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post #1891 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 09:54 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
I thought the argument was that any lawbreaking in Hunter Biden's work had been debunked. If there was no investigation, no files, et cetera, how do we know?
The argument is that he was breaking the law and under investigation, so his dad stepped in and took care of it. However, there was no investigation and Shokin was fired because he wasn't investigating anyone or doing anything about any corruption.

In addition to that, there was nothing to flag anyone to investigate Hunter, as he wasn't doing anything wrong working for Burisma. There is just the Rep notion that, clearly he got the job because he was doing something wrong and only because of corruption. There is the basis of the whole Hunter Biden investigation.

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post #1892 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 10:02 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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If they instill a level of doubt, at the last minute, it affects the outcome.
That's what defense lawyering is about Georgygirl. Reasonable doubt walks. Like the late Johnnie Cochran said, "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit".

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
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post #1893 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 10:29 AM
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whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
That's what defense lawyering is about Georgygirl. Reasonable doubt walks. Like the late Johnnie Cochran said, "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit".


I was thinking more along the lines of 2016 election outcome. What’s that got to do with defense lawyering?


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post #1894 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 10:43 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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You clearly don't see the difference.

Which of those people you named who were on the Theranos board had a close relative in a position of power within a governmental agency which had some kind of authority over Theranos? Were those board members making millions of dollars being on that board, and did they have a close relative making sure any investigation was ended by having the investigator fired? And did their relative have the power to steer billions of dollars to Theranos?

Or, were those people simply high profile and probably with important connections to open the right doors?

Your example of S Korea holding back funds from the USA is laughably upside down from the USA giving billions to Ukraine. The scale of dollars between the 2 is as different as could be unless S Korea were sending us trillions of dollars.

Even so, ignoring that, what interest does S Korea have in any of those people or Theranos? Are the alleging violations of S Korean law by those people? If so, they have a legitimate reason to ask for US help in the investigation.

Furthermore, the US aid to Ukraine was not contractual. It was a gift. A very large gift. Under the Obama administration there were billions given which basically disappeared into the corrupt black hole, aka lined the vaults of whichever corrupt Ukrainians were able to snag it. Under Trump, the foreign aid was a gift which we have the right to put conditions on. That is how foreign relations work. It is always give something to get something.
What I was showing with the Theranos example is that it's common to have people on the board who have little or no experience with the core business. Some of the people mention Hunter's lack of oil and gas experience as evidence of corruption, but Theranos had many people on the board without medical equipment experience. I don't think anyone has said Mattis and the others were corrupt for taking positions on the board. I would guess their compensation included many stock options which would be very valuable if they went public. At one point, the company was valued at $9 billion.

And also with Theranos, it was a company with questionable business practices. Just like it would be extremely strange for S. Korea to care about corruption in some random US company, it's also strange for Trump to care about some random Ukrainian company. I haven't heard any legitimate reason as to why Burisma would have had any kind of control over the aid money. If concern over the aid being used improperly was the real reason, I would expect Trump to mention the companies more directly involved with the aid package, such as defense contractors and such.

I'm certainly *not* saying that there's not potential for conflict of interest or that it's impossible for Hunter to have been involved in corruption. I'm just pointing out that some of the things people are pointing to as evidence of corruption is not at all unusual or evidence of corruption.

And as I've mentioned before, no one really seems too concerned about any potential conflict of interest with any other relatives of politicians. The impression is that Hunter is the only one who has ever done this. But even in the Trump family, we can find instances of the Trump kids and other relatives being put in well-paying positions where they have little or no relevant experience. And there are instances where their companies have benefited, such as Ivanka getting trademark approval from China. So even though this potential of conflict with relatives of politicians is widespread, people seem to be saying Hunter is corrupt while ignoring all the other places where similar conflicts of interest exist.
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post #1895 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:02 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
The argument is that he was breaking the law and under investigation, so his dad stepped in and took care of it. However, there was no investigation and Shokin was fired because he wasn't investigating anyone or doing anything about any corruption.

In addition to that, there was nothing to flag anyone to investigate Hunter, as he wasn't doing anything wrong working for Burisma. There is just the Rep notion that, clearly he got the job because he was doing something wrong and only because of corruption. There is the basis of the whole Hunter Biden investigation.

Wrong on both assertions.

Hunter was not accused of breaking any Ukrainian laws, nor has Joe been accused of it. The issue is that VP Biden got a prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's employer. His son's very lucrative job was at risk due to the investigation. So, it appears VP Biden used his official position to help his son. That would be violation of US federal corruption laws.

Burisma was under investigation at the time of Shokin's firing. It is a tangled web including oligarchs and all kinds of corruption, even extending to Putin and the mining of rare elements in Russia. It involves a previous President of Ukraine, and all kinds of businesses including some in America. There was not an allegation of Hunter Biden being involved in activity being investigated, and he was not personally under investigation (as far as we know). But, he stood to lose a lot of money if Burisma went down. Not just his Burisma salary but also his consulting business in America which received millions in additional payments from Burisma (not sure what those were for...).

Shokin has recently testified and submitted an affadavit in European court in a case involving an oligarch. He states that he was investigating Burisma at the time he was fired, and that he was told by the Ukrainian President that he was fired because of it.

There is other direct evidence that the investigation was ongoing at the time he was fired from other sources.


from https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...-ukraine-story

Quote:
At the time, Shokin’s office was investigating Burisma. Shokin told me he was making plans to question Hunter Biden about $3 million in fees that Biden and his partner, Archer, collected from Burisma through their American firm. Documents seized by the FBI in an unrelated case confirm the payments, which in many months totaled more than $166,000.

Some media outlets have reported that, at the time Joe Biden forced the firing in March 2016, there were no open investigations. Those reports are wrong. A British-based investigation of Burisma's owner was closed down in early 2015 on a technicality when a deadline for documents was not met. But the Ukraine Prosecutor General's office still had two open inquiries in March 2016, according to the official case file provided me. One of those cases involved taxes; the other, allegations of corruption. Burisma announced the cases against it were not closed and settled until January 2017.

After I first reported it in a column, the New York Times and ABC News published similar stories confirming my reporting.
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In a newly sworn affidavit prepared for a European court, Shokin testified that when he was fired in March 2016, he was told the reason was that Biden was unhappy about the Burisma investigation. “The truth is that I was forced out because I was leading a wide-ranging corruption probe into Burisma Holdings, a natural gas firm active in Ukraine and Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, was a member of the Board of Directors,” Shokin testified.

“On several occasions President Poroshenko asked me to have a look at the case against Burisma and consider the possibility of winding down the investigative actions in respect of this company but I refused to close this investigation,” Shokin added
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Burisma’s own accounting records show that it paid tens of thousands of dollars while Hunter Biden served on the board of an American lobbying and public relations firm, Blue Star Strategies, run by Sally Painter and Karen Tramontano, who both served in President Bill Clinton’s administration.

Just days before Biden forced Shokin’s firing, Painter met with the No. 2 official at the Ukrainian embassy in Washington and asked to meet officials in Kiev around the same time that Joe Biden visited there. Ukrainian embassy employee Oksana Shulyar emailed Painter afterward: “With regards to the meetings in Kiev, I suggest that you wait until the next week when there is an expected vote of the government’s reshuffle.”

Ukraine’s Washington embassy confirmed the conversations between Shulyar and Painter but said the reference to a shakeup in Ukrainian government was not specifically referring to Shokin’s firing or anything to do with Burisma.

Painter then asked one of the Ukraine embassy’s workers to open the door for meetings with Ukraine’s prosecutors about the Burisma investigation, the memos show. Eventually, Blue Star would pay that Ukrainian official money for his help with the prosecutor's office.

At the time, Blue Star worked in concert with an American criminal defense lawyer, John Buretta, who was hired by Burisma to help address the case in Ukraine. The case was settled in January 2017 for a few million dollars in fines for alleged tax issues.

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post #1896 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:08 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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What I was showing with the Theranos example is that it's common to have people on the board who have little or no experience with the core business. Some of the people mention Hunter's lack of oil and gas experience as evidence of corruption, but Theranos had many people on the board without medical equipment experience.
Yet none of those people on the Theranos board had a close relative in a high government position which could dramatically affect Theranos' future.

Hunter Biden did. That is the corruption connection. Since Hunter had no relevant experience of any kind to offer Burisma, he must have offered something else. The only thing is his name. Even he admitted it in a tv interview!

So the next question is what benefit would the connection to his father provide Burisma? Since his father was the appointed head policy man in the Obama White House for Ukraine, there is at the very least a strong appearance of conflict of interest.

And then we have the firing of Shokin. There is the apparent corrupt act by VP Biden. His son stood to lose or gain a lot of money, millions of dollars, dependent on the investigation.

Now that is nothing at all like what you are saying with your example. Yes, boards hire all kinds of people all the time who don't have direct industry experience. I am not denying that. I am just saying that what happened with the Bidens goes miles past that point.
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post #1897 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:12 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

John Solomon.....great source for secret memos and conspiracies.
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post #1898 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:18 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
That's what defense lawyering is about Georgygirl. Reasonable doubt walks. Like the late Johnnie Cochran said, "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit".
Interesting that by extension, you're comparing Trump to OJ.

I think that comparison is pretty apt, actually.
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post #1899 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:23 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Yet none of those people on the Theranos board had a close relative in a high government position which could dramatically affect Theranos' future.

Hunter Biden did. That is the corruption connection. Since Hunter had no relevant experience of any kind to offer Burisma, he must have offered something else. The only thing is his name. Even he admitted it in a tv interview!

So the next question is what benefit would the connection to his father provide Burisma? Since his father was the appointed head policy man in the Obama White House for Ukraine, there is at the very least a strong appearance of conflict of interest.

And then we have the firing of Shokin. There is the apparent corrupt act by VP Biden. His son stood to lose or gain a lot of money, millions of dollars, dependent on the investigation.

Now that is nothing at all like what you are saying with your example. Yes, boards hire all kinds of people all the time who don't have direct industry experience. I am not denying that. I am just saying that what happened with the Bidens goes miles past that point.
Certainly Hunter has relevant experience to give to Burisma. Maybe not for oil and gas, but Hunter is a lawyer and gave legal advice. He doesn't have to have oil and gas experience to provide legal advice. He wasn't on the board strictly to be a name. And his compensation of $600k/yr doesn't seem out of line for a member of the board, especially since his name adds value.

I completely agree that there can be the potential for conflict of interest, but that potential alone is not enough to say he's guilty of corruption or that someone at the level of President would need to get involved in the issue. For the people saying Hunter is corrupt just because of this potential, none of those same people seem concerned about anyone else who is in similar situations with regards to potential for conflicts of interest.
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post #1900 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:23 AM
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whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Wrong on both assertions.



Hunter was not accused of breaking any Ukrainian laws, nor has Joe been accused of it. The issue is that VP Biden got a prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's employer. His son's very lucrative job was at risk due to the investigation. So, it appears VP Biden used his official position to help his son. That would be violation of US federal corruption laws.



Burisma was under investigation at the time of Shokin's firing. It is a tangled web including oligarchs and all kinds of corruption, even extending to Putin and the mining of rare elements in Russia. It involves a previous President of Ukraine, and all kinds of businesses including some in America. There was not an allegation of Hunter Biden being involved in activity being investigated, and he was not personally under investigation (as far as we know). But, he stood to lose a lot of money if Burisma went down. Not just his Burisma salary but also his consulting business in America which received millions in additional payments from Burisma (not sure what those were for...).



Shokin has recently testified and submitted an affadavit in European court in a case involving an oligarch. He states that he was investigating Burisma at the time he was fired, and that he was told by the Ukrainian President that he was fired because of it.



There is other direct evidence that the investigation was ongoing at the time he was fired from other sources.





from https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...-ukraine-story


We can run around citing he said/she said articles all day about this...

Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings.[13][33][34] However, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.[35][36] Also, the investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Hunter Biden joined the company.[37]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/3785620002

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post #1901 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:37 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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And yes, he did withhold the money... and rightfully so!

“He says he told Ukrainian leaders that the U.S. would withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees unless they fired Prosecutor General Shokin. President Trump and Rudy Giuliani have cited that boast repeatedly as proof that Biden admitted pushing for Shokin’s firing, even though Biden was calling for the prosecutor to be fired because he wasn’t pursuing corruption cases vigorously enough.”


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It was rightfully so for Biden? Since when did Biden care about another country pursuing corruption more vigorously? That is a stretch.

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post #1902 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:52 AM
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whistleblower complaint against Trump

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It was rightfully so for Biden? Since when did Biden care about another country pursuing corruption more vigorously? That is a stretch.

Since that was what he was there for?

Oct. 14, 2014 – Ramping up Ukraine anti-corruption forces

Ukraine’s Parliament passes a law establishing the National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU), a priority of anti-corruption campaigners who’d helped lead the revolution and of the U.S. government (led by Biden) and other international backers of Ukraine. The bureau, which is to include a special prosecutor for certain corruption cases, was created in part because of the recognized ineffectiveness and corruption of the Prosecutor General’s Office and the country’s judiciary. The country’s anti-corruption plans also include a special High Anti-Corruption Court, which Poroshenko and Parliament slow-rolled until domestic and foreign advocates again exerted pressure over the past year. In fact, the U.S. and Europe required the Ukrainian government to fund NABU in exchange for financial aid. NABU’s early years are an uphill battle in the face of documented efforts by Parliament and the Prosecutor General’s Office to undermine its work.

https://www.justsecurity.org/66271/t...d-ukrainegate/


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post #1903 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 11:52 AM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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John Solomon.....great source for secret memos and conspiracies.
Confirmed and reported by the NYT and ABC News ....
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post #1904 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 12:05 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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We can run around citing he said/she said articles all day about this...

Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings.[13][33][34] However, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.[35][36] Also, the investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Hunter Biden joined the company.[37]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/3785620002

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Obviously we need a real investigation into what happened. There is a lot of evidence from people directly involved that Shokin was investigating Burisma and a particular oligarch. It is acknowledged it was for events prior to Hunter's hiring.

But that doesn't change the fact that Hunter stood to lose millions of dollars if things went badly for Burisma, and it doesn't change the fact that his father used his official position as Vice President of the United States to get the prosecutor fired by threatening to withhold US aid money.

Since this is the seminal event which is alleged to be at the core of Trump's phone call asking for Ukraine to investigate what happened, and since the crux of the Democrat allegation is that Trump's request was improper since the Bidens did nothing wrong, it is necessary to fully investigate what did happen to see if Trump's request actually was justified.

Note that Trump covered a lot of other ground other than Shokin in his phone call. There are a lot of tentacles into the USA, DNC, and Russia related to that period of time in Ukraine.

So put them all under oath in public testimony. We all should see who did what, and who knew what when.
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post #1905 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 12:16 PM
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Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

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Certainly Hunter has relevant experience to give to Burisma. Maybe not for oil and gas, but Hunter is a lawyer and gave legal advice. He doesn't have to have oil and gas experience to provide legal advice. He wasn't on the board strictly to be a name. And his compensation of $600k/yr doesn't seem out of line for a member of the board, especially since his name adds value.

I completely agree that there can be the potential for conflict of interest, but that potential alone is not enough to say he's guilty of corruption or that someone at the level of President would need to get involved in the issue. For the people saying Hunter is corrupt just because of this potential, none of those same people seem concerned about anyone else who is in similar situations with regards to potential for conflicts of interest.
Even Hunter admitted he would not have been hired had his last name not been Biden! From Burisma's perspective there were countless others who could have offered the same level of business experience as Hunter. So what did they get out of hiring him instead of others? The connection to the Vice President.

This alone does not prove corruption. And nobody has shown evidence Hunter himself engaged in illegal activity. But his father, the Vice President was surely in a conflict of interest. And then his actions, not his son's actions, to get the prosecutor fired has every appearance of corrupt use of his official office to benefit his family.

Also, Hunter received $3 million in other payments from Burisma through his domestic company. There was a lot of money involved.

Since there is a long history of government insiders and White House insiders working against Trump, it is no surprise to me that he utilized men he trusted to be the contacts with Ukraine. Rudy went over and then he reported to the DoJ (or State Department, I can't recall which). He didn't report secretly to Trump, he reported to officials outside the White House. AG Barr was also a contact.

I would view all this differently if Trump had been working secretly, and if he had been seeking salacious materials. Like nude photos or stories about prostitutes peeing on the bed, or seeking dirt on people involved in the campaigns or who are advisors to Democrat hopefuls. That is political dirt. And it isn't even illegal to do oppo research. But had he been looking for political dirt it would be very different than seeking investigations into illegal corrupt activities by high government officials.
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