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post #1666 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 11:05 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by DownButNotOut View Post
So much of what you wrote is based in deceptive spin and misrepresentation. The only place Iíve read that interpretation is in Devin Nunesí talking points. And he is suing an imaginary cow ... so ...

The truth is likely to be far more mundane. But much is still hidden behind redactions.
Which is why I say bring it all out into the light of day. All of it. As long as Schiff restricts the Republicans, all we are getting is the Democrat spin as reported by the overwhelmingly anti-Trump media.

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post #1667 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 11:15 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Which is why I say bring it all out into the light of day. All of it. As long as Schiff restricts the Republicans, all we are getting is the Democrat spin as reported by the overwhelmingly anti-Trump media.
What is he stopping them from doing? Calling Hunter Biden? Calling the whistleblower? How do either of those things deal with the actual issue this is about? Whether Hunter or Joe Biden is guilty is irrelevant to what is going on here. So there is no point in bringing them in. If Trump has some evidence to support why he was encouraging this investigation, then that would be useful. However...Ö.nothing. Just grandstanding and outrage.
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post #1668 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 11:45 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Listening to this impeachment stuff, Nunes and the Republicans spend all of their time attacking witnesses and asking about the whistleblower.

It is a giant waste of their time and then they will rant about it and complain they never get to ask questions.
First, it was republicans not having access... even though they did. Oops!

Second, it was that it was behind closed doors... now they're public. Oops!

Thirdly, it's that it's all a scam and shouldn't be distracting the public... even though their own staffers are the ones testifying. Oops!

Fourthly, it's all about the whistleblower being anti-Trump and lying... even though their own transcripts show they weren't. Oops!

Fifthly, it's all hearsay and therefore not really evidence... even though they have multiple first hand witnesses, and Trump himself admitted it in public, and so did his staff. Oops!

Sixthly, it's all not impeachable because it doesn't rise to "high crimes and misdemeanors"... only it's bribery, which is named right there in your constitution. Oops!

Seventhly, it's not witness intimidation because something something president and staffers are weak anyway... until Trump does it while the witness is testifying in public. Oops!

What next stupid thing are they going to try to distract people with, that will actually just serve to make it even more clear what's going on?
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post #1669 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 12:03 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Why do republicans think that stacks of paper and big signs are effective tools in this?

Also, to try and paint using the term extorsion or bribery as a changing of what this trial about is extremely misleading. They are semantic statements about the view of what happened, not different offenses or a different case. Just more republican misdirection.
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post #1670 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:00 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

So another Rep talking point here is saying it is all about the call. The call is what initiated this, the call isn't what Trump is being investigated for. The investigation and the impeachment is about the whole thing, the meetings, the call, Kerry, trips to the Ukraine by other people and on and on.

Whether Trump said quid pro quo, or bribe, or any other particular word isn't what this is about.
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post #1671 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:01 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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You clearly don't understand what I have written.

People within the government petitioned for a warrant under what they knew to be false pretenses. They were officially law enforcement but were acting to get to a political outcome which was not a part of their lawful duties. Their emails prove they were trying to affect the outcome of the Presidential election. They were not acting out of wholesome honest politically neutral motivations, but in fact the exact opposite of that.

So they became an arm of the Democratic Party though not on the payroll of the DNC.

Your characterization of the dossier as a commercially produced report glosses over the deep entanglements involved.

You are acting like the people involved in this were simpleton officers who acted in good faith on credible information. This was a cabal who by their own words were knowingly working every angle they could to take down Trump. They knew the dossier to be false and unverifiable. They used an ally in the media to generate a news story, then they presented that news story under false pretenses to the FISA court as independent corroboration of the dossier.

I never said non-leos tried to get a warrant. What I said is offoicials within DoJ, FBI, CIA, and the Obama administration used color of law to spy on Trump for political purposes, and thus they were nearly indistinguishable from the DNC or Hillary's campaign.
So basically to back you up it went something like this

A conservative anit trump website/ think tank initialy hired Fusion GPS to do operation research on trump and then dropped it.

The DNC and Hillary's campaign paid a law firm who then hired Fusion GPS who then hired Steele to develop the dossier, also known as opposition research. (none of it has been proven true which is the legal standard).

Steele gave the dossier to Fusion GPS and also sent it anonamously to Yahoo news to publish. This was then used as a second source on the FISA application.

Fusion passes the dossier to Brennan who gets it to Harry Reid. Reid passes it to the DOJ and then starts apply pressure to investigate it. Brennan starts backing up Reid in pressure and eventually Clapper gets involved.

The FBI being Comey, McCabe, Page and Strozk and eventually Resenstein complet FISA applications using the dossier as their main piece of evidence as stated by McCabe and the Yahoo story submitted by Steele as back up. The FBI never tries to verify the dossier and Comey even admits to Trump that they know most of it was false or unsubstaiated.

In the application they disguise the funding source being the Clinton Campaign and the DNC in a footnote and never reveal that the Yahoo story source if from the same person that compiled the dossier.

Oh lets not forget the Nellie Ohr worked at Fusion and fed info to her Husband then the number 4 guy at the DOJ.
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post #1672 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:13 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Why do republicans think that stacks of paper and big signs are effective tools in this?

Also, to try and paint using the term extorsion or bribery as a changing of what this trial about is extremely misleading. They are semantic statements about the view of what happened, not different offenses or a different case. Just more republican misdirection.
Because if you watch Fox News or go to Brietbart it's all that is used, and then people believe it.

That's all they are looking for - talking points to be amplified by corrupt "news" sources.

Hannity should be subpeona'd. They've totally lost any even faux veneer of factual reporting. You can't report the news when you're helping invent it.
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post #1673 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Which is why I say bring it all out into the light of day. All of it. As long as Schiff restricts the Republicans, all we are getting is the Democrat spin as reported by the overwhelmingly anti-Trump media.
Trump is restricting Schiff by telling would be witnesses that they should defy their invitation to testify in Congress.
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post #1674 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:29 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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So another Rep talking point here is saying it is all about the call. The call is what initiated this, the call isn't what Trump is being investigated for. The investigation and the impeachment is about the whole thing, the meetings, the call, Kerry, trips to the Ukraine by other people and on and on.

Whether Trump said quid pro quo, or bribe, or any other particular word isn't what this is about.
Because that's how Trump got elected.

He just kept repeating lies until people believed him.

The wall, illegal immigrants, Hillary's emails, climate change is a hoax, Obama's birth certificate, Biden... all things he invented, lied about, or totally distorted.

Yet look at the folks here parroting these things back like they're real talking points.

They're just following his lead. Like others will. Just like others will intimidate witnesses, make deals with other nation-states to get elected, use taxpayer money to pay themselves and their families, and lie, lie, lie...

Trump will not be president forever no matter what happens. But what he normalizes might just last forever. And eventually there will be a president Trump supporters hate, but will do exactly what he did, and it will be viewed as OK because Trump did it and got away with it.
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post #1675 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:30 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Trump is restricting Schiff by telling would be witnesses that they should defy their invitation to testify in Congress.
Interesting that republicans wanted it all to come out publicly , until they didn't. And now Trump is attempting to fire staffers that come forward under subpoena.

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post #1676 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:36 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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What is he stopping them from doing? Calling Hunter Biden? Calling the whistleblower? How do either of those things deal with the actual issue this is about? Whether Hunter or Joe Biden is guilty is irrelevant to what is going on here. So there is no point in bringing them in. If Trump has some evidence to support why he was encouraging this investigation, then that would be useful. However...Ö.nothing. Just grandstanding and outrage.
This is a political procedure not a criminal procedure. It is politicians of the Democratic Party trying to remove the Republican President from office. One would also see this as a big play towards winning the 2020 elections. This is all about politics on the D side. Unless something comes to light which heretofore is unknown, there is zero chance the Senate will convict. So what is the end political goal? To harm the Republicans so as to win the White House and win more seats in Congress in the 2020 elections.

With that in mind, the President should be allowed to call any witness and o ask any question of any witness in order to explain what he did and why he did it.

Is this impeachment an honest attempt to investigate real wrongdoing? In the Nixon and Clinton impeachments there was ample material evidence of criminal actions. In the Trump impeachment so far it is about the opinions and feelings but without material evidence. The witnesses might be motivated purely by politics. Thus it is germaine to know who all the players are and what the paths were. Those who say they heard something or they believe a particular meaning was implied can only be believed if they are impartial to the politics.

The Bidens are germaine because there is a lot of evidence they were involved in corruption, and if Trump was seeking assistance to investigate it then he is arguing there was a legitimate reason for what happened.
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post #1677 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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The Bidens are germaine because there is a lot of evidence they were involved in corruption, and if Trump was seeking assistance to investigate it then he is arguing there was a legitimate reason for what happened.
No, they aren't. Whether they are guilty or not does not make anything Trump does right. It is no more or less a crime based upon the guilty or innocence of the Bidens. If you think it does, then that shows it is a political thing for you, and not a question of abuse of power.
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post #1678 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 02:05 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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No, they aren't. Whether they are guilty or not does not make anything Trump does right. It is no more or less a crime based upon the guilty or innocence of the Bidens. If you think it does, then that shows it is a political thing for you, and not a question of abuse of power.
"True narcissists are not accountable for their own bad behavior. It is common for them to blame others and make it someone elseís fault. They use denial, accusation, misdirection, and lying to throw you off base. You can walk away wondering if it is just your imagination, or if you are sorely mistaken, and it is truly your fault."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...trol-and-abuse

It's gaslighting. He's literally gaslighting the American public and most republicans are enabling it.
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post #1679 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 04:02 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Why do republicans think that stacks of paper and big signs are effective tools in this?

Also, to try and paint using the term extorsion or bribery as a changing of what this trial about is extremely misleading. They are semantic statements about the view of what happened, not different offenses or a different case. Just more republican misdirection.
it's not misleading when the Democrats did a focus group survey to determine which charge sounded best. That told a lot of people that it is all ridiculous. If they had a real charge that would stick they wouldn't need to get an opinion poll done.
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post #1680 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 04:05 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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No, they aren't. Whether they are guilty or not does not make anything Trump does right. It is no more or less a crime based upon the guilty or innocence of the Bidens. If you think it does, then that shows it is a political thing for you, and not a question of abuse of power.
"Did you shoot the man who lies dead there on the floor?"

"Yes I did."

But is it murder or is it justified self defense? If you don't get to hear why I shot the man, if you are unwilling to let me speak my side of the story, the truth can not be known with confidence.

That is the gist of the matter. But, you like many others are convinced there is no other possible motivation but that Trump was trying to get political dirt on Joe Biden in order to defeat him in 2020. Bringing the Bidens or the whistleblower under oath to testify is not to convict them but to let the public see the entirety of the picture so that we have as accurate an understanding as possible.
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