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post #181 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 07:25 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

Another slightly off-topic data point, not based on Christianity, but on second wives and divorce and somewhat similar to the African cases.

My wife is asian. They have a strong desire to carry on the family name, so want lots of children, especially boys. I don't fully understand it but the society accepts/tolerates second wives for those men rich enough to support them. The bureaucracy even registers the second marriages, so their children can attend school.

I once asked what happens with schooling for illegitimate children, but supposedly they don't happen, everyone marries.

And the wives can definitely divorce for lack of support. The normal case is a wife gets ownership of the house and a guaranteed income before he was allowed to look for a second wife. The social norm seems to be he must get her OK first.

I saw a wife who finally had to admit she knew he had a secret second wife. He had kept her in another suburb, near his business. I gather everyone had known for a while but she had pretended not to know. Finally she couldn't pretend any longer. Proof was easy, she just went to the marriage registry, cheaper than a PI. World War 3 ensued, she was close to divorcing him for years. It seemed the problem was he had lied and not done things the proper way.

My wife saw it as crazy when another guy was chasing a second wife that he couldn't afford. She said he would loose his first wife and their child and the chance to carry on the family name and everyone would laugh at him and then the second wife would leave him. Lust might have driven the guy, but it seems the society views it through the wallet and family responsibilities.

I also heard they are slowly becoming less sexist about this. It is now seen as acceptable for rich women to have boyfriends or second husbands. There are still far fewer rich women than rich men. They have something like a male version of Hooters restaurants for rich women. One women was so rich she even bought an apartment for her boyfriend and had him retire. This was sort of seen as a good thing, she was not behaving badly, she had played by societies rules, I gather her first husband had to accept it.

Now I have to ask my wife what the churches there think of second wives. Most of the churches there are new and struggle with merging Christianity and social norms.

I bet this will be an interesting conversation.
"Why do you ask? Are thinking of a second wife?"
"no honey, it is just academic, honestly"


"Life wasn't meant to be easy;
but take heart, parts of it can be delightful."
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post #182 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 07:29 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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@MJJEAN I totally agree with you. When I posted my responses to the "attack" on me, it was early in the morning. Perhaps I should have waited. That's no excuse.

Having said that, I have been working over time to better who I am. And I have succeeded. I am not there yet and I never will be. But no one who knows me in real life can't say I don't try. I fail, sure. But I try. But maybe I am lying to myself. Cause I'm still in this marriage and I am not where I want to be professionally. If i was where I want to be professionally I would probably be out of the marriage.

Just look at what I wrote... it's all over the place. lmao

BUT I OWN IT. My wife does not. My wife is the one with the problem. Trust me on this.
Marital issues are rarely the fault of one spouse. Usually, it's a bad dynamic. You flew off the handle at something that wasn't even aimed at you, but meant to be part of a discussion on Biblical grounds for divorce. You are or were overly sensitive and seeing persecution where there was none.

My DH can very occasionally do the same when he is "hangry" (hungry with low blood sugar and starting to get loopy) and when he does I want to punch him in the throat. That kind of thing is definitely NOT attractive. My advice is to learn to recognize that kind of thinking BEFORE you say, type, or do anything so that you can prevent it from being a problem for you and those who interact with you.

Back to the topic, we both know that as a Baptized Catholic you were required by the rules of your faith to either marry in the Church or get dispensation to marry elsewhere. You didn't and your marriage is considered invalid. For sure, not even a question.

"In the Sacrament of Marriage, a baptized Christian man exchanges vows with a baptized Christian woman. Before Almighty God, they promise to each other a love that is faithful, permanent, exclusive, self-sacrificing, and life-giving. Through marriage, a couple now enters into a new public state of life both in the eyes of the Church and society; therefore, the celebration of the marriage rightfully ought to be public with the vows exchanged before a priest (or other authorized witness of the Church), the witnesses (usually the Best Man and Maid of Honor), and the faithful gathered for the ceremony (Cf. Catechism, #1663).

Given this basis, a Catholic (either baptized as a Catholic or later entering the Catholic Church after having already been baptized in another Christian denomination) is bound to be married in the Catholic Church. The Church in which one has been baptized and confirmed, receives Holy Communion, and professes faith, ought to be the Church in which one is married. Consequently, whether a Catholic is marrying a Catholic or a baptized non-Catholic Christian or a non-believer, the normal expectation is for the marriage to take place in the Catholic Church.

However, when a Catholic is marrying a baptized non-Catholic Christian, legitimate circumstances may arise when the couple would like to be married in the Church of the non-Catholic. Such circumstances include recognizing a special or long-standing relationship with a minister, or preventing family alienation. In such case, the couple would complete the regular Catholic marriage preparation. The Catholic party would also attest to his intention of not leaving the Catholic Church, and of promising to baptize and to raise the children in the Catholic faith. The non-Catholic party would be informed of these promises, attest to understanding these promises, and in turn promise not to interfere in their fulfillment.

After the preparation and the attainment of these promises, the priest would petition the bishop on behalf of the couple for a "Dispensation from Canonical Form," meaning permission for the couple to be married outside of the Catholic Church. The Church requires a dispensation because the bishop, as shepherd of the diocese and guardian of souls, must insure that the couple is prepared as best as possible for marriage and is ready to enter into Holy Matrimony. With such permission, the wedding is valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

However, if a Catholic enters marriage outside of the Catholic Church without the necessary dispensation, then the marriage is considered invalid and is not recognized by the Church. Moreover, this action places the person in a state of mortal sin. For instance, if a Catholic marrying either another Catholic or anyone else just decides to be married in some other Church or by a Justice of the Peace, that marriage is invalid. While such a marriage may have legal standing in the eyes of the state, it has no legitimate standing in the eyes of the Church." (Confer Code of Canon Law, #1124-25).


source Catholiceducation.org

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #183 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 07:49 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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I understand, but what constitutes a darn good reason?

Who decides that?

Highly subjective.
Just saw this! Sorry to have missed it earlier.

That's what priests, spiritual advisers, and the Catechism are for. If the couple cannot come to an agreement on what constitutes "good reason", they can read the related Catechism passages and/or take the dispute to their priest or spiritual adviser for a determination. Generally, "good reason" is pain, exhaustion, illness, post-adultery, being abused, avoiding unwanted pregnancy (remember, Catholics are supposed to ONLY use Natural Family Planning, so a spouse can say NO! morally if wife is fertile and the spouse wants to avoid possible conception) etc. Basic common sense stuff.

If a spouse has some kind of sexual dysfunction that spouse is obligated to seek treatment in hopes of restoring marital relations.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.

Last edited by MJJEAN; 02-02-2017 at 07:55 PM.
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post #184 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 09:22 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

Here is a question I would like answered.

What if one spouse decides to divorce because the other spouses refuses to uphold their marital vow of sexual relations and love, but then the neglectful spouse says she or he will change? Is the neglected spouse forced to stay in the the marriage?

What if the neglectful spouse doesn't change after that? And what if the neglectful spouse promised to change before but never has? Does this mean each time the neglectful spouse promises to change then the neglected spouse must stay in the marriage?

And what happens when the spouse who is denied sex over and over again falls into immoral sexual temptation due to the years of living in a sexless marriage? Doesn't that spouse owe it to himself to get out of the marriage and find a spouse who will enter into a marriage that includes sex?
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post #185 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:32 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Here is a question I would like answered.

What if one spouse decides to divorce because the other spouses refuses to uphold their marital vow of sexual relations and love, but then the neglectful spouse says she or he will change? Is the neglected spouse forced to stay in the the marriage?

What if the neglectful spouse doesn't change after that? And what if the neglectful spouse promised to change before but never has? Does this mean each time the neglectful spouse promises to change then the neglected spouse must stay in the marriage?

And what happens when the spouse who is denied sex over and over again falls into immoral sexual temptation due to the years of living in a sexless marriage? Doesn't that spouse owe it to himself to get out of the marriage and find a spouse who will enter into a marriage that includes sex?
Speaking as a Catholic here.

According to the faith you profess, you aren't married and never have been married. Any sexual act you engage in is Mortal Sin. Religiously, you are a single man. Legally, you are married. From a legal standpoint, you've committed Adultery. From a religious standpoint, you have committed Fornication. Including, btw, with your wife as any sex she has had with you is pre-marital sex.

Under the rules of your faith, you aren't married and your legal wife has zero religious obligation to have sex with you.

Since your faith doesn't recognize your marriage as valid, you are free to leave the marriage and divorcing would be a legal matter, not a spiritual one.

Your options as a practicing Catholic are to divorce, exchange marital vows in the Church, or apply for Radical Sanation.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #186 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:37 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Speaking as a Catholic here.

According to the faith you profess, you aren't married and never have been married. Any sexual act you engage in is Mortal Sin. Religiously, you are a single man. Legally, you are married. From a legal standpoint, you've committed Adultery. From a religious standpoint, you have committed Fornication. Including, btw, with your wife as any sex she has had with you is pre-marital sex.

Under the rules of your faith, you aren't married and your legal wife has zero religious obligation to have sex with you.

Since your faith doesn't recognize your marriage as valid, you are free to leave the marriage and divorcing would be a legal matter, not a spiritual one.

Your options as a practicing Catholic are to divorce, exchange marital vows in the Church, or apply for Radical Sanation.
It's all so frightening and difficult. I'm going to confession today and will discuss this further with m Priest.

I just hope this does not make my child not want to follow religion any further then she/he already does.
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post #187 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:57 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Here is a question I would like answered.

What if one spouse decides to divorce because the other spouses refuses to uphold their marital vow of sexual relations and love, but then the neglectful spouse says she or he will change? Is the neglected spouse forced to stay in the the marriage?

What if the neglectful spouse doesn't change after that? And what if the neglectful spouse promised to change before but never has? Does this mean each time the neglectful spouse promises to change then the neglected spouse must stay in the marriage?

And what happens when the spouse who is denied sex over and over again falls into immoral sexual temptation due to the years of living in a sexless marriage? Doesn't that spouse owe it to himself to get out of the marriage and find a spouse who will enter into a marriage that includes sex?
if the people in the marriage are Christians, I would recommend that they either have some Christian marriage counselling or/and see the church leaders who should actually challenge her on her disobedience to God by refusing her husband sex. Then with that support on going, work on things changing and see what happens. If they refuse to get help or make any changes, then I would pray and ask for godly advise as to what to do next.

If the other spouse commits adultery, that is still their responsibility. If for example one spouse gets ill or is disabled and cant have sex any more, than I cant see that ending that marriage would ever be the right thing, after all its for better or for worse, as to what to do in you case, you would need guidance and godly wisdom.
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post #188 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:58 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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It's all so frightening and difficult. I'm going to confession today and will discuss this further with m Priest.

I just hope this does not make my child not want to follow religion any further then she/he already does.
Good grief, why do you go along with the thinking of the RC church? Its so skewed. If you were/are legally married you are married. Period.
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post #189 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 11:09 AM
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Good grief, why do you go along with the thinking of the RC church? Its so skewed. If you were/are legally married you are married. Period.
Perhaps he goes along with the RC Church because he's Catholic? If your faith didn't recognize your marriage, would you appreciate someone telling you your faith is incorrect?

There seem to be plenty of Christian sects that don't recognize same sex marriages or 2nd marriages while the first spouse is still living as valid marriages even though those people are legally married. It's pretty much the same thing.

The Church's rules are very clear here. As a Catholic, Mr.Strongman was bound by Canon Law to marry in his Church. He did not.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #190 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 12:13 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Perhaps he goes along with the RC Church because he's Catholic? If your faith didn't recognize your marriage, would you appreciate someone telling you your faith is incorrect?

There seem to be plenty of Christian sects that don't recognize same sex marriages or 2nd marriages while the first spouse is still living as valid marriages even though those people are legally married. It's pretty much the same thing.

The Church's rules are very clear here. As a Catholic, Mr.Strongman was bound by Canon Law to marry in his Church. He did not.
The issue is that what the RC church says on this issue isnt what God says.
In the Bible we are taught to get married, we aren't told where we must marry.

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post #191 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 01:58 PM
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The issue is that what the RC church says on this issue isnt what God says.
In the Bible we are taught to get married, we aren't told where we must marry.
With respect, that is your opinion. It is not shared by all or there wouldn't be about 1 billion Catholics floating around. The only way to prove it one way or another would be for God to have a sit down here on Earth for a Q&A. Since that's not happening in the foreseeable future, we can only go by what we each individually believe. It just so happens that Mr Strongman and I share the same belief system.

So we're clear and avoiding any confusion or misunderstanding, it is only Catholics who are required to marry according to Canonical Form or receive dispensation. When Confirmed, a Catholic agrees before God and their congregation to abide by the rules of the Church, including the ones that apply to marriage. Non-Catholics marry validly outside the Church as they have made no obligation to the Church.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #192 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 02:02 PM
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With respect, that is your opinion. It is not shared by all or there wouldn't be about 1 billion Catholics floating around. The only way to prove it one way or another would be for God to have a sit down here on Earth for a Q&A. Since that's not happening in the foreseeable future, we can only go by what we each individually believe. It just so happens that Mr Strongman and I share the same belief system.

So we're clear and avoiding any confusion or misunderstanding, it is only Catholics who are required to marry according to Canonical Form or receive dispensation. When Confirmed, a Catholic agrees before God and their congregation to abide by the rules of the Church, including the ones that apply to marriage. Non-Catholics marry validly outside the Church as they have made no obligation to the Church.
Its not my opinion, its what God says in His word. The christians then didnt have church buildings anyway, they met in each others homes.

No where does God says we must get married in a specific place. The location is irrelevant, God is everywhere, and if you made those promises he heard them.
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post #193 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 02:07 PM
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Its not my opinion, its what God says in His word. The christians then didnt have church buildings anyway, they met in each others homes.

No where does God says we must get married in a specific place. The location is irrelevant, God is everywhere, and if you made those promises he heard them.
At Baptism, parents profess belief in God and the Catholic Church on behalf of the person. At Confirmation, the person affirms their Baptism in their own right.

Confirmation is when the Catholic professes belief in God and the Church, part of that belief in the Church includes abiding by the rules of the Church, including those related to marriage. As I have explained before, Catholics are NOT Sola Scriptura.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.

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post #194 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 03:35 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Its not my opinion, its what God says in His word. The christians then didnt have church buildings anyway, they met in each others homes.

No where does God says we must get married in a specific place. The location is irrelevant, God is everywhere, and if you made those promises he heard them.
Okay @Diana7 you bring up a good point. I am going to try my best to bring up some questions about your point that I made bold above.

1: How do you or I know that God even has a book called the Word of God?

2: Given my limited intelligence I have to put my trust in a "religious organization" to believe that God does have a book called "the Word of God."

3: Who put the Word of God together? Was it the many Protestant demonstrations that came about through Martin Luther's branching out of the Catholic Church?

4: If it is, which Protestant denomination holds the truth to be able to interpret The Word of God? There are many Protestant denominations. Which one holds the true interpretation of the Gospel?

5. In other words, which Church has THE AUTHORITY to be able to interpret The Word of God accurately? I'm talking about the New Testament.

6. And if it is indeed the Roman Catholic Church that answers all the answers above, isn't the Roman Catholic Church still the Authority, and if so, still lead by the Holy Spirit in our world today? And if that's the case, is not The Catholic Church's rules in their Catechism still lead by the Holy Spirit thus being just about as important as the Holy Scripture itself?

7. Trust me, my life would be a whole lot easier if this is not the case.
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post #195 of 227 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 03:53 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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At Baptism, parents profess belief in God and the Catholic Church on behalf of the person. At Confirmation, the person affirms their Baptism in their own right.

Confirmation is when the Catholic professes belief in God and the Church, part of that belief in the Church includes abiding by the rules of the Church, including those related to marriage. As I have explained before, Catholics are NOT Sola Scriptura.
Church leaders are fallible, God is infallible. This is why i would never be part of the RC church, far far too many serious errors.
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