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post #31 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 06:28 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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How exactly does it work, though? To get to tell a woman what to do with herself, while there's actual kids needing actual help?

If I were to make it about someone else getting abortions, that would in fact be whataboutism. What I'm pointing out is that if it's about the kids, then people would actually be doing something about kids.

But this isn't at all about that, is it? Do kids not matter if they're not born in your country? If that's your line, then why does it matter if people in Australia get abortions?

Again, what about the literal frozen fertilized eggs in fertility centers all across your nation? Are these theoretical children that are being held hostage?

Abortion has always been about women's rights.
I usually read your posts with interest but this is a straw man argument at best or else you’re being obtuse.
Woman who are at risk of developing life threatening illnesses which may need chemotherapeutic treatment have eggs frozen so that they may still have children in the future.
You associating this with abortion is an insult to these women, nothing less.


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post #32 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 06:28 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I have sponsored many children and care about them all, pre-birth or after birth. I also care that we are killing the most vulnerable members of society in horrific ways with out a qualm. Its just tragic and certainly nothing to celebrate.
That's fantastic.

And if one of them got pregnant by accident at say 20, what do you think would be best for one of them the day after it happened? Would you think it good that she got to make the decision, or do you think you should get to make it for her?
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post #33 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 06:30 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I usually read your posts with interest but this is a straw man argument at best or else you’re being obtuse.
Woman who are at risk of developing life threatening illnesses which may need chemotherapeutic treatment have eggs frozen so that they may still have children in the future.
You associating this with abortion is an insult to these women, nothing less.
I thought it was about a fertilized egg's right to life though? Are those less worthy than ones in a womb? Or is it more about the womb?

In vitro fertilizes a lot of eggs and not every one gets a shot at being implanted. Is that murder?

How is that a straw dog?
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post #34 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 06:48 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

I have mixed feelings about abortion, but coming from a third world country where poverty and violence is very common, I'd rather not see more babies being born in such awful environments. Kids over there are victims of abandonment, child abuse, child trafficking, child labor, hunger, violence; it's beyond sad. And only a very small number of orphans get adopted. Who knows what happens with the majority of them.

I think it's the same for many kids in the US as well.

Personally, I couldn't have an abortion, but at the same time my life is ok and I don't need to have one. I can't judge other woman's decision because many don't live my reality and don't have the same privileges I have.

Different people, different realities, different outcomes.
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post #35 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 06:57 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I have mixed feelings about abortion, but coming from a third world country where poverty and violence is very common, I'd rather not see more babies being born in such awful environments. Kids over there are victims of abandonment, child abuse, child trafficking, child labor, hunger, violence; it's beyond sad. And only a very small number of orphans get adopted. Who knows what happens with the majority of them.

I think it's the same for many kids in the US as well.

Personally, I couldn't have an abortion, but at the same time my life is ok and I don't need to have one. I can't judge other woman's decision because many don't live my reality and don't have the same privileges I have.

Different people, different realities, different outcomes.
Very well said. Thank you for this.
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post #36 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 06:57 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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How exactly does it work, though? To get to tell a woman what to do with herself, while there's actual kids needing actual help?

If I were to make it about someone else getting abortions, that would in fact be whataboutism. What I'm pointing out is that if it's about the kids, then people would actually be doing something about kids.

But this isn't at all about that, is it? Do kids not matter if they're not born in your country? If that's your line, then why does it matter if people in Australia get abortions?

Again, what about the literal frozen fertilized eggs in fertility centers all across your nation? Are these theoretical children that are being held hostage?

Abortion has always been about women's rights.
So its ok to kill babies just because there are other children who may need help? Really? Also loads and loads of people work to help children in our own countries and abroad. Also loads adopt and foster children and sponsor poor children abroad.
Part of my hating the killing of babies is to prevent those women from making a tragic mistake. You cant kill your own child and it not affect you eventually.
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post #37 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:00 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I have mixed feelings about abortion, but coming from a third world country where poverty and violence is very common, I'd rather not see more babies being born in such awful environments. Kids over there are victims of abandonment, child abuse, child trafficking, child labor, hunger, violence; it's beyond sad. And only a very small number of orphans get adopted. Who knows what happens with the majority of them.

I think it's the same for many kids in the US as well.

Personally, I couldn't have an abortion, but at the same time my life is ok and I don't need to have one. I can't judge other woman's decision because many don't live my reality and don't have the same privileges I have.

Different people, different realities, different outcomes.
Millions of abortions are done by women in the west, many of whom are like you and perfectly able to bring up a child. Most really poor women in really poor countries don't have abortions or have access to them anyway.
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post #38 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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So its ok to kill babies just because there are other children who may need help? Really? Also loads and loads of people work to help children in our own countries and abroad. Also loads adopt and foster children and sponsor poor children abroad.
Part of my hating the killing of babies is to prevent those women from making a tragic mistake. You cant kill your own child and it not affect you eventually.
A fertilized egg is not a baby. A cluster of cells is not a baby.

And those women you pity so much - it’s their decision to make and not yours.
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post #39 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:07 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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That's fantastic.

And if one of them got pregnant by accident at say 20, what do you think would be best for one of them the day after it happened? Would you think it good that she got to make the decision, or do you think you should get to make it for her?
I would hope that she got some un biased advise from those who were not in the abortion industry and that doesn't often happen.
An MP in the UK a while back was trying to set up some completely unbiased counselling for pregnant women so that they could know both sides and get given lots of information before they made their minds up. Great idea, very sensible you may think. Good grief, the outcry was appalling and she got so attacked and had many death threats. What are these people afraid of? That some women may actually decide not to kill their baby? Its alarming that there are seemingly such powerful people who are so wanting people to kill their own children.
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post #40 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:09 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I would hope that she got some un biased advise from those who were not in the abortion industry and that doesn't often happen.
An MP in the UK a while back was trying to set up some completely unbiased counselling for pregnant women so that they could know both sides and get given lots of information before they made their minds up. Great idea, very sensible you may think. Good grief, the outcry was appalling and she got so attacked and had many death threats. What are these people afraid of? That some women may actually decide not to kill their baby? Its alarming that there are seemingly such powerful people who are so wanting people to kill their own children.
Not what I asked.

Who’s choice should it be? Yours or hers?

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post #41 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:11 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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A fertilized egg is not a baby. A cluster of cells is not a baby.

And those women you pity so much - it’s their decision to make and not yours.
By the time people get abortions the baby is no longer just a fertilised egg or a cluster of cells. That time is long past. As I said the babies heart starts beating at 6 weeks.

yes its their decision to make, shame that so many aren't given all the facts, and many will deeply suffer for it. Many will get depression and other mental illnesses.
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post #42 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Not what I asked.

Who’s choice should it be? Yours or hers?
Its all of our responsibility what happens in our country, and all those who support abortion are equally responsible.
IT will be hers, but she needs to be told the facts instead of this nonsense that its not human its just a few cells. If they were shown a scan of their baby they would see how very much alive their child is,but they tell themselves its just a few cells so its ok. Those who do see a scan usually have the baby .
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post #43 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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By the time people get abortions the baby is no longer just a fertilised egg or a cluster of cells. That time is long past. As I said the babies heart starts beating at 6 weeks.

yes its their decision to make, shame that so many aren't given all the facts, and many will deeply suffer for it. Many will get depression and other mental illnesses.
I’m wrong about you. I apologize.

I think what you just said was that you are pro-choice, even if you disagree with it.

At what point is it a baby for you?
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post #44 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 08:29 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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How exactly does it work, though? To get to tell a woman what to do with herself, while there's actual kids needing actual help?

If I were to make it about someone else getting abortions, that would in fact be whataboutism. What I'm pointing out is that if it's about the kids, then people would actually be doing something about kids.

But this isn't at all about that, is it? Do kids not matter if they're not born in your country? If that's your line, then why does it matter if people in Australia get abortions?

Again, what about the literal frozen fertilized eggs in fertility centers all across your nation? Are these theoretical children that are being held hostage?

Abortion has always been about women's rights.
Again, you frame the argument in a narrow way, ignoring all other elements of the discussion. For me the question centers on when a life becomes a life. At the moment it does, it's not just 'herself" and it's not just about what she's doing "with herself." So it's not just about women's rights, it's about human rights... depending on whether or not you believe a fetus is a human. I'm not taking a position here, since I honestly don't know. But I do know that trying to frame the argument as just about women's rights and ignoring the question of whether or not a fetus is a human does a disservice to the discussion. Moreover. given that there are a good many women who are pro-life, calling it as strictly an attack on women's rights is rather narrow minded.

Now, if you firmly believe that it's not human until after birth, then I understand your position and I'm not going to argue against it or try to change your mind... just as I wouldn't try to argue against a pro-life advocate who honestly believes that life begins at conception or even a more moderate person who draws the line somewhere along the way between conception and birth. I will not openly object to ether position. What I do object to is the prejudicial blanket condemnation of all pro-lifers as people motivated by a desire to deny rights to women when it is clear that most take their position because they believe abortion is murder... agree or not with that belief, that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to label them all as having a completely different and heinous motivation. Just as I don't put a blanket label on pro-choice people as nothing more than a bunch of sexually immoral tramps who murder babies purely out of convenience. Pro lifers who honestly want to save lives rightfully reject your blind blanket assertion of their motivation just as you would reject an extremists view of yours.

I understand the tendency to do so, because if you are able to pin a heinous motivation on your adversary, it makes it easy to demonize them and therefore discredit them without an honest debate. Both sides do it, especially in the abortion debate.

You're doing it here.
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post #45 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 08:31 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Gee... I wonder why people aren't freaking out about the actual children in actual cages, the actual children in actual poverty in your country, or the theoretical children (fertilized eggs) in actual cold storage by the thousands across your country.

It's because it isn't about children at all. It's about who gets control over women's bodies.
IMNSHO it is because as humans we have become so desensitized regarding human suffering in general. It is a world wide problem which is terribly sad.

Abortion is bad, but so is cruelty, neglect, abuse of any type, selling of humans for all kinds of atrocities, etc. The list goes on and on. There are different kinds of slavery in all the world. It is just bad any way you slice it.

Good things come to those who wait...greater things come to those who get off their a$$ and do anything to make it happen.
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Last edited by Bibi1031; 09-26-2019 at 08:54 PM.
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