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post #61 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 02:09 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

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Originally Posted by Rubix Cubed View Post
I'm not sure a new group is really an option, also not sure why he quit. My wife volunteered to stop going which makes me feel bad because it has been a very important part of her life for over 10 years.
We are sorting through all of that now. I actually sent the guy an email saying I knew what had happened and asked what was said to him about me. I do business with him and put it in a reply to a business email. My wife agreed to no contact.I'm trying to find the line that needs to be walked on this without going overboard. What she has admitted to is one inappropriate conversation with the TOO much detail coming from him. It's not a full blown PA or EA unless they almost never communicated outside of class. I've seen one email. So I'm not sure at what level to try to handle all of this.
Its very hard to have no contact if they are in a home group together. You just all sit together in a living room and it would look odd if she refused to talk to him.
Not sure why she cant change groups. People often do that in my church.

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post #62 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 02:18 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

I think it’s a natural reaction while in the middle of a poor choice to want to feign that which we do not wish to address… whether it be something we have crossed inappropriately or are about to be in a position to cross.

I say in the middle because while it is happening, we all know that little voice that says “you shouldn’t be here” yet still we place ourselves there because our desires to that will simply override our mindful self that says “there is no free pleasure (attention), what is the true cost?”.

Yet still we justify it somehow.

If you move too close to the edge you risk falling off… matters not what.

What we also fail to recognize is that pretending we haven’t got too close when we have already tumbled off and are in full flight to the bottom… flapping your arms in mid decent will not reduce the fall... unwise to dance on the edge because one slip and it's done.

Fortunately, life differs than true gravity unless we choose to hurt everything around us and plummet without recourse, life presents us more with an ability to stop in mid fall and do no more harm to the harm already done, but that takes an honest look at where we are and if we can put aside our fear and be open, but too often that is also guised as protecting another when all we are wanting to do is protect ourselves against other’s disapproval or anger.

After 30 years of marriage, your wife probably knows which side of you reacts and what invokes it… is it possible her fear of this judgement (placed from poor boundaries or not) is the root of her minimizing or “trickle-truthing”? Communication decreases because reaction increases so keep working on removing that which closes her off to minimize or trickle-truth information important to you and perhaps will build a better bond with her in humility in Christ.

I have to admit I found the courier story in #20 curious… and odd that she would share the personal you with someone that should be a superficial acquaintance. Since you too are Christian and there are all these prayers centered around you, I would ask her to no longer ask people to pray for you but to pray with you… no matter where.

Let her know that the prayers are important to you too and anytime she wants to pass that strength of hope and comfort to you, to plan a time to include you… let your presence receive the strength where it should be, in your presence.

**When my marriage was in the beginning weeks of disassembly, my Christian friends did not say they would pray for me, they asked to pray with me and even though it was not my spiritual path, I bowed my head with them as they asked God to strengthen and keep things kind through the hurdles to come -they knew me and what was important to me even through I never shared a service one with them.

This also requires you to give as well, effort on your part to be humble and open to receive the grace that is meant to be channeled to you in the place of the prayer. This accomplishes two things… it places you in the best possible place to receive the blessing and it shows strength in character that you are not too proud and can face your troubles without fear, or at least too much to be stuck and not moving forward.

It also lets them hear from you directly what you need direct prayers for, not someone speaking for you which can place a perception of weakness and cause unmindful thoughts from the group, or one in the group.

Presence may also keep the wolves in sheeps clothing at bay… although it always surprises me that men and women of faith would use faith as an exploitive means as being a true believe would give you insight to the wrath that will come to you for doing so.

I also wonder as another poster did about her need to be part of the participating portion of this prayer group… that she feels she too must offer her “dues” to be an active part of the group. Does she feel like she has to invest like this in other areas? She doesn’t have to divulge a thing more than “Please pray for my husband who is struggling”… no details required.

Do you think it of value to drop the “what was said to him then”, especially since no-contact has been agreed to? Perhaps stay off the fine line of relying on “memory lane” and keep it focused on “in the present” lane, much easier going forward in the light than trying to retrace the steps where you came from in the dark.

नमस्ते 🙏

Last edited by Emerging Buddhist; 02-19-2018 at 02:24 PM.
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post #63 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife and prayer

@Emerging Buddhist ,

Thank you for your wise input. It's a lot to absorb so I will comment on the end, re: fine line.
I would like to let her continue w/ the bible study because I can predict the resentment that will build if she doesn't, even if by her choice at my suggestion. She has made much progress since that time(4 years ago) and I've seen it in actions in reference to boundaries. I just don't know if it is enough to completely trust her in his presence. I don't think he is a crush or a prospect to my wife and the environment would prohibit any physical contact but then I'll have that 'doubt' gerbil wheel spinning in my head the whole time she is there. It feels like my choices are resentment against me or rugsweeping.

I emailed the guy and got complete denial and a bit of righteous condescension suggesting Christian marriage counseling. I didn't expect much and didn't get it. I replied informing him that I knew it had happened and a landmark event in his life at the timeframe it happened and that the circumstances were predatorial/playerish, and that I hoped that wasn't the case. I also asked him to have no further contact with my wife. He hasn't replied, and I doubt he will.
@Diana7
The prayer group is ecumenical not based out of just my wife's church ( turns out this guy no longer goes to her church, just this study group) and is an advanced level group, that even if I had a desire to go, I'd be lost. Not to mention I'm not going to babysit my wife. I had little interest in the group to begin with but now that I know some of them( no idea who all she told, but a few) have heard how "horrible I am/used to be" that has blown any chance of going and enjoying it right out of the water.

Last edited by Rubix Cubed; 02-19-2018 at 04:36 PM. Reason: punctuation
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post #64 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 03:28 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

I have made big decisions in my life based on fear of my husband's resentment. I think in most cases I shouldn't have done that. I should have advocated for myself because I was just trading his resentment for my discomfort and pain.

I think she should be asked to find it in her heart to remove herself from the people she so improperly confided in, thus being a true caretaker of your M. A complete break and a fresh start with updated knowledge about what you should both expect in terms of boundaries.
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post #65 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 03:33 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

As others have said, your wife needs to not listen to men tell her personal things about his marriage, nor confide personal things to men. The guise of "prayer" does not change the inappropriateness of such conversations. People can also use the guise of "prayer" to gossip or divulge information on others.

Even if the man simply had very poor boundaries, he and your wife were treading on very dangerous ground speaking about their marital problems.

Since he has not had inappropriate conversations since that time, he must have not gotten the right cues from her, and put his sights elsewhere. Or he could be waiting for further cues from her.
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post #66 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 03:48 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

@Rubix Cubed,

My husband's affair was carried out at church. At the time he was not living with us due to work, and attending a church by himself in the town he lived.

The OW was his friend's wife, and the pastor's daughter. He had never been attracted to her, or gotten any strange vibes from her. Not until one day when he was in the church kitchen, and she came in and broke down crying, and said she was a "terrible wife." He was taken aback, but had sympathy for her.

They had no contact for a few days, until they met again at a Bible study held at night. After the Bible study they spoke outside, alone, about her marital problems and he confided his problems (of which I was not aware, since he was a poor communicator....except when it came to talking with OW evidently.)

She phoned him later that night, to "give him advice about his marital problems," and then they spoke for 4 hours. By the end of that conversation my husband was hooked on her and within 2 weeks they were committed to leaving their spouses and being together!

She divorced her husband and went on to have more boyfriends, while my husband recommitted to me and we have struggled in our marriage since then.

Your need to make it perfectly clear to your wife that she had better not ever speak with that man, or any other man before or after that Bible study, or you will reconsider whether you want to remain married to her based on her loyalty to your marriage.

Last edited by Adelais; 02-19-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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post #67 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife and prayer

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@Rubix Cubed,

My husband's affair was carried out at church. At the time he was not living with us due to work, and attending a church by himself in the town he lived.

The OW was his friend's wife, and the pastor's daughter. He had never been attracted to her, or gotten any strange vibes from her. Not until one day when he was in the church kitchen, and she came in and broke down crying, and said she was a "terrible wife." He was taken aback, but had sympathy for her.

They had no contact for a few days, until they met again at a Bible study held at night. After the Bible study they spoke outside, alone, about her marital problems and he confided his problems (of which I was not aware, since he was a poor communicator....except when it came to talking with OW evidently.)

She phoned him later that night, to "give him advice about his marital problems," and then they spoke for 4 hours. By the end of that conversation my husband was hooked on her and within 2 weeks they were committed to leaving their spouses and being together!

She divorced her husband and went on to have more boyfriends, while my husband recommitted to me and we have struggled in our marriage since then.

Your need to make it perfectly clear to your wife that she had better not ever speak with that man, or any other man before or after that Bible study, or you will reconsider whether you want to remain married to her based on her loyalty to your marriage.
Yesterday I gave my wife a hypothetical example that could have been your story almost verbatim. It sucks that there is even a "textbook standard" cheater's script.
The 2 weeks part is extremely disconcerting.
I'll be interested in my wife's thoughts on your posts.

I wish you peace in your marriage.
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post #68 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife and prayer

Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).

With the stated events and facts that I have posted :

1) What do you think that the odds of the guy's intentions being completely innocent are?


2)What do you think that the odds of my wife's intentions being completely innocent are?
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post #69 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 06:37 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

@Rubix Cubed

Never get into a battle of morals... it never ends in agreement nor kindness and robs your calm while competing in piety.

I think it a very good idea to encourage her to continue her bible study and prayer groups... it is a good faith offering that your trust in her is important enough to place it open-handed for her to take and grow in.

I also think it best to continue to be totally clear (and it sounds as if you have) about what is acceptable to share and what isn't... offer her a written list on a 3x5 or on her phone in a note that she can reflect on so there is no doubt what has been shared. If you have a lot of conversation so much gets lost in translation, keep it clear and not too detailed... the more simple the better.

Something like:

* We never share the bedroom
* We never share an insecurity
* We never share an undiscussed hurt

I'd also like to offer a response to post#68...

I do not believe his actions were totally innocent or he would have apologized profusely instead of becoming defensive... something hit home.

It's possible (I am not privy to her thinking) your wife may have liked the attention of shared confidence and got too close to the edge... it would help her to remember not all corners have guardrails and she must build her own on the fly from time to time. I would not focus on this but offer a hand up so that she knows you have the confidence in her to make the right choices for you both and then allow her to stand on her merit of actions.

नमस्ते 🙏
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post #70 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 07:25 PM
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Re: Wife and prayer

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Originally Posted by mrsholland View Post
we have a very simple rule: No discussing any issues in our relationship with os unless it is a sibling.

So insanely simple, it works.

To do anything else would be a deliberate inviting of drama into our lives. I love my husband, not drama.
^^^^ this^^^^

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post #71 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife and prayer

We had more discussion tonight and I think we made decent progress.
She admitted that she knew it was wrong when it happened, but didn't comprehend the ramifications or the risk involved.
She also admitted that there was an attraction to him "not looks" but maybe a spiritual attraction (my words). Feels like progress, I guess time will tell.
Tonight was also her bible study night which she did not go to. At this point, she's still strict NC with him, but we are working on some possible options, by my suggestion, I can be at peace with. She said she would not go back if I'm not comfortable with it.
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post #72 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 12:08 AM
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Re: Wife and prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubix Cubed View Post
Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).

With the stated events and facts that I have posted :

1) What do you think that the odds of the guy's intentions being completely innocent are?


2)What do you think that the odds of my wife's intentions being completely innocent are?
This is the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing. I have attended numerous bible studies, and have seen both genders be one of these 2
!. be there to learn about God and support each other,
2. Looking for any piece of strange they can find.

The OM's response should have been a apology and assurance nothing improper was intended. His brushoff sounds more like gas lighting to me. Your wife may have had ok intentions, but I don't think he did.
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post #73 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 02:59 AM
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Re: Wife and prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubix Cubed View Post
Two questions for everyone, especially Bible study group attendees (since you would have a grasp of the environment and mood).

With the stated events and facts that I have posted :

1) What do you think that the odds of the guy's intentions being completely innocent are?


2)What do you think that the odds of my wife's intentions being completely innocent are?
I have said this before but it’s worth saying again.
Women think they know what a man is thinking but they don’t.
If your wife’s is in any slight way attractive then I can guarantee that this guy has wondered about getting her in the sack.
She has thought the same about him,that’s why she is feeling guilty and didn’t want to go to class last night.
If you don’t listen to any other advice please listen to this and again I mean no offense.
Do not allow your wife any contact with this guy,you are being gaslighted and you are now talking about letting her have limited contact with him.She will read this in her fogged up mind that you are ok with their “friendship” and you will be back here in six months.
He is a player and he doesn’t give a damn about you,your marriage or your family.If your wife was an alcoholic would you let her go to the bar “occasionally”, well if you want any peace of mind keep her and this guy apart.
It’s three am where I am and I am angry on your behalf,not a good start to the day.
Keep the fox out of the henhouse,it’s not eggs he is after.
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post #74 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 04:33 AM
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Re: Wife and prayer

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
I wouldn't even share very personal stuff with a sibling. My husband's ex went round telling lots of people about their issues, to get them on her 'side' I think, and he told no one, that's the sort of man he is. He doesn't worry what people think of him and he didn't think it was appropriate to tell others their private stuff.

The only exception I may make is if we saw a MC.
Cool. But we come from different worlds. My siblings are trustworthy as is my Dad (my go to guy), MrH doesn't have as close a relationship with his siblings but I would have no issue with him talking to any of them when we have issues. Neither of us come from families where they would throw us under the bus or get people to take sides. My family adore him and his adore me.

We are odd bods, my family adore MrH V1 and he is as included as MrH V2, not all people are untrustworthy, at least not in my personal experience.
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post #75 of 295 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 07:59 AM
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Re: Wife and prayer

Affairs can -- and do -- start just that easily. Happens all the time. Your wife should not be discussing your marriage -- or you -- with other men. She sounds very naive about how things can go. Hopefully, this has been a wake-up call for her.
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