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post #31 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 01:26 PM
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The Hidden State in The U.S.

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The hysteria is all in your comments about how we are going to help these folks. You don't realize you are saying the same thing that everyone else is. You don't have a good solution, either. No one seems to have a good solution, therefore hysteria develops when we realize there is a crisis. We ignored it because it was isolated. Now, it's become such an issue for those few states, it has spilled over into other states with sanctuary cities. Guess where it started? California, Florida, New York and Texas for the most part are at the forefront of this issue. The rest of us have to somehow clean up those states mistakes. We can't, either. Just a few states made it a national issue.


Actually I’m saying the US should focus on internal problems, such as wealth inequality, not some made up illegal immigration crisis.




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post #32 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 02:02 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Actually I’m saying the US should focus on internal problems, such as wealth inequality, not some made up illegal immigration crisis.




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You and I both have proven there is an immigration crisis.

Wealth inequality, I've addressed. I must have missed your suggestions on how to fix that issue. You do know that illegal immigration is part and parcel to the wealth inequality issue?

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post #33 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 06:07 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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You and I both have proven there is an immigration crisis.



Wealth inequality, I've addressed. I must have missed your suggestions on how to fix that issue. You do know that illegal immigration is part and parcel to the wealth inequality issue?


Sorry, but I don’t see it as a crisis. Wealth inequality has many different components to it and I don’t see illegal immigration affecting any of them. So I disagree with you that illegal immigration has anything to do with wealth inequality in this country.

And whatever the cause of wealth inequality is, it won’t be fixed by the poor people any way you look at it so it doesn’t matter how I propose to fix it.


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post #34 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 07:33 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by GAgirl912 View Post
Sorry, but I don’t see it as a crisis. Wealth inequality has many different components to it and I don’t see illegal immigration affecting any of them. So I disagree with you that illegal immigration has anything to do with wealth inequality in this country.

And whatever the cause of wealth inequality is, it won’t be fixed by the poor people any way you look at it so it doesn’t matter how I propose to fix it.


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Of course you see it as a crisis. You don't completely change the economic system of the most prosperous, wealthy and powerful nation in the world unless there is a crisis. That would be economic suicide.

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post #35 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 07:49 PM
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Of course you see it as a crisis. You don't completely change the economic system of the most prosperous, wealthy and powerful nation in the world unless there is a crisis. That would be economic suicide.


Are you talking about the US being the richest most powerful country in the world? I sense a bit of arrogance. (Psst.. the US is not the richest country in the world by the way)

“Qatar, China, Singapore: Top 25 richest countries in the world”. According to this article, the US is number 12

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/39630693

And if you don’t believe that article, here’s another one that doesn’t have the US in the top 10 of richest countries:

https://financesonline.com/top-10-ri...-in-the-world/

Also here’s an article debunking a lot of the hysteria surrounding illegal immigration and economics:

Wanted to point this part out if you don’t care to read the whole thing.. “In the realm of wages and employment, this study largely confirms what prior studies have shown: that immigration, in general, has little impact on wages and employment of U.S”

And this:

“Finally, academic research indicates that the presence of immigrant workers (both authorized and unauthorized) in the labor market has expanded the U.S. economy by an estimated 11 percent, representing an increase equivalent to $2 trillion of the GDP in 2016 (Borjas 2013, cited in NASEM 2017: 282). “

https://contexts.org/blog/unauthoriz...cal-economies/

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post #36 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 09:57 PM
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post #37 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

Thank you GAgirl1912 for taking the time to prove your case.

You made some good points in defending immigrants and illegal immigrants. Illegal immigration is one thing, unrestricted immigration is another.

The US Chamber of Commerce has long defended migrant workers coming into this country. Migrant or temporary worker are mostly a good thng, illegal immigration is another.

So, in your estimate, we have no immigration problem on the southern border? You have repeatedly said this.

I suspect that you realize that if we fail to stop people at the southern border we will empty the whole of central America, much of South America, especially failed socialist country, Venezuela.

It is chaos down south of the USA.

I agree, a steady amount of immigration is good for our country. It must be a managed immigration. Admitting those that are needed, not those that want to come in and storm our borders.

Did you not see all those caravans of people coming up from Honduras, from El Salvador, from Mexico from South America, from the Middle East, Africa and from Eastern Europe. Yes, many people from all over the world would come here if they were allowed to.

You say this is not a problem. I am amazed.

Apparently, you believe the rule of law is meaningless.

You do not have a country if you do not have borders.

You cannot remain a Sovereign country unless you strive to make it one.

We are living on a fragile planet, filled with ~7 billion people. All needing food, clothes, shelter and a means of obtaining capital.

Science must rule our immigration policies not our emotions.

Keep in mind, there is good science and there is bad.

Facts and figures are one thing, accurate facts and figures are another. Facts have a way of supporting one cause or another. Remember that.

Give me a number, how many more people do we need in this country? We presently have about ~329 Million. That is an estimate.

Look around you, drive through our biggest cities and look at the squalor and poverty.

Any new people we invite in must very soon contribute to the economy, not to the ranks of poverty or crime figures.
We cannot bring in just any people and hope for the best. That is not realistic.

And, remember this. The quickest way for a country to fall, to fail is to Balkanize it. Bring in all sorts of people who speak different languages, have different cultures, have no sense of pride in their new home.
And, new people bring in their old prejudiced and bias's. All that baggage from their homelands.

I know, we did it at the beginning of our founding, but the bulk were Judeo Christians, plus some few atheists. I am not saying that these are the only decent or good people on Earth. But, it worked for us in growing this Nation.

There is a limit on how many cultures can successfully coexist. History proves this out. History is ugly. But, we must learn from it.

Sadly, we do not!

We may not be the richest country in the world, but few non-asians would be willing to move to Indonesia, or non muslims to Qatar. Indonesia is a modern country, but they too have their immigration problems and their laws are more stringent than ours!

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out. The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall.
The Host, Rd is ill, any years left, remain now, in doubt? Red Dog is now lost to us.
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post #38 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
Thank you GAgirl1912 for taking the time to prove your case.



You made some good points in defending immigrants and illegal immigrants. Illegal immigration is one thing, unrestricted immigration is another.



The US Chamber of Commerce has long defended migrant workers coming into this country. Migrant or temporary worker are mostly a good thng, illegal immigration is another.



So, in your estimate, we have no immigration problem on the southern border? You have repeatedly said this.



I suspect that you realize that if we fail to stop people at the southern border we will empty the whole of central America, much of South America, especially failed socialist country, Venezuela.



It is chaos down south of the USA.



I agree, a steady amount of immigration is good for our country. It must be a managed immigration. Admitting those that are needed, not those that want to come in and storm our borders.



Did you not see all those caravans of people coming up from Honduras, from El Salvador, from Mexico from South America, from the Middle East, Africa and from Eastern Europe. Yes, many people from all over the world would come here if they were allowed to.



You say this is not a problem. I am amazed.



Apparently, you believe the rule of law is meaningless.



You do not have a country if you do not have borders.



You cannot remain a Sovereign country unless you strive to make it one.



We are living on a fragile planet, filled with ~7 billion people. All needing food, clothes, shelter and a means of obtaining capital.



Science must rule our immigration policies not our emotions.



Keep in mind, there is good science and there is bad.



Facts and figures are one thing, accurate facts and figures are another. Facts have a way of supporting one cause or another. Remember that.



Give me a number, how many more people do we need in this country? We presently have about ~329 Million. That is an estimate.



Look around you, drive through our biggest cities and look at the squalor and poverty.



Any new people we invite in must very soon contribute to the economy, not to the ranks of poverty or crime figures.

We cannot bring in just any people and hope for the best. That is not realistic.



And, remember this. The quickest way for a country to fall, to fail is to Balkanize it. Bring in all sorts of people who speak different languages, have different cultures, have no sense of pride in their new home.

And, new people bring in their old prejudiced and bias's. All that baggage from their homelands.



I know, we did it at the beginning of our founding, but the bulk were Judeo Christians, plus some few atheists. I am not saying that these are the only decent or good people on Earth. But, it worked for us in growing this Nation.



There is a limit on how many cultures can successfully coexist. History proves this out. History is ugly. But, we must learn from it.



Sadly, we do not!



We may not be the richest country in the world, but few non-asians would be willing to move to Indonesia, or non muslims to Qatar. Indonesia is a modern country, but they too have their immigration problems and their laws are more stringent than ours!
No I don’t think it’s as big a problem as this administration has made it out to be:

“THE REALITY Illegal border crossings have been declining for nearly two decades. In 2017, border-crossing apprehensions were at their lowest point since 1971.”

On crime:

“THE REALITY It is difficult to assess the president’s claims that illegal immigration leads to more crime because few law enforcement agencies release crime data that includes immigration status. However, several studies have found no link between immigration and crime, and some have found lower crime rates among immigrants.

Texas, which has the longest border with Mexico and has one of the largest populations of undocumented immigrants of any state, keeps track of immigration status as part of its crime data. The Cato Institute, a libertarian research center, analyzed the Texas data for 2015 and found that the rate of crime among undocumented immigrants was generally lower than among native-born Americans.”

On drugs:

“THE REALITY It is true that the majority of heroin enters the United States through the southern border, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration. But the D.E.A. also says that most heroin is brought into the country in vehicles entering through legal border crossings, not through the areas where walls are proposed or already exist.”

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-reality.html

And no, I don’t get it. It is not what this country was founded on (once you get past what the founders of this country actually did to the original inhabitants) and it’s not the way my God tells me to treat other people, especially those in need. But if you think building a border wall will help you sleep better at night, sweet dreams. I personally think it’s a huge waste of my taxes which could benefit other more pressing issues inside the wall.

And your comment about how many cultures can successfully co-exist, what history proves this? Many cultures can co exist. People have to be accepting of cultures to make that happen, unfortunately in the US, native born Americans increasingly have some superiority complex.

“There are various challenges that a multicultural society has to face. Among them acceptability is one of the most important ones. Further, the society wherein multiculturalism has to exist always generates a sort of fear of loss of national identity. This loss of national identity sometimes takes the form of political struggle through political platforms, while at other times it may take the form of violent measures. And on certain occasions it is also possible that the political parties themselves turn violent in the pursuit of their motto.”

http://outlookafghanistan.net/topics.php?post_id=5350

But whatever.



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post #39 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

Thank you for your honesty.

I think that you are foolishly set in your ways and that you are hopeless in your beliefs.

And, we at SunCMars suspect you think the same of (us).

You have wishful thinking, that makes for good dreams, not for good reality.
Life is hard, will remain hard, that is a sure thing.

The Hun is at the gates, always has been, always will be.

Even if we move to some new planet, it is in our makeup to be 'this' way.


THM-

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out. The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall.
The Host, Rd is ill, any years left, remain now, in doubt? Red Dog is now lost to us.

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post #40 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

Rome fell for many reasons.

They lost their national identity.
They had no more land to give away to their soldiers.
They ran out of other peoples money.
They became hopelessly corrupt and debauched, pornography was Rome.
They fought too many wars on too many fronts, using mercenary armies who cared not for Rome, only for capital goods, blood and pillaging.

They drank from leaden vessels.
They allowed internal politics to divide them.
They allowed those bad sanitary practices to weaken them. Disease killed many a Roman.
They were the Masters at practicing multiculturalism. It brought them ruin.
They allowed the rule of law to fall to nothing.
They had not a shiver of meaningful spirituality.


This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out. The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall.
The Host, Rd is ill, any years left, remain now, in doubt? Red Dog is now lost to us.
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post #41 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 08:18 AM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

What a great response Sun:

I know you have all this data, but you are a fool and here is my no data to back that up.

Have fun exploring the non-existent problems of a country full of real problems.
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post #42 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 08:21 AM
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The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
Thank you for your honesty.

I think that you are foolishly set in your ways and that you are hopeless in your beliefs.

And, we at SunCMars suspect you think the same of (us).

You have wishful thinking, that makes for good dreams, not for good reality.
Life is hard, will remain hard, that is a sure thing.

The Hun is at the gates, always has been, always will be.

Even if we move to some new planet, it is in our makeup to be 'this' way.


THM-


What I think is that it is people such as yourself that keeps multi cultural society from peacefully coexisting. It is not in our makeup to be the way you’re suggesting we be.. We are conditioned to not be accepting of others, whether it be from our upbringing, our environment, our experiences, fake news, etc.


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post #43 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 09:32 AM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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I know you have all this data, but you are a fool and here is my no data to back that up.

Tas, you really really need quit telling people they are fools, stupid, et cetera, when they don't agree with you. Its getting real old, real fast.

"The facts have never mattered less than they do today. We're living in a time where the truth has been so diminished in value, even those at the top of government (and the media) are quite comfortable with the truth being whatever they can convince people to believe",
Raymond Reddington.
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post #44 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 09:35 AM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

Crime is decreasing overall in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_..._United_States

The west coast has some huge problems and some huge benefits. Extreme liberal ideology is just as destructive as extreme conservative ideology.





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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
This is a hot button topic, not one that many 'here' wish to opine on.

For obvious reasons. It is hard to defend what is presently going on.

It is madness, and chaos in the Golden State. The same for Oregon and Washington State.

Actually, many people with means are fleeing California for Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico.
Even to the Midwest.
Where ever the cost of living is less and where jobs are available.

And where crime is held at bay...
Crime is everywhere.....now.

The only problem is that they are bringing the same political attitudes to their new homes in these states and the districts.
The attitudes that led to the downfall of the once great and beautiful West Coast.

I have my own solutions.

No, many of them will never be enacted on.

Where, Liberal-Progressives rule the day, it becomes a nightmare for their constituents.

Sigh....
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post #45 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 10:00 AM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
Rome fell for many reasons.

They lost their national identity.
They had no more land to give away to their soldiers.
They ran out of other peoples money.
They became hopelessly corrupt and debauched, pornography was Rome.
They fought too many wars on too many fronts, using mercenary armies who cared not for Rome, only for capital goods, blood and pillaging.

They drank from leaden vessels.
They allowed internal politics to divide them.
They allowed those bad sanitary practices to weaken them. Disease killed many a Roman.
They were the Masters at practicing multiculturalism. It brought them ruin.
They allowed the rule of law to fall to nothing.
They had not a shiver of meaningful spirituality.

There’s a lot of articles (and debate) related to the history of the fall of Rome.. but this little tidbit stood out to me in my brief research of the fall of Rome:

“Many poor people were glad to see Rome fall. They were starving to death while being taxed heavily by Rome.”

https://www.ducksters.com/history/an...ll_of_rome.php

Here’s another one:

“Constant wars and overspending had significantly lightened imperial coffers, and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor.”

https://www.history.com/news/8-reasons-why-rome-fell


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