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post #1786 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 10:07 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
Ukrainian involvement in the 2016 election has been debunked. Are you concerned about Rick Perry installing his donors in Burisma these days?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nat...-deal-n1079896
This is a report in 2017 in Politico. Politico is certainly not a right wing echo chamber

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ackfire-233446

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post #1787 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 10:15 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by karole View Post
This is a report in 2017 in Politico. Politico is certainly not a right wing echo chamber

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ackfire-233446
You should read that article if you get a chance. It is not nearly as damning as you seem to think it is.
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post #1788 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 10:22 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by karole View Post
This is a report in 2017 in Politico. Politico is certainly not a right wing echo chamber

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ackfire-233446
Others have taken issue with that article.

Chalupa herself:

https://twitter.com/AlexandraChalup/...ine-conspiracy

WaPo tried to verify the politico article and found it lacking:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ne-did-it-too/

And the author of the politico article later had this to say:
Quote:
“But when you dig down into the details, they're very, very different,” Stern said, “and it's important to note the difference there. Now, we said in our article ... that we don't have, as far as we can see, the type of top-down and wide, broad attack on the American election that was being alleged.”
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post #1789 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 11:23 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Fiona Hill testified: "Fiona Hill says then-Ukrainian Ambassador to the US Valeriy Chaly wrote an "ill-advised" op-ed bashing Trump in the run-up to the 2016 election. Said the Ukrainians "bet on the wrong horse" (Hillary), and said she could understand why Trump felt aggrieved"

"The other article she brought up was a Politico piece by journalist Kenneth Vogel that outlined efforts by a Democratic National Committee contractor Alexandra Chalupa to work with Ukrainian officials to distribute dirt on the Trump campaign.

“Kenneth Vogel is a very well-known, and as you pointed out, extremely good journalist,” she said. “I think it is extraordinarily important and gets to the issue here.”

“Mr. Vogel points out that the Ukrainian government, again, they wouldn’t have done very well at the bookies…they bet on the wrong horse — they bet on Hillary Clinton winning the election. And so, you know, they were trying to curry favor with the Clinton campaign — it’s quite evident here,” she continued.

Hill cited several Ukrainian officials in the article who were trying to collect information on Trump’s then-campaign manager Paul Manafort “and other people as well.”
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post #1790 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 11:48 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by DownButNotOut View Post
Got it. So the next President has a green light to go after what Ivanka, Eric, and Don jr. have been up to while their daddy was President. Good to know. And if that happens to help him/her politically well its the Repubs fault.

Anything to avoid admitting what Trump did was wrong.
Why do republicans not see that they will not be in power forever, and normalizing all this stuff is going to haunt them?

Stupidity and short shortsightedness. Jordan, etc are all going to be pilloried in the years to come.

I'm almost hoping Trump stays put just to let him take everybody in the GOP with him that enabled him. The surest way to drive the nation to the left is to push it far-right through lies and corruption, and then wait for the backlash.

And the innumerable 'investigations' into Trump, Barr, Giuliani, and the rest of 'team corruption' for years to come... and when it's totally normal to sell american financial and military influence for political gain. Elections will literally be up for the highest bidder - of other nation states.
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post #1791 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 12:15 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

I agree with President Trump regarding foreign aid.
The US sends a lot of money to other countries.
Aid that goes where ? Used how ? In Ukraine where
are the other European nations aid ? Trump sent military
aid, Obama didn't. If Europe is worried about Russia
and Ukraine they need to help.

NATO= Not American Troops Only
That includes foreign aid.

From the hearings I have watched I see a bunch
of people saying we have always done it like that.
Changing foreign policy and the way things are done
upsets them. The president sets foreign policy,their job
is to carry it out. Not second guess. If they disagree or
have concerns, contact the Secretary of State, who will
advise the President.

A couple of these witnesses have stated that the discussed
things with other people. Who and why ? Maybe the so called
whistle blower ?

Trump is a business man and wants to know how money is being
used. Not his but the taxpayers. About time we had someone who
does.

Never place anyone on a pedestal it hurts more when they fall off
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post #1792 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 12:48 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Yes, he is super concerned with the budget and the American tax payer, which is why we have gone into crazy debt....you know, his care for our tax dollars and all.

Are we stopping aid to Israel now? I mean, we should hold it up while we figure out what is going on with corruption there, don't you think? We give about 10x the aid there than we do to Ukraine.

Last edited by Tasorundo; 11-22-2019 at 12:58 PM.
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post #1793 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 12:54 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
I agree with President Trump regarding foreign aid.
The US sends a lot of money to other countries.
Aid that goes where ? Used how ? In Ukraine where
are the other European nations aid ? Trump sent military
aid, Obama didn't. If Europe is worried about Russia
and Ukraine they need to help.
“The European Union is the largest donor to Ukraine” King wrote, estimating that the EU has given almost twice as much on average per year than the U.S. since 2014.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
A couple of these witnesses have stated that the discussed
things with other people. Who and why ? Maybe the so called
whistle blower ?
The only ones I have seen say that, talked to people who are of a clearance level that it was ok to talk with them. Holmes said he talked to people about a phone call that did not contain sensitive information, was made on a personal/non-secure line, in public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
Trump is a business man and wants to know how money is being
used. Not his but the taxpayers. About time we had someone who
does.
As I said above, if that is his concern, why is he arguing over 400 million, when the debt has gone up 2 trillion dollars. Thank goodness he is fighting over what makes up 0.02% of debt under Trump.
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post #1794 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 01:27 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

EU military aid ?
Where does the EU
get most of their natural
gas from? Russia

Talking with anyone if it doesn't
concern them leads to he said she
said. I have seen that during this
thing. Even if it is on a non secure
line.

How much did the national debt go
up during the Obama admin ? How much
did the US military budget shirk during his
admin ?

The House will not even vote on anything.
To consumed with impeachment.Trade deal
with Mexico and Canada ? Defense bill which
includes a large pay raise for our troops ?
No they just passed a resolution to keep the
gov. from shutting down for a while.

Reducing the debt has been discussed several times.
If President Trump doesn't sign the massive budget
bills the Congress sends him then the gov. will shut
down. The House controls the purse strings as the
old saying goes. Budget, spending bills must go through
Senate and House, then President.

Look what happened when he just held up some military aid.
Impeachment, Impeachment, that is wasting time and money.
How much did the Muller report cost again ? Yep there is a lot
of money being wasted.

Never place anyone on a pedestal it hurts more when they fall off
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post #1795 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:01 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
EU military aid ?
Where does the EU
get most of their natural
gas from? Russia
The EU provides 2x the dollar amount in aid, if you would like to find sources that say otherwise, please do. You won't. Only about half or less of the funds the US provides to the Ukraine are military from things I have seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
Talking with anyone if it doesn't
concern them leads to he said she
said. I have seen that during this
thing. Even if it is on a non secure
line.
What is the point of this statement? No one talked about anything they were not allowed to. This is just a pointless thread of trying to blame people for talking about something. Yes, the whistleblower heard it from someone, but they were authorized to hear it, there was no wrong doing in telling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
How much did the national debt go
up during the Obama admin ? How much
did the US military budget shirk during his
admin ?
For the first part, it went up about the same as Trumps, however Obama had to take on the bailout and financial crisis. Trump inherited a strong economy, has had no issues, and still increased debt.

Despite the hype defense spending isn't really much different. In fact, several Obama years were higher than the current Trump years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-2000-to-2012/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
The House will not even vote on anything.
To consumed with impeachment.Trade deal
with Mexico and Canada ? Defense bill which
includes a large pay raise for our troops ?
No they just passed a resolution to keep the
gov. from shutting down for a while.
There are votes going on, in fact they voted yesterday on something. The USMCA isn't a slam dunk deal even though Trump wants everyone to think that. Canada cannot even begin the approval process until December.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
Reducing the debt has been discussed several times.
If President Trump doesn't sign the massive budget
bills the Congress sends him then the gov. will shut
down. The House controls the purse strings as the
old saying goes. Budget, spending bills must go through
Senate and House, then President.
You mean, the Rep House, and Rep Senate, for 2 years, didn't do anything to lower any debt or deal with it at all? SHOCKING! Now it must all be the Dems fault....Hey, they 'discussed' it though, so it's like they did it, right?

The debt isn't as much from the new budget as it is from the tax bill, that no one was forced to sign. https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/07...ts-are-a-bust/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
Look what happened when he just held up some military aid.
Impeachment, Impeachment, that is wasting time and money.
How much did the Muller report cost again ? Yep there is a lot
of money being wasted.
Yes, Washington wastes a lot of money, no where near what we waste in corporate subsidies, paying farmers to offset tariffs, and other projects that actively hurt the average citizen. The money spent on Mueller is nothing to the budget, and it products multiple indictments. What did we get for the millions spent on Benghazi?

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post #1796 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:16 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa58 View Post
EU military aid ?
Where does the EU
get most of their natural
gas from? Russia

Talking with anyone if it doesn't
concern them leads to he said she
said. I have seen that during this
thing. Even if it is on a non secure
line.

How much did the national debt go
up during the Obama admin ? How much
did the US military budget shirk during his
admin ?

The House will not even vote on anything.
To consumed with impeachment.Trade deal
with Mexico and Canada ? Defense bill which
includes a large pay raise for our troops ?
No they just passed a resolution to keep the
gov. from shutting down for a while.

Reducing the debt has been discussed several times.
If President Trump doesn't sign the massive budget
bills the Congress sends him then the gov. will shut
down. The House controls the purse strings as the
old saying goes. Budget, spending bills must go through
Senate and House, then President.

Look what happened when he just held up some military aid.
Impeachment, Impeachment, that is wasting time and money.
How much did the Muller report cost again ? Yep there is a lot
of money being wasted.
Are you writing in iambic pentameter?
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post #1797 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:26 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownButNotOut View Post
Others have taken issue with that article.

“But when you dig down into the details, they're very, very different,” Stern said, “and it's important to note the difference there. Now, we said in our article ... that we don't have, as far as we can see, the type of top-down and wide, broad attack on the American election that was being alleged.
Well since it was a relatively minor attack on the American election system coupled that it was anti-Trump, maybe we can just rug sweep it and tell folks it never happened.



Quote:
Originally Posted by karole View Post

“Mr. Vogel points out that the Ukrainian government, again, they wouldn’t have done very well at the bookies…they bet on the wrong horse — they bet on Hillary Clinton winning the election. And so, you know, they were trying to curry favor with the Clinton campaign — it’s quite evident here,” she (Dr. Hill) continued.
Curry favor with the Clinton campaign means doing things to increase votes for Clinton. But what the hey, it wasn't a top down attack; just several Ukrainian officials trying denigrate Clinton's opponent to increase her chances to win.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
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post #1798 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:35 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Well since it was a relatively minor attack on the American election system coupled that it was anti-Trump, maybe we can just rug sweep it and tell folks it never happened.





Curry favor with the Clinton campaign means doing things to increase votes for Clinton. But what the hey, it wasn't a top down attack; just several Ukrainian officials trying denigrate Clinton's opponent to increase her chances to win.
Yes, some tweets and an Op-Ed is the same thing as hacking and disinformation campaigns. Good call there Vlad.

Also, it's funny how even this morning Trump is still rambling about crowdstrike and the DNC server in the Ukraine on Fox news.
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post #1799 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:37 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

I guess these are all places we should investigate as well: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...mp-got-elected
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post #1800 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 03:49 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

I love how Trump just called into Fox & Friends and confirmed himself that he was holding up the aid on purpose until they did the investigation.
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