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post #106 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 12:30 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
Blah blah, ad hominem and strawman.

It is arrogant to assume that health care is a good thing for people? It is arrogant to assume that cleaner more efficient energy is good for people? It is arrogant to say that a living wage is good for people?

I would argue that it is arrogant to think that some deserve that and others do not.

Is there evidence we are pushing the moon out of orbit? If so, maybe we should address that.
Strawman, moving the goalposts.

You just like to argue.

You haven't shown that you need evidence, just an imagination.


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post #107 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 12:39 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Strawman, moving the goalposts.

You just like to argue.

You haven't shown that you need evidence, just an imagination.
I love to argue, I won't lie about that. As do you, or we wouldn't be here.

What evidence was I requested to bring? That human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and that location of birth, or origin of parents are not a good determining factor of who is worthy?
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post #108 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 12:40 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Which culture? American culture? Your state? Your community? The sub-groups you identify with?

Where can I find a definition of this country culture you speak of?
Let’s just call it a more sustainable, self reliant culture.

Definition? That made me laugh. It’s something which must be lived and not something text book definable.

When one has lived 2 years mostly alone out in the woods, rain, sleet, snow, lightning storms, or shine with no tent or electronic gadgets then perhaps one could relate.


I like Anthony Hopkins character in Instinct rendition of the 2 cultures. Givers and Takers.

Edit: you can’t define it. Have to know it. Defining is never the same as knowing.


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post #109 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 12:50 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Letís just call it a more sustainable, self reliant culture.
So if theyíre sustainable, and self reliant - including having their own language and culture? Thatís fine then?

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Definition? That made me laugh. Itís something which must be lived and not something text book definable.
Right. So this magical thing that only you understand and cannot define is that which all immigrants must jettison their own culture for.

Should you put on a class for how to be an American or something? Coast to coast, see to shining sea a homogenous culture that only you get to define?

Land of the free?

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When one has lived 2 years mostly alone out in the woods, rain, sleet, snow, lightning storms, or shine with no tent or electronic gadgets then perhaps one could relate.
I have done all those things and more and disagree with you.


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I like Anthony Hopkins character in Instinct rendition of the 2 cultures. Givers and Takers.
This may surprise you, but to many other cultures Americans are the biggest takers that exist.

Even inside your culture, east coast says itís the West coast, and vice versa. Middle America looks around and feels left out because the coasts get all the economic action.

And on and on.

Quote:
Edit: you canít define it. Have to know it. Defining is never the same as knowing.
Again, youíre arguing this thing you canít define is the thing that everyone should live by?

How do you know what you know? Didnít Mark Twain say something about the stuff that is wrong but you know for sure being the stuff that gets you in trouble?
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post #110 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 12:53 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
I love to argue, I won't lie about that. As do you, or we wouldn't be here.

What evidence was I requested to bring? That human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and that location of birth, or origin of parents are not a good determining factor of who is worthy?
Yes, but you won't accept defeat.

No one requested you post in this thread, either. I don't need you to prove that.

lol

Again, you move the goal posts. You argument is a strawman.

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post #111 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 12:57 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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I’m also posting on my phone, so I may not be articulating myself well.

If you argue that indigenous Americans did not exist, and can therefore be displaced, then your argument can be extended to say that naturalized Americans also do not exist and can therefore be displaced.

If you’re arguing that cultural destruction is inevitable by those capable of destroying it, therefore it’s a naturally good thing to do, then if “immigration” is destroying your country, then I would argue they’re doing the same the colonialism did.
I never argued they could be displaced because they were not indigenous.

I never argued it was a good thing to destroy cultures.

In fact, that is what you are arguing for. The destruction of the traditional culture of the USA and the unlawful rights to a conception. Now, some of that changing is good. Some is bad.

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post #112 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:03 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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I never argued they could be displaced because they were not indigenous.

I never argued it was a good thing to destroy cultures.
What does it mean then when you say it was inevitable?

What does it mean when you say they are not indigenous?

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In fact, that is what you are arguing for. The destruction of the traditional culture of the USA and the unlawful rights to a conception. Now, some of that changing is good. Some is bad.
Again, what culture specifically is being destroyed?

Who specifically is destroying it?
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post #113 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:06 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Yes, but you won't accept defeat.

No one requested you post in this thread, either. I don't need you to prove that.

lol

Again, you move the goal posts. You argument is a strawman.
It's not your thread, so no one requested your presence either. It wasn't a private discussion anyway.

What I posted wasn't a strawman. You have said we must lock down the border and not deal with the humanitarian issues outside the walls we built. That is exactly what I am saying you said. You feel that people within the walls are more worthy than those outside of it, simply because they are inside them. Well, inside of them legally according to your laws. Otherwise, they need to be put outside of them where they can take their place of having no value.

I am arguing that we can move past this all. Resources are not scarce, they are only being horded. We can make the world a better place, we can make this place a better place for everyone. That is all I am in support of. People being more open to having less so that all can have more. People being able to realize the amazing things they take for granted and how much of the world goes without basic things, while we squabble about luxuries.
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post #114 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Indeed, and so much more. As much as 90% or more of the indigenous population was killed through violence, starvation, purposeful or accidental introduction of disease, and even purposeful destruction of the culture of the people that were here.

This was not inevitable. This was a choice.

And if you believe you own your property, then you must believe that they owned it before you. You canít have it both ways and have your cake and eat it too.

So which is it?
Oh?

I beg your pardon, I beg not your folly.

I own it. This Great Lakes property of mine.

The law prevents anyone, even those ancestors that, "hold not the deed" to take it from me.
I am protected by the 'current' Rule of Law.

The Statue of Limitations on my deeded land went away seven years after Chief Pontiac and his band of warriors met their end.
Or, after his statue was removed from Harry's on the hill, July 13, 2018, in West Asheville, NC.

And, I will defend my deed in court.
And, if all else fails, I am well armed.

I cannot be held accountable for what someone else's ancestors did immorally.

We live in the present, not in the past.

Laws are those compromises that people enact and bow to, in order to maintain 'current' civilization.
Feeling guilt for all of our ancestors that were unjustly harmed is certainly thoughtful.

Laying guilt on a person for something that happened ~6 generations ago, is ludicrous.

Marduk, you certainly can 'argue' better than this.

.................................................. ..........................

Save, maybe the Antarctic territories, all habitable land has been pre-owned by some ancient humans, or pre-humans.

.................................................. ..........................

By your logic, we now own the Moon, since we were the first to set foot on it.

Hmm?

What about the ancient Martians, they were there, on the Moon first, so is it really theirs?

.................................................. ..........................

Unfortunately, might is right.

You own something until someone else takes it from you.


You get this, right?

Life is not fair. Never was, never will be.




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This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out. The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall.
With The Host, RD back will there be any interest in telling Tales? Red Dog longs for his master?
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post #115 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:12 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Did DACA not exist legally?
DACA is not constitutional because it bypasses Constitutional law.

DACA places those coming here legally at a disadvantage because it can take away opportunities they might have.


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post #116 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:17 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
Oh?

I beg your pardon, I beg not your folly.

I own it. This Great Lakes property of mine.

The law prevents anyone, even those ancestors that, "hold not the deed" to take it from me.
I am protected by the 'current' Rule of Law.

The Statue of Limitations on my deeded land went away seven years after Chief Pontiac and his band of warriors met their end.
Or, after his statue was removed from Harry's on the hill, July 13, 2018, in West Asheville, NC.

And, I will defend my deed in court.
And, if all else fails, I am well armed.

I cannot be held accountable for what someone else's ancestors did immorally.

We live in the present, not in the past.

Laws are those compromises that people enact and bow to, in order to maintain 'current' civilization.
Feeling guilt for all of our ancestors that were unjustly harmed is certainly thoughtful.

Laying guilt on a person for something that happened ~6 generations ago, is ludicrous.

Marduk, you certainly can 'argue' better than this.

.................................................. ..........................

Save, maybe the Antarctic territories, all habitable land has been pre-owned by some ancient humans, or pre-humans.

.................................................. ..........................

By your logic, we now own the Moon, since we were the first to set foot on it.

Hmm?

What about the ancient Martians, they were there, on the Moon first, so is it really theirs?

.................................................. ..........................

Unfortunately, might is right.

You own something until someone else takes it from you.


You get this, right?

Life is not fair. Never was, never will be.




THRD-
Well, Iíll be the first to argue that my argument wasnít good - because it was an extension of someone elseís that I didnít agree with. That was my point.

Secondly, might does not make right. Is your nation not a nation ruled by law? Wasnít that the point of it?
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post #117 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:18 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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DACA is not constitutional because it bypasses Constitutional law.
I wasnít aware it was illegal. Iíll look into that.
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post #118 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:18 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Thatís not an argument. The people I work with arenít focused on economic reconciliation. Theyíre focused on cultural reconciliation, with a heavy emphasis on being seen and understood. To be safe in their own culture and traditions and to be safe together. To work together instead of working apart.

And if youíre victimized by your loss of privilege, how are you a victim by becoming equal?
Define cultural reconciliation.

Define their definition of being seen and understood.

Define their culture and why they are not safe.

Define a society where one culture all works together without other cultures.

Because I was not eligible to receive a grant when minorities were, even though I was in a similar economic situation. I could not have been in the same program as they were, if I were not. That's discrimination sanctioned by the state, not equality.

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post #119 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:20 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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I wasnít aware it was illegal. Iíll look into that.
Look into the constitutionality of it instead.

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post #120 of 141 (permalink) Old 12-03-2019, 01:25 PM
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Re: The Hidden State in The U.S.

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Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
Define cultural reconciliation.

Define their definition of being seen and understood.

Define their culture and why they are not safe.
Sure, I’m very glad you asked. Here’s a good resource (although Canadian): https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/what-reco...what-it-is-not

Quote:
Define a society where one culture all works together without other cultures.
Do you mean define a homogenous culture?

There are very few left. Pre-Meiji Japan comes to mind.

Quote:
Because I was not eligible to receive a grant when minorities were, even though I was in a similar economic situation. I could not have been in the same program as they were, if I were not. That's discrimination sanctioned by the state, not equality.
And how many other things were available to you that weren’t available to others simply by virtue of being born where, when, and to who you were?

I wasn’t aware of my own privilege until recently. Still only marginally aware of it.

What would you do, if you could do anything?
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