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post #31 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 12:31 PM
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There is to be a lot of confusion around a lot of what people are talking about here. Someone mentioned that men who subscribe to MGTOW remove themselves from society. Not true. They remove themselves from committed relationships with women they feel are out to just be taken care of. So they won’t date single moms. So they won’t pay to raise another man’s child. That removes them from society? Hell no it doesn’t.

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post #32 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 12:39 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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There is to be a lot of confusion around a lot of what people are talking about here. Someone mentioned that men who subscribe to MGTOW remove themselves from society. Not true. They remove themselves from committed relationships with women they feel are out to just be taken care of. So they won’t date single moms. So they won’t pay to raise another man’s child. That removes them from society? Hell no it doesn’t.


MGTOW who want to date just to have sex without any long term potential SHOULD make that clear in the beginning of seeing someone.
Therefore women can know where they stand and decide if they just want a FWB relationship or not.
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post #33 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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There is to be a lot of confusion around a lot of what people are talking about here. Someone mentioned that men who subscribe to MGTOW remove themselves from society. Not true. They remove themselves from committed relationships with women they feel are out to just be taken care of. So they won’t date single moms. So they won’t pay to raise another man’s child. That removes them from society? Hell no it doesn’t.


MGTOW who want to date just to have sex without any long term potential SHOULD make that clear in the beginning of seeing someone.
Therefore women can know where they stand and decide if they just want a FWB relationship or not.
Agree with you 100%. However, that was not the point I was trying to make.

For the record, I am on marriage number two. I don’t subscribe to red pill, but I do see a lot of truth in ‘some’ of what they preach. I take some and instill it in my older kids. It’s the kind of talks I wish my dad had with me. Maybe I wouldn’t have married an uneducated, unemployed useless woman at 20.
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post #34 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 12:55 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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Agree with you 100%. However, that was not the point I was trying to make.

For the record, I am on marriage number two. I don’t subscribe to red pill, but I do see a lot of truth in ‘some’ of what they preach. I take some and instill it in my older kids. It’s the kind of talks I wish my dad had with me. Maybe I wouldn’t have married an uneducated, unemployed useless woman at 20.


I get what your saying. To me, red pill blue pill Is just BS. To me it’s common sense and it apples to both genders.
There is a certain type of women men need to watch out for. And there is a certain type of man women need to watch out for. There may be common themes among the genders... women wanting security and using their looks and charm to get it. But women have similar things they need to look out for in men as well... like being controlling and entitled, and only liking them for their looks and sex, and wanting them to be “mothers” to them, or have incredibly impossible expectations.
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post #35 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 12:58 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

@RebuildingMe it seems you have had bad experiences with women and probably have formed some biased and negative opinions on women. I too have had bad experiences with me. And have formed biased and negative opinions of men. My point is.... it’s universal and not gender specific. Men are not having a “crisis” or whatever they are claiming. This is the real world and some people suck and it’s not gender specific.
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post #36 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 01:01 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

Oh and one more thing since I’m on a rant...

I have read a lot of red pill forums. What they define as “high quality women” is incredibly offensive. And it is literally the same thing as women saying a high quality man makes a lot of $$ and blah blah... the fact that they can’t see how contradicting this is blows my mind.
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post #37 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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"Average" vs "median" can get very confusing since the income curve is not at all flat: there are small numbers of very high earners. Also younger people tend to have less income but may date more.
I hadn't considered "mean" vs. "median". But, if average meant "mean" for this study that would make the dating pool look even worse, since most would make less than the $25,000 figure implied by the results of the study

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In some cases I think income may be a stand-in for general success. If a middle-aged man doesn't have a reasonable job, that could raise questions of his general competency at life - and those might go away if it turned out that he had some other competency that didn't produce a large income.
Agree on income standing in for general success. Not sure if a middle aged man can get away with having a crappy salary if he has other talents. What would those other talents be?

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That aside, people have different types of lifestyles that make them happy, and money beyond what is needed for that lifestyle doesn't provide much of an advantage.
Agree that people's desired lifestyle differ. But this brings to mind that study from several years back that said happiness increases up to $75k a year in income (for an individual) because that is the level of income that allows you to meet your needs and a fair number of wants. With that in mind, I can understand why ladies would expect their dates to make only half that.
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post #38 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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There is to be a lot of confusion around a lot of what people are talking about here. Someone mentioned that men who subscribe to MGTOW remove themselves from society. Not true. They remove themselves from committed relationships with women they feel are out to just be taken care of. So they won’t date single moms. So they won’t pay to raise another man’s child. That removes them from society? Hell no it doesn’t.
I think you might be referring to my post. I might have not used the best choice of words but I actually looked around the MGTOW website to gain some insight. I didn't mean to say that men are going off the grid or living on a commune somewhere.

But the website (and others supporting that philosophy) make it clear that the acrimony spreads beyond women to corporate life (jobs / workforce) and the government. And the presumption is that women are out to be taken care of. So, you're avoiding romantic relationships in general, not just single moms.

So, if you're not dating and striving to work as little as possible to not support a system that supposedly is rigged against you, yeah you're checked out of society largely.
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post #39 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 02:57 PM
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"Average" vs "median" can get very confusing since the income curve is not at all flat: there are small numbers of very high earners. Also younger people tend to have less income but may date more.
I hadn't considered "mean" vs. "median". But, if average meant "mean" for this study that would make the dating pool look even worse, since most would make less than the $25,000 figure implied by the results of the study.
I met a destitute man who only made about $500 a year for the last few years. He had the tax documents to prove it. I asked him how he survived and he said, “it ain’t easy!” But he has no problem attracting and impregnating attractive women as he has lots of disposable cash, and the women claim his business makes $150,000 a year. If fact, he moved one baby mama right near the other so he could have easy sexual access to both.

Men who work construction often officially make little or no money.

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Agree on income standing in for general success. Not sure if a middle aged man can get away with having a crappy salary if he has other talents. What would those other talents be?
Broke musicians seem to do quite well with women, even middle-aged. Writers and others can be “successful” at things without making cash. Many Christian women love preachers/pastors. I met a poor car mechanic (aspiring preacher) who married a gorgeous woman while at a conservative religious school.

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post #40 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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As a man in my late 50's and knowing many professional divorced men, I would agree with some of that.

1) Most men feel financially raped by divorce. Even if the split was "equitable", he still lost half his net worth including his retirement. For most men age 50+, their financial future is less rosy than he expected prior to the specter of divorce. Most divorced men no longer have any desire to be the Provider for a future wife. We expect some relative economic parity.

2) Academic degrees aren't so important, but a future Mrs will have fit in with his existing circle. Since we won't be sitting around talking about the newborn baby's diaper problems, she had better be able to hold her own on other topics. I disagree that the lack of a degree would lead to her embarrassing him in front of his friends, but she has to offer some interesting conversation about something.

3) Her adult children do reflect on her, and if we marry then they do reflect on me. To some extent. Everyone needs to be in the same ballpark, with the occasional black sheep excepted.

4) The same religious beliefs is not important to many, but for some it is a big deal.

I would add that older men are looking for a woman with similar interests who is open to new experiences. We are looking for a friend to share our lives together with as a couple. Future marriage in this age range is about having a fun, fulfilling remainder of our lives together, not raising a family or building careers. We have to enjoy a lot of the same things, and we discover new things we enjoy through the other person.

A majority of divorced men over 40 do not have the goal of marriage. This means the woman has to bring more to the table than being sexy, which was a proxy for likely being a good mother of our future kids when we were young with a high libido.
Hmmm, I don't know about some of this.

I certainly didn't feel raped by divorce. I didn't like giving half of what we had to her, but that's not the same thing. The process was fair, I got equal custody of our daughter, and I got a substantial benefit from her (I was between jobs and she had to maintain my insurance until the divorce was final). Also, we both agreed to give up alimony since she had another guy on the hook (which was an idiot move on her part, but I digress).

I've rebuilt my life well and am on track to retire at 62 making more than I do now, with a paid-off home. And I think that's the key to my feelings regarding divorce. I look forward and knew I would rebuild my life to better than what it had been. So I didn't worry about what I had to give her and instead focused on what I would accumulate for myself moving forward. And I was 37 when we split up, definitely not youngster with my whole career in front of me.

And with that life outlook, I'd love to be married again. I would have a prenup, but that would be to protect what I've already accumulated rather than not wanting to share what I make in the future. On a philosophical level, I don't believe I should expect to share in whatever my future partner accumulated prior to our relationship, and vice versa.

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post #41 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 03:42 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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I've rebuilt my life well and am on track to retire at 62 making more than I do now, with a paid-off home. And I think that's the key to my feelings regarding divorce. I look forward and knew I would rebuild my life to better than what it had been. So I didn't worry about what I had to give her and instead focused on what I would accumulate for myself moving forward. And I was 37 when we split up, definitely not youngster with my whole career in front of me.

And with that life outlook, I'd love to be married again. I would have a prenup, but that would be to protect what I've already accumulated rather than not wanting to share what I make in the future. On a philosophical level, I don't believe I should expect to share in whatever my future partner accumulated prior to our relationship, and vice versa.
Mid 30's is not nearly the same as mid 50's or mid 60's. Your timeline to recoup retirement savings is much much better when younger. Losing half of my retirement savings massively hurt my retirement lifestyle. Though to be honest a big part of our split was due to her lack of concern about retirement savings, so I may be better off financially without her. But in theory, for those of us over 50 it is likely the man will lose a lot of his retirement lifestyle to divorce. Spousal support and forking over half the 401k hits very many 50+ yr old men who get divorced. Younger generations are more likely to have a wife who earns substantially, and with a shorter marriage there is much less likelihood of lifetime alimony.

If you're still single 20+ years after a divorce in your mid 30's, you may have a very nice nest egg which the man who divorced in his mid 50's wouldn't because he lost half of it just now.

As to the prenup, no argument there! Prenups in second marriages are far more common than not, at least around here, precisely to protect assets brought into the marriage in case of divorce.

However, estate planning is vital as well. If there is no divorce in the second marriage, at some point one and then the other spouse will die. The original assets should be protected for the children of the first marriages, and then some agreeable splitting of joint assets gained during the second marriage. I highly endorse the use of trusts for all of this!
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post #42 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 04:51 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

I was picturing someone who never set money as a goal, and is happy to live a an extremely modest life style. There are probably artists who are actually talented, but don't make much money. (there are of course also useless loosers who call themselves "artists".). There are various exotic jobs - I know one guy who has spent a lot of his life working winters in Antarctica. I doubt he makes much money, but has very valuable skills and a place to live. There may be people who have chosen to live mostly off the grid and have small farms etc to provide most of what they need.

In general though, competent people usually have a least an OK income.



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I hadn't considered "mean" vs. "median". But, if average meant "mean" for this study that would make the dating pool look even worse, since most would make less than the $25,000 figure implied by the results of the study



Agree on income standing in for general success. Not sure if a middle aged man can get away with having a crappy salary if he has other talents. What would those other talents be?



Agree that people's desired lifestyle differ. But this brings to mind that study from several years back that said happiness increases up to $75k a year in income (for an individual) because that is the level of income that allows you to meet your needs and a fair number of wants. With that in mind, I can understand why ladies would expect their dates to make only half that.
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post #43 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 04:54 PM
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

To me the whole "high quality men / women" seems a strange concept. Different people are looking for different things in a partner. I'm sure the type of woman I like is quite different form what some other men like. This to me is the basic problem with any of the "ladder theory" stuff - its not a ladder - its a great field of options, where everyone has different preferences.



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Oh and one more thing since I’m on a rant...

I have read a lot of red pill forums. What they define as “high quality women” is incredibly offensive. And it is literally the same thing as women saying a high quality man makes a lot of $$ and blah blah... the fact that they can’t see how contradicting this is blows my mind.
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post #44 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 08:17 PM
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https://youtu.be/f9t7t0gBVlg

This guy’s theory is that guys are becoming incels because of social media. Instead of a college boy competing with guys in her social circle, they now compete with all the guys in her area. She can date a 30 yo guy making $90,000, so why date a 20 yo college guy her age who has nothing?

But that 20 yo girl isn’t dating a 30 yo guy. About 35-40% of college students are now virgins, with only a slightly higher percentage for males than females. So, no, the girls are not dating richer, superior men so much as they are not dating anyone at all... just like the boys.

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post #45 of 135 (permalink) Old 09-16-2019, 01:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What is Economically Attractive?

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Mid 30's is not nearly the same as mid 50's or mid 60's. Your timeline to recoup retirement savings is much much better when younger. Losing half of my retirement savings massively hurt my retirement lifestyle. Though to be honest a big part of our split was due to her lack of concern about retirement savings, so I may be better off financially without her. But in theory, for those of us over 50 it is likely the man will lose a lot of his retirement lifestyle to divorce. Spousal support and forking over half the 401k hits very many 50+ yr old men who get divorced. Younger generations are more likely to have a wife who earns substantially, and with a shorter marriage there is much less likelihood of lifetime alimony.

If you're still single 20+ years after a divorce in your mid 30's, you may have a very nice nest egg which the man who divorced in his mid 50's wouldn't because he lost half of it just now.

As to the prenup, no argument there! Prenups in second marriages are far more common than not, at least around here, precisely to protect assets brought into the marriage in case of divorce.

However, estate planning is vital as well. If there is no divorce in the second marriage, at some point one and then the other spouse will die. The original assets should be protected for the children of the first marriages, and then some agreeable splitting of joint assets gained during the second marriage. I highly endorse the use of trusts for all of this!
Agree with much of this. But personally, even I divorced later in life I'd still go out and try to make that connection. I don't need a partner to be content (and indeed I've spent most of the time since my marriage ended as an available man) but I do prefer having that special someone.

Also, the woman is losing just as much as the guy in a divorce. She also has to pay for her own place / own life out of a smaller asset base. If it was a situation where she's living a much better lifestyle than me post-divorce because of a skewed asset distribution, then yeah I'd feel raped and bitter. But otherwise, just accept your lumps and move on.

It's important to note that (as far as I know, anyways) spousal and child support does not bring the lower earning spouse to parity with the higher earning spouse. For instance, my ex makes around $50k and I make over $100k. If she asked for child support per the established formula she would get less than $500 per month with 50/50 custody. It's not like she'd be living large on my dime, so why would I feel bad or be bent out of shape?

Totally agree on the prenup, and I already have the trust (containing my home and current bank accounts) with my daughter as the beneficiary. Any future spouse would get what we accumulate together plus any retirement survivor's benefits and life insurance (assuming I pass before she does). That's likely to be a big chunk of assets, and a lady who complains about it not being enough is not the right person for me.
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