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post #76 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 06:53 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I am a father and I do believe consciousness happens before birth.

But it doesnít happen at conception, and it doesnít happen when the heart starts beating either. It happens when the brain is developed enough.

Where that is exactly I have no idea.
How developed does the brain have to be? A premature baby will instinctively suck itís mothers breast, is this a sign of a developed brain?
When I hear people discussing brain development as a measure for or against abortion I get worried for children with special needs. How far away is Eugenics at this stage.


When someone says itís not the money itís the principle,itís always the money.
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post #77 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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OK, fair criticism.

My position is based on people like @Diana7 saying "abortion is killing babies" when it's clearly not that. There is no "post-birth abortions" and I'm not talking about late-term abortions, and I don't think anybody else is, either.

What I think "pro choice" means is that it's the woman's right to choose. That's it, it's her choice. Not that I agree with that choice, or that I disagree with it. It's her freedom to choose.

I think some - maybe nobody here although I doubt it - take "pro choice" to mean "abortions are good and we need more of them." When I don't think that's what it means at all, and is only intended on polarizing the debate. Just like gruesome signs we see on billboards, or @Diana7 saying horrible things about being happy about killing babies to a guy that did no such thing.

I also think that to many "pro life" is a lie in that it's anti-pro choice. If that's where you stand, then say that you don't think women get to choose. And that's kinda what happens when we throw up artificial barriers to abortion, defund access to safe abortions, or put up those stupid billboards - it becomes detrimental to a woman's right to choose.

There's also this little tidbit that I first learned from Freakonomics, detailed in the following paper: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...yCrime2004.pdf

Essentially, it posits that a substantial portion for the decrease in violent crime in the '90s is Roe vs Wade and legalized abortion - essentially, that there's less unwanted children that are now teens/adults committing crime.

Interestingly, there's an interesting effect noted where nations that legalize abortion... actually have less abortions: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-shee...tion-worldwide. So if you want to have less abortions, the rational thing to do seems to be to keep them legalized and easily accessible.

Additionally, taking away the freedom of choice not only increases the number of abortions, it makes them far less safe to have done, resulting in long term damage or death to the women seeking them.

On top of that, women having access to contraceptives and abortion has been key to gender equality and allowing women to control their own destiny and sexual fulfillment.

I also very much scratch my head at the renewed debate around legalized abortion in the US, and wonder if in the broader context it's more about conservatism's need to return to 50's style mentality - including women's right to personhood and control over their own bodies.

So that's where I'm at. I think "pro-life" needs to decide if it's actually pro-life - which means they should support legalized abortions - or it it's anti-choice, which is something totally different and icky.

Where I think the transition is between "a cluster of cells" and a "person" is when it's reasonable to think sentience/consciousness/awareness has occurred. That's where it is for me personally.
Some good, rational thoughts in there but I would caution against equating correlation with causality.

And just when does sentience begin?
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post #78 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 07:53 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

Not only should a woman have full rights to what she does to her own body, but no child deserves to be born unwanted.

To that end NOT forcing women to bring their pregnancies to term is a good start.

Yes stuff like late term pregnancies can complicate the whole debate but it's irrelevant to the fact that no child deserves to be born unwanted. Choose the lesser evil. It's not black and white.
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post #79 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:12 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Not only should a woman have full rights to what she does to her own body, but no child deserves to be born unwanted.

To that end NOT forcing women to bring their pregnancies to term is a good start.

Yes stuff like late term pregnancies can complicate the whole debate but it's irrelevant to the fact that no child deserves to be born unwanted. Choose the lesser evil. It's not black and white.
Even in an orphanage, a child has a chance. Once you break out the spatula, it's all over.
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post #80 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:16 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Even in an orphanage, a child has a chance. Once you break out the spatula, it's all over.
Orphanages are the result of unwanted children, the chances it may give unwanted children does not compare to the more favorable (in my opinion) alternative of simply not having unwanted children to begin with.
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post #81 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:23 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Orphanages are the result of unwanted children, the chances it may give unwanted children does not compare to the more favorable (in my opinion) alternative of simply not having unwanted children to begin with.
I'm not sure how nonexistence is preferable to life, even if it's a struggle. That's a pretty dark vision.
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post #82 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:32 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I'm not sure how nonexistence is preferable to life, even if it's a struggle. That's a pretty dark vision.
Ignorance is bliss.
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post #83 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:41 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Even in an orphanage, a child has a chance. Once you break out the spatula, it's all over.
Not quite. Are you aware that the mortality rate in Chinese state-run orphanages was 80% at the time I adopted my daughter (1995). And, China is not the "worst" country on this subject.

She was not touched, she was tied to a bed by the arms and legs, she had finger-bruises and rope burns all over her body, she cried without making a sound (look up the reason for such behavior, it'll make you cry) ... WTF kind of "chance" is that?!

I wish all on this thread would stop being so extreme and flippant with their words.
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post #84 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:52 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I'm not sure how nonexistence is preferable to life, even if it's a struggle. That's a pretty dark vision.
I can imagine that some people would prefer not to be born. Having a rough childhood can be very emotionally devastating. Growing up in poverty has a lot of social issues like physical and sexual abuse, drugs, endless struggles to get by, etc. Some people decide to end life early even.

If there is an everlasting soul, I would think some souls would have a better existence in that metaphysical realm rather than experiencing a horrible human existence.
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post #85 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 09:51 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Not quite. Are you aware that the mortality rate in Chinese state-run orphanages was 80% at the time I adopted my daughter (1995). And, China is not the "worst" country on this subject.

She was not touched, she was tied to a bed by the arms and legs, she had finger-bruises and rope burns all over her body, she cried without making a sound (look up the reason for such behavior, it'll make you cry) ... WTF kind of "chance" is that?!

I wish all on this thread would stop being so extreme and flippant with their words.
I was thinking of western orphanages, which seemed appropriate since we have been talking about western laws. I believe there are no restrictions on abortion in China and given their population, their government actually encourages, and in many cases, mandates them.

I wasn't being flippant, and I have been anything but extreme throughout this thread.

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post #86 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 09:56 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I can imagine that some people would prefer not to be born. Having a rough childhood can be very emotionally devastating. Growing up in poverty has a lot of social issues like physical and sexual abuse, drugs, endless struggles to get by, etc. Some people decide to end life early even.

If there is an everlasting soul, I would think some souls would have a better existence in that metaphysical realm rather than experiencing a horrible human existence.
My mother was a 19yo unmarried woman in a time when that was shunned an when there was no safety net as exists today. She was a high school dropout with zero familial support. She was a pack a day smoker and I was born premature with low birth weight.

I should have been aborted.

I'm glad I got a chance, as are all the people I've touched in my life.
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post #87 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 10:16 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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If there is an everlasting soul, I would think some souls would have a better existence in that metaphysical realm rather than experiencing a horrible human existence.
I have never understood the Christian view on this. Does an aborted fetus go straight to heaven (which might be good right)? Or do they get born into another family (might also be better than being unwanted)? Or what exactly happens to their soul?
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post #88 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 10:36 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Homo Deus is an interesting book with some of these concepts and more, I highly recommend it: https://www.ynharari.com/book/homo-deus/
I will check this out but I like fiction best. Anyone know any good science fiction about fetuses grown outside the womb? I can suggest one science fiction book series I love which has 'uterine replicator' machines (and also genetic engineering and cloning in some later books in the series): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga

It is a space opera, e.g. the some action happens on spaceships and some on various planets.

There is a character in one of the first couple of books in this series that people try to convince to have an abortion. Caveat: There is some violence/murder/war, a couple of gay or bisexual characters and a hemaphrodite, not a lot of sex, mostly it just mentions the characters had sex rather than giving you any explicit description or details. It has a rape scene though, but it has an interesting importance in the plot, not gratuitous, and there is one book within the series (of about 20 books and short stories) which is more dark and disturbing. One of the books is a drawing room comedy, most books in the series are action-oriented with lots of planetary politics, some planets are democratic, others are run by empires. There are different main characters but most books are about a fast-talking but ethical genius that has some health challenges.

Last edited by kari2; 09-27-2019 at 10:56 PM.
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post #89 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 10:50 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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I was thinking of western orphanages, which seemed appropriate since we have been talking about western laws. I believe there are no restrictions on abortion in China and given their population, their government actually encourages, and in many cases, mandates them.

I wasn't being flippant, and I have been anything but extreme throughout this thread.
Describing a medical procedure as "breaking out the spatula" is flippant in my book. Although, @Diana7 has posted worse.

This is an international forum, the discussion follows. My point is that children are treated as disposable chattel in much of the world (USA included) and that fact is at odds with the pro-life position.
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post #90 of 155 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 11:02 PM
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Re: Good News! Abortion is Decriminalised

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Not only should a woman have full rights to what she does to her own body, but no child deserves to be born unwanted.

To that end NOT forcing women to bring their pregnancies to term is a good start.

Yes stuff like late term pregnancies can complicate the whole debate but it's irrelevant to the fact that no child deserves to be born unwanted. Choose the lesser evil. It's not black and white.
My sister was born unwanted. She had an amazing childhood compared to mine. Her adoptive parents were awesome. She was actually kinda spoiled, and then her parents died suddenly and she ended up going down a bad road until i found her in 2011.

My grandfather kicked my mother out when she was 15 because she refused to have an abortion. She worked with an adoption agency in florida called HUG(Help Unfortunate Girls) to give her daughter, by sister, up for adoption to a good family.

My grandfather was a real piece of work. He used to randomly show up at our house and take us(my two brothers and i) away from our house as a way of controlling my mother, until she snapped one day after filing a protective order against him(which he violated) and cut him from his neck to his hip. When he showed up without warning to take us away again.

My mother doesn't know how much i remember from those days. I dont really want to tell her. If it weren't for what i know about my grandfather, i would hate my mother. My mother was often horrible to us, but i know why. After dealing with my grandfather, i know why. So i dont hate her. I still cant trust her with everything, but i know she suffered far worse than i did. I have about 30 scars from my mothers outbursts. Last time i counted, my mother had about 400 scars, and most of them were from her adoptive father.

I trust her to genuinely love my daughter, but i don't trust her to be able to not trigger and do something she will regret.

My mother was adopted, my sister was adopted, my wife was adopted.

My younger brother was almost aborted. The doctors couldn't get a clear picture of his face, so they decided to abort the child on the assumption that he didn't have a face(cant remember what that birth defect is called...). Only, they didn't tell my mother. She found out because the nurse that was prepping her told her what she was there for. When the doctor came in, my mother slammed his face into the table she had been sitting next to. He was the one that ordered it.

My mother thought she was there for some kind of wellness check. She had no idea she had been scheduled for an abortion until the nurse mentioned it.

"I am the wiser in respect to all knowledges, and the better qualified for all fortunes, for knowing that there is a minnow in the brook." -Henry David Thoreau
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