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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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I'm wondering if your wife is on birth control pills or any form of birth control that deliver the same types of hormones as the pills? Those hormones kill a woman's sex drive, so that might explain things.

I'm also wondering if she enjoys having sex. I know you try to please her, and I know she told you that she orgasms, but there's more involved. Sometimes (a lot of times, actually) women orgasm by a certain way, but they don't enjoy the other aspects of the session (I'll explain what I mean if you want me to). So, I'm wondering how does she behave during intercourse? Is it during intercourse that she orgasms, or does she orgasm before intercourse? I think "I don't like change" is just an excuse. We women formulate all kinds of excuses to avoid doing what we don't want to do. But generally, people don't avoid doing what they enjoy doing. I'm going to ask you to read my response here and apply those techniques the next time you and she have sex. I don't know if you need this, so it's only a suggestion. Try it and see if you notice a difference in the way she responds and if she becomes more willing to increase the frequency. Tweak the methods according to her responses and her preferences.

I would say you are pressuring her too much. Where sex is concerned, women don't like to feel pressured into it. The more you talk about it, the more you think you can do things to make her want to have sex, the more you flirt with her, the more you want her to go to marriage counseling, all these things you are doing to get her to have sex with you more often, she knows that is your motive, and she doesn't appreciate you pressuring her like that. Even if she wanted to have sex more often, you pressuring her is only turning her off and making her more repulsed by the idea of sex with you. And you're making yourself disgusting to her.

I really wouldn't like some of the things you say. It appears you have the wrong attitude about marriage and your wife. One is that you have changed, and so you expect her to change. You want more, so you expect her to give it to you. You have been "shaking things up" and trying to make her go along with your new program. She doesn't like change, but you keep trying to make her change. I really think you have the wrong attitude. Stop thinking you can earn sex. You can't think it a good idea to buy sex from your wife. She's not a prostitute. And stop thinking she owes it to you to change. This is your thing. Not hers and it doesn't have to be hers.

But I do think you have a very healthy attitude as far as pleasing her and wanting her to be happy (but if it's just so you can get sex, then it's not a healthy attitude.) You think of her happiness and do things to make her happy (just stop thinking that doing the dishes is for HER because it's really for you. You can't buy a lawnmower and a drill and call them her birthday present). She should feel the same about you and do the same for you. I'm not saying she's terrible if she doesn't. I'm just saying both parties should understand that each other and the relationship should be their first priority, and they have to nurture it. She doesn't know that, so she needs to learn it. But you can't be the one to teach her or discuss with her. It has to come from someone else.

I have heard of some guys (only a few, so don't get your hopes up) having success after their wife reads this site, The Forgiven Wife. The site is Christian-based and I don't know if your wife is a religious woman, but the concepts are universal. There are lots of articles and resources, so there may be something that appeals to your wife's heart. It's certainly worth a try. But since you know she doesn't like talking about sex, do not try to discuss this site with her. When you present it to her, say something like "I'm not trying to pressure you. I want to strengthen our bond as a married couple and have a stronger connection. I will do what you need me to do to make you feel loved, so please tell me what I can do. For me to feel loved, I am asking you to read this blog site." Whatever you say, please say it to her gently and lovingly.
Thank you for the good words. Will take this into consideration. Can’t force someone to love you. That’s just hard for me to grind into my head...

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Just so you know, the marriage counselor you selected is terrible. I know you had no way of knowing that. It was stupid of him to get her in his office wanting her to start talking about sex right off the bat like that. He should have better methods than that, such as teaching the concepts of marriage, helping each partner understand the importance of strengthening the marriage, and teaching them how to create a closer connection and loving bond. But no, the first time she's in his office with you, and he tries to make her talk about sex. Just the dumbest thing I ever heard. I suspect it's what you have been complaining to him about, so, being a man and all, he set out to get you what you want. Again, just the dumbest thing I ever heard. He's not a marriage counselor. Anyone with the proper credentials to be a marriage counselor would not have done that. It also tells me he has no idea of how these things work. If he were a legitimate marriage counselor, he would be familiar with your situation and know how to handle it. But no, he's just a counselor who decided to claim he knows how to counsel married couples. It's not the same. Individual counselors usually make for terrible marriage counselors because they try to counsel couples in the same manner they counsel individuals, but that's not the way it goes.

Your wife knew not to go back to him, and she was wise to refuse. Please don't ask her again. In fact, if you want to earn points in respect from your wife, you will apologize to her for him being so awful. You should stop going to him too. If you want to continue counseling, please find someone else.

There was way more to our sessions than just this. He barely touched the surface in asking about sex and it was not on the first session. He danced around the topic trying to feel her out and didn’t get anywhere. That’s the short version.
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 01:49 PM
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Re: Hi new member

HG:

Your problem is twofold, and they both fall squarely on your shoulders.

One, you are operating under a flawed premise of giving to get.

Two, you believe that increasing the thermostat of your relationship will improve things.

When you combine the two, it is a perfect recipe for nasty resentment...which you are seeing first hand.

I would suggest you do the opposite in both accounts.

Give only because you want to, and only when you want to, with no expectation of a return.

Then, lower the thermostat. Do less for her. No rose petals. No grandiose gestures. Some nights when she needs to vent or needs an act of service, tell her, "No. I don't feel like it tonight." Be out more. Take two or three nights a week and go pursue your hobbies. Find your happiness away from your wife.

This will not get your wife to "step up". I don't know that there is anything that can lead to that. But it will at least lead to reducing your resentment towards her.

In some cases, your reduction of the marital thermostat can lead to improvement from the other spouse...but it is rare...and it should be more of an unintended consequence rather than the main intention.

Lastly, you need to accept that this is who she is. If you can't accept that, do both of yourselves a favor and end the marriage.



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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 03:09 PM
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Re: Hi new member

Quote:
Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
HG:

Your problem is twofold, and they both fall squarely on your shoulders.

One, you are operating under a flawed premise of giving to get.

Two, you believe that increasing the thermostat of your relationship will improve things.

When you combine the two, it is a perfect recipe for nasty resentment...which you are seeing first hand.

I would suggest you do the opposite in both accounts.

Give only because you want to, and only when you want to, with no expectation of a return.

Then, lower the thermostat. Do less for her. No rose petals. No grandiose gestures. Some nights when she needs to vent or needs an act of service, tell her, "No. I don't feel like it tonight." Be out more. Take two or three nights a week and go pursue your hobbies. Find your happiness away from your wife.

This will not get your wife to "step up". I don't know that there is anything that can lead to that. But it will at least lead to reducing your resentment towards her.

In some cases, your reduction of the marital thermostat can lead to improvement from the other spouse...but it is rare...and it should be more of an unintended consequence rather than the main intention.

Lastly, you need to accept that this is who she is. If you can't accept that, do both of yourselves a favor and end the marriage.




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Everything Farsidejunky said is great. Especially the bolded part. It took me a long time to accept my wife for who she is. After that it took me long time to accept me for who I was. It only took a couple of months to realize that my wife and I were not compatible. Then we looked at the end of our marriage and contemplated dissolving it. At that point my wife suddenly became interested in marriage counseling, but I was done and told her that ship had sailed.

I have already shared to much, my wife does not really like me to share the details, but I will tell you that looking at the end of our marriage was the spark that started her changing.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 03:45 PM
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Re: Hi new member

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Thank you for the good words. Will take this into consideration. Can’t force someone to love you. That’s just hard for me to grind into my head...
You took my words out of context, and it's possible, if not probable, you take your wife's feelings out of context too. Not having sex with you more often does not mean she doesn't love you. That seems to be the way a lot of men think of it, but it's unfair to her to sum her feelings up like that. The situation with her is not nearly so neatly or so tragically summed up.

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Originally Posted by HonestGuy84 View Post
There was way more to our sessions than just this. He barely touched the surface in asking about sex and it was not on the first session. He danced around the topic trying to feel her out and didn’t get anywhere. That’s the short version.
I thought you said she saw him by herself first and then the session you described was the first session with you, right?

But my point was that he was trying to get her to talk about sex. Beating around the bush about it is the same thing, and she knew what he was aiming at. People have a tendency to think others are too stupid to know what they are up to, but he's not slick as he thinks, and I'm not going to assume your wife is stupid. You're telling me he danced around the topic. Well, you knew what he was doing - dancing around the topic of sex and trying to get her to participate. Your wife knew what he was doing too. So my point stands if you will try to receive it.

You're being very closed-minded.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
HG:

Your problem is twofold, and they both fall squarely on your shoulders.

One, you are operating under a flawed premise of giving to get.

Two, you believe that increasing the thermostat of your relationship will improve things.

When you combine the two, it is a perfect recipe for nasty resentment...which you are seeing first hand.

I would suggest you do the opposite in both accounts.

Give only because you want to, and only when you want to, with no expectation of a return.

Then, lower the thermostat. Do less for her. No rose petals. No grandiose gestures. Some nights when she needs to vent or needs an act of service, tell her, "No. I don't feel like it tonight." Be out more. Take two or three nights a week and go pursue your hobbies. Find your happiness away from your wife.

This will not get your wife to "step up". I don't know that there is anything that can lead to that. But it will at least lead to reducing your resentment towards her.

In some cases, your reduction of the marital thermostat can lead to improvement from the other spouse...but it is rare...and it should be more of an unintended consequence rather than the main intention.

Lastly, you need to accept that this is who she is. If you can't accept that, do both of yourselves a favor and end the marriage.



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I have something similar written in my notes to try and accomplish. To try and start doing less. Love the tip about getting out. Will do my best to try and plan more of this to help me not think of things. Get back to the old me. The me I can remember.
Just so hard to think that she wouldn’t like this me more. But mission failed...
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 08:53 PM
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Re: Hi new member

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I know that this sounds really mean. but at the end of the day perhaps you could approach her with the possibility of having your needs met outside the relationship since she is not interested.
Perhaps then she will realize that you are very serious about wanting to connect emotionally (physically) with her.

Not the most popular thought, but in the long run may be one of the only answers vs divorce.
Threatening her with cheating is a terrible idea. IT will make things far worse.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 09:36 PM
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Re: Hi new member

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Threatening her with cheating is a terrible idea. IT will make things far worse.
Read it again. Im suggesting an open relationship. Not cheating.
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 08:47 AM
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Re: Hi new member

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Originally Posted by HonestGuy84 View Post
I have something similar written in my notes to try and accomplish. To try and start doing less. Love the tip about getting out. Will do my best to try and plan more of this to help me not think of things. Get back to the old me. The me I can remember.
Just so hard to think that she wouldn’t like this me more. But mission failed...
You changed things for the wrong person.

Stop doing things for her.

Start doing things for you.

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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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Re: Hi new member

What I wrote before - whether she's on the pill (or other medication), that you might need to step up your game in the bedroom, and that you need to stop pressuring her - all of those still apply. But I've come across an article on that site I linked in my last post. In the past, I read a couple posts written by the author of the site, but I never delved into much more because the premise of the site doesn't apply to me. I read some others today and I think this article may help your wife understand herself better and understand you better. Like I said, the things she needs to hear can't come from you, so maybe the articles on that site will give her the message you hope to convey. I hope it helps. Of course, I don't know how you will get her to read them, but good luck.

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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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What I wrote before - whether she's on the pill (or other medication), that you might need to step up your game in the bedroom, and that you need to stop pressuring her - all of those still apply. But I've come across an article on that site I linked in my last post. In the past, I read a couple posts written by the author of the site, but I never delved into much more because the premise of the site doesn't apply to me. I read some others today and I think this article may help your wife understand herself better and understand you better. Like I said, the things she needs to hear can't come from you, so maybe the articles on that site will give her the message you hope to convey. I hope it helps. Of course, I don't know how you will get her to read them, but good luck.
You hit the nail on the head. Was thinking “how do I get her to read it?” Right when you said it in the last line. I know she wants to work things out but she hasn’t accepted that I want to be more aware of our love and love each other more in and out of the bedroom.

She said last night- I asked her how do I turn you on? What turns you on? Her response. “I don’t know. I just wake up and want sex that day.” I found this to be extremely difficult. I find that there is nothing I can do to make her feel sexy or turned on. This is really hard to accept and makes me feel like crap.
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 03:41 PM
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Re: Hi new member

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You hit the nail on the head. Was thinking “how do I get her to read it?” Right when you said it in the last line. I know she wants to work things out but she hasn’t accepted that I want to be more aware of our love and love each other more in and out of the bedroom.

She said last night- I asked her how do I turn you on? What turns you on? Her response. “I don’t know. I just wake up and want sex that day.” I found this to be extremely difficult. I find that there is nothing I can do to make her feel sexy or turned on. This is really hard to accept and makes me feel like crap.
First of all, I want you to know it isn't personal. It's actually very common. So it's not something to make you feel like crap although I understand you're asking for her help but she can't help you.

I don't know if you saw my thread here, where I ask for suggestions for subtle ways to initiate sex with my husband. I'm not like your wife in that I don't want to have sex more frequently. It's that I'm not comfortable initiating. Another lady responded who is just like me.

So some of us have some hangups. And some of us just aren't familiar enough with our bodies and sexual selves to know what turns us on or what we need to feel good. We don't know those things until they happen to us. And there's the segment of us who do know those things but are too afraid to express them openly. Like me and that other lady who responded in my thread. We know what we want and we know what we like. But when it comes to initiating, for each of our individual reasons, we're just to inhibited to do it.

See how weird we women are? It really doesn't have anything to do with you although it must be o very frustrating trying to learn what turns your wife on since she's not able to tell you. I've been saying these things for a long time, and all I've gotten from people on this board is a lot of arguments and negative push back. But here you are telling us about wife being exactly that way.

Where you are concerned, you have to learn these things and have to become more skilled without her assistance. As I said before, people don't avoid what they like doing. That's the reason I linked you to my response from another thread of this nature, and I also think that instead of marriage counseling, you could benefit from sex therapy. There are sex therapists and there are some marriage counselors who are also certified in sex therapy. See if you can find one. They would be more adept than this jerk you've been seeing at getting your wife to open up, as well as to help you both discover what turns her on and what could rock her world during sex. Even if you have to go alone, find one and go.
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 05:46 PM
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Re: Hi new member

There is much merit to what @StarFires is saying. Also, the underlying message of not taking it personal is crucial, no matter what you choose to do (and no matter how hard it may be).

It also assumes that you should have both the want and the ability to be emotionally dominant. In other words, you have to be able to do this without getting frustrated, without taking it personally, be willing to keep trying different things because your wife may not have the want or ability to try and figure it out on her own, and simply being willing to lead it...no matter how difficult it (she) may be.

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to try that way first.

I would tell you that I tried it that way for somewhere around six months. With my wife, it didn't work.

She simply moved the goalposts.

Or just became stubborn.

Or contradicted her words and her actions.

Or...

Or...

Or...

And so on...

At that point, I made a decision. I would no longer be interested nor willing to manage a difficult sub. She could either step up and be a partner with me, or she could become a partner with somebody else.

That is when I reduced the thermostat.

Interestingly enough, it is exactly what led to her stepping up.

The emotionally dominant route has worked for several posters on this site. Maybe give it a spin...and be willing to give it a few months to afford it an opportunity to work.

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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
There is much merit to what @StarFires is saying. Also, the underlying message of not taking it personal is crucial, no matter what you choose to do (and no matter how hard it may be).

It also assumes that you should have both the want and the ability to be emotionally dominant. In other words, you have to be able to do this without getting frustrated, without taking it personally, be willing to keep trying different things because your wife may not have the want or ability to try and figure it out on her own, and simply being willing to lead it...no matter how difficult it (she) may be.

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to try that way first.

I would tell you that I tried it that way for somewhere around six months. With my wife, it didn't work.

She simply moved the goalposts.

Or just became stubborn.

Or contradicted her words and her actions.

Or...

Or...

Or...

And so on...

At that point, I made a decision. I would no longer be interested nor willing to manage a difficult sub. She could either step up and be a partner with me, or she could become a partner with somebody else.

That is when I reduced the thermostat.

Interestingly enough, it is exactly what led to her stepping up.

The emotionally dominant route has worked for several posters on this site. Maybe give it a spin...and be willing to give it a few months to afford it an opportunity to work.

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I believe this is the point I am at. I have given it two days so far. Was even rewarded last night by he telling me that “you were really good today”. Or something like that. So I’m trying everything and I am to the point to taking everything down. I have not intentionally touched her In 36 hours which is way out of character for me. Not sure she has noticed but she has asked if I’m “OK” twice today. So not sure where she is at. But not having sex for 12 days is not acceptable for me. She has been on period for the ladder part but still. Been really hard and I voiced that a couple nights ago that her period week is especially hard on me. She can’t get past the point that I have changed. She is stuck on “its never been hard for you before”.
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 06:31 PM
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Re: Hi new member

I don't quite understand the fundamental principle behind your last post. What exactly does all of that indicate to you?

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