but I do think your post points out the need for proper boundaries within a marriage.


Well, I have never cheated, though I have faced significant temptation. So I understand what you are saying. I can hold my head high.

But maybe I just haven't hit the right...or wrong....circumstances.

My belief system has an uncomfortable side.....I cannot assume I will have a faithful marriage. I cannot assume my partner won't cheat. For those whose response to cheating is to divorce the cheat and find someone "better". I am saying that is not possible.

If I listed all the decent things my wife has done you would be stunned she could cheat. And my belief is she has learned from her mistake and won't repeat it. 

At the very least that is very different from some people who are happy to cheat and just seek not to get caught.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I mean, in the Bible, adultery is a capitol offense. Think about it. Why, to God, is adultery lumped in with murder?


If you look at the 10 Commandments with regard to murder, lying, adultery, stealing and coveting, they ALL have to do with "taking" something from someone or keeping something from someone that doesn't "belong" to *you*. Murder is the "taking" of someone else's life. Lying is "keeping" the truth from someone. Adultery is "taking" (and even "keeping"?) another man or woman's spouse. 

Just an observation

Vega


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Think about it more than ever now. I have the advantage of having lived a life and I have been in some "situations" - both sides of the fence. I know the upside and the downside on both sides. Now and with children I just wouldn't do it, there is simply too much at stake - pity someone else I know didn't have that thought pattern. But then again and as my WS informed me just after DDay, it wasn't possible - "No one would have you anyway". Water off a ducks back and patently not true, I just haven't looked.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Think about it more than ever now. I have the advantage of having lived a life and I have been in some "situations" - both sides of the fence. I know the upside and the downside on both sides. Now and with children I just wouldn't do it, there is simply too much at stake - pity someone else I know didn't have that thought pattern. But then again and as my WS informed me just after DDay, it wasn't possible - "No one would have you anyway". Water off a ducks back and patently not true, I just haven't looked.


My case was five years of staying there for the sake of the kids, post Mrs Wazza's affair.

The marriage was crap at that stage, and I formed a close bond with a beautiful lady at work. I developed feelings for her.

I handled it well. Told her, told my wife....behaved myself.

Said lady would not have cheated with me. I wonder what would have happened if her morals were different. If she had set out to seduce me would I have been able to resist?


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Or a broken, or damaged one?


My stbxww always, ALWAYS says this. "I'm broken". What does that mean? Extremely selfish, flawed, cruel and lacking any moral compass or sense of right and wrong? Alrighty then. Guess that's more concise than saying all those things.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> If she had set out to seduce me would I have been able to resist?


If you chose to do so. Cheaters aren't under some magical spell, or under duress, or hypnotized, or weakened by kryptonite. They are conscious, aware, and make a deliberate choice to betray, destroy, hurt and devastate. 

Do you have free will? "Able to resist". Come on. We aren't dogs with a big plate of raw chicken in front of us. We aren't toddlers with a crayon and a clean white wall.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> If you chose to do so. Cheaters aren't under some magical spell, or under duress, or hypnotized, or weakened by kryptonite. They are conscious, aware, and make a deliberate choice to betray, destroy, hurt and devastate.
> 
> Do you have free will? "Able to resist". Come on. We aren't dogs with a big plate of raw chicken in front of us. We aren't toddlers with a crayon and a clean white wall.


You never do things you didn't intend to? You never have moments of weakness? Succumb to pressure or temptation?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> You never do things you didn't intend to? You never have moments of weakness? Succumb to pressure or temptation?


Yes if it happens once I'd go along with you..but that does not explain a LTA


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Yes if it happens once I'd go along with you..but that does not explain a LTA


Well a sexual interlude is one temptation, a long term affair is another.

Rationalising, denial, struggles, excuses.

My wife was in denial that she was in an affair. In retrospect now she will admit how stupid she was but at the time.....

And I did not succumb, so I can hold my head high, but I came close enough that I can understand it. 

You play with fire as you push the boundaries, and then all of a sudden you are in an affair and struggling to extricate yourself. And I am talking about the emotional dynamic as well as the sexual.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Well a sexual interlude is one temptation, a long term affair is another.
> 
> Rationalising, denial, struggles, excuses.
> 
> ...


I think we are under-emphasizing peoples rational abilities to make a choice. A LTA is a repeated choice to cheat - as you know I don't view all affairs as the same.

Wazza you made the CHOICE not to cheat - you are a good and decent man - we are all tempted everyday - we choose what to do with that. All my bad decisions in life are MINE - not the product of some force beyond me. And i've made plenty.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think we are under-emphasizing peoples rational abilities to make a choice. A LTA is a repeated choice to cheat - as you know I don't view all affairs as the same.
> 
> Wazza you made the CHOICE not to cheat - you are a good and decent man - we are all tempted everyday - we choose what to do with that. All my bad decisions in life are MINE - not the product of some force beyond me. And i've made plenty.


Think about how one lie can sometimes trap you into another and it becomes harder to extricate yourself and come clean.

And I agree your bad decisions are yours. My bad decisions are mine. I am not excusing or defending infidelity, I am analysing how it happens. 

Obviously this is personal. I stayed with my wife because we had kids but they are adults now. The only reason to be here is because I choose to, and deciding that my wife is likely to honour her vows is part of that decision.

I would say that my wife is, in general, a better, more decent, more caring, less selfish person than I am.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Think about how one lie can sometimes trap you into another and it becomes harder to extricate yourself and come clean.
> 
> And I agree your bad decisions are yours. My bad decisions are mine. I am not excusing or defending infidelity, I am analysing how it happens.
> 
> ...


The thing is when a WS complains about being in a bad marriage they forget the BS was in that same marriage and did not seek solace in another person's bed. Which is why I respect your decision - you did the RIGHT and NOBLE thing. 

As you know from our exchange of ideas on other boards - I NEVER judged you or your situation - Like I've said it's your journey and I'm glad you are content and happy. :smthumbup:


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

even in a short term situation people still have choices.. this is why most people don't end up murderers even when they are extremely angry. In that case the consequences are so awful they don't...but with an affair they think they will get away with it and it will be ok. see, even in a really tempting situation there is a rational decision made.


----------



## nishi_25 (Jun 30, 2013)

the kind of person who cheats, is someone who never completely loved their spouse at all. ive never been cheated on, but that's what i think is the problem.


----------



## nishi_25 (Jun 30, 2013)

i mean, would u cheat on someone that u fall head over heels for?


----------



## redtulips (Jul 22, 2012)

nishi_25 said:


> i mean, would u cheat on someone that u fall head over heels for?


i think you could genuinely love someone and cheat in a moment... i'm not so sure about a long term thing though...


----------



## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Well, OK, I get _that_.
> 
> What I mean is that within the scope of a marriage, betraying is akin to murder- marital murder.
> 
> I mean, in the Bible, adultery is a capitol offense. Think about it. Why, to God, is adultery lumped in with murder? I think perhaps because the end result is the same. In one, a person is literally killed dead. In the other they are emotionally and mentally killed dead- or wish they were. It's also because the sanctity of marriage is that important that God wants betrayers to understand what they do to their family. It's that serious.


BP, you know that murder is in a different category than adultery. You can never get your life back when you are dead. There are a lot of BS that move forward after divorce. I know the bible says a lot of things, but even if you take the eye for an eye approach, then, take your revenge by finding someone else.


----------



## sang-froid (May 2, 2013)

redtulips said:


> i'll be totally honest with you.. i don't see myself cheating. I seriously doubt i could do it... honest reflection.


I feel the same way. No matter how miserable, frustrated, etc., I was feeling (and I've experienced my fair share of these feelings), I can't imagine a scenario where I would want to cheat. I've always chosen not to put myself in situations where boundaries could become blurry. 
Even if there was a 100% guarantee I wouldn't get caught, I would always know what I had done.


----------



## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

I think someone who cheats is not necessarily an evil person, but a person who has a flawed logic. I have heard so many cheaters say that they love their family and didn't want to destroy it. That they cannot think about leaving their wife or husband because they have been their to support them through everything. So my question becomes, knowing all this, you still can cheat and betray their trust? I think most cheaters think they won't get caught so their family won't ever feel the brunt of their mistakes. Its messed up logic, with a selfish streak as other people have said. And yes, cheaters are good liars, obviously. The ones who can hide it for so long become experts in lying, which if you are their spouse, is a very dangerous personality trait. If I have learned anything about liars, its that they can't help themselves. They always lie...its like a habit.


----------



## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

Dishonest, disloyal and disrespectful person; a user. I believe these character traits aren't probably limited to relationships only but instead affect their behavior and choices in other areas of life too.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> You never do things you didn't intend to? You never have moments of weakness? Succumb to pressure or temptation?


I never said that. But I had a lot of temptation, a lot of opportunity to cheat in my 12 years of marriage. Guess what? Never did.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> I never said that. But I had a lot of temptation, a lot of opportunity to cheat in my 12 years of marriage. Guess what? Never did.


I can say the same. But I can see how a different set of circumstances might have ended differently. Can't prove it either way though.

I think there are different temptations and different vulnerabilities. My wife fell to an overwhelming temptation during a time of great vulnerability. I am not sure that I have ever faced such a perfect storm.

Certainly she also did a superhuman job of penance. If she is just a broken person it's a strange kind of breakage.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I can say the same. But I can see how a different set of circumstances might have ended differently. Can't prove it either way though.
> 
> I think there are different temptations and different vulnerabilities. My wife fell to an overwhelming temptation during a time of great vulnerability. I am not sure that I have ever faced such a perfect storm.
> 
> Certainly she also did a superhuman job of penance. If she is just a broken person it's a strange kind of breakage.


I think some people realize that they need to not get close to another, or put themselves in a position where temptation might become an option. They stop it before it goes too far. Others let it slip past that first crossed boundary, and go with it. Instead of realizing they've been disrespected, they see it as a turn on. I think a WS can do a true R once they realize that they've been used, and have been using someone. That they in fact never had romance or love, just playing and being played. When they realize they've not only been lying to you, but to themselves. That's when it all hits home for them. 

I agree that the state of the marriage can factor in.. how stressed, how is the communication etc.. obviously these factor in, but some folks more than others.

Those of us that avoid it like the plague, already know we'd be hurting ourselves, so we hide from the opportunities. We don't even see when a woman is flirting with us. That's why many of the 'mid life crisis' types of affairs can be attributed to that 'self destructive behavior' portion of that program. Things like family also factor in, what you've learned as a child... The dad who cheated and granddad who cheated make grand-kids that think it's okay to cheat, it's what strong men do. Even if it wrecked a marriage, they sent a message that if you're not happy in your marriage, you can find another person to sleep with. It's okay to give yourself permission to cheat, and sabotage your family. You deserve an escape... etc...


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> I think my wife also gave in to a great temptation at a time that she was very vulnerable.
> 
> I have never completely believed she was fully remorseful. Many times when she was still in the fog she said she was very sorry I knew but not sorry she did it. She has since said she was sorry and remorseful but only after I told her I never felt she was remorseful.


That would be hard to deal with.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Sorry - gotta call rubbish on all the vulnerability, perfect storm stuff. We're adults, we have free will, we are in control of our choices. Cheaters choose to cheat. End of story.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Healer said:


> Sorry - gotta call rubbish on all the vulnerability, perfect storm stuff. We're adults, we have free will, we are in control of our choices. Cheaters choose to cheat. End of story.


End of story huh. Cheaters cheat, liars lie, thieves steel?

Ever shave a point off your golf game or take a mulligan? Ever tell your wife that outfit looks good when it just looks ok or looks bad? Ever take a pen or notepad from work and not worry about returning it?

Point is, if life is only black and white then almost everyone is a liar, cheat, or thief. Infidelity has a HUGE price no matter the circumstance but reality is that life is full of shades of grey even cheating.

My ex cheated many years ago and I divorced her. Would she have cheated again? I think so. Would every person who cheats be a cheater again? Obviously not since we are capable of learning from our mistakes but they certainly are higher risk.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> Sorry - gotta call rubbish on all the vulnerability, perfect storm stuff. We're adults, we have free will, we are in control of our choices. Cheaters choose to cheat. End of story.


Ah if life were only this simple...

Lets say a person loses a family member, then they are told they have cancer.. so they decide they will drink to kill some pain, then the dog dies... so they drink some more. They are lonely. They become a drunk... Do you ignore that they had stress in life, and that they weren't in a good place or do you pretend that it's as simple as 'they're a drunk, drunk will chose to drink' 

Do you think that perhaps that 'perfect storm' of circumstances might have played a role in the poor choices?

(don't answer, it's a rhetorical question)


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> Sorry - gotta call rubbish on all the vulnerability, perfect storm stuff. We're adults, we have free will, we are in control of our choices. Cheaters choose to cheat. End of story.


You are welcome to call rubbish on it.

But to be honest, you are a stranger on the Internet, with no detailed knowledge of the circumstances. You are simply not in a position to have an informed opinion on the topic, at least for my marriage.

I say that with no intent at disrespect, and it doesn't make me right. But you weren't there, you don't know the circumstances.

If you have never made a wrong choice, never contravened your personal moral code in any way, then you are a better person than I am.


----------



## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

There are different people among cheaters and not every cheaper is a bad person. Not cheating doesn’t automatically make a good person or a good spouse… 
I think it’s all about opportunities… As Joey Tribbiani (from Friends) said: You don't want to cheat on them, unless it's with someone really hot… 
Serial cheaters are chasing the opportunities. Non serial cheater just might use an opportunity that comes along…


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Aerith said:


> There are different people among cheaters and not every cheaper is a bad person. Not cheating doesn’t automatically make a good person or a good spouse…
> I think it’s all about opportunities… As Joey Tribbiani (from Friends) said: You don't want to cheat on them, unless it's with someone really hot…
> Serial cheaters are chasing the opportunities. Non serial cheater just might use an opportunity that comes along…


But it's not all about opportunities. I had many, MANY over the years and didn't take them. Everyone has opportunities to do bad things every day. You make the choice to do them or not to do them. Just because an opportunity is there doesn't mean you have to take it.


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

redtulips said:


> i think y*ou could genuinely love someone and cheat in a moment*... i'm not so sure about a long term thing though...



I dont believe that's genuine love you're speaking of.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

The-Deceived said:


> But it's not all about opportunities. I had many, MANY over the years and didn't take them. Everyone has opportunities to do bad things every day. You make the choice to do them or not to do them. Just because an opportunity is there doesn't mean you have to take it.


When I was younger, I stole stuff... I vandalized stuff. I went along with my friends, made tons of bad choices. I had opportunities, I took them, and I regret them. I haven't stolen anything since then, not even a pen from work (they give those to us). I don't vandalize.

Some people are capable of learning and changing from mistakes. Not everyone can be perfect from birth to death, that can be a long time.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

russell28 said:


> When I was younger, I stole stuff... I vandalized stuff. I went along with my friends, made tons of bad choices. I had opportunities, I took them, and I regret them. I haven't stolen anything since then, not even a pen from work (they give those to us). I don't vandalize.
> 
> Some people are capable of learning and changing from mistakes. Not everyone can be perfect from birth to death, that can be a long time.


Certainly - and I never claimed to be perfect, and never expected perfection from my stbx. Pretty much the ONLY thing I expected from her was to be faithful...if I could do it why couldn't she?

But it doesn't matter - she did, and I didn't. I don't understand cheaters and never will. Clearly a lot of folks on here are a lot more empathetic than me in regards to this. Whatever works for you - more power to you.  I just wish everyone the best and hope you all find peace and happiness - whatever route you choose.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> *When I was younger*, I stole stuff... I vandalized stuff. I went along with my friends, made tons of bad choices. I had opportunities, I took them, and I regret them. I haven't stolen anything since then, not even a pen from work (they give those to us). I don't vandalize.
> 
> Some people are capable of learning and changing from mistakes. Not everyone can be perfect from birth to death, that can be a long time.


You grew up - you were young. 

Look some people who cheat are remorseful and some are not. I still think, even with the ones who are remorseful, there are character flaws that need to be dealt with. Like any other moral failing - it needs to be called what it is a moral failing. If we grow, change and improve that is great - but the damage done in many cases is permanent. I believe in redemption and forgiveness but the one thing that can not be undone is the damage - if the WS realizes this and works to alleviate the BS's suffering then that is a good sign. The WS we sometimes see posting on here are doing a lot of heavy lifting and I believe they can redeem themselves - but I'm sure even they would say the damage is vast and probably irreversible.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> I think a person who cheats has some strong character flaws. We are all human and all make mistakes, however, cheating goes beyond a normal mistake. If you have strong moral principles you will not follow through. You will be tempted but not do the deed. In a recent trigger and depression, my wife reminded me that she swore this would never happen again and that she has been a good faithful wife for xx years. I said yes you did but I thought when you took a marriage vow you also swore to be true. Cheating is a choice, we are not perfect, however it really is not asking too much of your spouse to remain loyal.


John - it sounds like you two need counseling - she does not seem remorseful at all. How do you cope with her lack of remorse?


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

It is funny to see some of the analogies here. My belief that the concept of marriage is poorly understood by many people is proved to be right over and over again.

The 'ideal circumstances' defense of cheating can provide mental satisfaction to people going through R. But think of it, why do we get married in the first place? We get married so that we can share our lives together, trust our partners completely, and don't have to fear every moment that our partners might leave us when the next best option arrives. So the only requirement in a marriage is trust, and through cheating the other partner broke the fundamental premise of marriage. If cheating occurs, the marriage should end. The BS may or may not agree to R, but that has to happen in future, when the consequences of cheating have run their course.

Comparing cheating to other crimes should further strengthen this point. If I commit a crime and get caught, I will get punished. No 'perfect storm' argument is going to save me from the consequences. If cheating gets caught in a marriage, divorce has to take place. A BS does no justice to himself/herself and the people who actually love the BS by validating a WS's behavior by the 'ideal circumstances' argument. 

In human lives we face the 'perfect storm' several times. Are you going to be completely secure when the next 'perfect storm' arrives? If this happens again, then what? Another R? That means all your current effort went down the drain.

All cheating WS has a fundamental problem: they cannot control the urge to cheat. If they couldn't do it before, what guarantees that they will not do it again? What if a better version of the last AP comes in? 

Honesty, trustworthiness, fidelity are some of the cultivated traits. Humans have to practice it for a long time and pass them through generations. A WS didn't grow up with those traits, and didn't bother to learn them on their own. How do you know that they will learn it now when they have already tasted the forbidden fruit and they liked it?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Perhaps counseling would help. Yes, I have never felt she was remorseful. She tells me the only time she ever thinks about the affair is when I make her. My wife who forgets nothing seems to not remember a lot about the affair. I asked her about it and she said; did I ever think that maybe she blocks it from her mind. Hard for me to imagine, but possible I guess.
> 
> I do not want to sound like we have a terrible marriage. For the most part we have a very good, loving marriage. Most people think we are the ideal couple. For the most part I function just fine. I do have a lot of triggers and go through depression.


John - with all due respect you are still triggering and suffering from depression DECADES later. Don't you want to deal with this once and for all? With all due respect to your wife she does remember - and her lack of remorse could be an indicator that those are good memories for her. You need to stand up for yourself once and for all - and talk to your kids about it as well. Rug-sweeping is devastating. You really should start your own thread here on TAM and get the advice of a lot of people wiser than I am. It really is time for you to act.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You grew up - you were young.
> 
> Look some people who cheat are remorseful and some are not. I still think, even with the ones who are remorseful, there are character flaws that need to be dealt with. Like any other moral failing - it needs to be called what it is a moral failing. If we grow, change and improve that is great - but the damage done in many cases is permanent. I believe in redemption and forgiveness but the one thing that can not be undone is the damage - if the WS realizes this and works to alleviate the BS's suffering then that is a good sign. The WS we sometimes see posting on here are doing a lot of heavy lifting and I believe they can redeem themselves - but I'm sure even they would say the damage is vast and probably irreversible.



I agree with this, and could list the moral failings in my wife that contributed to the affair, along with the other factors.

One implication of the affair is I will never totally trust again. I will always know or believe that my spouse could possibly let me down. Is that damage or a recognition of an unpleasant truth?

Understanding what happened last time and knowing it could happen again puts me in a better position to work and ensure it doesn't. Though of course my wife has the primary responsibility there.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Aerith said:


> There are different people among cheaters and not every cheaper is a bad person. Not cheating doesn’t automatically make a good person or a good spouse…
> I think it’s all about opportunities… As Joey Tribbiani (from Friends) said: You don't want to cheat on them, unless it's with someone really hot…
> Serial cheaters are chasing the opportunities. Non serial cheater just might use an opportunity that comes along…


Or genuinely try to resist and fail. Which is what I believe happened with my wife.....though it has taken many years to conclude that.....


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Perhaps counseling would help. Yes, I have never felt she was remorseful. She tells me the only time she ever thinks about the affair is when I make her. My wife who forgets nothing seems to not remember a lot about the affair. I asked her about it and she said; did I ever think that maybe she blocks it from her mind. Hard for me to imagine, but possible I guess.
> 
> I do not want to sound like we have a terrible marriage. For the most part we have a very good, loving marriage. Most people think we are the ideal couple. For the most part I function just fine. I do have a lot of triggers and go through depression.


I trigger sometimes too. Sad, but that is how it is. And it is a lot better now than it was.

And my wife blocks some things. That is not just related to the affair, but most of the examples I know are affair related, and all of them are linked in with stuff she is ashamed of.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

life101 said:


> It is funny to see some of the analogies here. My belief that the concept of marriage is poorly understood by many people is proved to be right over and over again.
> 
> The 'ideal circumstances' defense of cheating can provide mental satisfaction to people going through R. But think of it, why do we get married in the first place? We get married so that we can share our lives together, trust our partners completely, and don't have to fear every moment that our partners might leave us when the next best option arrives. So the only requirement in a marriage is trust, and through cheating the other partner broke the fundamental premise of marriage. If cheating occurs, the marriage should end. The BS may or may not agree to R, but that has to happen in future, when the consequences of cheating have run their course.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail in the head. This is why this is such an important discussion. 

I will never trust completely again, because I believe everyone can fail. I picked a women who I thought was outstandingly trustworthy. Still think she is way above average. And she failed. 

If I thought it was as simple as finding someone totally trustworthy, someone who didn't have the cheater gene or whatever, I would leave my wife and go looking, I would not reconcile.

Because I believe everyone can fail, it instead becomes a question of risk management. How likely is a future failure? and under what circumstances? 

And that applies to me too. There are situations my wife put herself in that neither of us will put ourselves in in the future.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I trigger sometimes too. Sad, but that is how it is. And it is a lot better now than it was.
> 
> And my wife blocks some things. That is not just related to the affair, but most of the examples I know are affair related, and all of them are linked in with stuff she is ashamed of.


Wazza - your wife showed remorse unfortunately John's has not and referred to it as a "glitch". And described the other man as the "best looking most exciting man" she ever knew.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You grew up - you were young.
> 
> Look some people who cheat are remorseful and some are not. I still think, even with the ones who are remorseful, there are character flaws that need to be dealt with. Like any other moral failing - it needs to be called what it is a moral failing. If we grow, change and improve that is great - but the damage done in many cases is permanent. I believe in redemption and forgiveness but the one thing that can not be undone is the damage - if the WS realizes this and works to alleviate the BS's suffering then that is a good sign. The WS we sometimes see posting on here are doing a lot of heavy lifting and I believe they can redeem themselves - but I'm sure even they would say the damage is vast and probably irreversible.


I was young... I also came from a home with two parents that stayed married, and showed me what a good marriage is, and how it works. My WS (who is now doing anything and everything she can to alleviate my suffering) came from a home where her mother cheated then married the OM, and cheated on him. Her aunt that she was very close to cheated, her grandmother cheated her whole life, and called her OM the 'love of her life'.. and they all gas-lit to the point where every affair was "justified". Her aunt was also cheated on by her uncle (then went out and cheated with a married man), and her uncle on her fathers side had a wife that cheated and left him for her boss. Are these excuses, or reasons? No, but they are facts that can't be overlooked. 

People learn what they see as children, and they develop beliefs on what is acceptable behavior by adults. Those aren't things that take place in your conscious mind, they are sub-conscious level things that can guide you to bad choices. They help the justifications and excuse making that fuels an affair. Parents and role models are a big influence on 'character'.

So NOW my WS understands that the damage she's done is vast and irreversible.. just because she's not young, doesn't mean she's not capable of feeling pain and learning how damaging her poor behavior was to her and our family. 

Obviously these things are case-by-case. Most of the stuff I read on this forum I would tell the BS to run like hell... If I felt any sign that my WS was feigning remorse, or had no love for me, I would be out. 

I learned one thing from DDay.. I should listen to my gut over my brain, my brain can convince me to not see things that should be obvious.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I was young... I also came from a home with two parents that stayed married, and showed me what a good marriage is, and how it works. My WS (who is now doing anything and everything she can to alleviate my suffering) came from a home where her mother cheated then married the OM, and cheated on him. Her aunt that she was very close to cheated, her grandmother cheated her whole life, and called her OM the 'love of her life'.. and they all gas-lit to the point where every affair was "justified". Her aunt was also cheated on by her uncle (then went out and cheated with a married man), and her uncle on her fathers side had a wife that cheated and left him for her boss. Are these excuses, or reasons? No, but they are facts that can't be overlooked.
> 
> People learn what they see as children, and they develop beliefs on what is acceptable behavior by adults. Those aren't things that take place in your conscious mind, they are sub-conscious level things that can guide you to bad choices. They help the justifications and excuse making that fuels an affair. Parents and role models are a big influence on 'character'.
> 
> ...


Has she distanced herself from her family?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

life101 said:


> It is funny to see some of the analogies here. My belief that the concept of marriage is poorly understood by many people is proved to be right over and over again.
> 
> The 'ideal circumstances' defense of cheating can provide mental satisfaction to people going through R. But think of it, why do we get married in the first place? We get married so that we can share our lives together, trust our partners completely, and don't have to fear every moment that our partners might leave us when the next best option arrives. So the only requirement in a marriage is trust, and through cheating the other partner broke the fundamental premise of marriage. If cheating occurs, the marriage should end. The BS may or may not agree to R, but that has to happen in future, when the consequences of cheating have run their course.
> 
> ...


There are no guarantees in life, that's another thing I've learned from this experience. What will help them to NOT want to do it again... is a good question. 

Nobody is using the perfect storm as an excuse or to avoid consequences. The consequences, in my case, would be the loss of respect.. the lost of trust and love of your spouse, the person you've been with since you were a child and you killed that innocence. The loss of freedom since you now feel you are not trusted. The pain of feeling used, once you realize that the AP was using you just as much as you were using them. 

People bring up the BS having to look the person that caused them all the pain every day.. in the case of a remorseful WS, that can be difficult as well.. To have a person trigger, break down, become angry, and think you've caused all this, to someone who cherished you. You took someone that gave you undying love, and broke them. Now you have to face it every day.

A truly remorseful spouse understands how much damage they've done to themselves, to THEIR love story. That is incentive to avoid future temptations, and to avoid putting themselves in that position ever again. Are there any guarantees? Never... but once you've been through it, you know how to survive it and how to avoid it. They know that too, two strikes you're out...


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

so 33 to 50% of everyone has a major character flaw or mental illness?


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

johnAdams said:


> Perhaps counseling would help. Yes, I have never felt she was remorseful. She tells me the only time she ever thinks about the affair is when I make her. My wife who forgets nothing seems to not remember a lot about the affair. I asked her about it and she said; did I ever think that maybe she blocks it from her mind. Hard for me to imagine, but possible I guess.
> 
> I do not want to sound like we have a terrible marriage. For the most part we have a very good, loving marriage. Most people think we are the ideal couple. For the most part I function just fine. I do have a lot of triggers and go through depression.


Good as long as you do what she wants to avoid argumnts?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Has she distanced herself from her family?


She has.. she has one sister that I trust, and she hasn't seen her either. She's avoiding her mother and toxic sister. She also dropped all her old negative friends, quit her job and spends more time with my daughters. She's gone with her mother when she's with my daughter a couple times, to get her out of the house. They avoid talking about any relationship stuff... although I'm surprised because her mother probably convinced herself that she's a marriage expert. 

Her father has been supportive of us both, he's a great guy and didn't deserve the sh!t sandwich her mother served him up. I feel bad for him when we have to have family functions and he has to spend time with OM.. OM always tries to be nice to him, you can see him begging for approval to ease his guilt.. It's pretty pathetic. Guy is a mega-dork which probably helps a bit, getting to see the loser she's stuck with. Traded way down.

My mother is happy we are in R, because she loves my wife to death.. My old man trusts me to figure out the right thing to do. My sisters have been very supportive, have never said a bad word about my wife, and are both happy we are in R.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I came from Southern stock that instilled a lot of empathy into us. We were simply raised to respect other peoples feelings and to inject a degree of treating others as we wished to be treated ourselves.

Given that, when I pledged in my nuptuals to love, honor, and cherish; being ever faithful, I meant it! And I firmly believed that my STBXW meant it just as much as I did.

She was rather affluent Southern/Texan, most loving, seemingly religious, empathetic, and ethical. It absolutely floored me when I got around to reading some of her covert pre-separation FB posts to her old boyfriends about such given subject matters as "accidental penises" as well as her occasional need to "cut loose." All this while remaining pristine in both my and her family's eyes!

I'm largely guessing that this is what ultimately came to define her!
But if you really want the true answer, then maybe you had just better try asking her! But then again, there may be some serious credibility issues with any answer that she might choose to reply with, since she has aptly painted herself as both a cheater and a liar!


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> She has.. she has one sister that I trust, and she hasn't seen her either. She's avoiding her mother and toxic sister. She also dropped all her old negative friends, quit her job and spends more time with my daughters. She's gone with her mother when she's with my daughter a couple times, to get her out of the house. They avoid talking about any relationship stuff... although I'm surprised because her mother probably convinced herself that she's a marriage expert.
> 
> Her father has been supportive of us both, he's a great guy and didn't deserve the sh!t sandwich her mother served him up. I feel bad for him when we have to have family functions and he has to spend time with OM.. OM always tries to be nice to him, you can see him begging for approval to ease his guilt.. It's pretty pathetic. Guy is a mega-dork which probably helps a bit, getting to see the loser she's stuck with. Traded way down.
> 
> My mother is happy we are in R, because she loves my wife to death.. My old man trusts me to figure out the right thing to do. My sisters have been very supportive, have never said a bad word about my wife, and are both happy we are in R.


Did your wifes father ever remarry?


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> so 33 to 50% of everyone has a major character flaw or mental illness?


My wife's flaw was (is) a fear of confrontation. She will avoid awkward situations and tell white lies to smooth things over. Hands up anyone who has never done that?

When the perfect storm arose, she could not say "I am struggling". Instead, due to a number of other pressures, she cracked and fell.

What should she have done? To cut off contact with OM would have meant dropping out of a course...that would have required her to explain why, as that course was a big deal for our financial future. How many people find it easy to go to their spouse and say "I am attracted to someone else".

I don't know who has seen the movie "Falling Down". The central character goes in small steps from a normal person dealing with normal stuff (traffic jams, divorce woes) to become a mass murderer. The scary thing about that film is that you can empathise with the steps, you can see his perspective. Worth a look for anyone who is contemplating the nature of human frailty. I can see how my wife likewise fell in small steps....and how I could if not careful.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Did your wifes father ever remarry?


He did, he's miserable though but still better off with this one..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> He did, he's miserable though but still better off with this one..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So he now has a normal marriage :rofl:


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Wazza said:


> My wife's flaw was (is) a fear of confrontation. She will avoid awkward situations and tell white lies to smooth things over. Hands up anyone who has never done that?
> 
> When the perfect storm arose, she could not say "I am struggling". Instead, due to a number of other pressures, she cracked and fell.
> 
> ...


You sure minimize your wife's culpability/responsibility and play it off like it was inevitable and she just sort of accidentally fell into it. I understand you are trying to empathize with her and give her the benefit of the doubt - but it comes across as rug sweeping to me. You don't seem to view her as a culpable adult. 

But then I don't buy into the "it could happen to anyone" school of thought.

Just my opinion.

ETA

Michael Douglas was awesome in that role.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> *A truly remorseful spouse understands how much damage they've done to themselves, to THEIR love story. That is incentive to avoid future temptations, and to avoid putting themselves in that position ever again. Are there any guarantees? Never... but once you've been through it, you know how to survive it and how to avoid it. They know that too, two strikes you're out...*




*How very true!*


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> You sure minimize your wife's culpability/responsibility and play it off like it was inevitable and she just sort of accidentally fell into it. I understand you are trying to empathize with her and give her the benefit of the doubt - but it comes across as rug sweeping to me. You don't seem to view her as a culpable adult.
> 
> But then I don't buy into the "it could happen to anyone" school of thought.
> 
> ...


No, no....she is culpable, she did the wrong thing. It was not acceptable and it wasn't accepted. 

Benefit of the doubt......I would say rather that I am striving for a realistic assessment of her remorse and the risk of a future recurrence.

The reason I am focussing on the extenuating circumstances in this thread is to argue that it's not as simple as "some people are cheats and others aren't". But that doesn't mean she did no wrong......hell no!!!!!

On of my best friends from my school days married an utter slvt. She left him for another man, worked as a prostitute to support OM, left OM....my friend took her back...after a few years and two kids she decided she wanted a single lifestyle and started going out clubbing.....they ended up divorced.

Both she and my wife were unfaithful, but the circumstances, and the morality of the two women, are not the same. Friends wife was a repeat offender, much worse in magnitude, and without any of the pressures that were factors in my wife doing the wrong thing.

If you believe that some people are not cheats then the challenge is to find such a person.

If you believe everyone is fallible, it becomes a question of finding a person who is an acceptable risk (for example, my wife is a better risk than my friend's wife), and then working at the relationship to avoid problems. Or you decide the risk isn't worth it, you live alone.


----------

