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post #31 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-11-2016, 07:58 PM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

^^ The formerly religious make better skeptics than us "always have beens".

They see how ludicrous it all is, having lived through it.

@SimplyAmorous

Welcome to the non believers club.

I hope you've got good moral character because fear of HELL isn't going to stop you now.

You're also going to have your entire Sunday free, you don't even have to get all dressed to sit there and listen to a bunch of meaningless crap, and let me tell you that's a really good thing.

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post #32 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-11-2016, 08:18 PM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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^^ The formerly religious make better skeptics than us "always have beens".

They see how ludicrous it all is, having lived through it.

@SimplyAmorous

Welcome to the non believers club.

I hope you've got good moral character because fear of HELL isn't going to stop you now.

You're also going to have your entire Sunday free, you don't even have to get all dressed to sit there and listen to a bunch of meaningless crap, and let me tell you that's a really good thing.
I actually miss the fellowship of going to church.. I was kinda known for stirring up the Bible studies with all the difficult questions ...my Pastor told me many years ago I was "too cerebral".. .funny looking back ..

I consider myself a Deist .. copying & pasting an old post...to how I got here....

Quote:
: Oh a fellow Deist

Sorry long post ...as I have evolved......

Growing up my Mom dragged me to a variety of Christian churches ...Methodist, Baptist, Undenominational ...before age 10... I say dragged because I really didn't care for it very much, I was bored...

In my teens, I went to a Youth Group with a friend, I DID enjoy this.. made friends, had sleep overs, we did things...felt a sense of acceptance there... nice people...an outlet in my more difficult teen years-living with my Step Mom... this influence surely shaped me in some ways...

After we married.. wanted to find a Church home....ran into an old friend -he told me about this Undemoninational church- to check it out... the 1st day ...The Pastor talked about being healed of hemorrhoids and Pornography...he was full of energy, and darn funny...

I remember thinking "Darn.. this church will talk about anything - your A$$ & sex at the same time!" - that was COOL.. plus the music sounded like a Rock Concert... it was exciting...I loved it... went like 3 times a week for a time...dragging my husband along with me...

After a time of this place though...I began to see their so called corner of belief...and it was not the same as some of the ideas I originally held, like their interpretation of JOB... it was eye opening.. things were really warring against my mind... I was always a bit of a Doubting Thomas anyway...

Yet I enjoyed my christian friends... so I teetered going to church while I always questioned...and would even argue a different interpretation, or my reasoning...I liked throwing in the hard questions at the Bible studies...

Got the Internet...now the information highway at my finger tips, I used to visit christian forums & found myself engaging in near debates with some of their views, even got thrown off a couple (too contentious).....I learned early on.. Christians can be all over the map in interpretations too... how can any of us think we have the corner of truth... seemed so egotistical to me.

I've always enjoyed hearing the critics side to any issue....Religion is no different...started reading about Church history, doctrines and came to realize I had more in common with the Heretics of old ....

Came to greatly admire the men who fought against the tyranny within the church...and out of this a Deist philosophy was born...(was always there in our conscience I believe).....I found more LOVE and REASON within this ...over a strict black & white adherence to scripture....

That's where I am... Deists still sit in the church pew today.... they just lay low.. Me , I am pretty upfront about it.. I've been told they'll put me on the Prayer list... yet not too many has dusted off their feet.. they still seem to embrace me..



In a nut shell...these are my feelings >> "To me, it matters not what anyone believes, because if their belief makes/helps/uplifts them to be that better person/that good example to mankind & more helpful to society as a whole in this crazy selfish world, then I say .... "Live and let be", cause I think we all have MORE in common than NOT in common if we could just look beyond our "Creeds"
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post #33 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-11-2016, 09:57 PM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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This is one of the reasons I can no longer call myself a christian..

I simply can not wrap my brain around this idea that God created us... and what he did was perfect.. it was "GOOD"... but we are incapable of being "good enough".. so he had to kill his own son to accept his own [email protected]#.. (Masochistic anyone?) does this not sound terribly twisted...

Meanwhile...he would send people who have done good, been kind to their fellow man, have lived uprightly not hurting anyone.. to an everlasting torment.. Over what..

Questing if Jesus was born of a virgin or he resurrected.. that's insane ! None of us were there.. yet we're supposed to blindly believe what we are taught.. like all the other warped religions around the world.. we laugh at them.. yet think we have the corner of truth..

My God given conscious (and I consider myself a pretty sensitive person who wants to do GOOD & very much appreciates decent kind people, I am drawn to honestly, sincerity of heart )... yet I feel there is very little "justice" in the way some christians have presented this so called Gospel.. maybe they have it all wrong, or at least the segment that I reject... Since there are many brands of Christianity..

Personally I believe Pelagius was Right...he was St Augustine's Rival.. religion was like politics back then ... and St Augustine won the debate.. and the "Original sin doctrine" was born and pushed.. leading to the sinners prayer and all that ...I always had issues with some of this.. once I learned where this divide came about. I realized just how much of a heretic I really am.. at least according to church doctrine.. . Far too much "greasy Grace" for me.

I have an awful time believing some da** serial killer , like Ted Bundy, can utter a prayer and "Oh he's accepted" into the divine.. while a good Buddhist over here, or one of my Mormon friends who would give the shirt off their backs to us... will be damned cause they were taught the wrong religion.. and was foolish enough to believe it, when all this Jesus talk was presented to him.

The idea that good people burn in everlasting torment (and send themselves there) by not saying a silly prayer is absurd to me..

I can not reason any justice or common sense in this.. what I see is a convenient scape-goat.. where people want to believe -they are suddenly as "white as snow".. yeah right..

Honesty I think that's the real lie.. I am more of a Ecclesiastes type believer.. it just sounds more reasonable to me.. God must be a reasonable being..

In the beginning it was good until man disobeyed God. God gave us free will and man chose to disobey God. I choose to follow Christ, and you can choose to do whatever. We all live and die with the choices we make.
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post #34 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-11-2016, 10:48 PM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

Great topic!
Do I believe in Hell? Hell yeah! LOL! I do!

People say, "How can God send good people to hell?" The Bible says nobody is good. Not one single person!

Romans 3:12

"All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Matthew 11

"11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Psalm 14:1King James Version (KJV)

"14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

I think there will be different levels of torment in hell for people, but just the thought of forever being apart from God and others we loved on earth will be torment enough. No early release, No parole...Just an endless time of forever in darkness, heat, and embarrassing nakedness.

Matthew 22

11But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’

But the man was speechless.

13Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14For many are called, but few are chosen.”

It will be an unbelievable reality that they are in hell forever...No sleep, just anxiety, anger, sadness, pain, guilt, remorse, in darkness...forever, and ever...

However, there is an escape!

"John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

Romans 10:9-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [b]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [c]resulting in salvation.
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post #35 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 01:39 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

Forced to love out of fear?

I've always believe this a power play... probably why I left the "Fire and Brimstone" of Southern Baptist faith.

Pascal's Wager

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
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post #36 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 01:45 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

It will be those who reject Jesus who will go to hell, not just who we consider to be 'bad'. He cant do more that offer up His much loved Son for us, its our choice to accept his sacrifice or not.
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post #37 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 01:45 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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Forced to love out of fear?

I've always believe this a power play... probably why I left the "Fire and Brimstone" of Southern Baptist faith.

Pascal's Wager

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
I have never been a Christian out of fear, but because if His great love.
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post #38 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 01:50 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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^^ The formerly religious make better skeptics than us "always have beens".

They see how ludicrous it all is, having lived through it.

@SimplyAmorous

Welcome to the non believers club.

I hope you've got good moral character because fear of HELL isn't going to stop you now.

You're also going to have your entire Sunday free, you don't even have to get all dressed to sit there and listen to a bunch of meaningless crap, and let me tell you that's a really good thing.
The churches I go to you dont have to get dressed up, you dont hear 'meaningless crap' and you have sundays free because you can go to an evening service so we have the best of both worlds.
Formerly 'religious' is right, its not about religion but about knowing God and His Son Jesus Christ. Heaven and hell still exist whether you believe them or not.
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post #39 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 01:54 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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Interesting concept. If there is not hell or no God, and you only live once, then why not cheat, lie, steal, cheat (yes, I mentioned cheat twice.) all that you want and just enjoy life.
Do people actually think that cheating, lying and stealing are enjoying life???I would be so miserable if I lived that way.
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post #40 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 01:56 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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People will beat the $hit out of you and you'll be thrown in jail.

Sad truth that we don't like to admit around here - some people cheat and have all kinds of fun without ever being caught or suffering any real consequences.
They will suffer bad consequences sooner or later. If that is what they call fun then they have a sad life.

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post #41 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 02:57 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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I have never been a Christian out of fear, but because if His great love.
Interesting...

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
It will be those who reject Jesus who will go to hell, not just who we consider to be 'bad'. He cant do more that offer up His much loved Son for us, its our choice to accept his sacrifice or not.
Yet, what you say here affirms what @Emerging Buddhist was stating in his post.
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post #42 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 03:13 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

I don't know if I believe in hell or not. But my understanding of it is that you are disconnected from God. I'm not sure if that is just or not for a murderer, rapist, pedophile, etc.

If hell is endless torture, then no I don't think that would be right.

I just think that given human weaknesses, and the fact that some people are abused as children, some have mentall illness, etc. I can't see God torturing a soul for eternity based on decisions it made in human form with it's limited time and resources here on earth.

Of course I've never been personally touched by such horrors, if I had a loved one murdered, molested, etc. I might feel differently.

But "eternity" seems kind of pointless. Isn't God supposed to love us and want us to get better and better? So why would he torture someone for eternity? And what about the evil people who die young who would have turned their lives around and repented had they had more time on earth? Why would a "just" God torture them or turn his back on them for eternity?


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Obviously not everyone here is religious or believes in hell. But for the sake of argument let's say hell does indeed exist where for eternal damnation and eternal suffering exists for those horrible people, do you think some people can be so bad they deserve it?

In my mind in particular I am thinking of rapists, pedophiles, serial killers. If you knew those people, when they died would be subjected to an eternity of ever lasting pain and suffering that would never end, would you consider it justified?
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post #43 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 05:06 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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Having recently had some unsettling medical procedures (needles, being scanned by machinery ), it's weird how I suddenly think about how I hope everyone gets to go to heaven in the end.

I am christian, but it's my own collage of beliefs and ideas. I don't attend a service anywhere anymore. That doesn't make me happy, but I just don't fit in.

Hitler, Stalin, Mengele et al. I think maybe there is a purgatory of sorts. Just from things I've read.

I hope everyone here gets to heaven in the end. I suppose each soul has to find their own way.

I've really had problems with believing in prayer. I had this one personal desire. It was/is VERY important to me. It doesn't involve anything which could be called "selfish" or "worldly", it is very emotionally important to me. It involves my identity as a person.

^^ I said all that to try to emphasize that it's not some trivial, materially greedy thing. Nor is it getting revenge on anyone, or anything like that.

I prayed formally over it for about a year. Not every day, but close. Everytime I said the prayer, I wrote it in a journal. I noted the day and the details. I did this prayer journal entry 84 times during that time. Mind you, that's not counting the times I've said this prayer without recording it.

Nothing, Nada. I know that's because I'm not a good enough Christian, or don't attend church services in a building. At least that's what religious people would tell me.

I don't not believe in God. But I don't think prayer is what we are taught, "if you would have faith of a mustard seed, you could say to that mountain to lift up into the sea . . . " and so forth.

I said all this about prayer to anecdotally give evidence that things don't happen the way the Bible says about prayer, so why should I believe that hell is literally true either.

And as far as God knowing in advance that we will sin; so why does he set us up to fail. Doesn't physics teach that time isn't real? It's a dimension, not ultimate reality. Eternity is a synonym for ultimate reality. God in eternity is seeing all of our existence in the little bubble we call "time", 500 years ago, now and 500 years in the future are all the same from the perspective of eternity. That's how God knows whose going to do what.

^^Sorry, I'm obviously not educated. These are my own thoughts trying to figure things out. I wish I could find a book about physics that was dumbed down enough for somebody like me. 'Cause I think that physics may be scratching at the outer surface of the nature of existence and God.

TL;DR I have to "confess", hell is always one of the most difficult things to believe in.
YOu are very wrong about what religious people would say to you regarding your answer to prayer. Not the ones I know and have know anyway. There are many reasons why God may not have given you what you have asked for. I have prayed for many things that I didnt get, but ultimately God wants the very best for us, not just for now but for our eternity. As a mother I didnt give my children everything they asked for, as their parent I knew what was right for them and what wasnt, and God is the perfect Father.

Purgatory isnt at all Biblical. Its a R Catholic man made idea.

A friend of mine prayed for nearly 40 years for her husband to come to know Jesus Christ for himself and 2 years ago he did.
A year isnt long.
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post #44 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 05:29 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

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YOu are very wrong about what religious people would say to you regarding your answer to prayer. Not the ones I know and have know anyway. There are many reasons why God may not have given you what you have asked for. I have prayed for many things that I didnt get, but ultimately God wants the very best for us, not just for now but for our eternity. As a mother I didnt give my children everything they asked for, as their parent I knew what was right for them and what wasnt, and God is the perfect Father.

Purgatory isnt at all Biblical. Its a R Catholic man made idea.

A friend of mine prayed for nearly 40 years for her husband to come to know Jesus Christ for himself and 2 years ago he did.
A year isnt long.
God truly moves in strange and mysterious ways! But whether the prayer is answered or not is inconsequential ~ because at some juncture of any Christian's life, we often have to thank Him for those prayers that He does not answer, or even takes years in getting around to!
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post #45 of 65 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 07:40 AM
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Re: How do you feel about the concept of hell and people suffering for all eternity?

Then ... so many ways to interpret the Bible also....who is to say which is correct or which parts should be interpreted THIS way.. or THAT way.. everyone has an opinion and we all think we are right..

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Literal: The Fundamentalist view

Historical Docoment

Midrash: Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"

Pesher: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)

Allegorical: Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.

Typological: seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.

Christological: Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.

Functional: Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context.
On the subject of Hell.. there are different views... I have no idea what is right or wrong.. but some will refer to Gehenna & some reference to the Valley of Hinnon, that this place Jesus referred to was perpetually an ongoing burning trash dump that was never put out... how to interpret what he meant.. do we really know ??

@Diana7 said
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The churches I go to you dont have to get dressed up, you dont hear 'meaningless crap' and you have sundays free because you can go to an evening service so we have the best of both worlds.
the Church I went to was the same.. they were not stuffy like that.. Obviously if anyone judged us on how we dressed over our heart.. come on.. obviously they are more about Money, appearances, an outward show... completely against the Parables..

I love the Parables.. I love MANY THINGS in the Bible, I try to live by them even... Proverbs and Ecclesiastics are my favorite books......I've probably put more scripture references on this forum over any other poster even.. and most of our friends ARE Christians....

I am BIG on -when we screw up, hurt someone- going to your brother , leaving our gift at the alter and doing the HARD thing...showing genuine remorse... Where is that scripture? .. somehow I don't think that one is spoken of often enough in the church pew.

I've seen far too many believers NOT do this.. and think.. "Oh I'm forgiven by the blood"...then live any old way they want, continuing to hurt others around them... One's conscience can be seared if we aren't careful, and that's Biblical too....

And sobering is the scripture where it says many will come & say "LORD LORD' and he'll say "I never knew you"... Come on.. how is any of us supposed to judge that.. HE is the judge.. of what is in our hearts.. does it all live or die over a "confession".. that's far too simple..

The difference I share is that I can not Say with 100% sincerity that Jesus was "the son of God.. maybe he was a gifted Teacher that was meant to inspire the world ..I mean.. maybe some of you have had a spiritual experience.. but I can't say I have.. I've had many prayers answered in my life... it's just I am open to the various views... I can't say one way or the other.

For instance... opposing Views were very evident from various followers of Jesus , so evident, 300 yrs after Jesus death -- about his Being born of a Virgin, After Constantine ....The council of Nicea in 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," and " the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God."

Now if I deserve HELL fire and to burn in every lasting torment over this difference., as with all those outside of this belief.... I find it Cruel.. heartless, almost evil... .. I even think it cancels out many Proverbs & other scriptures that resonate with why I feel this way...like helping people in need.. making the world a better place for all to live in.. are those meaningless....
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