whistleblower complaint against Trump - Page 124 - Talk About Marriage
Politics This is the place to discuss politics

User Tag List

 2019Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #1846 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 07:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,846
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Did Trump or his associates mention having any company other than Burisma investigated? And within Burisma, did they mention any individual other than Biden that they wanted investigated. If they truly were concerned about corruption, then I would expect them to mention many companies they suspected of being corrupt, as well as many individuals within those companies. In addition, I would expect them to have many oligarchs and Ukrainian politicians they also suspected of being corrupt. As far as I've heard from the news and the hearings, Trump's concern about "widespread corruption" within Ukraine as the reason he held back aid seems to be limited to one person in one company.

wilson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1847 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 08:13 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 176
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
No, he wants to know the taxpayers money is only going to countries that show proof they a cleaning up corruption and use the money we provide as we intended and they are willing to promulgate. That's stewardship Spiny.


If that’s what this was about, then why didn’t they just say that after the whistleblower complaint and before releasing the funds?

“The White House released the funding to Ukraine on Sept.*11. The timing has drawn scrutiny because it came two days after the House was formally alerted to a whistleblower complaint, who raised concerns about the call and whether the president was using his public office for personal political gain.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
GAgirl912 is offline  
post #1848 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 09:42 PM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,218
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
When has it been a crime to accept a job you are not qualified for? If someone came and offered you a job, because they knew your dad, or your last name was famous, should you just not take it? I mean, it's not like the guy is an idiot, he is a lawyer. He has more qualifications than any of Trump's kids, and you don't seem to be upset about jobs they are not qualified for.

There are loads of famous people getting paid for things they are not qualified to do, because of who they are. You should start a campaign to get athletes out of television commercials, they are awful!
So what is your theory on why Burisma hired Hunter? What did they expect to get for their money?
Thor is offline  
 
post #1849 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 09:53 PM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,218
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownButNotOut View Post
Bolded is the problem. We should be looking at the entire situation without political leaning. It should not matter whether you are R or D. It should just matter what has objectively taken place, independent of R or D spin.

I would expect that a little of both are true in what you wrote. Hunter Biden was courted because of his name. The company surely hoped that name would carry some sway when dealing with the US market. But neither of those things rise to criminality in and of themselves. In fact both are very common in all industries.
This isn't private corporations scratching each others's backs. This involves officials of the USA discharging their duties.

Does this comport with federal law wrt Vice President Biden? Specifically against conflict of interest.

I don't know that Hunter committed any crimes. Maybe he held secret conversations with his dad, which would have been illegal corruption, but I haven't heard any allegations of that. Him accepting money despite having zero qualifications for the job is not a crime taken in isolation from the context.

But what about Vice President Biden? Wouldn't an objective person see the arrangement as a strong appearance of conflict of interest on his part? Wouldn't one believe it quite possible his official actions could be influenced due to his son's lucrative position?

Reference 18USC208

Last edited by Thor; 11-24-2019 at 09:58 PM.
Thor is offline  
post #1850 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 12:05 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,846
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
So what is your theory on why Burisma hired Hunter? What did they expect to get for their money?
There's a lot of focus on Hunter being hired by Burisma, as if that alone is a sign of corruption. It's not. Companies hire all kinds of people to their board for all kinds of reasons. For example, Giuliani is on the board the "Grand Havana", a private club in NY. I can only guess why he was hired, but I would imagine it would be for the name recognition, the contacts he has which could increase club membership, his minor celebrity status in the NY region which would lead to press, etc. I'm guessing he had no experience at running such a club and has little involvement in the day-to-day operations. There is always the possibility it was done for corrupt purposes--such as to bypass licensing requirements with the city or something--but a public person like him being on a board is in no way uniquely indicative of corruption or illegal activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
I don't know that Hunter committed any crimes. Maybe he held secret conversations with his dad, which would have been illegal corruption, but I haven't heard any allegations of that. Him accepting money despite having zero qualifications for the job is not a crime taken in isolation from the context.

But what about Vice President Biden? Wouldn't an objective person see the arrangement as a strong appearance of conflict of interest on his part? Wouldn't one believe it quite possible his official actions could be influenced due to his son's lucrative position?

Reference 18USC208
People have been doing a lot of what-ifs about Hunter trying to make things look as bad as possible. Certainly massive corruption can always be possible, but there needs to be some proof or some reason to investigate. Being on a board is not an indication of corruption. But if he had such conversations, then that would be problematic. But there needs to be some proof more than someone just thinking up something that may have happened.

And there does seem to be a lot of focus on Hunter gaining an advantage based on his father's name and position, yet that is also very common in politics and business. Hunter is not the first and only child to succeed this way. Many children of rich and/or powerful people are hired by companies because of that person's connections. Trump's own children have gained such advantages. So even if Hunter got hired solely because of his name, that is no way unique or indicative of corruption.
wilson is offline  
post #1851 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 01:07 AM
Member
 
VladDracul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 3,734
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

I don't think the transaction of Hunter Biden going to work for the company was in and of itself corrupt. What's suspect is the reason a corrupt company wanted Hunter Biden on the payroll at what seems an extraordinary amount of money for his talent. A friend of mine had her CPA licenses revoked for working for a construction and land development company that was laundering money. If someone offered you ten grand a trip to deliver a small packages to the other side of town, you'd likely have some questions and reservations.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
VladDracul is online now  
post #1852 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 08:37 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,812
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
So what is your theory on why Burisma hired Hunter? What did they expect to get for their money?
I don't know what they wanted/expected. No matter what they wanted, that doesn't make Biden guilty of doing something.

I find it funny that the leap from Burisma hired Biden, therefore Biden is guilty is so easy. Yet, the leap from Trump did multiple things, and had multiple people do multiple things doesn't mean he did anything. He just really wanted to stop corruption.

Hey, here's a theory, maybe Hunter Biden is so anti-corruption he went under cover at Burisma to root it out! Look, there is the Trump defense applied to Biden, now no one is guilty.
Tasorundo is offline  
post #1853 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 09:53 AM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,218
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson View Post
There's a lot of focus on Hunter being hired by Burisma, as if that alone is a sign of corruption. It's not. Companies hire all kinds of people to their board for all kinds of reasons. For example, Giuliani is on the board the "Grand Havana", a private club in NY. I can only guess why he was hired, but I would imagine it would be for the name recognition, the contacts he has which could increase club membership, his minor celebrity status in the NY region which would lead to press, etc. I'm guessing he had no experience at running such a club and has little involvement in the day-to-day operations. There is always the possibility it was done for corrupt purposes--such as to bypass licensing requirements with the city or something--but a public person like him being on a board is in no way uniquely indicative of corruption or illegal activity.



People have been doing a lot of what-ifs about Hunter trying to make things look as bad as possible. Certainly massive corruption can always be possible, but there needs to be some proof or some reason to investigate. Being on a board is not an indication of corruption. But if he had such conversations, then that would be problematic. But there needs to be some proof more than someone just thinking up something that may have happened.

And there does seem to be a lot of focus on Hunter gaining an advantage based on his father's name and position, yet that is also very common in politics and business. Hunter is not the first and only child to succeed this way. Many children of rich and/or powerful people are hired by companies because of that person's connections. Trump's own children have gained such advantages. So even if Hunter got hired solely because of his name, that is no way unique or indicative of corruption.
But you are ignoring the significant factors. Hunter is a direct blood relative of the Vice President. The Vice President's family was greatly benefiting financially while the Vice President was the person running the USA policy with Ukraine, which btw involved billions of dollars of aid.

This isn't at all like Rudy being on a board, unless Rudy had a child or parent in a position of power with the city licensing board. And while Burisma might have gained benefit of bragging they had a Biden on their board, the important part is Joe's conflict of interest. Not Hunter's, but Joe's.

Again, the issue isn't whether Hunter did something slimy, or whether any Biden violated any Ukrainian law. The problem is a very high US government official in the position of power over policy and $$$ regarding Ukraine was conflicted.

Don't you see this as different than private companies and private individuals? There are anti-corruption laws prohibiting government officials being involved in situations precisely like the Bidens' simply because of the appearance of conflict of interest. The federal law I quoted earlier is the federal law which would apply.
Thor is offline  
post #1854 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 10:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,846
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

An analogous situation to Hunter being on the board of Burisma would be the people on the board of Theranos. If you remember, Theranos was creating a new way of doing blood tests and they raised hundreds of millions of dollars. However, their technology didn't work and they hid the failures from everyone. The board had a lot of top military and political people, such as Henry Kissinger, James Mattis, and George Shultz among others. None of the people like that had any experience in developing medical testing equipment. They were likely hired for the board for other reasons, like their contacts, their advice on business, their ability to organize and execute, etc.

Trump holding back aid to Ukraine until they investigated Biden+Burisma would be like S. Korea holding back military compensation payments to the US until they investigated Mattis+Theranos. Even if those companies are corrupt, they are essentially unrelated to the money being held back. And just because a big name is on the board doesn't mean they got there because of corrupt reasons.
wilson is offline  
post #1855 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 10:06 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,846
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Again, the issue isn't whether Hunter did something slimy, or whether any Biden violated any Ukrainian law. The problem is a very high US government official in the position of power over policy and $$$ regarding Ukraine was conflicted.

Don't you see this as different than private companies and private individuals? There are anti-corruption laws prohibiting government officials being involved in situations precisely like the Bidens' simply because of the appearance of conflict of interest. The federal law I quoted earlier is the federal law which would apply.
I would be all for eliminating this kind of conflict of interest. However, it is quite common for politician's relatives to be in positions where there is potential for this kind of conflict of interest. Hunter is in no way unique. There are many spouses, children, siblings, etc. of politicians who have this exact kind of conflict of interest. If Hunter is guilty just because there is this potential of conflict, then pretty much every politician is also in the same predicament. For example:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsweek
Elaine Chao reportedly helped secure millions of dollars in federal money requested by her husband, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, for his home state of Kentucky by using her official capacity as secretary of the Department of Transportation, a move that ethics officials have lambasted and even consider impeachable.


wilson is offline  
post #1856 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 10:06 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,430
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

I, for one, would like to know if US taxpayer dollars meant for aid to the Ukraine was being funneled back to the Bidens.
karole is offline  
post #1857 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 10:31 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,812
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by karole View Post
I, for one, would like to know if US taxpayer dollars meant for aid to the Ukraine was being funneled back to the Bidens.
Because you have some evidence of this? Or you just have a wild ass theory?

Why do we care so much about things with no evidence, and yet not care at all about Trump blatantly doing all of these things you are so worried Biden, might, have done.
Tasorundo is offline  
post #1858 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 11:20 AM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,218
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson View Post
An analogous situation to Hunter being on the board of Burisma would be the people on the board of Theranos. If you remember, Theranos was creating a new way of doing blood tests and they raised hundreds of millions of dollars. However, their technology didn't work and they hid the failures from everyone. The board had a lot of top military and political people, such as Henry Kissinger, James Mattis, and George Shultz among others. None of the people like that had any experience in developing medical testing equipment. They were likely hired for the board for other reasons, like their contacts, their advice on business, their ability to organize and execute, etc.

Trump holding back aid to Ukraine until they investigated Biden+Burisma would be like S. Korea holding back military compensation payments to the US until they investigated Mattis+Theranos. Even if those companies are corrupt, they are essentially unrelated to the money being held back. And just because a big name is on the board doesn't mean they got there because of corrupt reasons.

That is not a good analogy. None of the people you mentioned involved with Theranos had close family members in decision making positions in government. None of them had a child, parent, or spouse in Congress passing laws affecting Theranos. None of them had a child, parent, or spouse at the CDC making approval decisions. Thus, there was no conflict of interest.

Yes, those people had connections and they had name recognition. But that is different than conflict of interest within government.

If Ukraine was investigating Burisma while Hunter Biden was a highly paid board member, there was the possibility Hunter stood to lose out on millions of dollars, and, potentially be found guilty of a Ukrainian crime. Whether or not Hunter actually violated any Ukrainian laws was irrelevant, there was the possibility the investigation could result in at least significant loss of $$ to the Biden family.

So, enter Vice President Joe Biden. He withholds official US funds from Ukraine unless they immediately (within 6 hours) fire the prosecutor. Vice President Biden was operating in his official US government capacity as Vice President and as the person assigned as point duty by President Obama.

So now the question becomes why Joe did this? Was he thinking about his son's position? Was he thinking about the millions of dollars his son was being paid? Was he concerned of the possibility of a criminal charge against his son? Aren't those things all possible? Mightn't a rational adult conclude there appears to be a conflict of interest?

Now, Trump asking for investigations from Ukraine does not enrich him or his family. You are arguing he had a conflict of interest because Joe Biden might become the Democratic nominee in the 2020 election. So, your argument would be that anyone who is of the opposition party should not be investigated even when there is ample evidence of possible corruption. Except, of course, when the Dems were investigating Trump for Russian Collusion. Because, ???
Thor is offline  
post #1859 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 11:24 AM
Member
 
VladDracul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 3,734
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Hey, here's a theory, maybe Hunter Biden is so anti-corruption he went under cover at Burisma to root it out!
This plan was the genesis of none other than Joe Biden and the only black woman in the Senate. They tapped Rudy Giuliani as Hunter's handler. The impeachment hearing is really a ruse planned by Trump and his cousin Adam Schiff to draw attention by Russia while the whistle blower, who is a premier hacking genius, plants a trojan horse virus in Russian computers.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
VladDracul is online now  
post #1860 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 11:26 AM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,218
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson View Post
I would be all for eliminating this kind of conflict of interest. However, it is quite common for politician's relatives to be in positions where there is potential for this kind of conflict of interest. Hunter is in no way unique. There are many spouses, children, siblings, etc. of politicians who have this exact kind of conflict of interest. If Hunter is guilty just because there is this potential of conflict, then pretty much every politician is also in the same predicament. For example:
That is the very definition of Swamp. I agree. They almost all do this kind of thing. They are exempt from insider trading laws! So they buy/sell stocks with insider information as the people passing the laws. As you say, they have family members who have very lucrative positions.

In many cases it isn't overt corruption but it is certainly slimy.

When it can be shown the government official acted in favor of their relative it is in fact a crime of corruption.
Thor is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome