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Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #46 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 02:35 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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Isn't the distance the attacker is from you important to whether it's self-defense?
If it goes to court, yes. Which is the point of the Tueller drill. We were asked to write in our instruction booklets our name, the name of the instructor, the date and location of the class, and that on that date we witnessed the drill and the result. You do the drill so that, if you ever have to use your weapon in self defense, you can honestly tell the judge and jury that you personally witnessed how fast an attacker can close a distance before the victim of the attack can defend themselves.

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Do you really think that an AP deserves to be shot and potentially killed?
No. The thing a few folks here seem to be forgetting is that the OM didn't get shot because he was having an affair. He got shot because he came at an armed man with what is legally considered a deadly weapon. Quite a distinction.


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post #47 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 03:19 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

There are several parallel discussions gong on. I think the questions are:

Was it OK to shot him because of the affair. Some people think that itself was sufficient justification

Was it OK to shoot him because he was advancing with a bat. (that is an interesting question of how far, what situation - input on how quickly someone can advance is interesting)

Was the bat story true? It seems a little surprising and I think a lot of people are sensitized by police shootings.

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No. The thing a few folks here seem to be forgetting is that the OM didn't get shot because he was having an affair. He got shot because he came at an armed man with what is legally considered a deadly weapon. Quite a distinction.
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post #48 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 03:21 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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The thing a few folks here seem to be forgetting is that the OM didn't get shot because he was having an affair. He got shot because he came at an armed man with what is legally considered a deadly weapon. Quite a distinction.
The devil is in the details. If the OM had to "go get the bat" there was a break in the argument, unless the cop chased him, which he shouldn't have done--he should've closed the door.

I would feel 1,000% different if the OM had the bat WITH HIM in the house and was coming at the cop when the cop entered his own home. Then the shooting would've been justified.
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post #49 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 03:24 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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I'm disturbed by how many people seem to believe that beating someone who is having an affair with your wife is OK.
To be 100% honest, a little ass kicking I'm ok with. Shooting? Hell no.
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post #50 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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Do you really think that an AP deserves to be shot and potentially killed? In that case, does the wife deserve to be shot as well.
Given the “facts and circumstances” in the three articles I read on this event, yes I think the trainer did deserve to get shot. As far as the wife goes, I don’t have enough infromation.

Everyone must accept that one potential outcome of infidelity can be violence and/or death. Strong passions are involved, and I think that violence happens far more often than reported. I think the media rug-sweeps it. that’s one reason why when I see something like this I post it. If a potential WS or AP sees this and thinks it might happen to them, maybe they’ll think twice.
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post #51 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 03:43 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

I"m not even OK with that. I still feel that the limit on relationship issues is ending the relationship, along with whatever legal benefits one can get with lawyers.

The problem with ass kicking, is why just the other guy? Why not the cheating wife - they were equally culpable. Yet the image of husbands feeling justified beating their wives because they cheated is simply abhorrent to me. If I can't stomach that, how can I stomach beating the person the wife cheated with - who might also be a woman


"good bye, my lawyer will be in contact" seems much cleaner. Revenge is rarely worth the effort.


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To be 100% honest, a little ass kicking I'm ok with. Shooting? Hell no.
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post #52 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 03:49 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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I"m not even OK with that. I still feel that the limit on relationship issues is ending the relationship, along with whatever legal benefits one can get with lawyers.

The problem with ass kicking, is why just the other guy? Why not the cheating wife - they were equally culpable. Yet the image of husbands feeling justified beating their wives because they cheated is simply abhorrent to me. If I can't stomach that, how can I stomach beating the person the wife cheated with - who might also be a woman


"good bye, my lawyer will be in contact" seems much cleaner. Revenge is rarely worth the effort.
That's fair.
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post #53 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 05:41 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
There are several parallel discussions gong on. I think the questions are:

Was it OK to shot him because of the affair. Some people think that itself was sufficient justification

Was it OK to shoot him because he was advancing with a bat. (that is an interesting question of how far, what situation - input on how quickly someone can advance is interesting)

Was the bat story true? It seems a little surprising and I think a lot of people are sensitized by police shootings.
I don't think it's ok to shoot someone for having an affair with your spouse, but it does happen. Do I condone it? No. Do I understand the point of view of the betrayed who, in heat of passion, shoots an AP? Yes.

Was it ok to shoot a man advancing with a bat? Well, I suppose that depends on state law. Here, in my state, yes.

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The devil is in the details. If the OM had to "go get the bat" there was a break in the argument, unless the cop chased him, which he shouldn't have done--he should've closed the door.

I would feel 1,000% different if the OM had the bat WITH HIM in the house and was coming at the cop when the cop entered his own home. Then the shooting would've been justified.
From the articles I've read it seems they were all outside when the shooting occurred. It hasn't been flat stated, but seems consistent with the description of the incident.

In my state, for example, the law states "individuals are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves if they believe their life is in danger" and that "an individual has no duty to retreat if they feel unlawfully threatened by another". Here, the shooting would have been legit even if closing a door had been an option.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #54 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 05:54 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

Anyone that owns a firearm needs to understand the laws of their particular jurisdiction. Many different places have different definitions of when the use of deadly force is justified.

Common sense and what you see in movies will get you killed and/0r jailed.

Generally (really not a good idea) is that deadly force is justified only when your life or the life or the threat of significant physical harm is such that a reasonable person would be left with no other option but to protect themself by using deadly force. Some times this is called self defense.

In this particular case. The Personal Trainer can probably be shown in a court to be in good physical shape and therefore more of a threat than most. The Trainer also came at the husband with a baseball bat, which is a deadly weapon.

The husband whether a police officer or not has a right to defend him/herself from a deadly force attack by using deadly force.

In some jurisdictions (especially non-USA countries) you have a duty to try to avoid a deadly force controntation. In other jurisdictions you may stand your ground under the castle doctrine.

Generally, the emotional trauma in taking a life is huge as is the potential financial cost of attorneys, lost work time, etc. It is far better from a rational man concept to take steps to avoid a deadly force confrontation if at all possible.

In this case locking the door after the trainer left and calling 911 would have been much more defensible. Also, exiting the house by the back door by the husband after the trainer left. From a jury perspective it is better to retreat, until cornered before using deadly force.

Do I think that the husband will be charged with a crime? Probably not as it generally fits the requirements of most use of deadly force laws. Do I think that husband will suffer because he put a bullet in the trainer? Yes, but not likely behind bars in a jail cell.

Should the trainer after he left the house and went to his car, just got in the car and driven off? Absolutely. It takes two to fight and the trainer had ample opportunity to prevent the situation. In most jurisdictions when someone escalates a confrontation to include deadly force (the baseball bat) they loose the right to claim self defense.
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post #55 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 06:07 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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Yeah, it is weird. The BH with a baseball bat makes sense - angry, irrational. The other way around? Why did the trainer want to beat the BH? (unless the BH was beating his wife or something). Its very strange.

I'm disturbed by how many people seem to believe that beating someone who is having an affair with your wife is OK.
My deceased ex WW's lover attacked me and I beat him silly. It was worth the arrest and short stay in jail. And I would do it again.

This trainer came after a man, with a deadly weapon, on his property. I don't know what Mr. Rogers neighborhood you were raised in, but I was raised to believe in the castle doctrine. You attack me on my property, you pay the price.

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post #56 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 06:11 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

Why did he attack you? I understand your wanting to attack him, but I don't understand his motivation for attacking you.

I believe that the law is the ultimate resource for retribution, and that personal force should only be used in actual defense.



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My deceased ex WW's lover attacked me and I beat him silly. It was worth the arrest and short stay in jail. And I would do it again.

This trainer came after a man, with a deadly weapon, on his property. I don't know what Mr. Rogers neighborhood you were raised in, but I was raised to believe in the castle doctrine. You attack me on my property, you pay the price.
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post #57 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 06:54 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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Was it ok to shoot a man advancing with a bat? Well, I suppose that depends on state law. Here, in my state, yes.

From the articles I've read it seems they were all outside when the shooting occurred. It hasn't been flat stated, but seems consistent with the description of the incident.

In my state, for example, the law states "individuals are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves if they believe their life is in danger" and that "an individual has no duty to retreat if they feel unlawfully threatened by another". Here, the shooting would have been legit even if closing a door had been an option.
You bring up a good point. I can't be certain, but here where I live, I'm pretty sure the aggressor has to be across the threshold of your home to defend yourself and not get into legal trouble.

And to everyone here I SO appreciate that we aren't fighting in this thread, unlike what happens in the politics and religion forums.
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post #58 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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Why did he attack you? I understand your wanting to attack him, but I don't understand his motivation for attacking you.

I believe that the law is the ultimate resource for retribution, and that personal force should only be used in actual defense.
You can believe what you want via your emotions but it won't carry water in a court of law. Your idea of "actual defense" doesn't jibe with the law that is on the books.

You and Lucy should look up "duty to retreat" and the definition of a deadly weapon.
I'm not risking my life by questioning the intent of a man who is brandishing a deadly weapon while coming towards me. This ain't Hollywood, it's real life.
Do you think you'd be less dead if your skull was split open by a baseball bat than you would be being shot by a handgun or stabbed with a kitchen knife? Dead is dead and I for one am not knowledgeably giving anyone the upper hand in "deading" me and if I'm standing in my house I will NOT retreat (the laws of your state may vary). This guy being a cop is immaterial.

p.s. @MJJEAN I love seeing someone who has educated themselves and trained to take responsibility for their and their family's personal safety. Kudos to you.

"But I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd."

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post #59 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 07:27 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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You can believe what you want via your emotions but it won't carry water in a court of law. Your idea of "actual defense" doesn't jibe with the law that is on the books.

You and Lucy should look up "duty to retreat" and the definition of a deadly weapon.
I'm not risking my life by questioning the intent of a man who is brandishing a deadly weapon while coming towards me. This ain't Hollywood, it's real life.
Do you think you'd be less dead if your skull was split open by a baseball bat than you would be being shot by a handgun or stabbed with a kitchen knife? Dead is dead and I for one am not knowledgeably giving anyone the upper hand in "deading" me and if I'm standing in my house I will NOT retreat (the laws of your state may vary). This guy being a cop is immaterial.

p.s. @MJJEAN I love seeing someone who has educated themselves and trained to take responsibility for their and their family's personal safety. Kudos to you.
I wonder if he was better off being outside in front of witnesses when this happened. When it is inside, there's no telling what his "wife" would tell the police. They tend to believe her before him. He's enraged. She's just having some adult fun with the trainer. Lots of judges look at it that way.

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post #60 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-29-2019, 07:34 PM
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Re: Actions Have Consequences

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I wonder if he was better off being outside in front of witnesses when this happened. When it is inside, there's no telling what his "wife" would tell the police. They tend to believe her before him. He's enraged. She's just having some adult fun with the trainer. Lots of judges look at it that way.
I won't speculate what a judge or jury may believe or decide, but it would be a kick in the pants if his body camera was rolling.

"But I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd."

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