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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Educational differences

Having touched upon subject of education in another thread it seems few, now, outside certain rare circles, seem to understand difference between a school of learning and school of education. Thought I would share at least one short paper for those who may be curious.

One statement highlights what others have called, basically preposterous, in another discussion, namely being one must be able to see interconnections between all subjects rather than focusing on one.
Quote:
Do you often come across people for whom, all their lives, a "subject" remains a "subject," divided by watertight bulkheads from all other "subjects," so that they experience very great difficulty in making an immediate mental connection between let us say, algebra and detective fiction, sewage disposal and the price of salmon--or, more generally, between such spheres of knowledge as philosophy and economics, or chemistry and art?
Education was once teaching the skills so one could learn on their own without the need for a teacher/educator.

The Lost tools of Learning

Notice use of the word learning.
Another complication with modern system; I have bemoaned often; the prolongation of immaturity, and formation of dependency which 12 years of primary schooling enforces, creating mental hardships on those attending, and financial upon the parents.
Primary education which now is taking 13 years can be done in 5 years.

The greatest minds, producing the greatest discoveries, were mostly educated in the trivium and quadrivium.
Refer to the 1643 Harvard graduation requirements.
Interesting one of the requirements was Nature of Plants.

Link posted is only one of many which highlights the differences, and alludes to the unhappiness of the author, from those with which she has interacted, being unable to free themselves from influencing agent of propaganda and advertising pitches, which result from the fact they were schooled instead of being educated to learn.



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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Educational differences

A side note.

Paying for college education is a scam of massive proportions.

Many years ago, i discovered one can take certain tests at colleges, prices ranging from $200-400, once passed they must give you college credit regardless of whether you attended the college or studied and learned on your own.

I learned of it through a chemist with whom I once regularly conversed. He had achieved a masters and only had to enroll into and attend lab classes. All others he self studied and tested out of.
Through him I learned of others doing the same.

Unless they have changed in the last 7 years it still stands.
Itís harder to find now and colleges were trying to balk on it then. Attempting to lock it down so you had to attend.

For those interested here are a few to consider.
Disclaimer: I researched it many years ago and know it was valid then but it had to be a test the college would accept. The links below are only for research purposes.
Most are new ones so pursue due diligence.
When I looked years back all colleges taking state and federal funding were required to accept the tests. From a precursory look seems all may not be as accepting now.

https://clep.collegeboard.org/

https://www.fastcompany.com/1771006/...-college-class

ETA: would have been 12 years ago i researches not 7.


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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays

Last edited by red oak; 01-11-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 01:42 PM
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Re: Educational differences

What a coincidence! Yesterday my daughter and I listened to her history lectures that were exactly about your post. (20 Calling and Guilds, and 22 A Future Orientation), from this curriculum: http://gileskirk.com/PDF/CHR2006.pdf

which can be purchased at:
Product Categories Curriculum | King's Meadow Study Center

The Trivium and Quadrivium were actually developed over centuries before and during the Medieval ages. They are the basis of a Liberal Arts education, and a well rounded "Education" not just on dates and dead people but to develop a proper worldview.

Now education is stuffing in details and head knowledge, with no understanding of the whole purpose of knowledge, and what knowledge is. It evolved over time from Aristotle, Plato, Augustine of Hippo and later people. It was centered on Beauty, Goodness and Truth, from the time of Augustine and the later thinkers (whose worldviews were rooted in Monasticism and founded on the Bible.)

Modern history and education chooses to leave out regular people, who made deep contributions and changes, and focuses on famous, powerful people, wars, etc. It is selective and schizophrenic.
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 03:32 PM
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Re: Educational differences

Three books come to mind.....

CS Lewis "Abolition of Man
Orwell's "1984"
Huxley's "Brave New World"

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Educational differences

Not long ago I was reading of a man who was top of his class in high school, and decided to read some works of Hutchins Adler, Plato, Aquinas, and Descartes.

His self-esteem was crushed for he couldn’t comprehend what he read. In his words, even at the top of his class, “he was to smart to play dumb, and too dumb to play smart.” It took him 10 years to recover and apply himself to learning grammar so he could understand them.

Brings back a memory of an old school teacher who also owned a truck shop noticing me reading works of Descartes in lobby while waiting on them to finish my truck. He asked to see my old copy, for he found it hard to believe a “simple” driver could read and understand. Later told me he used it as an example in his class in effort to inspire his students if they complained how hard something was. Basically shaming them to try harder.

We ended up having some interesting discussions.

I know there are well meaning teachers, yet they are also a products of the same institution; products being the appropo word in full context.

Relating well to Dorothy Sayers paper above where she observes the ability of advertising and propaganda to influence as result of modern education leaving people to be ill prepared to think critically and logically.

Isn’t it time we started asking questions?

When school rooms were a one room affair the older students helped teach the younger. Teaching others reinforces what was learned ensuring one knows the material.
Why age segregation?
What effect does it have on society as a whole?
Much like social distinctions, how has it limited the younger students?
What types of social skills has it impeded developing?


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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays

Last edited by red oak; 01-11-2020 at 07:01 PM.
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 07:28 PM
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Re: Educational differences

IMO itís parents jobs to be teaching their kids life skills. Itís the education system that has to give students the basics to be well rounded and lay the ground work for them to choose paths, whether that be advancing their education in a specific field or not.
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 07:32 PM
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Re: Educational differences

It also depends on what you want to do. Have you ever read outliers?
Great philosophers use to sit around and ponder deep questions for hours. Writers use to lock themselves away and write for hours. Artists and musicians the same. Inventors... the same. You want to be good at something? You need to go home and do it for hours and hours.

You know what the difference is between many successful people and those who arenít? They do the work when no one is looking. They work even when they arenít motivated.

Itís hard to feel that kind of motivation when your lazy, comfortable, and you have everything you need.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 07:36 PM
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Re: Educational differences

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ackle-learning


Hereís a very good 8 min talk about the difference between eastern and western cultures and how they learn.

We are praising our kids for the wrong reasons. (And making more narcissists but thatís a different topic). We need to praise effort more.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 08:02 PM
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Re: Educational differences

I believe what red oak is talking about is that education used to be about formally teaching basics, with the end goal of teaching children to think and how to educate themselves for their entire life.

If I'm wrong here, @red oak, let me know.

Regarding your link to CLEP tests, they usually only cover the first year and part of a 2nd of a 4 year degree, or mainly 100 level courses. For your upper level courses, you have to actually take them through a university, whether online or on campus.

The CLEP route is an excellent choice for the first year or two. They only cost about $100 (test fee and sitting/supervisory fee combined) for a 3 credit course. A person can even keep a full time job while taking these. CLEP courses are easier than sitting in the classroom, and this is especially appealing for courses that aren't in your area of interest. The tests are pass/fail and the study booklets are tiny, compared to a college text book. Plus you don't have to listen to a long-winded, or brainwashing/agenda driven prof.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Educational differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelais View Post
I believe what red oak is talking about is that education used to be about formally teaching basics, with the end goal of teaching children to think and how to educate themselves for their entire life.

If I'm wrong here, @red oak, let me know.

Regarding your link to CLEP tests, they usually only cover the first year and part of a 2nd of a 4 year degree, or mainly 100 level courses. For your upper level courses, you have to actually take them through a university, whether online or on campus.

The CLEP route is an excellent choice for the first year or two. They only cost about $100 (test fee and sitting/supervisory fee combined) for a 3 credit course. A person can even keep a full time job while taking these. CLEP courses are easier than sitting in the classroom, and this is especially appealing for courses that aren't in your area of interest. The tests are pass/fail and the study booklets are tiny, compared to a college text book. Plus you don't have to listen to a long-winded, or brainwashing/agenda driven prof.
You understood correctly.

Been a long time since I looked at the testing mentioned.
One I know personally only had to attend for lab, yet got masters degree from UCLA if memory serves accurately.

Anyone who looks in to testing out needs to check thoroughly.

I did a precursory search trying to find the tests all, but private colleges must give credit for, with no success did find out most colleges will admittedly allow testing out of at least 9 credit hours in mathematics.
I probably wouldn't have found it before if it hadn't been for my friend.
Did find an old website of another who did the same to get masters, with links to several college websites which should have been discussing test requirements, however content was removed from the servers of all them except Thomas Jefferson university.
Any amount a person can test out of saves on the pocket book.
A start for some perhaps:
https://www.acenet.edu/Programs-Serv...-Learning.aspx

Hopefully someone can get some benefit out of them.



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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 09:50 PM
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Re: Educational differences

I'm highly autodidactic.

When I was in school, I felt dumb, because I didn't learn the way everyone else did, and it was embarrassing.

I was still on track with the other college prep students, and I made As and Bs and was on the honor roll, but I wasn't learning. I just did what I had to do to pass a class.

As an adult, I'm always teaching myself something, because I find everything interesting.

Right now, it's physics - quantum theory and optics.

I'm learning at my own pace, which is super slow. But over time and with repetition, I'm catching on. I'll probably never learn the math, but the parts I'm able to understand, I truly enjoy.
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Educational differences

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Originally Posted by Girl_power View Post
IMO itís parents jobs to be teaching their kids life skills. Itís the education system that has to give students the basics to be well rounded and lay the ground work for them to choose paths, whether that be advancing their education in a specific field or not.
Quote:
ďThe crime lies in the fact that the educational system exerts its malevolent influence upon the plastic mind of youth. Upon the helpless child before it is able to protect itself. It is difficult to state in temperate language the terrible wrong the school system thus perpetrates upon helpless, innocent childhood.Ē

ďWith the mailed fist of authority, a cut-and-dried system of morals, economics, religion and government is thrust down his throat. His mind and his reasoning faculties are so paralyzed that he does not attempt to think. Not one in a million, I believe, of the human family today is capable of using his brains. The power to think has almost disappeared from among us. A man must pay the price of independent thought almost with his life.Ē

ďProm the Superintendent of Schools in a large Pennsylvania city; 20 years in the business. Cannot stand it any longer.

"After having spent 20 years in high schools teaching or supervising, I am now about to leave the work. I have not been able to see how a man can do good and be a part of this system. It may be cowardly, but I cannot endure it longer. I prefer now to let someone else take my work and continue the abominable business. I think you will be glad to know that you do not stand alone on the school question. All you say of the system is true, and it is even worse than you charge.Ē

Excerpt From
Rational Education, the Keynote of the Rational School ...
Bruce T. Calvert 1911 Harvard University


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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 11:27 PM
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Re: Educational differences

@red oak , the modern education system is not going to change. They are following the twisted philosophy laid out by Jean Jacques Rousseau, the father of modern education, who abandoned his own 5 newborn children at the foundling hospital, which in the 1700's meant certain death. Voltaire had a field day with that.
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-12-2020, 01:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Educational differences

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Originally Posted by Adelais View Post
@red oak , the modern education system is not going to change. They are following the twisted philosophy laid out by Jean Jacques Rousseau, the father of modern education, who abandoned his own 5 newborn children at the foundling hospital, which in the 1700's meant certain death. Voltaire had a field day with that.
True on the system not going to change.
Sadly neither will society as long as public education is the main trainer.

I have seen Jean-Jacques referred to as the father of modern education theory. Interesting.

Article II of John Dewey's Pedagogical creed, does show similarities.

Makes one wonder how much each of them were influenced by John Amos Comenius.

Although I haven't read Emile I am almost curious enough to do so based on Lenins statement' "Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever," and John Deweys article 5 of his creed mentioned above, where he states; "through education society can formulate its own purposes, can organize its own means and resources, and thus shape itself with definiteness and economy in the direction in which it wishes to move."
We all know those supplying the funds are the ones who will influence where it goes. When one adapts someone through schooling to social service I wonder how many ever stop to ask: when he alludes to being able to change the direction of society in one generation through public education: what it truly means, and apply it to the changes we have seen?

Also considering Jean-Jacques was supposed to have influenced Marx, yet many of Marx's writings have seemed to be more along the lines of noticing effects, which many in power have used to sublimate energy of the populous to achieve their own ends.

I better stop or I will be typing all night.


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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-12-2020, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Educational differences

Another aspect of the system detrimental to learning is age segregation which inhibits social development, maturity and ability to learn.

A couple articles on it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ren-age-part-i

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ge-part-ii?amp


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The only difference between 'propaganda' and 'education,' really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don't believe in is propaganda.-Edward Bernays
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