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post #31 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:23 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by OnTheFly View Post
So....I keep hearing that democracy is good, so good in fact, it needs to be spread with warfare.

But, then, a bunch of people vote to leave an oppressive bureaucratic nightmare and that country's version of the ''swamp'' says, "nah, maybe later, probably never"

Then people are surprised and whine about the ensuing landslide?

Weird, amirite?
Its only good when they get their own way. If thy don't then they ignore it.

I am SO happy that the people have spoken again. It cant be ignored this time.

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post #32 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:24 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by aine View Post
The NHS is not for sale, didn't you know those documents Corbyn used somehow came from Russian sources. Tories have been in power many times and haven't sold the NHS yet!

No, it's been contracted out by SIR Richard Branson who overcharges for their services.

40 hour weeks (yup for those who work and pay taxes to support all those who don't, what is wrong with that? Don't like working to support the welfare state? ) Would you rather work 40+ hours for the same purpose. That's what would have happened.
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post #33 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:27 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Marc878 View Post
It seems from what I've read and seen the pro brexit side sees the EU as taking away their basic rights and they feel like they aren't heard or have any say.

If you look at the other side and most of the news media they are stupid, lower class that really shouldn't be allowed to vote because the elite and media know more about what they really need.

It sounds like they aren't necessarily racist or xenophobic (which is how they seemed to be getting labeled) but feel like they are alienated in their own country.

This is very similar to "the deplorables" labeled by Hilary Clinton in the last election.

Eerily similar circumstances. The politicians and news media don't seem to understand or get that either.
Yes we have been portrayed as being 'thick racists' and that they know what is best for us, how arrogant is that?
They had under estimated how angry and fed up many were, and now they have had their comeuppance.
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post #34 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:29 AM
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Re: Brexit

I think you might have quoted the wrong post?


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Originally Posted by Mr The Other View Post
Well, I am a Remainer, but a post like that brings out the inner Nigel Farage in me!
It is a cop out to blame the press, but from living around Western Europe there are two things that struck me:
- The food really is not that much better at all (depending on where you are, it can be much better or worse).
- The UK is a lot more popular than I realised.

People in Britain assume we are looked down on and disliked. To a certain extent, that will be returned, but it is actually not true at all.

The other aspect is that Brexit has very little to do with the EU. Someone fully behind the #MeToo movement will be a remainer, someone who hates the movement will be a Leaver - nothing to do with the EU. If you think climate change is a hoax, you are almost certainly a Leaver.

If you think society has an intrinsically right and proper form and should be like a strict Father. He might be unfair, but you have your proper place and to lead your life according to that is right and proper. To this mindset, conservatism is natural and so is brexit. You will see the nation like a farm stead, that runs well and peacefully, unless there is interference from outside. The best thing to do is to stick to when things were done properly (i.e. exactly how it seemed when I was 25) and climate change is clearly a scam. The worst aspect of this thinking is when it leads to "I'm alright Jack" thinking.

If you think that there is no intrinsic society, and that things are circumstancial and constant reform not only OK, but to be desired. How you live is not only affected by outside forces but is part of them. People like this will see the UK as being like an apartment in a building, where co-operation with the neighbours is important as we share walls. Climate change is clearly real. The worst aspect of this is moral relativism or a "we are all guilty" attitude.

Few on either side of the climate change debate, or evolution vs creationism, or Brexit actually have deep understanding. We are right and wrong largely by co-incidence. Except, we only have one land border and I still have to meet a Brexiter who will accept a decision has to be made about the border and that there will be consequences.
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post #35 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:30 AM
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Re: Brexit

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The NHS is not for sale, didn't you know those documents Corbyn used somehow came from Russian sources. Tories have been in power many times and haven't sold the NHS yet!

40 hour weeks (yup for those who work and pay taxes to support all those who don't, what is wrong with that? Don't like working to support the welfare state? )

I voted against Brexit but I believe in democracy and if the majority want it then they must have it,

The Remoaners have to just accept that. This weeks results have reinforced that but instead we spend 3.5 years squabbling wasting time and money with parliamentarians trying to go against what the majority of the British electorate wanted all along.

Some people have voted Tory for the first time in their lives cause they are sick of the hard lefties and the rich spoilt liberals telling them how to vote and accusing them of being ill informed and ignorant. I think this week's backlash is speaking loud and clear. Why can't the left just bow out gracefully and accept that the UK is still a democracy.
They never will, hence the first of the demonstrations last night clashing with police. Placards such as 'Boris, not my PM', and others. Well you are free to go and live elsewhere if they will have you.
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post #36 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:32 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
Its only good when they get their own way. If thy don't then they ignore it.

I am SO happy that the people have spoken again. It cant be ignored this time.
@Diana7 please tell me what you don't like about being in the EU and why the UK is so much better off out of it... I still have to hear a convincing argument...
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post #37 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:35 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by In Absentia View Post
I don't get all this hostility towards the EU. The foundation of the European Union has guaranteed a war-free Europe for many many years. That alone is enough for me to stay in the union. BTW, I'm not British, I'm from a EU country. The Brits just don't get the EU. They are a very insular nation with imperialistic/nostalgic views of the world. They think they are a superior bunch, but, sadly, it's actually the opposite... getting out of the EU is a big big mistake.
Its the best thing we have done for decades, oh and most of what you said is wrong. Yes we get the EU clearly, which is why we want out. We don't think we are superior, we are not insular any more than any other island, we are perfectly happy to be Europeans, just not members of the EU. Big difference.

Last edited by Diana7; 12-14-2019 at 07:53 AM.
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post #38 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:39 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
Its the best thing we have done for decades, oh and most of what you said is wrong. Yes we get the EU clearly, which is why we want out. We don't think we are superior, we are not insular, and we are perfectly happy to be Europeans, just not members of the EU. Big difference.
I think we agree to disagree... I hope you won't regret it!
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post #39 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 07:53 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
They never will, hence the first of the demonstrations last night clashing with police. Placards such as 'Boris, not my PM', and others. Well you are free to go and live elsewhere if they will have you.
Tories = 46%, Lab + Lib Dems + SNP + Greens = 53%... without this silly electoral system (and without Corbyn), the Tories wouldn't be in government...
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post #40 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 08:02 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by In Absentia View Post
@Diana7 please tell me what you don't like about being in the EU and why the UK is so much better off out of it... I still have to hear a convincing argument...
The EU was meant to be just a trading agreement. Its become SO much more. I just want my country to be able to make all of its own decisions and not be dictated to by unelected leaders who just want a European superstate. We should celebrate our differences, not seek to make us all have to come under this superstate umberella.
Each country has its own needs and wants, each has very different governments with very different agendas, you can never seek to make laws that will suit them all.
Also its got far too big, and we have to contribute vast sums of money when we have so many pressing needs here at home.

We have broken new ground but we wont be the last to leave. Once we are out, others will have the courage to do the same.

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post #41 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 08:03 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
Many are bothered by the EU. Countries should be able to enforce their own laws, make their own decisions, decide who comes into their country, have their own currency, set their own taxes, send criminals back to where they come from, have their own army and so on and so on.
I for one am very happy at the election result, we can get brexit done without all the remainers doing all they can to stop it despite saying they would respect the result of the referendum.
Would you be so kind as to give me a specific examples of EU imposed laws you look forward to being removed? Two or three perhaps, to give a flavour.
When do you expect brexit to be done by?
Also, which two of three would you choose?
- Leaving the single market and customs union
- Keeping the Good Friday Agreement (i.e. open border with Ireland)
- Maintaining the integrity of Northern Ireland as part of the UK.
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post #42 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 08:05 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by In Absentia View Post
I don't get all this hostility towards the EU. The foundation of the European Union has guaranteed a war-free Europe for many many years. That alone is enough for me to stay in the union. BTW, I'm not British, I'm from a EU country. The Brits just don't get the EU. They are a very insular nation with imperialistic/nostalgic views of the world. They think they are a superior bunch, but, sadly, it's actually the opposite... getting out of the EU is a big big mistake.
It was the right post. I am a remainer, but the bit in bold was rather forthright.
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post #43 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 08:06 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
We do at present pay a vast amount of money to the EU.
Yes, but it is clearly economically beneficial. We will, after all, be desperately seeking a deal with the USA which is further away and in which we will largel have to accept terms imposed on us rather than being one of the big three in charge.
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post #44 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 08:08 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by In Absentia View Post
@Diana7 please tell me what you don't like about being in the EU and why the UK is so much better off out of it... I still have to hear a convincing argument...
To be fair, there are places of intellectual debate to get that sort of thing, rather than here.
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post #45 of 162 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 08:08 AM
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by In Absentia View Post
Tories = 46%, Lab + Lib Dems + SNP + Greens = 53%... without this silly electoral system (and without Corbyn), the Tories wouldn't be in government...
What a nightmare senario that would have been. Tories got by far the most number of votes of any party. Thats the way democracy works.
There were many reasons people voted for the Tories. One was brexit, one was because they didn't want a very left wing govt under Corbyn and John Macdonald and Diana Abbot, another was that many think that Boris will be a far better leader than any of the others, and another was that they didn't like the fact that labour and the Lib dem's lied about respecting the result of the referendum. Probably many more reasons as well.
Despite the magic money tree offers from labour, they did appallingly.
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