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post #91 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 06:55 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
Must admit that the term illegal aliens isn't used in the UK.At least I haven't heard people use it. We say illegal immigrants. I think that most here see the word aliens as referring to beings from outer space.
Aliens is actually used in some UK legislation, @Diana7.



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post #92 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 06:58 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Yeti View Post
Multiple parts.



Let's start with "Why do you feel we need it." Blatant mischaracterization. Never said or implied.



Also, intent was never to defend any kind of speech specifically, but rather all free speech. Moreover, characterizing that as "hiding behind the first amendment" is false and demeaning. You may honestly see it that way, bit if you do, it just shows your lack of understanding and/or agenda.



Oh, and regarding the KKK; that is a fully discredited and hopelessly fringe organization. And while the Black Panthers may have originally been intent on curbing racism, they became the epitome of anti-white sentiment rather than anti-racist sentiment. What's more, they have been making a comeback, more racist than ever. When the ultra-liberal Southern Poverty Law Center calls a black organization racist, that's saying something.



https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...-panther-party


You provided a link to the NEW Back Panther Party that has nothing to do with the one the Ele referenced in her post and to which I replied.

“Not to be confused with the New Black Panther Party or the New Afrikan Black Panther Party.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party


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post #93 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by InMyPrime View Post
Why do you assume Mark wasn’t fearful for his safety the first time he was yelled at? I would be. You wouldn’t?

This makes no sense to me. If someone says: “I want to kill you and your race” to your face the first time, you are supposed to reply with “I respect your freedom of speech” but only if they follow you, can you call the cops? This is not my reading of the US law. I will ask my US lawyer.
There you go with another "gotcha". No where did I say that freedom of speech allows threats of violence? Nowhere.

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I am curious: if what you write is true then why do you (or someone else) remove/edit any posts that contain racial slurs on this website?
TAM is a privately own entity. It is not an extension of any government entity. Therefore the owners of TAM can choose to allow or disallow any thing they want to.

See the distinction? The Constitution limits the authority of the government. The government cannot limit our speech except in a very few instances that have been defined by the Supreme Court. For example a person cannot yell fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire because it endangers the lives of the people in the theater. Yelling fire in this case can lead to a stampede to the exists which usually ends in some people being killed when they are trampled. It is of course completely legal to yell fire if there actually is a fire in the theater.

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post #94 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 06:59 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Yeti View Post
But threatening to call ICE on an illegal is not racist. It's being a good citizen.



And as I mentioned before, when I was a minority, some nonviolent and non racist people would use racial epithets with me... purely in good fun. Someone else observing who didn't know any better would have a different interpretation.

Where were you a minority?


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post #95 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:00 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by InMyPrime View Post
Mischaracterisation of what? It’s a simple question: why do we need to protect the right to hate speech and how does hate speech interfere with freedom of speech. That’s what this thread is essentially about. What am I mischaracterizing?

when you ask why do we need it, you are saying the other person said we need it. That is not the case
You have put false words in someone else's mouth and try to control the discussion by forcing them to explain something they never even said in the first place. Classic strawman.


You don’t explain how ‘intent’ comes into it. What are you talking about?


Because the whole thing is based on the perception of the speech... I have already explained multiple times how this can be, and has been, misconstrued.

Which means what exactly? That it didn’t do any harm because it was discredited? That it didn’t exist or had no influence because it was fringe? Can you finish your sentences so that I don’t have to be told that I am mischaracterising or ‘racebaiting’ anyone.

Youre doing it again. None of those things were said or implied. In fact, this whole line of argument started when Ele declared the KKK racist, so you're barking up the wrong tree right from the get go here. You just seemed to be trying to make the point that it was wrong to mention both the KKK and the BP because one is racist and the other isnt. Thsts not the case. Even the ultra liberal SPLC days so






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post #96 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by InMyPrime View Post
You provided a link to the NEW Back Panther Party that has nothing to do with the one the Ele referenced in her post and to which I replied.

“Not to be confused with the New Black Panther Party or the New Afrikan Black Panther Party.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party
False. I was talking about the Black Panther Party as they exist today. Just add the word "New" because that's who I was talking about. They are a hate group. Stop trying to pretend that I was not talking about a legitimate hate group.

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post #97 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by MattMatt View Post
Aliens is actually used in some UK legislation, @Diana7.
Oh look...………………………………….
"United Kingdom

Further information: British Nationality Act

In the United Kingdom, the British Nationality Act of 1981 defines an alien as a person who is not a British citizen, a citizen of Ireland, a Commonwealth citizen, or a British protected person.[14] The Aliens Act of 1905, the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act of 1914 and the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act of 1919 were all products of the turbulence in the early part of the 20th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(law)
I guess IMP was wrong again.

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post #98 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:17 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by InMyPrime View Post
Where were you a minority?


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I attended an 80% black school in North Carolina

I was the only Gringo for 5 square miles in Pueblo, Colorado

Same situation again in a rough part of San Antonio Texas

Then I surprisingly ended up living in an all Black part of San Antonio

Most recently, whites were a minority overall, but there was no single group large enough to be a majority, where I lived in suburban DC.
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post #99 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:18 PM
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Re: free speech

Here's the thing. "Illegal alien" presents a realistic characterization of a foreign person crossing the border without authorization. (if you asked a person why someone is referred to as an illegal alien, they'd likely say the individual is here without authorization) That's the problem with the phrase. It provides a realistic perception. History reveals the inability PC musketeers/zealots to deal with words, clauses and phrases that lead to reality based perceptions.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
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post #100 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:20 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by InMyPrime View Post
You sent me a link to the NEW Black Panther party which is a completely different thing from what Ele referenced in her post and to which I replied.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party

“Not to be confused with the New Black Panther Party or the New Afrikan Black Panther Party.”



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The old BPP were no Angel's either, but this thread is about the current day, no? Do you know which BPP Ele was referring to? Maybe both.

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post #101 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:27 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
There are often bad people on both (or all sides). Not sure of your point here.

I think you need to read more about the Black Panthers. Here is what the SPLC says about the group.

The New Black Panther Party is a virulently racist and antisemitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers. ... Founded in Dallas, the group portrays itself as a militant, modern-day expression of the black power movement.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...-panther-party

No, the Black Panthers did not really dissolve. Instead they morphed into the “New” version of the same thing. See above post.
It seems they didn’t:

“The Huey Newton Foundation, former chairman and co-founder Bobby Seale, and members of the original Black Panther Party have insisted that this New Black Panther Party is illegitimate and they have strongly objected to it by stating that there "is no new Black Panther Party".” (Wiki)

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
So now you change the example. You clearly said that you were talking about someone who ‘call you to your face a "filthy Jew"’. I was addressing the exact scenario you gave.

Changing the scenario is a ‘gotcha’ technique… it’s a logical fallacy.
I didn’t change he my example. You wanted to know how one would know someone was being racist if they didn’t speak English, I gave you a DIFFERENT example to explain how.

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Excuse me. DO NOT twist what I have said. I have never said that it is important to protect anti-racist/antisemitic behavior.

It’s about protecting free speech, racism/antisemitism.
What? Is there supposed to be a difference in these two sentences?

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
I have never said that we need hate speech. What I have said is that free speech allows for people to say and believe hateful things. No one can control what other people think. Controlling speech does not stop them from hating.
I don’t need anyone to stop people from hating me (though it would be nice if they did), I just need some kind of laws to prevent people from throwing insults at me because I would feel threatened. Anyone would.

Ok this is the crux: why do you believe eliminating hate/racist speech would have any effect on ‘freedom of speech’?

I mean it’s like with anything: you need to learn it to use responsibly. I don’t understand who would disagree with the idea that using racist speech is NOT a responsible way of using speech? It seems you guys got yourselves into a logical pretzel here .
Or how would one ‘use racist speech against me’ if someone else got in power? Racist speech is racist speech.

Like I wrote, it’s standard everywhere in Europe and we seem to be coping? Why do you (general you) NEED to throw insults at someone?

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
Yep, and they are frightening. See in Nazi Germany, they had laws about what a person can say. It was considered hate speech against the Aryan race to say anything in support of Jews. What you use against others will someday be used against you when someone else gains power.
Well, no, it’s not the same. How is saying something IN DEFENCE of a race the same as saying something racist? That’s kind of the opposite by all normal definitions...

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
Look at here in the US. There are case after case of false hate crimes. Smollett is the most visible case.
That’s ONE case. And it’s not a very good one because Smollett basically attacked himself, and not some other race, if that’s even what happened. He was never found guilty or convicted in the end so you can’t really use him as an example.

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
What paranoia?

The paranoia of not being able to (legally) say racist stuff. On the list of worries, thus seems pretty far down the list in my book...Hence my confusion.


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post #102 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:35 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by MattMatt View Post
Sorry! Going to have to you, there.



As long ago as 1905 the government of the United Kingdom enacted The Aliens Act https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ntents/enacted



so your claim that



is factually incorrect. Australia and New Zealand are two other nations that also use the term aliens in the context of immigration, legal and or otherwise. Other countries may well use the term alien in the same context, other countries that are non-English speaking may well use a term in their own language the word for which translates as alien. I don't know.


Let me BS you right back because we:

1. Don’t live in 1905 anymore and
2. The act has long been replaced with many new acts, not using ‘alien’ in their names, including:
- Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968
- The Immigration Act 1971
- the British Nationality Act 1981
And so on.





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post #103 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:39 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Yeti View Post
I attended an 80% black school in North Carolina



I was the only Gringo for 5 square miles in Pueblo, Colorado



Same situation again in a rough part of San Antonio Texas



Then I surprisingly ended up living in an all Black part of San Antonio



Most recently, whites were a minority overall, but there was no single group large enough to be a majority, where I lived in suburban DC.

I don’t think you have any idea what ‘minority’ means if you think that that in any way equals to attending an interracial school.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought that might be the case.


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post #104 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:45 PM
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Re: free speech

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Here's the thing. "Illegal alien" presents a realistic characterization of a foreign person crossing the border without authorization. (if you asked a person why someone is referred to as an illegal alien, they'd likely say the individual is here without authorization) That's the problem with the phrase. It provides a realistic perception. History reveals the inability PC musketeers/zealots to deal with words, clauses and phrases that lead to reality based perceptions.

What kind of characterisation does ‘alien’ provide to you if that alien is in fact, legal or just a tourist? Maybe your image/perception of tourists differs from mine.


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post #105 of 178 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:47 PM
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Re: free speech

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The old BPP were no Angel's either, but this thread is about the current day, no? Do you know which BPP Ele was referring to? Maybe both.

Yes, she said which. And compared them to KKK as equivalent. And then erroneously posted that the old group morphed into the new one. Which it didn’t.
I am just trying to keep the facts straight...But it’s a losing battle.


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