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post #16 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 07:10 PM
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Re: Brexit

So....I keep hearing that democracy is good, so good in fact, it needs to be spread with warfare.

But, then, a bunch of people vote to leave an oppressive bureaucratic nightmare and that country's version of the ''swamp'' says, "nah, maybe later, probably never"

Then people are surprised and whine about the ensuing landslide?

Weird, amirite?

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post #17 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 08:20 PM
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Re: Brexit

They were misinformed. Boris and a couple of pals claimed that the UK sent GBP350M a week to the EU or something like that. And that that money could be spent on the NHS.

the first part is not true. And the Tories are ready to privatise the NHS.
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post #18 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 10:32 PM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Actually pretty well. I'm not worried about foreign invasion, or crime. I work with people from all over the world. Not only am I never hungry, I can choose between a huge range of food types.

Things aren't prefect, and there are improvements I'd like to make but we seem to be doing quite well.
So, I guess that you suffer from a congenital lack of self-reflection.

You sound like a monster wearing a human skin-suit.

"It's wonderful that I get to eat Turkish Delight. Over 8,000 US servicemen died, untold hundred's of thousands of civilians in targeted countries were targeted and killed on the orders of my duly elected officials, but I AM SAFE, and I have Turkish Delight."

You might want to work on the whole public perception thing.

You might want to work on faking being human.

Run as you may, you can not escape the wrath of the almighty bung hole, for I am the almighty bungholio!
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post #19 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 11:24 PM
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Re: Brexit

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What are you lot on about?

Are you on drugs, because smoking that stuff is dangerous.

Run as you may, you can not escape the wrath of the almighty bung hole, for I am the almighty bungholio!
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post #20 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 11:31 PM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
The EU has performed consumer advocacy.

Cellphone charges are much less due to EU regulation.

40 hour work weeks

Stronger privacy laws online.

It also means as an EU citizen you don't have to spend money on visas to travel through the EU.

It also means that Boris will facilitate the sale of the NHS to American providers.
The NHS is not for sale, didn't you know those documents Corbyn used somehow came from Russian sources. Tories have been in power many times and haven't sold the NHS yet!

40 hour weeks (yup for those who work and pay taxes to support all those who don't, what is wrong with that? Don't like working to support the welfare state? )

I voted against Brexit but I believe in democracy and if the majority want it then they must have it,

The Remoaners have to just accept that. This weeks results have reinforced that but instead we spend 3.5 years squabbling wasting time and money with parliamentarians trying to go against what the majority of the British electorate wanted all along.

Some people have voted Tory for the first time in their lives cause they are sick of the hard lefties and the rich spoilt liberals telling them how to vote and accusing them of being ill informed and ignorant. I think this week's backlash is speaking loud and clear. Why can't the left just bow out gracefully and accept that the UK is still a democracy.

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post #21 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Brexit

The political elite and left leaning news media didn't get it.

Then BLOWOUT !!!!

But they still refuse to believe it. Hilarious.
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post #22 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 02:02 AM
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Re: Brexit

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The political elite and left leaning news media didn't get it.

Then BLOWOUT !!!!

But they still refuse to believe it. Hilarious.
Alright, nunbnuts!

The referendum was to leave the EU. But EU only and during the campaign the Leave campaign made clear they wanted to stay in the Single Market.

This is true. I can prove it to you if I must.

Leave won and there are three groups:
1- Those who still want to Remain
2- Those who want to leave the EU
3- Those that want to leave the EU, single market etc

Both groups 2 and 3 cite democray. Group 2 cite democracy as the vote has to be seen to be respected. Group 3 are liars or morons - if you are in group 3 and do not think it is lying, I have bad news for you.

Group three are lead by groups who fear anti-tax evasion legisation from the EU, so they have to get out. Leaving the EU can take three forms. To keep it simple, you can choose two from the following three:
- Leave the SM and customs union
- Preserve the Good Friday Agreement and so maintain peace and international relations
- Preserve Northern Ireland as intergral to the UK

You cannot choose three, as they contradict each other. This is not because some snooty elitist is running the scheme to thwart the people. You cannot have a square triange and you cannot choose three.

There is no majority for any option. Crucially, there is almost no-one (and certainly no the Brexit Party) who will take respnsibility for the consequences.

@Marc878 is right, the media do not really get it and they have been thick. It does not help that there has not been honest or self-aware discussion. It seems that the EU represents the modern world. Very few people who want to Leave can actually cite a specfic real reason, but that is really not the point. People are broadly split by:
- Has your home town been transformed by immigration since you were 25? (before that age, everything seems normal and natural)
- Are you skeptical of AGW? There are plenty of Leavers who believe in climate change, but almost all climate chance skeptics believe in Brexit. This is from not seeing things are an inter-related mess, but as having a natural state in themselves. A British racist, flat Earther will certainly be pro-Brexit.
- Has the modern world disrespected people like you? - The EU is seen as modern, for populists who believe that there is an outside corrupting force, it will be a target. In the past they would have blamed the Catholics.

People who can blame the modern world tend to be less qualified people, who have lost a position of social status. This includes toffs who fear their inherent right to be better than normal peopple and unqualified, unskilled working class men are both on this side. This group refer to themselves as "the people" and when they refer to the elite it tends to be people imore likely to be in full time employment (a trend rather than an absolure), those who get most from the modern world and the young.

The hard right are pretty good on this. The discussion I have had seem to suggest they see the bad sides and think it will be worth it.
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post #23 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 05:49 AM
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Re: Brexit

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No-one is actually bothered by the EU. If those that said they were opposed to the EU actually were, they would be able to specify exactly what they are against, what they would like instead and why it would be better. Instead, we will get generalitions. It comes from something deeper.
Yeah. I've been reading a lot about this. It's so interesting to me.

I get what you mean about "generalizations". Like that it's oppressive.
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post #24 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 05:56 AM
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Re: Brexit

I don't get all this hostility towards the EU. The foundation of the European Union has guaranteed a war-free Europe for many many years. That alone is enough for me to stay in the union. BTW, I'm not British, I'm from a EU country. The Brits just don't get the EU. They are a very insular nation with imperialistic/nostalgic views of the world. They think they are a superior bunch, but, sadly, it's actually the opposite... getting out of the EU is a big big mistake.
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post #25 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:11 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by In Absentia View Post
I don't get all this hostility towards the EU. The foundation of the European Union has guaranteed a war-free Europe for many many years. That alone is enough for me to stay in the union. BTW, I'm not British, I'm from a EU country. The Brits just don't get the EU. They are a very insular nation with imperialistic/nostalgic views of the world. They think they are a superior bunch, but, sadly, it's actually the opposite... getting out of the EU is a big big mistake.
Well, I am a Remainer, but a post like that brings out the inner Nigel Farage in me!
It is a cop out to blame the press, but from living around Western Europe there are two things that struck me:
- The food really is not that much better at all (depending on where you are, it can be much better or worse).
- The UK is a lot more popular than I realised.

People in Britain assume we are looked down on and disliked. To a certain extent, that will be returned, but it is actually not true at all.

The other aspect is that Brexit has very little to do with the EU. Someone fully behind the #MeToo movement will be a remainer, someone who hates the movement will be a Leaver - nothing to do with the EU. If you think climate change is a hoax, you are almost certainly a Leaver.

If you think society has an intrinsically right and proper form and should be like a strict Father. He might be unfair, but you have your proper place and to lead your life according to that is right and proper. To this mindset, conservatism is natural and so is brexit. You will see the nation like a farm stead, that runs well and peacefully, unless there is interference from outside. The best thing to do is to stick to when things were done properly (i.e. exactly how it seemed when I was 25) and climate change is clearly a scam. The worst aspect of this thinking is when it leads to "I'm alright Jack" thinking.

If you think that there is no intrinsic society, and that things are circumstancial and constant reform not only OK, but to be desired. How you live is not only affected by outside forces but is part of them. People like this will see the UK as being like an apartment in a building, where co-operation with the neighbours is important as we share walls. Climate change is clearly real. The worst aspect of this is moral relativism or a "we are all guilty" attitude.

Few on either side of the climate change debate, or evolution vs creationism, or Brexit actually have deep understanding. We are right and wrong largely by co-incidence. Except, we only have one land border and I still have to meet a Brexiter who will accept a decision has to be made about the border and that there will be consequences.

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post #26 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Brexit

It seems from what I've read and seen the pro brexit side sees the EU as taking away their basic rights and they feel like they aren't heard or have any say.

If you look at the other side and most of the news media they are stupid, lower class that really shouldn't be allowed to vote because the elite and media know more about what they really need.

It sounds like they aren't necessarily racist or xenophobic (which is how they seemed to be getting labeled) but feel like they are alienated in their own country.

This is very similar to "the deplorables" labeled by Hilary Clinton in the last election.

Eerily similar circumstances. The politicians and news media don't seem to understand or get that either.
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post #27 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:13 AM
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
The EU has performed consumer advocacy.

Cellphone charges are much less due to EU regulation.

40 hour work weeks

Stronger privacy laws online.

It also means as an EU citizen you don't have to spend money on visas to travel through the EU.

It also means that Boris will facilitate the sale of the NHS to American providers.
I am amazed at how many believe those labour lies about the NHS being sold off.
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post #28 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:13 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
They were misinformed. Boris and a couple of pals claimed that the UK sent GBP350M a week to the EU or something like that. And that that money could be spent on the NHS.

the first part is not true. And the Tories are ready to privatise the NHS.
No they aren't.
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post #29 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:19 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Mr The Other View Post
No-one is actually bothered by the EU. If those that said they were opposed to the EU actually were, they would be able to specify exactly what they are against, what they would like instead and why it would be better. Instead, we will get generalitions. It comes from something deeper.
Many are bothered by the EU. Countries should be able to enforce their own laws, make their own decisions, decide who comes into their country, have their own currency, set their own taxes, send criminals back to where they come from, have their own army and so on and so on.
I for one am very happy at the election result, we can get brexit done without all the remainers doing all they can to stop it despite saying they would respect the result of the referendum.
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post #30 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:22 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
They were misinformed. Boris and a couple of pals claimed that the UK sent GBP350M a week to the EU or something like that. And that that money could be spent on the NHS.

the first part is not true. And the Tories are ready to privatise the NHS.
We do at present pay a vast amount of money to the EU.
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