So what about "desire"? - Page 3 - Talk About Marriage
Considering Divorce or Separation If you're considering divorce or separation, this is the place to talk.

User Tag List

 118Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 01:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,190
Re: So what about "desire"?

To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.


Last edited by Trickster; 01-26-2020 at 01:06 AM.
Trickster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 01:01 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,190
Re: So what about "desire"?

To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.

I spent the majority of that time jumping through hoops to earn her love and for her to desire me. after all, that what all the books told me to do. I even went to marriage counseling by myself because my ex had no desire to go. We did have sex, but it felt like rape. She just wanted it over. I don't know how we survived so long.

Bottom line... she didn't desire me one bit no matter how often I took her out to dinner, no matter how often I cooked breakfast and dinner, washed clothes, cleaned the toilets, vacuumed, or did laundry. She had no desire for me. Nothing I did changed that.


BTW... she was a 25 year old virgin when we met.

I moved out about two years ago and officially divorced for about a year. Been dating a woman for over a year now and we've had more sex in our first few months than my entire 25 years with my ex. I don't have to do anything and I feel she desires me. That's a whole other happy story though. It's not just the sex, it the affection, the hugging, kissing, the hand holding, it's waking up in the morning with her wrapped in my arms . Morning sex? OMG! never had that in 25 years.


I became a bitter angry person and after all these years, my true happy self has emerged.
Trickster is offline  
post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 8
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.
A quick note of thanks as I have returned home and very shortly plan to address a lot of the issues raised here, directly with my spouse. As I should have expected, sometimes when we ask questions, seeking answers from others, we are forced and challenged to find answers within ourselves. That's entirely been the case here, as everyone's comments have made me think, made me argue with them and myself, and at least for now I feel some clarity. I will not, however, delude myself into thinking that I have found THE answers, but rather AN answer for now that I hope will lead my wife and I to ask new questions about our relationship, and then, we will see where those take us......

Thank you!
Almost220 is offline  
 
post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 11:06 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,333
Re: So what about "desire"?

When I hear about desire I immediately think Esther Perel. Sheís done a lot of work on desire in long term relationships and howís itís really difficult. Watch this 20min video itís worth it.


Girl_power is online now  
post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 10:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,603
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.

I spent the majority of that time jumping through hoops to earn her love and for her to desire me. after all, that what all the books told me to do. I even went to marriage counseling by myself because my ex had no desire to go. We did have sex, but it felt like rape. She just wanted it over. I don't know how we survived so long.

Bottom line... she didn't desire me one bit no matter how often I took her out to dinner, no matter how often I cooked breakfast and dinner, washed clothes, cleaned the toilets, vacuumed, or did laundry. She had no desire for me. Nothing I did changed that.

BTW... she was a 25 year old virgin when we met.

I moved out about two years ago and officially divorced for about a year. Been dating a woman for over a year now and we've had more sex in our first few months than my entire 25 years with my ex. I don't have to do anything and I feel she desires me. That's a whole other happy story though. It's not just the sex, it the affection, the hugging, kissing, the hand holding, it's waking up in the morning with her wrapped in my arms . Morning sex? OMG! never had that in 25 years.

I became a bitter angry person and after all these years, my true happy self has emerged.
This is in fact what MOST of us say to do in these situations. At least I always do.

You can jump through as many hoops as you want, what you learn is that 1) "IT", however you define it, is either there or it is not. And 2) There is NOTHING that you can do to create it, NOTHING.

So the reasoning is it is best to divorce, get yourself healthy mentally and physically, and start over...
BluesPower is online now  
post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 11:19 AM
Member
 
Marduk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 17,881
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost220 View Post
Realized I didn't do the quote correctly for your questions in my post above, and might not be easily readable. So here goes a second try:

Interesting. What happened 3-4 years into the relationship? Kids? Something else?


----- Got married around then! A major move. Some clear depression on her part. You are smart targetting that as root. She once mentioned in therapy having first weaponized sex (withholding it) back then because of the turmoil of the life upheaval. That was the first time I proposed therapy when I saw the signs.
Check. On what, I'll say below.


Quote:
I'm also curious here about your wife's comment about liking to be the leader. Does that mean she likes to be dominant or assertive sexually?

---- Not at all. Over time, super passive. Occasionally she used to mention how in the past (college, before me) she was very comfortable sexually and there were no issues, and yeah..... that's something you really want your wife to say? TO my ears, that translates basically to: "Why yes, before you, I had no issues with desire. So is must be you that I don't desire" NICE. See my above points about being hurt, self esteem eroded from all this!!
Check.

Quote:
Gotcha. I'm testing here because you may have to risk your marriage to save it, then. And it still might not work. So I'm trying to gauge your stakes here.

---- I understand.

Interesting.

My interpretation of this behaviour based on what you wrote might be that she wants to be married to you, knows that you expect a good sex life as part of being married, and she wants to want to have a good sex life with you, but doesn't really. This could be:
1. low libido as a change - hormones, diet, exercise, sleep, depression, etc.
2. low libido as her normal - meaning, she was just kind of faking it in the beginning or was caught up in the new relationship energy and once that wore off, she went back to her normal, default sexuality, which is at a lower level than yours.
3. something happened 3-4 years into your relationship that was a crisis point for her heavily impacting how she felt about you, or how she felt about herself, or how she felt about the relationship. This could be something bad you did, something bad she did, or some perceived core failing in the relationship.
4. she feels unattractive.
5. she feels you are unattractive.
6. she was never that into you at the beginning (doesn't sound that way but I'll throw it out there).
7. she's into someone else. (again, doesn't sound that way, but a lot of stuff you're describing here happened in my first marriage when she started sleeping with someone else).


------ Yeah, in a way at this point I've stopped wondering about the "why" and more about the okay, so what....? Through the years potential explanations from her, me, therapists.... have included depression, low libido. Part of the journey with this has been reading books and through that she started to feel like "there was something wrong with her" for low desire, low initiation and has said before that she "feels like a disappointment." TO which, over time, I've grown more direct in my response saying that, no, she is not a disappointment, though our lack of intimacy very much IS a disappointment. I suspect this, to her, must sound to her ears about as pleasant as the veiled insult from her I quote above, but it is the truth and not sure how else to put it.
Big fat check in red marker here.

Quote:
Hmm. When you say "early on" do you mean 3-4 years into the relationship? Or at the beginning of the relationship?

------ Beginning and early on. Yes, 3-4 years.

What kinds of things would she say specifically when in therapy? Does she ever throw out reasons or justifications? Or is she exasperated and confused?

----- See above. Very rarely has therapy focused directly on the sex. But that's where the above comments come from. Then more complex stuff, therapists volunteer about virgin-***** conundrum.....
****ing MCs. Often focus on the wrong things, and let people off the hook. Check.

Quote:
How happy is she otherwise in the marriage?

---- AS team mates, maybe. But lately, no. Said something to the effect of, she wanted a reset button, that this wasnt the life she had been expecting (haha, again, nice.... you see why I feel like I'm on a railroad track toward divorce! Thus this last ditch desperation plea for wisdom).

Does she say she loves you often?

----nahhhh, not in a meaningful way too often. More out of habit. End of phone conversations, going out the door for work, etc... But often those are more of actually a habit of mine she reciprocates.
Sigh. Check.

Quote:
Is she affectionate with you in non-sexual ways?

------- Hell no. And that's as aggravating as the non intimacy. A hand on my back, grabbing my hand while driving.... all long gone in the relationship. Only time she is directly affectionate is when she feels me pulling back. After I shut down the other night after my initiation was refused, she no doubt then felt guilt or some such and as I laid on the bed for a moment, she rubbed my back,. leg, etc... made a flattering comment about my backside (haha) but that is hard to take too seriously. ALl part of what I now tend to see as non-intentional manipulation. She would NEVER have been that affectionate if things hadnt gone the way they had. THrough the years, she has always given our internal clocks as a reason for not matching up with sex. Im a nigfht owl, she prefers it early. To which I have said, she was free to wake me up whenever. Only time she ever took me up on it and woke me up to initiate sex was a month or so ago after a big fight about the same. Wow, that night she desired me, took me up on it and woke me up affectionately and wants..... I stopped her though and said I would only do it (sex) if the advances were for real and not just the same old yoyo ride of manipulation: I pull away, she pulls toward.....
Check. Oh, the stories I could tell.
Quote:

Does she show you appreciation, respect, compassion?

---- yes definitely on all these. And in terms of these emotions they are/seem sincere. There is still love there, I think from these.
Ah, ok. Our first non-check mark.

Quote:
Wow, okay, clearly I have a lot to say on all this!!!! Thanks for the good questions.

Any more advice on how to proceed? I have been away from the house for a few days for work and family, and the absence has dug me in in dark ways and not too excited to go back!
OK. All those check marks above are extreme similarities to my first marriage. My ex wife was (and still is) extremely beautiful and intelligent, but also very calculating with many sexual hangups. She hid many of these from me until we got married. We got to this point where you're at - and continued.

We ended up totally sexless, with an increasing amount of head-****ery and infidelity and straight out emotional abuse. I'll skip past that, because there's one big difference here, and that is that she still seems to respect you. My ex didn't.

What I came to understand is that my ex saw sex differently than I did. For her, from what I've gathered in her relationships since, it's something to use to get what you want. And when she wants it, she gets bored and moves on, often without breaking up with the other guy first. That was her solution to the whole madonna/***** complex - to leverage and use sex, because good girls shouldn't directly want it. I'm bringing that up because it was very much a component of the whole deal here - that she shouldn't (and maybe couldn't) just have sex be a normal part of a relationship.

If that's where your wife is at, then she must choose to change or she must choose to respect you enough to wish you well on your journey forward without her.

Alternatively, it's very possible or even probable that she was never that into you to begin with. Many a guy here has posted just to discover that he was the husband his wife wanted to want... but just didn't want. In this scenario, surprisingly, all might not be lost depending on what triggers her. Do you know what guys she was into before she met you? Do you know why she picked you instead of those other guys? Are you the stable one that she was expected to marry?

Some of the other alternatives still stand, for example depression. However you first and foremost need to find a new therapist, one that will hold her feet to the fire. She needs to understand that you are at a decision point. She needs to understand that you took an oath of monogamy when you married her, not an oath of celibacy. And she needs to understand - like my ex wife refused to - that you can't tick sex off like check box on your to-do list to get your spouse off your back. Like the rest of the relationship, you need to be in or out.

And quite frankly, she sounds like a friend that you have children with, not a wife.
Marduk is online now  
post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-03-2020, 10:26 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,190
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost220 View Post
A quick note of thanks as I have returned home and very shortly plan to address a lot of the issues raised here, directly with my spouse. As I should have expected, sometimes when we ask questions, seeking answers from others, we are forced and challenged to find answers within ourselves. That's entirely been the case here, as everyone's comments have made me think, made me argue with them and myself, and at least for now I feel some clarity. I will not, however, delude myself into thinking that I have found THE answers, but rather AN answer for now that I hope will lead my wife and I to ask new questions about our relationship, and then, we will see where those take us......

Thank you!

When I left my marriage, I felt like an ogre. I left thinking that I would never find the type of love I was looking for. I felt I would never know what it would feel like to be desired. Leaving still seemed like the best option. During that time, to put it nicely, I became a butthead. Like I wanted to punish her for not loving me...Stupid, I know. I had so much resentment I felt justified to treat her like crap and I regret doing that!

My ex-wife and I get along better than ever now. We have a platonic relationship, which is something she wanted all along. I don't have anymore anger like before.

If I could offer you any advise, it would be to let go of any resentments, anger, and expectations. Look for a way to make everybody happy.
Trickster is offline  
post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 08:59 AM
Moderator
 
farsidejunky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 11,651
Re: So what about "desire"?

Speaking As A Moderator:

The thread jacks stop now.

If you want to discuss religion in marriage, Esther Perel, or any number of other things that seem to have derailed this thread, start your own thread.

First and final warning (more names to be added as I clean this up):
@Marduk @MJJEAN @Cletus @BluesPower @Diana7 @3Xnocharm @Girl_power @Livvie

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley

Last edited by farsidejunky; 02-04-2020 at 09:26 AM.
farsidejunky is online now  
post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 11:19 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Florida
Posts: 57
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJEAN View Post
What you're missing here is not all women want sex. Some rarely want sex. Some want sex, but chose husbands they aren't sexually attracted to because they prioritized other attributes in mate selection. So, the low/no libido wife hums along just fine getting her needs met while the high libido husband goes without.
I don't think i'm missing anything. Are you saying "not all women want sex", or "not all women want sex with their husband". If it's the former, then I would say you're wrong as only 1% of the entire population of the world identify as "asexual". Now, if it's the latter, you're correct and it happens a lot. With that said, I stand by my post where I mentioned "she's not getting sex either". The woman wants sex but with "who" is the question. I know my wife wouldn't "hum along" with anyone without intimacy, doesn't matter what kind of security they provide. I think you are the same way.
Mybabysgotit is offline  
post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 12:00 PM
Member
 
MJJEAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: MI
Posts: 4,171
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mybabysgotit View Post
I don't think i'm missing anything. Are you saying "not all women want sex", or "not all women want sex with their husband". If it's the former, then I would say you're wrong as only 1% of the entire population of the world identify as "asexual". Now, if it's the latter, you're correct and it happens a lot. With that said, I stand by my post where I mentioned "she's not getting sex either". The woman wants sex but with "who" is the question. I know my wife wouldn't "hum along" with anyone without intimacy, doesn't matter what kind of security they provide. I think you are the same way.
Regarding the bolded, both. I know women who have decent sex drives, but not for the men they are/were married to. I know others who simply think sex is either kind of stupid/pointless/silly/meh and are quite happy to have sex as infrequently as possible.

Most people aren't going to identify as asexual. That doesn't mean they have a healthy libido or long for and crave sex.

"I'm not asexual! I just don't feel the need for it more than a couple times a year."

"I'm not asexual! I just prefer getting my sexual needs met through masturbation rather than partnered sex."


Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
MJJEAN is offline  
post #41 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 03:29 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: West Coast USA
Posts: 1,287
Re: So what about "desire"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJEAN View Post
Regarding the bolded, both. I know women who have decent sex drives, but not for the men they are/were married to. I know others who simply think sex is either kind of stupid/pointless/silly/meh and are quite happy to have sex as infrequently as possible.

Most people aren't going to identify as asexual. That doesn't mean they have a healthy libido or long for and crave sex.

"I'm not asexual! I just don't feel the need for it more than a couple times a year."

"I'm not asexual! I just prefer getting my sexual needs met through masturbation rather than partnered sex."
And if you asked these "asexual" folk if they were in a happy marriage, or if their marriage was a success, how would they answer? I'll bet an astounding percentage would be in the happy or successful camp. Despite a very different answer from their partner, whose view simply doesn't seem to figure in.

I'm sure there are some who are wired in such a way that the "asexual" category is a very sad thing state of affairs for them, centering on a sex problem. But for many, I think that's letting them off the hook too easily. It's not a "sex" problem, it's a living-in-their-own-world problem. There's a lack of empathy or possibly an unspoken & severe aversion caused by trauma. Or perhaps a total and complete lack of understanding what it means to be in a (romantic) relationship, much less married.

I keep coming up with the most inane comparisons, yet I think they're valid. I don't like doing much of anything in the kitchen, especially cleaning up. Or mopping floors. I avoided it for years. UNTIL... until I didn't. Until I realized that this was time I could spend with my wife, reducing her burden, making her happier, talking with her, just being with her. And today? I look forward to working with her in the kitchen (not cooking; she'd never let me do that, for good reason!). I enjoy it. Because it means something to her. It means something to us. And I enjoy it
EVERY
SINGLE
TIME.

Why the emphasis on every single time? Because it came up in a discussion with my wife the other day, the progression of our sex life from resentful (on her part) to willing to, if we can really get there, desire. And she said, she thinks she's there, because *most* days we have sex, she gets the connection it offers me, she understands that it makes things better for both of us. The other days, she's "willing." And I explained to her, regarding the kitchen stuff, that I can be dead tired, I could be sick even, I could have a thousand things on my to-do list, and it doesn't matter. I want to be in that kitchen with her, helping clean up.

It's a decision I made. Once I made that decision, it didn't take me months and months to ease into it, or get better at it. I never looked back. I agree again, the comparison seems nuts, but I desire to be helping her in the kitchen. Because it brings us together, because it's something I'm doing for her, that she appreciates. That last part.

THAT
SHE
APPRECIATES

That's key. Because our partners may get into this thing of all the stuff they do *for* us, but they're not thinking about what their partner would find special. Rather, it's whatever's within their own comfortable basket of talents that they're willing to offer up. It's not based on anything you desire. It's based totally on their own way of thinking, something they might willingly do for anyone.

What I do is look for things that SHE will appreciate. Not the "What about how hard I work so you can have the nice things you want?" type of thing, because then it's all about me, not her.
Casual Observer is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome