whistleblower complaint against Trump - Page 93 - Talk About Marriage
Politics This is the place to discuss politics

User Tag List

 2019Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #1381 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 326
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Its not much of a stretch to argue Trump was leveraging his position to get the anti-corruption activities and statement functioning up to speed as intended.

...
Therefore its not unreasonable for Trump to think the current Ukrainian administrator may be avoiding or slow playing recommendations by the National Agency for Corruption Prevention, as the previous administration had.
It strains credulity to think that was Trump's concern. It is a big stretch (you are gaslighting yourself). Grasping at straws by claiming Trump has motives that are entirely out of character for him. Self-gaslighting: https://aleteia.org/2018/05/09/do-yo...ight-yourself/ "I think some of us start self-gaslighting when we’ve been gaslighted so many times by other people that it becomes the only way we really see the world. "

Vlad, do you really believe that was Trump's motive? Trump is just concerned about corruption, and it has nothing to do with Biden running in 2020, or trying to pin Russian election hacking in 2016 on Ukraine?

If you believe Trump cares about corruption in Ukraine in general, why did Trump repeatedly try to cut the US funding for the Ukraine anti-corruption programs?

Why didn't Trump mention 'corruption' in his phone call with Ukraine?

Trump did not ever mention Ukrainian corruption when talking with Zelensky. Trump only complained about Crowdstrike (debunked conspiracy), the Bidens, and the loss of the corrupt prosecutor Shokin, plus Mueller and our own ambassador Yovanovitch. Trump said:

"I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has.it There are a lot. of things that went on, the· whole situation .. I think you'e surrounding yourself with some of the same people. .. that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine.
[...]
I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that’s really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved.
The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it..."

-
Note that Biden worked to get rid of the corrupt prosecutor Shokin, the one that Trump said was "very good". The US and the EU position and official foreign policy on this matter is that this prosecutor Viktor Shokin was very corrupt himself and not doing his job prosecuting the corruption. Shokin was the reason there were no prosecutions.

"It wasn't because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden's son; it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.
Shokin's inaction prompted international calls for his ouster and ultimately resulted in his removal by Ukraine's parliament.

Without pressure from Joe Biden, European diplomats, the International Monetary Fund and other international organizations, Shokin would not have been fired, said Daria Kaleniuk, co-founder and executive director of the Anti Corruption Action Centre in Kiev. 'Civil society organizations in Ukraine were pressing for his resignation,' Kaleniuk said, 'but no one would have cared if there had not been voices from outside this country calling on him to go.'"

Another corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor was Yuriy Lutsenko, he was the guy that kept changing his story back and forth regarding Burisma so I doubt Trump would trust him, so Trump probably meant Shokin. "Rudy Giuliani [has] claimed – falsely – that the investigation was stopped as a result of political pressure applied by Joe Biden. Until last week, Lutsenko publicly supported that assessment. But he has since aggressively walked back that support, saying in several media interviews that during his time as prosecutor general he saw no evidence of wrongdoing by either Biden."

Maybe Trump wanted Zelensky to fire Lutsenko, which Zelensky did. Not such a loss since Lutsenko had been involved in several scandals, not a clean guy.

Lutsenko at first was cooperating with Rudy Giuliani's scheme until Zelensky was elected, and at that point Lutsenko started pushing back against Giuliani and saying he didn't want Ukraine involved:

"Lutsenko said he had urged Giuliani to launch a U.S. inquiry and go to court if he had any evidence but not to use Ukraine to conduct a political vendetta that could affect the U.S. election. Lutsenko said he met Giuliani twice in person and had numerous conversations with him on the phone. He described the former New York mayor as obsessed with possible misconduct by Biden or his son Hunter."

So yeah, it was about the Bidens, not vague 'corruption'.


Last edited by kari2; 11-07-2019 at 05:48 PM.
kari2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1382 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 326
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Also, if as Vlad claims, it was just general Ukrainian corruption that Trump was concerned with, why did Sondland and Volker tell Ukraine they had to include the specific words 'Burisma' and '2016' in their public announcement? (according to the text messages they turned over to the US House inquiry)

Ukraine sent the US an initial draft of the announcement that was more general and didn't include those words, but Giuliani said it wouldn't suffice, that Ukraine had to include those particular words.
kari2 is offline  
post #1383 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 05:51 PM
Member
 
VladDracul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 3,755
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Kari, if you read sometime written beside the journalists, and signed off by the Dems, that feign disgust at the fact that President Trump would dare to express an interest in investigating Burisma, remember that there are questions that deserve to be answered here. Namely, if Biden knew the details of his son’s latest gig and salary and whether Joe Biden regarded the last name “Biden” as an important part of his son securing that role. You may feel this has been put to rest, which I doubt you'd feel if Hunter's name was Trump. A lot of people are not. I have to wonder why the Dems are fighting so hard to stop any further investigation.
I assume you're not an attorney but does the concept of reasonable doubt mean anything to you. You seem to want only your perception applied to information so far and willing to string the guy up with only the prosecution's side of it. You haven't even heard, and will probably refuse to hear, the defense.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.

Last edited by VladDracul; 11-07-2019 at 06:09 PM.
VladDracul is online now  
 
post #1384 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 06:30 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 403
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Vlad, what is the probable cause for US agencies to investigate Burisma? To ask a foreign country to investigate a US citizen, that that country had already investigated and cleared? What about for bypassing all formal channels, and sending a personal lawyer to carry out a 'shadow policy'?

Here's the rough timeline:

Burisma did possibly shady stuff.
Hunter Biden joins board
The Ukraine prosecutor general - Shokin refuses to investigate Burisma for the stuff done before Hunter joined the board
The entire Western world pressures Ukraine for Shokin's firing
Biden delivers the message from IMF and western allies to Ukraine, Fire Shokin or no aid.
Shokin is fired
New prosecutor general is named and opens investigation into Burisma (notice Biden's action potentially made things worse for Hunter, not better)
That prosecutor general reaches a deal with Burisma, ends investigation. (notice this happed after Trump is in office, so Biden had no government influence at that time)

That prosecutor general cleared Hunter Biden of all wrongdoing. Multiple times.
There is no evidence Joe Biden did anything wrong in any of it.

Reasonable Doubt is a concept for jury trial. Not for a grand jury investigation. At this stage, we are more like a grand jury than a trial. The trial will happen in the Senate where anything exculpatory can be presented.
DownButNotOut is online now  
post #1385 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 326
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Kari, if you read sometime written beside the journalists, and signed off by the Dems, that feign disgust at the fact that President Trump would dare to express an interest in investigating Burisma, remember that there are questions that deserve to be answered here. Namely, if Biden knew the details of his son’s latest gig and salary and whether Joe Biden regarded the last name “Biden” as an important part of his son securing that role. You may feel this has been put to rest, which I doubt you'd feel if Hunter's name was Trump. A lot of people are not. I have to wonder why the Dems are fighting so hard to stop any further investigation.
I assume you're not an attorney but does the concept of reasonable doubt mean anything to you. You seem to want only your perception applied to information so far and willing to string the guy up with only the prosecution's side of it. You haven't even heard, and will probably refuse to hear, the defense.
Vlad, I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what you say above. Of course Hunter was hired because of his last name, and that is gross. I am always disgusted when people use their family name or connections to get a job they are not qualified for (Hunter Biden, Jared Kushner). And I don't respect Joe Biden for not telling Hunter 'Don't do that!' If we can believe Joe, he stayed out of it and let Hunter do his thing. I think it was wrong and dumb of Joe, but not a crime.

It would be fine if Ukraine wanted to investigate Burisma (I believe there was corruption there but mostly before Hunter was hired). I don't care about Hunter Biden, and if he did something illegal, lock 'em up. What I have a big problem with is Trump extorting Ukraine to do it to benefit himself personally. Withholding the military aid to Ukraine is against the US interests. Trump is on Russia's side and not Ukraine's.

Think about how Giuliani smeared the honest US ambassador Yonakovitch (who was standing in the way of his schemes), and got her fired. That is against US national interests. He got Sean Hannity to trash her on TV ("Top U.S. diplomat George Kent said in his impeachment testimony released Thursday that the State Department’s counselor contacted Fox News host Sean Hannity this spring to ask him to stop spreading smears about Marie Yovanovitch") US Rep. Pete Sessions was bribed (with Russian illicit funds) to smear her (according to DOJ prosecutors), she was called in the middle of the night to take the next plane for her own safety. Is this all OK with you?

So what is Trump's defense, please tell me, I'm all ears. Because he cares about Ukraine corruption?

I don't believe for one second that Trump did what he did because he gives a fig about Ukrainian corruption, honestly do you? He wants to bring the corrupt pro-Russian people back into Zelensky's circle. Trump was complaining that the very corrupt prosecutor Shokin was fired, the one that hardly lifted a finger to investigate any corruption include Burisma. Giuliani is trying to get people to push out the honest new CEO of the Ukrainian gas company, which would undo some of the good progress the US officials had made in the last few years. I do care about corruption, and this disgusts me.

Are you in favor of what Giuliani was doing? He was paid $500,000 to do this Ukraine gas company thing (and maybe the Yonakovitch ouster also), and the $$ seems to have come from the Russian mobster Firtash.

I believe Trump wanted to hurt Joe Biden's chances in the 2020 race (either in primary or general election). Also Trump wanted to somehow be able to blame some Ukrainians plus DNC for election hacking (Crowdstrike), and then say Russia is innocent so he can lift all the sanctions against Russia (because Trump has some shady close relationship with Putin and Russia that I don't understand). I don't think Trump values our Constitution or system of government, I don't see evidence of that, seems he would prefer the Russian model of autocracy and no free press, no meddling Congress. But we will never know for sure what are Trump's real motives and thoughts (unless he has a Colonel Jessup moment), we can only judge (whether he should be impeached) by his actions via documentation and witnesses.

Once the Senate has the trial, Trump will be able to make a defense, call witnesses, cross-examine witnesses, submit or subpoena documents. I think even in the public House hearings (starting next week), Trump will have also some of these rights (but during House hearings, his calling witnesses or his subpoenas need to be approved by the House committee). His lawyers can question witnesses during the public House hearings.

I will be recording and watching all of the hearings so I will hear Trump's defense. I kind of doubt I will hear anything except Jim Jordan, Devin Nunes, Matt Gaetz, and Mark Meadows trying to deflect by talking about Carter Page FISA warrants, deep state, spygate, 'illegitimate impeachment process', etc.. The whistleblower will be smeared. And we will hear a lot of angry rants from Lindsey Graham when it gets to the Senate. That is not a defense. A defense would be if Trump could show evidence that he did not ask Zelensky to do something re Bidens or DNC, and he did not smear Yonakovitch.

Pretty soon Barr is going to make his big announcement about whatever he is going to indict people for. He will try to time it to maximally distract from the impeachment hearings. I'm guessing Barr will indict some FBI and CIA agents that cut corners, maybe searching Snowden databases on Trump's campaign people without authorization. Barr may well prove that some FBI/CIA people did various things illegally, but that does not excuse Trump's crimes. It does not excuse or negate what Russia did and is still doing (along with other adversary countries) to hack our US elections (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...sia-china-iran ).

Russia is still attacking our elections for the 2020 race:

11/5/19:
"The leaders of seven federal agencies joined together Tuesday to warn Americans about attempts by foreign nations to influence voters and interfere with the 2020 presidential election in an effort to undermine US democracy."

10/21/19: "Facebook on Monday disclosed it had taken down four new foreign interference operations originating from Iran and Russia, including one targeting the US 2020 presidential elections that appears to be linked to the Russian troll agency, the Internet Research Agency (IRA)."

I predict Fox News will cover almost 24/7 whatever Barr comes up with, and will hardly show the impeachment hearings (except to show the Republicans attacking all sorts of things unrelated to what Trump and Giuliani did with Ukraine).

Last edited by kari2; 11-08-2019 at 12:08 AM.
kari2 is offline  
post #1386 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 326
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

double post deleted
kari2 is offline  
post #1387 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 12:28 AM
Member
 
VladDracul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 3,755
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownButNotOut View Post
That prosecutor general reaches a deal with Burisma, ends investigation. (notice this happed after Trump is in office, so Biden had no government influence at that time)

That prosecutor general cleared Hunter Biden of all wrongdoing. Multiple times.
Until most recently, the system in Ukraine was not just corrupt; it ran on corruption, and still does to a great extent today. If Trump, or any other president, in not concerned with corruption in a country we subsidize with our tax money, they ought to be. Again, introducing anti-corruption laws is a key component of the international aid for Ukraine, and crucially was one of the conditions that it had to meet as part of its $17.5 billion bailout package from the IMF.
Liza Ermolenko economist at Barclays, told CNBC on April 30 this year, “Any about-turn in the anti-corruption reform would be a huge blow to Ukraine’s relationship with the IMF and other Western partners ”

I said above its worth noting that the Prosecutor Generals Office failed to properly investigate corruption crimes allegedly committed by high-level politicians and senior public servants under Viktor Yanukovych regime. Not a single corruption accusation was submitted to the court and not a single senior official was imprisoned for corruption related offenses in 2015-2016. That doesn't give me much confidence in any investigation, albeit Hunter and his old man may be and probably are innocent. I don't think you can tell me it doesn't ping your suspicions when the VPs inexperienced son get $50 grand a month to sit on the board of an energy company up to its neck in shady dealings.

Is it ok to request a foreign governments help in a criminal justice investigation? Yep, its done all the time.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
VladDracul is online now  
post #1388 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 326
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Until most recently, the system in Ukraine was not just corrupt; it ran on corruption, and still does to a great extent today. If Trump, or any other president, in not concerned with corruption in a country we subsidize with our tax money, they ought to be. Again, introducing anti-corruption laws is a key component of the international aid for Ukraine, and crucially was one of the conditions that it had to meet as part of its $17.5 billion bailout package from the IMF.
Liza Ermolenko economist at Barclays, told CNBC on April 30 this year, “Any about-turn in the anti-corruption reform would be a huge blow to Ukraine’s relationship with the IMF and other Western partners ”

I said above its worth noting that the Prosecutor Generals Office failed to properly investigate corruption crimes allegedly committed by high-level politicians and senior public servants under Viktor Yanukovych regime. Not a single corruption accusation was submitted to the court and not a single senior official was imprisoned for corruption related offenses in 2015-2016. That doesn't give me much confidence in any investigation, albeit Hunter and his old man may be and probably are innocent. I don't think you can tell me it doesn't ping your suspicions when the VPs inexperienced son get $50 grand a month to sit on the board of an energy company up to its neck in shady dealings.

Is it ok to request a foreign governments help in a criminal justice investigation? Yep, its done all the time.
Vlad, I agree with all your statements about corruption. And yeah, I think Burisma was shady and corrupt, at least it was in the past. It was unethical of Burisma to hire the unqualified Hunter Biden, and unethical for Hunter to take the job.

Do you honestly think Trump cares about corruption though? As I said, Trump wanted to bring back the corrupt pro-Russian people in Ukraine back into Zelensky's circle, Giuliani was trying to oust the honest CEO of the gas company, and Trump tried to cut funding for anti-corruption programs in Ukraine. You are skipping over this, and not answering this question. It is hard for me to fathom you can believe Trump is worried about corruption, when all the evidence points to him wanting to make Ukraine MORE corrupt.

Vlad, have you not noticed that Trump has been shady his whole adult life: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...red-trump.html

US courts have found him guilty of racial discrimination, a sham University, and a sham charity. The government settled those cases by imposing huge fines on Trump. He hung around with mobsters and shady corrupt people like Roy Cohn and Roger Stone, and nowadays Giuliani.

Russian oligarchs have paid Trump tens of millions of dollars for who knows what in exchange: https://www.newsweek.com/trump-sold-...ocratic-802613

>Is it ok to request a foreign governments help in a criminal justice investigation?
Only if it is in the US national interests. In this case, it was for Trump's personal interests. His withholding aid to Ukraine makes Ukraine's democracy less safe, and is against US interests. Giuliani, Hannity, Parnas, Trump, and Pete Sessions smearing the innocent US ambassador (and bribing US congressmen with Russian mob money to do so!), is that OK with you, you think we do it all the time? You are ignoring this question too.

Is it fine to squeeze a foreign country (holding up 400 million dollars in military aid) to investigate a US citizen who happens to be one of your main political rivals? Vlad, I tried to answer your questions, I'd appreciate if you don't just gloss over mine.

Last edited by kari2; 11-08-2019 at 03:49 AM.
kari2 is offline  
post #1389 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 326
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Sigh, double post deleted again, I always hit the wrong button when editing.
kari2 is offline  
post #1390 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 07:04 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 403
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post

Is it ok to request a foreign governments help in a criminal justice investigation? Yep, its done all the time.
What investigation? The DOJ was not investigating anything. If they were, there are proper channels governments go through to request aid from others. Trump wasn’t asking for aid in an investigation. From the testimony of George Kent released yesterday:

“POTUS wanted nothing less than President Zelensky to go to the microphone and say investigations, Biden and Clinton”

That isn’t asking for aid in an investigation. That is asking for a smear on both his last and potential next campaign opponents.

DownButNotOut is online now  
post #1391 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 08:16 AM
Member
 
VladDracul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 3,755
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Two things should have never happened if either Biden or Trump wanted to avoid the appearance of using their position for them, or their family, to profit off a foreign government. Trump should have never mentioned an extending investigations of Biden and, Biden, at a minimum, should have recused himself from any dealings with Ukraine. But all that is hindsight. Now both the cats have a stigma as far as millions of U.S. citizens are concerned that no investigation or impeachment hearings will alleviate.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
VladDracul is online now  
post #1392 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 09:08 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: North East US
Posts: 616
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by kari2 View Post
Vlad, I agree with all your statements about corruption. And yeah, I think Burisma was shady and corrupt, at least it was in the past. It was unethical of Burisma to hire the unqualified Hunter Biden, and unethical for Hunter to take the job.

Do you honestly think Trump cares about corruption though? As I said, Trump wanted to bring back the corrupt pro-Russian people in Ukraine back into Zelensky's circle, Giuliani was trying to oust the honest CEO of the gas company, and Trump tried to cut funding for anti-corruption programs in Ukraine. You are skipping over this, and not answering this question. It is hard for me to fathom you can believe Trump is worried about corruption, when all the evidence points to him wanting to make Ukraine MORE corrupt.

Vlad, have you not noticed that Trump has been shady his whole adult life: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...red-trump.html

US courts have found him guilty of racial discrimination, a sham University, and a sham charity. The government settled those cases by imposing huge fines on Trump. He hung around with mobsters and shady corrupt people like Roy Cohn and Roger Stone, and nowadays Giuliani.

Russian oligarchs have paid Trump tens of millions of dollars for who knows what in exchange: https://www.newsweek.com/trump-sold-...ocratic-802613

>Is it ok to request a foreign governments help in a criminal justice investigation?
Only if it is in the US national interests. In this case, it was for Trump's personal interests. His withholding aid to Ukraine makes Ukraine's democracy less safe, and is against US interests. Giuliani, Hannity, Parnas, Trump, and Pete Sessions smearing the innocent US ambassador (and bribing US congressmen with Russian mob money to do so!), is that OK with you, you think we do it all the time? You are ignoring this question too.

Is it fine to squeeze a foreign country (holding up 400 million dollars in military aid) to investigate a US citizen who happens to be one of your main political rivals? Vlad, I tried to answer your questions, I'd appreciate if you don't just gloss over mine.

And here is an article that disputes nearly everything said in this thread about Burisma, Biden, Shokin, and the Ukraine

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...-ukraine-story
Always Learning is offline  
post #1393 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:03 PM
Member
 
Marduk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 17,981
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Learning View Post
And here is an article that disputes nearly everything said in this thread about Burisma, Biden, Shokin, and the Ukraine

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...-ukraine-story
It literally doesn’t matter if Biden is guilty. Which has never been demonstrated or really accused by anyone with any credibility.

Trump bribed Ukraine to help him in the 2020 election.

You’re either ok with that, or you’re not.
Marduk is online now  
post #1394 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 6,799
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
It literally doesn’t matter if Biden is guilty. Which has never been demonstrated or really accused by anyone with any credibility.

Trump bribed Ukraine to help him in the 2020 election.

You’re either ok with that, or you’re not.
Moreover,

1. Trump is defying Congress which is co-equal branch to the execuive
2. He is using taxpayers' dollars for personal / non governmental use.
3. He is putting the US's national security in jeopardy by
1.withholding funds from an ally who is fighting against an enemy country
2. engaging in such an underhanded plot it will be difficult for other countries to trust the US.
3. using outsiders / non career people to override US policy that was already agreed to. Making vague threats against the physical safety of Yovanavitch is despicable. Giuliani has become the very people he put in jail.
NextTimeAround is online now  
post #1395 of 2208 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:29 PM
Member
 
VladDracul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 3,755
Re: whistleblower complaint against Trump

Marduk, when its proven its a high crime and misdemeanor and proven beyond a reasonable doubt I give my opinion whether its worthy of impeachment. Beyond that, I'll handle it in the voting booth. I won't let the "the coup has started" and "we'll pick the witnesses", Dems sway me.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
VladDracul is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome