Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars? - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

https://markets.businessinsider.com/...0-1-1028842799

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'No one ever makes a billion dollars. You take a billion dollars': Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez slams billionaires for exploiting workers
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Please read at the link. It's very short.

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post #2 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 02:08 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

Absolutely on board with that concept. That is what I have been arguing about on this board for a long time. The extreme wealth at the top is made by exploiting the bottom. Globalization, mobilization, and technology have all made it easier for those on the top to do it efficiently. Leading to massive disparity and the economic climate we are fostering, not only in the US, but world wide.
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post #3 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 02:12 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

A lot of the people who whine about how the rich should be made to pay more tax always have the cut off point at their own salary/worth.
These arenít people on minimum wage, they are wealthy individuals but just not as wealthy as theyíd like to be.

When someone says itís not the money itís the principle,itís always the money.
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post #4 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 02:16 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

For the record, I have no problem paying more taxes.

Pretty awesome strawman/ad hominem combo attack though.
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post #5 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 02:19 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
https://markets.businessinsider.com/...0-1-1028842799



Opinions?

Comments?

Facts?

Please read at the link. It's very short.
Yes and no.

A person cannot 'make' a billion dollars. I mean, how would that work? Can you invent money, or invent an increase to the GDP from nothing?

But you can create a product you can sell and transfer a billion dollars of wealth from other people to you. You can do this by paying people to create a product, and then selling that product for more than you paid for the labour and resources to create it. Or you can extract resources from nature and sell it to people, again paying for labour to extract, package, and refine it, and typically pay royalties or taxes on the extraction from the commons.

Value creation from an economic perspective is interesting. For example, the more hands money goes through, the more value it has. There are all kinds of interesting aspects of economics that I barely understand, like https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eva.asp.

I think her point is to say that someone like Bezos didn't make his wealth magically appear. He got a bunch of people to make stuff very cheaply (including authors and factory workers), got them to sell that stuff on his platform (amazon), and leveraged the integrated supply chain and delivery systems from others to make a new, efficient model.

He doesn't make the stuff he sells is basically her point. Other people do, typically from low wage countries. He doesn't deliver the stuff they make, he hires low income earners in our countries to do it in a very commoditized high effort/low income way. He doesn't even directly sell anything to people - they built a scalable non-human transaction processing engine and inventory tracking system for that. He just profits off of all that, while putting in no net new effort along the way. And he makes a staggering amount of money doing it, which does actually mostly get extracted from our economies by doing so - the money sits there and doesn't do anything to benefit anyone else but him. It's no longer part of the economy as a whole, because he doesn't really buy anything, invest in anything, or give anything away. And he essentially does it all tax-free. I remember reading that Bezos and Amazon pays effectively zero taxes.
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post #6 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 02:24 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Originally Posted by Tasorundo View Post
For the record, I have no problem paying more taxes.

Pretty awesome strawman/ad hominem combo attack though.
Same here. I pay an astounding amount of taxes. I find it annoying, but I'm happy to contribute my share.

What annoys me is when I remember reading about one of the billionaires that paid less in taxes than I did. I mean, that's just stupid.
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post #7 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 03:10 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Value creation from an economic perspective is interesting. For example, the more hands money goes through, the more value it has.
A man drives into a small town one day and goes into the hotel. He asks for a room and the manager says that will be a hundred dollars. The customer gives him the hundred bucks, gets his key and heads off to his room.
The manager goes next door to the butcher store and pays the butcher the hundred bucks for meat which had been supplied earlier in the week.
The butcher goes over to the local garage and pays the mechanic a hundred dollars for work he had done on his truck.
The mechanic goes over to the local hookerís house and pays her a hundred bucks for services rendered.
The hooker goes over to the hotel and pays the manager a hundred dollars for rooms she had rented the previous weekend.
A short time later the original customer comes up to the hotel reception desk and tells the manager that he doesnít like the room so the manager gives him his money back.
And thatís how the economy works.

When someone says itís not the money itís the principle,itís always the money.
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post #8 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 03:12 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

lol She knows nothing of fiat fractional reserve system fraud it seems.


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post #9 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 03:36 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Yes and no.

A person cannot 'make' a billion dollars. I mean, how would that work? Can you invent money, or invent an increase to the GDP from nothing?

But you can create a product you can sell and transfer a billion dollars of wealth from other people to you. You can do this by paying people to create a product, and then selling that product for more than you paid for the labour and resources to create it. Or you can extract resources from nature and sell it to people, again paying for labour to extract, package, and refine it, and typically pay royalties or taxes on the extraction from the commons.

Value creation from an economic perspective is interesting. For example, the more hands money goes through, the more value it has. There are all kinds of interesting aspects of economics that I barely understand, like https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eva.asp.

I think her point is to say that someone like Bezos didn't make his wealth magically appear. He got a bunch of people to make stuff very cheaply (including authors and factory workers), got them to sell that stuff on his platform (amazon), and leveraged the integrated supply chain and delivery systems from others to make a new, efficient model.

He doesn't make the stuff he sells is basically her point. Other people do, typically from low wage countries. He doesn't deliver the stuff they make, he hires low income earners in our countries to do it in a very commoditized high effort/low income way. He doesn't even directly sell anything to people - they built a scalable non-human transaction processing engine and inventory tracking system for that. He just profits off of all that, while putting in no net new effort along the way. And he makes a staggering amount of money doing it, which does actually mostly get extracted from our economies by doing so - the money sits there and doesn't do anything to benefit anyone else but him. It's no longer part of the economy as a whole, because he doesn't really buy anything, invest in anything, or give anything away. And he essentially does it all tax-free. I remember reading that Bezos and Amazon pays effectively zero taxes.
So he really didn't "sit on the couch eating doritos" like AOC said, but had to work at it.
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post #10 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 04:21 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
A lot of the people who whine about how the rich should be made to pay more tax always have the cut off point at their own salary/worth.
These arenít people on minimum wage, they are wealthy individuals but just not as wealthy as theyíd like to be.
I support higher taxes on myself, of course with some provisos on what that money should be spent on .

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post #11 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 04:52 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

If this thread is more about taxes than how one becomes a billionaire, I have an idea:

I think that if persons wages remain stagnant over at least a five year period or more (that is any increase in income is below inflation indexes), their tax burden should be reduced in kind (as opposed to remaining static due to a persons tax bracket). In return, if ones wages increase over the same period of time (above inflation index), they should pay an extra tax (in kind). This regardless of how they acquired their income, paycheck, stock options, etc.


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post #12 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Yes and no.

A person cannot 'make' a billion dollars. I mean, how would that work? Can you invent money, or invent an increase to the GDP from nothing?

But you can create a product you can sell and transfer a billion dollars of wealth from other people to you. You can do this by paying people to create a product, and then selling that product for more than you paid for the labour and resources to create it. Or you can extract resources from nature and sell it to people, again paying for labour to extract, package, and refine it, and typically pay royalties or taxes on the extraction from the commons.

Value creation from an economic perspective is interesting. For example, the more hands money goes through, the more value it has. There are all kinds of interesting aspects of economics that I barely understand, like https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eva.asp.

I think her point is to say that someone like Bezos didn't make his wealth magically appear. He got a bunch of people to make stuff very cheaply (including authors and factory workers), got them to sell that stuff on his platform (amazon), and leveraged the integrated supply chain and delivery systems from others to make a new, efficient model.

He doesn't make the stuff he sells is basically her point. Other people do, typically from low wage countries. He doesn't deliver the stuff they make, he hires low income earners in our countries to do it in a very commoditized high effort/low income way. He doesn't even directly sell anything to people - they built a scalable non-human transaction processing engine and inventory tracking system for that. He just profits off of all that, while putting in no net new effort along the way. And he makes a staggering amount of money doing it, which does actually mostly get extracted from our economies by doing so - the money sits there and doesn't do anything to benefit anyone else but him. It's no longer part of the economy as a whole, because he doesn't really buy anything, invest in anything, or give anything away. And he essentially does it all tax-free. I remember reading that Bezos and Amazon pays effectively zero taxes.
So what or who is this guy she is talking about? If I understand you, he created some sort of tracking software to keep from hiring inventory personnel and accounting personnel? Sounds like database software. I don't know what kind or brand this guy created.

Maybe I am mistaken. I didn't look up the guy she was talking about.

The first thing I read when I clicked on the link disturbed me, but I guess there is a reason for it that directly benefits employees? I'm not sure.

Quote:
Economic value added (EVA) is a measure of a company's financial performance based on the residual wealth calculated by deducting its cost of capital from its operating profit, adjusted for taxes on a cash basis. EVA can also be referred to as economic profit, as it attempts to capture the true economic profit of a company. This measure was devised by management consulting firm Stern Value Management, originally incorporated as Stern Stewart & Co.
So, when you buy your child a car so they can get around at college, is it deductible? When you buy books, software and computers are those deductible? Still talking about for higher education.

Now, I could think to expand this into purchasing a home or rent, appliances and autos or mass transit costs. How or why? Well, I can't get to work and make the business money, if I don't have those.

I guess, either something isn't right with my thinking or something is fishy in Denmark.
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post #13 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 05:20 PM
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
the money sits there and doesn't do anything to benefit anyone else but him. It's no longer part of the economy as a whole, because he doesn't really buy anything, invest in anything, or give anything away.
Is that really true? I know little about economics, and maybe TAM isn't where I should be trying to learn it... but I guess I had assumed the money must be invested. I mean, how do you take money out of the system? Get it in gold and put it in a vault? If he keeps it in the bank, don't they use it to lend out? (I am genuinely puzzled, not debating you).
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post #14 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

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Originally Posted by Ikaika View Post
If this thread is more about taxes than how one becomes a billionaire, I have an idea:

I think that if persons wages remain stagnant over at least a five year period or more (that is any increase in income is below inflation indexes), their tax burden should be reduced in kind (as opposed to remaining static due to a persons tax bracket). In return, if ones wages increase over the same period of time (above inflation index), they should pay an extra tax (in kind). This regardless of how they acquired their income, paycheck, stock options, etc.


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It's about what Cortez talks about. Billionaires, taxes, or anything related to the rich, poor and middle class earning money and paying taxes. I wanted to talk about her ideas. We can start with what I posted, but you know it all works in with her ideas about billionaires.

Seems to me, there was a change in attitude in the seventies when some famous dude came up with a book idea on who cares about the little guy and saving money for their pensions or whatever. This was taught in universities and slowly spread across the world since.

Pick you topic. We're talking. I want to know why folks think she is right or wrong. I want to know then what the specifically think should be the means by which the poor and mid classes can be raised up without forcing businesses to leave the U.S. in the global economy, as someone mentioned.
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post #15 of 93 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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re: Does Anyone Ever Really Make a Billion Dollars?

There's a lot to talk about. It kind of falls into what Sanders and Pookyhontas discuss, too. I don't want to necessarily talk about those two, but more what these new radical ideas are and what they could mean to our country.

Yeah, we'll have to get into some detail. I guess... whatever.

Go for it. Just tell us what you think and why you think it will work or your opinion of Cortex or whatever.

Just Do It - tm
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