Considering Separation - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
Considering Divorce or Separation If you're considering divorce or separation, this is the place to talk.

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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2019, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Considering Separation

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Why is she asking you to do things? Are you not doing your part of household/child duties? Because what I am reading here is she is trying to get you to help and you are saying no and sitting around instead. If that is true, then you need to do your part WITHOUT her prompting you... I mean you arent a child, you know good and well what needs to be done, so just do it and I bet a lot of this nagging goes away.



You call this being needy, I see it as you are not meeting her needs for affection. Why are you ignoring these needs? Just kiss her when you get home, why is this hard or looked at like some kind of chore? And I cant believe you are complaining that your wife actually WANTS sex. Again, her needs are not being met.



Maybe receiving gifts is not her love language. Are these generous things to do? Of course they are, and should be appreciated. However, I would bet that she would much rather you pull your weight and show her physical affection than give her a pair of earrings or take her out to eat.



No it isnt wrong to have thoughts, but it seems you are getting too caught up in these thoughts and allowing them to interfere in your marriage. I would bet that there is someone specific you have in mind, maybe someone you have been talking to a little too much lately? You are checked out and I have a feeling your issues with your wife are her reacting to that.
I do a TON around the house and with helping the kids. I am not lazy and I do my part. Why she feels like she needs to spit out 3 or 4 tasks to me at once I donít know but it is f*****g annoying and it is driving me away.

I think this annoyance is decreasing my desire to be affectionate with her. I am not complaining that she wants sex. I am complaining about her behavior if she doesnít get enough of it and we do it at least 2-3 times a week. Sometimes I am simply not in the mood. Other times I am in pain (I had a testicular cyst removed and have had multiple scrotal surgeries that often hurt during sex and after). If I am honest with her and tell her if I am not in the mood or in pain, she yells at me and pouts the rest of the night. Would that response make you desire to have sex?

There is no one specific in mind and I am not proactively searching for someone either.

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2019, 04:59 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

Jatkins, l know what you feel and l didn't say your perfect. Some us men have walked in your shoes. And what l was doing was a verbal 2x4. To shake you alittle. That said it was a friend who did the same thing to me. And that pause allowed me to regain control of my emotions. I am still with my wife and I am glad you are here and hope you find what you are seeking. But if is just wanting validation, their may come those who believe as you and back up want. But if you don't hear all sides how can you make an informed decision.

And we who hang here have gotten our thick skin the hard way. Because the destruction of your marriage is something you need to consider wisely.

So just put on your big boy boots and walk through the mire of suggestion, and hope you make the right decision. That will forever change your life and those you leave behind.

If your not the object of your lovers heart, then your just an object.
If you think the grass is greener on the otherside it's not, what you see are the weeds.
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2019, 06:31 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

Why are you afraid of your wife?

Why are you afraid of counseling?

Why are you afraid?

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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2019, 06:44 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

I am wondering what the reasons are she is mad at you as often as you state. Not the reasons you may think but the reasons in her heart.

When fights are picked it is because the people picking them pick them with intent... often from harbored resentment or anger, and often such unhappiness from within themselves while learning how to treat you during the moments that their world doesn't align.

Counseling is a chance to bring things forward on neutral ground... so what if she turns everything on you?

If they have a resemblance of truth then own it.. denial cannot hide in the light.

If they are not true, then do not feel obligated to defend yourself, they are not true... say "I came to this decision from X" and move on.

When we lash out, such tend to grow from a place far too familiar... often a fed hypocrisy with fear.

How is her happiness outside the marriage? You said she is a teacher... primary or secondary?

How did she spend her summer?

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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2019, 07:29 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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I do a TON around the house and with helping the kids. I am not lazy and I do my part. Why she feels like she needs to spit out 3 or 4 tasks to me at once I donít know but it is f*****g annoying and it is driving me away.

I think this annoyance is decreasing my desire to be affectionate with her. I am not complaining that she wants sex. I am complaining about her behavior if she doesnít get enough of it and we do it at least 2-3 times a week. Sometimes I am simply not in the mood. Other times I am in pain (I had a testicular cyst removed and have had multiple scrotal surgeries that often hurt during sex and after). If I am honest with her and tell her if I am not in the mood or in pain, she yells at me and pouts the rest of the night. Would that response make you desire to have sex?
...rejection is a strong fear.

You do realize this comes from her being afraid, don't you?

Fear is fear, matters not if it is accurate or made up, the apprehension and anxiety if not addressed will break our feelings for another nonetheless.

In transparency, only trust allows our fears to be shared with another, think about rebuilding your portion of leadership in your relationship... how would you see yourself not reacting but responding?

Reacting is an action from being afraid... and Far's three questions narrow that down.



Oh... in addition to thinking about that, get yourself a little memo pad and write down every task she asks for... you are not doing this for her, you are doing it for you.

Sort them all, the done and undone and then review them... is there a pattern you can identify?

Is there any ownership or are there any healthy boundaries that can come from such patterns if present?

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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-20-2019, 09:10 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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Counseling is a chance to bring things forward on neutral ground... so what if she turns everything on you?

If they have a resemblance of truth then own it.. denial cannot hide in the light.

If they are not true, then do not feel obligated to defend yourself, they are not true... say "I came to this decision from X" and move on.
Exactly. I don't see how marriage counseling can possibly be worse than the situation he's presently in. In fact, when I chose a marriage counselor for my wife and I, I looked for one that might be as sympathetic to my wife as possible, and prayed that my wife would connect with her and that the MC would be able to see past her attempts to twist & distort some things.

I don't think MC will be a fun experience for this particular couple, but if both are willing to invest time... a lot of time... if each are willing to understand the process might take many, many months... then I think it's got a good chance of working out. If anyone's looking for a quick fix, that isn't going to happen. If anyone's looking for a steady path of improvement, that isn't going to happen. But if both are willing to accept there is a real problem, and they're willing to invest a lot of time addressing it, you have to try. If nothing else, making that investment in time is an indication each believes there's something worth saving.

I should point out that you also have to take the long view about the truth coming out.

Says the guy who's what, three months or so into counseling so far?

Oh, the actual topic was "Considering separation." I think that's a really dangerous path to head down. Came within an hour or so of deciding it was time my wife and I didn't sleep in the same bed & house anymore. Had that happened, I don't know if we'd still be together. It was actually my wife that suggested not coming home that night, because she was causing me so much distress. I told her that wasn't the way to fix this; that if it came to that, we might not recover. That night we decided to go for marriage counseling before doing anything rash.
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 10:18 AM
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Re: Considering Separation

I believe it was counseling in my last marriage that finally allowed my ex to scratch the surface of her honesty and admit that moving the quality of that marriage was not really something she was interested in which explained why our struggles had been so hard for the last 20 years in the marriage.

Patience is required in truth... too much thought about future will only become frustrating.

For me, the present was an invaluable tool because it is so much easier to respond to the now rather than worry about a future anticipation outside of my control where "me" was about the extent of any control anyways.

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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 11:57 AM
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Re: Considering Separation

Have you talked to your wife about what the issues are? I'm talking about an actual conversation and not passive-aggressive hints or other indirect communication? I think she deserves to know these things are very serious, and possibly deal-breakers.

I am currently separated from my husband. He thought I knew certain things were driving him away, but when he told me he wanted a divorce, I was blindsided. I knew something was bothering him, but I didn't think it had anything to do with our marriage. I guess the main takeaway is that my husband thought he was communicating the issues with me, but it was so indirect that I did not get the message.

I will say that separation has improved our communication, but I don't really recommend it.
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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 04:55 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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If I could control thinking about other opportunities I probably wouldn’t have posted here. Am I perfect? No. And I there are times when I am difficult to live with. But I feel like she’s taking advantage of me and she doesn’t realize it.
(a) it's convenient for her not to realize it, because you keep giving her shiny things no matter what she does.

(b) even if she did realize it, she wouldn't have to actually do anything about it because you accept what she does no matter what.

(c) she has no motivation to change.

(d) the only one here with a problem is you. She's doing just fine the way things are.


So she has zero motivation to change, zero consequences if she doesn't, and every motivation to keep things the way they are. So why would she?

She yells at you? You leave.

She criticizes you? You laugh.

She orders you around? Do what I did and pull out a chair for her and say "here's your throne, your highness... sit on it with all of your servants to order around." And then leave.

She tries to make you feel sorry for her not getting shiny things or because her life is harder now that you have a backbone? "You can throw yourself all the pity parties you want, but that doesn't mean I have to come." And then you walk away and go do something fun.

She gives you the silent treatment? You realize that she can't yell or criticize and be silent at the same time, so that means you get to do whatever you want scott free.

The hugs and kisses stop immediately until she treats you better.

The gifts stop immediately until she treats you better.

The lunches stop immediately until she treats you better.

The sex because she demands it stops immediately until she treats you better. And let me guess - you're probably doing all the work there, too right? That stops, too.

Every time she flips out on you, you reiterate: "I deserve better than what I'm getting from you. I am not happy with this relationship."
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 05:10 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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(a) it's convenient for her not to realize it, because you keep giving her shiny things no matter what she does.

(b) even if she did realize it, she wouldn't have to actually do anything about it because you accept what she does no matter what.

(c) she has no motivation to change.

(d) the only one here with a problem is you. She's doing just fine the way things are.


So she has zero motivation to change, zero consequences if she doesn't, and every motivation to keep things the way they are. So why would she?

She yells at you? You leave.

She criticizes you? You laugh.

She orders you around? Do what I did and pull out a chair for her and say "here's your throne, your highness... sit on it with all of your servants to order around." And then leave.

She tries to make you feel sorry for her not getting shiny things or because her life is harder now that you have a backbone? "You can throw yourself all the pity parties you want, but that doesn't mean I have to come." And then you walk away and go do something fun.

She gives you the silent treatment? You realize that she can't yell or criticize and be silent at the same time, so that means you get to do whatever you want scott free.

The hugs and kisses stop immediately until she treats you better.

The gifts stop immediately until she treats you better.

The lunches stop immediately until she treats you better.

The sex because she demands it stops immediately until she treats you better. And let me guess - you're probably doing all the work there, too right? That stops, too.

Every time she flips out on you, you reiterate: "I deserve better than what I'm getting from you. I am not happy with this relationship."
The OP could have been my ex husband and me.

I really, really wish he'd done the things you recommended. They would have helped me emotionally detach enough that I may have been at the same place emotionally when the divorce talk hit.

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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 05:12 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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She was fun, beautiful, easy-going and really understood me. Now the only thing left of those is that she is beautiful.
Are you still the same as when she first fell in love with you?
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 05:27 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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The OP could have been my ex husband and me.

I really, really wish he'd done the things you recommended. They would have helped me emotionally detach enough that I may have been at the same place emotionally when the divorce talk hit.
What I'm really after here is to change the power dynamic - meaning she gets to do whatever she wants, act abusively, etc... and he just does nice things to her as a response.

She can decide to either reciprocate and get rewarded, equivocate and not get rewarded, or prepare to leave herself. She can't actually be happy being like this, but she clearly has no internal motivation to change either for her benefit or his.

Operant conditioning can trap everyone, even if they're aware of it.
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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 05:39 PM
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The OP could have been my ex husband and me.

I really, really wish he'd done the things you recommended. They would have helped me emotionally detach enough that I may have been at the same place emotionally when the divorce talk hit.
What I'm really after here is to change the power dynamic - meaning she gets to do whatever she wants, act abusively, etc... and he just does nice things to her as a response.

She can decide to either reciprocate and get rewarded, equivocate and not get rewarded, or prepare to leave herself. She can't actually be happy being like this, but she clearly has no internal motivation to change either for her benefit or his.

Operant conditioning can trap everyone, even if they're aware of it.
I prefer to get more information about the OP's personal behaviors affecting the dynamics in the relationship rather than assuming he's doing everything right and she's the evil one who needs to be trained to respond. She may just be reacting to his behaviors, that have nothing to do with power dynamic. He did admit that he's no angel. I'm more curious what that means.
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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 05:45 PM
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Re: Considering Separation

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I prefer to get more information about the OP's personal behaviors affecting the dynamics in the relationship rather than assuming he's doing everything right and she's the evil one who needs to be trained to respond. She may just be reacting to his behaviors, that have nothing to do with power dynamic. He did admit that he's no angel. I'm more curious what that means.
It could be very true. Nobody is. The baseline dynamic remains she yells -> he gives. Whether that yelling has been triggered by him remains in question, but that cycle needs to break at any rate.

Even if he's an ******* triggering the whole thing, him pulling away attention will trigger a shift and a conversation that can yield results - but only on an even, honest playing field.

The point is not to train her, it's to break any unconscious conditioning in both of them that reinforces a negative stimulus/response cycle and force an intervention.

Let me give you a real example of mine, that I've used before: my wife asking me to vacuum. She asked me, so I did it. She then came up, "supervised" me, and criticized the job - by pointing out that the 'lines' in the carpet weren't straight. I had never noticed before then that vacuuming left lines in the carpet. I said I didn't care about the lines, she asked me to vacuum so I was vacuuming. And successfully getting the carpet clean. She insisted I was doing it wrong, that I didn't know how to vacuum properly, and insisted I started doing it right.

So when she started being aggressive and rude about it, I dropped the vacuum and walked away. This of course made her very angry.

When she tried to express that anger to me, I refused to engage with her about it. When she calmed down, I used the conflict to set some ground rules: you can ask me to do something, or tell me how to do it, but you can't do both. To me, vacuuming is about cleanliness. To her, it was more. So... when I vacuum now (rarely - it's now a 'pink' job), she leaves me to it, knowing I'll get it clean but not look the way she wants it. If she wants it that way, she can do it herself, because that's reasonable.

What she can't do is screech at me and just have me running around making her happy as a consequence. We tried that relationship style, and it didn't work for either one of us. But the more I ran around responding to that stuff, the harder it was for her to see it was unreasonable, and the less I listened to her valid criticism about the stuff I was or wasn't doing... because all I heard or cared about was the screeching.

But you have to be unafraid of conflict to get there. The one that is more unafraid of conflict usually wins the conflict - and that was certainly my wife. Until it wasn't.

Last edited by Marduk; 11-21-2019 at 05:56 PM.
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-21-2019, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lila View Post
I prefer to get more information about the OP's personal behaviors affecting the dynamics in the relationship rather than assuming he's doing everything right and she's the evil one who needs to be trained to respond. She may just be reacting to his behaviors, that have nothing to do with power dynamic. He did admit that he's no angel. I'm more curious what that means.
It could be very true. Nobody is. The baseline dynamic remains she yells -> he gives. Whether that yelling has been triggered by him remains in question, but that cycle needs to break at any rate.

Even if he's an ******* triggering the whole thing, him pulling away attention will trigger a shift and a conversation that can yield results - but only on an even, honest playing field.

The point is not to train her, it's to break any unconscious conditioning in both of them that reinforces a negative stimulus/response cycle and force an intervention.
It really sounds to me like OP is the one that is afraid of having a conversation. He won't even go to MC because he's afraid the counselor will make it seem like it's his fault. Major red flag when I read stuff like that.
@jatkins29, I have some questions...

1) are you currently employed?

2) you said your wife says "you never do as I asked" when you ignore her requests? Do you have a history of ignoring her or not listening to her?

3) you said you took your wife to New York City. What do you mean by You took your wife? Did you plan the vacation? Was it a surprise or something you two had talked about doing for a while? Was the plaza her idea or yours?

4) do you compliment your wife? Does she know you think she's beautiful?

5) do you take your wife out on dates? Dates that you plan?

6) When did you start having these feelings? Was it before or after your cyst surgery?


ETA:

7) you stated "We got married right out of college so she’s only the 2nd person I’ve ever been with.". Is that a problem for you? Are you starting to wonder what it's like to have more experience with other women?

8) you said you went to a therapist a year ago but it didn't help. What did you go see the therapist about?

Last edited by Lila; 11-21-2019 at 06:03 PM.
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