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post #166 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:42 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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Data may be free of bias, but the conclusions drawn from data may not be. Interpreting data can be complex and is not always straightforward and even honest scientists often disagree. This happens even in peer reviewed publications.
True.

I recently read an article in Scientific America where scientists who play fast and loose with data or reach conclusions differing from data are being called out. They state we have a huge amount of bad science going on from the top scientists and they want it to stop. There are many other articles about bad science.

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post #167 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:44 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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True.



I recently read an article in Scientific America where scientists who play fast and loose with data or reach conclusions differing from data are being called out. They state we have a huge amount of bad science going on from the top scientists and they want it to stop. There are many other articles about bad science.


Not true. Scientist who play loose and fast with data do not get published in peer reviewed research.


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post #168 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:46 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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@Rocky Mountain Yeti

I am simply pointing out you use the phrases, words and assumptions about scientist that denialist use. I know where these come from. We could go on all day as to the fallacies built into these arguments. But to me that is a waste of time. It is great that you choose to reduce your carbon footprint, but don’t buy into the arguments that scientists are perpetuating a liberal conspiracy. It is not a political argument, only how we respond to the tenants of data does it become a political argument. Otherwise, it is more about shooting the messenger rather than responding to the message.


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Again, yet another false attribution. I have never claimed, or even implied that scientists are perpetuating a liberal conspiracy.
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post #169 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:49 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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Are you suggesting that my refusal googeable rubbish in place of data driven science research is wrongheaded? What are my underlying presuppositions?


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See, now this right here is a perfect example of your inability to follow the simplest of logic trains and that you make these wild unfounded leaps to things never said or implied.

Please note that I was quite explicit in my statement by putting exactly what I was responding to in bold letters. Your constant reliance on unfounded assumptions and accusations is what makes your responses impossible to take seriously.
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post #170 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:50 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

Making conclusions about data only change as we gain more understanding of the science about the data collected. So, sure data today may have a slightly different conclusion 10 years from now, but only because we will have a more precise understanding the science about that data. Scientist use the words like, “the data suggests”, never to use the words “prove” or “proof”.


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post #171 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:50 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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Again, yet another false attribution. I have never claimed, or even implied that scientists are perpetuating a liberal conspiracy.


Then, I would suggest you use the words of scientist rather than that of denialist.


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post #172 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:51 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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True.

I recently read an article in Scientific America where scientists who play fast and loose with data or reach conclusions differing from data are being called out. They state we have a huge amount of bad science going on from the top scientists and they want it to stop. There are many other articles about bad science.
That can't be. Scientists are all completely competent, unbiased, and free of any agenda or pressure to appease their funding masters.

It is impossible for real scientists to engage in bad science.

If you don't believe me, just ask @Ikaika, he'll tell you.
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post #173 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:52 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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See, now this right here is a perfect example of your inability to follow the simplest of logic trains and that you make these wild unfounded leaps to things never said or implied.



Please note that I was quite explicit in my statement by putting exactly what I was responding to in bold letters. Your constant reliance on unfounded assumptions and accusations is what makes your responses impossible to take seriously.


Ok, then stop using the words of denialist and go the original sources. I say again, if you want to know about climate change research use google scholar not google itself.


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post #174 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:54 AM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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That can't be. Scientists are all completely competent, unbiased, and free of any agenda or pressure to appease their funding masters.



It is impossible for real scientists to engage in bad science.



If you don't believe me, just ask @Ikaika, he'll tell you.


See this is the words of a denialist... scientist do not have an agenda. And, no we don’t appease any funding masters. It is not as if congress reviews our work before being published.

Scientist engage in bad science, but those scientist have short careers.


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post #175 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:04 PM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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See this is the words of a denialist... scientist do not have an agenda. And, no we don’t appease any funding masters. It is not as if congress reviews our work before being published.

Scientist engage in bad science, but those scientist have short careers.


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Another ridiculous logical leap. Pointing out that this occurs is merely acknowledging what has been proven to go on... which is the OPPOSITE of being in denial.

If this had led to short careers, it would be dead by now.

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post #176 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:09 PM
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If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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Another ridiculous logical leap. Pointing out that this occurs is merely acknowledging what has been proven to go on... which is the OPPOSITE of being in denial.



If this had led to short careers, it would be dead by now.


The reason climate science is not dead, is that research is sound under the scientific methodology, not political one. Again, you use the words of a denialist.

There are no overlords or masters. Grants are reviewed by peers and only about 15% of all grants get funded because the rest have some small degree of unacceptable uncertainty or there is just not enough funds to cover it all.


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post #177 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:19 PM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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The reason climate science is not dead, is that research is sound under the scientific methodology, not political one. Again, you use the words of a denialist.

There are no overlords or masters. Grants are reviewed by peers and only about 15% of all grants get funded because the rest have some small degree of unacceptable uncertainty or there is just not enough funds to cover it all.


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Damn, dude, you just can't help yourself. I never said anything about climate science needing to be dead as a result of bad science.

Can you possibly go a single freaking post without false attribution and pathetic strawman arguments?

Let me clue you into something here.... pointing out that there is some discord is not equivalent to the words of a denialist. That is ONLY in your obviously narrow mind.

Hey, while we're at it.... here you go.... from your beloved google scholar no less!

"In most cases, little difference is discerned between those who have participated in the IPCC process and those who have not. Consensus, however, in both groups does not amount to unanimity. Results also suggest rather than a single group proclaiming the IPCC does not represent consensus, there are now two groups, one claiming the IPCC makes overestimations (a group previously labeled skeptics, deniers, etc.) and a relatively new formation of a group (many of whom have participated in the IPCC process) proclaiming that IPCC tends to underestimate some climate related phenomena."

That's all I've been saying all along.
All scientists. All respected. All peer reviewed. And yet there is some disagreement. Some, as you noted, even say the IPCC underestimates some climate related phenomena.
That's the strongest non-denialist position of them all... and it still represents exactly what I've been saying... that there is disagreement within the scientific community on this topic.

If any acknowledgement of some level of disagreement is the words of a denialist, than this peer reviewed scientific author from a source of your very own choosing is a denialist.
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post #178 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:32 PM
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If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

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Damn, dude, you just can't help yourself. I never said anything about climate science needing to be dead as a result of bad science.

Can you possibly go a single freaking post without false attribution and pathetic strawman arguments?

Let me clue you into something here.... pointing out that there is some discord is not equivalent to the words of a denialist. That is ONLY in your obviously narrow mind.

Hey, while we're at it.... here you go.... from your beloved google scholar no less!

"In most cases, little difference is discerned between those who have participated in the IPCC process and those who have not. Consensus, however, in both groups does not amount to unanimity. Results also suggest rather than a single group proclaiming the IPCC does not represent consensus, there are now two groups, one claiming the IPCC makes overestimations (a group previously labeled skeptics, deniers, etc.) and a relatively new formation of a group (many of whom have participated in the IPCC process) proclaiming that IPCC tends to underestimate some climate related phenomena."

That's all I've been saying all along.
All scientists. All respected. All peer reviewed. And yet there is some disagreement. Some, as you noted, even say the IPCC underestimates some climate related phenomena.
That's the strongest non-denialist position of them all... and it still represents exactly what I've been saying... that there is disagreement within the scientific community on this topic.

If any acknowledgement of some level of disagreement is the words of a denialist, than this peer reviewed scientific author from a source of your very own choosing is a denialist.


I would like to see the source for your quote, I would like to read the entire article in its full context. The reason is that scientists do not use the word consensus. We use terms like the consilience of data that leads to theoretical conclusions. One wonders if it was written by a soft scientists (e.g., psychology)

I suspect it is from a review article and many of which can make assumptions from first articles that are sometimes misleading. Yes, that is where the general public gets these ideas.

There are not two thoughts from scientist on AGW, it is all in the details not in the degree of understanding.


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Last edited by Ikaika; 06-19-2019 at 12:36 PM.
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post #179 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:35 PM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

@Rocky Mountain Yeti

If you would like, I would be happy to post 10 peer reviewed articles a day and that we can discuss, from a scientific point of view and not from a political view.


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post #180 of 353 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:42 PM
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Re: If Trump isn't presidential please answer the following questions

Here is an article showing where we are uncertain on the degree of potential warming. That is due to positive feedback loops (I already mentioned) from permafrost thaw (which is about 90 years ahead of schedule).

https://www.the-cryosphere.net/13/647/2019/


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