Recreational Companionship

sarcasmo · Apr 18, 2013

OK, so this probably belongs in one of the other sections, but I though the topic could be more universally helpful.

My situation. I guess you could say my WS and I are in Plan A of the Marriage Builders (MB) approach. We are halfway through a 3 month [in-home] separation, and I'm still trying to "convince" her to leave the OM so we can work on R. Thanks to therapy and self help, I'm getting closer to accepting the reality of Plan B if we are still here in 6 weeks. I'm getting stronger and I will walk out if my needs aren't met. I'm working on me, reading NMMNG and a procrastination self help book to overcome my general fear of life. In addition I have a therapist I see weekly. I feel like I'm doing everything I can and while I don't want to leave, I may have no choice.

Anyway, with that out of the way, here is my question. I was reading some of the articles on MB today and ran into the list of emotional needs and I had questions regarding their Recreational Companionship concepts (see links). Some things really resonated with me, but I'm wondering if the concept is a little out there. Should people have some time to themselves or with friends?

Link 1, Link 2, Link 3

These days, my WS is spending a lot of time away from the house. Ignoring the time with the OM, she needs this to 1) deal with the daily stressors of being a SAHM (read: get away from the 3 kids), and 2) to feel fullfilled (my interpretation). I fully support have a GNO or going to Starbucks for some peace, but the MB site seems to indicate we should be doing these things together. Is this a bit radical? Maybe I'm too black and white?

One quote that really stuck out,

"He does not take you with him when he wants to relax. As a result, you are no longer being associated with his most enjoyable moments. Instead, he is associating you with the responsibility that he is trying to escape. He may still be in love with you, but the way things are going, that love may be at risk. "

Similarly,

"How incredibly shortsighted! It's leisure activities that got you together in the first place. Do you think you can spend your most enjoyable moments apart, yet still love each other? Don't you realize that you will love the person you have the best time with, whether it's at work or at play. If your best moments are not with your spouse, your marriage does not have much chance for survival. "

This really makes a lot of sense, but are we not allowed to have time out with friends? Should she not go to kickboxing? Should I not play softball? Again, I think maybe I'm just being too black and white. What do others think?

I really want to share this info with my WS, but I'm not sure I can defend the seemingly radical approach they are suggesting. Can you guys help me?

Rowan · Apr 18, 2013

If you haven't exposed your wife's ongoing affair to her family, your family, the children, the OM's wife/girlfriend, etc., then you are not in Plan A. With Plan A, there is a carrot (meeting the WS's needs) and a stick (exposure). Exposure will kill the affair, whereas trying to "nice" her out of it will simply encourage her to cake-eat. Killing the affair is the first step. You cannot move on to the others, or attempt a reconciliation, with someone engaged in an active affair. That's just asking to be abused.

Now, as to your question on RC. My understanding is that spouses may engage in all the solo/friend activities they desire - on two conditions. One, that the couple is reliably getting 15 hours of undivided attention time together each week. And two, that both spouses enthusiastically agree on the solo/friend activity. These are the concepts of UA time and POJA.

There's a lot to the MB plan, and much of it is interdependent. Don't try to use the different elements in isolation.

sarcasmo · Apr 19, 2013

Rowan said:
Now, as to your question on RC. My understanding is that spouses may engage in all the solo/friend activities they desire - on two conditions. One, that the couple is reliably getting 15 hours of undivided attention time together each week. And two, that both spouses enthusiastically agree on the solo/friend activity. These are the concepts of UA time and POJA.

There's a lot to the MB plan, and much of it is interdependent. Don't try to use the different elements in isolation.

Thank you. This makes sense. As long as there is 15 hours of UA, the rest is up to you. This helps, thanks.

BTW, I'm not taking the different elements in isolation. I had a specific question regarding one of them, that's all. I was simply looking for some clarification.

norajane · Apr 18, 2013

At this stage, it's not about giving up time with friends, or about kick-boxing or softball.

It's about her turning to her OM for companionship instead of you.

So, doing things together to reconcile and revive the relationship only works if she's isn't already doing things with her OM. Right now, she's bonding with him instead of you. THAT is what she needs to give up, not coffee at Starbucks.

None of this works if she's still seeing OM.

Faithful Wife · Apr 18, 2013

You can't work on the marriage until she goes NC with OM. Until then, you are supposed to just stay firm in your conviction that you will not enable her affair. An in-house separation DOES enable her affair.

Theseus · Apr 18, 2013

Faithful Wife said:
An in-house separation DOES enable her affair.

I agree, and was so confused over this thread that I read Sarcasmo's other thread for background. Bottom line is, his wife has a deep friendship/EA with the OM.

But I just don't understand what the purpose of this separation is. All it does it make it easier to keep having her OM and further wedge you out of the picture.

Doing things together doesn't mean just doing them out of the house. There are plenty of things you should be doing together right at home, but you can't if you are in the middle of this "in-house separation".

Coffee Amore · Apr 18, 2013

To beat a dead horse..she has to go completely NC with the OM before you can work on the marital issues. All the recreational companionship in the world isn't going to help you if she's still in contact with the OM. It seems like you're trying to take the high road and be perceived by her as the nice husband, but your efforts are for nothing until NC is firmly established. To use an analogy, the OM is pouring water into her emotional needs glass. And while you can do the same, you won't be able to get all of your water into her glass because it's already partly full with the water that HE (OM) is putting into it.

Toffer · Apr 18, 2013

Not only are you Plan B, your also a built-in babysitter and maid

If anyone is to leave the marital home, it should be the wayward spouse

If she wants to continue to l e the single life and "date" the OM, fine but she needs to do it without support from you

Cut off her luxuries like cell phone and Internet access and everything else you can
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waiwera · Apr 18, 2013

OK... I'm not going to address your living issues... I agree with the above posters on that issue.

But with regards to the RC, a few years a go I took up fishing with my hubby. He loves loves loves to fish... me not so much...until recently.

We have both kayaked for over 20 years but I had always figured fishing would just ruin a good paddle but after reading HNHN I suggested we go fishing together.

Hubby had to teach me how to bait the hook and cast. he has bought me really nice rods, nets etc. I think he enjoys being the one who knows what to do, how to do it... and I find it a real turn on that he is so confident and capable and he is very patient with me. I suck at knot tying

We have a lot of fun and laughs and we catch several days dinner if we're lucky.

I remember one day right at the beginning of our joint fishing trips. We were on our way home...chillybin full of fish and shellfish, we were all smelly and salty and hubby said, with a huge grin on his face, " that was one of THE best days of my life".

I buzzed on those words for days. Taking up fishing was the smartest thing I've done in...forever!

So yes find a way, if you can, to have fun and to do new things together. I'm certainly not suggesting you go fishing together but I do suggest you find 'something' that could fit into your lifestyle.

I'm a firm believer in RC being beneficial to your marriage.

Hope1964 · Apr 18, 2013

sarcasmo said:
We are halfway through a 3 month [in-home] separation, and I'm still trying to "convince" her to leave the OM so we can work on R.

I got this far and just went WHOA.

If YOU are trying to convince HER to R, you are doing it wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong. You have it completely backwards.

sarcasmo · Apr 19, 2013

Since the thread took of in a direction I was hoping to avoid, allow me to clarify some points. I guess my back story was too succint and I either should have shared way more detail or tried to leave it out of the discussion entirely. Not to mention the general feeling everyone around here has for me as someone who wont play by the rules. I'm sorry I seem to be difficult at times. I know everyone believes in the proven plan, but I'm just doing what I can to best survive the situation I'm in.

NC didn't work. She resented it and broke it. I didn't set clear boundaries or consequences. I was weak. I'm getting stronger. I fear the 180 because to her I will look like the emotionally distant husband that led her into the arms of the OM in the first place.

I see that "separation" is the wrong description for where we are at. We are taking 3 months to rediscover our friendship, with sex off the table. The hope is by rekindling our friendship, we will want to move towards R. We have worked on a lot of things and are finding more time together (after the kids go to bed, sending the kids off to visit cousins, etc). We have a weekly date night as well where we get out.

She is not willing to work on our marriage yet. To me this is Plan A. Trying to get the WS to understand the pain she is causing. To decide on her own that the marriage is worth saving and take the first step toward R; disconnecting with the OM. At the end of 3 months, I will decide if I want to move into Plan B which is where I separate myself from my WS. Maybe I'm misunderstand the MB plan? Perhaps we are already stuck in the limbo of cake-eating (and I AM enabling it). I'm not sure. All I know is we have setup a timeframe and I intend to see it through. I'm using the time to get stronger so I'm in a position to move to Plan B.

I used the quotes around "convince" since that is the internationally accepted sign for sarcasm.

Really, it was sort of tongue-and-cheek. I know my job isn't to convince her. I'm done trying to control situations that are out of my control. I'm working very hard at this concept. I can only hope.

urnotme · Apr 19, 2013

I wish my husband would have wanted to spend more time with me. The times when we were spending the most time together were the best days of our relationship.

Hope1964 · Apr 19, 2013

If your wife is still in contact with the OM, YOU are plan B to her. If she truly wanted to work on the marriage, she'd be ready to chop off her left arm for you.

But you've obviously convinced yourself you can 'nice' your way out of this. Good luck with that. All you're doing is enabling your wife to keep cheating on you.

sarcasmo · Apr 19, 2013

I get what you are saying, but I'm referring to this: What are Plan A and Plan B

She doesn't want to work on the marriage. Never said she did. I know I'm enabling and after the 3 months are up, I'm out of here if we don't arrive at a mutual plan. You forget that while I'm giving her the safety to cake-eat, this time is also giving me the chance to grow and get stronger. In 6 weeks (or sooner!) I will be able to walk out confident in myself and my choice.

I've spent my whole marriage subtely manipulating through passivity. Turning a 180, exposing them, etc., to me these are all forms of manipulation as well. If I move out and cut off contact, it will be because I want to do it for me. Not because I want to do it to get her to come back to me.

Hope1964 · Apr 19, 2013

You do not understand what the 180 is if you think it's a form of manipulation.

sarcasmo · Apr 19, 2013

Maybe so. Rereading it now. Maybe I can do it.

Faithful Wife · Apr 19, 2013

"I've spent my whole marriage subtely manipulating through passivity"

Separately from the 180 topic, this is a very enlightened and self-aware thing to say. It will be important going forward (with her or without her) to understand this in yourself and see how it is actually a cruel way to communicate (the cruelty is not obvious, but both partners feel it).

Whatever your wife's contributions to the marriage problems were or are, your contributions are the only ones you need to clearly understand at this time.

Toffer · Apr 19, 2013

Sarcasmo,

What folks are trying to tell you here is that in order to even have a chance at a reconciliation with your wife, you have to risk losing it all by exposing her and the OM to family and friends. Have hard evidence so she can't refute it and make it look like you're blowing smoke up everyon'e azz

Right now you're making it so EASY for her to continue BANGING ANOTHER MAN!

It's time to tell her that she needs to make a decision. You or him. Fromwhat you write here, she will probably choose him. In that case, SHE leaves the marital home, NOT YOU! She's the one who broke her vows. She's the one having sex outside of the marriage. She's the one who has been lying and manipulating YOU. What do you think would have happened to you if the roles were reversed?

Please do some reading in the CWI section here. I think it's pretty safe to say that not ONE marriage that survived an affair was repaired using your approach.

Look, she wants to be single again for whatever reason. SHOW HER what it's like. Cut off all financial support you may give her. Cell phone account in your name? Cancel her line. You make her car payment? Tell her it's HER responsibility. Joint credit cards? Cancel them or at least remove your name (Canceling is better for your protection financially). Money in Joint accounts? Take half of it and put it into accounts that only have YOUR name on it! Be sure that if your paycheck is deposited to a joint account you change that too to one of the accounts only you control.

My God man, the woman has practically cuckholded you! She doesn't respect you at all! Be a MAN! FILE on her and tell her it's time for her to leave the MARITAL home! It's time to Alpha up and grow a pair!

Coffee Amore · Apr 19, 2013

sarcasmo said:
Anyway, with that out of the way, here is my question. I was reading some of the articles on MB today and ran into the list of emotional needs and I had questions regarding their Recreational Companionship concepts (see links). Some things really resonated with me, but I'm wondering if the concept is a little out there. Should people have some time to themselves or with friends?

Link 1, Link 2, Link 3

These days, my WS is spending a lot of time away from the house. Ignoring the time with the OM, she needs this to 1) deal with the daily stressors of being a SAHM (read: get away from the 3 kids), and 2) to feel fullfilled (my interpretation). I fully support have a GNO or going to Starbucks for some peace, but the MB site seems to indicate we should be doing these things together. Is this a bit radical? Maybe I'm too black and white?

One quote that really stuck out,

Similarly,

This really makes a lot of sense, but are we not allowed to have time out with friends? Should she not go to kickboxing? Should I not play softball? Again, I think maybe I'm just being too black and white. What do others think?

I really want to share this info with my WS, but I'm not sure I can defend the seemingly radical approach they are suggesting. Can you guys help me?

I've already said my piece about the NC, OM and your wife so I'll answer the original question.

I don't think you have to be joined at the hip with your spouse and do EVERYTHING with them. I know some at MB would like that approach, but that's just silly.

You should have time with friends so long as those are friends to your marriage meaning not people having affairs or flirting with married people or encouraging other bad behavior in you. If your friends aren't like that (they have good personal boundaries) then it's fine to spend some time with them.
Uninterrupted time and recreational companionship doesn't mean an absolute end of "everything" that we as individuals had previously enjoyed or found fulfilling or fun. You just have to put one another's feelings first and give each other uninterrupted attention several hours a week without competing with the TV, computer, the children.

Find things you can do together. The way it usually works is like this. If there are things that one of you hates and the other one likes, you set those aside as a couple's activity, and instead pick some things you and the other person like or can tolerate. You do those things together. So for example, if she hates Chinese food and likes Mexican food, but you hate Mexican food, you two can go out to eat Italian food, something you both either like or can tolerate.

I go out with my girlfriends every now and then on the weekend. My husband goes to the gym to workout. He's thinking of taking up a new martial art. I participate in some community activites on my own. We do those things separately, but we also make time each week for each other as well.

MovingAhead · May 20, 2013

Sarcasmo...

You have separated your finances right? Cut her off money wise right? Stopped paying her phone bill. locked her out of the Internet etc... right?

Anon Pink · May 20, 2013

To answer the question you actually asked, because I notice you have another thread going in which all the other valid points are currently being discussed...

Time with friends is important, YES! But when building or trying to rebuild a troubled relationship, seeking time with friends may be shooting yourself in the foot.

But the trouble comes when husband and wife have very different ideas of what is fun and what isn't. My H hates to dance or to get dressed up. I LOVE it! He likes music I can't stand. He likes hanging out in dive bars, I like ambiance. He likes down home, I like uptown.

We both like to play sports, we both like the outdoors, we both like the water, although he hates the sun. He likes golf, I like tennis.

Having to reply on each other for recreational needs is almost like boot camp for married couples. It's not going so smoothly for us.

Recreational Companionship

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