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post #106 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 04:10 PM
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i have been a paid member of a MGTOW forum for several years now. i can tell you that they absolutely hate incels. they dont tolerate them at all.
Doesn't surprise me at all. MGTOW have used their power to make their own decisions....nothing wrong with that.

Incels are pathetic losers who abdicate their power and blame everything on evil wimmenz.....very weak.

I can see how men who use their power to control their own lives dislike weak victim men.
Only I think MGTOWs do blame women and society for empowering them. But agree with everything else you said.

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post #107 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 04:16 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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Only I think MGTOWs do blame women and society for empowering them. But agree with everything else you said.
Yeah, you're probably right about that.
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post #108 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 05:21 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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Only I think MGTOWs do blame women and society for empowering them. But agree with everything else you said.
Some MGTOW guys, along with their red pill cousins, somehow think that women are this ultra-secret powerful divine sisterhood that keeps all men under control with social norms that benefit only women, laws that benefit only women, and that women are somehow indoctrinated and taught to leverage their sexuality and sexual gatekeeping as a cabal.

I've known red pill guys that literally believe that women are a secret society that have ensured that men live a lie all of their life so women get whatever they want for free forever, for example. Basically, men are the underclass victim servant class subordinate to women, and always have been. We only exist to buy them things (if we're 'nice guys), or bone (if we're musclebound bad boys). Otherwise, we don't serve a purpose at all except as playthings.

The lie - and where "red pill" comes from - is that men are in charge and that male privilege is a thing. They assert the opposite is actually true, and reality is the inverse of that: women are actually in control of everything, especially relationships, money, and sex, and that they have concocted this while feminism thing as a cover for this secret reality. If you 'swallow the red pill', as I did, you will wake up in a way that's akin to Morpheous (Athol Kay) giving you the ability to 'wake up' from the illusion and see the reality for what it is - like Neo did in the Matrix, and became the saviour of mankind.

That's literally where much of this comes from. One guy, named Athol Kay, that discovered that his wife actually liked to have sex with him more when he acted more macho. Using that divine revelation, he decided that women are lying to men (and sometimes themselves) when they say they want to be with a man that treats him well, and really only want to be with a man that treats her like dirt and takes her to 'pound town.' His literal term for sex that women actually like, which is quite different than what they often say they want. He actually also asserted to me once that women need to have semen inside of them, because it gives them a testosterone boost that they sorely need to be healthy and have a good libido. So you need to **** a woman relentlessly so that she'll have a sex drive. But then you need to be careful, because she might go after a more dominant male than you. I did the math on this once, and told him he was full of **** because the amount was so minute, but he was a nurse and that made me wrong.

At any rate, women only keep the 'nice guy' around to pay for everything, do everything, and provide her with a pedestal to sit on while they pine for, or cheat with the neanderthal that takes her to said 'pound town.'

This morphed into the PUA (Pick Up Artist) movement that ran with these ideas to come up with 'negging' (to insult a woman to assert your dominance and get her panties to somehow drop) and other bizarre concoctions mixed in with 'be confident even when you don't feel like it' which actually can be very successful.

It also morphed into the MGTOW movement, which took all of that, and said 'FU Chads and Staceys, I'm outta here.' These guys essentially don't want to take a risk, are deeply concerned about money grubbing women taking their stuff, and claim to have just checked out of the whole game. Which would be fine if they would just be quiet about it.

Sorry for the rant. This whole thing deeply pisses me off, mostly because I was a red pill guy and that disgusts me, and I used to know the aforementioned Kay/Morpheous fairly well.

Last edited by Marduk; 01-17-2020 at 05:30 PM.
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post #109 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 05:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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Some MGTOW guys, along with their red pill cousins, somehow think that women are this ultra-secret powerful divine sisterhood
@Marduk, thank you for this post! I find it very well thought out and informative - probably better and more succinct than anything else I've read on the topic.

I have only been a bit curious about this whole "movement," but am concerned that there are some incels who are so disillusioned that they can - and sometimes have - resort to violence, rape, and murder.

Love is an ideal thing; marriage is a real thing; a confusion of the real with the ideal never goes unpunished. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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post #110 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 05:42 PM
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Officials in Texas are warning of an upcoming “Incel Rebellion” in a new report titiled “Texas Domestic Terrorism Threat Assessment.”

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...rorism-threat/

What do you think?
While the people who go on about being an Incel are probably more harmess, large numbers of sexually fustrated men are dangerous for society and it will have consequences. The swollen gonal theory of imperial expansion is that going abroad and building an Empire was one way the excess was dealt with.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/10/20...l-frustration/
The problem with all of these movements and any suppos'd evidence that it's dangerous for a societee when men don't get sex is the underlying implication that men are entitled to 6 and women should just go ahead and give it to them. Sorry, nope.
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post #111 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 05:53 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

@Marduk You did a really nice job of breaking all of that down.

The problem with the whole Red Pill thing is that his whole theory (and some parts)actually is true for a subset of the population. Yes, there are some women who take advantage of "nice guys" (and their wallets), some women prefer pound-town sex, there are men who have been screwed over in divorces by the system, etc. There is a little bit of truth in his theory, in that there will be somewhere at least one man or women that it actually applies to, because humans are a very diverse species in all manners of speaking, in their behavior, in their preferences.

But he takes this wide brush, and says, my theory is true for EVERYONE, when it simply isn't. He asserts that his entire theory is universally applicable, when NONE of his theory is universally applicable. But just enough of it is applicable to a certain subset of men that they buy into the whole ideology.

When you start treating people as a stereotyped instead of an individual, you lose your ability to relate and create a connection, and you begin to lose your humanity. With each anti-interaction, you lose a little more and a little more.

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post #112 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 05:54 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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The problem with all of these movements and any suppos'd evidence that it's dangerous for a societee when men don't get sex is the underlying implication that men are entitled to 6 and women should just go ahead and give it to them. Sorry, nope.
That's a non-sequitur. That it may in fact be objectively dangerous does not prescribe a specific solution.

We could decide to do many things in response to "it's dangerous".

We could do nothing, as we are doing now, and live with the occasional violent outburst.
We could create our own version of comfort women, as you fear.
We could castrate all men who cannot prove they have access to a sex partner.
We could underwrite the prostitution industry.

You need food to live. Am I obligated to give it to you?
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post #113 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 05:57 PM
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Only I think MGTOWs do blame women and society for empowering them. But agree with everything else you said.
Some MGTOW guys, along with their red pill cousins, somehow think that women are this ultra-secret powerful divine sisterhood that keeps all men under control with social norms that benefit only women, laws that benefit only women, and that women are somehow indoctrinated and taught to leverage their sexuality and sexual gatekeeping as a cabal.

I've known red pill guys that literally believe that women are a secret society that have ensured that men live a lie all of their life so women get whatever they want for free forever, for example. Basically, men are the underclass victim servant class subordinate to women, and always have been. We only exist to buy them things (if we're 'nice guys), or bone (if we're musclebound bad boys). Otherwise, we don't serve a purpose at all except as playthings.

The lie - and where "red pill" comes from - is that men are in charge and that male privilege is a thing. They assert the opposite is actually true, and reality is the inverse of that: women are actually in control of everything, especially relationships, money, and sex, and that they have concocted this while feminism thing as a cover for this secret reality. If you 'swallow the red pill', as I did, you will wake up in a way that's akin to Morpheous (Athol Kay) giving you the ability to 'wake up' from the illusion and see the reality for what it is - like Neo did in the Matrix, and became the saviour of mankind.

That's literally where much of this comes from. One guy, named Athol Kay, that discovered that his wife actually liked to have sex with him more when he acted more macho. Using that divine revelation, he decided that women are lying to men (and sometimes themselves) when they say they want to be with a man that treats him well, and really only want to be with a man that treats her like dirt and takes her to 'pound town.' His literal term for sex that women actually like, which is quite different than what they often say they want. He actually also asserted to me once that women need to have semen inside of them, because it gives them a testosterone boost that they sorely need to be healthy and have a good libido. So you need to **** a woman relentlessly so that she'll have a sex drive. But then you need to be careful, because she might go after a more dominant male than you. I did the math on this once, and told him he was full of **** because the amount was so minute, but he was a nurse and that made me wrong.

At any rate, women only keep the 'nice guy' around to pay for everything, do everything, and provide her with a pedestal to sit on while they pine for, or cheat with the neanderthal that takes her to said 'pound town.'

This morphed into the PUA (Pick Up Artist) movement that ran with these ideas to come up with 'negging' (to insult a woman to assert your dominance and get her panties to somehow drop) and other bizarre concoctions mixed in with 'be confident even when you don't feel like it' which actually can be very successful.

It also morphed into the MGTOW movement, which took all of that, and said 'FU Chads and Staceys, I'm outta here.' These guys essentially don't want to take a risk, are deeply concerned about money grubbing women taking their stuff, and claim to have just checked out of the whole game. Which would be fine if they would just be quiet about it.

Sorry for the rant. This whole thing deeply pisses me off, mostly because I was a red pill guy and that disgusts me, and I used to know the aforementioned Kay/Morpheous fairly well.
There is some wisdom in what they talk about and I can't argue too much with the results. Some of it may have its roots in evolution, who knows. Its certainly spoke to me after my divorce and I ran with it for awhile. I think that's how most find it. I followed the whole Rational Male and its offshoots... I think Athol came after Rollo so not sure I'd label him Morpheus. It's all somewhat interesting but also completely devoid of meaning. I took what I needed and left the rest.

After awhile it's just too much negativity in your life. You just get sucked into this swirl of hatred that binds you. Better to free yourself of that hate and better yourself in more positive ways...one that doesn't involve focusing on the opposite sex as good or bad. Same can be said for modern day feminism and any of these reverse red pill philosophies. They do nothing but create dissention.
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post #114 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 06:00 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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@Marduk, thank you for this post! I find it very well thought out and informative - probably better and more succinct than anything else I've read on the topic.

I have only been a bit curious about this whole "movement," but am concerned that there are some incels who are so disillusioned that they can - and sometimes have - resort to violence, rape, and murder.
It’s not disillusionment.

It’s entitlement, narcissism, pretending to be the victim, and dehumanization of women.

Women, to these guys, are playthings with delusions of grandeur. ‘Evolutionary biology’ or ‘God’ has designed them to be things to be used, but they’ve somehow become dominant through their sexuality and by pretending to be the victim.

Therefore, to them, is it not only ok to use them as men want, but it’s the right thing to do. And, they think they secretly like to be used, even traumatically without their consent!

It’s also why I have such a big problem with Trump. He’s a classic red pill guy. Consider quotes like:

"It is a very scary time for young men in America, where you can be guilty of something you may not be guilty of. … Women are doing great." Trump, oct 2018

"Women have one of the great acts of all time. The smart ones act very feminine and needy, but inside they are real killers. The person who came up with the expression 'the weaker sex' was either very naive or had to be kidding. I have seen women manipulate men with just a twitch of their eye — or perhaps another body part." - Trump, 1997

Rape culture writ large and in charge.

Sorry to make it political, but there it is.
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post #115 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 06:34 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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@Marduk You did a really nice job of breaking all of that down.

The problem with the whole Red Pill thing is that his whole theory (and some parts)actually is true for a subset of the population. Yes, there are some women who take advantage of "nice guys" (and their wallets), some women prefer pound-town sex, there are men who have been screwed over in divorces by the system, etc. There is a little bit of truth in his theory, in that there will be somewhere at least one man or women that it actually applies to, because humans are a very diverse species in all manners of speaking, in their behavior, in their preferences.
Totally agree. I can’t remember the quote, but it was from someone in counterintelligence, and went something like ‘the best way to sell a lie is with the truth.’

So, yes, lots of this red pill or PUA stuff actually works. To a disturbingly large extent.

It’s also why people feel free to extend it way too far, and do some very dangerous things.

Quote:
But he takes this wide brush, and says, my theory is true for EVERYONE, when it simply isn't. He asserts that his entire theory is universally applicable, when NONE of his theory is universally applicable. But just enough of it is applicable to a certain subset of men that they buy into the whole ideology.
Kay literally once told me something to the extent of “if a woman says she doesn’t want to be dominated and have rough sex, she’s either lying or doesn’t know that she actually wants it because she’s never had it.”

Quote:
When you start treating people as a stereotyped instead of an individual, you lose your ability to relate and create a connection, and you begin to lose your humanity. With each anti-interaction, you lose a little more and a little more.

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Yup. You also get lost in the nonsense, rather than just realizing that confident, expressive, and decisive people are often more attractive than the opposite.

And that’s true for most people, regardless of sex. But not universally. But it’s enough to tip the odds and for guys like this to stack their own misogyny on top of it.

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post #116 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 07:38 PM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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There is some wisdom in what they talk about and I can't argue too much with the results. Some of it may have its roots in evolution, who knows. Its certainly spoke to me after my divorce and I ran with it for awhile. I think that's how most find it. I followed the whole Rational Male and its offshoots... I think Athol came after Rollo so not sure I'd label him Morpheus. It's all somewhat interesting but also completely devoid of meaning. I took what I needed and left the rest.

After awhile it's just too much negativity in your life. You just get sucked into this swirl of hatred that binds you. Better to free yourself of that hate and better yourself in more positive ways...one that doesn't involve focusing on the opposite sex as good or bad. Same can be said for modern day feminism and any of these reverse red pill philosophies. They do nothing but create dissention.
Oh he picked up stuff from the man-o-sphere, no doubt. But he did claim the red pill as his concept, and he did think PUAs were just caught up in women’s sexual games, they were just better at it than most guys.

To him, the highest calling for a man was to be married to a woman that was almost, but very much not quite your equal. He labeled himself Morpheus, at least to me. He very much saw himself that way. As in the rest of us poor neos have it easy, because he had to be the one to break free and show us the way.

He liked the Star Trek captain/first officer model, which got weird with Kirk/Spock homoeroticism. But that was many of this areas weirdnesses.
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post #117 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 10:09 PM
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There is some wisdom in what they talk about and I can't argue too much with the results. Some of it may have its roots in evolution, who knows. Its certainly spoke to me after my divorce and I ran with it for awhile. I think that's how most find it. I followed the whole Rational Male and its offshoots... I think Athol came after Rollo so not sure I'd label him Morpheus. It's all somewhat interesting but also completely devoid of meaning. I took what I needed and left the rest.

After awhile it's just too much negativity in your life. You just get sucked into this swirl of hatred that binds you. Better to free yourself of that hate and better yourself in more positive ways...one that doesn't involve focusing on the opposite sex as good or bad. Same can be said for modern day feminism and any of these reverse red pill philosophies. They do nothing but create dissention.
Oh he picked up stuff from the man-o-sphere, no doubt. But he did claim the red pill as his concept, and he did think PUAs were just caught up in women’s sexual games, they were just better at it than most guys.

To him, the highest calling for a man was to be married to a woman that was almost, but very much not quite your equal. He labeled himself Morpheus, at least to me. He very much saw himself that way. As in the rest of us poor neos have it easy, because he had to be the one to break free and show us the way.

He liked the Star Trek captain/first officer model, which got weird with Kirk/Spock homoeroticism. But that was many of this areas weirdnesses.
It was an entertaining book if nothing else.
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post #118 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-18-2020, 03:01 AM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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The problem with all of these movements and any suppos'd evidence that it's dangerous for a societee when men don't get sex is the underlying implication that men are entitled to 6 and women should just go ahead and give it to them. Sorry, nope.
Indeed.

Young men in general are associated with unrest in society. Sexually fustrated young men are associated even more so and also in more modern societies with the far right.

The difficulty in any discussion is:
- Moral judgement might bring the implication that men deserve women. Clearly not.
- Moral judgement might condemn the men for not being good enough. Clearly not.
- The social stigma of sexual fustration (and certainly fustrated masculinity) makes the association of it with the far right seem to be one dismissing the far right. Clearly not.

Historically, socieities have killed lots of their young men off in wars or put them in monasteries.
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post #119 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-18-2020, 03:17 AM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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There is some wisdom in what they talk about and I can't argue too much with the results. Some of it may have its roots in evolution, who knows. Its certainly spoke to me after my divorce and I ran with it for awhile. I think that's how most find it. I followed the whole Rational Male and its offshoots... I think Athol came after Rollo so not sure I'd label him Morpheus. It's all somewhat interesting but also completely devoid of meaning. I took what I needed and left the rest.

After awhile it's just too much negativity in your life. You just get sucked into this swirl of hatred that binds you. Better to free yourself of that hate and better yourself in more positive ways...one that doesn't involve focusing on the opposite sex as good or bad. Same can be said for modern day feminism and any of these reverse red pill philosophies. They do nothing but create dissention.
There are parts of red pill that I actually like. The comparisons with The Matrix are cringe worthy, but what bothers me is that they have not swalloed the red pill. We are domesticated animals, and they have correctly realised that our domestication is not good for us and not true morality. We should grow out of it. Spirituality would agree.

We are also animals, you will value material things like animals do and want status like animals do, we should see above that as it is not good for us, or true morality either. But that is where the red pill gets stuck.

They were brave enough to recognise the friction between the animal and their domestication, but think that is the end of wisdom and really mind-blowing. It is like the main characters in The Matrix did not try to bring the matrix down, but used their insight to get a nicer house within it.

It is a good and healthy stage to go through and many people do not.

People are full of **** are rarely know themselves well. Those who recognise that have a great career in sales and marketing and will have fun successful relationship lives. But, to use that to be a happy animal is swallowing the blue pill.
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post #120 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-18-2020, 10:36 AM
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Re: Incels: Burgeoning Domestic Terrorists?

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I agree that attitude is most important and definitely something that can be adjusted.

Refusing to put in the effort necessary isn't an excuse.

I wonder if some of these guys just don't attract the hot ladies and ignore all the others they might have a shot at?
I don't think they attract anyone, but I could be wrong.
I have experience on both sides of this issue, so I'm possibly qualified to comment on it reasonably.
In college I was fairly successful with girls even though I'm not conventionally attractive, largely because I had a DGAF attitude, but without knowing that was important.
After college I had long dry spells because I didn't realize how important that attitude is.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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