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post #331 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 09:27 AM
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Re: Climate Change

The problem is that with climate, as with most divisive political topics, there are extremely noisy idiots on both sides. So each can point at the other side as crazy / uninformed / evil, whatever - because there are such nice examples.

The alarmists are making stuff up. The people claiming humans have no effect on climate are ignoring a lot of good science. The truth is extremely complex and the people who distill that for the non-specialist audience are difficult to trust.




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You must admit that alarmists and opportunists are making very unscientific claims for less than scientifically credible motivations?


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post #332 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 09:31 AM
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Re: Climate Change

Everyone loves climate solutions that don't require them to personally change their behavior significantly.

Wind power is great until its next door. People who don't travel want to limit it for others. Vegetarians want to eliminate meat eating. People who don't want children want to discourage population growth. People who can commute by public or bike want to reduce cars. Energy researchers want to develop new technology.

Just human nature - but it may keep us from solving this.



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Travel accounts for ~15% of global human CO2 emissions annually. While I agree we should work on ways to reduce that, putting the problem of climate change at the feet of a person traveling to see family is foolish and ultimately pointless. It is sort of an ad hominem, that deflects the problem and never deals with anything.

Even if no one ever used a car, plane, or boat again, we still have 85% of the problem to deal with.

If you actually want to lessen the travel sourced pollution, then you should support government and industry initiatives to make cleaner transport. Not blame someone that needs to get from point A to point B.
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post #333 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 10:26 AM
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Re: Climate Change

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Everyone loves climate solutions that don't require them to personally change their behavior significantly.

Wind power is great until its next door. People who don't travel want to limit it for others. Vegetarians want to eliminate meat eating. People who don't want children want to discourage population growth. People who can commute by public or bike want to reduce cars. Energy researchers want to develop new technology.

Just human nature - but it may keep us from solving this.
I am not saying that I don't work on it to avoid it impacting me. I am saying that blaming the end user for using the only options they have is not a solution.

Building public infrastructure, backing clean energy, backing cleaner transport, those are the things that make a difference, not scolding anyone for eating beef or driving to work.
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post #334 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Travel accounts for ~15% of global human CO2 emissions annually. While I agree we should work on ways to reduce that, putting the problem of climate change at the feet of a person traveling to see family is foolish and ultimately pointless. It is sort of an ad hominem, that deflects the problem and never deals with anything.

Even if no one ever used a car, plane, or boat again, we still have 85% of the problem to deal with.

If you actually want to lessen the travel sourced pollution, then you should support government and industry initiatives to make cleaner transport. Not blame someone that needs to get from point A to point B.
You really don't want to sacrifice. You want others to sacrifice for you.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson
"Youth is wasted on the young". - George Bernard Shaw

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post #335 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 10:40 AM
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Re: Climate Change

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You really don't want to sacrifice. You want others to sacrifice for you.
Way to keep beating the drum that doesn't make any progress.

I am more than willing to pay, to use, to be a part of society that does these things, but I don't fly, I drive an efficient car, I stay home, I live near my family, I recycle, I have looked into a solar system for my house. What more would you like me to do?

Again, all of this will not make a dent into anything unless we tackle problems with a top down mindset of bigger solutions.
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post #336 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Way to keep beating the drum that doesn't make any progress.

I am more than willing to pay, to use, to be a part of society that does these things, but I don't fly, I drive an efficient car, I stay home, I live near my family, I recycle, I have looked into a solar system for my house. What more would you like me to do?

Again, all of this will not make a dent into anything unless we tackle problems with a top down mindset of bigger solutions.
Well, why are you arguing with me, then? Why are you sticking up for the polluters?

You have not proven there is an issue with the climate. I've proven CO2 has nothing to do with global warming. Methane dissipates and breaks down very quickly. I simply don't understand this overwhelming obsession with imaginary problems.

If you want to make a significant difference, look at developing nations and have them comply with our standards to date.

Other than that and reducing aircraft travel for mass transit, you have no issues. I guess you want to pay for those developing nations to reduce emissions? I don't know. You are quite virulent to anyone who disagrees and has proof.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson
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post #337 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 11:52 AM
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Re: Climate Change

You haven't proven anything. I am not sure where you stopped reading in this thread, but no one has proven "CO2 has nothing to do with global warming".

I do not understand the mindset of not dealing with actual, real, problems. You can keep sticking your head in the sand and pointing at obscure, outcast, off-topic, scientist and complain about some conspiracy to profit off of being cleaner, but that doesn't change any of the actual science that has shown clear connections to things.

The US dominates the world in CO2 per capita. Sure we might be cleaner in some things, but we consume on a level unparalleled in the world. So, you can get off your high horse of other countries being the issue. We are the highest per capita by a long shot, and 2nd highest in the world total. Only China is higher in volume, but with a much much much higher population.
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post #338 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 04:54 PM
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Re: Climate Change

As far as I know, CO2 and the greenhouse effect are well understood. The basic greenhouse effect, (a thick absorbing layer of gas) was an undergraduate homework problem where I went to school

there are lots of complicated secondary effects that could amplify or diminish the CO2 effect, but the basic physics is very solid and CO2 levels are increasing. Is there a paper somewhere that claims that the seconday effects a large enough to completely cancel the 1st order effect of CO2 levels?



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Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
Well, why are you arguing with me, then? Why are you sticking up for the polluters?

You have not proven there is an issue with the climate. I've proven CO2 has nothing to do with global warming. Methane dissipates and breaks down very quickly. I simply don't understand this overwhelming obsession with imaginary problems.

If you want to make a significant difference, look at developing nations and have them comply with our standards to date.

Other than that and reducing aircraft travel for mass transit, you have no issues. I guess you want to pay for those developing nations to reduce emissions? I don't know. You are quite virulent to anyone who disagrees and has proof.
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post #339 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Climate Change

"Guys", I posted a link to a study on windows for residential dwellings with CO2 sealed between panes. If it had any kind of effect that would seal out the sun or cause anything to warm, they didn't find it. It did nothing.

You'll have to look for it. Someone didn't like what I posted and immediately attacked it. As far as I was concerned, they used more rhetoric and personal attacks to prove their points.

I think you should look for it and read it. Then, form your own opinions. I've posted several things which were disregarded, though true.

Do you know what year scientists said the earth's climate would be irreversible? 1992 at the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, they said we had ten more years.

So, it's 17 years too late. Don't waste your money. We can't reverse the climate.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson
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post #340 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 10:41 AM
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Re: Climate Change

Your paper doesn't say what you think it does, and it has already been discussed before in this thread.

Here is the full paper, rather than the cherry picked editorial that does not really discuss the point of the paper: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6sn232sk

The measurements were looking at the couple effects of conduction and radiation, which really makes this not applicable to climate models. Even their conclusion points to CO2 supporting climate change in two places:

For larger vertical gap widths where energy savings from the use of infrared absorbing gases may begin to accrue...
and

Modeling the absorption of common infrared absorbing gasses...
The first statement shows that given space, they will have an effect and the second shows that they choose CO2, because 'THEY KNOW' it absorbs infrared energy.

Also, as pointed out earlier one of those scientists was actually on the IPCC.

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post #341 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 10:47 AM
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Re: Climate Change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Your paper doesn't say what you think it does, and it has already been discussed before in this thread.

Here is the full paper, rather than the cherry picked editorial that does not really discuss the point of the paper: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6sn232sk

The measurements were looking at the couple effects of conduction and radiation, which really makes this not applicable to climate models. Even their conclusion points to CO2 supporting climate change in two places:

For larger vertical gap widths where energy savings from the use of infrared absorbing gases may begin to accrue...
and

Modeling the absorption of common infrared absorbing gasses...
The first statement shows that given space, they will have an effect and the second shows that they choose CO2, because 'THEY KNOW' it absorbs infrared energy.

Also, as pointed out earlier one of those scientists was actually on the IPCC.
Twenty-three pages of debate between people who accept they do not have expert knowledge themselves and those who refuse to accept that their ignorance should take away from their proouncements.
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post #342 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-09-2019, 08:33 PM
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Re: Climate Change

Well, it's official, Santa has to move due to shrinking ice sheet in Arctic.


I'm glad a ''scientist'' told me hot causes cold.....cuz I'm stoopid!
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post #343 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-09-2019, 10:33 PM
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Re: Climate Change

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Well, it's official, Santa has to move due to shrinking ice sheet in Arctic.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ-m3CnRzEo



I'm glad a ''scientist'' told me hot causes cold.....cuz I'm stoopid!


Oh brothers, talk about junk science. But, thatís cool folks can believe what they want based on misinformation based on the scale of time. Nice that he fails to actually show 70s, 80s and 90s data.


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post #344 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 05:59 PM
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Re: Climate Change

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Well, it's official, Santa has to move due to shrinking ice sheet in Arctic.
The more important question is whether or not a flat earth makes Santa's job easier or harder. Probably easier, insofar as any population believing in a flat earth probably has no trouble believing in Santa, and we all know that's what powers his sleigh.

Q.E.D.
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post #345 of 575 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 10:38 AM
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Re: Climate Change

I don't understand. Windows are thin, so there is only a small amount of CO2. The atmosphere is about 1/2000 CO2, so a 1cm think window is like 20M or atmosphere - much less than the thickness of the atmosphere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
"Guys", I posted a link to a study on windows for residential dwellings with CO2 sealed between panes. If it had any kind of effect that would seal out the sun or cause anything to warm, they didn't find it. It did nothing.

You'll have to look for it. Someone didn't like what I posted and immediately attacked it. As far as I was concerned, they used more rhetoric and personal attacks to prove their points.

I think you should look for it and read it. Then, form your own opinions. I've posted several things which were disregarded, though true.

Do you know what year scientists said the earth's climate would be irreversible? 1992 at the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, they said we had ten more years.

So, it's 17 years too late. Don't waste your money. We can't reverse the climate.
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