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post #181 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:11 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Fair enough.

What's your take?
my take is that trump finally did what should have been done years ago, but previous leaders were afraid to do.

anyone remember David Emanuel Hickman? he was my SAW gunners room mate, and a good friend. He was killed by an EFP(explosively formed projectile), a little over a month before we were supposed to be home. where do you think the EFP came from? ETA: it was of high enough quality that it was able to punch through a T- wall from 50 meters away, and the projectile held together well enough to punch through the cab of an MRAP and exit through the T wall on the other side. it was not a home made bomb...

its the kind of thing we have been dealing with for decades now.


"I am the wiser in respect to all knowledges, and the better qualified for all fortunes, for knowing that there is a minnow in the brook." -Henry David Thoreau
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post #182 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:11 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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I assume you were just as outraged when Obama/Biden had the US Military go in an take out Osama Bin Laden even though he was no longer a threat? Or the military engagement in Libya that Obama ordered for several months without Congressional Approval?
My outrage comes from the unintentional downing of a commercial airliner by Iran that resulted in the deaths of many Canadians, impacting people I know well.

And while I believe that accountability lies squarely on Iran, I do think that it wouldn't likely have happened if you guys didn't off the guy. Especially without talking to anyone about it. Like the American congress or "allies" that are becoming increasingly disinterested in being American allies any longer, because allegiance is a two way street.

I don't know how many times I can say that I am not defending Obama or anybody else, and that even trying to make that argument is a false dilemma. Meaning, anything Obama did wrong doesn't make anything Trump did right.
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post #183 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:16 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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my take is that trump finally did what should have been done years ago, but previous leaders were afraid to do.

anyone remember David Emanuel Hickman? he was my SAW gunners room mate, and a good friend. He was killed by an EFP(explosively formed projectile), a little over a month before we were supposed to be home. where do you think the EFP came from? ETA: it was of high enough quality that it was able to punch through a T- wall from 50 meters away, and the projectile held together well enough to punch through the cab of an MRAP and exit through the T wall on the other side. it was not a home made bomb...

its the kind of thing we have been dealing with for decades now.
I'm sorry about your friend.

Justification aside then - and I'll trust your judgement in the matter and stand corrected - do you think this was done correctly from a geopolitical perspective? It seems very reactionary and not well thought out from a repercussion perspective.
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post #184 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsideDownWorld11 View Post
I assume you were just as outraged when Obama/Biden had the US Military go in an take out Osama Bin Laden even though he was no longer a threat? Or the military engagement in Libya that Obama ordered for several months without Congressional Approval?
My outrage comes from the unintentional downing of a commercial airliner by Iran that resulted in the deaths of many Canadians, impacting people I know well.

And while I believe that accountability lies squarely on Iran, I do think that it wouldn't likely have happened if you guys didn't off the guy. Especially without talking to anyone about it. Like the American congress or "allies" that are becoming increasingly disinterested in being American allies any longer, because allegiance is a two way street.

I don't know how many times I can say that I am not defending Obama or anybody else, and that even trying to make that argument is a false dilemma. Meaning, anything Obama did wrong doesn't make anything Trump did right.
You seem to think we could just off this guy anytime. This was a guy that killed many of our guys and we had no reason to believe he would stop. Military spotted him in a convoy and took him out. Trump could have put it before Congress or NATO allies, they would have deliberated for months and either by then he would have killed more or disappeared.

Further, why commercial planes were flying around Iran at that point seems really dumb. Flying around Iran at any time is dumb, but when they are on high security alert... I can't comprehend.
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post #185 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:39 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I'm sorry about your friend.

Justification aside then - and I'll trust your judgement in the matter and stand corrected - do you think this was done correctly from a geopolitical perspective? It seems very reactionary and not well thought out from a repercussion perspective.
im not going to give an opinion on the politics of it. from a military perspective, it sent a pretty strong message.

what it comes down to is this: Trump was not afraid to kill him, while our previous administrations were. as a soldier, i have no problem with it. Soleimani has spent years killing us with no repercussions. iran has spent years killing us with no repercussions. i dont think they believed we would ever have the guts to do anything about it.

how they respond, we shall see.

"I am the wiser in respect to all knowledges, and the better qualified for all fortunes, for knowing that there is a minnow in the brook." -Henry David Thoreau
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post #186 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:42 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by UpsideDownWorld11 View Post
You seem to think we could just off this guy anytime. This was a guy that killed many of our guys and we had no reason to believe he would stop. Military spotted him in a convoy and took him out. Trump could have put it before Congress or NATO allies, they would have deliberated for months and either by then he would have killed more or disappeared.
I'll defer very much to @As'laDain here, but it's my understanding that the guy was a potential target for months. So there was obviously time for the deliberation.

And regarding the deliberation... shouldn't it be deliberated with cool heads what the potential implications would be here? Wouldn't it be a good thing and not a bad thing?

Quote:
Further, why commercial planes were flying around Iran at that point seems really dumb. Flying around Iran at any time is dumb, but when they are on high security alert... I can't comprehend.
Wouldn't it have been a good thing to inform your allies also active in the region and with citizens in the region that you were about to potentially go to war?

This whole deal seems very cowboy and unilateral, with disregard for any unintended consequences and the international relationships fostered.

Again, I'll defer to @As'laDain on this, but that's the way it appears.
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post #187 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:48 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
im not going to give an opinion on the politics of it. from a military perspective, it sent a pretty strong message.

what it comes down to is this: Trump was not afraid to kill him, while our previous administrations were. as a soldier, i have no problem with it. Soleimani has spent years killing us with no repercussions. iran has spent years killing us with no repercussions. i dont think they believed we would ever have the guts to do anything about it.

how they respond, we shall see.
And I love you brother, but that's my problem with the whole thing.

From a military perspective, job done and from what you say with good justification.

Geopolitically? Who the hell knows, and it sure doesn't look like Trump or anybody else gave it a second thought.
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post #188 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsideDownWorld11 View Post
You seem to think we could just off this guy anytime. This was a guy that killed many of our guys and we had no reason to believe he would stop. Military spotted him in a convoy and took him out. Trump could have put it before Congress or NATO allies, they would have deliberated for months and either by then he would have killed more or disappeared.
I'll defer very much to @As'laDain here, but it's my understanding that the guy was a potential target for months. So there was obviously time for the deliberation.

And regarding the deliberation... shouldn't it be deliberated with cool heads what the potential implications would be here? Wouldn't it be a good thing and not a bad thing?

Quote:
Further, why commercial planes were flying around Iran at that point seems really dumb. Flying around Iran at any time is dumb, but when they are on high security alert... I can't comprehend.
Wouldn't it have been a good thing to inform your allies also active in the region and with citizens in the region that you were about to potentially go to war?

This whole deal seems very cowboy and unilateral, with disregard for any unintended consequences and the international relationships fostered.

Again, I'll defer to @As'laDain on this, but that's the way it appears.
Almost a week had passed between US offed the Iranian dude and the plane was shot down. No way I'd be flying around Iran anytime soon. Canada should have had plenty of time to warn its citizens. Don't you think?
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post #189 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 03:58 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by UpsideDownWorld11 View Post
Almost a week had passed between US offed the Iranian dude and the plane was shot down. No way I'd be flying around Iran anytime soon. Canada should have had plenty of time to warn its citizens. Don't you think?
You mean the ones that were already there?

At any rate, don't you think it would be perceived differently by your allies if America had given us the heads up and the plane was still shot down? We'd immediately be involved and ready to deal with the blowback - including taking a role in taking accountability for at least knowing about it.

Again, Iran did it. It's their fault. But I don't think it would have happened if it would have happened differently.

We're pretty pissed off about the whole thing up here. Probably doesn't matter to most Americans. But again, unintended consequences.
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post #190 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 04:02 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I'll defer very much to @As'laDain here, but it's my understanding that the guy was a potential target for months. So there was obviously time for the deliberation.

And regarding the deliberation... shouldn't it be deliberated with cool heads what the potential implications would be here? Wouldn't it be a good thing and not a bad thing?



Wouldn't it have been a good thing to inform your allies also active in the region and with citizens in the region that you were about to potentially go to war?

This whole deal seems very cowboy and unilateral, with disregard for any unintended consequences and the international relationships fostered.

Again, I'll defer to @As'laDain on this, but that's the way it appears.
if Trump had done as you suggest, i doubt Soleimani would be dead right now.


"I am the wiser in respect to all knowledges, and the better qualified for all fortunes, for knowing that there is a minnow in the brook." -Henry David Thoreau
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post #191 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 04:06 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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if Trump had done as you suggest, i doubt Soleimani would be dead right now.
Based on access to him outside of Iran? By which I mean, there was an unwillingness or inability to assassinate him within Iran?
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post #192 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 06:30 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
my take is that trump finally did what should have been done years ago, but previous leaders were afraid to do.

anyone remember David Emanuel Hickman? he was my SAW gunners room mate, and a good friend. He was killed by an EFP(explosively formed projectile), a little over a month before we were supposed to be home. where do you think the EFP came from? ETA: it was of high enough quality that it was able to punch through a T- wall from 50 meters away, and the projectile held together well enough to punch through the cab of an MRAP and exit through the T wall on the other side. it was not a home made bomb...

its the kind of thing we have been dealing with for decades now.
If you read up this is just one indecent. Iranís connection and funding of terrorist acts goes back 30-40 years. The Beirut bombings, kidnapping, torture and assassinations (these are well documented and they even sent videos of the torture out - Col William Buckley, techniques ISIS used later , etc, etc, etc.

So we should have meetings, inform Anyone and everyone before any actions are taken is real naive. There isnít going to be a 3 day window.

If youíve read history appeasement only emboldens.

Iran tried the same thing with the Soviet Union once. It was dealt with immediately and ended very quickly.

This started long before Obamaís term but he carried on the same as before him.
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post #193 of 195 (permalink) Old 01-16-2020, 07:23 PM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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If you read up this is just one indecent. Iranís connection and funding of terrorist acts goes back 30-40 years. The Beirut bombings, kidnapping, torture and assassinations (these are well documented and they even sent videos of the torture out - Col William Buckley, techniques ISIS used later , etc, etc, etc.

So we should have meetings, inform Anyone and everyone before any actions are taken is real naive. There isnít going to be a 3 day window.

If youíve read history appeasement only emboldens.

Iran tried the same thing with the Soviet Union once. It was dealt with immediately and ended very quickly.

This started long before Obamaís term but he carried on the same as before him.
Yep.

I just used that example because i was there when it happened.

Soleimani was a real piece of work...

"I am the wiser in respect to all knowledges, and the better qualified for all fortunes, for knowing that there is a minnow in the brook." -Henry David Thoreau
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post #194 of 195 (permalink) Old 02-03-2020, 11:39 AM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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That is tier way of saving face. Did you notice the missed hitting any personnel?
They did injure a whole bunch of our personnel, which the administration lied about. That was their way of saving face.
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post #195 of 195 (permalink) Old 02-03-2020, 11:51 AM
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Re: Time to get this war going!

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My outrage comes from the unintentional downing of a commercial airliner by Iran that resulted in the deaths of many Canadians, impacting people I know well.

And while I believe that accountability lies squarely on Iran, I do think that it wouldn't likely have happened if you guys didn't off the guy.
This is sensible, but if we accept it we Yanks would have to either accept full responsibility for shooting down IR655 w/ a loss of 290 civilians in 1988 or explain how the two situations are different.
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