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post #61 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 02:56 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Yeti View Post
Again, you frame the argument in a narrow way, ignoring all other elements of the discussion. For me the question centers on when a life becomes a life. At the moment it does, it's not just 'herself" and it's not just about what she's doing "with herself." So it's not just about women's rights, it's about human rights... depending on whether or not you believe a fetus is a human. I'm not taking a position here, since I honestly don't know. But I do know that trying to frame the argument as just about women's rights and ignoring the question of whether or not a fetus is a human does a disservice to the discussion. Moreover. given that there are a good many women who are pro-life, calling it as strictly an attack on women's rights is rather narrow minded.

Now, if you firmly believe that it's not human until after birth, then I understand your position and I'm not going to argue against it or try to change your mind... just as I wouldn't try to argue against a pro-life advocate who honestly believes that life begins at conception or even a more moderate person who draws the line somewhere along the way between conception and birth. I will not openly object to ether position. What I do object to is the prejudicial blanket condemnation of all pro-lifers as people motivated by a desire to deny rights to women when it is clear that most take their position because they believe abortion is murder... agree or not with that belief, that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to label them all as having a completely different and heinous motivation. Just as I don't put a blanket label on pro-choice people as nothing more than a bunch of sexually immoral tramps who murder babies purely out of convenience. Pro lifers who honestly want to save lives rightfully reject your blind blanket assertion of their motivation just as you would reject an extremists view of yours.

I understand the tendency to do so, because if you are able to pin a heinous motivation on your adversary, it makes it easy to demonize them and therefore discredit them without an honest debate. Both sides do it, especially in the abortion debate.

You're doing it here.
OK, fair criticism.

My position is based on people like @Diana7 saying "abortion is killing babies" when it's clearly not that. There is no "post-birth abortions" and I'm not talking about late-term abortions, and I don't think anybody else is, either.

What I think "pro choice" means is that it's the woman's right to choose. That's it, it's her choice. Not that I agree with that choice, or that I disagree with it. It's her freedom to choose.

I think some - maybe nobody here although I doubt it - take "pro choice" to mean "abortions are good and we need more of them." When I don't think that's what it means at all, and is only intended on polarizing the debate. Just like gruesome signs we see on billboards, or @Diana7 saying horrible things about being happy about killing babies to a guy that did no such thing.

I also think that to many "pro life" is a lie in that it's anti-pro choice. If that's where you stand, then say that you don't think women get to choose. And that's kinda what happens when we throw up artificial barriers to abortion, defund access to safe abortions, or put up those stupid billboards - it becomes detrimental to a woman's right to choose.

There's also this little tidbit that I first learned from Freakonomics, detailed in the following paper: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...yCrime2004.pdf

Essentially, it posits that a substantial portion for the decrease in violent crime in the '90s is Roe vs Wade and legalized abortion - essentially, that there's less unwanted children that are now teens/adults committing crime.

Interestingly, there's an interesting effect noted where nations that legalize abortion... actually have less abortions: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-shee...tion-worldwide. So if you want to have less abortions, the rational thing to do seems to be to keep them legalized and easily accessible.

Additionally, taking away the freedom of choice not only increases the number of abortions, it makes them far less safe to have done, resulting in long term damage or death to the women seeking them.

On top of that, women having access to contraceptives and abortion has been key to gender equality and allowing women to control their own destiny and sexual fulfillment.

I also very much scratch my head at the renewed debate around legalized abortion in the US, and wonder if in the broader context it's more about conservatism's need to return to 50's style mentality - including women's right to personhood and control over their own bodies.

So that's where I'm at. I think "pro-life" needs to decide if it's actually pro-life - which means they should support legalized abortions - or it it's anti-choice, which is something totally different and icky.

Where I think the transition is between "a cluster of cells" and a "person" is when it's reasonable to think sentience/consciousness/awareness has occurred. That's where it is for me personally.

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post #62 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:12 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

I wonder how this issue will be addressed if at some point in the future the embryo could be developed in an incubator? If the woman didn't want to be pregnant, the embryo could be removed, incubated, and then the resulting baby could be given to the parents later. In that theoretical environment, what would be allowed? Would it be permitted to destroy the embryo, or would it be required to allow the embryo develop into a baby?

I wonder this because often it seems that the reason a woman has an abortion is more about her ability to provide for the child rather than issues directly related to pregnancy. So if we take the whole "control of her body" issue out of consideration, how would the issue be addressed?

I think the frozen embryos are kind of like the same thing. Although we don't have artificial incubators, we do have women who could be surrogates. If women willfully volunteer to be a human incubators, should we allow the embryos to develop even over the objections of the biological parents?
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post #63 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:16 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I wonder how this issue will be addressed if at some point in the future the embryo could be developed in an incubator? If the woman didn't want to be pregnant, the embryo could be removed, incubated, and then the resulting baby could be given to the parents later. In that theoretical environment, what would be allowed? Would it be permitted to destroy the embryo, or would it be required to allow the embryo develop into a baby?

I wonder this because often it seems that the reason a woman has an abortion is more about her ability to provide for the child rather than issues directly related to pregnancy. So if we take the whole "control of her body" issue out of consideration, how would the issue be addressed?

I think the frozen embryos are kind of like the same thing. Although we don't have artificial incubators, we do have women who could be surrogates. If women willfully volunteer to be a human incubators, should we allow the embryos to develop even over the objections of the biological parents?
In a generation or two, live births may be very uncommon. I mean, why go through all the trauma on your body, why worry about c-sections, and all that. I'm speculating of course and I think there would still be benefits from carrying the child naturally, but I could see it becoming common if such problems were overcome. Or I could see men carrying the child in some cases.

Genetic engineering is also coming, and in fact is already here. CRISPR and designer children. Not just choosing the gender, but choosing height, eye and hair color, and even selecting for components of intelligence are already feasible. One day, our children will likely be selected and we will from that point on guide our own biological evolution as a species directly instead of natural selection.

Homo Deus is an interesting book with some of these concepts and more, I highly recommend it: https://www.ynharari.com/book/homo-deus/
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post #64 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:21 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I could never celebrate unborn babies being horribly killed.

Also cant believe that you think its ok to have had 3 of your children killed in this way.
I'm with you here, Diana. I'd love to be a Mom, and while I would have wanted children with anyone I've dated until now, I'd still have welcomed a little bundle. Still would, on the off-chance it ever happened at my age.
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post #65 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:33 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Gee... I wonder why people aren't freaking out about the actual children in actual cages, the actual children in actual poverty in your country, or the theoretical children (fertilized eggs) in actual cold storage by the thousands across your country.

It's because it isn't about children at all. It's about who gets control over women's bodies.
Personally, I think it's more about a lapse in judgement, taking things too far too fast without protection/faulty protection, being drunk/high and forgetting protection, etc. I think everyone should have control over their own bodies, yes. I would never tell you, Marduk, what do do with your body (health-wise, personal expression-wise, in any way) because you know you and I'm not a doctor. I expect the same respect from people.

Also, poverty, theoretical children, children in cages (I'm guessing you mean orphanages and the like) are different topics and arguments, and don't really relate to abortion, since those children are living, breathing, walking, talking children.
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post #66 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:49 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Personally, I think it's more about a lapse in judgement, taking things too far too fast without protection/faulty protection, being drunk/high and forgetting protection, etc. I think everyone should have control over their own bodies, yes. I would never tell you, Marduk, what do do with your body (health-wise, personal expression-wise, in any way) because you know you and I'm not a doctor. I expect the same respect from people.

Also, poverty, theoretical children, children in cages (I'm guessing you mean orphanages and the like) are different topics and arguments, and don't really relate to abortion, since those children are living, breathing, walking, talking children.
It could also be many things: contraceptive failure, divorce/breakups, all kinds of things.

What would you say to someone that seeks to make abortions illegal ďto save children?Ē
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post #67 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:21 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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It could also be many things: contraceptive failure, divorce/breakups, all kinds of things.

What would you say to someone that seeks to make abortions illegal ďto save children?Ē
I would say that thatís well within their rights.

Abortion, among many other things out there, I think is a very personal matter, and itís different for everyone. Personally, I donít agree with it, and think that if you choose the action, you choose the consequence (not just with this, but with pretty much everything). Yes, there are certain cases where a woman doesnít choose the action: rape being an example.

When I was a younger person and living at home with my folks, I was told that if I ever got pregnant while living with them, I could go live on the streets because I wouldnít be welcome in my home anymore. This, as well as a few other very opinionated opinions from my folks were what kept me a virgin until 26. It scared the **** out of me to think that I would be shunned out of my own family. Now that Iím 41 and desire to be a parent very much, part of me wishes that I would have gotten knocked up 15Ö20 years ago. Sure it would have been hard; very hard in fact, but at this point, someone like myself will never give birth to a child, and that makes me indescribably sad. What also makes me sad is all of the unwanted children born to parents who donít want/deserve them and babies who are killed in utero to parents who are willing to discard them.

I have a friend (sheís no longer a friend now for other reasons than this) who had a pregnancy scare a couple times, and had asked me to come with her to get an abortion if need be. The reason being: she hates kids and readily announced this to anyone who would hear it. She hated them, all of them except her nephew. She changed radio stations because the announcers started getting random kids to do the weather reports. She would hand off her children patients to anyone who would take them off her hands. And the list goes on. I did support her abortion decisions, but it was her choice, not mine. I never had to go hold her hand thank God.

I have another friend who already had 2 grown daughters, and ended up getting pregnant again. Problem was that she was really sick. She went to the doctor, and I canít remember what this is called, but the baby was growing inside of her fallopian tube; babe never reached the uterus. She ended up having to have an abortion because the docs said that neither the baby or her would survive to full term. She was a wreck, and her friends rallied around her.

Two very different examples about two very different women.
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post #68 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:28 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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@Diana7, a foetus is not a child.
A foetus is a growing rapidly developing baby.
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post #69 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

In Canada a woman's right to choose has been protected since 1988.
I allow everyone to their opinion on the issue, as long as they don't try to shove their opinion in my face.
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post #70 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:37 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Last edited by Ursula; 09-27-2019 at 04:42 PM.
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post #71 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:39 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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post #72 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:41 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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OK, fair criticism.

My position is based on people like @Diana7 saying "abortion is killing babies" when it's clearly not that. There is no "post-birth abortions" and I'm not talking about late-term abortions, and I don't think anybody else is, either.

What I think "pro choice" means is that it's the woman's right to choose. That's it, it's her choice. Not that I agree with that choice, or that I disagree with it. It's her freedom to choose.

I think some - maybe nobody here although I doubt it - take "pro choice" to mean "abortions are good and we need more of them." When I don't think that's what it means at all, and is only intended on polarizing the debate. Just like gruesome signs we see on billboards, or @Diana7 saying horrible things about being happy about killing babies to a guy that did no such thing.

I also think that to many "pro life" is a lie in that it's anti-pro choice. If that's where you stand, then say that you don't think women get to choose. And that's kinda what happens when we throw up artificial barriers to abortion, defund access to safe abortions, or put up those stupid billboards - it becomes detrimental to a woman's right to choose.

There's also this little tidbit that I first learned from Freakonomics, detailed in the following paper: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...yCrime2004.pdf

Essentially, it posits that a substantial portion for the decrease in violent crime in the '90s is Roe vs Wade and legalized abortion - essentially, that there's less unwanted children that are now teens/adults committing crime.

Interestingly, there's an interesting effect noted where nations that legalize abortion... actually have less abortions: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-shee...tion-worldwide. So if you want to have less abortions, the rational thing to do seems to be to keep them legalized and easily accessible.

Additionally, taking away the freedom of choice not only increases the number of abortions, it makes them far less safe to have done, resulting in long term damage or death to the women seeking them.

On top of that, women having access to contraceptives and abortion has been key to gender equality and allowing women to control their own destiny and sexual fulfillment.

I also very much scratch my head at the renewed debate around legalized abortion in the US, and wonder if in the broader context it's more about conservatism's need to return to 50's style mentality - including women's right to personhood and control over their own bodies.

So that's where I'm at. I think "pro-life" needs to decide if it's actually pro-life - which means they should support legalized abortions - or it it's anti-choice, which is something totally different and icky.

Where I think the transition is between "a cluster of cells" and a "person" is when it's reasonable to think sentience/consciousness/awareness has occurred. That's where it is for me personally.
OK, so what you’re saying is that a human is not a human until the woman gives birth? Or is it not until the child starts thinking and talking? Up until then, it’s just a thing that has zero feelings and can be discarded of with zero repercussions, mentally or physically?

Are you a Dad?

Last edited by Ursula; 09-27-2019 at 04:46 PM.
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post #73 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 05:15 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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In Canada a woman's right to choose has been protected since 1988.
I allow everyone to their opinion on the issue, as long as they don't try to shove their opinion in my face.
What do you think about some of the anti-abortion billboards and protests that Iíve seen across Canada?

I think itís brutal. Women faced with that choice have a tough enough time.
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post #74 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 05:17 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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OK, so what youíre saying is that a human is not a human until the woman gives birth? Or is it not until the child starts thinking and talking? Up until then, itís just a thing that has zero feelings and can be discarded of with zero repercussions, mentally or physically?

Are you a Dad?
I am a father and I do believe consciousness happens before birth.

But it doesnít happen at conception, and it doesnít happen when the heart starts beating either. It happens when the brain is developed enough.

Where that is exactly I have no idea.
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post #75 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 06:10 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
I could never celebrate unborn babies being horribly killed.



Also cant believe that you think its ok to have had 3 of your children killed in this way.


Although Iím in favor of right to privacy between patient and physician, I agree it is not necessarily something to cheer about.

Abortions should be legal (safe) but rare, given all the possible ways to prevent pregnancies in the first place.


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