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post #77 of (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 07:15 PM
Rocky Mountain Yeti
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
OK, fair criticism.

My position is based on people like @Diana7 saying "abortion is killing babies" when it's clearly not that. There is no "post-birth abortions" and I'm not talking about late-term abortions, and I don't think anybody else is, either.

What I think "pro choice" means is that it's the woman's right to choose. That's it, it's her choice. Not that I agree with that choice, or that I disagree with it. It's her freedom to choose.

I think some - maybe nobody here although I doubt it - take "pro choice" to mean "abortions are good and we need more of them." When I don't think that's what it means at all, and is only intended on polarizing the debate. Just like gruesome signs we see on billboards, or @Diana7 saying horrible things about being happy about killing babies to a guy that did no such thing.

I also think that to many "pro life" is a lie in that it's anti-pro choice. If that's where you stand, then say that you don't think women get to choose. And that's kinda what happens when we throw up artificial barriers to abortion, defund access to safe abortions, or put up those stupid billboards - it becomes detrimental to a woman's right to choose.

There's also this little tidbit that I first learned from Freakonomics, detailed in the following paper:

Essentially, it posits that a substantial portion for the decrease in violent crime in the '90s is Roe vs Wade and legalized abortion - essentially, that there's less unwanted children that are now teens/adults committing crime.

Interestingly, there's an interesting effect noted where nations that legalize abortion... actually have less abortions: So if you want to have less abortions, the rational thing to do seems to be to keep them legalized and easily accessible.

Additionally, taking away the freedom of choice not only increases the number of abortions, it makes them far less safe to have done, resulting in long term damage or death to the women seeking them.

On top of that, women having access to contraceptives and abortion has been key to gender equality and allowing women to control their own destiny and sexual fulfillment.

I also very much scratch my head at the renewed debate around legalized abortion in the US, and wonder if in the broader context it's more about conservatism's need to return to 50's style mentality - including women's right to personhood and control over their own bodies.

So that's where I'm at. I think "pro-life" needs to decide if it's actually pro-life - which means they should support legalized abortions - or it it's anti-choice, which is something totally different and icky.

Where I think the transition is between "a cluster of cells" and a "person" is when it's reasonable to think sentience/consciousness/awareness has occurred. That's where it is for me personally.
Some good, rational thoughts in there but I would caution against equating correlation with causality.

And just when does sentience begin?
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