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post #121 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 11:09 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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I know dan savage is a controversial figure. I do really enjoy listening to him but donít always agree with what he says. I think this is a good watch though.


1. There is no ďoneĒ. We need to round up that .64 to 1.
2. We should be GGG (good, giving and game) within reason.
3. Monogamy is difficult. And infidelity doesnít have to be the end.
In my opinion @Girl_power perhaps the biggest challenge for love boils down to one's self . Too many people have an idea of who they want to be that is misaligned with who they actually are. Then a relationship adds to that misalignment as in "allowing myself to be close to someone prevents me from being who I want to be."

All the time this is going on what is actually happening is that no one will love themselves or allow anyone else to do so in pursuit of trying to be someone else.

The reason monogamy is difficult is parallel to the same reason that people struggle to love and accept ourselves including our imperfections. Until then it is impossible to allow someone to love you in a long term relationship.

For over achievers and those striving for excellence they will see this as giving up, lowering expectations and letting go of yourself. It is definitely not that. It is about not second guessing yourself by constantly comparing yourself to others and being confident to just be yourself in a way that is true and honest while you pursue your dreams and love.

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post #122 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 12:50 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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In my opinion @Girl_power perhaps the biggest challenge for love boils down to one's self . Too many people have an idea of who they want to be that is misaligned with who they actually are. Then a relationship adds to that misalignment as in "allowing myself to be close to someone prevents me from being who I want to be."

All the time this is going on what is actually happening is that no one will love themselves or allow anyone else to do so in pursuit of trying to be someone else.

The reason monogamy is difficult is parallel to the same reason that people struggle to love and accept ourselves including our imperfections. Until then it is impossible to allow someone to love you in a long term relationship.

For over achievers and those striving for excellence they will see this as giving up, lowering expectations and letting go of yourself. It is definitely not that. It is about not second guessing yourself by constantly comparing yourself to others and being confident to just be yourself in a way that is true and honest while you pursue your dreams and love.

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QFT. @badsanta You win this thread today

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post #123 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 04:22 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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Yes and thatís the thing: at the end of the day, isnít the main reason deep down for NM people to open themselves up to other people because they feel there is something missing otherwise? It could be anything but if they are not getting it from their partner, isnít it why there is a need to get it from other people?



Iím curious to understand the real, basic driver for this desire. Maybe for a monogamous person, this is not really possible.

This is a very common misconception among monogs. (I think it is part of the mentality that there is only one "right" way to live and if there is any deviation from that, then it must involve some form of pathology, but that is for another discussion)

In my personal experience and the people I have known first hand, it has actually been quite the opposite. The vast majority of the swingers I have known personally have had very active and robust sex lives. That may seem a bit of a no-brainer at first when you say swingers have active and robust sex lives but I am talking about before they got into swinging.

From what I have experienced is swingers have had active and satisfying enough sex lives that they do not feel threatened or insecure about bringing others into their sex life.

It's the people that are 'missing' something and are experiencing sexual dissatisfaction that are the ones that run for the hills at the thought of someone else coming into their bedroom.

People that are secure and have a sex-positive attitude and an open mind and have a solid and satisfying sex life are often the ones that are the GGG that Dan Savage was talking about.

Swinging is terrible and destructive sex therapy and people trying out the swinging world to try to address marital sexual problems are the ones that self-destruct in minutes of walking in the door.

Swinging is not about replacing anything or filling in any missing gaps. It is about talking things to another level of excitement and pleasure and stimulation into the marital bed.

Many times it is simply about some variety and new flesh after many years or even decades of marriage and raising kids and mowing the lawn. It's rarely even about "better" - just something new and exciting for all.
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post #124 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 04:35 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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Iím curious to understand the real, basic driver for this desire.

Maybe for a monogamous person, this is not really possible.

Each couple will have their own set of desires, objectives and agendas.

For my wife and I, we both wanted to experience 3somes, couple/couple and group sex in real life. We were both open minded, sex-positive and GGG about it. We discussed it, came up with a plan and put it into action.

It was something we both wanted to try and to experience so we discussed it and gave ourselves the green light and then set out to find others that wanted to experience the same thing and we made it happen.

I assume many people would rather stick sharp objects in their eyes that have any other partys in their bedroom and that is their choice and prerogative.

My wife and I ourselves were completely monogamous and traditional the first 10 years of our marriage. Because of that, I don't think people come from to two different molds with some being created monogamous and others being created NM.
(that's why I don't think @sokillme brain scan will actually work LOL) In my 10 years in the lifestyle I did meet a few flower-children and free spirits that have always embraced nonmonogamy, but the vast, vast majority of swingers that have met were middle aged couples with teen or grown kids and who had lived 10,15, or even 20 years as traditional as Ward and June Cleaver and then one day decided to expand their horizon's and get out of the pidgeon hole.

It's a choice. you either want to do it and experience it. Or you don't.

Both monogamy and MN have their own set of risks and benefits and each has their own pros and cons.

But the point I want to make is that it is not a pathology or dysfunction or that there is anything "wrong" with people or couples who make an informed, conscious choice to do it. It is not for everyone. But the fact that it is something nontraditional does not automatically make it something bad or harmful or maladaptive.
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post #125 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 05:40 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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I have also looked into various Swingers Clubs (yes, @FeministInPink, Iím extremely meticulous in my research, thanks very much ), just to get an idea of WTF is going on; one thing that striked (stroke?) me: why is everyone so so fugly??
I literally pictured scenes from Eyes Wide Shut movie in my head but looking at pictures and the reality, itís a lot of quite old, fat and ugly hairy men. And women...I do think that all women are beautiful, but after looking at the Ďfactsí, Iím not so sure anymore...itís like people seem to look ok in clothes but once they come off...oh my eyes!!
Maybe I was researching the wrong ones...Are there ones where you need to have to fit some kind of benchmark for looks/age/body hair etc? (Like in Lunaparks: you can only ride it if you are a certain height).
The problem is, my wife really very very hot and if we ever went to one, it would be such a downgrade that itís difficult to justify for it to be worth it....


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NEWSFLASH: old, fat and ugly people like to get out and have fun and have sex too. And even though they may be old, fat and ugly, they have the right to seek enjoyment just like everyone else.

If someone doesn't trip your trigger, simply swipe left and move on to the next until you do find someone you like that will also have you.

I personally do not have any interest in obese chicks but there are those that do and I think it is great that there are venues where they can each find each other.

If other people think that only the young and beautiful are entitled to sexual fun and pleasure, that is their problem.
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post #126 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 06:16 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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NEWSFLASH: old, fat and ugly people like to get out and have fun and have sex too. And even though they may be old, fat and ugly, they have the right to seek enjoyment just like everyone else.

If someone doesn't trip your trigger, simply swipe left and move on to the next until you do find someone you like that will also have you.

I personally do not have any interest in obese chicks but there are those that do and I think it is great that there are venues where they can each find each other.

If other people think that only the young and beautiful are entitled to sexual fun and pleasure, that is their problem.
YES! I'm neither old nor ugly, but I AM overweight (since I was a teen, pretty much), and I hated my body for years. I didn't learn to truly love and appreciate my body until I got into the kink scene, which in my experience has been very body positive and accepting (and appreciating) of all shapes and sizes. And the people who expressed appreciation of/for my body came in all shapes and sizes (and genders) as well. It literally (in the true meaning of the word) changed my life.

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post #127 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 06:47 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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Many times it is simply about some variety and new flesh after many years or even decades of marriage and raising kids and mowing the lawn.

In other words, because something is missing? Joking.

But really, I donít think thereís any pathology.
Just that if you are going to different restaurants to try different foods, rather than eating the same food every day, itís not irrational to deduce itís because you are bored eating the same food (not because itís wrong or a mistake to be eating different foods).

If you travel to different destinations, itís because you are not that tied to the one destination that you love and want to see the world.

Again, itís all good and well but there is always a cost to consider (which you personally maybe didnít have to pay). Otherwise a lot more people would be doing it!

Non monogamy and being married seems a bit like eating meat and calling yourself a vegetarian, wouldnít you say?



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post #128 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 07:00 PM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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NEWSFLASH: old, fat and ugly people like to get out and have fun and have sex too. And even though they may be old, fat and ugly, they have the right to seek enjoyment just like everyone else.



If someone doesn't trip your trigger, simply swipe left and move on to the next until you do find someone you like that will also have you.



I personally do not have any interest in obese chicks but there are those that do and I think it is great that there are venues where they can each find each other.



If other people think that only the young and beautiful are entitled to sexual fun and pleasure, that is their problem.

Thatís not what I meant: I just wondered why thereís only one type of....íclienteleí in Swinger Clubs (as far as I could tell). Of course everyone and anyone can and should experience pleasure.
I blame Kubrick for providing false expectations
But wouldnít you say that men tend to go to swing with the expectation to have sex with someone hotter than their wife or is that a very off the mark statement?

This is off tangent... but if they do have all kinds of kinks in nature, why do they not seem to have the kink of, for example, a beautiful model wanting to do unspeakable sex acts with extremely ugly men? (And not the other way around).


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post #129 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 07:01 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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Thatís not what I meant: I just wondered why thereís only one type of....íclienteleí in Swinger Clubs (as far as I could tell). Of course everyone and anyone can and should experience pleasure.
I blame Kubrick for providing false expectations
But wouldnít you say that men tend to go to swing with the expectation to have sex with someone hotter than their wife or is that a very off the mark statement?

This is off tangent... but if they do have all kinds of kinks in nature, why do they not seem to have the kink of, for example, a beautiful model wanting to do unspeakable sex acts with extremely ugly men? (And not the other way around).


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It's rediculous to say that there is only one kind if clientele. I have been to clubs all across the country and it is just like going to the supermarket (only people are dressed sexier) in that there is everything from young and hot to old, fat and ugly.
It is a cross-section of the population and so there is an entire spectrum.

And no, I would not say that men go there with a specific expectation of hooking up with someone hotter than their wives. I'd say you are off the mark on that one.

People are drawn to who they are attracted to and hit off with. Some may be hotter, some may not be.

I've found that many men in NSA sex situations will have sex with people that that they would never date or marry. This applies not only to married swingers but also single guys picking up drunk chicks in bars and cheaters etc etc. if they aren't dating/marrying that or bringing them around their friends and family etc, guys tend to not care as much about how hot someone is or isn't.

Men don't care so much about that but women do. Women have a much higher standard for physical attractiveness when it is just NSA sex.

Guys have sex with people yet would never marry based on attractiveness and women marry men they would never have NSA sex with.

Those old, fat, hairy, ugly men you saw probably did not score with any hotties.
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post #130 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 08:36 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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YES! I'm neither old nor ugly, but I AM overweight (since I was a teen, pretty much), and I hated my body for years. I didn't learn to truly love and appreciate my body until I got into the kink scene, which in my experience has been very body positive and accepting (and appreciating) of all shapes and sizes. And the people who expressed appreciation of/for my body came in all shapes and sizes (and genders) as well. It literally (in the true meaning of the word) changed my life.
What you are describing has been my observations as well in the swinging community.

Many women who are not what would be considered classically "hot" have found acceptance and appreciation in the swinging community.

Some for the first time in their lives have felt desired and embraced and have felt that they can finally let loose their inner sexual beast.

Some have felt that in regular society they were marginalized and and as if there was an undercurrent that told them that they should not be entitled to a vigorous sex life like other people (an example of which was posted above).

Some for the first time in their lives have felt sexy, desired and accepted.

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post #131 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 09:04 AM
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"What you are describing has been my observations as well in the swinging community.

Many women who are not what would be considered classically "hot" have found acceptance and appreciation in the swinging community. "
I say this as a more curvy woman, so there is no insult intended. But the above statement reminded me of when I have heard men say that they like fat women because fat women try harder. So I wonder if one of the reasons a less than model perfect woman is appreciated in certain circles is simply because she is willing to be in those circles in the 1st place.

I think it can depend on region and area as well. For example, if you go to a munch in Germantown Tennessee you will see a different type of person than if you go to a munch in Op Alabama lol
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post #132 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 09:52 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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So I wonder if one of the reasons a less than model perfect woman is appreciated in certain circles is simply because she is willing to be in those circles in the 1st place.
I think that plays into it A LOT.

Hey, in the Land of the Blind the one-eyed man is King, right?

I saw a program on Netflix called "Real Life Wife Swap" (it's a series with 3 different hour-long documentary/shows in it about swinger parties) and could only get past the first two. I'm still queasy and not ready to watch the third. My husband actually came upstairs while I was watching the first show and asked why I was grimacing. I didn't even realize I was.

Gotta be honest - the 'everyday' folks in the two shows I've seen so far are just hideous. They're downright circus ugly. They're British and the ONLY appealing thing about them is their accent. A lot of it is pre-interviews with those planning on attending or those who are hosting the big event, but eventually, they get to the actual party and the body parts start coming out. I honestly need brain bleach before I can even attempt the third and last show in the series.

So yeah, I think for a lot of these much older and/or very unattractive men and women, in their their 'world,' they're the bomb.com. But throw them on Match.com and they'd probably be very, very lonely.

Once you start seeing your worth, you'll find it harder to stay around people who don't.
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post #133 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 10:04 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

In other words....most strippers don't actually look like Demi Moore? lol

My husband believes I am utterly beautiful. But I have no illusions. Put me in between Jessica Alba and Cindy Crawford....and I won't make the top 2
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post #134 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 10:11 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

I couldn't resist, and I started the Netflix series. Within 5 minutes we see the couple's teenage daughter helping get the house ready for the 100 guest swinger party.
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post #135 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 10:30 AM
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Re: 3 things we get wrong about sex,love and monogamy

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but eventually, they get to the actual party and the body parts start coming out. I honestly need brain bleach before I can even attempt the third and last show in the series.
Ugh, I worked in an international book store that carried Scandinavian swingers magazines, I thought I erased those memories, thanks for having them resurface, yuck. (Note, contrary to the stereotype not everyone in Scandinavia is tall, thin, blonde and hot.)




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