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post #16 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 12:51 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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It's funny how educated people run the vast majority of most organizations, and yet education is the problem because you don't like some of those organizations.



There is a profound anti-science and anti-education sentiment that's growing. Which is actually anti-rational, as in irrational. And proudly so.



The problem with these kinds of things is that you can ignore reality for a little while, but reality always wins. You can pretend that polio vaccines don't work, for example, but eventually you're gonna get polio.



Similarly, you can pretend that education doesn't work for a little while and get away with it, and then the rest of the world eats your lunch because STEM is what is driving the human civilization forward, no matter what your opinion is about it. The funny thing about science (and engineering and math) is that it treats opinions - and censorship - as flaws to be routed around. And that includes groups that decide such things are safely ignored.
Sort of like ignoring the reality that institutions of higher learning are at the forefront of suspension of fundamental rights, such as freedom of speech and due process?

Or ignoring the fact that these same institutions of higher learning are promoting policies from one side and not another?

Look...we all see what we want to see.

Nothing in what I quoted from you is necessarily wrong.

But it only addresses part of the equation...which is the part in which YOU wish to see change...just like 2ntnuf wants to see change from Antifa...just like I believe conservatism and libertarianism is spectacularly underrepresented in academia...and so on...and so on...

However, one should strive to be objective enough to see the entire picture, as opposed to the part of the picture that supports our own pre-conceived notions.

Ain't cognitive bias a mother ****er?

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post #17 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:04 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

Pick a group, there are violent, stupid, impulsive people in it.

Whether you define the group by it's worst seems to depend on whether or not you agree with it. 2nt, prefers to just stuff random videos of people being stupid as an example of why everything they might believe in is wrong. More power to him, I guess, but I don't see any rational argument against anything that is going on.

We all agree here that violence is bad, people shouldn't destroy property, harm others, or whatever, in the name of whatever it is they are supporting. No one denies the truth of that here.

However, if you say that Antifa has some good points, it must mean you think we should destroy everything. I find it interesting that conservatives seem to be able to distance themselves from white supremacists and incels (even going so far as to blame liberals for incels, which is odd), but with liberals, we have to take them all and embrace them.

Apparently, I want to start fires, break windows, and kick people. Who knew.
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post #18 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:04 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

I donít see a problem.
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post #19 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

Thanks(to everyone) for participating. Please continue posting your personal opinions and discuss as you feel the need.

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post #20 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:10 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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Or ignoring the fact that these same institutions of higher learning are promoting policies from one side and not another?
Myth of the Liberal Campus
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post #21 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:13 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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Or ignoring the fact that these same institutions of higher learning are promoting policies from one side and not another?
No argument, but I do think the reasons matter. I would argue that tertiary education has been typically more liberal than the society in which is is embedded since the time of the Greeks.

There is no left-wing cabal of Public Universities around the nation, run and funded by George Soros, which ensures that conservatism is under-represented in academia. It is a result of the expected promotion of the ideas and notions of the faculty employed therein, from the adjunct professors to the Dean. And to be clear, we really are only talking about a classic Liberal Arts (see? right there in the title ) education. As a STEM major, I never got a whiff of the political leanings of my professors because they were teaching math, physics, chemistry, electronics, and evolution (wink, wink).

There's a reason for the saying "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative by 40 you have no brain". Young people are passionate about things that have a liberal bias, and young people are the primary university population. Is it really surprising to see their goals and aspirations reflected in the culture? Expanding our knowledge base is frequently an inherently anti-conservative exercise insofar as it upends the status quo.

If you want more representation of conservative idealogy, then you have to graduate more professors and grad students who are so inclined. In fact, you already have them, although they tend to gravitate more towards the private and religious institutions than the public universities.

I look at it like the gender problem in STEM. Folks who want equal female representation in STEM are making the fallacy that equality only comes when there's a 50/50 split in representation. What if more men want to develop micro-electronics than women? Is that bias? Would forcing an equivalency then not be both unnatural and unwise?

Anyway, just a long rant to say that the liberal bias in education does not surprise me any more than the conservative bias in religion. Those things just go together like peanut butter and jelly.
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post #22 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:15 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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Apparently, I want to start fires, break windows, and kick people. Who knew.

I did. You weren't fooling me.
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post #23 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:16 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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You assume I was approaching this from an indoctrination standpoint? That was the direction of the link you posted.

I think institutions of higher learning are not overtly attempting to indoctrinate students. That would necessitate them having to overcome any number of preconceived notions (left or right, right or wrong) the students come to campus possessing from their FOO, experience, etc.

Rather, I believe that most people drawn to that career field are leftists of one flavor or another.

In other words, the 'indoctrination' is the unintended consequence of the mentality of those who feel called to a career in academia.

And maybe I am wrong that it isn't pervasive...or even prevalent...but it sure as **** isn't insignificant, either.

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post #24 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:21 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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You assume I was approaching this from an indoctrination standpoint? That was the direction of the link you posted.

I think institutions of higher learning are not overtly attempting to indoctrinate students. That would necessitate them having to overcome any number of preconceived notions (left or right, right or wrong) the students come to campus possessing from their FOO, experience, etc.

Rather, I believe that most people drawn to that career field are leftists of one flavor or another.

In other words, the 'indoctrination' is the unintended consequence of the mentality of those who feel called to a career in academia.

And maybe I am wrong that it isn't pervasive...or even prevalent...but it sure as **** isn't insignificant, either.

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College professors are not like teachers though. Most of them are doing what they do to continue to pursue the field they are interested in. Not because they love teaching or even want to teach. I would say that a great many of my professors had no interest in teaching other than furthering their research. If they could do what they wanted to do in industry with the freedom they have in academia, they would be gone in a second.

That article talks a good deal about that, as well as how the vast majority of college professors/teachers are afraid of being fired if they get political.

Additionally, I have a science degree, from a large college in a bible belt state. I can assure you it was not even close to liberal leaning, even though it was a state university.
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post #25 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:30 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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No argument, but I do think the reasons matter. I would argue that tertiary education has been typically more liberal than the society in which is is embedded since the time of the Greeks.

There is no left-wing cabal of Public Universities around the nation, run and funded by George Soros, which ensures that conservatism is under-represented in academia. It is a result of the expected promotion of the ideas and notions of the faculty employed therein, from the adjunct professors to the Dean. And to be clear, we really are only talking about a classic Liberal Arts (see? right there in the title ) education. As a STEM major, I never got a whiff of the political leanings of my professors because they were teaching math, physics, chemistry, electronics, and evolution (wink, wink).

There's a reason for the saying "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative by 40 you have no brain". Young people are passionate about things that have a liberal bias, and young people are the primary university population. Is it really surprising to see their goals and aspirations reflected in the culture? Expanding our knowledge base is frequently an inherently anti-conservative exercise insofar as it upends the status quo.

If you want more representation of conservative idealogy, then you have to graduate more professors and grad students who are so inclined. In fact, you already have them, although they tend to gravitate more towards the private and religious institutions than the public universities.

I look at it like the gender problem in STEM. Folks who want equal female representation in STEM are making the fallacy that equality only comes when there's a 50/50 split in representation. What if more men want to develop micro-electronics than women? Is that bias? Would forcing an equivalency then not be both unnatural and unwise?

Anyway, just a long rant to say that the liberal bias in education does not surprise me any more than the conservative bias in religion. Those things just go together like peanut butter and jelly.
Wonder why.



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post #26 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:33 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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Antifa is not "wrong" in what they stand for, only in the means by which they are attempting to manufacture the change they desire. I don't see anyone here defending their violent actions, do you? What exactly are you trying to accomplish in this discussion?

Standing against fascism is a noble cause, as history has taught us. There have even been times and places when force WAS the reasonable response. I think they're wrong in their tactics today in America. Not sure what else to say.
So, normal people trying to attend a Trump rally are now nazis? Portland's local Republican Party sponsoring a parade float is nazism?

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post #27 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:33 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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College professors are not like teachers though. Most of them are doing what they do to continue to pursue the field they are interested in. Not because they love teaching or even want to teach. I would say that a great many of my professors had no interest in teaching other than furthering their research. If they could do what they wanted to do in industry with the freedom they have in academia, they would be gone in a second.



That article talks a good deal about that, as well as how the vast majority of college professors/teachers are afraid of being fired if they get political.



Additionally, I have a science degree, from a large college in a bible belt state. I can assure you it was not even close to liberal leaning, even though it was a state university.
I earned an MBA from a private, Christian University, also in the Bible belt.

My professors were probably 60/40 conservative/liberal. It surprised me, frankly, given my degree path and school, that it wasn't further skewed towards the conservative side.

That said, the difference was that each of the liberal leaning professors were significantly outspoken and confrontational over conclusions. I nearly failed a course focused on corporate-social responsibility because I wrote my final analysis from the standpoint of it not only being optional, but also not necessarily the best way to use the funds they were allocating for their various programs (a C was a failing grade in the program, I earned an 81...only my second B in the entire program).

She was a tyrant. So was the professor of psychology who taught Managerial Behavior. As was the Managerial Economics instructor, who was more a Keynesian subscriber than anything. This was just to name a few.

And this was at a Christian University in the Bible belt.

I understand this is anecdotal. However, there is too much coming from these institutions to ignore.

In other words, it may not be everything, but it is far from nothing.

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post #28 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:37 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

Reflecting back to my college days the best professors were the ones who had actually worked in the field (finance). The educational types who only had educational experience only (not so much).

I think colleges/universities should mix it up more. From what I’ve seen and been exposed to they tend to dwell on educational levels too much. I get why but practical experience means just as much.

I think this is where a lot of the rose colored glasses comes from. Not ever having to meet deadlines, forecasts, budgets and performance objectives leaves a lot off the table. The theory part which is mainly what you get is needed but it’s far from the whole enchilada.

This is mainly a business and finance perspective but I’d think it probably applies across the board.

However, I’m well aware nothings perfect.
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post #29 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:38 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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So, normal people trying to attend a Trump rally are now nazis? Portland's local Republican Party sponsoring a parade float is nazism?
I'm not speaking to any particular Antifa position, since I do not follow them closely. I'm only referring to their stated anti-fascist platform, in the generic sense, and my genuine belief that nationalism is on the rise in a manner not unlike that leading up to WWII. But you won't get any sky is falling rhetoric from me, and Antifa, like most politically active groups, engages in no small amount of hyperbole in promoting their arguments.
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post #30 of 212 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 01:45 PM
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Re: Incels, Antifa, Socialists, etc.

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I understand this is anecdotal. However, there is too much coming from these institutions to ignore.

In other words, it may not be everything, but it is far from nothing.
Likewise, I went to the local urban public university in a very liberal part of the country. My dynamics professor was an outstanding teacher who worked tirelessly to get the students to fully understand the subject matter in all of its complexity. He was also known for proselytizing during his office hours, to the point where he was reprimanded, IIRC.

Lucky for me, there was never a party line to swallow. The goings on of the universe care not a whit for politics. The band gap energy for a silicon junction is the same in Mississippi as it is in New York, and global warming was on hardly anyone's radar.
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