Controversial Topic: Infidelity - Page 8 - Talk About Marriage
Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #106 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 05:44 PM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
Yes and no. What you are, and maybe many others are missing is the law that says women must enthusiastically consent. When you add that to the government does not recognize cheating as such, since there are no legal consequences in most states, it seems to me that the state has chosen to blame women for all infidelity.

Men are something else. The problem is, you and others are trying to look through the filter of feminism. I wasn't even thinking of equality. That's why I have said a few times, you guys and gals are assuming too much. It's coloring your replies and thinking.

This thread isn't about feminism and that's off topic.

It's not about me being unfaithful as some assume. That's off topic.
The law does not say that only women have to enthusiastically agree (or whatever the legal language actually is). It says that any person engaging in sex has to.

There have been cases of men being raped as well.

You are using the argument that is used in certainly religions and backward countries that only punish women for infidelity and sex outside marriage, that it's always the woman's fault.

If a man cheat's it's his choice to do so. It's not the fault of the woman he cheats with. And if a woman cheats, it's her fault and not the fault of the man she cheats with.


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post #107 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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Originally Posted by Lila View Post
I didn't say you haven't allowed anyone to disagree with you. What I said was you do not want anyone to disagree with you based on your post



I have tried to remove the posts that were off topic. The remaining opinions may not be to your liking but they are in response to your OP and have been respectful.
Not exactly what I meant. They had no clue where I was headed. Assumed what I meant. Then, came to some conclusions.

I had to consistently try to help them see they weren't following and their conclusions were then way off. Did I not allow @faithfulwife to tell me I needed to learn some things? No, I explained that's what I wanted to know and would ask my counselor, as well.

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post #108 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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The law does not say that only women have to enthusiastically agree (or whatever the legal language actually is). It says that any person engaging in sex has to.

There have been cases of men being raped as well.

You are using the argument that is used in certainly religions and backward countries that only punish women for infidelity and sex outside marriage, that it's always the woman's fault.

If a man cheat's it's his choice to do so. It's not the fault of the woman he cheats with. And if a woman cheats, it's her fault and not the fault of the man she cheats with.
Well, I guess I sort of am using a similar logic to those countries. I hadn't thought about that. I only considered that the laws are what makes something real. Our laws have come to this. Not so much me.

I actually believe that men have a choice. I actually believe that they can be unfaithful. However, I suspended my beliefs to address this issue I was thinking about.

There have been cases of men being raped. I agree. No big deal to the state or most folks.

I disagree that it's not the fault of the woman when you consider the laws today. A man can't be responsible for the decision of a woman. Since the law does not address infidelity, there is no such thing. Neither a man, nor a woman can commit adultery or be unfaithful. Besides, they make vows to the state, not each other. They only have an expectation with each other.

Why didn't I address that neither men nor women can commit adultery according to the state? Didn't really think it was necessary, nor did I think my beliefs were unknown.

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post #109 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 06:30 PM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

I think the law is (in general) symmetric, everyone has to consent. Its quite possible that the law isn't enforced equally because there is some biased belief out there that women can't rape men, but as far as I know, sex with a non-consenting person of either gender is rape.

I think in the great majority of cases cheating involves consent by both. If not, then its rape, and that is so much more serious that people tend to not worry about the cheating). So I'm a bit confused - if we are not talking about rape, then the law has very little to say about cheating either way.

So if both consent, who is the gate keeper? As far as I know, women and men cheat at roughly equal rates, and in general are both consenting to the affair. There may be some variation in the reasons given for cheating, but I think that there is a lot of overlap even there.

It seems completely symmetric to me. My wife and I have roughly equal opportunity to cheat, and would be equally responsible if either of us did so.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
Yes and no. What you are, and maybe many others are missing is the law that says women must enthusiastically consent. When you add that to the government does not recognize cheating as such, since there are no legal consequences in most states, it seems to me that the state has chosen to blame women for all infidelity.

Men are something else. The problem is, you and others are trying to look through the filter of feminism. I wasn't even thinking of equality. That's why I have said a few times, you guys and gals are assuming too much. It's coloring your replies and thinking.

This thread isn't about feminism and that's off topic.

It's not about me being unfaithful as some assume. That's off topic.
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post #110 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 06:33 PM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

As far as I know in most western countries the law is symmetric between men and women an in most countries (I think) it is not a crime for either to cheat.

There are countries that do have a very biased legal system where the legal blame is put on the women. Is that what you are talking about?


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Well, I guess I sort of am using a similar logic to those countries. I hadn't thought about that. I only considered that the laws are what makes something real. Our laws have come to this. Not so much me.

I actually believe that men have a choice. I actually believe that they can be unfaithful. However, I suspended my beliefs to address this issue I was thinking about.

There have been cases of men being raped. I agree. No big deal to the state or most folks.

I disagree that it's not the fault of the woman when you consider the laws today. A man can't be responsible for the decision of a woman. Since the law does not address infidelity, there is no such thing. Neither a man, nor a woman can commit adultery or be unfaithful. Besides, they make vows to the state, not each other. They only have an expectation with each other.

Why didn't I address that neither men nor women can commit adultery according to the state? Didn't really think it was necessary, nor did I think my beliefs were unknown.
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post #111 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 07:15 PM
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How about this: It's the dude who is the actual gatekeeper and perpetrator in the cheating act, *as being discussed in this thread*, because HE is the one who has to get...erect in order for the act to be performed. He is the gatekeeper. If he isn't aroused, it's not gonna happen.
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post #112 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 10:06 PM
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Don’t know. Would it be considered a marriage/committed relationship anymore if there is gatekeeping in the first place?
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post #113 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 12:34 AM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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Yes, and even if she doesn't refuse him that often(everyone needs to refuse when ill or something), isn't the woman the one who allows sex to happen?
It takes all parties.

For a variety of reasons I have turned down plenty of women who wanted to have sex with me, by not affording them any sexual consent.

I have had different women plead with me, beg, offer various inducements and make other appeals for me to have sex with them to no avail, when I have not wanted to have sex with them.

Plus on rare occasion following changing my mind, I have also withdrawn sexual consent with women while having sex. Which has seen me stop having sex, where in one instance I remained while talking about the situation. While in another it has seen me grab my things and leave.

Likewise there have also been very limited occasions, when men have wanted to have sex with me and I have turned them down in all instances.

Absent being forced to have sex against ones will, which negates consent. All genders are responsible for consent and are gatekeepers of themselves.

It is a misnomer to believe that women are the only group that control consensual access to sexual activities.
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post #114 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 02:36 AM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

In law intent is critical. And I suspect it is here too.
post #115 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 10:30 AM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

I don't think it is relevant that cheating isn't unlawful.

For most people, a relationship is about trust. When you enter into a relationship, you are trusting the other person with your future. When they break your trust, they harm the relationship.

For many, the greatest breach of trust is being intimate with someone else. Wouldn't matter what the punishment for cheating is. It is still the greatest betrayal.


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post #116 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 12:01 PM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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Yes, but according to the state, which issues your marriage license, you aren't cheating. Go and try to sue for divorce due to infidelity. Most states don't recognize it.
First, that statement is incorrect. The majority of states in the U.S. still allow a spouse to file for divorce on grounds of adultery. Less than 20 states have strictly no-fault laws.

Second, you're moving the goal posts here on the definition of cheating. This is the first reference that I've seen in this thread to a legal, as opposed to a moral, definition of cheating.

And while we're on the subject of the law and cheating, most state laws agree with my point that a third party has no responsibility for spouses maintaining their marriage vows (or not). Only a handful of states have alienation of affection or tortious interference with marriage laws on the books.

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However, they have made women the gatekeepers. Okay, not a bad thing. Women have always been the gatekeepers. You don't just grab a woman and ****. She has to consent. You have to be attractive to her and as some said, she must be attractive to you. You aren't going to go after a woman who is not attractive, so that's a moot point. Women are starting to go after men, but that's not as common as men needing to make the first move.

So, women are the gatekeepers and always have been. Nothing has changed, except for with some women. Read the links to understand. Read the threads here on attraction. I'm not posting links to those. You guys have read at least one. I've read several and participated in some.
Who is "they" who have made women gatekeepers?

Part of me simply disagrees with the logic being used to promote your hypothesis because I haven't viewed women as the gatekeepers since high school. I view sex as the outcome of a social dance between two individuals based on mutual attraction. Either person can choose whether or not to engage in the dance. Either person can make a misstep that kills the other's attraction. I understand that men are more frequently the pursuers and are probably more frequently rejected by women than women are rejected by men, but that still doesn't change the mutual agency involved or absolve a man of responsibility for making the decision to have sex.

And in the context of marriage specifically, any suggestion that the woman (or LD spouse) is a "gatekeeper" just seems like a really unhealthy way of looking at it, even if there is a basis for making that argument, because that's a very transactional view of marriage. What I mean is this. I generally want sex more than my wife does, so on one hand you could argue that she's the gatekeeper of sex because I'm more often the one initiating/pursuing. On the other hand, I know that she won't refuse sex (without good reason) if I pursue it, so it's not like she's withholding or limiting the amount of sex I have. I don't view her as the gatekeeper of sex any more than she views me as the gatekeeper of sex (even when I turn her down), compliments or any other way I show her love.

That may seem like semantics, but I strongly believe that how we view the marriage shapes our reality. Whether it's sex or anything else, viewing it from a positive and unselfish perspective rather than a controlling or quid pro quo viewpoint is critical to marital satisfaction.

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post #117 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 01:13 PM
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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If women are the gatekeepers, how can a man be a cheater?

I have my own opinions. I wanted to read yours... if you dare.
This ignores cheating in same sex relationships, so who would be the gatekeeper in that scenario?


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post #118 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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First, that statement is incorrect. The majority of states in the U.S. still allow a spouse to file for divorce on grounds of adultery. Less than 20 states have strictly no-fault laws.

Second, you're moving the goal posts here on the definition of cheating. This is the first reference that I've seen in this thread to a legal, as opposed to a moral, definition of cheating.

And while we're on the subject of the law and cheating, most state laws agree with my point that a third party has no responsibility for spouses maintaining their marriage vows (or not). Only a handful of states have alienation of affection or tortious interference with marriage laws on the books.



Who is "they" who have made women gatekeepers?

Part of me simply disagrees with the logic being used to promote your hypothesis because I haven't viewed women as the gatekeepers since high school. I view sex as the outcome of a social dance between two individuals based on mutual attraction. Either person can choose whether or not to engage in the dance. Either person can make a misstep that kills the other's attraction. I understand that men are more frequently the pursuers and are probably more frequently rejected by women than women are rejected by men, but that still doesn't change the mutual agency involved or absolve a man of responsibility for making the decision to have sex.

And in the context of marriage specifically, any suggestion that the woman (or LD spouse) is a "gatekeeper" just seems like a really unhealthy way of looking at it, even if there is a basis for making that argument, because that's a very transactional view of marriage. What I mean is this. I generally want sex more than my wife does, so on one hand you could argue that she's the gatekeeper of sex because I'm more often the one initiating/pursuing. On the other hand, I know that she won't refuse sex (without good reason) if I pursue it, so it's not like she's withholding or limiting the amount of sex I have. I don't view her as the gatekeeper of sex any more than she views me as the gatekeeper of sex (even when I turn her down), compliments or any other way I show her love.

That may seem like semantics, but I strongly believe that how we view the marriage shapes our reality. Whether it's sex or anything else, viewing it from a positive and unselfish perspective rather than a controlling or quid pro quo viewpoint is critical to marital satisfaction.
The only thing wrong with it was the word, majority.

This thread wasn't about APs, LD spouses, or any personal views.

"They" are the laws.

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post #119 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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This ignores cheating in same sex relationships, so who would be the gatekeeper in that scenario?
The vast majority of marriages are between hetero couples. I am not gay. I have not read about their lifestyle. I do not know.

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post #120 of 128 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Controversial Topic: Infidelity

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I don't think it is relevant that cheating isn't unlawful.

For most people, a relationship is about trust. When you enter into a relationship, you are trusting the other person with your future. When they break your trust, they harm the relationship.

For many, the greatest breach of trust is being intimate with someone else. Wouldn't matter what the punishment for cheating is. It is still the greatest betrayal.
The state tells a couple if they are eligible to get married. The state requires you to get a marriage license or contract with the state. The state requires you to get a divorce contract.

Yeah, it's not relevant, it's the only way to look at this from my perspective. Of course, none of you have to do that. You can make up your own thread.

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