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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 01:14 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
Who are you? Don't answer that. It's rhetorical. You seem to be totally different in this post to many others I've seen. Maybe you just hate the **** out of me? I wouldn't know why.


Iím so confused.

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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 01:34 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

.

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 03:00 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Me too, or I wouldn't have posted that to you.


The difference is Iím confused by what you said. Not what I said.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 03:27 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 03:40 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Why? It's pretty clear. You are like two different posters. One is opposite the other.


Itís not clear at all. You apparently think I am a certain person in your head that Iím not. Not everyone fits in your boxes.
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 03:41 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Why? It's pretty clear. You are like two different posters. One is opposite the other.


Also you canít just delete things after you post them.
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 04:21 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

@Lila, will you delete this post and posts 14, 17 and 19? I'm sorry for the hijack. I had to get this out. I didn't want to pm anyone. I didn't want to start a thread on it, either.

Thanks.

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 06:48 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
@cp3o, a very well written reply. I see you have in you, some, maybe a lot of distaste of, maybe hate, for religion, likely mainstream JC teachings.
I have a strong conviction that irrational belief restricts and demeans the potential that human beings have for love, progress and contentment. Restricts and demeans at all levels from the individual, through family to global.

Supernatural belief is, by definition, irrational (attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature). Religion is a sector of supernatural belief. 10% of humanity does not have access to potable water, humanity is adversely affecting the sustainability of the planet's ecosystem, people are being emotionally and physically damaged because they don't conform to unrealistic stereotypes and religion is used, god(s) are invoked, "sacred" texts are quoted to justify inaction or worse.

And yes - a lot of religious people are good people - but there is no evidence to suggest that they are good because of their belief. Left to themselves good people do good things and bad people do bad things; but religion is one of the ways in which bad people get good people to do bad things.

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You are not alone in feeling these thoughts. I had them....too. Until, I did not.

Every religion was predated by some other theism, some other philosophy.

Ah, Hammurabi, preceded Socrates by some ~1300 years. Hammurabi's were the oldest 'recorded' laws. These were enforced, as Codes of behavior.

What YOU would prefer or desire becomes that shoulda, woulda, coulda.

Yes, it would be preferable to have a better, more realistic set of 'moral rules of behavior'. To have a better philosophy for mankind to aspire, to follow.....to.

Here comes the 'but'!

Good luck in bringing about a new and improved religion or Code of Living.

The present religions are solidly entrenched. It would be 'easier' to build off of those, to reform JC teachings, rather than to create a new one from scratch.
We disagree.

1 - Present religions are in decline - more so in the wealthier parts of the world where secular education is more readily available. The RCC is dependant upon Africa for its future - It has largely lost Europe and is waning in S America. In the UK (where we have a state religion) surveys consistently show "no religious allegiance" as the self-definition of over 50% - and that's held back by the older members of society. The Church of England claims only 1 in 16 as adherents. Islam has its noisy few - but most Muslims I know are little more than cultural Muslims (and most Jews seem to be non-observant) being more interested in having a decent home, a couple of well educated kids, nice car etc. than being controlled by archaic ignorance.

2 - How do you reform something that is based upon unevidenced and rationally unsupportable belief? The story of the Gospels, of the Koran, and many later offshoots is the attempts by Jesus of Nazareth to reform Judaism, of Mohammed trying to "correct" the Abrahamic concepts, of the Puritans, the Wesleys, Smith, Baker-Eddy etc. etc. all building (whatever their motivation) on existing flawed belief and producing yet another excuse for division, fear and discrimination. Islam is fractured into often violent competing intolerance, Buddhism has multiple flavours etc. etc..

When we don't know how to handle a problem the best course of action, IMO, is not to throw our hands up and blame an undetectable divinity, a mythic ancestor and/or our own imaginary inherited wickedness. Start with what we know. And seek what we don't know in ways that exclude human tendencies to see false causes and effects, treat coincidence as intent, hang on to sunk costs, worship at the altar of confirmation bias etc. etc. - all fallibilities that have served us well enough in the past but should be retired now they are counter-productive.

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The interim period is always the worrisome time period. Going from established religions to no religions, then to a New Era one.
Why get out of the hole only to leap into another?

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Wishful thinking, methinks.
Oh ye of little faith. And you may be right - but we seem to be getting there slowly - I doubt it will ever be total - the sharks are moving from god(s) to "wellbeing" and "self-improvement" - but the possibility of failure does not mandate the tolerance of despair does it?

Quote:
FYI, I am not a member of any religion.

I do believe in a Creator, or (One, God Head). 'All that is', fits under THIS umbrella.

I know, I know....what about Leprechauns?
Do they exist? I fear to say otherwise!!
And there you summarise the most powerful argument for the supernatural - you can't prove my belief to be false.

Pitifully underwhelming - but yet so comforting and seemingly protective if one has been conditioned to accept one's incompetence and unworthiness - and I'm back to the diminution of humanity that I started at aren't I?



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- transmitted by a friend.

I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. Richard P. Feynman
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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 07:30 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Originally Posted by cp3o View Post
I have a strong conviction that irrational belief restricts and demeans the potential that human beings have for love, progress and contentment. Restricts and demeans at all levels from the individual, through family to global.

Supernatural belief is, by definition, irrational (attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature). Religion is a sector of supernatural belief. 10% of humanity does not have access to potable water, humanity is adversely affecting the sustainability of the planet's ecosystem, people are being emotionally and physically damaged because they don't conform to unrealistic stereotypes and religion is used, god(s) are invoked, "sacred" texts are quoted to justify inaction or worse.

And yes - a lot of religious people are good people - but there is no evidence to suggest that they are good because of their belief. Left to themselves good people do good things and bad people do bad things; but religion is one of the ways in which bad people get good people to do bad things.

We disagree.

1 - Present religions are in decline - more so in the wealthier parts of the world where secular education is more readily available. The RCC is dependant upon Africa for its future - It has largely lost Europe and is waning in S America. In the UK (where we have a state religion) surveys consistently show "no religious allegiance" as the self-definition of over 50% - and that's held back by the older members of society. The Church of England claims only 1 in 16 as adherents. Islam has its noisy few - but most Muslims I know are little more than cultural Muslims (and most Jews seem to be non-observant) being more interested in having a decent home, a couple of well educated kids, nice car etc. than being controlled by archaic ignorance.

2 - How do you reform something that is based upon unevidenced and rationally unsupportable belief? The story of the Gospels, of the Koran, and many later offshoots is the attempts by Jesus of Nazareth to reform Judaism, of Mohammed trying to "correct" the Abrahamic concepts, of the Puritans, the Wesleys, Smith, Baker-Eddy etc. etc. all building (whatever their motivation) on existing flawed belief and producing yet another excuse for division, fear and discrimination. Islam is fractured into often violent competing intolerance, Buddhism has multiple flavours etc. etc..

When we don't know how to handle a problem the best course of action, IMO, is not to throw our hands up and blame an undetectable divinity, a mythic ancestor and/or our own imaginary inherited wickedness. Start with what we know. And seek what we don't know in ways that exclude human tendencies to see false causes and effects, treat coincidence as intent, hang on to sunk costs, worship at the altar of confirmation bias etc. etc. - all fallibilities that have served us well enough in the past but should be retired now they are counter-productive.

Why get out of the hole only to leap into another?



Oh ye of little faith. And you may be right - but we seem to be getting there slowly - I doubt it will ever be total - the sharks are moving from god(s) to "wellbeing" and "self-improvement" - but the possibility of failure does not mandate the tolerance of despair does it?



And there you summarise the most powerful argument for the supernatural - you can't prove my belief to be false.

Pitifully underwhelming - but yet so comforting and seemingly protective if one has been conditioned to accept one's incompetence and unworthiness - and I'm back to the diminution of humanity that I started at aren't I?
I have no need to prove anything false because I know and own some truths. Truth is a rare commodity, one that you can display and never get buyers. I care not for any such brotherly recognition. Not anymore, thank you.

........................................

This is not the, uh, proper thread for such thick wool, or is it Matka silk that causes you to chafe under your pained, your' collared, uptight existence.

Why so angry, so bitter?

You walk, you breathe, you love, ah, you hate. Is that not enough, not to despair?

Pained, you have laid out your lack of faith in all, including humanity in this small window pane, that is TAM.

Why so glum, live and let live.

Let others enjoy of their ignorance, let some fewer enjoy their enlightenment.

Why be Atlas, why carry the world foibles and folly upon your thin shoulders?
It ain't woith it.

Look at your riches, be happy for whatever they may be. Life is not of our creation, we must abide it, or be miserable and die from it....prematurely.

You are this collection of atoms, and molecules and yet you are mobile and you can think, muse, get amused.
Why spend this short life in frenzied anger?

Tilting at Windmills, yes, that be you, Cyrano.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out. The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall.
With The Host, RD back will there be any interest in telling Tales? Red Dog longs for his master?
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 08:51 PM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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I identify with this part. My father was an alcoholic and my mom was mentally ill, so she'd start in on her raging, the two of them would fight, my dad would leave and be at the bar all night, she'd be angry and take it out on us kids and beat us, and after I went to bed dad would stumble home from the bar. He didn't care if we were screamed at for hours or hurt. He didn't want to be so he left, and that left us kids to bear the brunt of a mentally ill mother.

Soooo...when I went to college, my very first college "party" was in the dorm, and I got literally black-out drunk (I wasn't used to drinking), and when I "came-to" a guy I didn't know was on top of me finishing. After he was done, he just zipped up and left--didn't say anything--just walked out of the room. This pretty much blew my mind because even though I wasn't a perfectly good girl in HS (I had a bf and we made out and even did some experimental type things in the back seat)...I wasn't promiscuous by a LONG SHOT. After I was raped, in a way I just kind of gave up, because I thought: "Well there's no point now." I still didn't sleep around, but mainly that was because no one like me back...I was that girl everyone would talk to about the crush they had on my roommate or the girl who'd play poker with the guys, you know? I did fall in love with one of my dorm-mates though, and we did sleep together.

Then along came my first husband. I was living in my own apartment and he was the security guard for my complex. He asked ME out and like the ladies in this study, he paid me attention so I felt like I owed him sex. And like the ladies, I married the first guy who would have me...I had no self-esteem whatsoever, so it seemed to me like he'd be the best I could do.

The point being that my dad was and still is a charming man (to his buddies at the bar and on a surface, casual level), but as a father, he still doesn't pay any attention to me whatsoever. I don't think we've spoken in years...he doesn't make any effort to talk to me at all. So before I went to counseling and learned of my own self-worth and value, I did crave male attention AND if a male gave me attention, I figured the price of attention was sex.
This is very common, actually. Lots of women go with whoever gives them some attention instead of being selective. Whatever their background, the problem is men don't know their role in their daughter's life. When it comes to children, lots of families place the kids into gender roles. During the adolescent years, bonding between males is more natural, and bonding between females is more natural. But daddy doesn't know he is the most important person in his daughter's life because he is her first love and first model. It's dad who needs to spend time with his daughter. It's dad who needs to instill self-esteem in his daughter. It's dad who needs to teach her about boys. It's dad who needs to teach her to have standards and self-respect. Dads don't know their role, and with the frequency of divorce, children born out of wedlock, and stepfamilies, too many kids either don't have a father or don't have much of a father. Girls need that male attention, so they look for it elsewhere and are vulnerable to any man that gives them attention because his attention makes them feel worthy of attention, like you said "He asked ME out" like you couldn't believe he was interested. That's often the way it goes.

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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

It was not my intent to indict religion per se, but rather a specific issue where one's sex life might be heavily impacted by a partner's beliefs, especially during the coming-of-age years. I'm probably guilty for issuing too broad a question and inviting an indictment of religion in general. That was not my intent. My Christian faith has served me well, but perhaps not so much my wife, who dealt with the issues I quoted from the thesis on Women, Sex & God; Women's sexuality and the internalization of religious messages.

Perhaps this should have been placed in the Women's Lounge? This forum say's it's the place to look for faith based solutions. I've brought up faith based problems.

Should I try a do-over? Ask the mods to delete this thread entirely and re-post in the Women's Lounge forum?
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:22 AM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

No, religious guilt isn't hurting my sex life.

It could have, yet being someone not inclined to consciously or unconsciously reinforce sexual shame it hasn't been an issue.

My wife grew up in a Italian Catholic family, while having all sorts of sexual thoughts and desires as a teenager. She had her first boyfriend just after she finished High School and got mixed messages of him not being good enough, not being Italian and having her parents say she should be married off to him right away.

She then hid her boyfriends from her family, although she didn't have sex with them. Of whom they were mostly good young Catholic men. Who were so passive, caring and accommodating that she found that to be too weak passive and boring.

She also had a father who at different times called her a prostitute and other charming derogatory terms for wanting to move out of her parents house in her twenties.

Yet she remained a virgin until she was a few months shy of 26 years old, saving herself for marriage, once considering becoming a nun even. Yet she started not believing that Catholicism was true, then not believing Christianity was true or any other religion and not believing in a god.

Then to her relief her father died, when she was near 26. So she then reconsidered her life and thought to herself "**** it", what am I waiting for and got on with having sex with a guy that she used to work with, who was keen on playing with her.

She had fun with him to a point. Although she quickly grew bored of the experience, having never orgasmed with him at all no matter what he tried (oh and he was an experienced divorced guy). It reached a point where, he would tell her she was having orgasms and she was mistaken that she wasn't.

She then met me at work, started chatting then asked me out on a date, we had sex on our third date and then she dumped the other guy.

The thing is despite waiting so long to have sex, plus with all the background stuff. She is a terrific, highly enthusiastic sexual partner with a broad range of proclivities who orgasms very easily from penis in vagina sex through any other kind of sex. I remember early on she told me she had never given a blow job and she was worried about it. The other guy was patient so she never did it to him. Yet I told her you'll learn, you're going to get lots of practice. So given a bit of time after initial clumsiness she got better at it and after awhile became highly skilled at the art.

My wife claims that my confidence, skill, and willingness to take from her and tell her what to do sexually, made her feel safe to be a wild sexual animal without feeling bad about it.

My ex-wife is also Catholic and her and I were each others firsts, for penis in vagina sex (she was 16 and I was 17), two to three hours after we met at a party. Now she was an active member of a church group and on and on etc. Yet there was nothing we wouldn't do or try with each other. We wanted to explore every mm of skin and every orifice in every way imaginable.

Oh and as an aside though related, FaithfulWife told you to believe your wife and respect that she doesn't see sex as a spiritual thing. My wife doesn't see sex as a spiritual thing, nor did my ex-wife, or a number of my other sexual partners. Yet we get a connection from sharing sex.

Yet for people like them and perhaps even your wife. Sex isn't about the airy fairy stuff, it is about the actual sexual pleasure of it. So without the pleasure of it, there's no desire to want to share sex. Some women really just want to be rooted well and don't care for or desire a spiritual experience from it.

So be mindful of that and consider that sex can be boring with the same person over and over without variety and without lust and carnal desire.

The impression I have is that you are quite passive when it comes to sex and taking your wife. So given that, you can't expect enthusiasm when you don't generate enthusiasm.

With my wife over the years, we have always added things switch things up to generate excitement. When we first started having sex she didn't do anal sex, didn't take golden showers, didn't take fisting, didn't sometimes have sex in public places, didn't pose nude for erotic art so on and so forth.

Yet she does all of that and much more now because, she feels safe to ****/fornicate and be sexual with abandon and without judgement. Of which the fact that you have issues with your wife's very tame and insignificant past is all about your ego and judgement of her, which doesn't help you or your wife have a better sex life.

If I wanted my wife to close her legs and not want to have sex with me. I would take issue with her past and would want her to think that sex is a spiritual experience and I would be passive instead of taking her lustfully and I would try to convince her that she is a broken person who needs counselling.

So if you really want her to be a great sexual partner, you could start by not judging her for a past (let it go for chrissakes) that wasn't wrong and doesn't belong to you anyway.

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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 02:20 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

@Personal I can only tell you that since things hit the fan back in February, there has been steady and significant improvement in our relationship. She herself would tell you that. We were on a road to nowhere prior. You assume judgment on my part while ignoring the possibility it's all about peeling back layers and discovering why the passion switch had been turned off. It's wonderful that the two women you referenced in your life were strong enough to not have the issues growing up that my wife did. You weren't chosen as someone to rescue them. Obviously, this is all on me, for not recognizing what I was getting into. But for you to assume that it's too late to change, or that there's a statute of limitations for truth... I would suggest that's situational. In my situation, in her situation, things are improving for the better.

A lot of ugly stuff has come out in the process. Would it have been better that she never had the opportunity to tell me that she resented sex for 30 years? Should she have not known that I was ready to leave?

So the thesis I posted, the excerpts... those were to help people who were in similar situations. You aren't. My hope is that people can recognize the issues very early in their relationships, and deal with it when it seems more relevant. They won't have to get raked over the coals like I have, for seeming to drag stuff up from the past that should no longer matter.

I'll continue to read posts here and reflect. IC & MC will be in my future, and my wife's, for quite some time. We both think we've got another 25 or so years ahead of us. We've both come to realize that marriage should not be a result of momentum but rather work. Work to make things better. And she's had to recognize that her future is a choice, not a given, and that has definitely helped change her thinking in terms of showing me an increasing amount of, what, attentive love? Hard to explain. But corny as it sounds, there's a feeling that she's falling for me again. Since she's a really bad actor and speaks her mind at the slightest frustration, it just might be real.

I'm very happy for you that none of this is anything you can relate to.
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 02:25 AM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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Obviously, this is all on me, for not recognizing what I was getting into.
It certainly isn't all on you.

Your wife is also responsible for her own choices as well.
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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 02:33 AM
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Re: Is religious guilt hurting your sex life?

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But for you to assume that it's too late to change, or that there's a statute of limitations for truth... I would suggest that's situational. In my situation, in her situation, things are improving for the better.
I don't assume it's too late to change, I don't even think a person can live a life without changing along the way. I doubt you are the same person you were 25 years ago, just as I doubt your wife is the same either.

Memories can fade and our recall and interpretation of events in our past or even recent history can be mistaken.

If you both want it, I'm all for both of you moving forward together.
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