Religion! - Page 9 - Talk About Marriage
Religion This is the place to discuss religion

User Tag List

 158Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #121 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 09:31 AM
Member
 
ConanHub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Abroad. Mid to eastern U.S.
Posts: 12,362
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyNorman View Post
How do you know this?

If true, what difference does it make?
Are you truly unaware that marriage predates all current governments?

ConanHub is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 10:16 AM
Member
 
OnTheFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,781
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson View Post
I think it would be very interesting to have a discussion about marriage and the Bible.
Yeah, it actually would!

Not only the technical aspects of marriage between men and women but also, more importantly, the concept of marriage as a ''picture'' or ''type and shadow'' of God's relationship, first with Israel and then the Church.

When the exception clause for divorce is restated in Matthew 19:9, it is poorly understood by Christians. But, when examined in relation to God's dealings with Israel, it becomes clearer. When it is again applied to us mortals, it puts a hard to grasp spin on divorce, so much so, the disciples said...'' His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is not good to marry.” Matthew 19:10.

The Church is called the Bride of Christ, and when the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs, there will not be a divorce. A blessed assurance from God.
OnTheFly is offline  
post #123 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 04:16 PM
Not
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 901
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDudeLebowski View Post
Alright well here's my thing, ready? I rejected any notion of God pretty much my entire life. The one thing I couldn't get past is a feeling of having an eternal soul. 3 years ago I would tell you I'm atheist because I didn't believe at all in any idea of God. But I've always believed in a soul. Couldn't ever shake it no matter how hard I tried, and I tried for 15+ years to reject everything. So I guess technically I was never atheist, more agnostic I guess.

What I have found is nobody wants to go there with me. From either side. I ask questions and want to learn. The only conclusion I come to over and over from anyone who will talk to me is I'm a freaking idiot. Of course, they are much more kind and just bite their tongues and say things gently or just smile and say nothing. Freaking enlighten me! I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone! I can't understand why nobody wants to help me here. I really cant. I've been suicidal as long as I can remember and the ONLY people who will ever even consider entertaining me are a bunch of stoners and drug users and **** and it's like nobody cares how lost someone is except other lost souls.

So **** it I guess. Yall take care.
This! In my opinion, you've hit on an essential truth dude. No one knows! That is just huge. I remember when I realized that I would never find the truth because no one knew it, it was both liberating but so damn frustrating because if no one knows why are we looking for it and where does the need to know come from? We don't know what we're looking for lol!

IMO, the answer does not lay in religion or the idea of a traditional god. If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient we cannot know that because in order to know we have to literally have the ability to sense/see it but if we have that ability that then makes the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient an object TO US so what does that make us? So of course that's impossible because that would place us at a level higher than it!

Have fun with this dude. It's all very fascinating and pushes one to really stretch the mind to it's limits.

(I know you're not here right now but I hope you see this if you return)
Not is offline  
 
post #124 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 06:58 PM
Member
 
cp3o's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 615
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not View Post
This! In my opinion, you've hit on an essential truth dude. No one knows! That is just huge. I remember when I realized that I would never find the truth because no one knew it, it was both liberating but so damn frustrating because if no one knows why are we looking for it and where does the need to know come from? We don't know what we're looking for lol!

IMO, the answer does not lay in religion or the idea of a traditional god. If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient we cannot know that because in order to know we have to literally have the ability to sense/see it but if we have that ability that then makes the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient an object TO US so what does that make us? So of course that's impossible because that would place us at a level higher than it!

Have fun with this dude. It's all very fascinating and pushes one to really stretch the mind to it's limits.

(I know you're not here right now but I hope you see this if you return)
No-one knows is the key. I'm aware that many think they know but the simple fact that they tend to "know" something different (major or minor) to the next believer means that even if one of them has it right that is not knowledge - just luck.

We don't have certainty - but we do have reason, logic, and the ability to use them. Hence the scientific method. ISTM that they lead to a single conclusion. Since there is no valid evidence, no rational argument and no clear need for the supernatural the sensible way to live one's life is to assume that it either doesn't exist or is irrelevant.

I can't help the Dude - the reality of life beyond my mortal demise is unknowable - but also, IMO, the concept is rather weird and rationally abhorrent. Whatever the context - why does anyone want to live for ever? I understand the attraction of escaping a terrible life for something better - but most of us haven't had/won't have terrible lives. There will always be those trying to make us think we are hard-done-by but they do so for their own (temporal) reasons not for us.

I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. Richard P. Feynman
cp3o is online now  
post #125 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 08:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: .
Posts: 1,572
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFly View Post
Sing it with me.....''for the Bible tells me so''.

Genesis 2:24

Matthew 19:3-6
No, I don't sing that song, but knock yourself out. Suffice it to say I don't believe it.

Moving to something where we don't have to share a religion, I think the difference btw marriage and two moonstruck
adolescents who decide to go steady is that the latter can change their minds at any time with no strings attached, whereas
the married couple has contractual obligations. But if there is no government, who enforces those obligations? No
enforceable obligations equals no marriage, so I don't see how marriage CAN predate government.

Quote:
Marriage was a creation ordinance and is between a man and a woman and God.
Again we disagree.
Quote:
Governments have no business in marriage.
That is your opinion and you're free to limit your participation accordingly. To some of us that is silly, and government's involvement
in marriage is the important part.
SpinyNorman is offline  
post #126 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 08:18 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: .
Posts: 1,572
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanHub View Post
Are you truly unaware that marriage predates all current governments?
No. Your statement is different from what we were talking about.

I was questioning the statement that marriage predates government, not just the batch of governments that are currently in power.
SpinyNorman is offline  
post #127 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 09:21 PM
Member
 
OnTheFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,781
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyNorman View Post
Suffice it to say I don't believe it.
Stunning and Brave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyNorman View Post
Again we disagree.
Again, I'm in awe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyNorman View Post
To some of us that is silly, and government's involvement
in marriage is the important part.
Not surprising. For the Godless the state becomes god.

Same way science becomes god for the Godless. Darwinism, a stupid idea for stupid people.
OnTheFly is offline  
post #128 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 09:30 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: .
Posts: 1,572
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFly View Post
Stunning and Brave.

Again, I'm in awe.
I was just pointing out where we disagree, but since you seem prone to worshipping, I guess I don't object.
Quote:
Not surprising. For the Godless the state becomes god.
The fact that the state does something important doesn't make it god, at least not to me. Are there important institutions in your life that don't rise to the supernatural? If so, you can probably understand.
Quote:
Same way science becomes god for the Godless.
If you're using god singular, how do two things fill this role?
Quote:
Darwinism, a stupid idea for stupid people.
If thinking everyone who believes in evolution is stupid makes you feel better, I'm not mean enough to take it away.
SpinyNorman is offline  
post #129 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 09:35 PM
Member
 
OnTheFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,781
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyNorman View Post
If thinking everyone who believes in evolution is stupid makes you feel better, I'm not mean enough to take it away.
Forget about my feelings, you have to admit, it really is a truly stupid idea. Something from nothing?? Even a child knows that's the ravings of an ill man.
OnTheFly is offline  
post #130 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 09:40 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: .
Posts: 1,572
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFly View Post
Forget about my feelings, you have to admit, it really is a truly stupid idea. Something from nothing?? Even a child knows that's the ravings of an ill man.
I don't think this characterizes Darwinism.

SpinyNorman is offline  
post #131 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 09:42 PM
Member
 
OnTheFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,781
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyNorman View Post
I don't think this characterizes Darwinism.
Well, of course you would say that. Who wants to be associated with that nonsense.
OnTheFly is offline  
post #132 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 08:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: .
Posts: 1,572
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFly View Post
Well, of course you would say that. Who wants to be associated with that nonsense.
Of course I believe in Darwinism, I just don't think "something from nothing" characterizes it.
SpinyNorman is offline  
post #133 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 10:07 PM
Member
 
cp3o's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 615
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFly View Post
Darwinism, a stupid idea for stupid people.
Quote:
Forget about my feelings, you have to admit, it really is a truly stupid idea. Something from nothing?? Even a child knows that's the ravings of an ill man..
An intelligent, educated child would disagree with you. "Something from nothing" - A made up irrelevance - no-one who understands the concept of "Darwinism" could think it had anything to do with "something from nothing".

"Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809–1882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce."

We can all make up a concept and rubbish it - that doesn't mean that anyone claims the concept is valid. You might wish to look up "Straw Man Argument".

Darwin (and Wallace) demonstrated the rational explanation for that which had been known for generations - that animals adapt to maximise the reproductive return on their environment.

The Scientific Theory of Evolution fits the evidence. You can refuse to accept the validity of the evidence if you wish - the rational consequence of doing so is the belief that the evidence has been faked. If you believe in an omnipotent god that means that your god is deceitful - either by commission or omission.

(And whilst I'm about it - something from nothing has zero to do with "Darwinism". "Evolution" describes only what happened after the first life occurred. If you wish to learn about the origin of life look up "Abiogenesis" If you wish to learn about the origin of the Universe look up "the rapid expansion of a singularity" - often referred to as "The Big Bang").

I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. Richard P. Feynman
cp3o is online now  
post #134 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-12-2019, 10:19 AM
Member
 
OnTheFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,781
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cp3o View Post
An intelligent, educated child would disagree with you. "Something from nothing" - A made up irrelevance - no-one who understands the concept of "Darwinism" could think it had anything to do with "something from nothing".

"Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809–1882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce."

We can all make up a concept and rubbish it - that doesn't mean that anyone claims the concept is valid. You might wish to look up "Straw Man Argument".

Darwin (and Wallace) demonstrated the rational explanation for that which had been known for generations - that animals adapt to maximise the reproductive return on their environment.

The Scientific Theory of Evolution fits the evidence. You can refuse to accept the validity of the evidence if you wish - the rational consequence of doing so is the belief that the evidence has been faked. If you believe in an omnipotent god that means that your god is deceitful - either by commission or omission.

(And whilst I'm about it - something from nothing has zero to do with "Darwinism". "Evolution" describes only what happened after the first life occurred. If you wish to learn about the origin of life look up "Abiogenesis" If you wish to learn about the origin of the Universe look up "the rapid expansion of a singularity" - often referred to as "The Big Bang").
Instead of writing all that ^^^^, just say, ''because I don't believe in God, I'm forced to believe this nonsense''

I'd respect it more, and it would be honest.
OnTheFly is offline  
post #135 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-12-2019, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: California
Posts: 3,427
Re: Religion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cp3o View Post
An intelligent, educated child would disagree with you. "Something from nothing" - A made up irrelevance - no-one who understands the concept of "Darwinism" could think it had anything to do with "something from nothing".

"Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809–1882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce."

We can all make up a concept and rubbish it - that doesn't mean that anyone claims the concept is valid. You might wish to look up "Straw Man Argument".

Darwin (and Wallace) demonstrated the rational explanation for that which had been known for generations - that animals adapt to maximise the reproductive return on their environment.

The Scientific Theory of Evolution fits the evidence. You can refuse to accept the validity of the evidence if you wish - the rational consequence of doing so is the belief that the evidence has been faked. If you believe in an omnipotent god that means that your god is deceitful - either by commission or omission.

(And whilst I'm about it - something from nothing has zero to do with "Darwinism". "Evolution" describes only what happened after the first life occurred. If you wish to learn about the origin of life look up "Abiogenesis" If you wish to learn about the origin of the Universe look up "the rapid expansion of a singularity" - often referred to as "The Big Bang").
Evolution is clearly true.

For myself, I think much comes down to how we see the Bible. If I were to have to try and impart wisdom worthy of being preserved through the millenia, I probably would not bother with geology, history and gossip. I hope it would be possible to communicate the very nature of our existance and experience of life and its meaning. Taking Genesis as meta-physical means it teaches wonderful truths about our reality, taking it as material and a lesson in geology and biology seems to dismiss the deep truthful stuff.

It is worth remembering that the major Christian religions all accept evolution, but those who hate deeper meaning will not be able to accept evolution. The important thing for me is what it brings them, and I am not entirely sure of its worth, but then we are all wrong.
Mr The Other is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome